you probably know this as well as i do, lb, but (we've found) it never hurts to tell them what goes into the fee. schematic design = minimum x hours, dd = minimum x hours, cds = minimum x hours, and construction oversight = minimum x hours. once they see what it takes, the fee usually makes more sense to our clients and becomes more 'afford'-able.
gesamptkunstwerk - do you also spec fabric for the kids' sunday outfits? do you hand-blow each lightbulb? do the deliverables include a book of permissible hair-styles? what about the pantry? does your spec include requirements that it always looks like a page from the arclinea catalog (client is required to keep 50 lemons on counter at all times - permissible lemons to include: villafranca, or lisbon. Lemons shall be of peak freshness and subject to approval by architect).
Very funny, toaster - that's a little more gesampt than our typical kunstwerk (but I know those Bauhaus guys did have such requirements)!
Sarah, just keep telling him it's not allowed - spit only happens in the bathroom. He'll get it eventually, Angus did. Now he's moved on to comic farting - oh joy.
Nam - I'm not an architect, I'm an interior designer, sans my NCIDQ. I interned one summer for a residential firm and at that point I decided it wasn't my cup o' tea, but now that I'm only doing CD work my brain is getting kinda bored. Low and behold this opportunity came up so we'll see what happens. Cross your fingers folks, I meet with her tomorrow and these past couple of days I've been feeling under the weather. It's hard to be creatvie when you're sick
melt,
I probably learned that at some point. My apologies... i have actually considered creating a file listing all archinecters relevant info to help me remember. At least until I meet a few in person
LB - hmmm... maybe... I was more thinking if Owen Wilson was an architect, he'd have us all wear jumpsuits and wearing little hats or something. and everything would be sea-foam.
personally- I think if there were an official architect's uniform (only obtained upon licensure, of course), it should be a jumpsuit. that way people can tell that architects are both simultaneously from the future and the past.
Hmmmm... jumpsuits. I would be totally down for that I think. Imagine how easy it would be getting ready for work if we wore jumpsuits. I betcha they're pretty comfortable as well, esp. during the winter.
2%? What could they possibly be thinking? I'm sure they didn't have the ability to afford a 700K house by people undervaluing THEIR work. Maybe just limit the scope of your work? 2% should buy some pretty pictures since that is probably what they think architects do anyway.
tubleweed, I'm fascinated already. I got to work with my hands yesterday (simple stuff really, helping my friends out at their sushi restaurant), and it was very satisfying. I would imagine your line of work would involve even more hands-on stuff. I'd like to think I'm much better with my hands than anything else, and I'd love to have a career in it (hence my re-newed interest in ceramics).
i think jumpsuits would add a nice touch to the architecture 5cents guys concept. an emergency architecture unit? sprinting through the city... fighting strip malls, eifs... educating the public with calculated archi-ambushes. spontaneous pavilions, thrust upon the public... the sporty blue clad figures stand atop the work with fists on hips... what's that, up there... the 'nect signal!?... and off they go to save some other poor unfortunate souls from contractor led design build...
Do I know anyone who has "commercial and industrial energy-efficiency experience in consulting engineering, energy services, or utility programs"? Do YOU know anyone like that? I got an email from a recruiter looking for these types of people. Give me a shout if you know anyone like this, especially if they are in Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan, or Illinois.
My favorite thing about jumpsuits is that we need a new "thing" to identify us since every lawyer and academic on the planet has co-opted our cool glasses. Architects in jumpsuits will be the new iconic image:
firmness: they'll be perfectly tailored, of course utility: what's more utilitarian than a jumpsuit? appropriate in cold or hot weather, for office work or site visits delight: the sexy question: what do you have on underneath?
So in a few decades, when everyone else is wearing our cool jumpsuits, we'd be able to move on to something else - back to drafting coats, perhaps? What do you have on under that drafting coat, Brad?
LB - Do you plan on telling the client that you won't do 2% but are willing to drop your fee slightly or do you plan on politely telling them that it might not be a fit between you two?
I think your potential client's actions are quite indicative of the rest of your (possible) working relationship if he/she continues to drastically undermine your value.
n_, we're telling them it's not a good fit. We had already dropped our fee slightly for them, and you're right: they want ten miles for every inch.
I just gave my ProPractice students a talk last week about the importance of interviewing a client when they are interviewing you. If it looks like the project might be a train wreck, you don't take it on in the first place.
Tumbles - I think you are a badass for ditching architecture and moving on to cheese.
Side story related to LB's fee: I remember our office really, really wanted to get win a $140 million project. Our fee was 2.25% for the $140 million project. We won the contract (I'm sure the fact that we were 6% lower than our competition's fee). We ran out of fee approximately three weeks into CDs. After that, a few of the partners in the firm would walk over the project team (8 of us total, 5 of which were interns) and jokingly say comments like 'Work faster, guys. You're charging us now for every hour you spend.' or 'The more you spend working on these drawings, the less profit sharing you'll make this year.' The later it got into the project, the more annoying these comments became because we would work 80-90 hour weeks trying to finish these CDs before deadline. Finally, CDs went out. CA was a mess and our firm ended up losing approximately $4 million on the project.
See? See? Those stories happen all the time. You just can't make a profit off too-low percentages, and you end up using the initial payments from the next job to pay for the end of the current project, which sets the cycle up all over again. It's ridiculous. At the fee this guy wanted we'd be making less than $1,000/month on his project - 8 bucks an hour if that's the only thing we were working on, which it wouldn't be, but at that level clients expect the kind of personal service you can only give if you DO only work on their project!
It's a dumb profession sometimes. A cool jumpsuit would sure make it a lot easier to handle. ;-)
I seem to remember something about taking several jobs for next to nothing. As low as 1%, and not on large projects either. I tuned into this about 24 months before we shut down the office. :) I wonder if the events are related in any way? lol. We had several simultaneous downward spirals happening though, that was just one of them. Oh well, that is a distant memory now.
Sarah, you might be OK with the website, at least until you get bigger, then have a lawyer help you redefine things.
postal, that is one attractive and nuanced jumpsuit, but I was thinking more on the coveralls side...I have these little love handles, you see, and that stretchy suit wouldn't look so...considered, let's say, on my bod.
I have come to the conclusion that I will have an fee upcharge for any wood framed stairs, decks or handicapp ramps. It is not easy to do a carpenter friendly exterior stair which has some kick! Then there is always the question of pier footings or continuous footing with foundation wall. I have come to the conclusion the pier footings are most of the time a problem, cause it is hard to measure, hard to hold the form in place and yikes they do lift and fall if there not way below the frost line. These are the things I be explaining to my client who is in Florida while I suffer thru another New England Winter.
Oh, by the way what kind of percentage fee should I ask for on a institutional project in the 2-3 million dollar range. Anyone have a good answer?
Can I get a show of hands on the following: in which areas of the country is the use of wood-frame construction for low-rise multi-family housing commonplace? I'm talking like 3-5 stories. Just curious.
Em, we have a 3-5 story apartment/condo project finishing up in downtown Naptown right now - all wood construction. Notable: about a year ago, while framed and partially sheathed, it went up in a spectacular blaze of mischievous arson, and I think it was rebuilt in metal studs. There was massive speculation when they got their permit that wood studs was a curious idea for such a large project, but it's allowed by code.
snook, how long will this $2-3mil project take, and will you do it on your own or with a hire or two?
well snook since I've just taken a break from writing a job proposal for an institution project far less than the 2-3 million where we had to charge 7.5% to fit within the government cap I'll be no use what'so'ever.
On another note I just the pictures from the Libertyretromelting and it made me smile. I do like archinect mash-ups and meet ups. Nam I'm still holding out to meet you next and then maybe Manatary once the weather warms up.
I'm not sure if this is commonplace is other parts of the US... but, there is a law in Florida that requires elevators for buildings over 3 stories.
Although this is technically like units per floor... there have been some interesting mixes of two story units per floor (i guess that technically makes it a 6 story but 3 story building?)
Anyways, there are whole areas in Florida of 18-30 building complexes of 3 story high apartment buildings. And we're talking 24 units per building.
I forget the name of the apartment complex but it is in Central Florida some place. It is 2.5 miles long, 11,000+ units, 500+ buildings and houses around 50,000 people.
Nice question, LB.
I'd personally write up some sort of a contract and charge a higher rate for billing (maybe 5%). I'd set aside a portion of that money and then log my hours very carefully. That way if you bring on extra people or hire a consultant, you won't be over budget.
Once you have all your hours figured out, multiply hours by your regular billing rate and divide it from that sum. Then return the rest of the money to the client.
it was the first project that i was ever involved in the determination of the fee... my bosses were letting me get more involved in the operations of the firm and they had me take the first whack at developing a fee for a project that i was going to manage... i came up with a number that i thought was reasonable for both the client and the amount of time that we would spend on it and then my bosses balked at the number before even presenting it to the client... i forget the actual numbers but the number that went into the first fee proposal was something like a 1/3 of what i determined that it should be... i was only there through the design phase before leaving for another job, but the fee was gone by the time i left... they lost their ass on that project... to some degree i felt vindicated...
Thanks for representing, folks! It's pretty commonplace in Southern California, too. It's my understanding - although I've never been part of a design team start to finish on a project in a high seismic zone - that wood does particularly well in earthquakes, because it's flexible but not brittle. In LA, multi-family projects were allowed to be up to 5 stories "plus a mezzanine" in wood construction. Now I'm trying to gauge Oregon and it seems like they use it up here too.
What's interesting, now that I'm thinking about it, is that wood may be the closest thing the U.S. has to a "national building material". Use of wood is basically unheard of in places like India, right? Because of the prevalence of masonry construction...?
snook... back in the days when i was a capital improvements project manager for a municipal gov't i did several projects in the $2-3M range and the architect's fee was usually right around 7-9%... but it always depends on the type of project... obviously a $2M empty warehouse is going to have a lower fee than a $2M community center...
emily - see if you can find an article from perspecta - back in the late 80s, i think - by thomas fisher called 'an american culture of construction' (or something like that). a lot of it about wood construction and why it's such an appropriate american method. i think you'll like.
Emily I think the prevalence of masonry construction in say a place like India or even Chile also has alot to do with the fact that wood is their primary fuel source. In the Caribbean the reasoning has to do with hurricanes. But I agree for someone looking on from the outside it seems that most of the US' domestic architecture is constructed in timber. And whilst it works seismically other construction methods are more favourable for wind loading.
And that concludes the "more you know" segment of thread central good night!
That Fisher article is one of my favorite bits of architecture writing ever - he makes the parallel between wood stud construction and our Democratic society: one vote equals one stud, and the majority working together is how the whole system is able to stand, with much less chance of catastrophic failure than in systems in which all the power is vested in a few big members. Just lovely.
Reading is not natural, and neither are you! I attended a lecture and discussion group last night provided by the local chapter of the International Dyslexia Association. Did you know as many as 1 out of 5 persons is dyslexic? Did you know that such individuals tend to excell in things like oral communication, and therefore make great business owners and entrepreneurs?
We build 3-4 story multifamily structures in wood in CO. Can't think of any that are 5 stories. Is that allowed?
Thread Central
you probably know this as well as i do, lb, but (we've found) it never hurts to tell them what goes into the fee. schematic design = minimum x hours, dd = minimum x hours, cds = minimum x hours, and construction oversight = minimum x hours. once they see what it takes, the fee usually makes more sense to our clients and becomes more 'afford'-able.
2% is ridiculous.
gesamptkunstwerk - do you also spec fabric for the kids' sunday outfits? do you hand-blow each lightbulb? do the deliverables include a book of permissible hair-styles? what about the pantry? does your spec include requirements that it always looks like a page from the arclinea catalog (client is required to keep 50 lemons on counter at all times - permissible lemons to include: villafranca, or lisbon. Lemons shall be of peak freshness and subject to approval by architect).
For all you parents out there, any tips t get a two year old to stop spitting all the time? It's just not a socially accepted practice. Help.
Very funny, toaster - that's a little more gesampt than our typical kunstwerk (but I know those Bauhaus guys did have such requirements)!
Sarah, just keep telling him it's not allowed - spit only happens in the bathroom. He'll get it eventually, Angus did. Now he's moved on to comic farting - oh joy.
so not even close to an owen wilson movie? I'm disappointed.
Nam - I'm not an architect, I'm an interior designer, sans my NCIDQ. I interned one summer for a residential firm and at that point I decided it wasn't my cup o' tea, but now that I'm only doing CD work my brain is getting kinda bored. Low and behold this opportunity came up so we'll see what happens. Cross your fingers folks, I meet with her tomorrow and these past couple of days I've been feeling under the weather. It's hard to be creatvie when you're sick
Anyway, better run.
melt,
I probably learned that at some point. My apologies... i have actually considered creating a file listing all archinecters relevant info to help me remember. At least until I meet a few in person
still sounds like a great opportunity.
Wait, toaster, now I'm confused. Did Owen say "gesamptkunstwerk" when describing Bob's house in Bottle Rocket?
I just locked myself in the bathroom. On purpose. I don't like my two year old. He's terrble!
He is being very pateint with me, although he just pushed something under the door that he knows he shouldn't have.
Toaster, that is funny.
Tumbles, I will check it out soon. Just after I corral my kid.
LB - hmmm... maybe... I was more thinking if Owen Wilson was an architect, he'd have us all wear jumpsuits and wearing little hats or something. and everything would be sea-foam.
personally- I think if there were an official architect's uniform (only obtained upon licensure, of course), it should be a jumpsuit. that way people can tell that architects are both simultaneously from the future and the past.
Definitely a jumpsuit. In a Mao dark blue. I'd wear one every day.
Hmmmm... jumpsuits. I would be totally down for that I think. Imagine how easy it would be getting ready for work if we wore jumpsuits. I betcha they're pretty comfortable as well, esp. during the winter.
Tumbles, I just added your blog to my links. Good luck. I have tons of questions. Guess I should ask there.
2%? What could they possibly be thinking? I'm sure they didn't have the ability to afford a 700K house by people undervaluing THEIR work. Maybe just limit the scope of your work? 2% should buy some pretty pictures since that is probably what they think architects do anyway.
tubleweed, I'm fascinated already. I got to work with my hands yesterday (simple stuff really, helping my friends out at their sushi restaurant), and it was very satisfying. I would imagine your line of work would involve even more hands-on stuff. I'd like to think I'm much better with my hands than anything else, and I'd love to have a career in it (hence my re-newed interest in ceramics).
i think jumpsuits would add a nice touch to the architecture 5cents guys concept. an emergency architecture unit? sprinting through the city... fighting strip malls, eifs... educating the public with calculated archi-ambushes. spontaneous pavilions, thrust upon the public... the sporty blue clad figures stand atop the work with fists on hips... what's that, up there... the 'nect signal!?... and off they go to save some other poor unfortunate souls from contractor led design build...
Do I know anyone who has "commercial and industrial energy-efficiency experience in consulting engineering, energy services, or utility programs"? Do YOU know anyone like that? I got an email from a recruiter looking for these types of people. Give me a shout if you know anyone like this, especially if they are in Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan, or Illinois.
Thanks! :o)
Awesome, postal.
My favorite thing about jumpsuits is that we need a new "thing" to identify us since every lawyer and academic on the planet has co-opted our cool glasses. Architects in jumpsuits will be the new iconic image:
firmness: they'll be perfectly tailored, of course
utility: what's more utilitarian than a jumpsuit? appropriate in cold or hot weather, for office work or site visits
delight: the sexy question: what do you have on underneath?
So in a few decades, when everyone else is wearing our cool jumpsuits, we'd be able to move on to something else - back to drafting coats, perhaps? What do you have on under that drafting coat, Brad?
postal - and something like the A-team van - except it would probably be the dymaxion, or the corbu car.
LB - Do you plan on telling the client that you won't do 2% but are willing to drop your fee slightly or do you plan on politely telling them that it might not be a fit between you two?
I think your potential client's actions are quite indicative of the rest of your (possible) working relationship if he/she continues to drastically undermine your value.
n_, we're telling them it's not a good fit. We had already dropped our fee slightly for them, and you're right: they want ten miles for every inch.
I just gave my ProPractice students a talk last week about the importance of interviewing a client when they are interviewing you. If it looks like the project might be a train wreck, you don't take it on in the first place.
Tumbles - I think you are a badass for ditching architecture and moving on to cheese.
Side story related to LB's fee: I remember our office really, really wanted to get win a $140 million project. Our fee was 2.25% for the $140 million project. We won the contract (I'm sure the fact that we were 6% lower than our competition's fee). We ran out of fee approximately three weeks into CDs. After that, a few of the partners in the firm would walk over the project team (8 of us total, 5 of which were interns) and jokingly say comments like 'Work faster, guys. You're charging us now for every hour you spend.' or 'The more you spend working on these drawings, the less profit sharing you'll make this year.' The later it got into the project, the more annoying these comments became because we would work 80-90 hour weeks trying to finish these CDs before deadline. Finally, CDs went out. CA was a mess and our firm ended up losing approximately $4 million on the project.
See? See? Those stories happen all the time. You just can't make a profit off too-low percentages, and you end up using the initial payments from the next job to pay for the end of the current project, which sets the cycle up all over again. It's ridiculous. At the fee this guy wanted we'd be making less than $1,000/month on his project - 8 bucks an hour if that's the only thing we were working on, which it wouldn't be, but at that level clients expect the kind of personal service you can only give if you DO only work on their project!
It's a dumb profession sometimes. A cool jumpsuit would sure make it a lot easier to handle. ;-)
I seem to remember something about taking several jobs for next to nothing. As low as 1%, and not on large projects either. I tuned into this about 24 months before we shut down the office. :) I wonder if the events are related in any way? lol. We had several simultaneous downward spirals happening though, that was just one of them. Oh well, that is a distant memory now.
BEGONE FOUL PITCH POCKETS!
...so do we have any super villains?
^ Hilarious.
Maybe those super cool blue jumpsuit guys can save LB and her cheap clients.
I need a super hero to convince my business partners to use a lawyer to set up our business and not a cheap website.
Tumbles, if I ever take a vacay to CA, can I come milk a goat and make some cheese? I'll bring some wine.
Sarah, you might be OK with the website, at least until you get bigger, then have a lawyer help you redefine things.
postal, that is one attractive and nuanced jumpsuit, but I was thinking more on the coveralls side...I have these little love handles, you see, and that stretchy suit wouldn't look so...considered, let's say, on my bod.
sarah, I must have missed something! what business?
just asking for us to be marginalized further -
I'm not wearing a jumpsuit.
I always liked how coveralls had a two way zipper. Those men were really thinking!
Tumbles, I am one who will totally take you up on the offer. Just so you know.
And LB, maybe the tight suits are like spanks? Though I cant imagine theyre easy to get into.
I have come to the conclusion that I will have an fee upcharge for any wood framed stairs, decks or handicapp ramps. It is not easy to do a carpenter friendly exterior stair which has some kick! Then there is always the question of pier footings or continuous footing with foundation wall. I have come to the conclusion the pier footings are most of the time a problem, cause it is hard to measure, hard to hold the form in place and yikes they do lift and fall if there not way below the frost line. These are the things I be explaining to my client who is in Florida while I suffer thru another New England Winter.
Oh, by the way what kind of percentage fee should I ask for on a institutional project in the 2-3 million dollar range. Anyone have a good answer?
on another thought: Circus and Earthquake
on another thought: Circus and Earthquake
Quick question:
Can I get a show of hands on the following: in which areas of the country is the use of wood-frame construction for low-rise multi-family housing commonplace? I'm talking like 3-5 stories. Just curious.
Wow, snook. That's crazy. Including the random pineapple in the lower left-hand corner of the photo.
Em, we have a 3-5 story apartment/condo project finishing up in downtown Naptown right now - all wood construction. Notable: about a year ago, while framed and partially sheathed, it went up in a spectacular blaze of mischievous arson, and I think it was rebuilt in metal studs. There was massive speculation when they got their permit that wood studs was a curious idea for such a large project, but it's allowed by code.
snook, how long will this $2-3mil project take, and will you do it on your own or with a hire or two?
well snook since I've just taken a break from writing a job proposal for an institution project far less than the 2-3 million where we had to charge 7.5% to fit within the government cap I'll be no use what'so'ever.
On another note I just the pictures from the Libertyretromelting and it made me smile. I do like archinect mash-ups and meet ups. Nam I'm still holding out to meet you next and then maybe Manatary once the weather warms up.
I've seen wood-frame construction in low-rise mult-family construction in the Dirty South. Nashville, represent.
Emily, almost half of Florida.
I'm not sure if this is commonplace is other parts of the US... but, there is a law in Florida that requires elevators for buildings over 3 stories.
Although this is technically like units per floor... there have been some interesting mixes of two story units per floor (i guess that technically makes it a 6 story but 3 story building?)
Anyways, there are whole areas in Florida of 18-30 building complexes of 3 story high apartment buildings. And we're talking 24 units per building.
I forget the name of the apartment complex but it is in Central Florida some place. It is 2.5 miles long, 11,000+ units, 500+ buildings and houses around 50,000 people.
Nice question, LB.
I'd personally write up some sort of a contract and charge a higher rate for billing (maybe 5%). I'd set aside a portion of that money and then log my hours very carefully. That way if you bring on extra people or hire a consultant, you won't be over budget.
Once you have all your hours figured out, multiply hours by your regular billing rate and divide it from that sum. Then return the rest of the money to the client.
emily, i was going to say what montagneux said. but given my non-professional status would have been more of a layman's take on the question.
But yeah i feel like i see them here all the time for student apartments etc.
Archi re: the meetup. Me too.
nite all/
Oh man I'm such a sucker for well-handled brick. This is beautiful.
i have a similar fee story to n_'s...
it was the first project that i was ever involved in the determination of the fee... my bosses were letting me get more involved in the operations of the firm and they had me take the first whack at developing a fee for a project that i was going to manage... i came up with a number that i thought was reasonable for both the client and the amount of time that we would spend on it and then my bosses balked at the number before even presenting it to the client... i forget the actual numbers but the number that went into the first fee proposal was something like a 1/3 of what i determined that it should be... i was only there through the design phase before leaving for another job, but the fee was gone by the time i left... they lost their ass on that project... to some degree i felt vindicated...
Thanks for representing, folks! It's pretty commonplace in Southern California, too. It's my understanding - although I've never been part of a design team start to finish on a project in a high seismic zone - that wood does particularly well in earthquakes, because it's flexible but not brittle. In LA, multi-family projects were allowed to be up to 5 stories "plus a mezzanine" in wood construction. Now I'm trying to gauge Oregon and it seems like they use it up here too.
What's interesting, now that I'm thinking about it, is that wood may be the closest thing the U.S. has to a "national building material". Use of wood is basically unheard of in places like India, right? Because of the prevalence of masonry construction...?
I do love materials.
Night all.
snook... back in the days when i was a capital improvements project manager for a municipal gov't i did several projects in the $2-3M range and the architect's fee was usually right around 7-9%... but it always depends on the type of project... obviously a $2M empty warehouse is going to have a lower fee than a $2M community center...
emily - see if you can find an article from perspecta - back in the late 80s, i think - by thomas fisher called 'an american culture of construction' (or something like that). a lot of it about wood construction and why it's such an appropriate american method. i think you'll like.
Emily I think the prevalence of masonry construction in say a place like India or even Chile also has alot to do with the fact that wood is their primary fuel source. In the Caribbean the reasoning has to do with hurricanes. But I agree for someone looking on from the outside it seems that most of the US' domestic architecture is constructed in timber. And whilst it works seismically other construction methods are more favourable for wind loading.
And that concludes the "more you know" segment of thread central good night!
That Fisher article is one of my favorite bits of architecture writing ever - he makes the parallel between wood stud construction and our Democratic society: one vote equals one stud, and the majority working together is how the whole system is able to stand, with much less chance of catastrophic failure than in systems in which all the power is vested in a few big members. Just lovely.
Reading is not natural, and neither are you! I attended a lecture and discussion group last night provided by the local chapter of the International Dyslexia Association. Did you know as many as 1 out of 5 persons is dyslexic? Did you know that such individuals tend to excell in things like oral communication, and therefore make great business owners and entrepreneurs?
We build 3-4 story multifamily structures in wood in CO. Can't think of any that are 5 stories. Is that allowed?
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