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CPBD exam specifications under review by NCBDC.

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no_form
Where did Dick go? My guess is that Balskins is either worried about getting reported for that theater project or is out measuring a rectangular shaped type V structure with his theodolite and drone swarm. Last possibility is that he is getting his ass kicked by Mama Fratelli's pet kangaroo. My vote is on Mama Fratelli's kangaroo.
Apr 28, 16 7:59 pm  · 
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Rick you just admitted above that you designed a poorer solution for this theater than you could have, in part because you knew that if you considered an addition you'd exceed the square footage limit of an "exempt" building and get in trouble for practicing architecture without a license.

Hold on there for a second. You do realize they didn't have the money for an addition at that point. Nothing I have done prohibits an addition. First off, it makes no sense to shove down a clients throat a design solution they can not afford it.

They wanted a theater to function, FIRST. 

Seconds, additions can always be made. 

What would you propose? They close their doors?

If they did not open with a function theater by July, they would be closed forever. 

Third, the building code does NOT require a vestibule. It is not a four story building for one. The theater room is under 3000 sq.ft. interior dimensions. Exterior dimensions was just at the approx. 3000 sq.ft. mark. It's sprinklered. The back stage is in a 22x44 additions that was done in the 1980s. It was ~968 sq.ft. There's an existing CMU wall between the 22'x44' addition and the main theater room with only a door way between it and the stage. That' addition's floor is concrete slab. The floor of the main theater is concrete slab. The walls are CMU. The thing you have to worry about in terms of fire is the trusses burning aside from the stage and maybe the addition. There's a greater chance the exisitng 1980s addition would burn because of ambers at the roof before any chance of fire burning then it would be through the CMU wall.

However, sprinklers were installed.

The back stage (which includes the dressing rooms and all) has a CMU wall separation. The floor is reinforced concrete slab with both rebar and welded wire mesh. On the existing addition the roof structure was frames in an idiotic way. I suggested that be re-framed or otherwise a new roof structure built up over this existing roof framing so as to reverse the slope so water sheds away from the CMU wall. Otherwise it will be an ongoing maintenance issue and can become a worse situation. They didn't have the budget for it. 

We talked about an addition. Budget is the prevailing factor. They have to stay operational if they are going to build an addition or any other work. This is a non-profit organization. 

Basically they had maybe 10% of what they needed to begin with and they had only been given a short notice from my understanding about having to relocate from the place they were leasing or renting or whatever to a place that would be the permanent place. There is only so many grants that would cover a project like this. 

Apr 28, 16 8:06 pm  · 
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no_form
I've got an idea. Let's call up the building department in Astoria and see what they say. Make it hypothetical though as it would not be cool to bankrupt the theater.
Apr 28, 16 8:30 pm  · 
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DeTwan

How in God's name did this become a 4 page thread? Oh yes, The Balkinator destroys all!!!

And then The All Mighty Lord & master Internet Trolls does this to his victims.... and Im like........ I've removed my shades in pure shock of what I've witnessed, and I become very pale blk man?!

Apr 28, 16 8:37 pm  · 
 · 

Also when questioned about the decking he keeps repeating his joist spacing and the deflection rating of his OSB - but stages have high concentrated point load requirements that are usually the determining factor for thickness, not the deflection rating. Even if 1000 architects turned down the project it doesn't make it ok for you to take it on if you don't know how to do it.

 

What's the live load capacity of 2x8 with a span of 5'-0" ? (Actually, the span is slightly less on the platform/stage.

 

The OSB used are 23/32.

As the uniform load for the sheathing has allowable strength of over 400 psf.

http://www.woodbywy.com/document/osb-4000/

 

The load requirement for stage & platforms are uniformally distributed live load of 125 psf. The joists are not going to buckle because under the load requirements. The code does not designate any concentrated load.

The 2x8 are Douglas Fir #1 or Better grade. Even if #2 was used, at 100# live load plus 20 psf dead load with L/360 deflection limit, the allowable span is 8'-3" according to AWC's Maximum Span calculator for Wood Joists and Rafters. I've manually calculated the section area requirements for the tributary load for the joists. I calculated the load and span.

The code requirements for Platforms and stages are 125 psf uniform distributed live load. The code requirements from an old UBC requirement was 150 psf. Concentrated load as indicated in Section 1607.4 of the OSSC (2007 edition as that was what was the applicable code edition), it says: 

1607.4 Concentrated loads. Floors and other surfaces shall be designed to support the uniformly distributed live loads prescribed in Section 1607.3 or the concentrated load, in pounds (kilonewtons), given in Table 1607.1, whichever produces the greater load effects. Unless otherwise specified, the indicated concentration shall be assumed to be uniformly distributed over an area 2.5 feet by 2.5 feet [6.25 square feet (0.58 m^2)] and shall be located as to produce the maximum load effects on the structural members. 

There is also a provision in 1607.9 called Reduction of live load which you have two options 1607.9.1 or 1607.9.2 using the formula: R=0.08(A-150) ---- do the math... R= 0.08(760-150) which is R = 0.08(610) 48.8. Work around the equation of 60% of the 125 psf and you are looking at 75psf. Lets assume we aren't reducing live load below 100 psf for assembly use. I chose to design and calc to maximum live load requirement. 

Even if you loaded 600# person and distribute that load over a 6.25 sq.ft. area per the Concentrated Load requirements. That's at 96psf with l/360 condition being met. When you are talking about people dancing on the stage, a stomp here and there, those are considered impact loads. Live load requirements already has an allowance for momentary impact loads and vibration per Section 1607.8. I specified the joist size and span to exceed the requirements of 125 psf and the old requirements of the UBC of 150 psf live load. 23/32" OSB has a live load allowance of _____________?

Look at the example problem on page 5 of the PDF here: http://www.woodbywy.com/document/osb-4000/

They are calling for joists on the same specification guideline. (joists at 16" o.c.). Even on Uniform load based on Shear capacity is 345 psf. That's over 2.5x live load. Based on deflection, it's 491 psf. That's almost 4x the uniform live load of 125 psf requirement. 

2x8 with a span of just under 5-ft. of Douglas Fir #2 or better will support 125 psf live load and meet l/360 deflection. I specified #1 and better. Lowest grade is #1 grade. I calculated at a lower grade than I specified. 

For a platform without using drywall underneath it like floor not using drywall or plaster or any finish material underneath.... such as a deck.... what's the accepted deflection guidelines for a deck? What is it? l/180?

Any more stronger, it might as well be made of reinforced concrete.

Apr 28, 16 8:38 pm  · 
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no_form
Hey Balkins you ever seen a kangaroo drop a concentrated floor load? Puts life in perspective quick.
Apr 28, 16 8:45 pm  · 
 · 

I've got an idea. Let's call up the building department in Astoria and see what they say. Make it hypothetical though as it would not be cool to bankrupt the theater.

They will have to make an addition at some point. They need to move from a temporary solution of portable restrooms to having some more permanent restroom. 

When I started this project, it was clear that we need to get the theater functioning their first with portable restrooms. It was also stated, for an addition to be made, they are going to need an architect as that would clearly go over 4000 sq.ft. Would it be nice to have the addition? yes. 

I could have designed it but I would have a $5000 fine by OBAE for doing it. Unless I am being paid $10,000, it wouldn't make any sense would it? It makes no sense probably in the first place.

It does concern me that they haven't done it yet.

Apr 28, 16 8:45 pm  · 
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x-jla

Wait a minute now, you mean to tell me that the Goonies didn't share the loot with the community theater of Astoria?  I'm giving Cory Feldman a call! 

Apr 28, 16 8:46 pm  · 
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x-jla

Oh, so there no restroom!  Perfect!  The Kangaroos prefer to shit on the floor anyway!

Apr 28, 16 8:49 pm  · 
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I'm sure people are just giving me a hard time.

Apr 28, 16 8:51 pm  · 
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no_form
Balkins, this theater project was beyond your capabilities. You should have referred them to an architect who could have helped them secure more funding, do the addition, include permanent restrooms. You basically screwed these people because YOU were not qualified to provide the level of expertise they required. I hope a legally imported kangaroo busts down your door tonight and drops a hot one in your bed.
Apr 28, 16 8:56 pm  · 
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no_form,

They have had an architect already design an addition? They haven't even begun construction of it. I had been by the site recently.

Apr 28, 16 9:07 pm  · 
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no_form
Way to excuse yourself. But good for them. Hope a kangaroo still poops in your bed.
Apr 28, 16 9:11 pm  · 
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eeayeeayo

Balkins, IBC considers the area of the stage to include all backstage areas that are not fire separated.  From what you're describing you do not have a UL numbered fire separation in all planes (floor, walls including exterior walls for 5 feet perpendicular to the CMU interior wall in both directions, roof) between the stage platform and the backstage areas.  Your stage (including backstage areas) exceeds 1000 sf - so do you have the code-compliant smoke control system to maintain a smoke layer not less than 6 feet above the seating level?  How is that achieved without vestibules? Do you have at least two fusible link and manually operated heat-activated roof vents located above the highest point of the state, having a combined area of at least 5% of the stage area (including backstage spaces)?  Standpipes on both sides of stage? Is the space under the stage sprinklered? Separated by 5/8" gyp bd?

Apr 28, 16 9:29 pm  · 
 · 

Whom am I going to refer to?

First off, they don't teach grant writing in 90% of the architecture schools. 90% of the architects don't know how to do grant writing. They just don't teach it or tell people where to find it. You had to been registered as an Architect in Oregon before I would have referred you.

MOST of the money secured for the project was grant money as well as fundraising campaign.  I'd say 80% of the money secured for the project in the first place was grant money. 

If the addition was done at the same time as the rest of the remodel, if for any reason that the addition takes longer than rest of the theater... it would delay certificate of occupancy and opening the theater.  

The organization only had the one theater program "Shanghaied in Astoria". It was only open for 3 months of the year during the summer. mid-July through mid-October. That was where all the money comes in from. If that addition isn't built on time, ASOC is bankrupt. When you are largely depending on volunteer labor to actually get the work done, I'm going to say this, we would have missed the opening mark if we did the addition at the same time.

Part of opening the theater is so they can add more programs year round. It has. 

Apr 28, 16 9:39 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur
How would you know what they teach in architecture schools when you've never attended richardismo balkarino?
Apr 28, 16 10:33 pm  · 
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eeayeeayo,

Lets not forget that Astoria adopted the 2006 Edition of IEBC. 

Apr 28, 16 10:44 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur,

Lets see,  I look at the course descriptions of classes offered at the schools. I look at what the courses are. I look at the syllabus of the courses offered. 

You know.... public information.
 

Apr 28, 16 10:46 pm  · 
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Balkins, do your parents believe your stories or do they just smile and nod like kangaroos?

Kangaroo Jack was a very underrated film. The theater should turn it into a masterpiece.
Apr 28, 16 10:50 pm  · 
 · 
awaiting_deletion

the bot has become a teenager.  waiting for melt down now.

Apr 28, 16 10:53 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

yeah, you've not done any such research Ricordion Balkira, but really, I'm not surprised.

Besides the obvious I list above, anyone else find the image below enticing?

How ya doing?

Apr 28, 16 10:57 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

Also, this:

Apr 28, 16 10:59 pm  · 
 · 
eeayeeayo

Balkins, let's not forget that Oregon also adopted NFPA 101.

Apr 28, 16 11:11 pm  · 
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eeayeeayo

This really isn't funny anymore.  The more you say about this theater the more I think people are going to die there.  

Apr 28, 16 11:13 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur,

I'm not talking about a grant writing course that are required courses. Most architects never taken any grant writing. It isn't part of architectural design services. It's part of another profession or occupation to be a grant writer.

You are either a full-time grant writer or you are a full-time architect. You need to be a full-time grant writers to be any good and keep up with what what grants are available and what grants are no longer available.

Apr 28, 16 11:19 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

.


 

Apr 28, 16 11:28 pm  · 
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Rick, instead of going off on tangents why don't you tell us why you provided services that you were vastly unqualified for and in the process put the healthy, safety, and welfare of the people who attend the theater in jeopardy?

The kangaroos are doing the safety dance cause if don't dance (and adequately protect the HSW of the public) you ain't no friend of mine.
Apr 28, 16 11:33 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

16 "Archer" Quotes For People Who Hate People

Besides reminding you that you know shit about architecture or the teaching of it, how do you define grant-writing anyways? Grant would make a fine kangaroo name.

Apr 28, 16 11:34 pm  · 
 · 
nicholass817

Well...first thing tomorrow I'm going to tell my boss that we can no longer be involved in assisting our clients in aquisition of funds for their projects...we can't do both!!! Rickaroo says we can only do architecture full time...

You really haven't a clue. 

Apr 28, 16 11:40 pm  · 
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Kangaroos are really really weird. They use their tail like a leg?! That dramatic one is awfully cute, though.

Apr 28, 16 11:41 pm  · 
 · 
Imagine if kangaroos were packin' like the tapir.
Apr 28, 16 11:46 pm  · 
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eeayeeayo

Donna you would use your tail like a third leg too if your tail was that long.  I can send my drones to scan you and then I'll print you a tail extension on my 3D printer.  First I have to see whether tails are exempt from requiring a licensed appendage designer, so I'll need to know where you live.

Apr 28, 16 11:51 pm  · 
 · 

In Oregon, NFPA 101 applies to hospitals. For other buildings, the other codes are applied to. I looked to see who and what laws or rules that it is adopted under. Only reference is to Health Care facilities.

Apr 28, 16 11:56 pm  · 
 · 

Josh Mings,

Rick, instead of going off on tangents why don't you tell us why you provided services that you were vastly unqualified for and in the process put the healthy, safety, and welfare of the people who attend the theater in jeopardy?

 

First off, people are just throwing all sorts of codes like NFPA 101. It applies to Special Healthcare Facilities. 

I spent all day answering these. How about apply the correct codes for existing buildings instead of codes that applies to special health care facilities, for example.

Apr 29, 16 12:07 am  · 
 · 
awaiting_deletion

Nope. and do you know how codes even work? 

do you know what a code is?

do you know how codes are adopted and how referenced material is adopted into become part of code?

fuckin' clueless!

back to Kangeroos

Apr 29, 16 12:12 am  · 
 · 
eeayeeayo

Ok - IFC-based Oregon Fire Code then.  It has the same minimum requirements, same language, in the same chapters.  Different initials.  

Look Rick, your theater is a fire trap.

Apr 29, 16 12:13 am  · 
 · 
Well, at least he spelled my name right this time.

What kind of codes are required for kangaroo wrestling, Rick?
Apr 29, 16 12:17 am  · 
 · 
awaiting_deletion

even if you followed code but you made a death trap, it's on you.

it's like not paying your taxes because you didn't know you were supposed to.

ignorance isn't an excuse.

and generally Rick, based on your Bot like non-understanding, even if you copy pasted every legal document you found on the web it is clear to me, you do NOT comprehend.


 

Apr 29, 16 12:19 am  · 
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eeayeeayo

Your city's code specifically states that where there are conflicts between the city's code and the state's code (IBC with amendments), the more stringent applies. So again:  your state code states that IBC applies when there is a change of use, and IBC considers the area of the stage to include all backstage areas that are not fire separated.  From what you're describing you do not have a UL numbered fire separation in all planes (floor, walls including exterior walls for 5 feet perpendicular to the CMU interior wall in both directions, roof) between the stage platform and the backstage areas.  Your stage (including backstage areas) exceeds 1000 sf - so do you have the code-compliant smoke control system to maintain a smoke layer not less than 6 feet above the seating level?  How is that achieved without vestibules? Do you have at least two fusible link and manually operated heat-activated roof vents located above the highest point of the state, having a combined area of at least 5% of the stage area (including backstage spaces)?  Standpipes on both sides of stage? Is the space under the stage sprinklered? Separated by 5/8" gyp bd?

Apr 29, 16 12:19 am  · 
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awaiting_deletion

Kangaroo Court decides such things Mr. Mings.

Apr 29, 16 12:21 am  · 
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no_form
Lol to all of this. Seriously I step away for dinner and come back to this comedy show. If only this was performed live by Astoria community theater with live kangaroos.

Hey Balkins when eeay mentioned NFPA 101 I think he meant as in "101" level course. ie: basic knowledge. You're more dense than the thigh of a kangaroo.

Hopefully when your death trap sparks fire the kangaroos will grab the humans around them and leap to safety.

Anyone remember 'Roos sneakers? You could stuff your lunch money in it.
Apr 29, 16 12:50 am  · 
 · 
You know what was awesome? Dunkaroos. If you had those in your lunchbox, you were the top Kangaroos, the head Joey on campus, the roo s**t.
Apr 29, 16 12:52 am  · 
 · 
no_form
Lol. Nice one Mings. Those were a great lunch box treat.
Apr 29, 16 12:58 am  · 
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nicholass817

Dude!!! Look up the difference between NFPA 99 and 101...screw it...don't even bother.  Stop designing projects before you kill someone.  

Apr 29, 16 1:01 am  · 
 · 
x-jla

I would really like to write a play for the Astoria theater.  It's called "Rick".  Simple but catchy! It's about a guy named Rick (played by Steve Buschemi) who gets into a terrible accident while measuring a roof with a theodolite.  Both of his legs are amputated and he suffers from a severe case of erectile dysfunction.  Luckily, A mad scientist working in a dingy Astoria Basement (played by Lou diamond Philips) convinces Rick to let him transplant kangaroo legs from "Grant" a dead kangaroo who was killed after drowning in an exempt negative edge pool.  The operation is a success, and Rick goes on to do great things like rewrite the test for the AIBD, report architects for failing to renew their license, and of course jump really really fucking high!

Apr 29, 16 1:06 am  · 
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no_form

i have nothing to add now but this.  (hopefully image comes through)

 

Apr 29, 16 1:11 am  · 
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no_form

jla-x buschemi is an excellent choice but rick doesn't deserve it.  i'd also recommend jeff goldblum for that know it all bot attitude ricky has.  

Apr 29, 16 1:14 am  · 
 · 
z1111

River Dance with kangaroos at the Astoria Theater.

Apr 29, 16 1:18 am  · 
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x-jla

Jeff Goldblum would be great for the part.  Dwight from the office would be a good choice too. 

Apr 29, 16 1:22 am  · 
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eeayeeayo,

What do you think the fire rating of CMU is. Fire separation relates to fire rating? Riight? Is it 1-hr? 2-hr? 

The CMU rating even when using Resource A of the IEBC is still 2+ hours of fire rating.

Floor: concrete (around 4" or so thick). Beneath floor, non-combustible dirt (thickness: 20 to 30 miles thick for the crust of the earth)

CMU wall: 8" thick. 7-5/8" thick plus cement/plaster coat on exterior. So, lets assume 8" for purpose of Resource A. The cement plaster would be carrying on about the same fire resistance per mm of thickness as the CMU itself.

It is one of the following: Assuming in this case, no facings. Assuming no combustible framed into the wall. 

W-8-M-76 ---- 4hrs

W-8-M-78 ---- 3 hrs

W-8-M-80 ---- 3 hrs

W-8-M-82 ---- 2h30m

W-8-M-84 ---- 2 hrs

At the low end, it's 2 hr. rating.

On the other side, the stud frame wall has another 30 minutes to an hour. 

You do realize also that the CMU wall on the south side of the stage between the stage and the backstage is a fire barrier because the roof for the back stage and the roof for the main theater is a separate roof system and separated by the CMU wall.

There is also elevation difference between the floor of the main theater (audience) and the backstage. The main theater room floor is concrete and is lower than the back stage floor by about 2-1/2 ft.

There is a CMU wall going up. Lets not forget also just below the door is a solid poured concrete ramp going up to it that we had to notch out for part of the framing. That was solid poured concrete. If it was anything like the concrete 'pad' that a washer machine sat on that we had to bust up and the floor in the back, it would be ridiculously loaded with so much damn rebar it be crazy. We elected not to remove it completely. Notch it out, and retain for the future. I can tell you, that ramp isn't going to burn. We had to notch it so we can frame in and line up the deck surface with the floor line of the back stage. The backstage floor is poured reinforced concrete, 1980s era. That's UL listed rated. Standard concrete. 

The floor of the main theater is poured concrete. Standard poured concrete. It's not going to burn. It's non-combustible. Between the stage and back stage, you got concrete floor and CMU wall system. 

You do realize an M.E. did the sprinkler systems plans. 

I'm going to tell you like I tell the building official and building inspectors. If you site code requirements, you cite the code section and what code you are basing on.

I'm not going to be running around through all the codes for you for the Nth time after the project had been completed. 

Why don't you start with Chapter 34. When you deal with an existing building, you start with Chapter 34. How it works is, I can use IEBC but the stricter provisions of Chapter 34 applies but Chapter 34 has two paths.

There's the normal prescribed option Sections 3403-3407. Then there is Compliance Alternatives under Section 3410.  

You are including the backstage as part of the stage per definition of 410.3.1.1.

What is fire resistant rated construction? Even when going to IEBC for pre-UL era listed material for fire rating, the CMU would still be 2-hr rated. What does 410.5.2 say again? 

NONE of the CMU wall rating is under 1-hr. rated. Lets' go to Section 702.1 for the actual definition of Fire Barrier. What does it say? Even the 6" CMU parapets are at least rated with a minimum of 1hr+15min. per IEBC. Even at the least, the build is rated for 1-hr. Let's not forget the drywall on wood frame. If I recall correctly, it was about 5/8" thick. That's another 30 minutes or so at the least.

Lets now go back to Section 410.3.1.1 again.

We can now remove the backstage from the stage area calculation. Now lets go to Section 4.10.7.2

760 sq.ft. stage < 1000 sq.ft.

As for roof vents, I can't recall if we added any. I believe I recall seeing them and the trace of light from the sky above when looking up at the roof. It's been a number of years. From what it appears new vent devices were installed on the roof. 

As for the Standpipes, we are back under the 1000 sq.ft. rule. Remember, fire resistant construction (CMU wall again?) CMU has a fire resistance rating of at least 1 hour for 6" or more Hollow core C.M.U. from IEBC Resource A.

If I go to old books, it's probably more than that. 

I use the lowest rating for the CMUs and I still would have 1-1/2+ hr. rating. Below the backstage floor, you have dirt. Where the backstage floor joins up to the CMU wall of the original CMU building structure consisting of the stage, seating area, etc., the CMU continues below the backstage's concrete floor. 

You have concrete after concrete after concrete. It's a fire barrier of at least 1-hour rating.

When has 6" and larger C.M.U. been less than 1-hr rated?

Apr 29, 16 3:31 am  · 
 · 

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