One of the things I find great about this country is the simultaneous protection of, and tolerance for - even enthusiasm for, in some areas - all religions as well as a lack of religion, while still recognizing that sometimes, the practice of one's personal religion may end up being visible in public, and thus a part of public life, and that should be protected as well. (Obviously as long as it does no one harm.) This ranges from being allowed to wear a burka or a headscarf to practicing tai chi on the beach, to a public teacher taking a moment to pray in her classroom before her school day. A lot of these things would be banned, for example, in France; and in many countries any religion that isn't the dominant religion is (sometimes brutally) surpressed. A Christian, for example, need only look so far as the brutal repression of Christianity in China to recognize why it is important that the separation of church and state be an officially sanctioned tenet of our public contract.
One the other hand, I like that generally in this country, what one person does in the pursuit of his religion isn't regarded as detracting from another's rights. It's hard to catch a cab in Chicago during the prayer call times - but I don't see that as an assault on my non-muslim faith. Similarly, I also wouldn't be bothered if someone prayed before a meeting. If you follow it, great, if you don't, no harm no foul, in my opinion.
*postscript - I just want to note that as far as my interpretation of Separation of Church and State goes, I agree - no Ten Commandments in the courthouse allowed. It's the Ten Commandments given by God to his chosen people - definitely religious, and definitely applicable to a subset (Jews, Christians, Catholics) of the population rather than everyone governed under our social contract (aka the Constitution).
Oh wow, being out of pocket, and out of real Internet has been a bummer. Let me clarify my earlier statement. Copper, I think we are saying the same thing on the morality issue. I agree that one need not be religious to have morals, but a religious person by definition SHOULD HAVE morals. I never thought ofthe ten comandments the way you guys do because I focus on the ones that deal with society most. The ones that say honor your parents, don't kill, don't steal. Those I consider moral things, and liken them more to just common laws. Heck, it might be nice to have laws posted on the courthouse walls for all to see - like classroom rules.
As for the inclusive prayer thing, I figured it would just use the word god since ALL religions have some sort of god. I guess I just figured that those who were atheist would just ignore the prayer; no one requires you to pray with them, they just ask that you be quiet. Heck, it might even be a good time to head for the concession stand.
Congrats techno!! I wish you the best!
Ugh I can't wait till the new router arrives. It's tough to type with feeling on an iPhone.
So with all being said about seperation of Church and State. What is the general read in regards to Zoning Regulations and Religion?
This even becomes more interesting if it involves asethics of a building in a Historic District. Should the Local Goverment be able to censor a buildings design? Where and when should govenment butt out?
We're definitely not saying the same thing. I'm saying that a religious person is no more or less likely to have morals than a non-religious person. They not only have no monopoly on morals, they have no particular imperative. Morals are a societal thing, which applies equally to all regardless of faith.
I guess I'm the only stick in the mud around here when it comes to prayer as well... when these things happen, I sit quietly becoming more and more annoyed. Usually a person or three glares at me, presumably in an effort to encourage me to bow my head. Public prayer is as much about unity as anything else, it is the act of a community reinforcing shared beliefs, reminding each other of the basis on which they come together. This reading is even reinforced by Donna's story above, it effectively established a message of "We come in peace." The flipside of this is that those who do not share those beliefs are being actively excluded, no matter how many excuses you make.
Techno, sorry to have been too distracted to comment on your news previously. Congratulations.
"What is the general read in regards to Zoning Regulations and Religion?"
That would make a relatively good thread!
In my general experiences, this is a one way road. If you haven't read the religious experience on resume thread, you could read it as somewhat of a loose example.
If you try to be entirely secular about things, you shouldn't discriminate based on labels but actions.
I took the point that no one should list things that violate Title 7 rules regarding Equal Opportunity Employment (not listing things that include race, sex, religion or age).
However, because it was a christian asking about a christian position... people immediately said "Do it anyways, it doesn't matter. You should be proud to work in such a job (as a christian missionary)."
See the irony here? If I was someone in an atheist organization doing some variety of volunteering, most would agree that is something you generally "sweep under the rug." It becomes a very minority-vs.-majority conversation quickly.
That's sort of what happens typically in zoning and planning.
If you try to apply zoning regulations to things like churches, you get arguments that the government is trying to keep the church down. (One specific instance is that churches typically have illegal parking arrangements. No one will enforce these because anyone who does enforce these gets the shit end of the stick).
Many churches will specifically defend their right to not pay for right-of-way improvements (turning lanes, medians, lights) because it is the "government trying to steal more christians' good money." They will, however, frequently call the police to close down roads and direct traffic at the expense of the taxpayer.
However, many churches often will advocate and sue the crap out of local government for exclusionary zoning ordinances against others. The most specific instances generally regard the sale or consumption of alcohol and pornography.
There's a study out there (do not have JSTOR at the moment) about the correlation between churches and DUIs.
In areas where churches have enforced strict rules about the sale of alcohol and operation of bars, there's a drastic increase in the number of DUIs and traffic-related fatalities.
If, at one hand, you argue for more incorporation of bars, nightclubs and liquor stores in an area... you basically get told that you're not respecting the religious and their right to live in alcohol-free communities. If you push the issue, you get blamed for encouraging irresponsible behavior, alcoholism and destroying families.
If you're on the teetotaler end, you have to accept that you've effectively destroyed a part of community and in some cases have halted economic development. You then basically have to lie about the effects of the zoning you've put in place. You've protected a church but have basically ruined everyone else's life.
This is where new urbanism really works its magic is because it is often difficult for an organization to overturn areas where zoning already exists. The church or entity has agreed to said zoning rules when it bought its parcel.
But copper do you honestly believe that when the message is "We gather in peace", which is definitely what the prayer said at my meeting was about, that you're being actively excluded? What about that statement doesn't welcome you? Isn't it the form that you find exclusionary, not the message?
My mother in law, who basically hates all organized religion but calls herself spiritual* doesn't bow her head in public prayers - she raises her face up to the sky. She's doing it both as a rebelliousness against the parts of religion she doesn't like (misogyny, for example) but also as a gesture of participation in the cultural activity.
I'm going to flip into another religious story and hopefully nam you won't be offended by this switch, but it's the story of the Buddhist monks that I've told here before:
One day two traveling monks reached a town and saw a young woman waiting to step out of her sedan chair. There were deep, muddy puddles and she couldn’t step across without getting mud on her silk robes. She impatiently scolded her attendants, who were burdened with heavy packages.
The younger monk walked by the young woman without speaking. But the older monk stopped and picked her up on his back, carrying her across the mud. Not only did she not thank the monk, she shoved him out of her way when he put her down and scurried by him haughtily.
As the two monks continued on their way, the younger monk was brooding. After a long time, he finally spoke out. “That woman was so rude but you picked her up and carried her. And she didn’t even thank you!”
“I set the woman down hours ago,” the older monk responded. “Why are you still carrying her?”
Granted, there is a HUGE difference between a 20 second prayer ("moment of silence" is what most public schools do) and posting the Ten Commandments on a courthouse wall - I agree that's going too far.
*Not an inaccurate description of many former Christians, I'd guess, including (sometimes) myself, except I don't like the word "spiritual" used in that way, because what does it even mean?
Also, just to bring it back to one of my personal parallels: I hate sports. But it's a HUGE part of culture, so I have to deal with the incessant "Go Colts!" chants I heard last January, and the "wear blue!" day at school that essentially required me to purchase a Colts t-shirt for my son (we didn't; we made one at home so no $ went to the franchise), the conversations about last night's game I have to fake my way through or look like a dolt...but I can either be annoyed at it or not let it bother me. When it comes to my tax dollars supporting it, however, I can take a stand and fight against participation (good luck - I'll be paying for that fucking LucasOil stadium monster with my tax dollars until I move out of state). It's the unpredictable social interaction with sports on a day-to-day basis that is just part of living in a society.
I'm fine with religious imagery (even encourage it) despite the fact that I am not religious at all.
The reason I'm fine with it is that I can respect the morality, stories and teachings of said stories. When religious imagery is used for metaphor and simile, it reinforces a sort of cultural identity.
Abstractly, we could consider many religious icons to be inspiration in a nondenominational way:
The crucifix (an actual crucifix with Jesus and all that): Salvation through martyrdom, i.e., ultimate self-sacrifice for the benevolence of all
Mary: deification of mothers that (wo)man can create God, that god is not truly infallible
[Albiet, the worship of Mary is very contentious in christian circles for primarily that reason. That an the notion that the Holy Trinity means that god is "fundamentally dead" until the rapture... BUT WE'LL SAVE MARY WORSHIP FOR ANOTHER TIME.]
Any depiction of the holy trinity: God is not God as God is depicted in the Old Testament.
Various other stories: The Ark, Burning Bush, Moses all of those have fascinating stories and morals that may be appreciated by all. Et Cetera.
But, here in the US we have many depictions of 'religious ideals' from a lot of sources-- the occult, Greco-Roman gods, Assyrians, Babylonians, Cretans, Celtic/Nordic/English/French mysticism and your occasional Hindi/Chinese/Japanese/Native America beliefs.
We even have a lot of invented gods (rather idols)-- there's the obvious like Liberty or Justice. There's regional Gods like Portlandia. There's not so known idols like Madonna of the Trail.
But there's certain things that certainly have a cult-like substance to them-- eagles, various other animals, monuments like the Washington monument and memorials (like Mt. Rushmore).
Idolatry or not-- I think most of things are acceptable. I'm iffy about the commandments because they are certainly not a gesture or metaphor. They are pretty much "HERE IS THE LAW."
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
This should be pointed out repeatedly. YOU SHOULD NOT MAKE ANY IDOLS OTHER THAN OF GOD HIMSELF. Why on Earth (above on or below) would you idolize something that specifically says NOT TO?
donna - I was about to add that most buddhists I know probably wouldn't care about any of this stuff anyway...
an old office recommended nepalese buddhist monks as landscapers on several of their projects, and they were the happiest people I've ever met. although, the head guy was overly touchy-feely. it was funny being on site and these guys would show up in their robes and he'd head right up to the construction manager (usually some burly manly-man) and give him a big bear hug and kiss both cheeks.
I'm so confused because I'm still agreeing with you copper top. I guess I'm just writing it poorly. Sorry.
And to piss more of you off, I just saw "new moon" and it sucked. It was so slow until the big wolf thing, and I just can't get into bella's character. She's always sad and depressed like that dawsons creek chick. Uhg.
Donna, I subscribe to "the medium is the message" to a certain extent. If the message is intended to be "we gather in peace" but expressed in the context of prayer/god, then the resultant message is, to me "we gather in peace, as long as you're with god." I'll drop it now, because I can see I'm clearly outnumbered on this, and only say that I liken it to feminists who read into male-centric language and practices: most people say those things and subscribe to those traditions out of habit and not express buy-in to the origins, but the effect is still rooted in something that has a specific meaning.
donna, i have always loved that story. to me it illustrates the simple fact that sometimes we make things mean way more than they do,..
A lesson I am reminded of every day (especially on those one i dread the thought of going to work).
As for the whole religion issue. it is a difficult one for me because i know so many (in my own family even) of deep faith. Currently i don't have the same though. I have always considered my self spiritual not religious and liked it that way.
Although lately I have been coming around more to the position that I would like at some point to a) have the discipline that seems to so often come along with people of deep faith and b) the sense of commitment to something greater than myself.
Although a la Kurt Vonnegut i do think that on a basic level the world needs more people having a basic commitment to humanism period...
strawbeary, i once made the mistake of writing a similar reply email to a similar email that came from my grandfather... if i remember correctly the email was one of those ones wishing death to obama and i replied to my grandfather (who fought in wwii and then became an episcopalian minister) saying something about how the email was both un-christian and un-american... let's just say that it didn't go over well... i think that my response was very carefully written so as to be non-offensive, and i only sent it directly to him... but it eventually made its way to other family members and caused a big hubbub... particularly coming from the urban, elitist, atheist grandson...
Donna, I love your sports analogy - I feel the same way. Another example - for those who've lived in SoCal - might be the movies, or TV... conversation constantly centers around the movies and if you just don't follow them that much, you get these looks. And god forbid you should ever say "Actually I don't have a TV."
Also, copper, your feminist analogy helps me see better how you feel. I guess I see public religiosity much less frequently than I see implicit misogyny, so I suppose it simply doesn't rile me up as much. But I know what you mean about the implicit misogyny thing.
It's a tough one because to some extent, in the normal course of practicing one's religion, one's going to end up displaying some of it in public, and you shouldn't feel that you have to hide who you are. For example: if you were out at a restaurant with friends, and one of them prayed before eating his/her food, how would that make you feel?
Also, Unicorn Slaughter: See the irony here? If I was someone in an atheist organization doing some variety of volunteering, most would agree that is something you generally "sweep under the rug."
This is patently ridiculous. People volunteer for atheist or non-theist organizations all the time; resumes are littered with it. No one would EVER suggest not putting that on a resume. That's absurd!
That ontop of anything to do with the Democratic party, Feminism (NOW), Campus groups like SDS and CPA, anything to do with protesting war and there's a few other hot groups.
If you want to get a job in Florida really easy, throw on a cross necklace, lie on a resume, list several references to churches/church groups and some other stereotypical hogwash. Also, be sure to talk about "family," "responsibility," and "giving back to your "community."
Your viewpoints may fly in Miami/Boca/Ft Lauderdale, Sarasota or the tiny sliver of Winter Park... but being an outspoken atheist, feminist or Democrat in Florida is career suicide unless you manage to work with people who share similar views.
Being a proud Christian tends to get you further than being a proud atheist.
But, if you do a search around... many things on the web say to not list anything related to religion, sex, sexual orientation, age et cetera.
I just find it amusing that when minorities have to cover things up. It is not that "big of a deal." You tell a hardline christian type they can't announce that they are christian to the world and it is somehow "discrimination."
I don't know. Maybe living in Florida is really starting to get to me.
dude, U.Slaughter, that is just not how it is in the bible belt, or at least not the one i grew up in. Sure, while i found much of my childhood mildly abusive (in my church original sin and the fires of hell were the main course and the dessert), there is not any kind of morality that says charity must be church based. Never happened/s. On other hand, you are right about the importance of religion is public realm. Obama could not be president if not christian.
about prayer at school gathering, donna i am with copper top i would be offended by prayer at my child's school. it is not appropriate, not remotely. i know this is possibly offensive to many, and i apologize in advance, but i really do not want my children to be exposed to christianity at school. even if the kids aren't there, i find it a show of bad taste. i guess part of that is because i am in a shinto and buddhist nation where religion is a personal thing and congregations are for funerals and weddings, if that...
actually we said the lord prayer every morning at school, followed by a rounding chorus of god save the queen and o canada. that ended grade 5 or 6 - a good thing in my mind. could you imagine being subjected to that when you are not christian, and someone simply asked you to not listen? bloody hell but that is hugely un-tactful.
actually what is really cool is the depth of thoughtfulness and intelligence of the comments about this subject here. I have to admit i didn't think it was possible, but here it is. Thread Central is clearly visited by a special group of people. I knew that already, but is so nice to have the proof ;-)
See I'm not bothered by using the term man to refer to men and women collectively. Maybe Im niave or maybe I'm just overly laidback. I just don't get riled up about it. Strangly, I did get pretty anoyed when I was pregnant and all the online literature kept calling Abe a she.
Jump, you're so right. It's nice to have a conversation as volatile as then without it blowing up TC.
Yes, I feel very comfortable stating views, especially ones that are still forming, here on TC because I think we can easily have a civil and enlightening conversation about it.
That said, Florida is batshit crazy, way more so than Texas ;-)
Interestingly, and maybe coincidentally, while I was writing about religion this afternoon I was simultaneously drafting and listening to Julia Sweeney discuss her loss of faith in Catholicism on an old edition of Fresh Air.
So I just watched the season/series finale of 24 and am now limited to only one reason to watch Fox, because that channel is in the words of Donna Sink batshit crazy and biased.
All of this religious tolerance is about finding a public middle ground where we can all co-exist. It comes down to the basic fundamental right that we teach children and it is about sharing. Sharing views, sharing rights to your own opinions, rights to practice your own way, etc. But what often happens more than not is that people don't play well with others, change the rules, and want more than the allotted share.
Something copper said, and it's really struck a chord with me. Because she would be offended if everyone else decided to pray what would be the correct course of action? Ask to leave and really be excluded from the obvious act of community? Pray as if she weren't there? Or perhaps just ask for a few moments of silence... meditative... for those that want to pray can or just clear your head. Copper I agree, and I get upset when people choose to pray out loud... I think it's usually a chance for people to hear their own voices and wow do we have alot of it around here.
This is definitely the most riled up I've been on this particular thread. Maybe the most riled up I've ever been on the 'nect. Hopefully that says something good about my perspective on internet debates... anyway, it's an issue I'm very, very passionate about. And I'm glad that I can share that without people biting my head off.
To clarify, I would've have a problem with a friend or two praying before a meal, spontaneously or as a matter of habit. I would have a problem if they expected me to participate, or if the meal were part of an event put on by a non-religious group and there was a led/called for prayer at the start. It bothers me when religion sneaks into other aspects of life where I have no reason to expect it, like I'm getting ambushed by Jesus or something. Of course I have no problem with individuals outwardly displaying religion through wearing of crosses, burqas, etc (though when you can't see someone's face, the anonymity is a tad discomfiting, but I don't have a problem with the *idea*) or conducting their own private prayers. But there's a big difference between individual expression/practice and group activities. If I wanted to be at a prayer meeting, I would go to church, and as I stay away from churches I think it's a reasonable expectation to never find myself in a prayer meeting.
jump, I was raised to take it even further... this is a very mild view on the issue compared to my father, who genuinely thinks that teaching religion to children should be considered a crime.
SH, I'm oddly not that bothered by male-centric language habits either. I think this is largely because doing the he-or-she, him-or-her thing is so awkward that I sort of accept that it's going to tilt one way or the other. But I know several people who are obviously deeply bothered by it, so I felt it was a good comparison to how I feel about this: most of the country obviously doesn't see the big deal but it really, really gets to me.
here in kentucky it's not uncommon for contractors to begin a construction meeting with a prayer! and they don't hold back on the appeals to jaysus, either!
what's interesting about this particular conversation is this simple, yet obviously overlooked or at least, the least remembered fact; we're all human. short and simple. human. "shoulds" when it comes to human feelings or emotions are problematic. the AIA knows how to exploit this word, and the code of ethics routinely uses "should" and "shall" to define the profession's values pretty well, but how often do we find ourselves either challenged by the "shoulds" or unable to live up to them as well?
praying makes people happy, if they do it freely and not through coercion, conversely not praying because it makes you happy and not because everyone else is doing it, also might make one happy.
i've had difficulty with this issue, and have decided to do what makes me happy in that moment. sometimes i do, and think about things that make me happy, and sometimes i don't and think about things that want to do to make me happy.
what's interesting about this particular conversation is this simple, yet obviously overlooked or at least, the least remembered fact; we're all human. short and simple. human. "shoulds" when it comes to human feelings or emotions are problematic. the AIA knows how to exploit this word, and the code of ethics routinely uses "should" and "shall" to define the profession's values pretty well, but how often do we find ourselves either challenged by the "shoulds" or unable to live up to them as well?
praying makes people happy, if they do it freely and not through coercion, conversely not praying because it makes you happy and not because everyone else is doing it, also might make one happy.
i've had difficulty with this issue, and have decided to do what makes me happy in that moment. sometimes i do, and think about things that make me happy, and sometimes i don't and think about things that want to do to make me happy.
Steven, that sounds like a happy song. I'd love to hear it.
I guess we all have pet peeves.
I love House. I'm glad that others here like it too. I haven't seen the season finale yet since our Internet has been out. I'm worried it won't be as intense as last season's. I haven't caught the end of Gossip Girl yet, ether. Mi guess over the summer we'll just catch up on Top Gear or Rick Steves. Maybe not.
I don't mind using "he" to refer to a generic person - for some reason that doesn't bother me, although I do prefer the more correct "one" which everybody looks at me funny for using -
the "male-centric" language I was referring to comes out in other, much more insidious and therefore more harmful ways. It's not even language so much as cultural stance. All those endless commercials that show nagging wives who obsess about their lazy husbands not cleaning correctly... (not to mention the portrayal of all husbands as bumbling lazy fools)... ugh. It just gets me down.
I agree with beta - I suppose on religion I'm in the live-and-let-live camp. There have been times in my life when I've wanted to privately pray over my own food when out at a restaurant with friends, and have never once done it because I'm so sure I'll receive censure - for something that, to me, is utterly private and I would never breathe a word of it to others. Except now, I guess. But it kind of makes me sad that I have so many friends that tell me how intolerant religious people are and the same people have literally mocked me when we've been out at a show on a Sat night and I've said I need to head home to get to bed so I can go to church in the morning (and admitting this only after having it drawn out of me). I've spent much of my life being pretty anti-religious so I can see both sides - I just wish that in real life people responded this level-headedly to a discussion of religion! And for the record, I would be seriously upset if any of my hypothetical children's teachers said anything to them about God, or prayed in front of them, etcetera. Even if you ARE a believing sort - and even if you happen to be of the same religious persuasion as this same teacher (which is unlikely) - there is no guarantee that they won't spout some inane version of weird beliefs that will fuck your kid's head up. Stick to the subject matter you are paid to teach. And I should note that my mother is a Christian public school teacher and believes in this so adamantly that she gets all riled up over other teachers who mention prayer in schools. She teachers her English students a whole unit on questioning world beliefs and all kinds of stuff. (She's kind of uber-intellectual.) On the flip side, I feel you should be allowed to practice your private beliefs in the room when no children are present.
Ok I think I've exhausted this subject. It's been an interesting one! Makes me happy we have TC. Much better than most of those main page threads about layoffs and poor pay.
SH, I LOVE Rick Steves - although he makes me feel poor. Someone was telling me about Top Gear the other day - sounds awesome, I'm going to try to Netflix it. I wish I got the BBC. :-(
I agree with you beta and manta - live and let live. I don't have a problem with religious people, in fact in some ways I almost envy them, as they seem as a whole like a much happier bunch, more at peace with the world around them. Bring it into the schools though and you've lost all my respect. That is not the correct environment to be doing such a thing... unless that is, to teach the history of it. Then I'm all for it. I remember learning about all the different religions in my ancient and medieval history class. Talk about fascinating. I think it also helped me become more in tune with the similarities that all religions have, not just the big three. Helped me realize when it all boils down to it, we're all pretty much the same.
good morning - just catching up and I want to say thank you to those posting to this debate. It IS nice to read perspectives on a volatile issue such as this and not see the commentary reduced to eff u.
Archtechno - Congrats on your engagement!
My mother is a catholic and a retired public school teacher. Our politics branched apart over a decade ago, and in that time I have not been successful in getting her to understand the complexity of the seperation of church and state. She finds herself in the "what harm can a morning prayer do" camp, and the "this nation was founded on Christian values" team. I have given up on this discussion with her because I realized that where she lives, everyone is white and Christian. So it DOES seem silly to her to tell everyone not to do something that all are comfortable with. I won't get her to appreciate the significance/value/depth of how diverse our nation is while she remains in that bubble.
The growing ideological gaps between societies is a problem as it encourages people to believe their own bullshit - that "everyone" thinks as they do, that they somehow have a hold on what it means to be a "real american".
I asked my mom if the lady on tv with the bindi is less of an American than she is...and that's how the fight started ;)
regarding food and prayer. It doesn't have to be a prayer specifically, but a few years ago a i read something which has stuck with me ever since.
Regardless of faith etc, it is important i believe to give thanks (period) before one eats. To who or what doesn't matter. But just giving thanks. If only for the fact of having something to eat.
Often i just say in my best Jamaican impersonation "Lord ave mercy!"
That being said, i have had to sit through more Christian heavy pre meal prayers with family than i can count.
ditto the sitting at table with prayers thing. also the getting looks. and the lectures and the going to hell et cetera...that stuff is no biggy, just obnoxious reactions bug me. i get the same when i confess to not eating meat. a hard sell when we got family who raise cattle and others working at the hog plant. i think they would prefer it if i were gay ;-)
in japan before meals we say itadakimasu, which is a kind of thanks. i don't like it because it looks like a prayer with the hands together thing (but more like the old greetings of monks meeting on a dirt road), even though it only means "i gonna eat me some food now, thanks for cooking it up". my mom in law always yells at me for not being resepctful, but since she never had her faced slapped for not praying to jesus before eating doesn't know why it bothers me...so i humor her. to be fair, it is a nice non-religious ritual and involves no gods anyone would care to put a name to.
manta i am sorry to hear that you have those problems with prayer and church with friends. intolerance is not good thing for any reason. how sad.
this whole religion discussion is actually kinda timely for me... this weekend i'm going to DC for a pseudo family reunion... the impetus for the reunion is that my uncle is currently going to seminary (following in my grandfather's footsteps, as mentioned above) and will be giving a sermon at his church for the first time... apparently this is a really big deal... i'm really going to see my grandfather since he's getting pretty old and i might not have many more opportunities... anyways, as an atheist, i can't actually remember the last time that i went to church for something other than a wedding or a funeral... it has to have been at least 20 years... should be, um, interesting
Nam you are the greatest... we need to work on your visit home
Funny everyone mentions keeping children away from religion especially at school and it's the one thing we reinforce. Force it on the kids in hope that morality becomes engrained, only to have religion and "Christianity" used as some veil for their own personal derogation when they are older.
Anyway let's get back to the subject of architecture. It's summer and I always feel like it should be a few months of beautiful architectural site seeing, drinking in beautiful gardens, cooking in wonderful landscapes, and love in the sensuous interiors - perhaps I'm blinded by my own architectural obsession.
we've been having an interesting discussion about our kids. i grew up with the whole church/sunday school thing and got thoroughly educated in the christian culture - even went to episcopal school my senior year and took courses in old testament and new testament.
my wife had none of this.
so we've been trying to figure it out with our girls. while we don't want religion ingrained, the religious narratives are cultural touchstones that are important. my wife is hyper-aware that she has missed these things: never knew jacob/esau, cain/abel, job, etc. how do you function well without being immediately plugged in when someone talks about david/goliath or samson/delilah? the answer is (according to her) that you feel left out of a lot of conversations and feel you're missing a lot of critical cultural tools...
we think our girls need this background, just in order to function. but we haven't figured out yet how to mediate this education. we know that a church or sunday school will teach these things as TRUTH, while we regard them merely as allegory. ???
not that there's an answer. it's just something with which we'll grapple situation by situation.
My dad, an athiest, still made me read the bible, for that reason. When Inferno showed up on a school reading list I had to read the Bible before the class got there so that I'd have all the background knowledge. I think that can be a solution: treat it like one of the 'classics' that you believe it's important for your kids to read. As they understand that the Odessey or Lolita or Shakespear aren't true, they'll be inclined to treat the Bible in the same way.
Honestly, Phillip, I know how you feel - considering I've always claimed to "come from" Arizona, which is an association I've becoming more and more embarrassed to make.
But let's talk about a very serious issue: Are architects losing our style card? I had drinks this evening with three other architects in a very trendy bistro and the four of us were practically the most boringly-attired people in the room - and NONE of us had cool glasses, just very standard specs. One member of our party was wearing a salmon golf shirt! And surrounding us in the restaurant - a quite stylish interior, BTW, that was designed by the owner herself with no professional aid - were all people dressed much more snappily than us with MUCH better glasses. Have we lost our sartorial edge? It about made me cry into my bourbon. If we don't have our image, what do we have?!
I'd love to share a few words on my thoughts on religion but I am procrastinating writing two papers. All I can say is that I am still overwhelmed at times with residual Catholic guilt. It's horrible.
Thread Central
One of the things I find great about this country is the simultaneous protection of, and tolerance for - even enthusiasm for, in some areas - all religions as well as a lack of religion, while still recognizing that sometimes, the practice of one's personal religion may end up being visible in public, and thus a part of public life, and that should be protected as well. (Obviously as long as it does no one harm.) This ranges from being allowed to wear a burka or a headscarf to practicing tai chi on the beach, to a public teacher taking a moment to pray in her classroom before her school day. A lot of these things would be banned, for example, in France; and in many countries any religion that isn't the dominant religion is (sometimes brutally) surpressed. A Christian, for example, need only look so far as the brutal repression of Christianity in China to recognize why it is important that the separation of church and state be an officially sanctioned tenet of our public contract.
One the other hand, I like that generally in this country, what one person does in the pursuit of his religion isn't regarded as detracting from another's rights. It's hard to catch a cab in Chicago during the prayer call times - but I don't see that as an assault on my non-muslim faith. Similarly, I also wouldn't be bothered if someone prayed before a meeting. If you follow it, great, if you don't, no harm no foul, in my opinion.
*postscript - I just want to note that as far as my interpretation of Separation of Church and State goes, I agree - no Ten Commandments in the courthouse allowed. It's the Ten Commandments given by God to his chosen people - definitely religious, and definitely applicable to a subset (Jews, Christians, Catholics) of the population rather than everyone governed under our social contract (aka the Constitution).
Oh wow, being out of pocket, and out of real Internet has been a bummer. Let me clarify my earlier statement. Copper, I think we are saying the same thing on the morality issue. I agree that one need not be religious to have morals, but a religious person by definition SHOULD HAVE morals. I never thought ofthe ten comandments the way you guys do because I focus on the ones that deal with society most. The ones that say honor your parents, don't kill, don't steal. Those I consider moral things, and liken them more to just common laws. Heck, it might be nice to have laws posted on the courthouse walls for all to see - like classroom rules.
As for the inclusive prayer thing, I figured it would just use the word god since ALL religions have some sort of god. I guess I just figured that those who were atheist would just ignore the prayer; no one requires you to pray with them, they just ask that you be quiet. Heck, it might even be a good time to head for the concession stand.
Congrats techno!! I wish you the best!
Ugh I can't wait till the new router arrives. It's tough to type with feeling on an iPhone.
So with all being said about seperation of Church and State. What is the general read in regards to Zoning Regulations and Religion?
This even becomes more interesting if it involves asethics of a building in a Historic District. Should the Local Goverment be able to censor a buildings design? Where and when should govenment butt out?
manta,
the L word is correct, luckily we have a few months til the baby shows up, and have been pinching pennies for 2 years just in case this happened.
We're definitely not saying the same thing. I'm saying that a religious person is no more or less likely to have morals than a non-religious person. They not only have no monopoly on morals, they have no particular imperative. Morals are a societal thing, which applies equally to all regardless of faith.
I guess I'm the only stick in the mud around here when it comes to prayer as well... when these things happen, I sit quietly becoming more and more annoyed. Usually a person or three glares at me, presumably in an effort to encourage me to bow my head. Public prayer is as much about unity as anything else, it is the act of a community reinforcing shared beliefs, reminding each other of the basis on which they come together. This reading is even reinforced by Donna's story above, it effectively established a message of "We come in peace." The flipside of this is that those who do not share those beliefs are being actively excluded, no matter how many excuses you make.
Techno, sorry to have been too distracted to comment on your news previously. Congratulations.
Buddhists don't have a god.
"What is the general read in regards to Zoning Regulations and Religion?"
That would make a relatively good thread!
In my general experiences, this is a one way road. If you haven't read the religious experience on resume thread, you could read it as somewhat of a loose example.
If you try to be entirely secular about things, you shouldn't discriminate based on labels but actions.
I took the point that no one should list things that violate Title 7 rules regarding Equal Opportunity Employment (not listing things that include race, sex, religion or age).
However, because it was a christian asking about a christian position... people immediately said "Do it anyways, it doesn't matter. You should be proud to work in such a job (as a christian missionary)."
See the irony here? If I was someone in an atheist organization doing some variety of volunteering, most would agree that is something you generally "sweep under the rug." It becomes a very minority-vs.-majority conversation quickly.
That's sort of what happens typically in zoning and planning.
If you try to apply zoning regulations to things like churches, you get arguments that the government is trying to keep the church down. (One specific instance is that churches typically have illegal parking arrangements. No one will enforce these because anyone who does enforce these gets the shit end of the stick).
Many churches will specifically defend their right to not pay for right-of-way improvements (turning lanes, medians, lights) because it is the "government trying to steal more christians' good money." They will, however, frequently call the police to close down roads and direct traffic at the expense of the taxpayer.
However, many churches often will advocate and sue the crap out of local government for exclusionary zoning ordinances against others. The most specific instances generally regard the sale or consumption of alcohol and pornography.
There's a study out there (do not have JSTOR at the moment) about the correlation between churches and DUIs.
In areas where churches have enforced strict rules about the sale of alcohol and operation of bars, there's a drastic increase in the number of DUIs and traffic-related fatalities.
If, at one hand, you argue for more incorporation of bars, nightclubs and liquor stores in an area... you basically get told that you're not respecting the religious and their right to live in alcohol-free communities. If you push the issue, you get blamed for encouraging irresponsible behavior, alcoholism and destroying families.
If you're on the teetotaler end, you have to accept that you've effectively destroyed a part of community and in some cases have halted economic development. You then basically have to lie about the effects of the zoning you've put in place. You've protected a church but have basically ruined everyone else's life.
This is where new urbanism really works its magic is because it is often difficult for an organization to overturn areas where zoning already exists. The church or entity has agreed to said zoning rules when it bought its parcel.
But copper do you honestly believe that when the message is "We gather in peace", which is definitely what the prayer said at my meeting was about, that you're being actively excluded? What about that statement doesn't welcome you? Isn't it the form that you find exclusionary, not the message?
My mother in law, who basically hates all organized religion but calls herself spiritual* doesn't bow her head in public prayers - she raises her face up to the sky. She's doing it both as a rebelliousness against the parts of religion she doesn't like (misogyny, for example) but also as a gesture of participation in the cultural activity.
I'm going to flip into another religious story and hopefully nam you won't be offended by this switch, but it's the story of the Buddhist monks that I've told here before:
One day two traveling monks reached a town and saw a young woman waiting to step out of her sedan chair. There were deep, muddy puddles and she couldn’t step across without getting mud on her silk robes. She impatiently scolded her attendants, who were burdened with heavy packages.
The younger monk walked by the young woman without speaking. But the older monk stopped and picked her up on his back, carrying her across the mud. Not only did she not thank the monk, she shoved him out of her way when he put her down and scurried by him haughtily.
As the two monks continued on their way, the younger monk was brooding. After a long time, he finally spoke out. “That woman was so rude but you picked her up and carried her. And she didn’t even thank you!”
“I set the woman down hours ago,” the older monk responded. “Why are you still carrying her?”
Granted, there is a HUGE difference between a 20 second prayer ("moment of silence" is what most public schools do) and posting the Ten Commandments on a courthouse wall - I agree that's going too far.
*Not an inaccurate description of many former Christians, I'd guess, including (sometimes) myself, except I don't like the word "spiritual" used in that way, because what does it even mean?
Also, just to bring it back to one of my personal parallels: I hate sports. But it's a HUGE part of culture, so I have to deal with the incessant "Go Colts!" chants I heard last January, and the "wear blue!" day at school that essentially required me to purchase a Colts t-shirt for my son (we didn't; we made one at home so no $ went to the franchise), the conversations about last night's game I have to fake my way through or look like a dolt...but I can either be annoyed at it or not let it bother me. When it comes to my tax dollars supporting it, however, I can take a stand and fight against participation (good luck - I'll be paying for that fucking LucasOil stadium monster with my tax dollars until I move out of state). It's the unpredictable social interaction with sports on a day-to-day basis that is just part of living in a society.
To add to the religious thing outside of zoning:
I'm fine with religious imagery (even encourage it) despite the fact that I am not religious at all.
The reason I'm fine with it is that I can respect the morality, stories and teachings of said stories. When religious imagery is used for metaphor and simile, it reinforces a sort of cultural identity.
Abstractly, we could consider many religious icons to be inspiration in a nondenominational way:
The crucifix (an actual crucifix with Jesus and all that): Salvation through martyrdom, i.e., ultimate self-sacrifice for the benevolence of all
Mary: deification of mothers that (wo)man can create God, that god is not truly infallible
[Albiet, the worship of Mary is very contentious in christian circles for primarily that reason. That an the notion that the Holy Trinity means that god is "fundamentally dead" until the rapture... BUT WE'LL SAVE MARY WORSHIP FOR ANOTHER TIME.]
Any depiction of the holy trinity: God is not God as God is depicted in the Old Testament.
Various other stories: The Ark, Burning Bush, Moses all of those have fascinating stories and morals that may be appreciated by all. Et Cetera.
But, here in the US we have many depictions of 'religious ideals' from a lot of sources-- the occult, Greco-Roman gods, Assyrians, Babylonians, Cretans, Celtic/Nordic/English/French mysticism and your occasional Hindi/Chinese/Japanese/Native America beliefs.
We even have a lot of invented gods (rather idols)-- there's the obvious like Liberty or Justice. There's regional Gods like Portlandia. There's not so known idols like Madonna of the Trail.
But there's certain things that certainly have a cult-like substance to them-- eagles, various other animals, monuments like the Washington monument and memorials (like Mt. Rushmore).
Idolatry or not-- I think most of things are acceptable. I'm iffy about the commandments because they are certainly not a gesture or metaphor. They are pretty much "HERE IS THE LAW."
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
This should be pointed out repeatedly. YOU SHOULD NOT MAKE ANY IDOLS OTHER THAN OF GOD HIMSELF. Why on Earth (above on or below) would you idolize something that specifically says NOT TO?
donna - I was about to add that most buddhists I know probably wouldn't care about any of this stuff anyway...
an old office recommended nepalese buddhist monks as landscapers on several of their projects, and they were the happiest people I've ever met. although, the head guy was overly touchy-feely. it was funny being on site and these guys would show up in their robes and he'd head right up to the construction manager (usually some burly manly-man) and give him a big bear hug and kiss both cheeks.
I'm so confused because I'm still agreeing with you copper top. I guess I'm just writing it poorly. Sorry.
And to piss more of you off, I just saw "new moon" and it sucked. It was so slow until the big wolf thing, and I just can't get into bella's character. She's always sad and depressed like that dawsons creek chick. Uhg.
Donna, I subscribe to "the medium is the message" to a certain extent. If the message is intended to be "we gather in peace" but expressed in the context of prayer/god, then the resultant message is, to me "we gather in peace, as long as you're with god." I'll drop it now, because I can see I'm clearly outnumbered on this, and only say that I liken it to feminists who read into male-centric language and practices: most people say those things and subscribe to those traditions out of habit and not express buy-in to the origins, but the effect is still rooted in something that has a specific meaning.
donna, i have always loved that story. to me it illustrates the simple fact that sometimes we make things mean way more than they do,..
A lesson I am reminded of every day (especially on those one i dread the thought of going to work).
As for the whole religion issue. it is a difficult one for me because i know so many (in my own family even) of deep faith. Currently i don't have the same though. I have always considered my self spiritual not religious and liked it that way.
Although lately I have been coming around more to the position that I would like at some point to a) have the discipline that seems to so often come along with people of deep faith and b) the sense of commitment to something greater than myself.
Although a la Kurt Vonnegut i do think that on a basic level the world needs more people having a basic commitment to humanism period...
strawbeary, i once made the mistake of writing a similar reply email to a similar email that came from my grandfather... if i remember correctly the email was one of those ones wishing death to obama and i replied to my grandfather (who fought in wwii and then became an episcopalian minister) saying something about how the email was both un-christian and un-american... let's just say that it didn't go over well... i think that my response was very carefully written so as to be non-offensive, and i only sent it directly to him... but it eventually made its way to other family members and caused a big hubbub... particularly coming from the urban, elitist, atheist grandson...
Donna, I love your sports analogy - I feel the same way. Another example - for those who've lived in SoCal - might be the movies, or TV... conversation constantly centers around the movies and if you just don't follow them that much, you get these looks. And god forbid you should ever say "Actually I don't have a TV."
Also, copper, your feminist analogy helps me see better how you feel. I guess I see public religiosity much less frequently than I see implicit misogyny, so I suppose it simply doesn't rile me up as much. But I know what you mean about the implicit misogyny thing.
It's a tough one because to some extent, in the normal course of practicing one's religion, one's going to end up displaying some of it in public, and you shouldn't feel that you have to hide who you are. For example: if you were out at a restaurant with friends, and one of them prayed before eating his/her food, how would that make you feel?
Also, Unicorn Slaughter:
See the irony here? If I was someone in an atheist organization doing some variety of volunteering, most would agree that is something you generally "sweep under the rug."
This is patently ridiculous. People volunteer for atheist or non-theist organizations all the time; resumes are littered with it. No one would EVER suggest not putting that on a resume. That's absurd!
Not in the bible belt it isn't.
That ontop of anything to do with the Democratic party, Feminism (NOW), Campus groups like SDS and CPA, anything to do with protesting war and there's a few other hot groups.
If you want to get a job in Florida really easy, throw on a cross necklace, lie on a resume, list several references to churches/church groups and some other stereotypical hogwash. Also, be sure to talk about "family," "responsibility," and "giving back to your "community."
Your viewpoints may fly in Miami/Boca/Ft Lauderdale, Sarasota or the tiny sliver of Winter Park... but being an outspoken atheist, feminist or Democrat in Florida is career suicide unless you manage to work with people who share similar views.
Being a proud Christian tends to get you further than being a proud atheist.
But, if you do a search around... many things on the web say to not list anything related to religion, sex, sexual orientation, age et cetera.
I just find it amusing that when minorities have to cover things up. It is not that "big of a deal." You tell a hardline christian type they can't announce that they are christian to the world and it is somehow "discrimination."
I don't know. Maybe living in Florida is really starting to get to me.
dude, U.Slaughter, that is just not how it is in the bible belt, or at least not the one i grew up in. Sure, while i found much of my childhood mildly abusive (in my church original sin and the fires of hell were the main course and the dessert), there is not any kind of morality that says charity must be church based. Never happened/s. On other hand, you are right about the importance of religion is public realm. Obama could not be president if not christian.
about prayer at school gathering, donna i am with copper top i would be offended by prayer at my child's school. it is not appropriate, not remotely. i know this is possibly offensive to many, and i apologize in advance, but i really do not want my children to be exposed to christianity at school. even if the kids aren't there, i find it a show of bad taste. i guess part of that is because i am in a shinto and buddhist nation where religion is a personal thing and congregations are for funerals and weddings, if that...
actually we said the lord prayer every morning at school, followed by a rounding chorus of god save the queen and o canada. that ended grade 5 or 6 - a good thing in my mind. could you imagine being subjected to that when you are not christian, and someone simply asked you to not listen? bloody hell but that is hugely un-tactful.
actually what is really cool is the depth of thoughtfulness and intelligence of the comments about this subject here. I have to admit i didn't think it was possible, but here it is. Thread Central is clearly visited by a special group of people. I knew that already, but is so nice to have the proof ;-)
See I'm not bothered by using the term man to refer to men and women collectively. Maybe Im niave or maybe I'm just overly laidback. I just don't get riled up about it. Strangly, I did get pretty anoyed when I was pregnant and all the online literature kept calling Abe a she.
Jump, you're so right. It's nice to have a conversation as volatile as then without it blowing up TC.
Yes, I feel very comfortable stating views, especially ones that are still forming, here on TC because I think we can easily have a civil and enlightening conversation about it.
That said, Florida is batshit crazy, way more so than Texas ;-)
unicorn, as a native floridian i have to disagree with you...
that said, i'm sure as hell happy to not be living in florida anymore...
Interestingly, and maybe coincidentally, while I was writing about religion this afternoon I was simultaneously drafting and listening to Julia Sweeney discuss her loss of faith in Catholicism on an old edition of Fresh Air.
So I just watched the season/series finale of 24 and am now limited to only one reason to watch Fox, because that channel is in the words of Donna Sink batshit crazy and biased.
All of this religious tolerance is about finding a public middle ground where we can all co-exist. It comes down to the basic fundamental right that we teach children and it is about sharing. Sharing views, sharing rights to your own opinions, rights to practice your own way, etc. But what often happens more than not is that people don't play well with others, change the rules, and want more than the allotted share.
Something copper said, and it's really struck a chord with me. Because she would be offended if everyone else decided to pray what would be the correct course of action? Ask to leave and really be excluded from the obvious act of community? Pray as if she weren't there? Or perhaps just ask for a few moments of silence... meditative... for those that want to pray can or just clear your head. Copper I agree, and I get upset when people choose to pray out loud... I think it's usually a chance for people to hear their own voices and wow do we have alot of it around here.
ATP:
House is the only reason to watch any tv at all...
This is definitely the most riled up I've been on this particular thread. Maybe the most riled up I've ever been on the 'nect. Hopefully that says something good about my perspective on internet debates... anyway, it's an issue I'm very, very passionate about. And I'm glad that I can share that without people biting my head off.
To clarify, I would've have a problem with a friend or two praying before a meal, spontaneously or as a matter of habit. I would have a problem if they expected me to participate, or if the meal were part of an event put on by a non-religious group and there was a led/called for prayer at the start. It bothers me when religion sneaks into other aspects of life where I have no reason to expect it, like I'm getting ambushed by Jesus or something. Of course I have no problem with individuals outwardly displaying religion through wearing of crosses, burqas, etc (though when you can't see someone's face, the anonymity is a tad discomfiting, but I don't have a problem with the *idea*) or conducting their own private prayers. But there's a big difference between individual expression/practice and group activities. If I wanted to be at a prayer meeting, I would go to church, and as I stay away from churches I think it's a reasonable expectation to never find myself in a prayer meeting.
jump, I was raised to take it even further... this is a very mild view on the issue compared to my father, who genuinely thinks that teaching religion to children should be considered a crime.
SH, I'm oddly not that bothered by male-centric language habits either. I think this is largely because doing the he-or-she, him-or-her thing is so awkward that I sort of accept that it's going to tilt one way or the other. But I know several people who are obviously deeply bothered by it, so I felt it was a good comparison to how I feel about this: most of the country obviously doesn't see the big deal but it really, really gets to me.
ack! I meant to say "I wouldn't have a problem with a friend or two praying..."!
hm, i sympathize with your father copper top. wouldn't go that far but i get it.
here in kentucky it's not uncommon for contractors to begin a construction meeting with a prayer! and they don't hold back on the appeals to jaysus, either!
what's interesting about this particular conversation is this simple, yet obviously overlooked or at least, the least remembered fact; we're all human. short and simple. human. "shoulds" when it comes to human feelings or emotions are problematic. the AIA knows how to exploit this word, and the code of ethics routinely uses "should" and "shall" to define the profession's values pretty well, but how often do we find ourselves either challenged by the "shoulds" or unable to live up to them as well?
praying makes people happy, if they do it freely and not through coercion, conversely not praying because it makes you happy and not because everyone else is doing it, also might make one happy.
i've had difficulty with this issue, and have decided to do what makes me happy in that moment. sometimes i do, and think about things that make me happy, and sometimes i don't and think about things that want to do to make me happy.
what's interesting about this particular conversation is this simple, yet obviously overlooked or at least, the least remembered fact; we're all human. short and simple. human. "shoulds" when it comes to human feelings or emotions are problematic. the AIA knows how to exploit this word, and the code of ethics routinely uses "should" and "shall" to define the profession's values pretty well, but how often do we find ourselves either challenged by the "shoulds" or unable to live up to them as well?
praying makes people happy, if they do it freely and not through coercion, conversely not praying because it makes you happy and not because everyone else is doing it, also might make one happy.
i've had difficulty with this issue, and have decided to do what makes me happy in that moment. sometimes i do, and think about things that make me happy, and sometimes i don't and think about things that want to do to make me happy.
i just listened to the stones version of 'happy' in the car on the way to work and that made me happy.
Steven, that sounds like a happy song. I'd love to hear it.
I guess we all have pet peeves.
I love House. I'm glad that others here like it too. I haven't seen the season finale yet since our Internet has been out. I'm worried it won't be as intense as last season's. I haven't caught the end of Gossip Girl yet, ether. Mi guess over the summer we'll just catch up on Top Gear or Rick Steves. Maybe not.
I don't mind using "he" to refer to a generic person - for some reason that doesn't bother me, although I do prefer the more correct "one" which everybody looks at me funny for using -
the "male-centric" language I was referring to comes out in other, much more insidious and therefore more harmful ways. It's not even language so much as cultural stance. All those endless commercials that show nagging wives who obsess about their lazy husbands not cleaning correctly... (not to mention the portrayal of all husbands as bumbling lazy fools)... ugh. It just gets me down.
I agree with beta - I suppose on religion I'm in the live-and-let-live camp. There have been times in my life when I've wanted to privately pray over my own food when out at a restaurant with friends, and have never once done it because I'm so sure I'll receive censure - for something that, to me, is utterly private and I would never breathe a word of it to others. Except now, I guess. But it kind of makes me sad that I have so many friends that tell me how intolerant religious people are and the same people have literally mocked me when we've been out at a show on a Sat night and I've said I need to head home to get to bed so I can go to church in the morning (and admitting this only after having it drawn out of me). I've spent much of my life being pretty anti-religious so I can see both sides - I just wish that in real life people responded this level-headedly to a discussion of religion! And for the record, I would be seriously upset if any of my hypothetical children's teachers said anything to them about God, or prayed in front of them, etcetera. Even if you ARE a believing sort - and even if you happen to be of the same religious persuasion as this same teacher (which is unlikely) - there is no guarantee that they won't spout some inane version of weird beliefs that will fuck your kid's head up. Stick to the subject matter you are paid to teach. And I should note that my mother is a Christian public school teacher and believes in this so adamantly that she gets all riled up over other teachers who mention prayer in schools. She teachers her English students a whole unit on questioning world beliefs and all kinds of stuff. (She's kind of uber-intellectual.) On the flip side, I feel you should be allowed to practice your private beliefs in the room when no children are present.
Ok I think I've exhausted this subject. It's been an interesting one! Makes me happy we have TC. Much better than most of those main page threads about layoffs and poor pay.
SH, I LOVE Rick Steves - although he makes me feel poor. Someone was telling me about Top Gear the other day - sounds awesome, I'm going to try to Netflix it. I wish I got the BBC. :-(
I agree with you beta and manta - live and let live. I don't have a problem with religious people, in fact in some ways I almost envy them, as they seem as a whole like a much happier bunch, more at peace with the world around them. Bring it into the schools though and you've lost all my respect. That is not the correct environment to be doing such a thing... unless that is, to teach the history of it. Then I'm all for it. I remember learning about all the different religions in my ancient and medieval history class. Talk about fascinating. I think it also helped me become more in tune with the similarities that all religions have, not just the big three. Helped me realize when it all boils down to it, we're all pretty much the same.
good morning - just catching up and I want to say thank you to those posting to this debate. It IS nice to read perspectives on a volatile issue such as this and not see the commentary reduced to eff u.
Archtechno - Congrats on your engagement!
My mother is a catholic and a retired public school teacher. Our politics branched apart over a decade ago, and in that time I have not been successful in getting her to understand the complexity of the seperation of church and state. She finds herself in the "what harm can a morning prayer do" camp, and the "this nation was founded on Christian values" team. I have given up on this discussion with her because I realized that where she lives, everyone is white and Christian. So it DOES seem silly to her to tell everyone not to do something that all are comfortable with. I won't get her to appreciate the significance/value/depth of how diverse our nation is while she remains in that bubble.
The growing ideological gaps between societies is a problem as it encourages people to believe their own bullshit - that "everyone" thinks as they do, that they somehow have a hold on what it means to be a "real american".
I asked my mom if the lady on tv with the bindi is less of an American than she is...and that's how the fight started ;)
hi all,
regarding food and prayer. It doesn't have to be a prayer specifically, but a few years ago a i read something which has stuck with me ever since.
Regardless of faith etc, it is important i believe to give thanks (period) before one eats. To who or what doesn't matter. But just giving thanks. If only for the fact of having something to eat.
Often i just say in my best Jamaican impersonation "Lord ave mercy!"
That being said, i have had to sit through more Christian heavy pre meal prayers with family than i can count.
ditto the sitting at table with prayers thing. also the getting looks. and the lectures and the going to hell et cetera...that stuff is no biggy, just obnoxious reactions bug me. i get the same when i confess to not eating meat. a hard sell when we got family who raise cattle and others working at the hog plant. i think they would prefer it if i were gay ;-)
in japan before meals we say itadakimasu, which is a kind of thanks. i don't like it because it looks like a prayer with the hands together thing (but more like the old greetings of monks meeting on a dirt road), even though it only means "i gonna eat me some food now, thanks for cooking it up". my mom in law always yells at me for not being resepctful, but since she never had her faced slapped for not praying to jesus before eating doesn't know why it bothers me...so i humor her. to be fair, it is a nice non-religious ritual and involves no gods anyone would care to put a name to.
manta i am sorry to hear that you have those problems with prayer and church with friends. intolerance is not good thing for any reason. how sad.
Jump, where is your family from?
this whole religion discussion is actually kinda timely for me... this weekend i'm going to DC for a pseudo family reunion... the impetus for the reunion is that my uncle is currently going to seminary (following in my grandfather's footsteps, as mentioned above) and will be giving a sermon at his church for the first time... apparently this is a really big deal... i'm really going to see my grandfather since he's getting pretty old and i might not have many more opportunities... anyways, as an atheist, i can't actually remember the last time that i went to church for something other than a wedding or a funeral... it has to have been at least 20 years... should be, um, interesting
it has certainly made me think. very cool.
have fun philip.
Nam you are the greatest... we need to work on your visit home
Funny everyone mentions keeping children away from religion especially at school and it's the one thing we reinforce. Force it on the kids in hope that morality becomes engrained, only to have religion and "Christianity" used as some veil for their own personal derogation when they are older.
Anyway let's get back to the subject of architecture. It's summer and I always feel like it should be a few months of beautiful architectural site seeing, drinking in beautiful gardens, cooking in wonderful landscapes, and love in the sensuous interiors - perhaps I'm blinded by my own architectural obsession.
we've been having an interesting discussion about our kids. i grew up with the whole church/sunday school thing and got thoroughly educated in the christian culture - even went to episcopal school my senior year and took courses in old testament and new testament.
my wife had none of this.
so we've been trying to figure it out with our girls. while we don't want religion ingrained, the religious narratives are cultural touchstones that are important. my wife is hyper-aware that she has missed these things: never knew jacob/esau, cain/abel, job, etc. how do you function well without being immediately plugged in when someone talks about david/goliath or samson/delilah? the answer is (according to her) that you feel left out of a lot of conversations and feel you're missing a lot of critical cultural tools...
we think our girls need this background, just in order to function. but we haven't figured out yet how to mediate this education. we know that a church or sunday school will teach these things as TRUTH, while we regard them merely as allegory. ???
not that there's an answer. it's just something with which we'll grapple situation by situation.
My dad, an athiest, still made me read the bible, for that reason. When Inferno showed up on a school reading list I had to read the Bible before the class got there so that I'd have all the background knowledge. I think that can be a solution: treat it like one of the 'classics' that you believe it's important for your kids to read. As they understand that the Odessey or Lolita or Shakespear aren't true, they'll be inclined to treat the Bible in the same way.
ok, so maybe i'll have to rescind my defense of my home state of florida...
Florida high school teachers toss holy water on atheist colleague
Honestly, Phillip, I know how you feel - considering I've always claimed to "come from" Arizona, which is an association I've becoming more and more embarrassed to make.
But let's talk about a very serious issue: Are architects losing our style card? I had drinks this evening with three other architects in a very trendy bistro and the four of us were practically the most boringly-attired people in the room - and NONE of us had cool glasses, just very standard specs. One member of our party was wearing a salmon golf shirt! And surrounding us in the restaurant - a quite stylish interior, BTW, that was designed by the owner herself with no professional aid - were all people dressed much more snappily than us with MUCH better glasses. Have we lost our sartorial edge? It about made me cry into my bourbon. If we don't have our image, what do we have?!
Lord-a-mercy, it's a sad state of affairs.
well, bourbon, obviously.
Bourbon is actually part of the image, I guess, so at least I have that.
Congrats, techno! She's a lucky lady.
I'd love to share a few words on my thoughts on religion but I am procrastinating writing two papers. All I can say is that I am still overwhelmed at times with residual Catholic guilt. It's horrible.
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