hi - I had the flu this past week. I don't think it was the swine - but whatever it was, it was horrid - knocked me out for several days.
I visited Corbu's Carpenter Center for the 100th time on Monday. I really want to like this building (there are moments that are really wonderful) - but I end up getting museum-tired after walking around for 30 minutes. There's really no moment in the building where you feel any sense of containment or relaxation - it's always motion... throwing you out and bringing you in. you feel like a kid's bath-toy in the water while the tub is getting filled - constantly getting sucked under the faucet, pushed underwater and then flung back halfway down the tub, over and over again.
toaster, I wasn't too keen on the carpenter center either. I couldn't quite put my finger on it... my reaction kind of saddened me a bit.
"this place" refers to archinect in general. TC being the exception. It's just... a lot of turbulence and, kind of, pessimism I guess. Which matches my own mood, which makes it a downward mental cycle.
I am struggling with an invoice for a friend. They told me not to discount my services, but I am anyway (just a bit, as a token gesture), and I STILL think the invoice is going to freak them out, and they need a lot of interior design services because they own quite a few properties, so there's the prospect of them hiring me again if they think my price is good, but on the other hand, if I undercut my price too much now, then I will have a hard time raising it later if I *do* get more work with them...
ARGH. I hate this. I know everyone else faces this same dllemma constantly. Any encouraging words?
well... seems like I did have the swine. Our neighbor on our office's floor just came over and said "oh yeah, our whole office had it last week." two of my coworkers had it this past week, and at least 4 more people in the building have it now (geesh, I wish they'd told us that it was going around).
If you haven't caught it yet - you'll feel kind of off for a day, then you'll feel a little better, then suddenly you'll feel like you were hit by a freight train. It lasts a few days, and there's a fever (I sweat through two sets of sheets - not pleasant) - at least there's no stomach stuff... I think I should have stayed home today, though.
I'm good. Moms husband is happy with his house so far. That's good. Really good. Soon I will have my guestroom completely finished and up for you to see. My teacher test is a week from Tuesday. My brother is supposed to school me in the math section tomorow. Wish me luck.
manta - "they own quite a few properties," enough said. They probably paid real estate agents, lawyers, tax professionals, etc etc. I'm sure architects' fees won't be much of a problem. How can others value our services when we don't value them ourselves?
toaster - ooh, thats tough. Hope you get better. I remember I had the flu just as the H1N1 hit the news. I didn't really suspect it could be H1N1, but it really was the worst flu I've ever had.
lletdown - I guess you found the book on your own! I've had this on my "To Do List" for a while now: Find that french movie. It was referring to this one time when I caught a brief part of a B&W french movie where the main characters kind of talk to each other as if they're right next to each other, but they're not (and not on phones or anything like that). I thought it was going to be some obscure movie. I think I found it yesterday by looking through IMDB and on IFC websites: La fille sur le pont.
manta, what I tend to do with those invoices is not discount my hourly rate, but just knock off a few hours. Not too many though. That way on subsequent projects you're not raising your rate, and it takes as many hours as it takes.
oh & the reason that archinect forums are kind of a bummer is because there's always alot of complaining here. oddly enough, 99% of the bitching can be summed up under the "i wish i was born rich" meme...the other 1% is just me crying about the state of my fingernails.
you guys are awesome - blog lecture here I come.... cough cough not curating social media ;)
Just in from the design studio, I saw 19 students in the space of 3 hours - crazy. I'll be seeing some tomorrow as well - they best know they are buying the drinks next time we are all out.
wish I could sleep. sick cat. not sure if he will make it. didn't rush him to the vet emergency room, since we wanted to keep him comfortable. strange thing was we saw the vet this afternoon, then he got much worse this evening. maybe giving him a bowl of milk was a bad idea or maybe it was the drugs or maybe this is just his end.
[/depressing news]
sad to report, but Doc Seuss passed away 10 minutes after I posted last night. He is now resting in my garden, where he loved to play.
[/depressing news]
Ok, so I don't want to undercut my rate with these people. But I guess I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what rate to bill at. At firms I've billed around 100 for the last 5 years or so. Discounting 30% for overhead, that would take me down to about 70 on my own. So discounting further as a favor puts me at $60 an hour for this invoice. I'm in a big city. Does that sound reasonable? Is it too high? I have no idea if it's out of whack or not.
Any thoughts would be much, much appreciated!
*rationalist -- I hear you, but I think I'd rather discount my rate than give the impression that the work took less time than it did. Besides, they already ok'ed the hours spent -- just have no clue about the rate. This way, I can list "regular rate" then "discount rate" and then if I charge them regular rate next time, they won't be surprised.
sounds fine to me, you licensed? maybe establish the rate and let 'em know you're giving them a discount for some reason... if your friend has a problem with it, he'll let you know...
negotiation between friends seems like something everyone wants to avoid. you want to make him happy and hit his mark. but really, negotiation is a part of making both sides feel comfortable with the work and number.
...but i don't have too much experience with negotiation.
manta we start high and negotiate from there. it is silly but only way to get a reasonable fee in the end.
we work with bankers who understand percentages like nobody's business and we never come out ahead so we are simply blunt and clear about our fee and how much of a reduction we are making. we don't try to hide behind stories. our experience is that honesty is best way to talk about money. it is the one thing for sure that everyone treats seriously.
if you are afraid of job walking away, just say what your normal rates are and ask them to counter-offer if they like. that is at least professional and they understand where you want to be.
hi all. Treekiller sorry about the puss, at least he gets to play forever in the garden. Mantaray I doubt there is a right answer for your problem, and I recognise that as your friends you would like to offer them a discount on your services. However you are cautious about over-extending yourself, as such I think jump's approach about telling them your standard rate and allowing them to counter may be the best way forward. Being honest with friends is likely the most appropriate solution.
I guess I'm wondering more about the rate itself, rather than how to go about it. I think SW & lb would probably be the best to answer this one, since they are at least in my own region -- I'll just email them. Thanks all!
manta, I've been out of town all weekend and just got back so I see your email but haven't opened it yet. I like rationalist's idea A LOT and that is what we often do for friends: we write on the invoice the number of hours we are giving them for no fee, so they see our hourly rate, they see how long a job actually took, and they know what kind of discount they are getting.
treekiller, I'm sorry to hear about Dr. Seuss. It's nice at least that he died at home, not in the cold sterile vet's office. There is a picture of him back on a TC page in the 50's or 40's - he was a big, lovable boy!
So I went over the math portion of my teaching test with my brother and engineer step brother. Wow. I forgot the equation of a slope. Y=mx+b. It was so foriegn to me. A lot of the math was beyond eigth grade though. Stuff about scatter plotts and probability and statistics. If I'm meant toteachthen I'll pass, if not I won't and I can say I've exhausted another path.
Hehehe lletdownl - I think I've heard that theory before.
Second to last coat of paint went up on the trim today. Boiled off most of the old paint from the hinges. Currently working on round two of that exercise. Looks like I may actually make my deadline of Sunday to finally finish my bathroom project. All that's left to do is the final coat, repaint the walls a new shade, buy new towel rack and put everything back together. Just makes me tired thinking about it.
Hey archi, for real?
Where Miami? Whereabouts. Let me know i might be able to make it. Would love to finally have an archinect meet up (even a mini version).
Anybody know of a place to get free webspace? Husband is thinking of starting a business and a webpage would be nice. I don't know the first thingabout the internets so any advice would be good.
Nam, I'm glad your sister is better.
Is it better to buy a building and make it work or buy land and build a building?
I went to an AIA event tonight, a reception for the only Hoosier to get F'd this year (I assume you all know what F'd means in the context of the AIA). It was a very nice event and he gave a lecture on his firms work. he used the term "narrative architecture" which I had not heard before. It essentially means using stories about the site, context, program, history etc. to inform the shape of the building. For example, the Indiana State Museum here which is clad in the "rough cuts" from the Indiana limestone quarries, so you're tapping into a cultural tradition (limestone) but using it in a way that makes it a new type of construction, which also taps into the notion of pragmatism that blankets the Midwest region.
It's a really nice approach, actually. It gives the building multiple levels on which to connect with the public, and I wonder if this kind of approach - which I think we've tended to dismiss as a bit hokey in the last decade or so - would help the profession's image in the eyes of the general public?
The most deserving FAIA who I know is the spec writer for my current project. I don't think the "F" is a high enough honor for excellent spec writers, though... perhaps sainthood is a closer approximation.
lb - 'narrative' in architecture goes back to the days of Decon (and Beaux Arts, Gothic, Roman, Greek, Egyptian)... Not too common in contemporary practice, except for a few pomo holdouts.
sh - most internet providers, ie your phone company or cable company often provides some web server space for their subscribers (at least they do that for us in the north).
wow Thread Central is still fairly quiet today. Most unusual.
I'm heading up to school to make some final preparations for our film showing next week at the school. Videos should be available for viewing by the end of the next week. But in the meantime I'm a like a nervous father at the birth of his first child - worried that this will be a total disaster... fingers crossed and breaking legs?? Whatever I can for luck
LB - "project narrative" is part of the requirement when you submit for large project review in the city of Boston (since everything requires a zoning variance) - all of those items you've listed are items that must be covered in the narrative. so... while they might not have influenced your design as deeply, you're still going to have to think about them when you present to neighborhood groups and the BRA.
and I feel like a lot of architects approach their work this way... for example, smout allen's work is almost 100% narrative.
treekiller, when I thought of a label that Narrative Architecture was standing in for PoMo is what came to mind. But it's totally not PoMo, not in the way that PoMo was intentionally playing with generic historical motifs.
The climate change thread is cracking me up.
I did a jobsite visit this afternoon and sadly had to tell the carpenters to tear out a bunch of framing as it was wrong. I hate doing that. I think architects have a reputation for being jerks about mistakes but I always feel so sad and mean, even when I'm right. They just missed the interior elevation drawing that shows the wall not going to the ceiling, sadly. Makes me think a little sketchup model would be a good tool for me to give them. <sigh>
aw, liberty, I always hate that. EXCEPT when it's the lazy electricians who just run around the room nailing j-boxes to whatever stud falls closest to an arbitrary 12' length, without once looking at any of the interior elevations which have all outlets specifically drawn on & carefully dimensioned. Those guys, those guys I LOVE to make eat their lazy sloppy work. They're also the ones who brag the most about how much money they make and ask me why I don't own a car, when they drive a BMW. Oh yeah, you're gonna rip out all those boxes and block them in exactly where I asked for them, and I am going to come around with a measuring tape and make you move it again if it is 1 inch off, ya bum.
But the hard-working carpenters who just made one small mistake that got compounded... those guys make me sad. Half the time we end up just trying to work around it, if it's too big a deal to re-do.
Talking about electricians: I just received a change order for running conduit and speaker cable wires and the electrical wiring for a swimming pool sound system and it is over ten grand. That doesn't even cover the cost of the wiring or equipment which is well over another ten grand. I have yet to hear of someone getting a big shock from speaker wires.
Thread Central
oh damn... it wasnt a rhino... it was a hippo...
the unhappy hippo... illustrations area bit more elaborate than i remember them... but still a great book!
?
hi - I had the flu this past week. I don't think it was the swine - but whatever it was, it was horrid - knocked me out for several days.
I visited Corbu's Carpenter Center for the 100th time on Monday. I really want to like this building (there are moments that are really wonderful) - but I end up getting museum-tired after walking around for 30 minutes. There's really no moment in the building where you feel any sense of containment or relaxation - it's always motion... throwing you out and bringing you in. you feel like a kid's bath-toy in the water while the tub is getting filled - constantly getting sucked under the faucet, pushed underwater and then flung back halfway down the tub, over and over again.
toaster, I wasn't too keen on the carpenter center either. I couldn't quite put my finger on it... my reaction kind of saddened me a bit.
"this place" refers to archinect in general. TC being the exception. It's just... a lot of turbulence and, kind of, pessimism I guess. Which matches my own mood, which makes it a downward mental cycle.
Manta,
Glad that TC is the exception to your bummer mood.
lletdownl the book isn't familiar to me..
Toast glad to hear you are better.
Sarah how are you? Doing any more remodeling lately? What about the teacher prep/tests...
this was probably my favorite part of the carpenter center... it was dark and cool... i sat on a rock under the building there for a while...
oops...
I am struggling with an invoice for a friend. They told me not to discount my services, but I am anyway (just a bit, as a token gesture), and I STILL think the invoice is going to freak them out, and they need a lot of interior design services because they own quite a few properties, so there's the prospect of them hiring me again if they think my price is good, but on the other hand, if I undercut my price too much now, then I will have a hard time raising it later if I *do* get more work with them...
ARGH. I hate this. I know everyone else faces this same dllemma constantly. Any encouraging words?
well... seems like I did have the swine. Our neighbor on our office's floor just came over and said "oh yeah, our whole office had it last week." two of my coworkers had it this past week, and at least 4 more people in the building have it now (geesh, I wish they'd told us that it was going around).
If you haven't caught it yet - you'll feel kind of off for a day, then you'll feel a little better, then suddenly you'll feel like you were hit by a freight train. It lasts a few days, and there's a fever (I sweat through two sets of sheets - not pleasant) - at least there's no stomach stuff... I think I should have stayed home today, though.
Good luck?
I'm good. Moms husband is happy with his house so far. That's good. Really good. Soon I will have my guestroom completely finished and up for you to see. My teacher test is a week from Tuesday. My brother is supposed to school me in the math section tomorow. Wish me luck.
manta - "they own quite a few properties," enough said. They probably paid real estate agents, lawyers, tax professionals, etc etc. I'm sure architects' fees won't be much of a problem. How can others value our services when we don't value them ourselves?
toaster - ooh, thats tough. Hope you get better. I remember I had the flu just as the H1N1 hit the news. I didn't really suspect it could be H1N1, but it really was the worst flu I've ever had.
lletdown - I guess you found the book on your own! I've had this on my "To Do List" for a while now: Find that french movie. It was referring to this one time when I caught a brief part of a B&W french movie where the main characters kind of talk to each other as if they're right next to each other, but they're not (and not on phones or anything like that). I thought it was going to be some obscure movie. I think I found it yesterday by looking through IMDB and on IFC websites: La fille sur le pont.
manta, what I tend to do with those invoices is not discount my hourly rate, but just knock off a few hours. Not too many though. That way on subsequent projects you're not raising your rate, and it takes as many hours as it takes.
I think I need a serious Lawyer! Then again maybe I need a new Profession....I'm going to Law School! I'm tired of getting screwed by bad clients.
not to sound desperate or anything...but if somebody doesn't act soon it may become impossible to ever revolt against the state in the usa.
in better news, neither my fingernails nor eyelashes are bothering me today.
oh & the reason that archinect forums are kind of a bummer is because there's always alot of complaining here. oddly enough, 99% of the bitching can be summed up under the "i wish i was born rich" meme...the other 1% is just me crying about the state of my fingernails.
you guys are awesome - blog lecture here I come.... cough cough not curating social media ;)
Just in from the design studio, I saw 19 students in the space of 3 hours - crazy. I'll be seeing some tomorrow as well - they best know they are buying the drinks next time we are all out.
now to mark some papers and head to sleep
wish I could sleep. sick cat. not sure if he will make it. didn't rush him to the vet emergency room, since we wanted to keep him comfortable. strange thing was we saw the vet this afternoon, then he got much worse this evening. maybe giving him a bowl of milk was a bad idea or maybe it was the drugs or maybe this is just his end.
[/depressing news]
sad to report, but Doc Seuss passed away 10 minutes after I posted last night. He is now resting in my garden, where he loved to play.
[/depressing news]
Tree. That sucks..
My cat ran away about 2 yrs ago.
Just got up about an hour ago
catered again last night and more coming Sunday.
Need money for the holiday season
I'm sorry to hear that, tree. :(
WWTCD :
Ok, so I don't want to undercut my rate with these people. But I guess I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what rate to bill at. At firms I've billed around 100 for the last 5 years or so. Discounting 30% for overhead, that would take me down to about 70 on my own. So discounting further as a favor puts me at $60 an hour for this invoice. I'm in a big city. Does that sound reasonable? Is it too high? I have no idea if it's out of whack or not.
Any thoughts would be much, much appreciated!
*rationalist -- I hear you, but I think I'd rather discount my rate than give the impression that the work took less time than it did. Besides, they already ok'ed the hours spent -- just have no clue about the rate. This way, I can list "regular rate" then "discount rate" and then if I charge them regular rate next time, they won't be surprised.
...encouraging words you asked for?
...put the coffee down, coffee is for closers...
sounds fine to me, you licensed? maybe establish the rate and let 'em know you're giving them a discount for some reason... if your friend has a problem with it, he'll let you know...
negotiation between friends seems like something everyone wants to avoid. you want to make him happy and hit his mark. but really, negotiation is a part of making both sides feel comfortable with the work and number.
...but i don't have too much experience with negotiation.
tk, sorry to hear, but there might be a bright side, find thing 1 and thing 2
sad news TK.
manta we start high and negotiate from there. it is silly but only way to get a reasonable fee in the end.
we work with bankers who understand percentages like nobody's business and we never come out ahead so we are simply blunt and clear about our fee and how much of a reduction we are making. we don't try to hide behind stories. our experience is that honesty is best way to talk about money. it is the one thing for sure that everyone treats seriously.
if you are afraid of job walking away, just say what your normal rates are and ask them to counter-offer if they like. that is at least professional and they understand where you want to be.
hi all. Treekiller sorry about the puss, at least he gets to play forever in the garden. Mantaray I doubt there is a right answer for your problem, and I recognise that as your friends you would like to offer them a discount on your services. However you are cautious about over-extending yourself, as such I think jump's approach about telling them your standard rate and allowing them to counter may be the best way forward. Being honest with friends is likely the most appropriate solution.
I guess I'm wondering more about the rate itself, rather than how to go about it. I think SW & lb would probably be the best to answer this one, since they are at least in my own region -- I'll just email them. Thanks all!
goodbye.
Come back, beta!
manta, I've been out of town all weekend and just got back so I see your email but haven't opened it yet. I like rationalist's idea A LOT and that is what we often do for friends: we write on the invoice the number of hours we are giving them for no fee, so they see our hourly rate, they see how long a job actually took, and they know what kind of discount they are getting.
treekiller, I'm sorry to hear about Dr. Seuss. It's nice at least that he died at home, not in the cold sterile vet's office. There is a picture of him back on a TC page in the 50's or 40's - he was a big, lovable boy!
Mornng.
Tk that sucks.
So I went over the math portion of my teaching test with my brother and engineer step brother. Wow. I forgot the equation of a slope. Y=mx+b. It was so foriegn to me. A lot of the math was beyond eigth grade though. Stuff about scatter plotts and probability and statistics. If I'm meant toteachthen I'll pass, if not I won't and I can say I've exhausted another path.
You are worrying me beta. PLEASE COME BACK!!!
hi all...
hey does anyone think that Jack Klompus might be Evil back with a new set of issues to plug?
Hehehe lletdownl - I think I've heard that theory before.
Second to last coat of paint went up on the trim today. Boiled off most of the old paint from the hinges. Currently working on round two of that exercise. Looks like I may actually make my deadline of Sunday to finally finish my bathroom project. All that's left to do is the final coat, repaint the walls a new shade, buy new towel rack and put everything back together. Just makes me tired thinking about it.
hurray, melt
good luck sarah.
might also keep in mind that gem about the big man helping those that help themselves.
mind you, i don't recall doing statistics in 8th grade. that is quite something... i thought usa was like low ranked in the world for math...?
maybe they're trying to increase ranking? i don't know that's why i did social studies 5-9 certification when i did it.
But good luck Sarah.
Jack is definitely dogged.
Nite all.
My roommate and lady are both out of town for the holidays. Luckily more family is coming to replace..
A post recovery party for my sister, as it were, as well.
Nam, I'm going to be in Florida early next year with the missus for a few days. Would love to meet.
night all
Hey archi, for real?
Where Miami? Whereabouts. Let me know i might be able to make it. Would love to finally have an archinect meet up (even a mini version).
Anybody know of a place to get free webspace? Husband is thinking of starting a business and a webpage would be nice. I don't know the first thingabout the internets so any advice would be good.
Nam, I'm glad your sister is better.
Is it better to buy a building and make it work or buy land and build a building?
I went to an AIA event tonight, a reception for the only Hoosier to get F'd this year (I assume you all know what F'd means in the context of the AIA). It was a very nice event and he gave a lecture on his firms work. he used the term "narrative architecture" which I had not heard before. It essentially means using stories about the site, context, program, history etc. to inform the shape of the building. For example, the Indiana State Museum here which is clad in the "rough cuts" from the Indiana limestone quarries, so you're tapping into a cultural tradition (limestone) but using it in a way that makes it a new type of construction, which also taps into the notion of pragmatism that blankets the Midwest region.
It's a really nice approach, actually. It gives the building multiple levels on which to connect with the public, and I wonder if this kind of approach - which I think we've tended to dismiss as a bit hokey in the last decade or so - would help the profession's image in the eyes of the general public?
The most deserving FAIA who I know is the spec writer for my current project. I don't think the "F" is a high enough honor for excellent spec writers, though... perhaps sainthood is a closer approximation.
lb that sounds like predocks act. he was always talking about and using the site's history both cultural/geological etc in his process.
lb - 'narrative' in architecture goes back to the days of Decon (and Beaux Arts, Gothic, Roman, Greek, Egyptian)... Not too common in contemporary practice, except for a few pomo holdouts.
sh - most internet providers, ie your phone company or cable company often provides some web server space for their subscribers (at least they do that for us in the north).
wow Thread Central is still fairly quiet today. Most unusual.
I'm heading up to school to make some final preparations for our film showing next week at the school. Videos should be available for viewing by the end of the next week. But in the meantime I'm a like a nervous father at the birth of his first child - worried that this will be a total disaster... fingers crossed and breaking legs?? Whatever I can for luck
LB - "project narrative" is part of the requirement when you submit for large project review in the city of Boston (since everything requires a zoning variance) - all of those items you've listed are items that must be covered in the narrative. so... while they might not have influenced your design as deeply, you're still going to have to think about them when you present to neighborhood groups and the BRA.
and I feel like a lot of architects approach their work this way... for example, smout allen's work is almost 100% narrative.
I may actually have my 2009 portfolio done by 2010.
bwahahaha.
treekiller, when I thought of a label that Narrative Architecture was standing in for PoMo is what came to mind. But it's totally not PoMo, not in the way that PoMo was intentionally playing with generic historical motifs.
The climate change thread is cracking me up.
I did a jobsite visit this afternoon and sadly had to tell the carpenters to tear out a bunch of framing as it was wrong. I hate doing that. I think architects have a reputation for being jerks about mistakes but I always feel so sad and mean, even when I'm right. They just missed the interior elevation drawing that shows the wall not going to the ceiling, sadly. Makes me think a little sketchup model would be a good tool for me to give them. <sigh>
IMO - narrative architecture sounds an awful lot like critical regionalism.
aw, liberty, I always hate that. EXCEPT when it's the lazy electricians who just run around the room nailing j-boxes to whatever stud falls closest to an arbitrary 12' length, without once looking at any of the interior elevations which have all outlets specifically drawn on & carefully dimensioned. Those guys, those guys I LOVE to make eat their lazy sloppy work. They're also the ones who brag the most about how much money they make and ask me why I don't own a car, when they drive a BMW. Oh yeah, you're gonna rip out all those boxes and block them in exactly where I asked for them, and I am going to come around with a measuring tape and make you move it again if it is 1 inch off, ya bum.
But the hard-working carpenters who just made one small mistake that got compounded... those guys make me sad. Half the time we end up just trying to work around it, if it's too big a deal to re-do.
ha ha...i should start a thread called:
being an electrician is an awesome job if you want to MAKE MONEY!!!
it's actually pretty easy to do but most people are so scared of electrocuting themselves that they happily pay the professionals.
Talking about electricians: I just received a change order for running conduit and speaker cable wires and the electrical wiring for a swimming pool sound system and it is over ten grand. That doesn't even cover the cost of the wiring or equipment which is well over another ten grand. I have yet to hear of someone getting a big shock from speaker wires.
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