manta your mum is right about kids turning over on their own. on other hand my oldest daughter never crawled either. she went from rolling over and over across the room to walking. she was totally on own walkin round house by 9 months old. my youngest was happy to crawl though, and we raised them both the same as far as i can tell except in different countries...
i don't have an i-phone. i want all the kool software and the touch screen and the mp3 playing coolness of the machine but the hardware itself is not so great compared to the phone i have right now...when they come out with star trek flip version of i-phone i will probably get that...
wow seems TC has zoomed away when I was out in the air circling JFK. By far the biggest storm I've heard of in ages. Not a good time to be in the air, not a good time to be making a connecting flight.
So I'm in Cleveland, finally. And have been a busy bee since getting things ready for the missus birthday, culminating in dinner at Michael Symon (from Iron Chef, et al) restaurant Lola's. As well as editing an interview recently conducted with Michael Graves - thanks guys for your input (snarky or otherwise) all of it helped shaped the questions in one way or another.
@LB looking forward to seeing the new renderings, I've always felt that design-build returns architects to our Greek roots as masterbuilders not just facilitators as we often are relegated to.
@Midwest tc'ers I'll be most saddened that everyone will likely be meeting up when I'd of left, especially since I'm so close. Damn it
Blood pressure is boiling. Just hung out with an old co-worker. After a few beers, we found out he made 10k more than me. Same # years of experience, same type of degree. I wasn't technically his boss (we had the same title), but he treated me like I was and he told me he considered me his manager, he came to me for much of his work.
What is even more messed up is I had asked for a raise (coincidentally to exactly what this guy made) and my principal wanted to give it to me, told me I was definitely worth it. But he couldn't get it approved by the CFO. If only I had a penis! I really can't think of a reason to stay in this profession. Not a single one, I don't think my heart can take it.
That is incredibly infuriating Straw and incredibly unfair. Perhaps it's just my jaded self, but what makes you think this doesn't happen in any other industry?
i vote golf...assuming you can afford the $400 green's fees to get on the elite courses.
on second though, you should juxt try video games instead. this is kprobably old news ot everybody here...but i just found out that some guy named billy mitchell scored a perfect scoreon pac man...and this happened like ten years ago. everything about this guy sounds perfect...even his trademark american flag tie
i wonder if he's ever posed in a banana hammock? that would be an interesting snapshot with that american tie
oh, and did anyone else notice that not only did that webiste feature underpants for hands (increadibly stupid idea because there are no pants for hands) but it also feature underpants for squirrels (maybe not a bad idea because squirrels live in the city and could probably calm dwn and behave in a more mature fashion if they wore pants and if we have to start somewhree then why not underpants for squirrels)....and even better yet offered a painting of a squirrel in underpants! available here at mcphee.com
melt - it doesn't really happen with teaching in the public system (charters are a whole other story, though) - you get paid based on your education and years of experience. other government jobs are also pretty good about paying fair wages - that and unions.
i'd say being white, male, and married has helped me stay in jobs longer than I should have... once I have a kid, then I'm set - i can't get fired unless I totally f- things up.
That's good to hear toaster, unfortunately I'm honestly not sure if that's the case in most cases. I would hope so, I've just heard stories from others that prove otherwise.
In other news... two photos I took today of my ongoing project to create an area of river pebble.
From my neighbor's yard
Still need to trim my river birch to open up the space.
*m wow! That's an amazing little landscape area - I can imagine sipping mojitos under the trees. I'm getting ahead of myself - go finish the work. Go build a bench from fallen trees and large boulders
strawbeary, that does suck. I will only offer that it isn't necessarily sexism, but that your negotiating skills/willingness to take a chance at the initial hiring stage play a bigger role than anything. At my last arch firm, a girl who got hired several months before me, who had a masters from an ivy league school (that was our boss's alma mater no less), was making far less than I was. Why? Because when they asked what I wanted to be making I was willing to look the interviewer in the eye and aim high, whereas she being a more timid personality was cowed into a lower number by the intimidation of having to name it aloud. When they were trying to replace me, I overheard the interview of my eventual replacement, and when they asked him he named a figure that was $3k less than I started at more than two years before. Do you think they tossed more money at him in the name of fairness? Hell no, he came in to do the same job as me making less money, and it had nothing to do with sex. I'm not saying that sex could not have played some part in your situation, but I'd encourage you to think about the other factors that could have been involved first.
melt that looks awesome. Trying to figure out what the light-colored area wayyy down below your property is (in the corner of the second photo). A river of some sort?
Strawbeary... that makes my stomach ache. I have a very similar story I could tell you, that I know of for SURE, and have often had similar suspicions along the way as well. It just... makes my heart hurt. So aggravating. And toaster is right -- there is an insane prejudice towards married folk in this biz. I feel sorry for the homosexual / transgendered / anyone who doesn't fit in that box... I'm sure they're even worse off.
I don't even want to tell my story because it would make you break your computer in a fit of rage. Or it would make me do that. Ugh. Best not to dwell on these things.
I, too, want to be self-employed... but then I saw how much health insurance costs for the self-employed, over on the health insurance thread. Eek.
Rationalist- it is "woman" not "girl". I know you're well meaning, but having worked for two separate firms where principals would make female employees "fetch coffee" and do interiors regardless of education or experience, I can assure you that sexism is alive and well in our profession.
my mother's union sued her employer about 20 years ago for back pay to cover the salary disparity between her and her male counterparts. she had worked for like 20 years or so at a lower rate simply for being female. i don't remember how much she was paid back. doubt it covered the actual difference, but still...
sexism is def built into japanese archi-system. shame really.
toasteroven--ok, if you insist. If she said "The girl who worked next to me made way more than I did!" I wouldn't be offended, but if we're going to get picky about terminology, whatever. We were both quite young though. And I'm not saying that sexism doesn't exist, just that I believe that salary discrepancies more commonly originate from the silence surrounding pay and the uncertainty of candidates about what to ask for.
Strawbeary that makes me feel sick too. Serendipity works in mysterious ways though. On the same day that I found out I hadn't gotten a bonus at my first job out of college, over 5 years ago now, I also ran into an old grade school friend who worked at an architecture firm and - voila! I moved on to a new job less than a month later. And the bastardo who cheated me out of my bonus, who treated me like I didn't exist because he didn't know how to treat women, well, he got himself fired 6 months later for incompetence. Karma's a b*tch! Your persistence, diligence, and work ethic will pay many dividends to you in the long run. (Sorry, I know I've told that story a million times. Did I mention that I was in costume on the day this happened? That makes it better.)
So, that clip from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia was hilarious!
I went on a bike ride today and took a pretty nasty spill. Fortunately I didn't go over my front handlebars, but I did end up on my side in a ditch. My left knee took the brunt of it...and it looks totally gnarly now. Ha. Battle scars.
the other day i was out driving on a rather busy street and this is what i saw before me. turning onto the street from a sidestreet was a truck. not a semi but a large delivery type truck and on the sidewalk was this guy who was on a bike. he wasn't riding he was either beginning or stopping, he had his feet on the pedals. well he started teetering and fell over off the curb and lay sprawled out in the street. fortunately the truck, having just turned onto the street, was travelling at a low rate of speed. because it was right there when this guy fell. a second later or a few miles an hour faster on the trucks part and we have a mess.
Orochi, the reason i ask is cause in case you didn't know ATT and Apple just announced (end of last week i think) that they will not let Google Voice work on Iphone or ATT plan. Competition and all that.
So not sure how you were planning on using it??
Also, melt that look lovely. Didn't expect to see a river so close to your house. Do you hear barges and stuff, ocassionally?
Also, beary, what can i say? At least you are gone and on to better things.?
rationalist, i'm totally with you. having experienced sexism in the workplace too, i think you are giving super valid advice, because it's one thing we can change as women [or girls, whatever]. we can be more assertive, we can ask for what we deserve. we can make sure there are no excuses and that we are doing everything on our part.
that said, strawbeary, this sucks big time and i'm sorry you're having to deal with it, i don't know if there is much else you can do. does your boss know you know how much your coworker makes? because i think you should make clear to them that you know you are doing more for less, and for no good reason.
HA. Squiggly line in the coner may be the wood composit border I used, or perhaps further down (up in the photo) is my neighbor's driveway. I do hear the trains though as the train yard is just down the hill. Used to hate hearing the squealing of the wheels at night but now I love it. Alas I'm am too far from the river to hear the barges, it's like 4 miles away.
might be attending my first planning meeting as a concerned citizen in the near future. walking down my street yesterday I noticed a sign attached to a parking lot fence. turns out they want to put a 40-unit building on the site and they're looking for a slew of variances. I'm doing my best to with hold judgment until after the meeting, but it seems like the required massing and elimination of side-yards won't jive with the neighborhood, which is composed of your typical 3 story/3 family apartments. I'm hoping the architects will prove me wrong, but I don't want to see anything happen to my dear Cambridgeport!
haha - just looked through the architect's website and noticed an ex-student on there.
hahahah
Melt, on closer inspection what i thought was a river (and dock) turned out to be the glare of your neighbor's house and driveway.
Re: the train i have lived by train lines for much of my life. Loved hearing the whistle etc.. Very soothing imho.
Pixel, it may sounds funny but our local public access channel broadcasts hours of various board and city meetings and I have found myself watching multuiple hours of planing-board meetings before.
Oh, the ATT/Google Voice thing is using your data plan to use Google Voice to make phone calls! Basically sidestepping your minutes plan and eating up bandwidth!
Other than that, Google Voice is like having a personal secretary.
My New York number rings my cell phone and my house phone... and any other possible phone I might add or have. And you can even set-up temporary forwards on it... say you're waiting on an important call and your phone's dead but not your friends. It takes like two seconds to set up a new line.
The other cool thing is you can set up free conference calls and you can record phone conversations. All recorded calls, numbers, everything else gets logged in a Gmail-esque type mailbox. You can even selectively block phone numbers!
Oh and you can dial from your Google number!
I'm just happy because I'm about to apply for a bunch of jobs in New York this week... and I'll have a new swank area code on my resume!
rationalist - you might be right, I didn't negotiate very well when I first started. Actually, they took my first offer, which probably wasn't enough. It is hard to work your way up when you start so low. Lesson learned, thanks for sharing your experiences.
As for self-employment, I have a couple of options I'm working on! I've started a surprisingly successful jewelry business. Nothing out of the box, just going for low hanging fruit thus far. Building it slowly as I believe the tortoise wins the race., but I imagine a future of jet-setting to Peru, Italy, and Thailand to purchase materials for jewelry.... YAY!
My other prospect will be explored in a few weeks when I meet with my dad. He is a farmer, needing to retire and he wants me to take over the family farm. My brother has no interest, so it is basically up to me. I have always fancied myself a farmer, but I know it is a lot of work. We'll see what he says. I would love to have an asparagus/raspberry/lavender or some other type of cutey boutique farm.
Maybe between these two prospects, I can still keep architecture as a hobby. Thinking about getting an MBA so I can really exercise my options and take either business to the next level. My life is WAY better outside of corporate america - I just don't belong there. Glad I am finding my way out. Amazing how exactly what wonderk said about persistence, diligence, and work ethic will get me farther than anything else. Big picture, big picture.
Pixel - they are trying to change the zoning in my neighborhood. I think it is good for us in the know to show up at those kind of meetings and ask the tough questions!
rationalist - referring to another professional as a "girl" diminishes her maturity - makes her seem like less of an adult. Even if you personally don't find the term offensive using it in a public forum legitimizes ingrained cultural sexism - i.e. that women are somehow less mature than men.
that's my beef with the term "girl" - nothing against you personally. IMO, sometimes we think that what we're saying is pretty innocuous, but language is very powerful - even the small things reinforce and reveal cultural/social identities, stereotypes, and subconscious prejudices.
steven my cat did not appreciate that clip. i tried to watch an episode of that show on hulu. everyone seems to like it. i watched about fifteen minutes of the first episode.(i think it was the first episode) it was about the main characters not knowing how to talk to a black guy who was in the chicks acting class? wtf? i stopped watching it. not funny. not smart. maybe i'll give it another chance sometime.
"even the small things reinforce and reveal cultural/social identities, stereotypes, and subconscious prejudices" - Toasteroven, I AGREE COMPLETELY. BUT sometimes, words are just words and used without all that load. Personally, I've gotten myself into a lot of bad situations from nitpicking at usage of specific words, although in retrospect there was always the possibility of the intention not being there. I've probably ruined a couple of relationships that way. I might've even done so here on archinect. (I should really be more aware of this myself)
As for the topic of unfair payment, I've experienced this as well but sexism was obviously not an issue (we were both guys). We had a new guy come in and it came up that he made more than me although I've been working there longer, had more experience, and had to actually train him and clean up his work. I usually don't care that much about money (why else would I go into architecture?), but it was demoralizing when you're training someone how to do things that makes more than you, and cleaning up his drawings/specs. Also in retrospect, there is also the huge possibility that the person that decides how much you get paid doesn't know whats going on in the firm, and that is also why you have to represent yourself better (Again, I should follow my own advice).
I agree that negotiating ability and firmness can be a huge factor, but I think something else that could be a big factor is timing. Someone that comes in when the firm is more stable or lucrative could make more, with less credentials. I've been the victim of poor timing in life, so naturally this found its way into my career.
considering that my current job is paying 1/2 of what I could/should have been making at another firm - there are times that you accept a low offer just to work and then end up keeping a job because you're cheaper then the better paid folks who get axed...
I've always wondered what to do in this situation :
You find out a coworker, who very obviously is less experienced & less productive than you (perhaps he/she isn't trusted to manage as large a project; perhaps you are routinely asked to train and/or clean up this coworker's work) makes quite a bit more money than you -- say at least $10,000. However, you find this out through office chit-chat. What do you do?
Do you bring it up to the boss? If so, how do you not make it seem like you're getting pissy over what my just be office gossip?
But if you don't bring it up to the boss, you run the risk of just being a pushover forever.
When this has happened to me, honestly I have simply started looking for other work, and in a sense that isn't the right thing to do either. It ignores all the time and effort you have put into building relationships at the firm (and besides, you may not WANT to leave) and it also denies the boss the chance to retain you, albeit with a raise.
This situation, however, is poisonous and makes it really hard to stay and continue working for the same wage. This is part of the reason it burns me up that this industry is so needlessly opaque (not only is opacity a huge source of workplace frustration, but it also concentrates all the power on the side of the employer and denies the employee any recourse).
i don't think it's just this industry, manta. my wife's company had similar issues - large public company, performing arts related, etc. with very weird pay discrepancies. among them that she learned that the person who worked directly under her made more money.
problem is that compensation is a privacy issue - it's not public knowledge and isn't meant to be unless the company chooses to make it public through a system of published hierarchical pay grade, etc.
the problem is in listening to rumors, not in the fact that there are differences in pay. as indicated earlier, differences in pay are negotiated and those negotiations are between employer and individual employee; other employees are not necessarily part of the consideration.
i believe in fairness, but transparency about pay is dicey territory. different pay is offered different people in different economic climates. once it's done, it sticks, usually. if a firm is to be competitive, it has to pay based on the market at a given time.
i hate these issues and try to avoid them. there appear to be built-in inequities no matter how you slice it. but i'm also not smart enough to have figured out a way to beat it.
here's the thing...with the way architecture is structured, the fact that most of us just want a job we tend to undercut our value. we go into an interview talk money and we are afraid to really say this is what i am worth this is what i need, because we just want to be employed so we can get on with the business of learning how to be an architect. and i really think that mindset sticks with us and i think that firms doing the hiring know this and if you say i need x they will give you x when they may have been perfectly willing to give you x+y on top of that. the more people they can get to take x rather than x+y means more vacations and bonuses and beach houses and audi tt graduation presents for their kids...ask for x+y next time, is all i'm saying...
ARGH!!!!!! we submitted a proposal 49 minutes too late on monday and so got rejected! elsewhere in the rfp, there was a reference to 2pm for the pre-proposal meeting at 2, while the front page clearly stated a noon deadline. damn, we had the 2pm as the deadline in our heads.
now I'm double checking the deadline for tomorrow.....
Strawbeary,
I have a friend who makes a living selling jewelry see makes as well as other boutique (knick-nackey type things, statues etc) She gets the raw material for the jewelry from India, Nepal, Thailand etc as well as the knick-nacks. She gets to travel it seems about 2-3 times a year..
Not a bad life but she isn't making tons. Enough to get by though. She sells alot of her goods at local farmer's/weekend markets.
I imagine that when combined with speciality farming (which you can't do year round unless you have a greenhouse type situation) one could make a decent living, but more importantly have a pretty enjoyable lifestyle...
As for pay issues/discrepancies. While sexism and other types of good old boy networks definetly effect compensation practices i think it is always best to keep you head down. Meaning unless you want to make a big stink (read: legally so) you are typically as Steven said not suppose to now that kind of information and it can lead to a lot of uncomfortable tensions etc between co-workers. That is why although i am always for transparency that is one area i tend to not get into with either co-workers, and even friends etc...
manta, I would probably bring it up in my annual review, but I would try to not actually say "I found out that so-and-so makes $$$$$." I would probably try saying something like "I feel that my salary should be brought more in line with my duties here. In the last year I have been in charge of such-and-such projects, and have wound up managing so-and-so as he gets up to speed on the way we do things here." hoping that the mention of the person would clue the manager in to what I was getting at. If it didn't work, I'm not sure whether or not I would say it more directly... would probably depend on a split second decision.
I'm pretty sure I'm underpaid and that's mainly because I didn't negotiate. Stupidly, I thought that because it was 6k more than I made before then it was a good deal. Should have seen how far I could push them.
My biggest issue is that at my very first job post graduation, I tried negotiating and it didn't work out so I've never tried it again. I think the experience made me believe I wasn't worth x-amount and that feeling is still haunting me. Getting my license has helped me hold my head a little higher though so whatever my next job is I'm asking for 15k over the published rates.
I think it's been talked about on here before, but a great thing to do in an interview is ask them how much they will offer, instead of you making the first offer. They're the ones offering the position, they should have an idea of what they're willing to spend, what the position is worth at their firm, and also what they think you might be worth. You should never have to make the first move in that negotiation -- they want you to work for them, they are making the offer, not you. I picked this up from a previous archinect discussion and have since seen it repeated in a bunch of non-architecture career books. I think it is very valuable. We have this feeling in our field that we are begging for a job or something, that the company is doing US a favor by hiring us. That is ignorance of the way business works & I feel, as vado suggested above, that it results in a pervasive culture of abuse and depressed wages in the field.
I always want it to work that way manta, but it never does. They ask how much I expect to make, I say that I'd prefer to hear how much they think my services are worth, and they flat out refuse. My tactic at entry-level was to ask for $2k more than I wanted to make, and as I advance at some point I'll start asking for $5k more. I advised a former significant other to use the $2k+ tactic, and he chickened out and asked for what he wanted... and got countered with $2k less than what he asked for. When I've used this tactic, the firm has agreed to my price with no negotiation. So I'll stick with it when forced to name a price.
Wow manta - I'm going to have to remember that the next time I'm in a negotiatiing situation. Makes perfect sense though, just like you said they want you to work for them and they are making the offer.
I'm addicted to etsy.com. I believed someone mentioned it earlier as a place to sell jewelry. I have purchased the majority of my holiday presents from etsy the past few years.
I yearn for an iPhone. It's funny because I am not a techy person whatsoever (just learned how to text, I don't know how to use the camera option on my mobile phone, hell - it's rarely on, etc.) but I totally think I need an iPhone. I don't. I know I don't but I still want one. It's probably for the best that I have Sprint and a family plan that won't let me break my contract too easily.
Steven - Is it still raining? cnn.com announced massive flash flood warnings in Kentucky yesterday and I thought of you.
indianapolis was pounded with rain yesterday it was up over the curbs and lots of trees were down. i listened to cracker's Another Song About The Rain about ten times. its a great song even when its not raining. i just thumbed through the latest issue of wired. Attention Brad Pitt is on the cover!!! when i look at that i see how far behind the technology curve i am. but i am just going to start calling everything a killer app...
for example,,,, Liberty Bell those sandals. Killer app, babe. Just killer.
Thread Central
AH HA HA that made me snort and tear up! I've never seen this show, but that random bit is great.
manta your mum is right about kids turning over on their own. on other hand my oldest daughter never crawled either. she went from rolling over and over across the room to walking. she was totally on own walkin round house by 9 months old. my youngest was happy to crawl though, and we raised them both the same as far as i can tell except in different countries...
i don't have an i-phone. i want all the kool software and the touch screen and the mp3 playing coolness of the machine but the hardware itself is not so great compared to the phone i have right now...when they come out with star trek flip version of i-phone i will probably get that...
wow seems TC has zoomed away when I was out in the air circling JFK. By far the biggest storm I've heard of in ages. Not a good time to be in the air, not a good time to be making a connecting flight.
So I'm in Cleveland, finally. And have been a busy bee since getting things ready for the missus birthday, culminating in dinner at Michael Symon (from Iron Chef, et al) restaurant Lola's. As well as editing an interview recently conducted with Michael Graves - thanks guys for your input (snarky or otherwise) all of it helped shaped the questions in one way or another.
@LB looking forward to seeing the new renderings, I've always felt that design-build returns architects to our Greek roots as masterbuilders not just facilitators as we often are relegated to.
@Midwest tc'ers I'll be most saddened that everyone will likely be meeting up when I'd of left, especially since I'm so close. Damn it
Blood pressure is boiling. Just hung out with an old co-worker. After a few beers, we found out he made 10k more than me. Same # years of experience, same type of degree. I wasn't technically his boss (we had the same title), but he treated me like I was and he told me he considered me his manager, he came to me for much of his work.
What is even more messed up is I had asked for a raise (coincidentally to exactly what this guy made) and my principal wanted to give it to me, told me I was definitely worth it. But he couldn't get it approved by the CFO. If only I had a penis! I really can't think of a reason to stay in this profession. Not a single one, I don't think my heart can take it.
That is incredibly infuriating Straw and incredibly unfair. Perhaps it's just my jaded self, but what makes you think this doesn't happen in any other industry?
melt, I guess I don't. I'm sure it does. My thoughts are that it won't happen if I am self-employed, which is my goal.
i vote golf...assuming you can afford the $400 green's fees to get on the elite courses.
http://www.svmlemag.fr/files/images/143910288908.jpg[/img]
on second though, you should juxt try video games instead. this is kprobably old news ot everybody here...but i just found out that some guy named billy mitchell scored a perfect scoreon pac man...and this happened like ten years ago. everything about this guy sounds perfect...even his trademark american flag tie
i wonder if he's ever posed in a banana hammock? that would be an interesting snapshot with that american tie
oh, and did anyone else notice that not only did that webiste feature underpants for hands (increadibly stupid idea because there are no pants for hands) but it also feature underpants for squirrels (maybe not a bad idea because squirrels live in the city and could probably calm dwn and behave in a more mature fashion if they wore pants and if we have to start somewhree then why not underpants for squirrels)....and even better yet offered a painting of a squirrel in underpants! available here at mcphee.com
word
totally marky mark.
and here's billy mitchell again
what happened to my maidenform ad????
strawbeary - that really sucks...
melt - it doesn't really happen with teaching in the public system (charters are a whole other story, though) - you get paid based on your education and years of experience. other government jobs are also pretty good about paying fair wages - that and unions.
i'd say being white, male, and married has helped me stay in jobs longer than I should have... once I have a kid, then I'm set - i can't get fired unless I totally f- things up.
I don't like to tread here... but I just got my Google Voice invitation.
Flying high with a Manhattan phone number now!
That's good to hear toaster, unfortunately I'm honestly not sure if that's the case in most cases. I would hope so, I've just heard stories from others that prove otherwise.
In other news... two photos I took today of my ongoing project to create an area of river pebble.
From my neighbor's yard
Still need to trim my river birch to open up the space.
orochi,
well that is pretty cool. Guess you don't have an iphone or ATT huh?
That looks lovely, melt!
Straw, I can't say anything about your salary situation, except a deep sigh of frustration.
I have ATT but I got this glorious number through Google Voice!
It's a 347 area code but the routing number is suppose to be in lower manhattan.
And it's got my nickname in it!
*m wow! That's an amazing little landscape area - I can imagine sipping mojitos under the trees. I'm getting ahead of myself - go finish the work. Go build a bench from fallen trees and large boulders
strawbeary, that does suck. I will only offer that it isn't necessarily sexism, but that your negotiating skills/willingness to take a chance at the initial hiring stage play a bigger role than anything. At my last arch firm, a girl who got hired several months before me, who had a masters from an ivy league school (that was our boss's alma mater no less), was making far less than I was. Why? Because when they asked what I wanted to be making I was willing to look the interviewer in the eye and aim high, whereas she being a more timid personality was cowed into a lower number by the intimidation of having to name it aloud. When they were trying to replace me, I overheard the interview of my eventual replacement, and when they asked him he named a figure that was $3k less than I started at more than two years before. Do you think they tossed more money at him in the name of fairness? Hell no, he came in to do the same job as me making less money, and it had nothing to do with sex. I'm not saying that sex could not have played some part in your situation, but I'd encourage you to think about the other factors that could have been involved first.
[/i]master of karate, and friendship…for everyone![/i]
melt that looks awesome. Trying to figure out what the light-colored area wayyy down below your property is (in the corner of the second photo). A river of some sort?
Strawbeary... that makes my stomach ache. I have a very similar story I could tell you, that I know of for SURE, and have often had similar suspicions along the way as well. It just... makes my heart hurt. So aggravating. And toaster is right -- there is an insane prejudice towards married folk in this biz. I feel sorry for the homosexual / transgendered / anyone who doesn't fit in that box... I'm sure they're even worse off.
I don't even want to tell my story because it would make you break your computer in a fit of rage. Or it would make me do that. Ugh. Best not to dwell on these things.
I, too, want to be self-employed... but then I saw how much health insurance costs for the self-employed, over on the health insurance thread. Eek.
Rationalist- it is "woman" not "girl". I know you're well meaning, but having worked for two separate firms where principals would make female employees "fetch coffee" and do interiors regardless of education or experience, I can assure you that sexism is alive and well in our profession.
my mother's union sued her employer about 20 years ago for back pay to cover the salary disparity between her and her male counterparts. she had worked for like 20 years or so at a lower rate simply for being female. i don't remember how much she was paid back. doubt it covered the actual difference, but still...
sexism is def built into japanese archi-system. shame really.
toasteroven--ok, if you insist. If she said "The girl who worked next to me made way more than I did!" I wouldn't be offended, but if we're going to get picky about terminology, whatever. We were both quite young though. And I'm not saying that sexism doesn't exist, just that I believe that salary discrepancies more commonly originate from the silence surrounding pay and the uncertainty of candidates about what to ask for.
Strawbeary that makes me feel sick too. Serendipity works in mysterious ways though. On the same day that I found out I hadn't gotten a bonus at my first job out of college, over 5 years ago now, I also ran into an old grade school friend who worked at an architecture firm and - voila! I moved on to a new job less than a month later. And the bastardo who cheated me out of my bonus, who treated me like I didn't exist because he didn't know how to treat women, well, he got himself fired 6 months later for incompetence. Karma's a b*tch! Your persistence, diligence, and work ethic will pay many dividends to you in the long run. (Sorry, I know I've told that story a million times. Did I mention that I was in costume on the day this happened? That makes it better.)
So, that clip from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia was hilarious!
I went on a bike ride today and took a pretty nasty spill. Fortunately I didn't go over my front handlebars, but I did end up on my side in a ditch. My left knee took the brunt of it...and it looks totally gnarly now. Ha. Battle scars.
the other day i was out driving on a rather busy street and this is what i saw before me. turning onto the street from a sidestreet was a truck. not a semi but a large delivery type truck and on the sidewalk was this guy who was on a bike. he wasn't riding he was either beginning or stopping, he had his feet on the pedals. well he started teetering and fell over off the curb and lay sprawled out in the street. fortunately the truck, having just turned onto the street, was travelling at a low rate of speed. because it was right there when this guy fell. a second later or a few miles an hour faster on the trucks part and we have a mess.
despite the fact that i'm not fond of cats and should enjoy their discomfort, i didn't even get a chuckle out of that clip. something's wrong with me.
Morning all,
Orochi, the reason i ask is cause in case you didn't know ATT and Apple just announced (end of last week i think) that they will not let Google Voice work on Iphone or ATT plan. Competition and all that.
So not sure how you were planning on using it??
Also, melt that look lovely. Didn't expect to see a river so close to your house. Do you hear barges and stuff, ocassionally?
Also, beary, what can i say? At least you are gone and on to better things.?
rationalist, i'm totally with you. having experienced sexism in the workplace too, i think you are giving super valid advice, because it's one thing we can change as women [or girls, whatever]. we can be more assertive, we can ask for what we deserve. we can make sure there are no excuses and that we are doing everything on our part.
that said, strawbeary, this sucks big time and i'm sorry you're having to deal with it, i don't know if there is much else you can do. does your boss know you know how much your coworker makes? because i think you should make clear to them that you know you are doing more for less, and for no good reason.
HA. Squiggly line in the coner may be the wood composit border I used, or perhaps further down (up in the photo) is my neighbor's driveway. I do hear the trains though as the train yard is just down the hill. Used to hate hearing the squealing of the wheels at night but now I love it. Alas I'm am too far from the river to hear the barges, it's like 4 miles away.
might be attending my first planning meeting as a concerned citizen in the near future. walking down my street yesterday I noticed a sign attached to a parking lot fence. turns out they want to put a 40-unit building on the site and they're looking for a slew of variances. I'm doing my best to with hold judgment until after the meeting, but it seems like the required massing and elimination of side-yards won't jive with the neighborhood, which is composed of your typical 3 story/3 family apartments. I'm hoping the architects will prove me wrong, but I don't want to see anything happen to my dear Cambridgeport!
haha - just looked through the architect's website and noticed an ex-student on there.
hahahah
Melt, on closer inspection what i thought was a river (and dock) turned out to be the glare of your neighbor's house and driveway.
Re: the train i have lived by train lines for much of my life. Loved hearing the whistle etc.. Very soothing imho.
Pixel, it may sounds funny but our local public access channel broadcasts hours of various board and city meetings and I have found myself watching multuiple hours of planing-board meetings before.
Oh, the ATT/Google Voice thing is using your data plan to use Google Voice to make phone calls! Basically sidestepping your minutes plan and eating up bandwidth!
Other than that, Google Voice is like having a personal secretary.
My New York number rings my cell phone and my house phone... and any other possible phone I might add or have. And you can even set-up temporary forwards on it... say you're waiting on an important call and your phone's dead but not your friends. It takes like two seconds to set up a new line.
The other cool thing is you can set up free conference calls and you can record phone conversations. All recorded calls, numbers, everything else gets logged in a Gmail-esque type mailbox. You can even selectively block phone numbers!
Oh and you can dial from your Google number!
I'm just happy because I'm about to apply for a bunch of jobs in New York this week... and I'll have a new swank area code on my resume!
rationalist - you might be right, I didn't negotiate very well when I first started. Actually, they took my first offer, which probably wasn't enough. It is hard to work your way up when you start so low. Lesson learned, thanks for sharing your experiences.
As for self-employment, I have a couple of options I'm working on! I've started a surprisingly successful jewelry business. Nothing out of the box, just going for low hanging fruit thus far. Building it slowly as I believe the tortoise wins the race., but I imagine a future of jet-setting to Peru, Italy, and Thailand to purchase materials for jewelry.... YAY!
My other prospect will be explored in a few weeks when I meet with my dad. He is a farmer, needing to retire and he wants me to take over the family farm. My brother has no interest, so it is basically up to me. I have always fancied myself a farmer, but I know it is a lot of work. We'll see what he says. I would love to have an asparagus/raspberry/lavender or some other type of cutey boutique farm.
Maybe between these two prospects, I can still keep architecture as a hobby. Thinking about getting an MBA so I can really exercise my options and take either business to the next level. My life is WAY better outside of corporate america - I just don't belong there. Glad I am finding my way out. Amazing how exactly what wonderk said about persistence, diligence, and work ethic will get me farther than anything else. Big picture, big picture.
Pixel - they are trying to change the zoning in my neighborhood. I think it is good for us in the know to show up at those kind of meetings and ask the tough questions!
rationalist - referring to another professional as a "girl" diminishes her maturity - makes her seem like less of an adult. Even if you personally don't find the term offensive using it in a public forum legitimizes ingrained cultural sexism - i.e. that women are somehow less mature than men.
that's my beef with the term "girl" - nothing against you personally. IMO, sometimes we think that what we're saying is pretty innocuous, but language is very powerful - even the small things reinforce and reveal cultural/social identities, stereotypes, and subconscious prejudices.
steven my cat did not appreciate that clip. i tried to watch an episode of that show on hulu. everyone seems to like it. i watched about fifteen minutes of the first episode.(i think it was the first episode) it was about the main characters not knowing how to talk to a black guy who was in the chicks acting class? wtf? i stopped watching it. not funny. not smart. maybe i'll give it another chance sometime.
"even the small things reinforce and reveal cultural/social identities, stereotypes, and subconscious prejudices" - Toasteroven, I AGREE COMPLETELY. BUT sometimes, words are just words and used without all that load. Personally, I've gotten myself into a lot of bad situations from nitpicking at usage of specific words, although in retrospect there was always the possibility of the intention not being there. I've probably ruined a couple of relationships that way. I might've even done so here on archinect. (I should really be more aware of this myself)
As for the topic of unfair payment, I've experienced this as well but sexism was obviously not an issue (we were both guys). We had a new guy come in and it came up that he made more than me although I've been working there longer, had more experience, and had to actually train him and clean up his work. I usually don't care that much about money (why else would I go into architecture?), but it was demoralizing when you're training someone how to do things that makes more than you, and cleaning up his drawings/specs. Also in retrospect, there is also the huge possibility that the person that decides how much you get paid doesn't know whats going on in the firm, and that is also why you have to represent yourself better (Again, I should follow my own advice).
I agree that negotiating ability and firmness can be a huge factor, but I think something else that could be a big factor is timing. Someone that comes in when the firm is more stable or lucrative could make more, with less credentials. I've been the victim of poor timing in life, so naturally this found its way into my career.
considering that my current job is paying 1/2 of what I could/should have been making at another firm - there are times that you accept a low offer just to work and then end up keeping a job because you're cheaper then the better paid folks who get axed...
I've always wondered what to do in this situation :
You find out a coworker, who very obviously is less experienced & less productive than you (perhaps he/she isn't trusted to manage as large a project; perhaps you are routinely asked to train and/or clean up this coworker's work) makes quite a bit more money than you -- say at least $10,000. However, you find this out through office chit-chat. What do you do?
Do you bring it up to the boss? If so, how do you not make it seem like you're getting pissy over what my just be office gossip?
But if you don't bring it up to the boss, you run the risk of just being a pushover forever.
When this has happened to me, honestly I have simply started looking for other work, and in a sense that isn't the right thing to do either. It ignores all the time and effort you have put into building relationships at the firm (and besides, you may not WANT to leave) and it also denies the boss the chance to retain you, albeit with a raise.
This situation, however, is poisonous and makes it really hard to stay and continue working for the same wage. This is part of the reason it burns me up that this industry is so needlessly opaque (not only is opacity a huge source of workplace frustration, but it also concentrates all the power on the side of the employer and denies the employee any recourse).
i don't think it's just this industry, manta. my wife's company had similar issues - large public company, performing arts related, etc. with very weird pay discrepancies. among them that she learned that the person who worked directly under her made more money.
problem is that compensation is a privacy issue - it's not public knowledge and isn't meant to be unless the company chooses to make it public through a system of published hierarchical pay grade, etc.
the problem is in listening to rumors, not in the fact that there are differences in pay. as indicated earlier, differences in pay are negotiated and those negotiations are between employer and individual employee; other employees are not necessarily part of the consideration.
i believe in fairness, but transparency about pay is dicey territory. different pay is offered different people in different economic climates. once it's done, it sticks, usually. if a firm is to be competitive, it has to pay based on the market at a given time.
i hate these issues and try to avoid them. there appear to be built-in inequities no matter how you slice it. but i'm also not smart enough to have figured out a way to beat it.
here's the thing...with the way architecture is structured, the fact that most of us just want a job we tend to undercut our value. we go into an interview talk money and we are afraid to really say this is what i am worth this is what i need, because we just want to be employed so we can get on with the business of learning how to be an architect. and i really think that mindset sticks with us and i think that firms doing the hiring know this and if you say i need x they will give you x when they may have been perfectly willing to give you x+y on top of that. the more people they can get to take x rather than x+y means more vacations and bonuses and beach houses and audi tt graduation presents for their kids...ask for x+y next time, is all i'm saying...
and this applies to men and women...
ARGH!!!!!! we submitted a proposal 49 minutes too late on monday and so got rejected! elsewhere in the rfp, there was a reference to 2pm for the pre-proposal meeting at 2, while the front page clearly stated a noon deadline. damn, we had the 2pm as the deadline in our heads.
now I'm double checking the deadline for tomorrow.....
Strawbeary,
I have a friend who makes a living selling jewelry see makes as well as other boutique (knick-nackey type things, statues etc) She gets the raw material for the jewelry from India, Nepal, Thailand etc as well as the knick-nacks. She gets to travel it seems about 2-3 times a year..
Not a bad life but she isn't making tons. Enough to get by though. She sells alot of her goods at local farmer's/weekend markets.
I imagine that when combined with speciality farming (which you can't do year round unless you have a greenhouse type situation) one could make a decent living, but more importantly have a pretty enjoyable lifestyle...
As for pay issues/discrepancies. While sexism and other types of good old boy networks definetly effect compensation practices i think it is always best to keep you head down. Meaning unless you want to make a big stink (read: legally so) you are typically as Steven said not suppose to now that kind of information and it can lead to a lot of uncomfortable tensions etc between co-workers. That is why although i am always for transparency that is one area i tend to not get into with either co-workers, and even friends etc...
manta, I would probably bring it up in my annual review, but I would try to not actually say "I found out that so-and-so makes $$$$$." I would probably try saying something like "I feel that my salary should be brought more in line with my duties here. In the last year I have been in charge of such-and-such projects, and have wound up managing so-and-so as he gets up to speed on the way we do things here." hoping that the mention of the person would clue the manager in to what I was getting at. If it didn't work, I'm not sure whether or not I would say it more directly... would probably depend on a split second decision.
oh and Strawbeary, do you have an etsy site? If so I'd love to know what it is so I can visit.
I'm pretty sure I'm underpaid and that's mainly because I didn't negotiate. Stupidly, I thought that because it was 6k more than I made before then it was a good deal. Should have seen how far I could push them.
My biggest issue is that at my very first job post graduation, I tried negotiating and it didn't work out so I've never tried it again. I think the experience made me believe I wasn't worth x-amount and that feeling is still haunting me. Getting my license has helped me hold my head a little higher though so whatever my next job is I'm asking for 15k over the published rates.
I gotta start bragging about my own awesomeness.
I think it's been talked about on here before, but a great thing to do in an interview is ask them how much they will offer, instead of you making the first offer. They're the ones offering the position, they should have an idea of what they're willing to spend, what the position is worth at their firm, and also what they think you might be worth. You should never have to make the first move in that negotiation -- they want you to work for them, they are making the offer, not you. I picked this up from a previous archinect discussion and have since seen it repeated in a bunch of non-architecture career books. I think it is very valuable. We have this feeling in our field that we are begging for a job or something, that the company is doing US a favor by hiring us. That is ignorance of the way business works & I feel, as vado suggested above, that it results in a pervasive culture of abuse and depressed wages in the field.
I always want it to work that way manta, but it never does. They ask how much I expect to make, I say that I'd prefer to hear how much they think my services are worth, and they flat out refuse. My tactic at entry-level was to ask for $2k more than I wanted to make, and as I advance at some point I'll start asking for $5k more. I advised a former significant other to use the $2k+ tactic, and he chickened out and asked for what he wanted... and got countered with $2k less than what he asked for. When I've used this tactic, the firm has agreed to my price with no negotiation. So I'll stick with it when forced to name a price.
Wow manta - I'm going to have to remember that the next time I'm in a negotiatiing situation. Makes perfect sense though, just like you said they want you to work for them and they are making the offer.
I enjoyed that NYT article.
Hi all!
Congrats, LB on the project!
I like the your project, *m.
I'm addicted to etsy.com. I believed someone mentioned it earlier as a place to sell jewelry. I have purchased the majority of my holiday presents from etsy the past few years.
I yearn for an iPhone. It's funny because I am not a techy person whatsoever (just learned how to text, I don't know how to use the camera option on my mobile phone, hell - it's rarely on, etc.) but I totally think I need an iPhone. I don't. I know I don't but I still want one. It's probably for the best that I have Sprint and a family plan that won't let me break my contract too easily.
Steven - Is it still raining? cnn.com announced massive flash flood warnings in Kentucky yesterday and I thought of you.
indianapolis was pounded with rain yesterday it was up over the curbs and lots of trees were down. i listened to cracker's Another Song About The Rain about ten times. its a great song even when its not raining. i just thumbed through the latest issue of wired. Attention Brad Pitt is on the cover!!! when i look at that i see how far behind the technology curve i am. but i am just going to start calling everything a killer app...
for example,,,, Liberty Bell those sandals. Killer app, babe. Just killer.
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