the whole swiss minaret issue is just bizarre to me. the swiss decide (via an open, democratic process) that they don't want any more minarets on their landscape...and then people (many of whom are probably atheists & living six timezones away) take up the cause of a religious minority. and because they're architects they propose to build an architecture (a minaret) without building an architecture (a minaret). how strange. you'd think architects could find more meaningful work to do within their own communities...but then again, maybe things really are that bad.
Also Sarah, I was thinking, are you in/near Dallas? My husband's boss is moving to Dallas. If she starts a company there like she did here, I will hook you up with her if you are switching careers to teaching/education.
lol orochi slaughter. i thought was you. kinda wondered if that other guy was you too.
puddles you make a good point, and i agree. like nam also disagree. minaret ban is not a good thing, democratic or otherwise. is like taliban ripping down those ancient as all heck buddha statues way back when. they were more or less legitimate govt at the time but is hard to see it as an ok thing to do.
holz.box you might get a kick out of this. i forgot to post a link to brag last year because we were busy and our copy didn't come in mail until december, but our last house made it into detail magazine in Korea. i am not sure why they asked us to include the house as our details are pretty normal, but we felt like real architects for the first time when the magazine came in.
we are still negotiating costs on house that was supposed to start construction a month ago. things are otherwise beginning to look kind of interesting here in the big city. very worrying, but at least interesting.
i am very worried that i know all of obama's policies but almost nothing about mr. harper's. canada is too quiet or something. even the globe and mail reads like was written by the same staff as the new york times. what the heck, eh!
Was me or is me til someone grabs up this account.
I have to move in two days and i don't have a place to go or any significant amount of money or dependable car. don't have a job.
Ppent all morning getting tipsy and systematically deleting myself from the internet.
I burned/am burning a bunch of stuff in the yard-- mostly bills. It was nice tossing my diploma on the fire though. But I'm tired of carrying all this stuff around all the time.
Formatting my hard drive soon... like i really need a computer full of crappy half done renderings, shitty GIS work and useless planning crap. I lose my cellphone service and internet tomorrow anyways. So, my life up until now would be pretty worthless if I can't call or e-mail anyways.
I guess I better check out where 120 bucks gets me by bus.
Well, I'm sure we will all miss you. [whisper]I thought your burj dubia kitchen comment was funny.[/whisper]
I am 25 miles out of Dallas, which makes it commuting distance. Email me what she is doing down here, and I will let you know if its a direction I'm heading.
Thanks for all the support on the blog, guys! Its quite exciting to watch the "views" graph climb up.
in theory, i don't like they idea of banning anything since i feel that all this does is limit options in the future.
and in a general sense i'm inclined to agree that banning minarets is bad. except in a place like switzerland. it's a relatively small country with it's own distinctive look and, if they don't want them, then fine*. and maybe i haven't paid enough attention to the issue but it doesn't even seem to me that there is much of a muslim resistance to this. instead it seems that most of the objections have come people who are completely divorced from the subject (such as archinectors) except on an theoretical level.
i've posed the question before, "who actually wants to see a minaret in switzerland?" and i've yet to see a raised hand. as ridiculous as archinect's ideas competition has been, maybe i should have offered my own competition, i.e., 'how to ban minarets without actually writing a law banning minarets?'
for me, the architectural aspects of this are pretty concrete & simple (at least in my mind) but i understand that they're really just a proxy for the larger questions of collective identity & assimilation of immigrants. as a frequent immigrant myself, i am aware of this.
*jump, the taliban ripping down ancient buddhas is not a fair comparison. i have great respect for anything that is already there as part of the culture. the issue in switzerland is not about what is there, but rather about where they are going. i also don't read the swiss situation as "government legitimation" but rather an indication that most swiss do not want the minarets.
back to the original intent of thread central....god i am so sick of these threads that are being created where the originator creates this long title and rather than adding any content or asking a question in the body of the thread just says. ? or, please. its just fucking clutter. and a waste of everyone's time. if archinect was a handgun these lamesters would have accidentally shot themselves by now.
harper strikes me as a more intelligent, but equally dishonest gwbush.
nice spread. i hope it brings you some work. i spent a few months in s. korea a few years ago - absolutely loved it. it would be great to do a small project there one day.
nam, I would love the student loan info too if you have a minute -- would you mind forwarding?
I am trying to take my life in a new(ish) direction. When I have some time to give you all more info I would love some feedback from the wise TCers...
re : the minaret thing -- From what I understood the issue was as much (if not more) the "call to prayer" emanating from the minaret as the architectural symbol itself. Then again it's a very swiss thing to do to ban a symbol of what is not-them so I am not at all surprised by it. If anything, the banning itself is more an indication of national character than the architectural homogeneity of their countryside. And I say this with the full blessing of my swiss family who are very up-front (dare I say proud) of their exclusionary habits. Something about living perched in a ring of mountains gets one used to keeping others out, maybe...
It's not an easy question without an easy answer. As for me, I feel banning the minaret itself is a cop-out, partly because banning architectural symbols or styles makes for an endless game of definitions and usually leads to other unintended architectural ramifications (just ask the city of Boston). If the real issue is the call to prayer then ban loud repetitive noisemakers, above a certain decibel level say. You can no longer ring your church bells and the muslim call to prayer becomes a text message alert. If the real issue is the muslim immigrants, then don't bring them into your country to do all the cheap grunt work you don't want to do. It's like Arizonans getting all riled up about spanish-language public schools... I suppose they could argue, like the Swiss, that speaking english is a defining tenet of our national character.
I did a little Google search this morning for my name to make sure my personal information isn't splattered all over the internet, and I found my "2009 Predictions" re: the Thread Central Heroes in the Top 10 results. Read through them again, wow I had a good time writing that thing! Brings a smile to my face, I'd love to add the new batch of "Heroes" if I had the time :o)
I've been busy. I had to give a presentation the other day and it went well, I'm just catching up on other stuff this morning. I didn't catch the State of the Union last night, just like I missed Conan's last show on Friday (but I watched it later)... I didn't have to see either to know that I fully support both men!
holz, your pictoral essay on the previous page of architecture details was very fun!
Strawbeary and Sarah, I'm glad to hear you're getting your businesses on!
Um, orochi/unicorn, do you have a place to go? Why are you deleting your life?
vado: "i am so sick of these threads that are being created where the originator creates this long title and rather than adding any content or asking a question in the body of the thread just says. ?"
amen ... I'm starting to think the 'nect needs moderators
I used to say eh more but is going the same place my French and Spanish. Down the oubliette (sp?).
Puddles no the comparison isn't fair but both practices evoke the same bit of dread in my stomache. I been a minority for a good chunk of my life and it rings bells. Takes me back to those terrifying days as a kid when a guy wearing a brace of hunting knives called out "hey whitey, come over here whitey. Got something to show you whitey". You can say it ain't the same thing but I think it's just a matter of haggling over price really. The deal is gross either way. But that's just me and I really don't think it is my place to tell whole country what to do. Which is why I agree about us all responding even while it worries me. Guess it depends where it goes next.
If I had given it some thought I suppose the coolest minaret would be one that rang out waves of silences instead of sound. That would be awesome. Wonder if it is possible?
Stupid threads are annoying indeed. But I can ignore so not big deal is it?Only wish the fools were more clever.
Harper is totally bush lite. Except we have legalised gay marriage and universal health care so it's ok.
I used to say eh more but is going the same place my French and Spanish. Down the oubliette (sp?).
Puddles no the comparison isn't fair but both practices evoke the same bit of dread in my stomache. I been a minority for a good chunk of my life and it rings bells. Takes me back to those terrifying days as a kid when a guy wearing a brace of hunting knives called out "hey whitey, come over here whitey. Got something to show you whitey". You can say it ain't the same thing but I think it's just a matter of haggling over price really. The deal is gross either way. But that's just me and I really don't think it is my place to tell whole country what to do. Which is why I agree about us all responding even while it worries me. Guess it depends where it goes next.
If I had given it some thought I suppose the coolest minaret would be one that rang out waves of silences instead of sound. That would be awesome. Wonder if it is possible?
Stupid threads are annoying indeed. But I can ignore so not big deal is it?Only wish the fools were more clever.
Harper is totally bush lite. Except we have legalised gay marriage and universal health care so it's ok.
I've said it many times and will say it again: I'm way too busy for how much money I make. not that that statement really makes sense logically, it's just a feeling I have.
It was a nasty day here....I did the slide down the hill totally out of control because of road ice. I couldn't stop the car on the incline....it just kept going and going till I went bump into the rear end of a pickup. Luckly our bummers matched and the roads were icy so she just moved away slowly. No damage to either vechicle except a little black line on her rear bumper. She was cool about it after she got out of her pickup and almost fell on her bum cause it was so slick. I was more worried about people slaming into me from behind, so I was waving her to move to a safe place, cause it really didn't matter where I hit her only the damage mattered. There were like 6 cars that flipped over from the icey road conditions and their wild driving.
Funny thing is I was going like one mile an hour....and I put on the brakes and....it was all slow motion.
Dogs love this kind of day as the snow was the fluffy white stuff which is their favorite as they can play grab ass and jump around in the fluff and feel like ninjas.
Sorry to intrude on the tranquil sanctuary of Thread Central, but I need somewhere to vent where that fucking clown Aquilla isn't posting 1,000 threads.
Moderators, for the love of all that's holy, get rid of that douche.
If I had given it some thought I suppose the coolest minaret would be one that rang out waves of silences instead of sound. That would be awesome. Wonder if it is possible?
Jump, the first thing that jumps to mind is using a white noise generator...Bur i think it would be doable. Almost sounds more like a sound installation.
so I called one of the other lecturers a douche, and the students overheard and started laughing. Eruptions of laughter actually. Does that make me a bad lecturer?
Anyway what the hell was going on with archinect earlier. I was about to call a state of arrest and I couldn't even send an email via the contact portal - weird.
techno, I used "crappy SketchUp skills" (mine) and "asshole driver" (also referring to me) with my students today - they laughed, but I hate being the professor who tries to be cool with the kids by swearing. Those words just come unexpectedly sometimes.
jk3hl, believe me, I feel your pain. I'm not a moderator, and don't think Archinect really has any, but I get your frustration.
bumpers that work are awesome. too bad most cars are made of plastic these days.
"...I called one of the other lecturers a douche...Does that make me a bad lecturer?
no...but it does make you sound like a fraternity jock which is probably a perception worth avoiding.
If I had given it some thought I suppose the coolest minaret would be one that rang out waves of silences instead of sound. That would be awesome. Wonder if it is possible?
the problem is that it would still be a minaret. all religious affiliation aside, they are an agressive form that does resemble a missile. it's a piercing shape that inevitably punctures skylines & landscapes. without local precedent, i would think it would be difficult to get something like that approved for construction in many jurisdictions.
the swiss should have taken a more indirect approach by first banning other less controversial typologies. i'd have started with pyramids (or even better, obelisks). once the manage to keep the ancient egyptians out of switzerland, then they could have moved on to minoans, vikings, etc...before eventually broaching the subject of contemporary threats.
Hey Jk3hl - long time no see. Hope life is treating you well.
Snook - glad to hear everyone was okay after the accident. Hope it stays that way. Always takes a few days for the injuries to come out. I'm still suffering from injuries from when I was rear ended at the beginning of December... no damage to the car except for a small scratch, but I have a muscle tear in my left rhomboid muscle. Yippee Skippy.
Manta - I completely agree with you on the call to prayer thing. Why not just ban the loud repetitive call from the loud speakers? Funny though that you bring up the homogeneity issue. Switzerland came up in a lunch conversation last week. Apparently friends of friends lived in Switzerland for a while. They said it was the most boring place to live because of its homogeneity.
Things are going great - I'm on co-op in NYC and really enjoying the firm I'm at. I thought I was sick of corporate architecture, but the environment here is fun and stimulating. I'm also awaiting replies from a couple grad schools about my hopeful MArch admission.
Snook, I narrowly avoided an identical situation yesterday morning... I was approaching a red light and went to brake, and I just kept sliding forward at horrifying 10-15 miles per hour. For a second or two I just panicked, but then I grabbed my e-brake and yanked while pumping the regular brake with my foot and I stopped literally INCHES from the car in front of me. Phew.
minarets are not aggressive. phalic, yes, but then phaluses are erotic not agressive. unless you are being raped. in which case a phalus is...oh never mind. what about church towers and rocket ships that don't explode but take people to the moon? erotic, soft porn, or angry weapons waiting for a rippling bodice to trigger long repressed passions?
would be cool if churches were banned in switzerland too. actually they were banned here in japan for quite some time, which explains the lack of christians...
anyway if someone who hates a person based on race is a racist, what do you call someone who hates a person based on theology? a theologist? can't be right.
so one of my very best friends here told me today he is getting married and wants to build a house. not sure if he wants us to design it for free or not, but i am happy anyway. today life seems pretty good, in spite of all the darkness going on.
well, i suppose it's more a matter of opinion...but i do feel that the long, slender form of a minaret is aggressive. i'm not sold on them being phallic though since they come to a such a sharp point that (to me at least) does not resemble a penis.
oh come on, phallic symbols are one of the most aggressive formal gestures you can make. They don't just symbolize the physicality of men, but their position in society and their ruling of society. Who has traditionally worked in the office tower (obvious phallic symbol)? Men. Who has historically run, and generally had a more privileged place in churches (steeple = phallus)? Men. Who defended the embattlements of castles (ooh, castles get LOTS of phalluses)? Men. That is all about aggression, control, power. That said, minarets have not exactly cornered the market on the phallic symbol and shouldn't be banned as such. But then maybe I'm taking puddles too seriously...
On another note, This discussion has made me think. I'm not sure that I like being "rationalist" with 6000+ comments anymore, and I may just start over. Not to hide behind anonymity as some would suggest, but because I don't enjoy the implication of status or in-crowd-ness.
i don't really have a problem with anything i read on archinect, except for the talk ABOUT archinect. i don't read any of it. it is like a circular x-ref.
so, if any of the moddies can figure out how to best showcase this ongoing grant competition, could you please place this somewhere public? that way, more than just us aristocrats have a shot at helping communities...
Rationalist, I get where you're coming from on the phallic symbol things, but I'm not convinced its not just a after-reasoning. Wouldn't you think that office towers came about due to space constraints instead of a desire to thrust men's power in our faces.
And that attitude thread is sad. It was taken over on its first page; I feel bad for the guy who started it.
Guess what! My sister is gonna have a kid. Hope you guys don't mind paying.
What do you say to someone who is pregnant, and happy to be so, when they really have no business being? She doesn't call me often, so I won't have to worry about it much.
Beta, its only fair that we keep that competition sequestered in here.
*** ok, guys, I wrote the following out yesterday, when archinect was down and wouldn't let me post it, and it's still on my screen... but it's now kind of too-late and off-topic to post. But I put effort and thought into it so I'm gonna post anyway. Feel free to skip! ***
Just in case my thoughts weren't clear above... I completely disagree with any and all government interference in the rights of human beings to practice whatever religion pleases them, unless that religion is causing clear harm to other people (for example, Christian Scientologists or others who refuse medical treatment for their minor children, or even polygamist practices which intentionally restrict the rights of women and create situations of psychological manipulation of others). I absolutely believe in the free practice of non-harmful religions by any free, independent persons, and do not believe government should restrict it. The trouble comes in the definition of what harms others, of course, and France is battling this out in the question of the veil and the burqa in public places. They are saying it harms the group unity of the French, which is kind of a strange argument (considering the French pride themselves on being individualistic, but I digress.)
In any case, my point above was that I think the Swiss should be more specific in what it is that bothers them and if there is a legitimate problem, being specific will give them a chance to work it out. To ban a symbol of a religion on the grounds that it is "not Swiss" is disingenuous in the extreme; if they are trying to ban islam without banning islam, then I can never support their actions, no matter how many xenophobic swiss citizens vote for it -- even if every single Swiss citizen does. If they have a legitimate issue with how minarets look and function in their country then they need to be honest and open up a dialogue about it that acknowledges and includes their muslim compatriots.
...and banning churches as well would be the exact opposite idea and would pile on further damage on top of damage. I said ban church steeples, not churches (IF the height / architectural styling is the problem).
Sarah, that's a tough one. Frustrating of course. But on the other hand what's done is done, right? Would your sis enjoy some advice / support from her sister who's gone through this before? (I don't know what kind of relationship y'all have.) Maybe she's scared but didn't believe in abortion. Such a tough situation, for both of you.
rationalist, you've worked hard to build up a name and rep for yourself by many thousands of thoughtful and helpful comments. You've gone out of your way on MANY occasions to help people who came here with a variety of difference requests. You have a unique perspective that is valuable on a site with a lot of out-spoken perspectives, and have earned -- through hard work -- a trust-worthy reputation. Why would you throw that away? I don't agree, I think you should stay, ever anon, rationalist.
I don't know what on earth that poster is talking about w.r.t. an "in-crowd". This forum is by far one of the most democratic I've ever seen. There's nothing to stop someone posting whatever they want, wherever they want, and they will -- in almost all instances -- receive a positive, warm, and welcoming response. It's not hard to be nicely received on archinect, and almost no one is going to jump down your throat. People who complain about "in-crowds" here are completely missing the point of the forum, me thinks. Or are sadly somehow feeling inhibited themselves and don't know how to get over that and jump in. Take it with a grain of salt. Who would even BE the in-crowd around here? How would you even define that? It's silly.
And anyway -- what's WRONG with being a well-regarded member of a well-regarded site? Don't let some strange comments from someone with a bone to pick get you to question who you are. You are rationalist. You are who you are. You've made the statements you made because of valid reasons and I'm sure you stand behind all 6,000 of them. Don't let pot-shots from some bruised ego make you question yourself.
i'm not saying that phallic symbols aren't aggressive. they usually are. but i don't always agree with some of the uses of the description "phallic". for example, it's generally assumed that "skyscrapers are phallic symbols" and, yes, in the abstract sense this is true. but i can think of plenty of skyscrapers that don't really resemble penises to me. anything that's too boxy, or square doesn't resemble a penis to me.
the hancock tower in boston for example has very sharp edges and looks like a giant razor blade to me. even though it's a skyscraper (and ostensibly phallic) it doesn't resemble a penis to me. likewise, the burj dubai is far too tall & slender to really resemble a penis either. i don't feel either of these buildings is phallic but they are certainly aggressive in my opinion. likewise, minarets with their spiky tops don't look phallic to me. maybe if the had a version with a rounded top (and they might, i don't know) i would consider them phallic...but for now i just consider them aggressive.
generally speaking, church steeples & even their bell towers don't seem as aggressive to me since the towers are often designed in proportion with the church itself. but given the wide variety of church designs then i'm sure that i could identify many that i would consider aggressive and plenty that are not.
banning churches in europe would be ridiculous. one of my favorite parts of europe is taking a saturday afternoon nap and being woken by the church bells ringing in the city. that's a nice part of the european experience. if i want minarets instead, then i'd head east to istanbul or some other city to get that fix.
Here Here! I like that they aren't coming in here and starting fights, though.
And no, I tried to tell her some things, but she won't hear it, or believe anything from me. Her husband is unemployed, and turned down a job offer. She works part time at a dr's office. She has no insurance, but says the doctor will be free. She said they weren't "trying" but she's been off the pill for over a year because it made her sick. Whatever. She's begging my grandmother for money left and right. When I told her I was sorry I didn't have any of my books, she said that she didn't want them. Her body was going to do what it will. She said the Dr will tell her everything. When I told her she'd [not appropriate for the squeemish] bleed for a full month after birth[/squeemish], she said, and I quote, "Well, maybe I'll be lucky, and won't." Yeah, and you won't get swollen ankles, and your baby will sleep through the night at day one. Whatever.
tis a cold windy night here in New England with a plump ole winter moon. I believe in freedom of relegion, nothing more to say on the manner. Other than I'm fricking tired of people trying to dectate the visual aspects of Architecture. We don't live in a time capsule, we live in a ever changing enviroment. All you have to do is take a look at the automobile. Can you imagine how the automotive industry would feel if all of a sudden the goverments wanted to dictate any thing beyond a safety issue. JUST LEAVE US ARCHITECTS ALONE AND LET US DO OUR THING AND THAT IS TO SOLVE PEOPLES PROBLEMS!
THE VISUAL STATEMENT OF ARCHITECTURE IS NOT PONOGRAPHY!
i guess you were suggesting praying, not paying sarah? prayer is not part of my life, but if well-wishes count i do hope all goes well for her.
my step sister had her first child at 14 or so and her daughter did the same (can you imagine being a gramma before 30? hah! the irony) so i feel right at home with the idea of people not ready for kids having them anyway. not much you can do but let her live her life as she wishes - as long as she ain't hurtin no one. hard to do, i know - but it all works out in the end...usually.
banning churches in europe is about equal to banning minarets isn't it, puddles? i thought an anarchist like yourself would enjoy spreading the absurdity equally. i would totally fall on floor laughing if they went that way, though i think manta has the most mature view, all in all.
the idea of no minarets in europe is funny. like the spanish saying moorish architecture isn't really important, or that spanish music can't possibly have roots in arabic culture.
interesting that so many see phallus as aggressive. that is very roman world view (there is evidence the ancient men performed public sex acts to confirm authority over women, as normal and frightening part of the culture). maybe i am minoan at heart. jumping bulls and associated frolicking in the nuddy is much more pleasant image to me ;-)
I don't think towers are phallic symbols at all. They're functional objects to give one a better vantage point. We just look at them and read "penis" because of our own insecurities, just like newbies come to TC and think "powerful in-crowd" because of their insecurities.
Whatever. I'm tired of having 11,000+ posts, and may do exactly what rationalist suggested - I've been considering it ever since about 9,000, actually.
Thread Central
the whole swiss minaret issue is just bizarre to me. the swiss decide (via an open, democratic process) that they don't want any more minarets on their landscape...and then people (many of whom are probably atheists & living six timezones away) take up the cause of a religious minority. and because they're architects they propose to build an architecture (a minaret) without building an architecture (a minaret). how strange. you'd think architects could find more meaningful work to do within their own communities...but then again, maybe things really are that bad.
Man, has it been slow on here lately.
Techno, leave as many comments as you'd like. Thank you!
Nam, I got you email. Shouldn't you be lounging on a balcony seaside with your lady?
sarah, I left you some comments on your blog! Love the nap pad for your little boy. Totally something I would do.
Also Sarah, I was thinking, are you in/near Dallas? My husband's boss is moving to Dallas. If she starts a company there like she did here, I will hook you up with her if you are switching careers to teaching/education.
if anyone wants to take my account for a spin, steal it or do whatever you want with it...
the account name is orochi, and the password is 'archinect'
k bye
Sarah,
Soon, but not until tomorrow afternoon.
Unicorn, i wondered if that was you orochi....
Puddles not sure that I disagree with on your last post or not..
lol orochi slaughter. i thought was you. kinda wondered if that other guy was you too.
puddles you make a good point, and i agree. like nam also disagree. minaret ban is not a good thing, democratic or otherwise. is like taliban ripping down those ancient as all heck buddha statues way back when. they were more or less legitimate govt at the time but is hard to see it as an ok thing to do.
holz.box you might get a kick out of this. i forgot to post a link to brag last year because we were busy and our copy didn't come in mail until december, but our last house made it into detail magazine in Korea. i am not sure why they asked us to include the house as our details are pretty normal, but we felt like real architects for the first time when the magazine came in.
we are still negotiating costs on house that was supposed to start construction a month ago. things are otherwise beginning to look kind of interesting here in the big city. very worrying, but at least interesting.
i am very worried that i know all of obama's policies but almost nothing about mr. harper's. canada is too quiet or something. even the globe and mail reads like was written by the same staff as the new york times. what the heck, eh!
Was me or is me til someone grabs up this account.
I have to move in two days and i don't have a place to go or any significant amount of money or dependable car. don't have a job.
Ppent all morning getting tipsy and systematically deleting myself from the internet.
I burned/am burning a bunch of stuff in the yard-- mostly bills. It was nice tossing my diploma on the fire though. But I'm tired of carrying all this stuff around all the time.
Formatting my hard drive soon... like i really need a computer full of crappy half done renderings, shitty GIS work and useless planning crap. I lose my cellphone service and internet tomorrow anyways. So, my life up until now would be pretty worthless if I can't call or e-mail anyways.
I guess I better check out where 120 bucks gets me by bus.
Anyways, it's been ok? I'm gone.
Well, I'm sure we will all miss you. [whisper]I thought your burj dubia kitchen comment was funny.[/whisper]
I am 25 miles out of Dallas, which makes it commuting distance. Email me what she is doing down here, and I will let you know if its a direction I'm heading.
Thanks for all the support on the blog, guys! Its quite exciting to watch the "views" graph climb up.
in theory, i don't like they idea of banning anything since i feel that all this does is limit options in the future.
and in a general sense i'm inclined to agree that banning minarets is bad. except in a place like switzerland. it's a relatively small country with it's own distinctive look and, if they don't want them, then fine*. and maybe i haven't paid enough attention to the issue but it doesn't even seem to me that there is much of a muslim resistance to this. instead it seems that most of the objections have come people who are completely divorced from the subject (such as archinectors) except on an theoretical level.
i've posed the question before, "who actually wants to see a minaret in switzerland?" and i've yet to see a raised hand. as ridiculous as archinect's ideas competition has been, maybe i should have offered my own competition, i.e., 'how to ban minarets without actually writing a law banning minarets?'
for me, the architectural aspects of this are pretty concrete & simple (at least in my mind) but i understand that they're really just a proxy for the larger questions of collective identity & assimilation of immigrants. as a frequent immigrant myself, i am aware of this.
*jump, the taliban ripping down ancient buddhas is not a fair comparison. i have great respect for anything that is already there as part of the culture. the issue in switzerland is not about what is there, but rather about where they are going. i also don't read the swiss situation as "government legitimation" but rather an indication that most swiss do not want the minarets.
back to the original intent of thread central....god i am so sick of these threads that are being created where the originator creates this long title and rather than adding any content or asking a question in the body of the thread just says. ? or, please. its just fucking clutter. and a waste of everyone's time. if archinect was a handgun these lamesters would have accidentally shot themselves by now.
jump,
harper strikes me as a more intelligent, but equally dishonest gwbush.
nice spread. i hope it brings you some work. i spent a few months in s. korea a few years ago - absolutely loved it. it would be great to do a small project there one day.
nam, I would love the student loan info too if you have a minute -- would you mind forwarding?
I am trying to take my life in a new(ish) direction. When I have some time to give you all more info I would love some feedback from the wise TCers...
re : the minaret thing -- From what I understood the issue was as much (if not more) the "call to prayer" emanating from the minaret as the architectural symbol itself. Then again it's a very swiss thing to do to ban a symbol of what is not-them so I am not at all surprised by it. If anything, the banning itself is more an indication of national character than the architectural homogeneity of their countryside. And I say this with the full blessing of my swiss family who are very up-front (dare I say proud) of their exclusionary habits. Something about living perched in a ring of mountains gets one used to keeping others out, maybe...
It's not an easy question without an easy answer. As for me, I feel banning the minaret itself is a cop-out, partly because banning architectural symbols or styles makes for an endless game of definitions and usually leads to other unintended architectural ramifications (just ask the city of Boston). If the real issue is the call to prayer then ban loud repetitive noisemakers, above a certain decibel level say. You can no longer ring your church bells and the muslim call to prayer becomes a text message alert. If the real issue is the muslim immigrants, then don't bring them into your country to do all the cheap grunt work you don't want to do. It's like Arizonans getting all riled up about spanish-language public schools... I suppose they could argue, like the Swiss, that speaking english is a defining tenet of our national character.
But I digress...
Hi friends...
I did a little Google search this morning for my name to make sure my personal information isn't splattered all over the internet, and I found my "2009 Predictions" re: the Thread Central Heroes in the Top 10 results. Read through them again, wow I had a good time writing that thing! Brings a smile to my face, I'd love to add the new batch of "Heroes" if I had the time :o)
I've been busy. I had to give a presentation the other day and it went well, I'm just catching up on other stuff this morning. I didn't catch the State of the Union last night, just like I missed Conan's last show on Friday (but I watched it later)... I didn't have to see either to know that I fully support both men!
holz, your pictoral essay on the previous page of architecture details was very fun!
Strawbeary and Sarah, I'm glad to hear you're getting your businesses on!
Um, orochi/unicorn, do you have a place to go? Why are you deleting your life?
HaHa! Jump said "eh"!
I agree completely with Holz re: Harper's resemblance to GW Bush.
Manta, just sent. I would be interested in hearing about your new direction, when you have a min.
vado: "i am so sick of these threads that are being created where the originator creates this long title and rather than adding any content or asking a question in the body of the thread just says. ?"
amen ... I'm starting to think the 'nect needs moderators
I used to say eh more but is going the same place my French and Spanish. Down the oubliette (sp?).
Puddles no the comparison isn't fair but both practices evoke the same bit of dread in my stomache. I been a minority for a good chunk of my life and it rings bells. Takes me back to those terrifying days as a kid when a guy wearing a brace of hunting knives called out "hey whitey, come over here whitey. Got something to show you whitey". You can say it ain't the same thing but I think it's just a matter of haggling over price really. The deal is gross either way. But that's just me and I really don't think it is my place to tell whole country what to do. Which is why I agree about us all responding even while it worries me. Guess it depends where it goes next.
If I had given it some thought I suppose the coolest minaret would be one that rang out waves of silences instead of sound. That would be awesome. Wonder if it is possible?
Stupid threads are annoying indeed. But I can ignore so not big deal is it?Only wish the fools were more clever.
Harper is totally bush lite. Except we have legalised gay marriage and universal health care so it's ok.
I used to say eh more but is going the same place my French and Spanish. Down the oubliette (sp?).
Puddles no the comparison isn't fair but both practices evoke the same bit of dread in my stomache. I been a minority for a good chunk of my life and it rings bells. Takes me back to those terrifying days as a kid when a guy wearing a brace of hunting knives called out "hey whitey, come over here whitey. Got something to show you whitey". You can say it ain't the same thing but I think it's just a matter of haggling over price really. The deal is gross either way. But that's just me and I really don't think it is my place to tell whole country what to do. Which is why I agree about us all responding even while it worries me. Guess it depends where it goes next.
If I had given it some thought I suppose the coolest minaret would be one that rang out waves of silences instead of sound. That would be awesome. Wonder if it is possible?
Stupid threads are annoying indeed. But I can ignore so not big deal is it?Only wish the fools were more clever.
Harper is totally bush lite. Except we have legalised gay marriage and universal health care so it's ok.
Aargh sorry.
This made me laugh out loud.
I've said it many times and will say it again: I'm way too busy for how much money I make. not that that statement really makes sense logically, it's just a feeling I have.
More later, gotta get the kid to bed.
no yooos betcha....Jumper?
It was a nasty day here....I did the slide down the hill totally out of control because of road ice. I couldn't stop the car on the incline....it just kept going and going till I went bump into the rear end of a pickup. Luckly our bummers matched and the roads were icy so she just moved away slowly. No damage to either vechicle except a little black line on her rear bumper. She was cool about it after she got out of her pickup and almost fell on her bum cause it was so slick. I was more worried about people slaming into me from behind, so I was waving her to move to a safe place, cause it really didn't matter where I hit her only the damage mattered. There were like 6 cars that flipped over from the icey road conditions and their wild driving.
Funny thing is I was going like one mile an hour....and I put on the brakes and....it was all slow motion.
Dogs love this kind of day as the snow was the fluffy white stuff which is their favorite as they can play grab ass and jump around in the fluff and feel like ninjas.
GRAAAAH!
Sorry to intrude on the tranquil sanctuary of Thread Central, but I need somewhere to vent where that fucking clown Aquilla isn't posting 1,000 threads.
Moderators, for the love of all that's holy, get rid of that douche.
Jump, the first thing that jumps to mind is using a white noise generator...Bur i think it would be doable. Almost sounds more like a sound installation.
Paging Mr. Soundscraper....
so I called one of the other lecturers a douche, and the students overheard and started laughing. Eruptions of laughter actually. Does that make me a bad lecturer?
Anyway what the hell was going on with archinect earlier. I was about to call a state of arrest and I couldn't even send an email via the contact portal - weird.
techno, I used "crappy SketchUp skills" (mine) and "asshole driver" (also referring to me) with my students today - they laughed, but I hate being the professor who tries to be cool with the kids by swearing. Those words just come unexpectedly sometimes.
jk3hl, believe me, I feel your pain. I'm not a moderator, and don't think Archinect really has any, but I get your frustration.
how is aquila's recent actions any different than what per did?
per was more contained, and at least he was actually trying to say something.
bumpers that work are awesome. too bad most cars are made of plastic these days.
"...I called one of the other lecturers a douche...Does that make me a bad lecturer?
no...but it does make you sound like a fraternity jock which is probably a perception worth avoiding.
If I had given it some thought I suppose the coolest minaret would be one that rang out waves of silences instead of sound. That would be awesome. Wonder if it is possible?
the problem is that it would still be a minaret. all religious affiliation aside, they are an agressive form that does resemble a missile. it's a piercing shape that inevitably punctures skylines & landscapes. without local precedent, i would think it would be difficult to get something like that approved for construction in many jurisdictions.
the swiss should have taken a more indirect approach by first banning other less controversial typologies. i'd have started with pyramids (or even better, obelisks). once the manage to keep the ancient egyptians out of switzerland, then they could have moved on to minoans, vikings, etc...before eventually broaching the subject of contemporary threats.
stranger than kindness
I'm with p2an on this one. Nice to see you guys, though.
I do wonder how it is that within the last year or so we've gotten all these inciters. Archinect was so peaceful before. What happened?
Morning all.
Hey Jk3hl - long time no see. Hope life is treating you well.
Snook - glad to hear everyone was okay after the accident. Hope it stays that way. Always takes a few days for the injuries to come out. I'm still suffering from injuries from when I was rear ended at the beginning of December... no damage to the car except for a small scratch, but I have a muscle tear in my left rhomboid muscle. Yippee Skippy.
Manta - I completely agree with you on the call to prayer thing. Why not just ban the loud repetitive call from the loud speakers? Funny though that you bring up the homogeneity issue. Switzerland came up in a lunch conversation last week. Apparently friends of friends lived in Switzerland for a while. They said it was the most boring place to live because of its homogeneity.
Hi melt!
Things are going great - I'm on co-op in NYC and really enjoying the firm I'm at. I thought I was sick of corporate architecture, but the environment here is fun and stimulating. I'm also awaiting replies from a couple grad schools about my hopeful MArch admission.
Snook, I narrowly avoided an identical situation yesterday morning... I was approaching a red light and went to brake, and I just kept sliding forward at horrifying 10-15 miles per hour. For a second or two I just panicked, but then I grabbed my e-brake and yanked while pumping the regular brake with my foot and I stopped literally INCHES from the car in front of me. Phew.
good save jk3hl!
minarets are not aggressive. phalic, yes, but then phaluses are erotic not agressive. unless you are being raped. in which case a phalus is...oh never mind. what about church towers and rocket ships that don't explode but take people to the moon? erotic, soft porn, or angry weapons waiting for a rippling bodice to trigger long repressed passions?
would be cool if churches were banned in switzerland too. actually they were banned here in japan for quite some time, which explains the lack of christians...
anyway if someone who hates a person based on race is a racist, what do you call someone who hates a person based on theology? a theologist? can't be right.
so one of my very best friends here told me today he is getting married and wants to build a house. not sure if he wants us to design it for free or not, but i am happy anyway. today life seems pretty good, in spite of all the darkness going on.
well, i suppose it's more a matter of opinion...but i do feel that the long, slender form of a minaret is aggressive. i'm not sold on them being phallic though since they come to a such a sharp point that (to me at least) does not resemble a penis.
why am i even talking about minarets & switzerland? i really don't care about.
oh great...and my nails need trimming too.
oh come on, phallic symbols are one of the most aggressive formal gestures you can make. They don't just symbolize the physicality of men, but their position in society and their ruling of society. Who has traditionally worked in the office tower (obvious phallic symbol)? Men. Who has historically run, and generally had a more privileged place in churches (steeple = phallus)? Men. Who defended the embattlements of castles (ooh, castles get LOTS of phalluses)? Men. That is all about aggression, control, power. That said, minarets have not exactly cornered the market on the phallic symbol and shouldn't be banned as such. But then maybe I'm taking puddles too seriously...
On another note, This discussion has made me think. I'm not sure that I like being "rationalist" with 6000+ comments anymore, and I may just start over. Not to hide behind anonymity as some would suggest, but because I don't enjoy the implication of status or in-crowd-ness.
orochi... u ok?
i don't really have a problem with anything i read on archinect, except for the talk ABOUT archinect. i don't read any of it. it is like a circular x-ref.
since i am part of the aristocracy, i guess i should know how to post this somewhere appropriate, but alas, i seem to be more of a dilettante.
Pepsi Refresh
so, if any of the moddies can figure out how to best showcase this ongoing grant competition, could you please place this somewhere public? that way, more than just us aristocrats have a shot at helping communities...
thanks, back to you, don pardo.
Rationalist, I get where you're coming from on the phallic symbol things, but I'm not convinced its not just a after-reasoning. Wouldn't you think that office towers came about due to space constraints instead of a desire to thrust men's power in our faces.
And that attitude thread is sad. It was taken over on its first page; I feel bad for the guy who started it.
Guess what! My sister is gonna have a kid. Hope you guys don't mind paying.
What do you say to someone who is pregnant, and happy to be so, when they really have no business being? She doesn't call me often, so I won't have to worry about it much.
Beta, its only fair that we keep that competition sequestered in here.
*** ok, guys, I wrote the following out yesterday, when archinect was down and wouldn't let me post it, and it's still on my screen... but it's now kind of too-late and off-topic to post. But I put effort and thought into it so I'm gonna post anyway. Feel free to skip! ***
Just in case my thoughts weren't clear above... I completely disagree with any and all government interference in the rights of human beings to practice whatever religion pleases them, unless that religion is causing clear harm to other people (for example, Christian Scientologists or others who refuse medical treatment for their minor children, or even polygamist practices which intentionally restrict the rights of women and create situations of psychological manipulation of others). I absolutely believe in the free practice of non-harmful religions by any free, independent persons, and do not believe government should restrict it. The trouble comes in the definition of what harms others, of course, and France is battling this out in the question of the veil and the burqa in public places. They are saying it harms the group unity of the French, which is kind of a strange argument (considering the French pride themselves on being individualistic, but I digress.)
In any case, my point above was that I think the Swiss should be more specific in what it is that bothers them and if there is a legitimate problem, being specific will give them a chance to work it out. To ban a symbol of a religion on the grounds that it is "not Swiss" is disingenuous in the extreme; if they are trying to ban islam without banning islam, then I can never support their actions, no matter how many xenophobic swiss citizens vote for it -- even if every single Swiss citizen does. If they have a legitimate issue with how minarets look and function in their country then they need to be honest and open up a dialogue about it that acknowledges and includes their muslim compatriots.
...and banning churches as well would be the exact opposite idea and would pile on further damage on top of damage. I said ban church steeples, not churches (IF the height / architectural styling is the problem).
Sarah, that's a tough one. Frustrating of course. But on the other hand what's done is done, right? Would your sis enjoy some advice / support from her sister who's gone through this before? (I don't know what kind of relationship y'all have.) Maybe she's scared but didn't believe in abortion. Such a tough situation, for both of you.
rationalist, you've worked hard to build up a name and rep for yourself by many thousands of thoughtful and helpful comments. You've gone out of your way on MANY occasions to help people who came here with a variety of difference requests. You have a unique perspective that is valuable on a site with a lot of out-spoken perspectives, and have earned -- through hard work -- a trust-worthy reputation. Why would you throw that away? I don't agree, I think you should stay, ever anon, rationalist.
I don't know what on earth that poster is talking about w.r.t. an "in-crowd". This forum is by far one of the most democratic I've ever seen. There's nothing to stop someone posting whatever they want, wherever they want, and they will -- in almost all instances -- receive a positive, warm, and welcoming response. It's not hard to be nicely received on archinect, and almost no one is going to jump down your throat. People who complain about "in-crowds" here are completely missing the point of the forum, me thinks. Or are sadly somehow feeling inhibited themselves and don't know how to get over that and jump in. Take it with a grain of salt. Who would even BE the in-crowd around here? How would you even define that? It's silly.
And anyway -- what's WRONG with being a well-regarded member of a well-regarded site? Don't let some strange comments from someone with a bone to pick get you to question who you are. You are rationalist. You are who you are. You've made the statements you made because of valid reasons and I'm sure you stand behind all 6,000 of them. Don't let pot-shots from some bruised ego make you question yourself.
i'm not saying that phallic symbols aren't aggressive. they usually are. but i don't always agree with some of the uses of the description "phallic". for example, it's generally assumed that "skyscrapers are phallic symbols" and, yes, in the abstract sense this is true. but i can think of plenty of skyscrapers that don't really resemble penises to me. anything that's too boxy, or square doesn't resemble a penis to me.
the hancock tower in boston for example has very sharp edges and looks like a giant razor blade to me. even though it's a skyscraper (and ostensibly phallic) it doesn't resemble a penis to me. likewise, the burj dubai is far too tall & slender to really resemble a penis either. i don't feel either of these buildings is phallic but they are certainly aggressive in my opinion. likewise, minarets with their spiky tops don't look phallic to me. maybe if the had a version with a rounded top (and they might, i don't know) i would consider them phallic...but for now i just consider them aggressive.
generally speaking, church steeples & even their bell towers don't seem as aggressive to me since the towers are often designed in proportion with the church itself. but given the wide variety of church designs then i'm sure that i could identify many that i would consider aggressive and plenty that are not.
banning churches in europe would be ridiculous. one of my favorite parts of europe is taking a saturday afternoon nap and being woken by the church bells ringing in the city. that's a nice part of the european experience. if i want minarets instead, then i'd head east to istanbul or some other city to get that fix.
Here Here! I like that they aren't coming in here and starting fights, though.
And no, I tried to tell her some things, but she won't hear it, or believe anything from me. Her husband is unemployed, and turned down a job offer. She works part time at a dr's office. She has no insurance, but says the doctor will be free. She said they weren't "trying" but she's been off the pill for over a year because it made her sick. Whatever. She's begging my grandmother for money left and right. When I told her I was sorry I didn't have any of my books, she said that she didn't want them. Her body was going to do what it will. She said the Dr will tell her everything. When I told her she'd [not appropriate for the squeemish] bleed for a full month after birth[/squeemish], she said, and I quote, "Well, maybe I'll be lucky, and won't." Yeah, and you won't get swollen ankles, and your baby will sleep through the night at day one. Whatever.
tis a cold windy night here in New England with a plump ole winter moon. I believe in freedom of relegion, nothing more to say on the manner. Other than I'm fricking tired of people trying to dectate the visual aspects of Architecture. We don't live in a time capsule, we live in a ever changing enviroment. All you have to do is take a look at the automobile. Can you imagine how the automotive industry would feel if all of a sudden the goverments wanted to dictate any thing beyond a safety issue. JUST LEAVE US ARCHITECTS ALONE AND LET US DO OUR THING AND THAT IS TO SOLVE PEOPLES PROBLEMS!
THE VISUAL STATEMENT OF ARCHITECTURE IS NOT PONOGRAPHY!
i guess you were suggesting praying, not paying sarah? prayer is not part of my life, but if well-wishes count i do hope all goes well for her.
my step sister had her first child at 14 or so and her daughter did the same (can you imagine being a gramma before 30? hah! the irony) so i feel right at home with the idea of people not ready for kids having them anyway. not much you can do but let her live her life as she wishes - as long as she ain't hurtin no one. hard to do, i know - but it all works out in the end...usually.
banning churches in europe is about equal to banning minarets isn't it, puddles? i thought an anarchist like yourself would enjoy spreading the absurdity equally. i would totally fall on floor laughing if they went that way, though i think manta has the most mature view, all in all.
the idea of no minarets in europe is funny. like the spanish saying moorish architecture isn't really important, or that spanish music can't possibly have roots in arabic culture.
interesting that so many see phallus as aggressive. that is very roman world view (there is evidence the ancient men performed public sex acts to confirm authority over women, as normal and frightening part of the culture). maybe i am minoan at heart. jumping bulls and associated frolicking in the nuddy is much more pleasant image to me ;-)
Frolicking in the nude is good.
I don't think towers are phallic symbols at all. They're functional objects to give one a better vantage point. We just look at them and read "penis" because of our own insecurities, just like newbies come to TC and think "powerful in-crowd" because of their insecurities.
Whatever. I'm tired of having 11,000+ posts, and may do exactly what rationalist suggested - I've been considering it ever since about 9,000, actually.
speaking of the idea of people not ready for kids...
this self-righteous, anti-anything aristocratic is gonna frollick in the nuddy whilst balancing his birthday present - w/ a wee bit o' water. :)
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