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jla-x

was invited to a bbq yesterday at a landscape project that I designed in a very expensive neighborhood...turned into people wanting non stop free advice while I’m trying to shovel free food down my throat...



Apr 15, 19 11:47 am
archanonymous

is it one of those "you pat my back, i'll shove a hot-dog down your throat" kind of scenarios?

jla-x

Yup. Keep feeding me and I’ll keep talking...like a trained seal...

atelier nobody

An important debate critical to the future of architectural practice...

I WILL FIGHT YOU!

Apr 15, 19 3:13 pm
gibbost

I'll second that.

jla-x

I’ll third that.

Non Sequitur

fourth and fifth that

atelier nobody

Another absolutely critical issue...


Apr 15, 19 3:38 pm
curtkram

I've never seen a different flair pen tip

Sharpie rules. Let 'em know your mean business. 

Non Sequitur

No fountain pen? weak study.

tduds

Fountain pens are biased against lefties. I despise them.

Non Sequitur

^just write with your right hand. Problem solved.

atelier nobody

Fountain pen in my pocket at all times, but I've never gotten the knack of sketching with it.

I suppose I could also do a comparison between traditional tech. pens (love 'em, but disposables are convenient), Copic SP (seemed like a good idea, but not thrilled). Microns (used 'em for years, but quality is slipping badly), and other disposable fineliners (haven't found one to replace Microns yet).

liberty bell

Well, for better or worse, it happened: I hit my breaking point. Got up and walked out of a meeting today where I was being lied to, right to my face,  by someone trying to make themselves look better. The nice thing about hitting my age is I don’t need to put up with bullshit anymore. So maybe I’ll lose my job, but I’ll figure out something else. 


I won’t be used as a pinball between other parties that won’t speak honestly to one another.

Apr 15, 19 4:41 pm
archanonymous

good for you! I'm sure given your reputation in your locale that you could walk into any number of architecture, builder, or development firms and have a job same day.

SneakyPete

I can't give you a five high enough.

Rusty!

Don't call yourself 'liberty ball' if you don't want to be used as a bonus pinball piece gah! On a more serious note, I noticed in the last few years that accomplished women in architecture that I admire on a professional level very much, have been getting a total garbage treatment from both contractors and owners. Maybe we hit a peak construction again. There is too much work and not enough qualified parties to take it on. GCs taking on major work have barely any experience with related work. "uhh what's a submittal?" And they have shit attitude to go with it. They will take it out on women (easy target) and even mock them for being wasteful and out of touch for daring to maintain certain procedural requirements. Also, lots of inexperienced owners/developers looking to cut all corners because they don't understand the scope really well. Industry needs a purge. Come on Trumplet, bring on a recession! You can do it in 99 tweets.

midlander

congratulations! it's feels good to stand up for yourself. projects with such toxic relationships rarely are worth participating in.

Zero tolerance policy for bullshit. Next time don't walk out, call them on it then and there. Set an example. The trick is to not lose your cool. Take a deep breath or two, stay calm, and set it straight.

randomised

Congrats for standing up for yourself, but should've called them out before walking out!

joseffischer

I've noticed an uptick in needing to write emails including standards from ASTM as called for in the specs just to get people to do their jobs. I had a Sherwin Williams rep doing some paint adhesion tests just the other day. Paint peeled right off, the whole thing, and he stood their telling the contractor, owner, and myself that it didn't constitute a failure. I sat through his talk, and then asked who's SW rep is he... oh, the painters? ok, when can we get a real rep in here. He and the painter weren't too pleased when I conducted the rest of the meeting like they weren't even in the room.

Bench

Question to the crowd -

Ive received numerous recruiter messages in the past, almost all through LinkedIn, less often via email.

Today I received my first direct physical mail sent to my office, found it on my desk from the office manager. It was subtle, but not subtle enough (clear recruiter branding across the back of the envelope). This seems unbelievably inappropriate - is that just me who thinks this?

I get that there is a market for it, and people are employed for the job of recruiter. But I am very confident that no recruiter can reasonably make a sufficient competing offer to my current position, and the last thing I would want is a boss getting the wrong impression by seeing that.

Im a bit peeved about it to be honest.

Apr 15, 19 6:23 pm
archanonymous

I occasionally get calls on my desk phone. It definitely pisses me off, but not as much as when I ask how much they are offering and they quote me a number below my current salary.

randomised

" This seems unbelievably inappropriate - is that just me who thinks this?"

So, the office manager knows recruiters are after you, use it to your advantage ;-)

Bench

I wont deny that its not a bad thing for the idea to be out there, but certainly not what i'd want to be an overt thing.

thatsthat

I got a call at my desk from a recruiter just a week or so ago. I was extremely terse with him; he said "I can imagine this is a bad time for you to discuss your options." Then why did you call me at work? This is after he had already sent me 2 messages via linkedin and an email. Give it a rest! I work in a specific specialty so of course 99% of the jobs that recruiters contact me about are completely unrelated to what I do, making it doubly frustrating. Do others get this too?

Non Sequitur

I've gotten a few calls to my extension. One time the recruiter called me, then following my terse rejection (and, from what I remember some sort of snarky "does this ever work" comment), the same recruiter called the other arch sitting next to me.

Bloopox

Yeah I get tons of these lately. They're annoying, but in the past they've also been a very reliable harbinger of the state of the economy (the calls stopped roughly 8 months before each of the last two recessions was widely labeled as such.) I really don't think you need to worry about it looking bad to your employer - surely your employer knows how recruiters operate. I can say from experience that the same ones calling you are most likely also trying to recruit your employer.

Bench

Fortunately I dont really think theres any substantial/real risk to me here, I work for a good company. Im more venting at the sheer brashness of a recruiter who would do that. I already have a pretty bad opinion of recruiters generally, so when the messages elevate from spam-at-best to conspicuous or ostentatious, I have to wonder where the line of decency ends.


Bloopox

The average subtlety of recruiters, lacking though it is, seems to me to have actually improved in these last 2 decades, because at least some of them have adopted email and social media. The phone calls at work used to be much worse. I recall in my first jobs in the 90s that the recruiters would all try calling all of us at lunchtime when they thought the regular office managers might be out of the office and it would ring straight to our desks, or hoping they'd get the fill-in phone answering person who wasn't as adept at detecting them before they put them through to us.  While it would be really inappropriate for another firm to call you on your work phone or send postcards blatantly trying to lure you away from your current job, third-party recruiters don't follow the same etiquette rules - they've always operated as if it's just a given that they'll be conspicuous.

tintt

How bad does a firm have to be to rely on recruiters to find employees? The whole practice is terrible. One of the recruiters I hear from was on a reality TV show that I used to watch.... not exactly someone I would want to do "talent seeking". I think the practice should be dropped.

midlander

i once gave a flippant salary requirement to a cold call recruiter which was well above what i made. he followed up and that actually led to a different job with a pretty good raise a few months later. we have kept in touch and he actually knows quite a bit of information about the local market and happenings at the major firms. sometimes it's worth talking to recruiters even if you have no plans to leave. plans change and good recruiters can be a good resource on the market.

Bench

Tintt, I agree. Recruiters have a place for other industries that focus on getting bums in seats, where personality is less important. But architecture requires a more holistic understanding of how the individual will integrate into the firm if either party wants any success, so in that respect I dont think recruiters really have much of a role to play. Ive interviewed at firms where I walked out knowing that even if an offer was coming, it was not somewhere I could join. And I'm certain interviews that I thought went really well never had an offer coming because of similar thoughts on the employers part.

I've wondered sometimes if you could flip the recruiter model and instead of employers hiring recruiters, we (employees) should be hiring agents to go out and find the best fit for us. But then I remember that we don't make squat and who would be able to afford an agent when some can't even afford their student loan payment.

SneakyPete

Recruiters charge 25% of the agreed upon salary as their cut. That's steep considering how little they do. Remind me of Real Estate Agents.

Bench

^ ^ This comes from the employers side though, not the employee's side, if i'm not mistaken? (making it additional cost to the employer, not a cut from the worker's check)

Steeplechase

thatsthat, I am in a similar position as you, working in a specific industry with only a handful of local firms working in it. It’s even worse when they actually discuss the potential job as it is apparent they are just spamming people. My most recent was about how I’m a great fit leading large healthcare projects. I guess because I’ve been to the doctor I’m now highly qualified to design hospitals.

The only difference between this practice and health insurance is that that we are not required by law to pay recruiters to handle all employment issues. But that too will be "fixed" in time.

tintt

I got a solicitation for a heathcare architect position with promises of a large salary and profit-sharing. I do have some experience in healthcare but not much. Makes you wonder what they are doing. I did talk to another recruiter and told her what I was thinking for and she said that's nice but that doesn't exist (part-time).

Rusty!

You guys are overthinking this. Recruiters exist in order to poach people. The best candidate for the position is already happily employed elsewhere and not even looking at job boards. People who are actively looking are second tier just based on risk profile alone. People who are unemployed and looking are like 6th tier.

Steeplechase

Rusty!, I get the idea of poaching but I would think that part of being top tier talent is more realistically understanding one’s experience and expertise.

axonapoplectic

I’m going to start a firm that is maybe a couple architects, a bunch of marketing people, and at least 20 lawyers.

Apr 16, 19 7:09 pm
axonapoplectic

I will make the lawyers do CA.

midlander

maximize overhead as a goal? i was reading somewhere phil knight only hired accountants and lawyers  when he started nike as he felt no one else had quantifiable skills. obviously after a few years they hit their limits with that and got some designers.

Apr 16, 19 11:21 pm
axonapoplectic

the Lawyers would know revit.

Didn't the secretary design the swoosh? Neville Brody made Just Do It.

Happy Weekend TC! I've been getting over an illness and stuck in bed. I found this video series on YouTube a while back but revisited today and thought I'd share in case anyone else is interested. Two guys are building a wooden boat from scratch having never built a boat like it before. Cringe worthy in some aspects, but overall a fascinating look at woodworking, and a different construction process than we might be used to in traditional architecture. They've been at it for ~3 years so there is plenty of content if you're also stuck in bed looking for something to binge watch. 

Acorn to Arabella Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAiDWnTP0WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

Intro Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLKBS-j-ftw

Apr 20, 19 4:34 pm

Sorry to hear you've been ill. Heal fast -

curtkram

enjoy the time off. Some times I think my best days are when I get to stay home in bed :)

Husband has been ill the last few days and I'm emotionally exhausted anyway so we've spent most of this weekend bingeing the Better Call Saul season we never watched. It's heaven.

My level of stress can be measured using the Pop Tart index: the number of Pop Tarts I consume in a week is relational to my level of  "well-fuck-everything-anyway" anxiety.

We bought a jumbo box this weekend.

Apr 23, 19 10:16 am
eeayeeayo

Now you made me want Pop Tarts. I don't think I've had one in 10 years - I kind of assumed they were extinct by now, like Boo-Berry, or those assortments of tiny boxes of cereal, where everybody wanted the Cocoa Puffs, and nobody would eat the Sugar Smacks with the frog in the hat and blue sneakers.

SneakyPete

Toasted or raw?

Non Sequitur

sugar smacks are awesome!

Sneaky I prefer toasted and even put butter on them which is ludicrously indulgent but when I'm working I just eat them raw. And I also love Sugar Smacks but didn't as a kid!

SneakyPete

I like it. They make excellent trail food, too.

tintt

I ended a nearly 20 year abstinence from poptarts about a month ago. Jumbo pack blueberry.

senjohnblutarsky

Unfrosted blueberry are a pain in the ass to find. Not really sure why. Unfrosted strawberry is everywhere. Brown Sugar Cinnamon is where the action is.

Non Sequitur

no love for frosted raspberry?

midlander

i love frosted raspberry. they were in my studio kit right along with the nice staedtler pens

INGREDIENTS: , ENRICHED FLOUR (, WHEAT FLOUR, NIACIN, REDUCED IRON, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID) , CORN SYRUP, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, DEXTROSE, SOYBEAN OIL, PALM OIL, TBHQ, SUGAR, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: , CRACKER MEAL, WHEAT STARCH, SALT, DRIED STRAWBERRIES, DRIED PEARS, DRIED APPLES, CORNSTARCH, LEAVENING (, BAKING SODA, SODIUM ACID PYROPHOSPHATE, MONOCALCIUM PHOSPHATE) , CITRIC ACID, CORN CEREAL, GELATIN, PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED SOYBEAN OIL, CARAMEL COLOR, MODIFIED CORN STARCH, SOY LECITHIN, XANTHAN GUM, MODIFIED WHEAT STARCH, TRICALCIUM PHOSPHATE, COLOR ADDED, TURMERIC COLOR, VITAMIN A PALMITATE, RED #40, NIACINAMIDE, REDUCED IRON, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, YELLOW #6, RIBOFLAVIN, THIAMIN HYDROCHLORIDE, FOLIC ACID, BLUE #1

Non Sequitur

.

Bench

Putting any item into a toaster that has a frosted exterior just seems like a terrible idea. I dont understand how it doesn't just burst into flames...

Oh, Non, that gif is perfect and throws me back to the fun old days on Archinect!

JLC-1

bench, it's the added flame retardant.

Non Sequitur

Donna, it's not yet been 4hrs so I'm not calling the doctor... but considering it.

OTOH, the Avengers Endgame purple carpet looks are gorgeous! I'm going this weekend and will see it in IMAX!!!

Apr 23, 19 10:17 am
axonapoplectic

I occasionally go running with a group of ultramarathoners. They claim that pop tarts are good mid race fuel. That and mashed potatoes.


Architecture does feel like a marathon sometimes. 

Apr 23, 19 1:45 pm
thatsthat

Not an ultra runner (yet) but I'll testify that they are indeed good running fuel. Poptarts and Nutrigrain bars are my go to.

Bench

Personally a fan of the peanut/date bars from Trader Joes for long workouts (cycling). They don't melt in your pocket!

axonapoplectic

I’m definitely not an ultra runner - I typically don’t even do long enough runs to require fueling during the run. But I do like pop tarts. Especially the cinnamon brown sugar.

curtkram

how do you carry, then serve and eat, the mashed potatoes while runn ing?

tintt

They make special camelbacks designed for mashed potatoes. Or they should.

axonapoplectic

For ultras there are aid stations that have all kinds of food. put mashed potatoes into reusable toddler food pouches and carry it on your trail running vest. Some people like to make mashed potato burritos.

midlander

responding to the sincere and interesting post on the challenges of a black architecture student. i don't really want my comment to distract from the poster's purpose so i'm posting here.

https://www.architectmagazine.com/practice/professional-development/the-future-belongs-to-woodbury-university_o

it's disappointing a school that seems specifically targeted towards racial minorities from low income families doesn't do better helping them fit in. it's also outrageous that such a school would put them $130,000 in debt as they start their career.

i feel like he and probably others in his situation are being exploited.

btw i admire the attitude of the poster i'm referring to. i think he will find the professional world more accommodating to him than school has been. he writes more thoughtfully than most architects of any age, and he clearly has an excellent work ethic and positive attitude. a good firm will recognize the value of those qualities and appreciate the challenges he's dealt with.

Apr 24, 19 12:12 pm
Bench

Think I missed this, what is the thread ?

midlander

yes

JLC-1

bump and mini rant; I hate fire suppression "specialists"

Apr 25, 19 1:23 pm
tduds

I just call them Firefighters.

archanonymous

is there such a thing? Usually we do FP as design-build.

Non Sequitur

you mean the sprinkler guys? On larger projects where we have important public spaces, I demand to review the sprinkler shop drawings and will very clearly indicate where I need heads located. Nothing worse than having nice finished ceiling and bulkheads then some wanker puts in a few off-center heads.

JLC-1

sure, "design-build", but do they really design anything? they can't read plans to start with, and make a unbelievable fuss over a couple of soffits, "how are you going to frame this?" " is this 11 3/4" below the ceiling or 12 1/8?"

archanonymous

No they don't, but I find it easier to review shop drawing (making changes and corrections) and make on-the-fly changes in "design-build" projects than traditional type of sub relationships.

SneakyPete

Sprinklers. Ugh.

randomised

I hate people dying in unnecessary and easily prevented fires...

b3tadine[sutures]

totally agree, then when a code official reviews, and points to a deficiency, or code issue in their design, the FP folks decide not to send it on to the architect. Ooops. Turns out they don't know the code like they thought, and cost the projects $50k, plus they don't get held accountable.

archi_dude

I like how reviewing the location of heads relative to architectural elements means you are more intelligent than the specialists engineering a fire suppression system.

b3tadine[sutures]

a chimp with autocad can do the work better than a supression "engineer".

archi_dude

Really? You can size mains and branches correctly, know required heights and spreads for different ceiling systems coupled with occupancies? I’d say that’s a lot harder than doing a layout with the correct egress and ADA bathrooms which is essentially the limits of architectural responsibilities in DB. Of course more and architects are deferring Accessibility code to specialists now as well.

b3tadine[sutures]

how does location of heads relate to what you just wrote? i'll tell you after my last experience, the next time a fire suppression specialist decides they know more about what the code official is stating in the review than i do, i make sure they pay the full cost of the fix. after digging into nfpa 13 and 13r, i'm abundantly more educated on fixture locations, and architecture. as for sizing, give me a week or two, and i'll figure that out too. oh, and by the by, i do all my ada, code analysis, and figure out how to make assemblies work, after fire suppression engineers fuck it up.

archi_dude

I was poking fun at NS’s comment. But I see he isn’t the only all knowing architect here.

curtkram

poke fun at NS for reviewing the shops? The architect should review the shops and where they don't meet design intent (because the sprinkler people don't care about design intent, that's not their job), the architect makes them fix it.

Non Sequitur

Hey, so those 15 email notifications we'rent all for nothing then.

Archi, I've more than once had to step in and save the day for my FP engineers. I'm the one who needs to know where everybody else is putting their shit in addition to my own. I can't expect the FP guys & galls to know the what is a full-height wall vs a ceiling feature vs an atrium vs etc. Same thing with main runs and risers. If you can't think these things through, the FP will just do what's easiest for them, at best. Not "all knowing arch" stuff at all.

b3tadine[sutures]

^this. they don't know a fucking thing about architecture, and don't ask a god damned thing.

Non Sequitur

^indeed. I have a small renovation job where the client insists on that all bidders use the same FP company because only redacted does not fuck up every time the FP needs to be touched.

SneakyPete

Design a post and beam ceiling. Design a coffered ceiling. Now don't research the sprinkler obstruction rules. Don't worry, the sprinklers are design build. Now enjoy unemployment when your boss sees the result. Therefore: Sprinklers. Ugh.

JLC-1

update: this guys are good, received the first draft , and they drew on top of my lighting plan! easy redlines.

hey Pete, have all your bosses such a thin skin? unemployed because of a couple of sprinkler heads? that's a bit harsh....

Non Sequitur

maybe my math is broken here, but we’ve had 2 1000-year floods in my region in the last 3 years. Maybe we need to come up with a new term. My vote is either “a fuktonne of water” or “stormy-mc-storm face”. 



Apr 30, 19 7:37 am
Non Sequitur

Errata, that should be floody mc flood face.

randomised

You should be okay for the next 2000 years or so, lucky you!

Non Sequitur

Is that how it works? Maybe I should buy some property on the river bank then. Looks like people will be desperate to sell next week.

Thousand day floods, not thousand year.

atelier nobody

Meh. I'm in Southern California, where we're a century or two overdue for a 10,000 year earthquake.

Apr 30, 19 9:33 pm
JLC-1

it's unbelievable how much nicer this forum is by just ignoring 2 or 3 overanxious users  

May 1, 19 4:49 pm
Non Sequitur

it’s pouring rain outside and I’m about to go replace some bad wiring in my exposed outdoor light. No reason why I’m doing now besides, we’ll, I just remembered it needed doing. Stay tuned tomorrow to see if I make it out ok!  

May 1, 19 8:27 pm
liberty bell

Stay alive, please, Non Seq.


Every single thing in my life (except my husband and son) sucks right now. I’m so angry. And tired. 


Architecture is a marathon. Or better: it’s like that Steven King story The Long Walk. Did anyone ever read that story? Harrowing.

May 1, 19 9:59 pm
Non Sequitur

I'm fine. Turns out the light housing is leaking and rain water pooled inside the light socket. So nice corrosion on the bulb bottom tho. I should probably go shut the power to it... oh well. I'm starting to get a decent project pile now and they all look like early summer deadlines. Going to be a busy may-june but right now, lots of frustration as we wait for all pieces to fall together.

SneakyPete

Long walk is a great story. Hope your current slog ends differently.

archanonymous

Gaaaaah cost estimators are the worst. Quick - what are your cost estimator pet peeves? I bet i'm dealing with every one of them right now.


My (least) favorite when I propose a VE item, "Oh, switching from solid surface to laminate isn't really going to save you any money."

Me, "Okay guys, so I assume it doesn't add money to go to marble?"

May 2, 19 7:04 pm
Rusty!

There is a trick to this. Have both SS and PLAM in project, and when they say making it all PLAM is not going to save you any money, then you propose all of it to be SS. I wish I was kidding.

In the last restaurant I did, the client said granite table tops were too expensive. I sourced them for less than crappy laminate tops with banded aluminum edging.

Rusty!'s trick may work during estimating, but then when the GMP comes back millions over budget and the contractor starts a VE list ... suddenly there is a lot of money to be saved by making them all PLAM. It's all talk until the sub has actually signed and that's when it gets real. BTW, this is why IPD is such a mess.

atelier nobody

I had a project like that where the GMP came in more than 50% over the 50% CD estimate - I was very, very happy the estimate had been done by the contractor, not by me. (FWIW, the owner accepted the higher cost without batting an eye, then went back to their donors. I really miss working with the Catholic Church before the sex abuse scandals started...)

JLC-1

I'm sorry you all have to deal with budgets.

Non Sequitur

Before the scandals starter? sex-abuse in the church is as old as the church itself.

Non Sequitur

For one repeat client, I typically always spec stainless-steel handrails for everything knowing that it'll be VE. It's low-hanging fruit and makes us look like we're able to make concessions. Fine, we can use painted steel pipe in the exit stairs but we'll keep SST in the lobbies. Everyone is happy.

atelier nobody

NS, fair enough - before they started having to pay out all the settlements, when they were still made of money. Want a new 200-bed skilled nursing facility? No problem, here's a check.

tduds

"the GMP came in more than 50% over the 50% CD estimate" ...makes sense. That's 100%

joseffischer

Tduds, thank you!

Non Sequitur, help me understand the rationale of designing a project with the intent to inflate the project cost and be over budget so that you can make concessions later to get the budget back in line. Is it such a novel idea to design to a budget the first time? That way the client doesn't think you are just wasting their money with unnecessary costs and you aren't wasting everyone's time and fee with VE meetings. 

I'm only halfway being facetious here. I also fully acknowledge I have very little experience with cost estimating. I do get that it is very common to have a couple of things in mind that you can VE if needed to bring costs down ... but at the same time, why can't we be more accurate with our estimates and stick closer to the client's budget? Is that simply too naive of me?

May 3, 19 3:11 pm
archi_dude

It’s also in the AIA docs to do this. Redesign would then be free. There was an article a while back that the biggest frustration people had with architects is that they don’t watch costs. The quote something along the lines of “they design you something you fall in love with but can’t actually accomplish, and you end up having to redesign to something sub par with builder inputs that come off as just standard. So if you end up with a standard design designed by a builder many people wonder why you hired an architect at all.

Non Sequitur

EI, as I stated above, this is for one particular repeat client. They do their own budget and under the table negotiation with the trades. We have almost 20y history with this client (I personally have 8 active projects with them atm) so it's a bit of an inside joke.  We don't typically have budgets with our commercial project in the this case but otherwise, we don't do these games.

edit, I was also being halfway facetious.  We're normally very budget conscious.



I get it, I'm only "calling you out" because you offered the example that triggered the question today. Sounds like it's not a big deal in your case. 

However, for a lot of the architects I've worked with over the years, this is a common theme ... put in some extra fluff knowing full well that you won't get it because you'll have to cut it later to hit the budget. There are two terrible assumptions in this mentality: 1) that you always have to cut something, and 2) that the amount of stuff you have to cut is equal to the extra fluff you stuck in there. First, why would you need to cut anything if you came in at or under budget? Second, if you're over budget, you're going to have to cut the amount of stuff that gets you back to your budget ... this doesn't necessarily match the amount of extra fluff you designed into the project. Finally, if the amount of fluff equals the amount you have to cut to get you to the budget, why include the fluff in the first place!? Just don't put it in, and you won't have to go through the effort. 

archi_dude, if you can find a link to that article, I'd be interested in reading it.

Non Sequitur

I get that EI. The one place I consistently see things deliberately added, for the sake of being removed later, is with the int des department. Oh, you have 3 proposal board but one is tots bad or over-priced, or boring as fuck, etc... just to make the decision to the others "easier".

I would kill for that from the int designers. At least then they are looking for the client to make a decision, they are just guiding the client to the one they wanted from the start. Not ideal, but I don't see it so much as them failing to do their job. 

The designers I'm used to working with (for example) carry two tiles in the documents ... the one they really want, and the alternate because they can't be bothered to figure out if one fits in the budget and they are hoping the second will be cheaper. Then they want to list about a dozen alternates for the contractor to bid to help figure out which finishes they can get. The only difference in these alternates is an f-ing color.

curtkram

the costs you get from a contractor aren't all that hard. it's not like they spend a day looking over your drawing set and actually know what the building is going to cost. VE isn't just getting the owner or architect to make concessions, it gets the contractor to make concessions as well, and having something extra in the project is a way to have a conversation about how you're really going to get to a working number (that will still be low, because the contractor relies on change orders to keep themselves above water.)

mightyaa

Oddly, I notice almost the opposite. Architects assuming the client would not want to spend that much on something. It crops up in litigation often enough to stand out. An example might be stainless handrails on the exterior or precast treads… The architect knows it’ll perform better than painted steel or concrete pan, but goes ahead and details the cheaper product/installation without ever really consulting their client. I see architects cutting costs more using cheap, subpar design choices regularly under the misguided notion they can mind-read how the client would judge value.

tduds

Did the Sawtooth Detail homework kid get scared off? Looks like the thread was deleted.

May 8, 19 2:28 pm
tduds

also. bump.

Bloopox

Yeah. I mentioned that I've seen my students post their homework here before, and that might have scared them off. Or maybe it was the other 7 people also pointing out the student's lameness.

tduds

Just once I'd like a wayward undergrad to actually contribute to this forum, rather than milking us for free advice and leaving forever after 3 posts.

Non Sequitur

That's a big ask there T. Start small with the wishes.

Bloopox

I don't even so much mind the all take and no give thing as much as that so many of the students come here without even having given their assignments a start. If they were asking targeted questions about tough aspects of something they were clearly trying to work through, then I'd feel like helping. When they title their posts "HELP" and then just state the assignment, that just makes me disgusted at their helplessness, and their wasting time and tuition on something they're not working at and are just having others do their work. What happens when they graduate and get to an architecture firm and get assigned some sections? Are they gonna post it here and hope someone does it for them before the deadline ("HELP!  I have WORK to do and I don't know how to do it because I never did any of my own homework in architecture school!"? AARGH!

SneakyPete

Generally I post my redlines on Reddit and they take it from there. Hasn't failed me yet and I've been unemployed for YEARS.

atelier nobody

Bloopox, sadly I find the same is true of many (thankfully not all) of the recent graduates in my office. I'm supposed to be mentoring them, but some don't seem to understand that mentoring != just giving them the answers, and give me quizzical looks when I tell them things like "try chapter __ of the Code."

Non Sequitur

Atelier, same here... The typical question is not about how to do thing, but more along the lines of "where can I find an example to copy". For one particular junior staff... I swear, every-time a code question comes up I talk it over and I stop myself and ask why have they not walked the 12 feet to the bookcase and looked it up? I can see you have 14 open tabs in google chrome asking various CAD and detail questions... I guess all our jobs are safe for a while.

Bloopox

My office doesn't currently have anyone who started with less than 5 years of experience or at younger than 32. I guess I'm losing patience and turning into a curmudgeon, but my current philosophy is let somebody else's younger, more energetic and idealistic firm weed out or rehabilitate the ones who can't walk to the bookcase and crack open a code book, or can't draw a section of an existing building with completely exposed structure, from photos that clearly show the entire section. Hmmph.

citizen

Ah, the mystery of the deleted thread explained, sort of. 

What I find so funny is that the same kids claiming utter helplessness with the simplest academic task could find three different after-hours parties in Kuala Lumpur in under 45 seconds on their phone.

b3tadine[sutures]

citizen, yeah, but these same young people also went to Fyre Festival, and bought into that lamo asswhipe.

Fast food, instant service, just add water, no waiting necessary. And a complete meltdown if not. If this is the present, just imagine the future.

midlander

these questions worry me less then the generic "hi, i want to be an architect. should i go to GSD or AA, and how much money will I make in 5 years?" those ones who don't have any clue how to run their lives must have a tough time.

citizen

Lest the dog-pile get too deep, I should add that I teach youngsters regularly, and there are many really awesome kids out there: smart, hard-working, sincere, diligent people. Unfortunately, the small sample we typically get here are often... not. (Sawtooth guy seemed to show some promise.)

geezertect

You're seeing the end results of the K-12 educational establishment's approach. Everything is group decision making and collaborative problem solving. Thinking on one's own is regarded as selfish or arrogant or elitist or, god forbid, less than fully "inclusive" (whatever the hell that means, anyway). It's really not the fault of this generation. It's how they've been socialized.

Who is the K-12 educational establishment? If there is any problem with the K-12 educational system it is one where a parent can come in and demand a grade change just because their precious son or daughter should get an exception. Even in those cases where the administrators back up the teacher's decision ... usually the parents starts applying local political pressure to the point that the easiest way out is to just to figure out a way to get the kid the grade their parent wants for them, and let the next teacher worry about it. Before I blame the kids, I look at the parents.

SneakyPete

I think what geezer is trying to say is ... that it's his generation's fault?

Wow, geezer, you're old! ;-)

geezertect

Yup, we boomers really fucked things up. In the name of kindness, we tried to pretend that you can have a functioning modern economy and society where nobody's feelings ever get hurt. Standards got eliminated and everybody got a participation ribbon. Some kids with severe mental deficiencies or behavioral problems got mainstreamed, because we wanted to pretend that everyone is the same. No dummies or smart kids. Group projects meant that the smart kids came up with the answers and the dumb/lazy ones in the group got credit too, because how can you give different grades for a group project? They get into the workforce and expect it to function the way school did. Why wouldn't they? Nobody told them life didn't quite work that way. Now we have the AOC's of the world with schemes for three hots and a cot for everyone who works or not, including those who don't work because they are "unwilling".

I agree with geezer to a degree. Standardization in the US education system has implicitly put forward an expectation that students will be taught for the test. So by the time they get to an undergraduate design program it has been engrained in them that an "A" is something you deserve for doing what you are expected to do (playing it safe is excellence or we are making you into labor)- which is really a "C". In some programs it's gotten to the point that stude nt look at the work that was completed a semester or year prior and look for the high grades, knowing that's an "A" project, so I can copy it. You should see the expressions on their faces when you tell them the site and prompt are differ from last year (but the concepts are the same). It's difficult to unlearn so much of what they are taught in so many instances and it has to happen very early in the process- like starting day 1.

jla-x

I agree with geezer...meritocracy was replaced by mediocrity...coddled kids with helicopter parents doing everything to spare them any amount of failure at the expense of character building...it’s not surprise that when they finally leave home they want to replace their overbearing mothers with an overbearing state that pays for their shit.

b3tadine[sutures]

Whooooooa. K-12 if anything, has become much more regressive. The existing administrative apparatus is incapable of dealing with the totalitarian attitudes of parents. Secondary effects are lack of support for teaching as an institution, which makes it nearly impossible to deal with teaching, and mentoring students in an effective manner. So, what is the end result? Students are more inclined to be "classified" rather than having a empathetic methodology employed. Black students are more likely to be escalated as "problems". Parents are incapable of providing any real parenting - thanks capitalism - and are more likely to force their children into special needs options.

b3tadine[sutures]

Whooooooa. K-12 if anything, has become much more regressive. The existing administrative apparatus is incapable of dealing with the totalitarian attitudes of parents. Secondary effects are lack of support for teaching as an institution, which makes it nearly impossible to deal with teaching, and mentoring students in an effective manner. So, what is the end result? Students are more inclined to be "classified" rather than having a empathetic methodology employed. Black students are more likely to be escalated as "problems". Parents are incapable of providing any real parenting - thanks capitalism - and are more likely to force their children into special needs options.

I don't think I'm in disagreement with geezer's post, I largely agree to a certain extent, but wanted to clarify that I don't think there is some coordinated group of educators trying to teach mediocrity and giving out the same grades to all just because the students showed up. External pressures (parents, politics) have a bigger effect than they should in K-12 educational policies.

archi_dude

I’m curious how capitalism has made parents incapable of parenting.

b3tadine[sutures]

Really? Let's see, most parents are stressed the fuck out; increasing debt, over-worked, more competition for face-time, oxy-contin, increased youth suicide rates, fewer real connections.....= short list.

archi_dude

As unfortunate as that is that some people do not have control over themselves at least they aren’t starving like the overall population in
your alternatives Venezuela?

b3tadine[sutures]

Please with that Venezuela claptrap, it's not cute, it's fucking demeaning, and lacks any kind of intellectual rigor. Kleptocratic Capitalism is the fucking other side of the coin of Authoritarian Marxism.

archi_dude

Oh no I agree that capitalism needs to be regulated and reigned in from what we let it become but we have the processes in place to do that. Just curious why switching to a state run economy would be any better than the current system. Instead of having a system where companies are private with a government to make framework laws to keep them from becoming too evil, we’d have a scenario where those companies are the government.

b3tadine[sutures]

I'm not calling for an outright state run economy, but if we don't create a significantly different, regulated capitalism, needs to occur, or else state run is what the proletariat will get.

archi_dude

Here here.

archi_dude

God dam auto correct and beer, *hear hear.

liberty bell

Beer beer.

Non Sequitur

Beer works 100% of the time. Btw, big beer festival for me tonight.

Happy Mother's Day.

I posted this pic of my boy 13 years ago (page 3 of TC, I think):

Here he is now, in his school play:

Yesterday I had the serious conversation that most parents of teens in this country have to have: I told him if a shooter shows up at his high school, I want him to run and hide. I don't want him to be a hero, to sacrifice himself like Kendrick Castillo did. I want him, more than anything, to always come home safe to me, and if that means running away then that's what he should do, because I love him more than can be described.

This country is sick. We're sick, and greedy, and I'm hopeless about our future, almost. My amazing kid, and his amazing, diverse, earth-caring, non-judgmental, embracing of difference friends give me a glimmer.

Happy Mother's Day.


May 12, 19 2:33 pm
Non Sequitur

Happy mother’s day indeed. Mine is about to turn 3 at the end of this month so fingers are crossed that’s not a bridge I need to cross in the near future. Side note, that nirvana In Utero shirt in the 2nd pic is fitting, no?

archanonymous

Happy mother's day. Also, cute Bull Terrier! (... and kid, I suppose :) )

mantaray
Whoa Donna he got tall!!

Happy Mother’s Day :-) I spent mine trying not to murder my partner. Yay!
May 13, 19 12:37 pm
tintt

I spent Mother's day driving across three states and hitting a deer in the last one. People are all ok. Deer and car are not. 

May 13, 19 1:06 pm
jla-x

Damn. Glad you are ok. Deer are prolific jay walkers...

curtkram

glad you're safe at least. Probably needed a new car an yway.

geezertect

Deer are so stupid they are as likely to jump in the direction of danger as away from it. Kind of like architects.

JLC-1

A deer jumped from a high bank to my hood, bounced and fell into a ditch where he broke his neck. It's like 400 pound chickens, stupid.

tintt

JLC, wow! geezer, pretty much...

If you want to collide with a deer, cancel your collision coverage. Don't ask me how I know.

JLC-1

Can't tell you how many are around right now eating that sweet grass 6 inches from the edge of pavement, mix that with the elk migration and the rockfall season, lovely!

Non Sequitur

Good to hear no-one is injured, but hopefully no brews were lost as well. 

I recall very well that time in undergrad (4th year, circa 2006) when I would routinely drive home around 4 to 5am a few times per week. I fell asleep at the wheel for a second or so and woke up with a deer in the middle of the road a few feet from my bumper. (for those asking, I was driving a stylish 1990 Mercury sedan... crucial part of the story I am sure). I managed to stop since it was a residential area and was not speeding but that shook me up. 

I stopped doing those drives after that.

tintt

I drove while asleep once. Eastern Arizona on a curvy mountain road at 2 am. I'm lucky I woke up. I take it much more seriously now and always travel with coffee.

I was a little bored, so I went into the blogs page, sorted by most recent comment, and started flagging all the spam posts. It was like moving a piece of furniture to find all the dust bunnies that have been hiding under there. Sorry, not sorry, to whoever has to go through and clean that up now. 

May 14, 19 11:39 am
tduds

I interact with this guy way too frequently: 

https://local.theonion.com/man-who-s-been-in-a-bunch-of-buildings-figures-he-d-be-1834753863

May 14, 19 6:51 pm
Steeplechase

I’m sure he’ll be a Certified Professional Building Designer in no time.

Well done, Steeplechase.

citizen

That piece is fantastic. Imagine what a great client he'd be! Lots of inherent 'knowledge' and no discernible 'income.'

Non Sequitur

Markers and trace (not yellow unfortunately) are out.  I'm designing something.  Odd right? Nothing special, but it's a break from months of CM stuff.

May 15, 19 10:19 am
jla-x

made the decision today to begin obtaining my contractors license...signed up for test prep classes...hoping to be a design/build firm by next year...excited:)

May 15, 19 8:26 pm
jla-x

Designer led design build is too rare...need to change that!

curtkram

the insurance requirements to be a contractor are very costly here .

jla-x

Insurance and bonding is expensive...but equipment, trucks, etc is the real killer. I figure I will rent equipment to start...then slowly start buying stuff. A forklift alone can run like 60k and up....

liberty bell

Me today, and every day in the foreseeable future:




May 16, 19 9:29 am
Non Sequitur

is that top workplace appropriate tho?

/s

As a menopausal woman, Non, I'm basically wearing a sleeveless (or cap sleeve) shirt under a cardigan or blazer every damn day, and taking on/off the top layer half a dozen times during the workday. Menopause is pretty awful. Add to that the abortion bullshit and how busy everyone is at work (as well as some really time-consuming challenges at my non-profit) and I'm on the verge of losing it at any given second.

Non Sequitur

Donna... that little /s at the end of my comment indicates sarcasm. I read the news, plenty of people on my side are also pissed (we even had our annual ignorance rally last Thursday).

I saw the /s Non, but I'm also just stating facts. TC is one of few places I go ahead and say what I want, even if I'm posting as me. B/c fuck everything right now.

Non Sequitur

I understand and respect that. Just tossing in something for shits & giggles because frustration is rising on one of my projects.

jla-x

Pissed at what?

Non Sequitur

^Alabama nonsense. we get the news too...

jla-x

The left frames this as an anti-women argument when it has nothing to do with women’s rights...it has to do with the timeline of what constitutes personhood (scientific and philosophical issue)...and the regulation of what services medical providers can provide (regulatory issue). I don’t understand why people get angry that others have different opinions on this. You are entitled to your opinion...not entitled to anyone else’s. In a democracy the majority opinion writes the legislation...rather than yelling (not you...celebrities etc) try to change the opinion with discourse and logical reasoning if you must...

jla-x

People just aren’t listening to each other anymore...social media is literally reinforcing echo chambers via algorithms....an issue like this is very very easy to see validity in both sides of the debate.

Non Sequitur

Very little validity in what is currently proposed Jla, very little. Just a very badly masked religious trampling of established rights. Generic statements like the one you just made create the illusion that there is a debate to be had at all.

jla-x

Laws against killing 1 year olds are not rooted in religion. The pro life argument simply states that personhood begins at conception because there is no other scientific threshold that can be found or argued. Consciousness? We don’t know when consciousness begins. Independence from mother? That’s like at least 18 years off. Viability? A premature baby is less developed than a 9 month baby in utero...the argument is very grey. Only 18% of Americans agree with late term abortions...ok, so if third trimester is no no, then what is the exact moment when it goes from being ok to not being ok? It’s not a religious issue it is a scientific and philosophical one.

Non Sequitur

Jla, see my point above about the illusion of debate. It is religious bullshit hidden as fake science. I won't keep beating this dead horse (and spam Donna's inbox). It's not hard to see why the rest of the educated and scientific world laugh at this nonsense. Stop now before you make an even greater fool of yourself.

jla-x

It’s also not a political issue. It’s funny though how certain “rights” (the ones we like) are absolute...while others (the ones they like) are disposable. Jus saying. People need to stop being so partisan and start listening to each other or this country will be in civil war in a few decades..

jla-x

Actually most scientists agree that human life begins during cell division. There is no scientific conclusion that it begins at any other point. Central nervous system? What percentage of development counts.00001%, 2%....The nerve cells start dividing very quickly...100% developed brain? That’s like sometime in late teens.... etc.

Non Sequitur

I don't listen to religious backed arguments,either bad or good. Fuck those illusions and the idiots who stand behind them. All I know is that my son would not be alive had it not been for all the healthcare advances on the women's side of things following their decision to move beyond silly pro-life arguments.

jla-x

Politics makes these positions easy though...sign up for the bundle package and we do the thinking for ya!

Non Sequitur

I'm not singed onto any package. Makes for very frustrating non-sequitur (hey-oh) leaps when my friends try to talk politics with me.

jla-x

I am not making a religious argument. The only scientific Fact...science relies on fact...is that life begins (starts it’s course) at cell division. That’s not debatable. The philosophical argument on one side is that it’s ok to end that life at certain stages...the other side says that it’s not.

jla-x

I wasn’t saying you are man...just generally how things get lumped into politics

jla-x

Politics and religion cloud the issue

jla-x

We accept killing life all the time...we as a society kill insects without bating an eye...but hold killing of cuddly animals like dogs in contempt. Why is a dog more valuable then a fly? We made the whole thing up. Why is it ok to eat tuna but not dolphin? I just get annoyed with the pro-abortion people who hide the reality that abortion is killing...it is. To bad if that makes someone feel bad. Fact. Whether or not we can kill life in certain situations is a cultural and philosophical issue and that’s debatable. Framing this as women’s heath, pretending that it’s not life because of some arbitrary threshold, etc...is dishonest and anti-intellectual

tduds

In a democracy the majority opinion writes the legislation...

False

It’s also not a political issue.

Also False

tduds

Maybe instead of arguing every fucking point from some absurd level of philosophical remove, you could take ten minutes to learn a little history. As usual, our points are so out of touch with reality that - while perhaps rhetorically useful - you mostly come off as a know-nothing know-it-all.

tduds

Nevertheless, independent of all philosophical / pseudo-scientific pontificating about when "life" begins, the simple reality on the ground is that restricting safe, legal access to abortion 1) does nothing to reduce the rates of abortion and 2) increases the rates of women dying from unsafe abortions and other related issues.

You can ignore everything else, because this is the true fact: This law will kill women.

jla-x

Killing elephants and cutting down redwoods is immoral.

Killing puppy immoral

Killing fetus is ok.

Killing fly ok

Killing mice ok (unless in a petstore cage being sold as pet mice...)

Why?

These are opinions that have zero factual basis and are 100% rooted in some cultural and personal value system. If someone holds a fetus in the same regards as an elephant they are a know nothing...basically, agree with my arbitrarily rooted value system or you are bad. Sophisticated argument. Sounds kinda religious actually.

tduds

"...*your* points..." Not "our points." Damn typo, can't edit.

tduds

Again it has nothing to do with my or anyone's regard for whatever life or non-life and everything to do with the simple reality that abortion bans don't stop abortion but do kill women. The law fails at it's stated purpose, and this result is well-known enough that any legislative support for abortion bans are, in my conclusion, obviously about something else.

You're arguing the wrong point and you're arguing it poorly. You're wrong twice.

jla-x: "Actually most scientists agree that human life begins during cell division." Citation, please. Although it doesn't matter. If a fetus is a person, fine. Hello, little human: I didn't give you permission to reside in my body, so you're out. That's my right as the owner of *my* body.

Non Sequitur

Hi Donna, sorry for the spam.

Jla, nice strawman position.  Must be nice to boil everything to simple little boxes while ignoring the real points.


jla-x

Tduds, philosophical remove is what we need in our society. We need to remove ourselves from our own bias to understand others.

also, jla-x, really: pregnancy is a women's health issue. Abortion is part of the healthcare that addresses women's health issues. How can you say it's wrong to frame abortion as a women's health issue when *that is literally what it is*? Women with ectopic pregnancies die. Women with gestational diabetes die. Women with ruptured placentas die. If you think those women *should* die, because of some "god's plan" or whatever, then you're the one making it a religious debate. Which it is not.

tduds

It's baffling to me that, as the token libertarian, you're not fervently pro-choice. Of course this is just more evidence that you're arguing from a Devil's Advocate position because you have no skin in the game and would rather criticize (incorrectly, I might add) the rhetoric of people you actually agree with because... well I dunno maybe you're just an asshole?

jla-x

So answer this....what stage during a pregnancy should abortion be illegal to preform? Why?

Non Sequitur

^what ever the Canadian law says, because we're better than y'all. How that was determined tho, I don't know and honestly don't care... and for what it's worth, I'd totally eat a dolphin steak. (see previous comment about non-sequitur points).

tduds

At any point up to and including labor. 

Because that's a healthcare decision made between a woman and her doctor(s), often for extremely personal and complex reasons that heavily weigh concerns about the welfare and/or survival of both the mother and the fetus.

But that's just my opinion. American law has long decided that third trimester abortions are, in some cases, not allowed. I don't really know enough to say why, but I assume there's a compromise involved there that works for most people.

I 100% agree with tduds. At any point in their life a person should be allowed to make their own decisions about their body. Unless someone is mentally unfit and under conservatorship because of it.

tduds

"philosophical remove is what we need in our society." 

 Nah. Historical, political, civic and scientific literacy is what we need in our society. The choice to argue from a remove without immersing yourself in the facts on the ground is simply evidence that the decision, whichever way it goes, will not affect you personally.

jla-x

Donna, there are exceptions for medical issues where a woman’s life is in jeopardy. Again, it depends how you view life/personhood. If you view the fetus as being a person, then their right to life liberty etc comes into play. Rights are extended to them, and they would be protected by the same laws that protect a 2 yo or a 21yo. I know people on both sides...women...and the pro life people are not trying restrict women’s rights, but rather extend protection to early stage humans who they truly care about with the same urgency as an environmentalist who cares about protecting redwoods. We have to stop demonizing each other. I also understand that women want autonomy over their reproductive systems. Im simply saying that Both sides have viable arguments.

tduds

jla, now you answer this: If laws banning abortion do nothing to lower the incidence of abortion, and if the religious right was not opposed to Roe v. Wade until well after the decision (see my links above), what other motivations could there be for their incessant harping on this issue for the past 35 years?

jla-x

Tduds, you think a person should be able to kill a baby during labor? That’s incredibly sick and twisted.

jla-x

I’m hoping I read that wrong.

tduds

Oh look who's appealing to emotions now.

jla-x

I think that if someone comes onto my property with the intent to cause me harm I should be able to shoot them. My opinion. I don’t understand how a person who would allow infanticide would have such a problem with firearms. Seems like the pro-lifers, catholic turn the other cheek people, would be more aligned with that position no?

tduds

This. 

Law. 

Will. 

Kill. 

Women.

My one and only reasoning for opposing the law. All my other comments have been (apparently failed) attempts to point out the bad faith justification of the pro-life movement. From here on I'm only responding to comments that address this very simple reasoning.

Non Sequitur

who knew that by mid 2019, the centre of intellectual discussion would emerge from a few dozen white christian men in the cesspool of Alabama. Why don't they arm the fetuses in utero so they can defend themselves? No need to change anything if you allow them their 2A. AMIRIGHT?

Bad faith justification is the only kind of justification the pro-forced-birthers have, tduds. Don't call them pro-life; they don't care about humans post-birth. The *only* thing they care about is forcing pregnant women to have no choice but to give birth.

tduds

Really saying the quiet part loud on this one:

 "Chambliss, responding to the IVF argument from Smitherman, cites a part of the bill that says it applies to a pregnant woman. "The egg in the lab doesn’t apply. It’s not in a woman. She’s not pregnant."

(https://twitter.com/lyman_brian/status/1128413792801521664)

tduds

So, now, from a point of PHilOsOpHicAl ReMovE, why is an embryo in a woman's womb deserving of rights, but a genetically identical embryo in a lab not?

jla-x

“jla, now you answer this: If laws banning abortion do nothing to lower the incidence of abortion, and if the religious right was not opposed to Roe v. Wade until well after the decision (see my links above), what other motivations could there be for their incessant harping on this issue for the past 35 years?“

It’s funny that I haven’t even stated my personal opinion, just rhetorical arguments, and everyone is automatically positioning me to avoid the hard questions I posed.

Religion, morality, philosophy, sonogram technology 3-D sonograms, science regarding consciousness, Internet, etc have all led to a new wave of pro life people. A recent study has shown that young people are more pro-life than older people despite dips in religion. When you see a 5mo fetus moving around to avoid the touch of the cold sonogram machine...and see the smiles and facial expressions in real time 3-D it certainly tugs the heart strings.

The issue now is being revamped mostly in reaction to the rhetoric from far left politicians that support late term abortion. Most people do not. 18% only do I believe. When one side pushes into taboo territory they incite reactions. Even if the push was from one or two people....

Preservation of life is what the debate is about. Why is “your” tendency to want to preserve a redwood less valid than someone else’s tendency to want to preserve a fetus?

jla-x

So, now, from a point of PHilOsOpHicAl ReMovE, why is an embryo in a woman's womb deserving of rights, but a genetically identical embryo in a lab not? I think it is.

jla-x

“Bad faith justification is the only kind of justification the pro-forced-birthers have, tduds. Don't call them pro-life; they don't care about humans post-birth. The *only* thing they care about is forcing pregnant women to have no choice but to give birth.”

Maybe some people. So what. The question is...does a human in early stages of development have personhood? Simple as that. If your answer is yes, then you aren’t allowed to kill people. If your answer is no, then you need to justify why they don’t, and define at what stage personhood is granted. What is the criteria for personhood. If you cannot do this you don’t have an argument, you have an opinion.

jla-x

If the fetus has personhood, their right to life liberty superceeds your right to terminate them. Does a toddler have personhood? Yes...Should the state require that parents care for them? Feed them? Isn’t this requiring adults to do things with their bodies in the interest of a dependent? Pro-abortion- but it’s my body! Pro-life- no it’s a different body housed in your body!

Non Sequitur

jla, remember like 50 replies earlier when I recommended you stop or else risk making yourself look even bad? Perhaps you should have listened. No one is buying your points and debating you on this would be giving yours (and all other who share such misinformed views) a false sense that they are worthy of debate.

tduds

"It’s funny that I haven’t even stated my personal opinion, just rhetorical arguments, and everyone is automatically positioning me to avoid the hard questions I posed."

https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/

tduds

Also I called you out on this specifically, way up there:


tduds

"If your answer is no, then you need to justify why they don’t, and define at what stage personhood is granted." 

I did, and you called it sickening. Funny how fast your high-minded stoicism collapses when it risks undermining your case.

tduds

FWIW I'm not trying to change your mind. I just think it would be irresponsible to let your inane ramblings go unchallenged, lest someone stumble upon them and think, for lack of counterpoint, they're reasonable statements.

jla-x

So. My opinion is that killing a baby during labor is no different than killing an adult. It’s actually kinda worse.

jla-x

You failed to state why it’s different. Should we just legalize all forms of murder?

tduds

I did. "Because that's a healthcare decision made between a woman and her doctor(s), often for extremely personal and complex reasons that heavily weigh concerns about the welfare and/or survival of both the mother and the fetus. 

 But that's just my opinion. American law has long decided that third trimester abortions are, in some cases, not allowed. I don't really know enough to say why, but I assume there's a compromise involved there that works for most people."

Yes, jla-x, if you want to say a fetus is a person and has personhood, fine. That means my right - as a person - is to prevent any other person who is impinging on my rights from doing so by whatever means necessary. If a fetus, or a blastocyt, or a baby, is occupying my body against my express permission then I get to evict it. Period. Abortion protects my right to my property.

tduds

Maybe you can shoot the fetus? It's "tresspassing" on your "property" jla, please advise.

tduds

We still haven't addressed the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS fact that this law, regardless of anyone's opinion on fetal personhood, will not stop abortions from happening. It will simply result in women taking higher risks to obtain them, which will lead to more women dying. 

If you value life, you need to acknowledge that abortion bans result in a higher loss of life. Full stop.

Non Sequitur

Tduds, I've already made the claim that fetuses deserve to have their 2a respected and should be armed in utero.

tduds

Yes I'm refusing to let the debate get away from the starting point. jla rants have a tendency to wander into whichever rhetorical arena he feels he has the upper hand, and I'm not going to entertain it.

jla-x

In all honesty...if a newborn baby and mother were in the ocean and you could only save one i as would most normal people try to save the baby first. Instinct. You?

tduds

I'd ask the mom.

tduds

She'd probably say something like "I find your hypothetical scenarios overly specific and suspiciously slanted to favor one side of the non-hypothetical outcome." or "Take my baby" idk

jla-x

If she said to save her over her baby she would be a shitty person. Jus sayin.

jla-x

It’s just human/animal instinct to protect the young. Legality aside, Abortion should be considered taboo as it goes against our natural instincts. Whether or not it should be illegal is debatable and complex...and I do see the body autonomy side of the argument as valid...but I find it troubling that in the political fervor the left has tried to shed the negative/scientific reality that abortion is at the end of the day the killing of a life, and that anyone who disagrees on a moral basis is somehow evil and dubious...as if they are the drafters of true morality. Lol.

Non Sequitur

wrong.

tduds

"It’s funny that I haven’t even stated my personal opinion, just rhetorical arguments, and everyone is automatically positioning me to avoid the hard questions I posed." 

Never forget.

liberty bell

jla-x, do you live in the real world? I do, and I had to have this actual conversation with my OB when I was pregnant: if I’m in distress during delivery I want you to save me, not the baby. My reasons are my own, but they have to do with responsibilities I have to care for *people who already exist in my life* who would be in dire straits if I die. Many women would choose to have the baby saved, many wouldn’t. The point is it’s MY right to protect MY life. I
f you think I’m a monster because of it I really can’t emphasize how much I don’t give a fuck.

jla-x

If your life were in danger I would agree with you. There are exemptions for those rare medical scenarios in the law. If a person is pregnant for 8 months and decides to abort a fully developed baby for non medical reasons then I have little sympathy for their case.

Non Sequitur

^which is why no one cares about your opinion or want your sympathy.

tduds

"If a person is pregnant for 8 months and decides to abort a fully developed baby for non medical reasons..." 

Please provide evidence of this occurring in significant numbers.

tduds

Propaganda shapes opinion. Please provide evidence of this occurring in significant numbers. Please provide evidence of a prevalence of behavior that necessitates legislation which will prevent it (Ignoring for a moment the fact that *this* legislation will not prevent it so I can counter your implausible hypothetical for a moment)

tduds

“The baby is born,” he declared. “The mother meets with the doctor. They take care of the baby. They wrap the baby beautifully. And then the doctor and the mother determine whether or not they will execute the baby.”

 ...This, for example, is an outright lie, repeated by the president, that no doubt shaped a few opinions.

An opinion based on a false information is an incorrect opinion.

This is so good I have to repeat it: "Please provide evidence of a prevalence of behavior that necessitates legislation which will prevent it (Ignoring for a moment the fact that *this* legislation will not prevent it so I can counter your implausible hypothetical for a moment)"

jla-x

The blackface guy...very credible fella

jla-x

Tduds, beasteality is rare too, but we have laws unfortunately

jla-x

Jk jk

tduds

Please provide evidence that late-term, non-medical abortions occur in similar numbers to incidents of bestiality.

jla-x

NY and a few others passes laws allowing/easing late term abortion recently....both sides playing this thing for political gains...

And, I mean I can't stop: Outside of medical emergencies, which are common because pregnancy is a dangerous health situation, the reasons someone *might* feel compelled to abort very late in a pregnancy come about *because abortion is stigmatized as baby murder*. If women needing abortions weren't demonized by the right wing evangelicals (solely as a way to get votes, know some history it's purely about politics) then they would access them when the fetus is still smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. But we make it SO hard, and make women SO scared, that many can't even face it until it's too late. Kermit Gosnell wouldn't have existed *if we didn't demonize abortion*.

tduds

That's a very fair point, Donna.

liberty bell

Abortion Murder Queens would be an excellent roller derby team name.

tduds

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

tduds

Please provide evidence that late-term, non-medical abortions occur in significant numbers.

jla-x

Why would the numbers have to be high the be significant? Cops shooting unarmed people is very rare, but constitutes a significant problem no?

jla-x

Why would the number have to be high to be significant? Cops shooting unarmed people is rare but constitutes a significant problem no?

tduds

In 2019, 342 people have been shot and killed by police in the US. 15 were unarmed. That's about 3 per month. Which, to me, seems non-trivial.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

See how easy it is to just answer the question?

jla-x

It’s like 1% I know.

tduds

Please provide evidence that late-term, non-medical abortions occur in significant numbers. & just for kicks, please provide evidence that laws banning abortion reduce the incidence of late-term non-medical abortions (or any abortions, for that matter).

tduds

You can either answer the question or stop replying. If you keep dancing around the actual issue I'm going to keep coming at you with the same question. I got all year.

jla-x

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, about 1.3 percent of abortions were performed at or greater than 21 weeks of gestation in 2015. In contrast, 91.1 percent were performed at or before 13 weeks and 7.6 percent at 14 to 20 weeks.

These percentages are similar to estimates by the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit research center that supports abortion rights. Guttmacher found that 1.3 percent of abortions took place at or over 21 weeks out of a total of 926,200 abortions in 2014.

jla-x

Significant I’d say

tduds

Unfortunate lack of data on the "non-medical" numbers, though.

This, however, is salient: 

Kimport, a medical sociologist at UCSF whose research focuses on gender, sexuality and social movements, followed up on the research in 2018 with 28 new interviews of women who got later abortions. She said about half were lacking critical health information about their fetus earlier in their pregnancy. Kimport described in an interview how one woman was told by her doctors that something in her 20-week scan looked suspicious but it wasn’t until weeks later that it was clear the fetus had significant abnormalities.

The other half of the women had challenges finding a provider, getting necessary approvals from doctors in states that require them, or had financial constraints. All the women in the study traveled to other states to get the procedure done.

So, to bring this all full circle: These instances could be significantly reduced, or outright avoided, by de-stigmatizing the procedure and increasing access to care for more women (along with proper sex education, access to contraception, and universal affordable health care, which would reduce the rates of late term abortion by reducing the rates of unwanted pregnancy). 

liberty bell

So jla-x are you saying the women who get abortions should die instead? How is that fair?

tduds

Worth repeating that none of this statistical digression impacts the fact that Alabama (and Missouri!) passed a law that will kill women.

jla-x

Wooow liberty! That’s a stretch. I’m not saying that at all.

jla-x

20 weeks is the cut off everywhere without some kind of sign off by doctors...Alabama reduced 20 to 8. 20 being what the court determined was the point of fetal viability. My point is...viability is an arbitrary criteria for what counts as personhood.

jla-x

As is 8...

jla-x

Medical emergencies, deformities, etc is a different thing than elective abortion.

jla-x

How will the law kill women?

liberty bell

But you keep asking us what constitutes personhood as if that matters. If a fetus isn’t a person then it’s part of my body and I’m allowed to abort it. If the fetus *is* a person then it’s occupying my body without my permission and I’m allowed to evict it. I don’t see how the personhood a argument even matters, But you’re focusing on the fetus’ personhood as if once it’s a person the woman whose body it’s occupying ceases to be a person an
d therefore should die even if the fetus is threatening her life. That makes no sense.

jla-x

Because if a fetus is a person, which most people would agree on in late term, then a doctor cannot kill it or that constitutes murder. Simple. You are not evicting it....a doctor third party is killing it. The regulations ban doctors from preforming the act. Many acts are banned. I’m sure a doctor wouldn’t be allowed to remove my legs and replace them with horse legs because it’s my body...that would be prohibited medical practice. Why so hard to understand the difference between denying rights vs denying performance of a procedure by a licensed professional?

tduds

My very first comment in this trainwreck: 

the simple reality on the ground is that restricting safe, legal access to abortion 1) does nothing to reduce the rates of abortion and 2) increases the rates of women dying from unsafe abortions and other related issues.

I'll dig up some info on this later, but feel free to look for yourself. I gotta go have family time now.

liberty bell

I’m not talking about the doctor. Doctors provide healthcare. Sometimes the healthcare is an abortion. I’m talking about the person hood of the person who is pregnant. If someone enters my home, and then refuses to leave, even if I invited them in in the first place, when I want them to leave they ha
ve to. If they end up dead because that’s the only way I can get them out of my house that’s not murder. Yes someone is dead, but it’s not murder

jla-x

The law doesn’t prevent you from wanting it to leave, or punish you for making it leave. The law bans doctors from preforming murder as the state recognizes the personhood of the fetus. It’s a big big difference. Say for example nose jobs were made illegal to do because of some infectious danger ext etc...That doesn’t in anyway prohibit my personal right to change my nose...it just makes the service unavailable to me by banning/regulating doctors from preforming it due to xyz...

jla-x

You have the right to your body, not the right to someone’s service

Non Sequitur

It's not fucking murder you twat. How hard is it to understand?

tintt

Sperm is the origin of life. Let's make male masterbation a felony. Then once all the men are in jail we can have a safe and peaceful society.

Non Sequitur

Welcome to the party Tintt. Hope you have a strong brew near by.

tintt

Cheers!

jla-x

Non, because you say so?

Non Sequitur

^because it's not. You don't get to arbitrarily change the meaning of words to suit your particular point of view. Are you sure you should not be out there selling bibles or some shit like that? Same value in those books as what you're thrown up here in TC.

So the law bans doctors from performing life-saving abortions on people who will die if they don't get one; the state is choosing that the personhood of the fetus is more valid than the personhood of the pregnant person, and jla-x *you* are saying it's ok if the pregnant person dies. Again: if the fetus is a person, then it has all the same rights that I have, but living uninvited in someone else's uterus isn't a right. I think the 3rd Amendment might even apply!

tintt

If the fetus were breaking into your home to burglarize you, it would be legal to kill in most states.

Oh and also the vast majority of abortions these days are medically induced, you don't even really need a doctor. You just take a pill, and again, if abortion wasn't so demonized by the right-wing Taliban it would be something people could just do routinely at home. There are literally millions of snake oil salesmen out there selling acupuncture and reiki and whatever-the-fuck woo bullshit. If Roe is overturned I see a new network of "spiritual health" clinics popping up that serve women who are suffering from cessation of menses. Which means, again, that abortion will only be unobtainable by people who are pregnant and there is a significant health risk for their own life or the life of the fetus, but they won't be able to get the life-saving medical treatment they need because it will be illegal. It happens already, google Savita Halappanavar: killed by the government of Ireland by denying her the abortion that would have saved her life.

Non Sequitur

I dont think anymore mics can be dropped to further establish the pounding Jla's points have taken.

Christopher Hitchens Meme: Your argument was just destroyed.

jla-x

Omg are you dumb? No Donna life saving abortions are not banned. The law bans elective abortions after 8 weeks. Why so hard to understand?

b3tadine[sutures]

well of course, the libertarian would be up for regulating what goes on inside a woman's uterus, of course.

jla-x

Non, because the law redefined personhood...therefore the fetus is a person in that state... therefore if you kill it it is considered murder. Not rocket science

jla-x

Also abortions to save life is incredibly rare.

Non Sequitur

you clearly have no clue JLA.

b3tadine[sutures]

never mind, tduds and donna have this locked down.

If you're talking about the Alabama ban, yes there are exceptions to save the life of the pregnant person. But don't *you* be dumb, either: the overarching goal here is to make abortion completely inaccessible. To overturn Roe so states can force people to give birth. As a self-proclaimed libertarian I really, really don't understand how you can't oppose this. Also, the governor who signed the Alabama bill into law said she did it because God gives us sacred life. Not only is she using her own religion to justify taking away healthcare from millions of women, as a libertarian I'd think you'd be opposed to that intermixing of religion and governance.

"Also abortions to save life is incredibly rare. " Again, jla-x, citation please. I had an abortion at 17. It didn't threaten my biological life at the moment I aborted, though no one can say how the pregnancy might have developed; it wouldn't have been uncommon for it to have killed me. But the pregnancy *did* threaten my life, my livelihood, my ability to live as a self-determining human, and my health. I'd go so far as to say that *every* abortion saves a life.

Non Sequitur

I was about to edit my previous reply to add something very close to what Donna says above, so I won't because she said far more than I can.


And jesus jla-x: how many examples do you need of how many ways there are that someone ends up dead but it's not murder? You're being obtuse. As Non said, you can't just decide words mean what you want them to mean.

jla-x

Holy shit balls....it’s not an issue about a woman’s body! It’s an issue about when it is ok to kill a baby. The fact that 82% of people believe it’s not ok late term suggests that being in the body at some point is moor to the autonomy of the baby’s life...where that point is is debatable.

jla-x

Moot not moor....

Non Sequitur

It's about religion eroding well established social progress while clouding up definitions of terms and statistics in order to confuse under-educated folks. Nothing you've stated is debatable because it is utterly void of sustenance. Also, it's fucking Alabama, are you saying they, who hold a solid hold at the bottom of the education ladder, are now ahead of everyone else in the civilized world? Fuck that shit, but please, continue to dig that hole.

jla-x

Then answer the question. What is the criteria for personhood? At what point does a baby gain personhood?

jla-x

This should be easy to answer since it’s “well established”.

Non Sequitur

Personhood is just nonesense religious goobly-gook speak. Keep on digging, you're doing great!

jla-x

“as a libertarian I'd think you'd be opposed to that intermixing of religion and governance.” I am opposed to the government and religion mixed

jla-x

“as a libertarian I'd think you'd be opposed to that intermixing of religion and governance.” I am opposed to the government and religion mixed

jla-x, I don't know how to lay this out more clearly to you that the personhood question doesn't matter. If a fetus isn't a person, then it's a part of my body and I can abort it. If it *is* a person, that means *it is subject* to the same rights as any person is, and those rights do not include being able to take up residence in another person's body. If the fetus-person dies as a result of being removed from the not-fetus-person's body, BFD. Doesn't matter.

jla-x

Edit...mixing. I am opposed to the govt having any authority over any persons body or life. The limited role of govt is to protect individual life and liberty under the constitution. This is why personhood is a big deal. If personhood is granted at 9mos, or 2weeks, etc...that fetus becomes an autonomous person and also has the right to not be killed. The state sanctioning of that killing is unjust and violates the rights of that person. What can be more of a government overreach than sanctioning the death of an innocent individual? I am very very opposed to women being punished for abortion, or being shamed for it, but the regulation of the medical profession to essentially ban it by recognizing personhood does not infringe upon a women’s bodily autonomy. It simply makes a procedure illegal to preform by a third party upon another’s body. That is a big difference. I am also in agreement with you that early detection and early abortion is the best compromise, but to get to this we need to define when the procedure becomes inhumane based on some scientific criteria like nervous system etc...

If the fetus-person is occupying my body against my wishes it isn't "innocent". You're using the word "innocent", as tduds noted you above, to evoke an emotional response. It's a parasite. Also, if we're talking bout the Georgia ban we're not just talking about doctors being prohibited from performing abortions; the Georgia ban allows a pregnant person who obtains an abortion in another state and returns to Georgia to be charged with conspiracy to commit murder. Updated to add: so yes, a ban like Georgia's infringes on a person's bodily autonomy by not even allowing them to get treated *elsewhere* for their health care needs.


jla-x

Wow. Ok. The first part about the parasite and innocence etc...that’s wacky. I agree with you on second part about unfair Georgia law. That’s bs that they can punish the woman for going out of state.

jla-x

What point do you think a woman should be able to have a non-emergency abortion up to?

I think a pregnant person should be able to make that decision in connection with their doctor.

And if you're offended by the word parasite: how exactly do you think a baby grows? It leeches off the body of its host. When I was pregnant with my son, that 'lil parasite was loved from day one! When I was pregnant at 17, that thing inside me was a malevolent parasite. *THAT* is why it's the choice of the pregnant person to decide: the only context that matters is the context of the person who is affected.

I know I’m stepping in this but ... jla-x, you’ve already answered your question of when to grant a fetus personhood. By your own statement when the fetus becomes autonomous, it can be considered a person. “If personhood is granted at 9mos, or 2weeks, etc...that fetus becomes an autonomous person and also has the right to not be killed.” Where you seen to be misunderstanding your own argument is that autonomy isn’t something that you can define at 2 weeks or 9 months arbitrarily. Medically speaking, at what age would a healthcare professional define a fetus as autonomous?

jla-x

I think it can survive outside of the womb after 20weeks, but that’s an arbitrary criteria for personhood. The only FACT is the human life begins at cell division. Life 100% fact. Not debatable. Unique dna etc. when personhood is granted is a subjective argument, as is what life is ok to end or preserve. My point is that it’s not surprising that the opinions on this are strong and varied. It’s not a cut and dry issue.

Non Sequitur

jla, stop. You have no idea what delivery at 20 weeks is, for all parties involved. Survival is not a good metric since it may technically be possible to survive at 20weeks, long term survival (could be measured in days) is very unlikely.. and 100% impossible without round-the-clock intensive care.

source: I'm the father of a premature child and have seen the back-of-house having stayed nearly a month in intensive care hospitals.  You have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

and yes, life is absolutely debatable.  I say it's when I can register the child for a social security number and for that, I require a birth certificate.  That's a reasonable metric... not some arbitrary feel-good religious shit you're supporting.


jla-x

100% fact life begins at conception. Personhood is a legal term, not a scientific one. Applying value to certain types of life is a cultural and philosophical argument not a scientific one. Any conviction that attempts to redefine “life” is faith based...religious or secular.

jla-x

Saying that a fertilized egg is not life implies that it is not alive which would mean that it is either inert, or dead. That’s illogical

jla-x

It is alive therefore it is a life form. It’s genetic code is human, therefore it is a human life form. This is not up for debate. This is basic bio 101

Non Sequitur

It is certainly up for debate you fool.. This is just semantics to push religious doctrine. Look beyond the cliff notes.

jla-x

Human beings can be distinguished from human cells using the same kind of criteria scientists use to distinguish different cell types. A human being (i.e., a human organism) is composed of human parts (cells, proteins, RNA, DNA), yet it is different from a mere collection of cells because it has the characteristic molecular composition and behavior of an organism: it acts in an interdependent and coordinated manner to “carry on the activities of life.”

Human embryos from the one-cell (zygote) stage forward show uniquely integrated, organismal behavior that is unlike the behavior of mere human cells. The zygote produces increasingly complex tissues, structures and organs that work together in a coordinated way. Importantly, the cells, tissues and organs produced during development do not somehow “generate” the embryo (as if there were some unseen, mysterious “manufacturer” directing this process), they are produced by the embryo as it directs its own development to more mature stages of human life. This organized, coordinated behavior of the embryo is the defining characteristic of a human organism.“

jla-x

^quote from article.

jla-x

I hate when left lies about science to push political agenda as much as when the right does....

jla-x: Let me try to understand: you are arguing that life begins at conception, and therefore ending a pregnancy is ending a life, right?

Non Sequitur

JLA, that's an obvious pro-life group. do you even read the sources you post? Fuck man... you're so far gone.


curtkram

jla, your religious right wing propaganda is not science.

Non Sequitur

Curt, you're like 14hrs late to the party. We told JLA this 200 replies earlier. 

 JLA, just admit it that you've been defeated in a subject you barely understand. No shame in that and hopefully you'll get yourself some big-boy pants and learn a thing or two... or not, and then get frustrated when people point and laugh at your opinions.

I mean: I'm not saying I disagree that life begins at conception. Maybe it does. It doesn't matter, unless you apply a religious "sanctity of life everything to god's plan" view to it. *Viability* definitely doesn't begin at conception, so until viability the little bundle of cells is a parasite dependent on another human's body - not their will, their body - for survival. So if bodily autonomy is a right, that right supersedes the right of the parasitic body's right.

Non Sequitur

JLA, that examiner opinion piece, and the Contend Projects behind its author, is insultingly stupid. This is answers in genesis, 911 trutthers, anti-vax level stupid.

Non Sequitur

Donna, do yourself a favour and don't chase down the dumb-as-fuck rabbit hole in JLA's last link... you'll only come out very angry... and sad that people are so fucking dumb... 

Also worth noting that parents who follow this nonesense will pass it on to their kids.  Talk about terrible education standards.

jla-x

Donna, yes. That’s all I’m saying. When it is morally acceptable to end a life, what types of life are taboo to end (ex: cow, elephant, dolphin, tuna, rat, whale, puppy), etc are all a matter of culture and opinion. We apply value to certain life forms and devalue others. Your opinion on this is your opinion. There is no scientific basis for valuation systems of life. Imo, there is no reason, other than culture and obvious bias that an insect is less valuable than a human. We made it all up.

When talking about human life, it’s not a surprise that there is much debate around the issue because we are human lol. Denying that it is life is a convenient but factually false strategy. Denying it is a human organism is also false. Applying personhood is subjective. Your subjective interpretation of when personhood applies is not factual. It is opinion based. There is no reason to be angry at people who have a different opinion. That is literally all I am saying.

As far as law goes, I find it 100% wrong to ban women from obtaining abortion (as in Georgia). First, I don’t want govt telling anyone what to do with their OWN body. Second, I also see your point that you should be able to opt to not support the life form as it is dependent upon your body. BUT if the law subjectivity defines personhood at 8 weeks, which is a legal definition, then the state does have the obligation to protect that life, and prohibit doctors from killing it. That life has right to life liberty etc. Overall, the Alabama law doesn’t prohibit women from obtaining an abortion, it prohibits third party doctors from preforming them.

The effect may be the same, but the semantics and legal implications are very different. Making something unavailable is not the same as prohibiting someone from doing something with their own body. Prohibiting someone from doing something to another persons body is not the same as prohibiting someone from doing something with their own body. You have right to your body, not to another’s service.


Non Sequitur

keep it up, you're doing great.

jla-x

Curt, non, you provide nothing to the debate. Personal attacks are boring. I’m not playing that game.

jla-x

Donna, thanks for providing thoughtful views.

Non Sequitur

Jla, I told you earlier that your position is not worthy of debate. This has been made obvious to everyone but you. Not my problem you don't get it and you never had a chance as your sources are intellectually flawed.

jla-x

So please define biologically when life begins.

That's actually a good long post, jla-x, and there's lots to agree on. But it still all goes back to what tduds has been saying: laws that make abortion - a legal and necessary healthcare procedure - impossible to obtain *will* result in women dying. So if some legislator's concern is "life" they can't only be concerned about the entity inside another human's body. When I was 17, if I had not been able to get a judge's approval to have an abortion without parental notification, I would have thrown myself down some stairs, or intentionally crashed my bike really hard, or tried to O.D. on drugs (OMG there were so many drugs available at my public high school) to make my body abort, or asked one of my stoner friends to punch me hard in the stomach. Anything, I would have done *anything* to get the thing out of my body that had taken over my body. PREGNANT HUMANS WILL DO THIS and have been doing it since the beginning of time and if people have interest in protecting life, in humanity, they need to recognize this reality. When it comes to my life or the life of a parasite inside me - even if it is "a person" - I, and millions of humans, will always choose our own lives. Other humans won't, they will choose to continue the pregnancy, and that's fine it's their choice. But the choice of what to do with one's own body - in life and after death, too - ONLY rests with the owner of that body.

jla-x

“"The American College of Pediatricians concurs with the body of scientific evidence that human life begins at conception - fertilization…. Scientific and medical discoveries over the past three decades have only verified and solidified this age-old truth. At the completion of the process of fertilization, the human creature emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop.“

jla-x

Is the American college of pediatrics right wing loonies?

Non Sequitur

JLA, defining that term is not important. It's a religious-based distraction to avid dealing with the real issues (as Donna clearly states out).

jla-x

Non, wrong. It’s a scientific reality. Any position on the value of that life is moralistic... religious or secular....In China for instance killing female babies was an acceptable cultural practice. Here we would consider that eugenics. China’s policy was based on a statist secular belief system...a secular religion for loss of better term.

"...needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop" The proper environment being the body of another human who has rights to not share their body. Again: if it *is* a human, it's subject to the same laws as every other human, which include not having the right to use another human's body against their will and express permission. So the personhood question doesn't matter.

Non Sequitur

JLA... I don't even know where to start piecing that piece of bullshit apart so I'll just treat it like the rest of the garbage you've posted. 

Typical religious argument: discuss semantics ad-nausea and the, now suddenly important, implications of using these carefully chosen words (with pre-loaded meanings) in order to appeal to the less educated and make discussion appear intelligent. I should have started a logical fallacy bingo yesterday... I'd have won thrice over by now.

*edited because apparently I'm terrible at grammar this afternoon.

jla-x

Donna, I guess the question is whether or not dependence negates personhood. Again though, personhood is a legal and subjective status. Sadly, the government didn’t grant slaves personhood to justify their abuse and ownership. The term personhood is simply a legal term that conveys rights and liberties. Obviously black people were persons despite the semantics of the law. This is a different thing, but someone figured that they can prohibit performing abortions by extending
personhood.

Also, jla-x, out of curiosity and it's a serious question: you mentioned above that prohibiting a doctor from performing an abortion isn't the same as regulating a woman's right to abortion. People have floated this idea that we outlaw bullets: keep the 2nd Amendment in place, but make the production and sale of bullets illegal, take them out of stores, make them unobtainable. So folks will still *have* the right to bear arms, but they won't be able to *access that right* because they won't be able to get bullets. Is that an overstep by government? Is making guns unusable the same as taking them away?

Non Sequitur

Donna, are you suggesting we resort to pistol whipping when the British come back for their land? Because I think that's a great idea.

jla-x

Good point. Yeah, I think that would be a way to achieve that goal without treading on the personal liberty issues.

jla-x

Same with alcohol prohibition I believe. They banned manufacturing and sale, not consumption (may be wrong)

curtkram

please stop using the word 'science.' you don't know what that means, and it doesn't lend legitimacy to your opinion.

jla-x

However, the big difference is that the bullets would be a ban/regulation ...abortion per Alabama is an enforcement of negative rights.

jla-x

Also, there is no constitutional rights to abortion...so different but yes similar idea...

jla-x

Curt...boring

jla-x

I’m wrong on that last point...due process right applies under roe v Wade...

tduds


L O friggin L

jla-x

Tduds, what so lol

jla-x

At 20 weeks we are talking about a fully formed human being...if your opinion is that it is ok to kill a fully formed human than that’s your opinion, but most people would recognize that killing an 8week old human is more humane (although still an act of killing a person). Take a look at a 20week baby and you will see why people are against the practice. I’m not saying what is or isn’t moral...just saying that YOUR moral subjective opinion is NOT greater or more progressive than anyone else’s. Claiming that it is because of political alignment to illusions of progression vs regression (also subjective) is very arrogant.

jla-x

Also, If i were a teenage girl and got pregnant I would likely have gotten an abortion...but we can look at issues from the vantage of the individual and from a more removed vantage. Sometimes it’s hard to see the forest from the trees...sometimes it’s hard to see the intricacies of the trees when looking at the whole of the forest...Morality and policy should be shaped from taking both into consideration.

Non Sequitur

Digging even lower. new record?

jla-x

Define “lower”.

jla-x

Also to refute a previous point by tduds...that late abortions are rare...funny how the left often uses the rarest forms of intersectionality to make arguments, like trans athletes in Pakistan, then suddenly try’s to divert this argument by claiming it’s rare. Duh, protecting the minority is rare...hence the word “minority”.

Non Sequitur

Beyond rock bottom. that's where you've set your goal, so keep it up. You clearly can't be educated on this subject anyways.

jla-x

What would “educated” look like? I’ll wait...

jla-x

Something between agree with your subjective opinion and stop dampening the echo chamber....

liberty bell

Jesus jla-x! “Protecting the minority” is our responsibility as members of society. Full stop. That’s what the US is *founded* on. And we’re not a Christian nation officially, but protecting the minority IS the bedrock of Christianity. If anyone is twisting that definition it’s the forced birthers who argue for the humanity of a microscopic clump of DNA while conveniently ignoring the actual human person standing in front of them ready commit suicide instead of be pregnant. I don’t expect you to understand this; you’re a libertarian and thus subscribe to a philosophy of “I got mine fuck you”.

jla-x

I was clearly saying that protecting rights of minorities IS important. Tthe left often cites rarest scenarios to seek protection for the least common situations. I stated that to refute tduds point that “rare” late term abortions are somehow insignificant because they are rare. We already settled the idea that “microscopic clump” is false. At 20 weeks a fully formed baby is in the womb. It can suck thumb, recognize voices, etc. it looks like a baby. It’s size of cantaloupe. At 8 weeks it is the size of a pea but has head, limbs, beginning of organs, nervous system begins, etc . They grow fast. Any logical person would understand that it is more humane to kill it at 8 weeks vs 20 weeks. Pretending that reducing law from 20-8 is insignificant or unfounded is dishonest. Whether you agree or not, you should be able to understand that those who are against abortion after 8 weeks have a real argument based on a scientific biological and ethical reality. Didn’t say you must agree, just saying that we shouldn’t discount that opinion as religious right wing wackos....It’s actually progressive to protect the most vulnerable people.

jla-x

But let me ask you a hypothetical question....if women could do genetic test on fetus to determine is that fetus had a gene that made them more likely to be gay, short, certain hair color, low iq, etc....would you be ok with women choosing to abort a baby because they didn’t want a gay child? Sounds pretty awful. What about aborting a girl because you want a boy? This is why it’s dangerous for value of a life to be left solely to the mother.

Non Sequitur

So many fucking delusions.

As usual, Chris Hedges has a good take on the issue.

jla-x

It’s easy to twist any argument into some capitalist conspiracy...I can easily do the same to twist the subject into a socialist conspiracy...”the left prompts abortion to limit the number of poor dependents so that they can have a manageable population of dependents. Often they cite the idea that these would be lives will likely turn out to be a menace to society or have low success rates. This view is highly racist and classist. The founder of planned parenthood was a proponent of eugenics...etc etc..” See, easy! We all know though that this is not a left-right argument, it is a moral one having to do with value of life, personhood, when tights kick in, etc...

tintt

I wish people would get as excited about affordable, quality childcare and how it's women's jobs to clean up everyone else's damn messes all the time (for free) then perhaps women wouldn't feel so strongly about needing to make decisions to protect themselves from motherhood. It's interesting to note too that many conservative men need mothering their whole lives, basically that they need someone around full-time making them sandwiches, picking up their dirty socks, making their doc's appointments, etc.

jla-x

Convenience isn’t a justification...but fair point that society needs to address these issues of work/child rearing balance. And I agree that men who have working wives need to stop being lazy shits and pull their weight.

tduds

It's telling that jla's justifications are made entirely of hypothetical questions while the counterpoints he chooses to ignore are largely real, actual events that have occurred. 

Anyway I've given up on this trash fire and probably going to block jla for my own sanity. Thanks everyone, it's been utterly obnoxious.

tintt

The real question is what is the government's role in the situation then.

jla-x

Lol tduds! Just lololol. Your counterpoints were hypothetical. My points were logical and based on biological reality. I literally presented a “hypothetical” question a few posts ago and stated “here is a hypothetical question”....you are twisting your final post in your favor to try and persuade the lazy readers who scroll past the loooong debate to the end...nice try. I’ve respectfully addressed every singe counterpoint most were weak except the valid one made by Donna regarding the distinction between killing and choosing not to support a dependent organism.

tduds

I hope you're only this exhausting online, because otherwise it would make for a lonely sad existence. Later.

Non Sequitur

JLA, based on your previous answers, I don't think you understand the meaning of "logic"... that is, unless you're also re-branded that word to suite your pre-existing position. There is no debate here since you lost gloriously from your first post. Too bad you're too stubborn to notice.

jla-x

Non, that’s funny. You won without actually making an argument. Must be a Canadian superpower.

Non Sequitur

Correct. Glad we've come to a compromise.

edit. today is a canadian holiday too.  Not relevant, but felt the need to brag...


jla-x

Tduds, I am not going to waste my time responding to ad hominem attacks. It’s really really boring and pointless. I like debate. Either engage, or don’t play, but if I’m playing chess and you are playing dodgeball this human communication/debate thing isn’t fun or productive.

SneakyPete

This is a great thing for sanity:


jla-x

Now you are attacking logic itself. WOW. Also, are you suggesting that logic is only loved my “guys”. That’s pretty sexist buddy.

jla-x

log·ic
/ˈläjik/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.
"experience is a better guide to this than deductive logic"
synonyms: science of reasoning, science of deduction, science of thought, dialectics, argumentation,

tduds

I highly doubt you read the essay.

tduds

Not attacking logic, merely the weaponization of the term to suggest an objective truth where none exists, which is what you do in almost every thread that finds you in a contrarian position.

jla-x

I got about 2 paragraphs in...pretty stupid article so far...

jla-x

Please though, can you show where I stated an “objective truth”....actually I did the opposite. I literally said over and over that value of life is subjective. The only objective truth, per biological fact, is that life begins at cell division. That’s not up for debate. That is a fact of biology.

jla-x

It’s very annoying that you are trying to bend my argument into something easier to contend with.

jla-x

Here’s a breakdown.

Scientific facts:
1. life begins at cell division.
2. Soon after conception, the zygote has all characteristics of an organism/human being.

Logical conclusion

1. Aborting a fetus equals ending a life
2. Aborting a fetus equals ending the life of a human being
3. Legal abortion is the legally sanctioned termination of a human life.

Legal issues
1. Personhood extends human right to life and liberty
2. Personhood is a legal category, not a biological term.
3. Any granting of personhood at any point after cell division is completely subjective and based on value systems whether (far-left, far-right, Christian, secular, etc)
4. Once personhood is granted the state has an obligation to protect life and liberty. These are basic negative rights.
5. Women have the right to their own bodies
6. Doctors do not have any right to preform certain procedures and are limited all of the time via medical regulations.
7. Women do not have any right to specific medical services performed by others.

Cultural issues
1. Most people are not in favor of non medical third trimester abortions. Apx 85%. This indicates that at some point, we recognize that the rights to life of that new human supersedes the right of the woman to choose to not carry it by seeking a third party to kill it.
2. Between conception and delivery the opinions on where to draw that line vary, but most people agree that sooner is more humane. This indicates that late term abortions are seen as inhumane by a majority.

My Conclusion

1. Safe legal abortions at early stages of pregnancy seem to be best compromise.

Please show me where u disagree

jla-x

Where? So easy to claim that someone is wrong without actually having to argue with them.

jla-x

I’ll wait...

tduds

Conspicuously absent in "Legal Issues" is the fact that Alabama and several other states have passed bills that restrict access to abortion far beyond your own concluded "best compromise". Conspicuous because that's what this thread is about and your continued presence in this thread is muddying this very simple fact in order to score rhetorical points about larger issues that no one was interested in hashing out until you forced our hands.

tduds

Again what's got me aggrivated is less about our disagreements and more about your tactics and personality in this thread (&also this forum overall)

tduds

Just gonna drop this back into the mix in case you forgot...


You'll be waiting a while. I see no reason to get into it with you at this time based on what has already been discussed. While you wait, you might as well look at the website I linked and do some reading.

If you're tired of reading that, and still feel like waiting, you could check this one out as well ... https://yourbias.is/

BTW, this could really go for everyone involved. There have been plenty of fallacies and biases all around on this one.

jla-x

“Beyond your own concluded”. I never concluded what exact date that ought to be. I said that 8 weeks (per Alabama law) seems more humane than 20ish weeks (cut off via Row v Wade viability decision). Mainly, I was knocking down the contempt that the pro-abortion left has for the other side of the debate. To do this I clearly pointed out that their argument has no more objective truth than the argument of the pro-life crowd, and that the only objective truths are the ones grounded in biological facts regarding markers of “life” and “organisms”.

tduds

"Mainly, I was knocking down the contempt that the pro-abortion left has for the other side of the debate."

Well that certainly backfired, didn't it.

jla-x

tduds, your dropback....I’ve already addressed this several times. I am a human, not a libertarian. I lean that way on many issues, but not all issues. For one, I am for strick environmental regs, National Park expansions, fda, epa, etc. I don’t see a conflict. On abortion, again for the 100th time, if you extend personhood to that fetus, whenever that may be, they have inalienable negative rights to life and liberty. It’s not a ban on mothers rights, it’s an extension of rights to baby. For instance, it’s not an infringement on your liberty to mandate that you have to feed your toddler.

jla-x

No, it didn’t backfire at all. Are you just too arrogant to admit that you are wrong?

tduds

"I said that 8 weeks (per Alabama law)" 

The law makes no provisions for pregnancies fewer than 8 weeks.

From the text of the bill: "(7) UNBORN CHILD, CHILD or PERSON. A human being, specifically including an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability."

tduds

We've both been wrong on a bunch of fronts in this thread. But I'm pretty sure nothing about it has lessened "the contempt that the pro-abortion left has for the other side of the debate." 

Nevermind the unnecessarily disingenuous labeling of your opposition as "pro-abortion."

jla-x

Since you like vox....here’s an interesting article on small gender gap views on the issue...Yes, I stand corrected on the 8week limit...was thinking of MO and others who enacted the fetal heart beat laws...

jla-x

Pro-abortion vs pro-choice is kinda different...but I’d say the left has done its fair share of disingenuous labeling on the issue...anti-women, patriarchy, clump of cells (hilarious for you bio majors), controlling women’s reproduction, etc etc...list goes on. Also should note that there are many old school catholic Dems that oppose abortion...especially Irish and Hispanic communities...the issue isn’t as partisan as you may think.

jla-x

But yes, I will try to be more thoughtful with the labels...

liberty bell

I’m fine with pro-abortion as a label; you can also call me pro-chemotherapy, pro-appendectomy, pro-quadruple-bypass, pro-lumpectomy, etc etc. and I’ll continue to call people who oppose abortion forced-birthers.

jla-x

why is Tulsi Gabbard not front runner in the dem side???   She is fantastic.  Possibly the best candidate I’ve ever seen.  I don’t agree with her on everything (a lot though) but she is something special.  The others are horrible.  I don’t get it...



May 16, 19 11:47 am
tduds

Sexism, name recognition, and low-information voters. Mostly.

b3tadine[sutures]

maybe she shouldn't be connected to anti-gay issues, or meeting genocidal cunts?

jla-x

Gabbard/Yang and I’ll vote otherwise staying home.

jla-x

Or Gary Johnson

b3tadine[sutures]

3 assholes, wait...

tduds

lol Gary Johnson.

Ever notice that pro-lifers are also pro capital punishment?


George Carlin: Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked.


Conservatives don't give a shit about you until you reach "military age". Then they think you are just fine. Just what they've been looking for. 


Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. Pro-life... pro-life... These people aren't pro-life, they're killing doctors! What kind of pro-life is that? What, they'll do anything they can to save a fetus but if it grows up to be a doctor they just might have to kill it? They're not pro-life. You know what they are? They're anti-woman. Simple as it gets, anti-woman. They don't like them. They don't like women.They believe a woman's primary role is to function as a brood mare for the state.

May 16, 19 3:03 pm
tduds

I agree. But... can we keep this to a minimum in TC?

Non Sequitur

Classic. Too bad this falls of deaf ears because you're all killing babies by the thousands you evil Jaausus hating terrorist.

tuds, I agree completely and I started to comment to that effect. But then I thought it better to invoke the master of sanity and put this idiocy to rest (although idiots will persist, no doubt).

Non Sequitur

I think the real problem is not so much the subject context, which given its outdated nature is easy to poke holes, it’s that stories like the Alabama one give less than intelligent people a false crutch to prop their already terrible point of views. Just like dropping a partial Jordan Peterson quote on Facebook or whatever. Dude, there is more to this than you’re capable of understanding.

tduds

I need to block Archinect from my work computer before 4PM.

I've got too much work to do and not enough self control to get it done.

May 16, 19 3:42 pm
JLC-1

just push the "ignore this user" button, life gets so much nicer when you don't know about these assholes.

tduds

But if I don't fight the assholes they might recruit new assholes. That reasoning is an alarming proportion of my online presence. 

Okay maybe you're right

Assholes represent an alarming proportion of society in general.

JLC-1

before the internet we didn't know how many they were, now we know.

JLC-1

I.M. PEI died

May 16, 19 4:59 pm
tduds

R. I. PEI

Non Sequitur

What? Google tells me you’re a liar.

jla-x

Damn. That sucks.

tduds

I'm only seeing posts on Twitter. No press announcements yet...

Joke I just saw on twitter: He's changed his name to I. Was Pei. I laughed, yep. Cuz I'm a monster.

tduds

That seems like the type of joke that Pei himself would find hilarious.

JLC-1

Paul Goldberger twitted


JLC-1

Hey NON, seems like you're not really the fastest googler around.

Non Sequitur

Yeah, well, I’m not happy that I was wrong. Boo.

JLC-1

bump, and I hadn't seen this piece of crap; I would fail a student if they come up with something like this

https://www.archdaily.com/793971/roy-and-diana-vagelos-education-center-diller-scofidio-plus-renfro

May 17, 19 10:54 am
citizen

^ This is what happens when, instead of drinking a couple of beers in studio, you slam some meth. Just say 'no,' kids!

archanonymous

lol. Seriously where are the program spaces in that building? it's one big stair. The lecture halls are glass.

tduds

DS+R did the "The floor is the wall is the roof!" bit pretty well with Boston's ICA and they've been re-hashing it to worse effect ever since.

I can't think of a firm that has earned and then lost my admiration as much as them.

JLC-1

why do you all keep answering him? hope?

May 17, 19 3:25 pm
Non Sequitur

It's been a while since the last good dumpster fire... still cold here so the heat is nice. 8-)

liberty bell

JLC-1, i’ve said here before that I frequently comment being mindful of the many, many other eyeballs that are reading these threads, not just whoever I’m responding to directly. These conversations really are not just between us regulars, other people who never make comments themselves read them, and I frequently feel like that’s my audience. Just this week, in fact, I had a phone call with a recent graduate who read one of my comments and was looking for some professional advice. I see my time on Archinect very much been about mentoring, not just talking.

curtkram

mentoring jla? it would be more productive talking to a door. pretty much two people each having a one-way conversation. the guy is literally incapable of learning.

The point is valid. You are a role model for someone, somewhere, whether you know it or not. And in many cases whether they know it or not. A common teaching technique is to make an example of someone, thus proving the term “useful idiot”.

Self-reflection is critically important.

“There but for the grace of doG go I ... “

jla-x

Curt, you are the reason the Dems will lose. Rather than contend with the points that I made you default to ad homenin attacks. Full of conviction and self righteousness with zero substance to your arguments. Like I said...Boring boring boring...

curtkram

Dems won the midterms

Useful idiots provide a steady stream of easily debunked nonsense. It helps to think of this as a kind of public service, setting an example for no one to follow. Except other idiots, of course.

curt, I'm saying I feel like I can mentor *other* people, not the person I'm directly responding to.

curtkram

sort of like seneca's letters to lucilius? no idea if they were ever intended to actually be delivered to lucilius, it's more of a public diary of sorts.

jla-x

“Useful idiots” see terms origin...
b3tadine[sutures]

What do you think the origin is?

JLC-1

Donna, I understand your point, hopefully you understand how useless is to try it with this particular idiot.

jla-x

0 points contended with logical counterpoints...several ad homenim
attacks....JLC-1 is boring.

jla-x

*
hominem

I hear you JLC-1, I mean anyone who stamps their foot and says "I won't vote for a Democrat unless they are *perfect*" is beyond logical discussion (and, frankly, has already had their vote suppressed by the Republicans when they take this tack).

JLC-1

I have not seen anything he's posted in the last 2 weeks, and don't need to.

Non Sequitur

So, how about that GoT finale?

JLC-1

Haven't seen it yet! comes too late to this side of the continental divide.

Non Sequitur

You didn't miss much. I'd say it's a tad bit more entertaining than watching (reading) JLAx's descent into madness.

JLC-1

he can descend all he wants, I'm not buying...


proto

i leave for a bit...

need more whisky in here...gets the gullet warm at least

May 17, 19 4:16 pm

Now for something completely different.

Aside from that PoMo shit in the middle, really nice.

May 20, 19 2:10 pm

WHat is this?

jla-x

ACROS building in Japan. Nice

waaayback machine in full effect. Ambaz in Japan.

citizen

Thank you, Miles, for the diversion. And, be optimistic... eventually the green growies will take over the neo-Egyptian pylon.

JLC-1

emilio ambasz! we loved to see his new inventions in magazines way back then....

Here is a view from on the terraces looking down.


May 20, 19 3:46 pm
JLC-1

it should be a standard to improve or at least replace all the biomass being impacted by your buildings, this was a great deal for ambasz, who tried his work to blend with nature

archanonymous

the modern update of Corb's "Piloti and roof garden"

^ Good article.

SneakyPete

I'M HAVING DIFFICULTY READING THE ARTICLE DUE TO FORMATTING CHOICES. CAPITALIZATION IS IMPORTANT FOR MANY REASONS, AND I WONDER WHY THE AUTHOR CHOSE TO IGNORE IT AND WRITE WITH THE CAPS LOCK KEY STUCK IN THE ON POSITION. I GUESS I WILL TRY AND READ IT REGARDLESS TO SEE IF THE CONTENT IS WORTH THE EFFORT. YES, I REALLY THINK ALL-CAPS KILLS READABILITY.

citizen

If you ever met Glen Small, you'd get the all-caps choice.

SneakyPete

Interesting. I pasted it into a case converting website to read it. There were quite a few typos I didn't notice as I was struggling through the all-caps version, but the content was worth the effort.

atelier nobody

^Purty

May 20, 19 3:49 pm
jla-x


ando 

May 20, 19 3:52 pm

This came up in reading Darwin Comes to Town. A good read for architects.

May 20, 19 3:59 pm
archanonymous

Anyone else just completely sapped and burned out? It feels like myself and every architect I know in this city has been working at full-tilt for like 2+ years. 

It seems like no one has enough staff, teams are too small and everyone is overworked. I've poked my head up a few times to see how things are at other firms and despite that there still aren't huge raises on offer for switching, nor are fees going up. 

Add to that just constant bullshit in the media and politics and it's just a bit too much. Sigh.

May 22, 19 9:20 am
Non Sequitur

I hear ya. Just had a meeting yesterday with a long-time repeat client which could have gone either 2 days ago TC dumpster fire or gone completely good like current day TC with selective ignore settings turned on.

Meeting went better than we could have expect and left with two other decent sized potential projects.  One of them being a 12 storey office building.  Now I just need to get these structural drawings out for coordination so I can hammer out two other commercial infill jobs while I wait for the others to start.  Soon it'll be winter again.

I feel exactly the same, archanonymous. I'm totally burned out. I have a very brief trip to Phoenix next week for my nephew's wedding and in my mind I'm clinging to those four days with all the fervor and mania of Gollum fondling the Ring and whispering "my preciouusssss"....

tduds

Same, except I've been ping-ponging between being absolutely burned out stressed from overwork and absolutely burned out bored from poor personnel management. On top of that there's the various global existential crises I just can't seem to ignore, and the fact that I'm planning a wedding and buying a house this year. I need an extra month before 2020, preferrably one where I can just nap.

jla-x

That article should lift the spirits a little...we are at an amazing time in history...and in an amazing field. Too much negativity bias out there...

tduds

Sure, things are getting better in a lot of ways. But, two things: 1) [from that Vox link] "Climate change is one big area where we’re not making progress, and things are getting considerably worse. There’s no sugar-coating that." and 2) Most of the improvements mentioned in that Vox article are positively correlated with carbon emissions. So by not improving on climate change, all the other progress may be for naught.

tduds

That said my own personal burnout has come less from negativity bias and more from... well I'll call it strained bandwidth. The constant onslaught of "necessary" information piped at me / us through various channels is simply overwhelming. I know it's on me for not ignoring it, but I have a very hard time ignoring information. 

Similarly, all the ways I'm overextended are extremely good things (I'm getting married! We bought a house! I have a very productive job!) but that doesn't change the reality that I'm temporarily overextended. 

I do enjoy my weekends, though.

Non Sequitur

Tduds, that's what beer is for.

tduds

And how.

archi_dude

A union framer put it perfectly a few months back. They (owners) figured out how cheaply we’d all work during the recession and now the only place left to cut is schedule time. Until both architects and contractors push back on schedules your going to see jobs still going for low fees because they are running on 1/3 the labor required but it’s employees that pick up the slack. I think the only thing that would get firms to push back would be a revolution in labor protection for white collar workers. Not sure why we all stand for the salary = as much overtime as you can bully / scare out of people.

archi_dude

The union framer’s company was pushing back on the schedule with additional fees, but since we have such loose borders, there are plenty other framing companies without those restrictions.

archanonymous

Not enough time... Too few people. I had already worked 11 hours today when my boss was a total jerk to me. Just kinda shrugged, packed my stuff up and left. I want to do a "work to rights" strike where everyone paid salary just starts working 8 hour days consistently.

tduds

Race to the bottom!

b3tadine[sutures]

Looks about right.

May 22, 19 1:03 pm

Wait...

Non Sequitur

just needs a little caulking.

citizen

What, you never heard of "shim as required"?

SneakyPete

I call those "shimple solutions."

b3tadine[sutures]

Yeah, but what about the anchor bolts on the front side? Not visible, maybe three threads on the nut.

jla-x's comment has been hidden
jla-x's comment has been hidden
jla-x

That article should lift the spirits a little...we are at an amazing time in history...and in an amazing field. Too much negativity bias out there...

jla-x's comment has been hidden
jla-x

Another good one...

tduds

Wrong thread?

jla-x

Oops, yes...was meant for the one above...

JLC-1

after approving shop dwgs? heads should fall....

citizen

The steel fab shops could be okay. The concrete pour appears the likely suspect, it seems...?

JLC-1

you think they put the column in before pouring the concrete? also, while checking fab shops, you don't look at attachment plates and their relation to the concrete below?

b3tadine[sutures]

You'd think an RFI would've helped here, but....no one likes sending RFIs now. I'll say this, and I've seen it in my own office, if millennials don't figure out how to actually call people on a phone, in construction, we're all fucked.

citizen

I'm guessing the shops were approved, steel was fabbed, then landed on the site where the slab had already been poured a foot short. Steel sub-- or maybe concrete sub-- has a surprise bowel movement, then an epiphany, and jams a TS piece in the void. Just a guess.

citizen

Also +++ to b3ta's observation on phone calls.

Non Sequitur

Our first si in all big projects is building corner start point. The second is a slab edge plan(s) so this does not happen.

curtkram

b3ta, when contractors start texting we'll be fine

curtkram

i'm not sure i entirely understand the drawing, but it looks like this was built as designed. probably not the contractor's fault, though they should have probably pointed out how it doesn't make sense before they built it.

curtkram

also 15/16" dimension. was just talking about our 1/256" dimensions to a guy today.

archanonymous

At least they are putting a level on it!

Non Sequitur

Good catch Curt... nothing says quality like dimensions to 3/64".

archi_dude

If collaborating with B3ta on a project is anything like interacting with her on this site, I think I can understand why communication with the contractor is strained...

I'm surprised they didn't run the 2x6 plate under the column.

This hints at massive, extensive fuckups. More pics would be good.

midlander

they were probably pleased with themselves for recognizing this would be an inappropriate location for wood blocking.

I like the 3’-10 3/4” dimension with the leader coming off the bottom of the dim line just so it can cross the extension line. Still trying to figure out why the column needs to be dimensioned from that wall. Seems like locating it from the other column would have been to straightforward. But we don’t have the full plan, so I vote for posting it next.

... and don’t you need PT sill plates on your concrete slab?

Non Sequitur

I just spent 30min composing a 2 sentence reply to a structural steel question from a client so that our intentions were clear. This is all in order to avoid shit like that HSS shim in the picture.

Non Sequitur

also... B3ta, no foundation waterproofing and top of slab membrane under the wall track?

tduds

As a millennial who spends entire weeks playing phone tag during CA, I would like to push back against the further stereotyping of my generation. 

That said - always make sure to get a record in writing of whatever was decided on the phone. 

C(Y)A.

b3tadine[sutures]

The sills are pt, and typically here they put a sill plate gasket. The TPE = Top of Pier Elevation, which for some reason is conveniently placed at top of slab. So, instead of the column sitting on a pier, it sits half on a slab. Right. Oh, if you look closely, the anchors were post set in epoxy, nice. The clusterfucking on this site; extradumb, because extraordinary would be an improvement.

b3tadine[sutures]

#notallmillennials

curtkram

is this a real project you're working on b3ta?

citizen

My ire toward non-phone-callers is not focused on any age group, but generously applies to lazy folks of all generations.

b3tadine[sutures]

curt, it's real, not mine specifically, but it is mine...you get my drift.

The sills are pt, and typically here they put a sill plate gasket. The TPE = Top of Pier Elevation, which for some reason is conveniently placed at top of slab. 

Maybe it's my monitor, but that sill doesn't look like PT to me. Also looks like the top of pier is at the bottom of the slab rather than top of slab. If it was top of slab, no HSS shim would be required. Either way, it looks like that yes, you have some extradumb CF mess to deal with. Good luck.

curtkram

So is the column half outside the building?

citizen

(These are the threads I love-- down in the working studio, where none of the blog-posting, news-forwarding "architecture" editors ever visit.)

b3tadine[sutures]

Hehe, maybe now, but it wasn't intended to be......

curtkram

Love to hear how this gets reso
lved

jla-x

Plant vines

citizen

That couldn't possibly get past an inspector... could it?

gibbost

Construction is not an exact science. Errors are made everyday by every trade and person that touches the project. I often sit in awe of how well contractors can think on their feet. Their ability to work thru a problem like this often showcases our own inability to do the same. (not suggesting every solution by the GC is a winner). I've never had a project that was flawless. These issues come up. How we respond to them is what determines your reputation in the field. And for what it's worth, if the structural engineer signs off on that . . . I think it's a pretty clever fix.

curtkram

I don't think the tube shim is the only problem here

You can't call this a fix without looking at the entire condition.

b3tadine[sutures]

Construction isn't an exact science, but special inspections need to be based on what is reasonable, and structural drawings are, reasonable. Now, the slab isn't a structural slab, the pier - which we now find out, is at an elevation 8" below the slab - is, but an RFI was never issued to request clarification of the conflict. No one, least of the architect, expects flawless construction, not in the US, but what I do expect is an RFI. Additionally, the question begs, if they knew the pier was at an elevation, who made the call to install, did the anchor bolts get length, how, and did they have permission to drill the set concrete, epoxy in the anchors, and when do they plan on inspecting?


b3tadine[sutures]

You know what the kicker is? We've had problems with the GC, I've been out there for site visits, and have expressed my concerns to the owner of the lack of urgency, lake of person power, and how shoddy the execution is on the project. So, we shared this constructed element with the owner, as yet another example of the extradumbness going on there. Later on today, the site sup calls the architect to express his regret that this wasn't brought to his attention on-site. We then expressed our regret that an RFI was never issued for this item, as it was clear that one was necessary.

b3tadine[sutures]

Now this, is sexy, or is it sensual?

May 23, 19 4:52 pm

ahhh yeah... sssstructural...

(final edit)

Non Sequitur

Very sensual. Now I have to sit awkwardly and wait for the moment to pass before getting up.

tduds

Heh, post- tensioned.

jla-x

Take green epoxy rebar gets me hot.

curtkram

residential podium construc tion?

axonapoplectic

Looks stressful to me.

b3tadine[sutures]

curt, nope commercial project and parking structure.

JLC-1

very fluid, like the slush you have to pour to get a homogeneous mass.

senjohnblutarsky

Based on a thread a while back, I thought we weren't allowed to say sexy anymore...

atelier nobody

I like big buttresses and I cannot lie...

axonapoplectic

I’m just going to leave this here:


https://www.kqed.org/arts/13857471/artist-passion-exploitation-duke-study

May 23, 19 9:30 pm
archanonymous

Anyone's situation improved? 

I took all three days off (meaning Saturday, Sunday, Monday) over the holiday weekend and am feeling much better. Of course that leads to me leaving on time Tuesday and (hopefully) today because I'm so much more relaxed and have both been more productive and have less fucks to give so there's no point in working late.

May 29, 19 8:57 am
Non Sequitur

I always have saturday and sunday off.

tduds

Yep - went camping over the long weekend, and as nature always does, my psyche is (somewhat, temporarily) restored.

Non Sequitur

This little man will be 3 tomorrow.

Note, that is not some sort of giant's hat... It's a regular size one and he is just tiny with his lowest weight at 1.6kg (3lb-9oz).  I know I've posted the story on TC before, but he was born by emergency C-section at 34weeks (multiple reasons, main one being low/no nutrition flow, low heart beat, twisted cord, etc).  After 3 weeks in intensive care, he came home.  Picture is at 1 week old.  Not pictured: the feeding tube in nose and IV drip on the side of the head. 

He's doing great today but not without some concerning cognitive and physical development delays (My wife and I high-fived each other in the dr. Office 2 weeks ago when he, with a pause, tried to tell us he was under the 5th percentile... We were so happy he was actually on the chart!).  He is however the happiest and silliest little dude in the world.

May 30, 19 9:10 am
midlander

A truly wonderful child - congratulations and wish him a happy birthday! Life is delicate and that which is precious reminds us of the urgency to live well.

Non Sequitur

^cheers

poop876

Oh that's awesome! Congratulations!

liberty bell

Love that you stuck him in a Guinness hat - priorities! Happy birthday lil’ Sequitur!!

Non Sequitur

Thanks Donna & Poop.

Donna, I'm keeping that hat in my firesafe.  It's a good object to determine scale in the future.

JLC-1

congrats non!, my youngest is graduating high school on saturday, it's a long road.

gibbost

My daughter was born at 30 weeks. She actually lost weight for the first two weeks. Got down to 2 lbs, 13 oz. Today she is a healthy, vibrant 9 year old. Small for her age, but amazing none the less. The NICU nurses kept telling us she was a fighter. They weren't wrong--which I keep telling myself will serve her well when she's older.

Happy b-day little Non Sequitur! I had a facebook memory from a year ago pop up in my feed of my daughter eating her first popsicle, attempting words, tripping over her own feet, and generally being the cutest little toddler. I can't believe it was only a year ago. So much can change in a year's time.

archanonymous

congrats and hbd to the little guy... my sister had some serious childhood medical issues resulting in some cognitive issues, but 20+ years later, all is well (enough). Usually life turns out OK.

Non Sequitur

Thanks everyone. Gib, I can certainly relate to the NICU comment.

Non Sequitur

0/10

midlander

AlinaF, in a forum overrun by spam and idiots, you complain about an expression of humanity and love? you are vile.

Non Sequitur

^thanks Midlander.

liberty bell

Alina you might benefit from the services of the spammer that just hit TC; they offer “Powerful Love Spells That Works In 24 Hours” and you could definitely do with some more love in your life!

My only "complaint" is that this is not its own #humblednotbrag thread so people can share what really matters in their lives. We could all use some perspective now and then. Keep on keeping on shorty.

citizen

Thank you for posting this, NS, and a huge happy birthday to the little one! =O] Sounds like he has a great mom and dad, too.

jla-x

Happy birthday little fella!

jla-x

Good idea Marc! I think I’ll start a thread about “what really matters”. After all, how can we design anything worth something without a clear mindset of what matters in our lives and in the world in general.

Non Sequitur

Oie, warm feelies all over today.

OneLostArchitect

Congrats my first was a premie... Mencius

OneLostArchitect

Ignore last word damn phone.... I remember living in NCIU for a couple weeks. Not a fun time and we saw the worse of the worse with other parents. Very sad and depressing at times. My little guy pulled through and he had developmental challenges but he has overcome them. Congrats again

Did something happen with the pages on TC? I thought beta's sexy rebar photo was the start of a new page meaning I didn't have to scroll through the political stuff up there ^^^ anymore. Now we are back at the bottom of the page.

Is this related to AlinaF getting their posts on TC nuked for whatever they posted in response to NS's photo?

Jun 3, 19 12:56 pm

and now this is the new page...lol

Non Sequitur

There were 3 very large spam posts earlier today. all 3 were on a new page, so I think It's just a coincidence that my last post was the end of page 1250. Perhaps the rebar appeared to you as to you as the start because you've "ignored" some of the discussion?

No, I haven't ignored anyone ... at least not using archinect's "Ignore User" feature.

What Non said. There was a massive spambot post - three posts that were each maybe 5,000 words long, plus video. They have been nuked.

Nope, pretty sure it was AlinaF getting all their posts on TC nuked. AlinaF had posts on page 1245 (see AUG 15, 18 5:19 PM, and AUG 21, 18 7:21 PM in cached version here) that are missing from the current page. Nuking those older posts (and others they had on other pages) would have reordered the page numbering from those posts forward, which is why I recalled beta's post at the top of this page, but now it is my post.

Here's another one of AlinaF's TC posts that got nuked, MAR 8, 19 6:01 PM cached here, current here.

tduds

What happened with AlinaF?

Non Sequitur

^his/her comment on my son's birthday post was nasty uncalled for. I guess the big green head agreed. Those nuked comments are no big loss as most of that user's contribution was lazy snark and thinly-veiled racism.

I never saw the comment, but I usually agree with the BGH's actions on things like this. Looks like the result is similar to Rick's ban from TC. No loss for me. I was just trying to figure out why TC wasn't like I remembered it. Mainly just making sure my mind was working and I wasn't imagining things where they weren't.

curtkram

the world keeps changing EA. codes change, expectations change, people change, TC changes. Don't get old and complacent because that's annoying. Got to keep up with change.

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