super cool sarah. i grew up with semi-pro (or semi-amateur?) stock car racer and always loved riding on the track and strapping into the drivers seat when given the chance. awesome to watch the races too. F1 track must be beyond cool.
today I wrote a script to replace all detail notes that say "metal panel" with "solid gold panel." Already sent along to structural engineer so they can coordinate. let's see if our cost estimator catches it.
VE, as you know, curt, is "supposed" to be a very formal "scientific" process. In the end, we all know it's done in the conference room, over a handshake ... or an argument.
Love the use of the term VE! Nobody follows the "rules," though. (?)
nam, oklahoma joes for bbq. might be a long line. the nelson atkins museum and bloch addition, which glows at night. last time i was there they had a lot of chairs you can't sit in. we have a new performing arts center by moshe safdie. i haven't been in it, but driving by isn't so bad. if you want to walk down the street in a retail area, the country club plaza isn't so bad. there are fountains. they have an art fair towards later september, but that might be too late for you. also, first fridays is good for people who like art. those tend to be on the first friday of each month. you might be able to sign up for a tour of boulevard. they make beer. beer is good.
i know you meant that for vado, but i live in KC so i figured I'd butt in.
^ Curious what you think of Safdie's arts center. His work is more about human factors and performance than most other firms. Probably why he's not on the starchitecf circuit.
i was in kc on mother's day and we were down in country club plaza and at the nelson atkins which is definitely worth a visit. jsut don't jam your hip on the lousy stair detail. i never realized it was so hilly in kc. liked it a lot!
KC is one of those places that comes up high on the QOL studies, yet is not on most people's radar screen and most people don't get to know it because it's not a major connecting airport. You get to see it if you cross America on I-70 and you get to see the nice topography. Some people end up there on corporate transfers, often in this bedroom community called Overland Park KS. It's supposed to be real nice, but they also say it's really Stepford, at least in the suburbs.
It's sort of like northern Florida. Gainesville is flat, but Tallahassee on the Panhandle (along I-10) is full of hills and pines.
About Arkansas, it's one of those places people from the coasts would dismiss because it's AR. A lot of people, even from California, end up in Hot Springs (Village), AR to retire and they say how scenic it is and how great of a choice it was.
curtkram, thanks for the tips... as to observan't point i know a few people who have lived their (for jobs) at various points in last ten yrs and had nothing but good things to say about KC....
yes, nam, I'd like curt to weigh in on KC, since he is the ambassador for that metro. I've heard real nice people, I've heard Stepford, I've heard that it's overzealous on church attendance, I've heard that everyone marries real early and cranks out kids, I've heard it has progressive urban planning and architecture, I've heard it has a thriving art scene, and lastly, I've heard of some "Californication" by the prevalence of new stucco McMansions in some newer, manicured parts of metro KC. I saw some pictures of that. I sort of laughed. Stucco does best in a dry climate, unless it's the "fake" stuff, like what they use in Vancouver BC because of the moisture. Stucco smack in the middle of the country is a head scratcher. Personally, I like 4 sided brick, maybe because I didn't grow up with it.
i didn't mean to put forward the suggestion that i am an ambassador. i do, however, live in kansas city (i have kansas city address and vote for the mayor of kansas city). i work in overland park, so i'm also familiar with this area. i would not disagree with the stepford comment for the johnson county kansas side. while my opinion is not any more valid than anyone else, my perspective is due to the fact that i drive in rush hour traffic in this area most every day. that does not make me special, it's just a geographic thing that is.
regarding the urban planning, there was a push for the power and light district, which is close to the sprint center. not my cup of tea, but it could be worth checking out if you're interested in trendy bar scene type things. they have PBR (which means pro bull riding, not pabst blue ribbon) where you can ride a mechanical bull, so that's kind of neat sort of. anyway, i'm pretty sure it was just an out of town developer with private equity who poured a ton of money into out of town establishments, and i'm pretty sure it's fairly successful.
i would rather go a local strip mall place in waldo because that's my neighborhood.
I nominated AND elected you! Mostly, I'd like to see the new architecture, all the fountains, and The Plaza. But, about the stucco McMansions sitting on fake lakes ... seriously? And is it troweled on stucco, using several coats?
A 5.1 earthquake was felt in Ottawa, Canada. If anyone has looked at a seismic map of the U.S., it's not just the Pacific Coast. There is an active seismic area in the Ozarks and another swath called the Boston-Ottawa trend, and I've know about it for a long time. So this is no surprise. I wonder if this will mean some minor changes in the building codes.
Ok, so it's the trowled multi-coat approach instead of a final coat on foam/EIFS for color/texture. Typically, the former is the Southwest approach whereas the latter is the Vancouver approach. So much of that in Van, with brick veneer up to the window sills of the first floor, and EIFS above it, either in single family McMansion or multifamily construction. I like the monolithic look of it, but it just looks wrong in a "colder" climate.
Typically an inadequate flashing at openings and detailing of joints/cavities to weep problem, from what I recall, especially when this technology was newer and clients/users in colder climates wanted that look. That's why it belongs in the Pacific Southwest and SW desert states, at low altitudes.
I suggest reading "What is the Matter with Kansas" by Thomas Frank (2004). It is a wacky book, but most revealing and at the same time a fun read. I think I read it in like 2007. Don't think things have changed much. I dated a Kansas Lady who was a Pretty Bird, and one day she flew away.
I know a lady who lived in the Missouri suburbs of metro KC, moving there from the East Coast. She said that people are excessively preoccupied with where you go to church and your family constellation.
Q: "So, you're married, right?"
A: "No." (perplexed look by Q)
Q: "You're not? But you have children right?"
A: "No." (look of horror by Q)
She moved away. She got sick of it. I like looking at those real estate guides or real estate websites, and Lee's Summit, MO looks like it has some nice housing options. I don't know if it would be Stepford, cool, or just kind of vanilla, in terms of the populace.
i've not seen the church and kids thing at all. not even a little. i know people with kids, and i know people who go to church. while i do often know their kids and i know where they go to church, they are not preoccupied with it. i do not got to church, i do not have kids, and i'm pretty sure noone here has thought less of me because of that. i think what high school you went to is more significant. i am an outsider, so i don't really fit in to those conversations.
i suppose it should be noted that many of the public schools in kansas city are really bad, so unless there is something preventing you (typically socio-economic), if you have kids you either put them in parochial school or you move out of the city. in that sense i suppose church is relevant?
observant, EIFS has been the subject of numerous lawsuits including class actions over thousands of failures. Manufacturers tried to blame architects for bad details and contractors for improper installation. The situation is so bad and so widespread that a number of states have banned barrier-type EIFS systems and some home insurers have stopped covering houses with EIFS.
It's not bad flashing, it's a faulty system. The dew point is behind the insulation, often somewhere in the framing, which causes condensation in or on the framing and which is trapped there by the "barrier system" causing rot and black mold. I know of at least half-a-dozen houses locally that are riddled with both for exactly this reason, and have yet to see one that isn't. Anyone who specs or installs this shit should be prepared for a lawsuit.
kansas city was full of hipster doofus and suburban daytrippers. as far as what the people on the coasts think. i have lived on one coast and it was filled with backward ass thinking parochial big city townies. any city of a certain size will have a share of culture and unique qualities. you just have to go there and find it.
Styrofoam (aerated polystrene foam) is bad choice for green building. Oil based, manufacturing by-proucts include a smorgasbord of toxic chemicals, outgasses, incredibly toxic when burned, non-biodegradable, nearly impossible to dispose of, etc.
They call it next generation to try and separate themselves from all the bad press EIFS has had in the past. I'm sure the barriers have gotten better, but it still doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the system. They'd probably be better off just calling it Vancouver stucco.
Foam products are great insulators and with CI requirements showing up more and more in the codes we'll be seeing a lot more of it. I just wish there was a better, industry-wide, method of dealing with it from a cradle-to-cradle standpoint.
How manufacturers deal with waste foam in terms of their production processes seems to be one thing product reps are always eager to brag about. But ask them what they offer in terms of recycling or disposing of old foam from say a demolition site. I think I've heard one tell me that if it's clean it can be reused. So it's up to a contractor to save it, store it, and convince the next client that it's just as good and the new stuff.
She lived in the suburbs. She was working for a Catholic organization. But I have heard it from a few others, too, who lived in KC metro. The age at which people marry in that metro area is lower than that of many others.
As for housing, I like the traditional wood siding and brick combination, with more hips than gables. In fact, I'd be happier if it didn't have gables at all. Let's face it, middle class architects don't live in "really cool" houses, contrary to what people think. This house is just an example of the Northwest style (from NorCal into BC, Canada) that was in vogue in the early 90s (clearly there are other better renditions designed by architects and not drafters), which has given way to Craftsman, almost exclusively. The transom window in the living room is a dead give-away. It would look better if it didn't have that gable up top, nor that errant round headed window in the gable. The chimney could have been brick. It has an oddity or two in the roof planes' junctions. The other elevations suck. All the bedrooms are upstairs. It was obviously designed for mass market consumption. I've noticed that the new(er) stuff in KC is heavily into gables, though.
Hipsters are in every major city I've experienced, and in bigger numbers than I'd like to see. We went from granolas to hipsters at the blink of an eye. People who have to make a statement so as to identify with a group are annoying. This includes the preppies, too. I guess it's easier to find like-minded friends that way. And I'm still trying to figure out what granolas and hipsters have in common ... and what they don't. What I do know is that hipsters are typically smug when they serve you coffee at the coffeehouses they work at. With granolas, it's a wild card.
So what did they do to achieve the stucco look in the N.E. prior to EIFS? Three coat stucco? It would have required a lot of maintenance - actually in any northern tier climate. What options are there instead of EIFS, new version included, if a client wants that monolithic troweled exterior look for their home?
Consult Disney's architects in Orlando or Burbank to get the specs for whatever faux blocks they use for an exhibit that looks like it's near the Arctic Circle. And that would be "cool," since block units are the norm for "house" construction in South Florida. (I've always wondered what the line of demarcation was for wood studs to masonry units for house construction in Florida, going from north to south).
Ok, then, for the igloo in Florida, one would have to bring an enclosure consultant on board. Or, they could actually design a reinforced concrete dome, and then apply some exterior surface, with the scoring, to make it look like (faux) igloo blocks, and then apply some upper coat of finish to make it look shiny and frosty, like ice. Some consultant would be required along the way, especially to weigh in on the likelihood of performance. It would remind people in Florida of something kitsch, just like one has over-sized donuts and hot dogs which dot the Southern California landscape, as beacons for what is sold there.
Spent the morning with my lady friend...http://blog.preservationnation.org/2013/05/09/skees-diner-a-slice-of-americana-in-progress/#.UZgUtpyE5wR. We have her moved and stored in a warehouse. The guy who moved her actually on his own accord assembled an W Flange Beam structure underneath her after off loading her from the Flat Bed Truck. So this morning we assembled some 6X6 wood cribbing under both ends of the diner just to be sure there were no odd stresses acting on her frame. We are a manageable group of people so things actually moved along smoothly and we were done by 10:30 so everyone was off to do their Saturday things. Mine was starting the prep work to paint my garage. It was a beautiful day so I didn't mind being outside doing some home improvement labor.
^
Mostly, I'm trying to visualize HOW the asshole stole it. Did he walk away with it as if it was a stroller, did he throw it into a vehicle, or did he walk down the street pretending to do bicep curls with it? Weird.
Thinking he must of had the "Lawn Mowing Swagger." You know the one where Vado goes into the house for a cold beer comes back out side and damn the thing is no where in sight. I had a snow shovel toe the same thing a few years ago. I thought who the hell would steal a snow shovel by coming into someones yard and grab the thing and run, when I was all but ten feet away grabbing some nutrition.
Thread Central
Sarah....You got Your own two Hunks.....no need to be looking! You coming to LimeRock anytime soon?
I WILL be at COTA, our new Texas F1 track in June. Husband gets to drive it in our car. I'm gonna bum rides from others just for the thrill.
super cool sarah. i grew up with semi-pro (or semi-amateur?) stock car racer and always loved riding on the track and strapping into the drivers seat when given the chance. awesome to watch the races too. F1 track must be beyond cool.
just rolled back into the delta. i think i want to move to fayetteville, arkansas. love love love it. kansas city is pretty kick ass, as well.
toaster's productivity update #2488:
today I wrote a script to replace all detail notes that say "metal panel" with "solid gold panel." Already sent along to structural engineer so they can coordinate. let's see if our cost estimator catches it.
that is totally going to get VEed down to plated gold.
^
VE, as you know, curt, is "supposed" to be a very formal "scientific" process. In the end, we all know it's done in the conference room, over a handshake ... or an argument.
Love the use of the term VE! Nobody follows the "rules," though. (?)
#vado, i will be road-tripping across UF later this summer any tips for stops in Kansas City?
toaster ++
VE is an oxymoron.
I guess if I were working in revit it would have been automatic.
nam, oklahoma joes for bbq. might be a long line. the nelson atkins museum and bloch addition, which glows at night. last time i was there they had a lot of chairs you can't sit in. we have a new performing arts center by moshe safdie. i haven't been in it, but driving by isn't so bad. if you want to walk down the street in a retail area, the country club plaza isn't so bad. there are fountains. they have an art fair towards later september, but that might be too late for you. also, first fridays is good for people who like art. those tend to be on the first friday of each month. you might be able to sign up for a tour of boulevard. they make beer. beer is good.
i know you meant that for vado, but i live in KC so i figured I'd butt in.
^ Curious what you think of Safdie's arts center. His work is more about human factors and performance than most other firms. Probably why he's not on the starchitecf circuit.
i was in kc on mother's day and we were down in country club plaza and at the nelson atkins which is definitely worth a visit. jsut don't jam your hip on the lousy stair detail. i never realized it was so hilly in kc. liked it a lot!
^
KC is one of those places that comes up high on the QOL studies, yet is not on most people's radar screen and most people don't get to know it because it's not a major connecting airport. You get to see it if you cross America on I-70 and you get to see the nice topography. Some people end up there on corporate transfers, often in this bedroom community called Overland Park KS. It's supposed to be real nice, but they also say it's really Stepford, at least in the suburbs.
It's sort of like northern Florida. Gainesville is flat, but Tallahassee on the Panhandle (along I-10) is full of hills and pines.
About Arkansas, it's one of those places people from the coasts would dismiss because it's AR. A lot of people, even from California, end up in Hot Springs (Village), AR to retire and they say how scenic it is and how great of a choice it was.
curtkram, thanks for the tips... as to observan't point i know a few people who have lived their (for jobs) at various points in last ten yrs and had nothing but good things to say about KC....
also good morning all.
yes, nam, I'd like curt to weigh in on KC, since he is the ambassador for that metro. I've heard real nice people, I've heard Stepford, I've heard that it's overzealous on church attendance, I've heard that everyone marries real early and cranks out kids, I've heard it has progressive urban planning and architecture, I've heard it has a thriving art scene, and lastly, I've heard of some "Californication" by the prevalence of new stucco McMansions in some newer, manicured parts of metro KC. I saw some pictures of that. I sort of laughed. Stucco does best in a dry climate, unless it's the "fake" stuff, like what they use in Vancouver BC because of the moisture. Stucco smack in the middle of the country is a head scratcher. Personally, I like 4 sided brick, maybe because I didn't grow up with it.
Oui, bonjour a les personnes sur archinect.
Archinect in Klingon.
i didn't mean to put forward the suggestion that i am an ambassador. i do, however, live in kansas city (i have kansas city address and vote for the mayor of kansas city). i work in overland park, so i'm also familiar with this area. i would not disagree with the stepford comment for the johnson county kansas side. while my opinion is not any more valid than anyone else, my perspective is due to the fact that i drive in rush hour traffic in this area most every day. that does not make me special, it's just a geographic thing that is.
regarding the urban planning, there was a push for the power and light district, which is close to the sprint center. not my cup of tea, but it could be worth checking out if you're interested in trendy bar scene type things. they have PBR (which means pro bull riding, not pabst blue ribbon) where you can ride a mechanical bull, so that's kind of neat sort of. anyway, i'm pretty sure it was just an out of town developer with private equity who poured a ton of money into out of town establishments, and i'm pretty sure it's fairly successful.
i would rather go a local strip mall place in waldo because that's my neighborhood.
^
I nominated AND elected you! Mostly, I'd like to see the new architecture, all the fountains, and The Plaza. But, about the stucco McMansions sitting on fake lakes ... seriously? And is it troweled on stucco, using several coats?
This just in.
A 5.1 earthquake was felt in Ottawa, Canada. If anyone has looked at a seismic map of the U.S., it's not just the Pacific Coast. There is an active seismic area in the Ozarks and another swath called the Boston-Ottawa trend, and I've know about it for a long time. So this is no surprise. I wonder if this will mean some minor changes in the building codes.
Boston-Ottawa trend:
http://bulletin.geoscienceworld.org/content/89/11/1656.abstract
i have seen troweled stucco mcmansions on a fake lake. i wouldn't say that's the norm though.
Ok, so it's the trowled multi-coat approach instead of a final coat on foam/EIFS for color/texture. Typically, the former is the Southwest approach whereas the latter is the Vancouver approach. So much of that in Van, with brick veneer up to the window sills of the first floor, and EIFS above it, either in single family McMansion or multifamily construction. I like the monolithic look of it, but it just looks wrong in a "colder" climate.
I have yet to see artificial stucco on wood frame that isnt riddled with rot and black mold.
Typically an inadequate flashing at openings and detailing of joints/cavities to weep problem, from what I recall, especially when this technology was newer and clients/users in colder climates wanted that look. That's why it belongs in the Pacific Southwest and SW desert states, at low altitudes.
I suggest reading "What is the Matter with Kansas" by Thomas Frank (2004). It is a wacky book, but most revealing and at the same time a fun read. I think I read it in like 2007. Don't think things have changed much. I dated a Kansas Lady who was a Pretty Bird, and one day she flew away.
^
I know a lady who lived in the Missouri suburbs of metro KC, moving there from the East Coast. She said that people are excessively preoccupied with where you go to church and your family constellation.
Q: "So, you're married, right?"
A: "No." (perplexed look by Q)
Q: "You're not? But you have children right?"
A: "No." (look of horror by Q)
She moved away. She got sick of it. I like looking at those real estate guides or real estate websites, and Lee's Summit, MO looks like it has some nice housing options. I don't know if it would be Stepford, cool, or just kind of vanilla, in terms of the populace.
i've not seen the church and kids thing at all. not even a little. i know people with kids, and i know people who go to church. while i do often know their kids and i know where they go to church, they are not preoccupied with it. i do not got to church, i do not have kids, and i'm pretty sure noone here has thought less of me because of that. i think what high school you went to is more significant. i am an outsider, so i don't really fit in to those conversations.
i suppose it should be noted that many of the public schools in kansas city are really bad, so unless there is something preventing you (typically socio-economic), if you have kids you either put them in parochial school or you move out of the city. in that sense i suppose church is relevant?
observant, EIFS has been the subject of numerous lawsuits including class actions over thousands of failures. Manufacturers tried to blame architects for bad details and contractors for improper installation. The situation is so bad and so widespread that a number of states have banned barrier-type EIFS systems and some home insurers have stopped covering houses with EIFS.
It's not bad flashing, it's a faulty system. The dew point is behind the insulation, often somewhere in the framing, which causes condensation in or on the framing and which is trapped there by the "barrier system" causing rot and black mold. I know of at least half-a-dozen houses locally that are riddled with both for exactly this reason, and have yet to see one that isn't. Anyone who specs or installs this shit should be prepared for a lawsuit.
Vancouver Stucco
kansas city was full of hipster doofus and suburban daytrippers. as far as what the people on the coasts think. i have lived on one coast and it was filled with backward ass thinking parochial big city townies. any city of a certain size will have a share of culture and unique qualities. you just have to go there and find it.
Brian: "Next Generation EIFS"?
Styrofoam (aerated polystrene foam) is bad choice for green building. Oil based, manufacturing by-proucts include a smorgasbord of toxic chemicals, outgasses, incredibly toxic when burned, non-biodegradable, nearly impossible to dispose of, etc.
They call it next generation to try and separate themselves from all the bad press EIFS has had in the past. I'm sure the barriers have gotten better, but it still doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the system. They'd probably be better off just calling it Vancouver stucco.
Foam products are great insulators and with CI requirements showing up more and more in the codes we'll be seeing a lot more of it. I just wish there was a better, industry-wide, method of dealing with it from a cradle-to-cradle standpoint.
How manufacturers deal with waste foam in terms of their production processes seems to be one thing product reps are always eager to brag about. But ask them what they offer in terms of recycling or disposing of old foam from say a demolition site. I think I've heard one tell me that if it's clean it can be reused. So it's up to a contractor to save it, store it, and convince the next client that it's just as good and the new stuff.
curt:
She lived in the suburbs. She was working for a Catholic organization. But I have heard it from a few others, too, who lived in KC metro. The age at which people marry in that metro area is lower than that of many others.
As for housing, I like the traditional wood siding and brick combination, with more hips than gables. In fact, I'd be happier if it didn't have gables at all. Let's face it, middle class architects don't live in "really cool" houses, contrary to what people think. This house is just an example of the Northwest style (from NorCal into BC, Canada) that was in vogue in the early 90s (clearly there are other better renditions designed by architects and not drafters), which has given way to Craftsman, almost exclusively. The transom window in the living room is a dead give-away. It would look better if it didn't have that gable up top, nor that errant round headed window in the gable. The chimney could have been brick. It has an oddity or two in the roof planes' junctions. The other elevations suck. All the bedrooms are upstairs. It was obviously designed for mass market consumption. I've noticed that the new(er) stuff in KC is heavily into gables, though.
http://www.houseplans.net/floorplans/69200025/
vado:
Hipsters are in every major city I've experienced, and in bigger numbers than I'd like to see. We went from granolas to hipsters at the blink of an eye. People who have to make a statement so as to identify with a group are annoying. This includes the preppies, too. I guess it's easier to find like-minded friends that way. And I'm still trying to figure out what granolas and hipsters have in common ... and what they don't. What I do know is that hipsters are typically smug when they serve you coffee at the coffeehouses they work at. With granolas, it's a wild card.
Miles:
So what did they do to achieve the stucco look in the N.E. prior to EIFS? Three coat stucco? It would have required a lot of maintenance - actually in any northern tier climate. What options are there instead of EIFS, new version included, if a client wants that monolithic troweled exterior look for their home?
In NY hipsters are readily identified by pork pie hats.
Anywhere I've been hipsters are readily identifiable by their BAD attitude.
^ I try not to get that close.
re EIFS:
Three coats is best. And good detailing. And regular maintenance.
After showing the client performance data and litigation history for EIFS I think they'd be happy to entertain alternatives.
What would you tell a client who wanted to build an igloo in Florida?
^
Consult Disney's architects in Orlando or Burbank to get the specs for whatever faux blocks they use for an exhibit that looks like it's near the Arctic Circle. And that would be "cool," since block units are the norm for "house" construction in South Florida. (I've always wondered what the line of demarcation was for wood studs to masonry units for house construction in Florida, going from north to south).
Disney uses artificial sto over carved styrofoam.
Ok, then, for the igloo in Florida, one would have to bring an enclosure consultant on board. Or, they could actually design a reinforced concrete dome, and then apply some exterior surface, with the scoring, to make it look like (faux) igloo blocks, and then apply some upper coat of finish to make it look shiny and frosty, like ice. Some consultant would be required along the way, especially to weigh in on the likelihood of performance. It would remind people in Florida of something kitsch, just like one has over-sized donuts and hot dogs which dot the Southern California landscape, as beacons for what is sold there.
Spent the morning with my lady friend...http://blog.preservationnation.org/2013/05/09/skees-diner-a-slice-of-americana-in-progress/#.UZgUtpyE5wR. We have her moved and stored in a warehouse. The guy who moved her actually on his own accord assembled an W Flange Beam structure underneath her after off loading her from the Flat Bed Truck. So this morning we assembled some 6X6 wood cribbing under both ends of the diner just to be sure there were no odd stresses acting on her frame. We are a manageable group of people so things actually moved along smoothly and we were done by 10:30 so everyone was off to do their Saturday things. Mine was starting the prep work to paint my garage. It was a beautiful day so I didn't mind being outside doing some home improvement labor.
s-d-d:
I envy you. A warm, sunny spring day, presumably in New England, sounds great.
some asshole stole our lawnmower. i loved our lawnmower.
WTF?
I gave my lawn mower away. I hated it.
^
Mostly, I'm trying to visualize HOW the asshole stole it. Did he walk away with it as if it was a stroller, did he throw it into a vehicle, or did he walk down the street pretending to do bicep curls with it? Weird.
Thinking he must of had the "Lawn Mowing Swagger." You know the one where Vado goes into the house for a cold beer comes back out side and damn the thing is no where in sight. I had a snow shovel toe the same thing a few years ago. I thought who the hell would steal a snow shovel by coming into someones yard and grab the thing and run, when I was all but ten feet away grabbing some nutrition.
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