I know this is a really subjective question, but I'm just curious to see how any of you Architecters are handling debt from architecture school (grad or undergrad, or both) in the "real world."
I'm deciding between an M.Arch program that'll run me up $260,000 after 3 years (GSAPP), or a program that'll run me up a quarter of that (UT Austin). And it's great for me to think about how great the theory, work and conceptual strength of GSAPP is -- but I'm trying to get a better picture of what that kind of debt actually means down the road.
Shot in the dark, but esp. if anyone took a large amount of debt (oh, say.. 6 figures) to attend architecture school, how are you dealing with that post-graduation?
Sorry, you should not go to Columbia if you can't even do math.
Columbia is ~$38,000 a year and factoring another $20,000 a year in room and board and $2000 for fees, books and supplies... This should come out to less than ~$180,000 for three years.
Oh man, this question gets asked so much it's unbearable, you are going to get a barrage of people that say 'no, no, no' because the salary's in architecture simply don't add up to a comfortable life + payback when you are looking at 100k+ loans.
I have pointed out before, that on Archinect, you have a majority population who is posting from work, M-F, and aren't that invested in their jobs=bored. If you are this person, AND you have 100k+ in debt, you are in the sewer. Take the responses from this post lightly, chances are you will get some real sob stories.
I am in a similar boat! choosing between Penn and Berkeley, with a roughly 4:1 cost ratio.
Get this, you only live one time. I have a boatload of professors who got their degrees from Columbia, taking out gargantuan loans and they aren't begging on the streets for money. The same goes for Penn. These are places where you have a chance to play in the big leagues (not that Berkeley and Austin are not), but take a look at the resumes of some of the world's best designers, deans of schools, CEO's of global firms, they have a common thread... elite schools.
I say to myself (and recommend to you) : go and visit the programs, see where you feel at home, ultimately, if I feel like Penn is a place where I can really grow, where I will find like minded people that can contribute to making a firm where the work is of a high enough caliber that commissions roll in, then 10 years down the road, I (you) won't sweat $260,000.
On the other hand, it's a deal with the devil, if... by chance, you decide that in five years you don't want the rat race and instead want to settle down in the country, your 2600/Mo. loan payments will make that next to impossible. Austin (Berkeley) provides for a degree of flexibility in life... you can theoretically deal with 100k in loans as a waiter while things sort themselves out, tough, but not impossible.
Good luck! I am interested to know what decision you will make, I am currently leaning towards Cal.
thanks lorem, haha. yea, keep me posted on your choice too.
($110,000 at the current year's tuition rate, not accounting for raises in tuition, plus the interest at the current 6.8% for the Federal Stafford loan rate over a 30 year repayment period, assuming consistent monthly payments of a little more than $700/month. quick and dirty calculation using a Stafford principal/interest calculation, for the sake of getting a bearing on the debt.)
I'd like to think that's a reasonable, quick bad-case scenario calculation.
Hey internet friends, I'm in the same boat. I'm reposting my question from another thread ---- but before I do that, let's throw these concepts into the mix:
"Does anyone know anything about income-based repayment and/or loan forgiveness?
The only reason I'm even thinking about taking out approx. 100k to go to a top school this fall is because of my assumption that monthly loan payments will be 15% of my discretionary monthly income - and I could have it all forgiven (yet counted as taxable income for that year) after 20 years of payments.
Also, if I work for a non-profit design firm everything could be forgiven in 10 years - and not counted as taxable income.
Does anyone think this sounds reasonable? Stupid? Etc?
PS: The scary part is that if I only pay 15%, the interest will probably triple the loan after 20 years. That's about $350,000 of taxable income if I choose loan forgiveness.."
Oh and another thing, since there are obviously so, so many of us (i.e. this generation) who will have more than 100k in debt - not just in the design-related fields - let's make a pact to band together and help each other, unlike a certain BBB generation...............
Solidarity! (A) (E) ($) ---- get it? Like AES, my loan sharks?? And like anarchy/equality/solidarity............................. yes, i am on a roll today!!
By all means go to UT. The amount of debt you rack up from Columbia is not even worth the degree. With the 150K+ you save, you can even buy yourself a nice house in the Austin area.
With 260k in debt, you will only be making $32,000 your first year out of school (and that's in a good economy). This is isn't like going to law or medical school, where you can rack up an insane amount of debt, and be able to make a killing your first year in practice to justify a giant loan.
This is also what pisses me off about this profession, where you have
ass_ _ _ _ _ like Petey Eisenman going around saying that he shouldn't have to pay his interns because lawyers and doctors do unpaid internships. Last time I checked, architects don't make six figure salaries the minute they graduate, nor do firms come on campus to recruit from the graduating classes.
Also, take into account that there is usually a cap in the amount of taxable interest you can deduct from your income tax...currently its about $2500. So, even if you pay $15,000 in interest alone from your student debt, Uncle Sam will only deduct $2500.
if you have a rich uncle or a relatively massive trust fund...by all mens GO fot it!
If not, only do the very expensive option if you prefer the socioeconomic status of an indentured servant...aka slave....
In fact, if you have to go into debt at all to attend school--->DO NOT DO ARCHITECTURE!
starting pay for an MArch was average 35K according to the AIA...and that was BEFORE the current market meltdown.
Even engineers graduating with a four year bachelors START at an average of 60K...and they are still players even in this market.
Engineering, law, medicine, dentistry, MBA...practically anything but Architecture...heck even the common construction laborer makes more than the average architect these days plus they have better benefits and more stability.
If you don't have substantial financial resources, and unless you want to live in abject economic slavery and live the life of the starving artist beatnik...DON'T DO IT...because that is what 9 out of 10 times the lifestyle the profession and society will expect from you these days (thanks to all the unlicensed knuckle draggers in academia).
I don't know you, if you were my friend I'd tell you RUN. If you were my enemy I'd say, SSUURREE...the waters fine, come on in!
THis frog wished he would have jumped out of this pot when he first started sensing the temperature rising.
As it is I have 50k in student debt, and no way for the profession to employ me in any capacity where the debt can pay for itself. So I am currently planning an escape route that ironically involves more school but much more tangible and substantial financial rewards in order to free myself from this unsustainable yoke of debt I incurred getting a Masters in Architecture.
I agree that the Baby Boomers have failed the next generation, and then some (made us into slaves before we were even born)...but whoeer said,
"Solidarity! (A) (E) ($) ---- get it? Like AES, my loan sharks?? And like anarchy/equality/solidarity"
sounds like the hyenas in the story The Lion King who follow Scar at first. Only to find out that the path of "anarchy" "equality" and "solidarity" inevitably leads to decay and unsustainablility too.
The real solution isn't (A) (E) or ($)
It is to think about who our real God is instead of what the baby boomers made it out to be (glass, steel, things, $$$, power) , and by remembering that we are children of a loving Heavenly Father (aka the real God) we can be motivated towards forming a healthy and productive society again.
Take the One True God out of the equation and no matter what plan is attempted. it will fail, especially in America. Because America was founded on the idea of Divine Providence and a Loving, Omniscient Creator.
If only we could tap into that power...it is more powerful than any contrived invention or scheme of man...this truth has the power to transcend and correct every ill.
OPur ancestors used this power and so can our generation...if we choose to. Just because the baby boomers turned away from the one true God doesn't mean our Heavenly Father doesn't love our generation and isn't willing to hear our pleas for help. He loves us and if we turn towards Him again he will help us again. If we do what the baby boomers did and turn our backs as they would ahve us do as they did, it is guaranteed we will continue this downward spiral that they have perpetuated.
I think this thread would be more productive if we spoke in objective terms, not subjective "should I? shouldn't I?" because every situation is different...
Let's share useful information, like chicarchitect has.
The $2500 annual paid interest tax credit cap is useful - thanks for posting that.
Can we talk about income-based repayment and loan forgiveness? And the implications of emigration?
as long as you know what you are getting in to, and know the benefits of the school that will leave you with student loan debt, and you think it is worth it, i'd say go for it.
you can earn a decent living as an architect and the debt could be worth it if you take advantage of what the school offers
plus, if you are just going back to school now, a reasonable estimate would say that the economy will be in better shape when you graduate than it is now. so you arent entering this terrible market right now
I had 60k in debt from school, and have survived as an architect, so its definitely possible.
What are the benefits to GSAPP beyond the theory of the program? I think to take on that amount of debt compared to somewhere 1/4 of it, there needs to be an overwhelming amount of benefits to the school for you personally.
balanca, are you looking at loan forgiveness for services like Americorps or government work? I couldn't see any other way for an architect to get any kind of forgiveness.
the $700-ish a month calculation already ballooned the debt to more than 2x, so I think an income-based repayment should be avoided. better to penny pinch a little more starting out to get that loan paid off asap. this isn't even considering the fact that your income will hopefully increase over the 30 year period, giving you the option to pay off more to reduce that final interest amount.
i think it depends on what your end goals for masters degree are. if you are planning to stay in academia (or make connections on an ivy league level) then it's worth the debt of a more prestigious school.
but if you intend to practice as an architect, either for someone or independently, it's probably not a wise use of resources. unless of course you have family that can subsidize you in any way.
For those of us who currently are in the clutches of AES or MOHELA, this Bill doesn't do much for us since it really only takes effect until 2014 if I understood correctly. It's good to see veryone else in their offices has little to do right now hahaha.
To the person who said "you only live once", I agree, go for it, just make sure that you are confident enough in your skills and work ethic that you will be able to get out of debt with just that rather than with the weight of a bad astainless steel school name behind you. The problem with most of these bad ass schools is that they work with theory mostly, meaning it is still currently impractical. Oh, and start trying to meet some really rich people so that they can invest in your fantasy projects. Or hope to win a few competitons.
i believe that after 25 years (yikes! i know) of the income based repayment and the income contingent repayment, your direct federal loans will be forgiven. but that's not tax-free forgiveness. of course you're only eligible if you make under 45k, which i don't think is a problem for most of us right after grad school.
i recently applied to switch from income contingent (where my payment was 404/month) to income based (where my payment will be 185). that plus my citibank loans and my perkins loan (which i didn't consolidate with my other federal loans because i didn't want to start paying them early) brings me in under 500/ month, which is doable with a cheap apartment, no car, no kids, and no credit card debt. the standard repayment plan would be impossible for me and even the icr was a stretch (no savings=really really scary). i am, of course, making even less than i would at an arch firm, so things would be much better with an extra few thousand/year. maybe even the standard repayment plan would be possible.
that said, is the debt worth it? i have two ivy degrees and that still hasn't gotten me the job of my dreams. however, i loved my march program and only occasionally regret it, usually when viewing my bank statements.
I had to put my $110,000 student loan on forbearance this year. That decision added $8000 to the principal of the loan. Since I only made $36,000 this year, that means that my real income was $36,000 - $8,000 = $28,000. I pray for hyperinflation these days.
my gut tells me $260,000 in student loans for an architect is way too much debt. completely untenable. that money cannot be forgiven in bankruptcy. i'm really shocked that a school like columbia would knowingly put a student in that position. to me, columbia if that is the case is as culpable as countrywide or fannie/freddie were in lending to subprime borrowers, and what is worse, the school does not even take on the risk of the loan.
fyi i have 80k in student debt. my wife and i combined make too much (which is not a lot) to qualify for income based repayment, so i'm on a 30-year repayment plan at $340/month which is manageable. (but i was fortunate enought to consolidate at a very low interest rate - 2.8% - it's unlikely that everyone would be fortunate enough to get that low a rate.)
I was in the same boat two years ago. Got into Columbia, my dream school, as well as UT , Cincinatti and Sci-arc. I had my heart set on Columbia. I visited and it wasnt for me. I visited sci-arc and it was a fit. I really feel like I dodged a bullet on that visit to Columbia...if I would have liked it...id be 180,000 dollars in debt. After its all said and done at sci-arc, through scholarships, TA'ing, and side job working, ill only be 22,000 in debt. I say visit your schools, and choose what feels right. If Columbia still feels right...then you'll have a tough economic choice. Also, while Columbia is still and always will be an amazing school.....all those deans and profs running around with Columbia degrees are from the mid 90's.....
I was in a very similar boat a about four years ago. Being an international student, I only qualified for very high interest private loans (7.5-8% interest, including throughout school).
Personally, I couldn't envision myself carrying that much debt ($50k/yr x 3.5 + interest), since I come from a culture where being in debt is not the norm - I'm not saying that's a better way, it's just how I grew up. Also, consider the salaries upon graduation....
So I went to UT Austin. Great education for the price, and so much opportunity to get out with a very small amount of loans. What I discovered is that lots of other students were there for the same reason - $$.
Do I still think about the "What if..."? Certainly. And I am aware that my non-Ivy degree will limit me in some ways. But then again, so will a $700/mo loan payment.
I was in a very similar boat about four years ago. Being an international student, I only qualified for very high interest private loans (7.5-8% interest, including throughout school).
Personally, I couldn't envision myself carrying that much debt ($50k/yr x 3.5 + interest), since I come from a culture where being in debt is not the norm - I'm not saying that's a better way, it's just how I grew up. Also, consider the salaries upon graduation....
So I went to UT Austin. Great education for the price, and so much opportunity to get out with a very small amount of loans. What I discovered is that lots of other students were there for the same reason - $$.
Do I still think about the "What if..."? Certainly. And I am aware that my non-Ivy degree will limit me in some ways. But then again, so will a $700/mo loan payment.
There are many, many facets to this question. So far I'm most in agreement with jafidler. On a gut level, anything more than $50k or so is a lot of money; a quarter of a million in debt makes me sick to my stomach.
One view from me, courtesy of a comment one of my students made this week: being successful as a self-employed architect means being able to say no to jobs that are a bad fit. The more you owe upon graduation, the less you are going to be able to say no.
i accumulated 28K in debt at the gsd during the mid 90's. now, i worked during the non-academic times of the year, my wife made enough for our basic living expenses, and we paid the balance between that and the rest of the bills of grad school out of pocket.
250K in debt, for grad school, seems incredibly, ridiculously unreal to me. i'm kind of with donna on this one - i can't construct any logical argument for any student to take on that kind of debt, unless you're attending one of the top 5 business schools AND know you would be a top 10% graduate at the end.
if ut austin works for you, i'd go for that. live incredibly frugally during that time and do your best to pay down what you can. even though inflation will decrease the actual 'value' of the loan, it won't make up that much.
One of the only ways to pull it off guys is the DINK philosophy... Double Income No Children hahaha. Right on Outed, i'm on the same boat, actually, we are all on the same boat.
250K, sell out and go into Construction Law, take you BAR, make some money, and then come back to architecture (I'm kinda joking). Quarter of a Million Dollars is excesive.
I hate contributing to this since almost every finance and education related thread inevitably takes a turn towards the cost of education and the associated worth of choosing a more expensive (and generally elite) school over the less expensive (and generally state) school. For me, the bottom line is not about the money, how long it will take to pay off the loan, etc. It really comes down to this..
Why are you pursuing a graduate degree in architecture and what do you hope to get out of said degree?
I mean this question both in a larger sense of architecture (i.e. your reason to pursue graduate studies is something much larger and more profound than getting a license and a job) and also in a very limited sense in terms of choosing a graduate program specifically for what that program focuses on. Going to a school because it's inexpensive or nationally ranked or any other combination of very external factors is not a smart move in my book. You should be going to graduate school not because it's the next logical step but because you have something you want to learn and (insert school name) is the only institution that will satisfy this demand.
Given the programs you are looking at, I would venture to say you haven't answered that question. Columbia and UT are VASTLY different programs that have very little in common with one another. There is much more than a financial trade-off here which a visit to their websites and seeing the student work should immediately clue you in on. This is not to say one school is superior to the other. Aside from maybe a handful of schools I think every program has a place and purpose...for some people. Architecture programs are not all the same...far from it and choosing a school because it's cheap but maybe you are not interested in the curriculum...well that just seems like a waste of time.
While many people would like to see architecture school become more of a vocational program (meaning school trains you for work), I personally think there is a lot more to architecture than being able to write specifications and coordinate consultant drawings. Graduate school is a one-shot deal (for most people) so I would really consider the kind of architect you would like to be and make sure you go to the school that will provide you those tools.
Sure, post-graduation it's entirely likely that Mr. or Mrs. Columbia degree and Mr. or Mrs. UT degree will find themselves working together in the same office making the same pay. Whatever. If you want it bad enough, you will make it work in the end.
and dotdotdash..., I do realize they're different programs. I went to UT's open house and did GSAPP's summer intro to arch program. GSAPP is more in line with what I want to study and the type of program I want to pursue, but UT also has a fantastic program with its own unique strengths.
anyway, the point is I know very well where each school/program stands. I'm just making sure I go into this, whichever one I choose, with eyes wide open. I'm making sure that I'm the only one to blame and the only one responsible for that choice.
(I got into other schools too, so it's not like I'm just throwing a dart at the most expensive and cheapest school. It's been a lot of hard research and introspection over the last year on the issue.)
GSAPP is more in line with what I want to study and the type of program I want to pursue
Not knowing anything about your background I would say that 10-15 years from now you would say something completely entirely different. Maybe not. Perhaps you are 40 years old and really really know what you want in life but I think on average, decisions on what university to attend are made in haste, grand and undergrad included.
I have pointed out before, that on Archinect, you have a majority population who is posting from work, M-F, and aren't that invested in their jobs=bored.
Yes and no. Right now I'm sure you have a lot of unemployed people that are bitter and resentful of the profession. On average work has slowed giving us more time to post messages and well, gripe, but it would be irresponsible to not account for the cyclical nature of this profession and the fact that it's a very real reality that you could quite possibly be in over $200k of student debt with no job prospect in sight.
I assure you that once you graduate and enter the "real world" your perspective will be much different from where it is today. Someday you'll want to live in a decent place, enjoy a holiday, etc. Starting out with student debt larger than what many homes cost is a huge financial drain and that one decision will be a lifetime financial drain. No alumni network in Architecture is worth what some of these universities are charging these days. I challenge you to think of yourself at retirement age and really consider if over a lifetime GSAPP is really worth more than UT.
i have to agree with aquapura about changing perspectives. when i was in school, i thought it was bar none the most important endeavor in the world. i would have (and did) sacrificed a lot personally and financially to further my studies.
four years later, with a significant paycut and intermittent furloughs, i am dependent on my non arch S.O. to pay my living expenses, my ARE's and my student loans. i'm very proud of my education but it looks more and more like personal edification.
^ True. 15 years from now it's possibly that GSAPP is no longer what sixtrain is interested in. But then again, 15 years from now, UT may not be either. It's a process and you never know until you try. Sure they is a huge price tag associated with it, but there are worse things.
And while planning ahead is a good practice, retirement? really? So really you are saying "Consider the cost of your funeral and make sure you go to a graduate school that will allow you to budget for your funeral."
Although it's a huge financial burden, you can make it work if it's what you want to do. I have $90k to look forward to paying off (whenever I get a job) and I wouldn't have done it any other way. I look and see all the people from my Undergrad (state school) who just went ahead and continued into the graduate program because it was here and cheap. 3...4...5 years later they all still work at the same offices, live in the same apartments doing the same job. It's pretty depressing and more so because 30 years from now I am sure it will be exactly the same. I'm happier being unemployed with my student loan debt from going to a more expensive out-of-state school. But that's just me.
What other schools are you looking at sixtrain? I could think of a couple that offer similar programs as GSAPP that are not as expensive (although still not cheap).
Practicing Architect 30 years here; I've never talked to a single alumni group, person or anything regarding my school in my entire career. I practice for myself and have found my best asset was my ability to make friends and connect. You can not buy that. Graduate with the least debt possible and work on your sense of humor, that will get you the farthest in life.
I mean that is the best laid out plan I have ever heard before. It sounds like you know exactly what you are getting yourself into. Probably worked in the architecture field for a few summers too, right? So you have the big picture all figured out. $260,000 for a shot at 1/10,000 to be a big leager. I think you could do it.
I wouldn't even worry about the loans. I'd bet that if you didn't make the big league and you suplimented your architecture gig with a night job, say as a male prostitute or porn star, you could break even in like ten years. So,......
"I had 60k in debt from school, and have survived as an architect, so its definitely possible."
Yeah, cuz $60k and $260 are really very similar, except for that pesky 2 which really isn't so bad until you put the $ in front of it and two more 00's after it with a k like $200k MORE.
On the Fence
i cant tell if you are just an ass or are an idiot, though i imagine its some combination of the 2, leaning more towards the first
but thank you for that lovely math lesson of which is a greater number
my point, which you clearly just ignored and i am used to by now, is that debt is not an impossible task for an architect, despite the constant whining and bitching and moaning by way too many architects. If you had bothered to read what was before and after that one single line quote, you would see my reasoning.
But again, you just seem to be one of those miserable architects who think the world has screwed him over and nothing that is wrong is ever his fault. Get over yourself already, and if you have nothing to add to the conversation beyond your continuous whining, dont post
I spent extra money to go to a poncey private school and while I loved the education I got there, I now feel ambivalent about my choice in retrospect because the debt hangs like a shackle from my leg. What Donna said above is exactly what it feels like:
The more you owe upon graduation, the less you are going to be able to say no.
and I never realized that when I took the debt on. You don't really understand what it means to have your choices in life restricted by debt, when you are 18 or 22 and your eyes are starstruck by what appear to be the "top teachers in the profession" and the "most exciting ideas", etcetera.
So, it's a really tough decision, and I feel for you. For what it's worth, I still draw on my education, which was in fact top notch. However, the network I thought I would gain from my school is not really there -- one thing you learn is that architecture networks are suprisingly region-specific... 100% of my job contacts, private commission contacts, etcetera has come from either arch contacts I made in the profession or from completely non-architectural networks. That means that my actual career (apart from the education which forms the basis of my career) has actually been more strongly influenced by my own ability to generate contacts than it has been at all by the school I went to. However, I did get a good education.
The downside is that I have a little over $60,000 in debt, and 10 years out of school I have paid about $2,000 of that down. My payments are already about about $450 a month, and I got laid off this year. I WAS saving up for a house, but now I'm living off that while taking side jobs. So you definitely think a lot about how you really WISH you could take that dream job at that starchitect firm or join the peace corps or whatever, but they only pay a living stipend and a living stipend won't cover your student loan payments, which wait for no man. Then you realize how long it will take you to save up for a house, when almost $500/month of your wages goes straight down a hole of interest payments. It's pretty depressing.
Arch. school is 3 years of your life. But THEN you have the rest of your life to live, and to practice actually *being* an architect. Don't make a mistake that will haunt you and constrict the real choices that face you during the rest of your life. Honestly, much of this profession is built on autodidacticism anyway - you'll be teaching yourself in uni and you'll be building up your own networks (and continuing to teach yourself) for the rest of your life.
on the other hand: I have always been financially able to meet my loan payments in this profession; I've never had to take a furlough or whatever you call it from paying. Then again I had wanted to pay down extra to pay them off early, and I haven't been able to do that. It's not like you're destitute as an architect, but you typically aren't wealthy either.
The article is one of the most depressing pieces of paper I have read lately.
Working for Gehry (I assume), $1200 a month net in LA after loan payments, up to 90 hours a week of work and 3 hours a day driving. I would rather work in a maquiladora in Mexico or a toy factory in China. Not joking.
I currently work in a so-called 3rd world country in SE Asia, and everybody I know (including locals) have a better quality of life / economic situation/salary per hour than this well-educated woman from a 1st world country.
are you paying any attention to people who have actually walked the path or just the college students stories/ theories of how it could/should be? If you want to give advice, I'd suggest accumulating a bit of experiance first, prior to fucking up somebodies life.
Just my 2 cents, which seems to be about $1.95 more than you are offering.
Hopefully I haven't confused you with another poster again marmkid. If you feel I have then just tell me this. How many years have you been practicing architecture, how old are you and how much does your $60k cost you per month.
I suppose we can use mantarays number. He has 60k in loans he pays $450/month. Using this your min. payment looks to be about $2000/month for $260k in loans.
An intern makes about $32k starting. An March bay be able to get $38k to start and an March from a very prestigious school may average $39k. Now obviously he may get super lucky and be that diamond in the ruff and start out at $45k. Great. Mantaray who posted above has paid down his $60k loan $2k. Seems awefully low to me but that is his number. And maybe in 10 years this guy could be making $80k or $90k. By this time he may have a wife, kids and a goldfish so that $90k is equivalent to $35k again.
The question isn't how long will it take to pay off the debt, but at what cost to his quality of life will this effect. $2k/month?
I was in a similar situation a long time ago - between Columbia, Berkeley and UCLA for grad. I just couldn't justify Columbia, as much I as I wanted some of the qualities (and name) that it offered it just wasn't going to make a difference to my career (not more so than UCLA). I chose UCLA and saved $100k or so in loans.
BUT, if I had to do over again, and this is the ONLY question I have about the choices I made, I would have paid for the MSRED/MArch combo degree.
If you can get a MBA or some business degree from Columbia, then it could pay you back down the road. But for architecture, no way, unless you have a rich relative or marry someone wealthy.
As a side note, because of the path I have chosen, my loans are no burden to me at this point (however, seeing that I could be driving a nicer beemer for what goes out each month, or be traveling the world in luxury or...or...).
"Hopefully I haven't confused you with another poster again marmkid. If you feel I have then just tell me this. How many years have you been practicing architecture, how old are you and how much does your $60k cost you per month."
I dont really care if you are rationalizing being an ass by claiming to yet again confuse me with someone else. It gets old if you continue to not actually read peoples posts but just copy one single line and ignore the rest. Read my entire post before quoting it please
I have 7 years experience and pay anywhere between $500-$1000 a month back towards my loans, depending on how the month goes. Take that for what you will, if you dont feel that is actually real experience and i am just going with "college students stories/ theories of how it could/should be", personally i dont care.
If you dont think that is relevant experience, fine.
If you cant keep posters straight, dont quote them and then claim they are ignorant of the subject.
Again, my point was to illustrate that loans are not a death sentence for an architect, despite the constant whining from others who say it is impossible. Would i take 260K? no. Even if i was guaranteed a 6 figure salary, i wouldnt take 260K in loans unless the school i went to had other benefits to make it worthwhile, which i dont know could happen in architecture. But that is my personal decision, and not a universal one for everyone.
I look and see all the people from my Undergrad (state school) who just went ahead and continued into the graduate program because it was here and cheap. 3...4...5 years later they all still work at the same offices, live in the same apartments doing the same job.
You are what you make of yourself. I have always laughed at co-workers that have the ivy diploma hanging in their cube because I spent a fraction of that and am doing the same shit as them. Just because you go to some state school doesn't mean you are stuck in that same city for the rest of your life. I'd imagine most UT grads leave Austin, and many go well beyond TX.
And while planning ahead is a good practice, retirement? really? So really you are saying "Consider the cost of your funeral and make sure you go to a graduate school that will allow you to budget for your funeral."
Taken a little out of context. The point is when you someday exit this profession is the university you went to 30+ years ago going mean all that much? I've been to a few retirement parties and none of the old timers said anything about their university, the alumni network, their fraternity, etc. College is a fun part of life, but it's not as big of deal many people make it out to be.
I didn't miss anything. I have read your posts. You are correct. You can certainly take on massive amounts of debt and still survive to age 80. But at what cost? You seem to want to argue the debt position from the standpoint of making the NBA draft. It's a 1 in 20,000 longshot. The rest are playing pick up games at the local YMCA. I argue the point from a practical standpoint and "law of averages" position. We know what the averages are for salary and we know what above average salaries are too. My advice helps more people than it could possibly hurt. Your advice will suffocate the average architectural grad student entering this field. So can you take on more debt? Sure. Maybe you get lucky with lotto, marry well, have a trust fund set up or stand a good shot at a large inheritence or plan on living in a cardboard box eating tuna fish or PB&J. $260,000 is way outside the norm. This is MD money we are talking now, not intern/architect money.
Debt from education - worth it in practice?
I know this is a really subjective question, but I'm just curious to see how any of you Architecters are handling debt from architecture school (grad or undergrad, or both) in the "real world."
I'm deciding between an M.Arch program that'll run me up $260,000 after 3 years (GSAPP), or a program that'll run me up a quarter of that (UT Austin). And it's great for me to think about how great the theory, work and conceptual strength of GSAPP is -- but I'm trying to get a better picture of what that kind of debt actually means down the road.
Shot in the dark, but esp. if anyone took a large amount of debt (oh, say.. 6 figures) to attend architecture school, how are you dealing with that post-graduation?
Thanks guys!
What?
Sorry, you should not go to Columbia if you can't even do math.
Columbia is ~$38,000 a year and factoring another $20,000 a year in room and board and $2000 for fees, books and supplies... This should come out to less than ~$180,000 for three years.
Oh man, this question gets asked so much it's unbearable, you are going to get a barrage of people that say 'no, no, no' because the salary's in architecture simply don't add up to a comfortable life + payback when you are looking at 100k+ loans.
I have pointed out before, that on Archinect, you have a majority population who is posting from work, M-F, and aren't that invested in their jobs=bored. If you are this person, AND you have 100k+ in debt, you are in the sewer. Take the responses from this post lightly, chances are you will get some real sob stories.
I am in a similar boat! choosing between Penn and Berkeley, with a roughly 4:1 cost ratio.
Get this, you only live one time. I have a boatload of professors who got their degrees from Columbia, taking out gargantuan loans and they aren't begging on the streets for money. The same goes for Penn. These are places where you have a chance to play in the big leagues (not that Berkeley and Austin are not), but take a look at the resumes of some of the world's best designers, deans of schools, CEO's of global firms, they have a common thread... elite schools.
I say to myself (and recommend to you) : go and visit the programs, see where you feel at home, ultimately, if I feel like Penn is a place where I can really grow, where I will find like minded people that can contribute to making a firm where the work is of a high enough caliber that commissions roll in, then 10 years down the road, I (you) won't sweat $260,000.
On the other hand, it's a deal with the devil, if... by chance, you decide that in five years you don't want the rat race and instead want to settle down in the country, your 2600/Mo. loan payments will make that next to impossible. Austin (Berkeley) provides for a degree of flexibility in life... you can theoretically deal with 100k in loans as a waiter while things sort themselves out, tough, but not impossible.
Good luck! I am interested to know what decision you will make, I am currently leaning towards Cal.
Oh, I forgot to mention about the D-Bags that will talk shit about your loan calculation. :)
thanks lorem, haha. yea, keep me posted on your choice too.
($110,000 at the current year's tuition rate, not accounting for raises in tuition, plus the interest at the current 6.8% for the Federal Stafford loan rate over a 30 year repayment period, assuming consistent monthly payments of a little more than $700/month. quick and dirty calculation using a Stafford principal/interest calculation, for the sake of getting a bearing on the debt.)
I'd like to think that's a reasonable, quick bad-case scenario calculation.
Hey internet friends, I'm in the same boat. I'm reposting my question from another thread ---- but before I do that, let's throw these concepts into the mix:
Income-based repayment
Loan forgiveness
Emigration/Immigration
Quote:
"Does anyone know anything about income-based repayment and/or loan forgiveness?
The only reason I'm even thinking about taking out approx. 100k to go to a top school this fall is because of my assumption that monthly loan payments will be 15% of my discretionary monthly income - and I could have it all forgiven (yet counted as taxable income for that year) after 20 years of payments.
Also, if I work for a non-profit design firm everything could be forgiven in 10 years - and not counted as taxable income.
Does anyone think this sounds reasonable? Stupid? Etc?
PS: The scary part is that if I only pay 15%, the interest will probably triple the loan after 20 years. That's about $350,000 of taxable income if I choose loan forgiveness.."
Oh and another thing, since there are obviously so, so many of us (i.e. this generation) who will have more than 100k in debt - not just in the design-related fields - let's make a pact to band together and help each other, unlike a certain BBB generation...............
Solidarity! (A) (E) ($) ---- get it? Like AES, my loan sharks?? And like anarchy/equality/solidarity............................. yes, i am on a roll today!!
$2600 per month in loan payments?
That's about an intern's take home pay.
What about under the new legislation?
By all means go to UT. The amount of debt you rack up from Columbia is not even worth the degree. With the 150K+ you save, you can even buy yourself a nice house in the Austin area.
With 260k in debt, you will only be making $32,000 your first year out of school (and that's in a good economy). This is isn't like going to law or medical school, where you can rack up an insane amount of debt, and be able to make a killing your first year in practice to justify a giant loan.
This is also what pisses me off about this profession, where you have
ass_ _ _ _ _ like Petey Eisenman going around saying that he shouldn't have to pay his interns because lawyers and doctors do unpaid internships. Last time I checked, architects don't make six figure salaries the minute they graduate, nor do firms come on campus to recruit from the graduating classes.
Sorry, I didn't know bbb was a misogynist porn term --- I meant baby boomers ;)
One last thing: reading this story helped me understand reality a little better:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/24/180000-in-debt_n_473722.html
Also, take into account that there is usually a cap in the amount of taxable interest you can deduct from your income tax...currently its about $2500. So, even if you pay $15,000 in interest alone from your student debt, Uncle Sam will only deduct $2500.
if you have a rich uncle or a relatively massive trust fund...by all mens GO fot it!
If not, only do the very expensive option if you prefer the socioeconomic status of an indentured servant...aka slave....
In fact, if you have to go into debt at all to attend school--->DO NOT DO ARCHITECTURE!
starting pay for an MArch was average 35K according to the AIA...and that was BEFORE the current market meltdown.
Even engineers graduating with a four year bachelors START at an average of 60K...and they are still players even in this market.
Engineering, law, medicine, dentistry, MBA...practically anything but Architecture...heck even the common construction laborer makes more than the average architect these days plus they have better benefits and more stability.
If you don't have substantial financial resources, and unless you want to live in abject economic slavery and live the life of the starving artist beatnik...DON'T DO IT...because that is what 9 out of 10 times the lifestyle the profession and society will expect from you these days (thanks to all the unlicensed knuckle draggers in academia).
I don't know you, if you were my friend I'd tell you RUN. If you were my enemy I'd say, SSUURREE...the waters fine, come on in!
THis frog wished he would have jumped out of this pot when he first started sensing the temperature rising.
As it is I have 50k in student debt, and no way for the profession to employ me in any capacity where the debt can pay for itself. So I am currently planning an escape route that ironically involves more school but much more tangible and substantial financial rewards in order to free myself from this unsustainable yoke of debt I incurred getting a Masters in Architecture.
I agree that the Baby Boomers have failed the next generation, and then some (made us into slaves before we were even born)...but whoeer said,
"Solidarity! (A) (E) ($) ---- get it? Like AES, my loan sharks?? And like anarchy/equality/solidarity"
sounds like the hyenas in the story The Lion King who follow Scar at first. Only to find out that the path of "anarchy" "equality" and "solidarity" inevitably leads to decay and unsustainablility too.
The real solution isn't (A) (E) or ($)
It is to think about who our real God is instead of what the baby boomers made it out to be (glass, steel, things, $$$, power) , and by remembering that we are children of a loving Heavenly Father (aka the real God) we can be motivated towards forming a healthy and productive society again.
Take the One True God out of the equation and no matter what plan is attempted. it will fail, especially in America. Because America was founded on the idea of Divine Providence and a Loving, Omniscient Creator.
If only we could tap into that power...it is more powerful than any contrived invention or scheme of man...this truth has the power to transcend and correct every ill.
OPur ancestors used this power and so can our generation...if we choose to. Just because the baby boomers turned away from the one true God doesn't mean our Heavenly Father doesn't love our generation and isn't willing to hear our pleas for help. He loves us and if we turn towards Him again he will help us again. If we do what the baby boomers did and turn our backs as they would ahve us do as they did, it is guaranteed we will continue this downward spiral that they have perpetuated.
I think this thread would be more productive if we spoke in objective terms, not subjective "should I? shouldn't I?" because every situation is different...
Let's share useful information, like chicarchitect has.
The $2500 annual paid interest tax credit cap is useful - thanks for posting that.
Can we talk about income-based repayment and loan forgiveness? And the implications of emigration?
as long as you know what you are getting in to, and know the benefits of the school that will leave you with student loan debt, and you think it is worth it, i'd say go for it.
you can earn a decent living as an architect and the debt could be worth it if you take advantage of what the school offers
plus, if you are just going back to school now, a reasonable estimate would say that the economy will be in better shape when you graduate than it is now. so you arent entering this terrible market right now
I had 60k in debt from school, and have survived as an architect, so its definitely possible.
What are the benefits to GSAPP beyond the theory of the program? I think to take on that amount of debt compared to somewhere 1/4 of it, there needs to be an overwhelming amount of benefits to the school for you personally.
balanca, are you looking at loan forgiveness for services like Americorps or government work? I couldn't see any other way for an architect to get any kind of forgiveness.
the $700-ish a month calculation already ballooned the debt to more than 2x, so I think an income-based repayment should be avoided. better to penny pinch a little more starting out to get that loan paid off asap. this isn't even considering the fact that your income will hopefully increase over the 30 year period, giving you the option to pay off more to reduce that final interest amount.
i think it depends on what your end goals for masters degree are. if you are planning to stay in academia (or make connections on an ivy league level) then it's worth the debt of a more prestigious school.
but if you intend to practice as an architect, either for someone or independently, it's probably not a wise use of resources. unless of course you have family that can subsidize you in any way.
For those of us who currently are in the clutches of AES or MOHELA, this Bill doesn't do much for us since it really only takes effect until 2014 if I understood correctly. It's good to see veryone else in their offices has little to do right now hahaha.
To the person who said "you only live once", I agree, go for it, just make sure that you are confident enough in your skills and work ethic that you will be able to get out of debt with just that rather than with the weight of a bad astainless steel school name behind you. The problem with most of these bad ass schools is that they work with theory mostly, meaning it is still currently impractical. Oh, and start trying to meet some really rich people so that they can invest in your fantasy projects. Or hope to win a few competitons.
My feeling is you get out of any good architecture school what you bring into it (talent) plus what you put into it (passion and hard work).
I also believe that 90% of what you will need as you get into your career you will learn on the job.
Go to a school you can afford, live and breathe architecture, get your degree, and go to work for a good firm that is willing to teach you.
It is incredible how often we talk about the same exact thing in these grad school discussions.
i believe that after 25 years (yikes! i know) of the income based repayment and the income contingent repayment, your direct federal loans will be forgiven. but that's not tax-free forgiveness. of course you're only eligible if you make under 45k, which i don't think is a problem for most of us right after grad school.
i recently applied to switch from income contingent (where my payment was 404/month) to income based (where my payment will be 185). that plus my citibank loans and my perkins loan (which i didn't consolidate with my other federal loans because i didn't want to start paying them early) brings me in under 500/ month, which is doable with a cheap apartment, no car, no kids, and no credit card debt. the standard repayment plan would be impossible for me and even the icr was a stretch (no savings=really really scary). i am, of course, making even less than i would at an arch firm, so things would be much better with an extra few thousand/year. maybe even the standard repayment plan would be possible.
that said, is the debt worth it? i have two ivy degrees and that still hasn't gotten me the job of my dreams. however, i loved my march program and only occasionally regret it, usually when viewing my bank statements.
I had to put my $110,000 student loan on forbearance this year. That decision added $8000 to the principal of the loan. Since I only made $36,000 this year, that means that my real income was $36,000 - $8,000 = $28,000. I pray for hyperinflation these days.
my gut tells me $260,000 in student loans for an architect is way too much debt. completely untenable. that money cannot be forgiven in bankruptcy. i'm really shocked that a school like columbia would knowingly put a student in that position. to me, columbia if that is the case is as culpable as countrywide or fannie/freddie were in lending to subprime borrowers, and what is worse, the school does not even take on the risk of the loan.
fyi i have 80k in student debt. my wife and i combined make too much (which is not a lot) to qualify for income based repayment, so i'm on a 30-year repayment plan at $340/month which is manageable. (but i was fortunate enought to consolidate at a very low interest rate - 2.8% - it's unlikely that everyone would be fortunate enough to get that low a rate.)
I was in the same boat two years ago. Got into Columbia, my dream school, as well as UT , Cincinatti and Sci-arc. I had my heart set on Columbia. I visited and it wasnt for me. I visited sci-arc and it was a fit. I really feel like I dodged a bullet on that visit to Columbia...if I would have liked it...id be 180,000 dollars in debt. After its all said and done at sci-arc, through scholarships, TA'ing, and side job working, ill only be 22,000 in debt. I say visit your schools, and choose what feels right. If Columbia still feels right...then you'll have a tough economic choice. Also, while Columbia is still and always will be an amazing school.....all those deans and profs running around with Columbia degrees are from the mid 90's.....
I was in a very similar boat a about four years ago. Being an international student, I only qualified for very high interest private loans (7.5-8% interest, including throughout school).
Personally, I couldn't envision myself carrying that much debt ($50k/yr x 3.5 + interest), since I come from a culture where being in debt is not the norm - I'm not saying that's a better way, it's just how I grew up. Also, consider the salaries upon graduation....
So I went to UT Austin. Great education for the price, and so much opportunity to get out with a very small amount of loans. What I discovered is that lots of other students were there for the same reason - $$.
Do I still think about the "What if..."? Certainly. And I am aware that my non-Ivy degree will limit me in some ways. But then again, so will a $700/mo loan payment.
I was in a very similar boat about four years ago. Being an international student, I only qualified for very high interest private loans (7.5-8% interest, including throughout school).
Personally, I couldn't envision myself carrying that much debt ($50k/yr x 3.5 + interest), since I come from a culture where being in debt is not the norm - I'm not saying that's a better way, it's just how I grew up. Also, consider the salaries upon graduation....
So I went to UT Austin. Great education for the price, and so much opportunity to get out with a very small amount of loans. What I discovered is that lots of other students were there for the same reason - $$.
Do I still think about the "What if..."? Certainly. And I am aware that my non-Ivy degree will limit me in some ways. But then again, so will a $700/mo loan payment.
There are many, many facets to this question. So far I'm most in agreement with jafidler. On a gut level, anything more than $50k or so is a lot of money; a quarter of a million in debt makes me sick to my stomach.
One view from me, courtesy of a comment one of my students made this week: being successful as a self-employed architect means being able to say no to jobs that are a bad fit. The more you owe upon graduation, the less you are going to be able to say no.
i accumulated 28K in debt at the gsd during the mid 90's. now, i worked during the non-academic times of the year, my wife made enough for our basic living expenses, and we paid the balance between that and the rest of the bills of grad school out of pocket.
250K in debt, for grad school, seems incredibly, ridiculously unreal to me. i'm kind of with donna on this one - i can't construct any logical argument for any student to take on that kind of debt, unless you're attending one of the top 5 business schools AND know you would be a top 10% graduate at the end.
if ut austin works for you, i'd go for that. live incredibly frugally during that time and do your best to pay down what you can. even though inflation will decrease the actual 'value' of the loan, it won't make up that much.
One of the only ways to pull it off guys is the DINK philosophy... Double Income No Children hahaha. Right on Outed, i'm on the same boat, actually, we are all on the same boat.
250K, sell out and go into Construction Law, take you BAR, make some money, and then come back to architecture (I'm kinda joking). Quarter of a Million Dollars is excesive.
I hate contributing to this since almost every finance and education related thread inevitably takes a turn towards the cost of education and the associated worth of choosing a more expensive (and generally elite) school over the less expensive (and generally state) school. For me, the bottom line is not about the money, how long it will take to pay off the loan, etc. It really comes down to this..
Why are you pursuing a graduate degree in architecture and what do you hope to get out of said degree?
I mean this question both in a larger sense of architecture (i.e. your reason to pursue graduate studies is something much larger and more profound than getting a license and a job) and also in a very limited sense in terms of choosing a graduate program specifically for what that program focuses on. Going to a school because it's inexpensive or nationally ranked or any other combination of very external factors is not a smart move in my book. You should be going to graduate school not because it's the next logical step but because you have something you want to learn and (insert school name) is the only institution that will satisfy this demand.
Given the programs you are looking at, I would venture to say you haven't answered that question. Columbia and UT are VASTLY different programs that have very little in common with one another. There is much more than a financial trade-off here which a visit to their websites and seeing the student work should immediately clue you in on. This is not to say one school is superior to the other. Aside from maybe a handful of schools I think every program has a place and purpose...for some people. Architecture programs are not all the same...far from it and choosing a school because it's cheap but maybe you are not interested in the curriculum...well that just seems like a waste of time.
While many people would like to see architecture school become more of a vocational program (meaning school trains you for work), I personally think there is a lot more to architecture than being able to write specifications and coordinate consultant drawings. Graduate school is a one-shot deal (for most people) so I would really consider the kind of architect you would like to be and make sure you go to the school that will provide you those tools.
Sure, post-graduation it's entirely likely that Mr. or Mrs. Columbia degree and Mr. or Mrs. UT degree will find themselves working together in the same office making the same pay. Whatever. If you want it bad enough, you will make it work in the end.
thanks everyone for the response!
and dotdotdash..., I do realize they're different programs. I went to UT's open house and did GSAPP's summer intro to arch program. GSAPP is more in line with what I want to study and the type of program I want to pursue, but UT also has a fantastic program with its own unique strengths.
anyway, the point is I know very well where each school/program stands. I'm just making sure I go into this, whichever one I choose, with eyes wide open. I'm making sure that I'm the only one to blame and the only one responsible for that choice.
(I got into other schools too, so it's not like I'm just throwing a dart at the most expensive and cheapest school. It's been a lot of hard research and introspection over the last year on the issue.)
Not knowing anything about your background I would say that 10-15 years from now you would say something completely entirely different. Maybe not. Perhaps you are 40 years old and really really know what you want in life but I think on average, decisions on what university to attend are made in haste, grand and undergrad included.
I have pointed out before, that on Archinect, you have a majority population who is posting from work, M-F, and aren't that invested in their jobs=bored.
Yes and no. Right now I'm sure you have a lot of unemployed people that are bitter and resentful of the profession. On average work has slowed giving us more time to post messages and well, gripe, but it would be irresponsible to not account for the cyclical nature of this profession and the fact that it's a very real reality that you could quite possibly be in over $200k of student debt with no job prospect in sight.
I assure you that once you graduate and enter the "real world" your perspective will be much different from where it is today. Someday you'll want to live in a decent place, enjoy a holiday, etc. Starting out with student debt larger than what many homes cost is a huge financial drain and that one decision will be a lifetime financial drain. No alumni network in Architecture is worth what some of these universities are charging these days. I challenge you to think of yourself at retirement age and really consider if over a lifetime GSAPP is really worth more than UT.
i have to agree with aquapura about changing perspectives. when i was in school, i thought it was bar none the most important endeavor in the world. i would have (and did) sacrificed a lot personally and financially to further my studies.
four years later, with a significant paycut and intermittent furloughs, i am dependent on my non arch S.O. to pay my living expenses, my ARE's and my student loans. i'm very proud of my education but it looks more and more like personal edification.
^ True. 15 years from now it's possibly that GSAPP is no longer what sixtrain is interested in. But then again, 15 years from now, UT may not be either. It's a process and you never know until you try. Sure they is a huge price tag associated with it, but there are worse things.
And while planning ahead is a good practice, retirement? really? So really you are saying "Consider the cost of your funeral and make sure you go to a graduate school that will allow you to budget for your funeral."
Although it's a huge financial burden, you can make it work if it's what you want to do. I have $90k to look forward to paying off (whenever I get a job) and I wouldn't have done it any other way. I look and see all the people from my Undergrad (state school) who just went ahead and continued into the graduate program because it was here and cheap. 3...4...5 years later they all still work at the same offices, live in the same apartments doing the same job. It's pretty depressing and more so because 30 years from now I am sure it will be exactly the same. I'm happier being unemployed with my student loan debt from going to a more expensive out-of-state school. But that's just me.
What other schools are you looking at sixtrain? I could think of a couple that offer similar programs as GSAPP that are not as expensive (although still not cheap).
Practicing Architect 30 years here; I've never talked to a single alumni group, person or anything regarding my school in my entire career. I practice for myself and have found my best asset was my ability to make friends and connect. You can not buy that. Graduate with the least debt possible and work on your sense of humor, that will get you the farthest in life.
2step.
awesome.
are you writing this on your yacht?
I say go for it.
I mean that is the best laid out plan I have ever heard before. It sounds like you know exactly what you are getting yourself into. Probably worked in the architecture field for a few summers too, right? So you have the big picture all figured out. $260,000 for a shot at 1/10,000 to be a big leager. I think you could do it.
I wouldn't even worry about the loans. I'd bet that if you didn't make the big league and you suplimented your architecture gig with a night job, say as a male prostitute or porn star, you could break even in like ten years. So,......
Good luck.
marmkid,
"I had 60k in debt from school, and have survived as an architect, so its definitely possible."
Yeah, cuz $60k and $260 are really very similar, except for that pesky 2 which really isn't so bad until you put the $ in front of it and two more 00's after it with a k like $200k MORE.
It's doable all right.
On the Fence
i cant tell if you are just an ass or are an idiot, though i imagine its some combination of the 2, leaning more towards the first
but thank you for that lovely math lesson of which is a greater number
my point, which you clearly just ignored and i am used to by now, is that debt is not an impossible task for an architect, despite the constant whining and bitching and moaning by way too many architects. If you had bothered to read what was before and after that one single line quote, you would see my reasoning.
But again, you just seem to be one of those miserable architects who think the world has screwed him over and nothing that is wrong is ever his fault. Get over yourself already, and if you have nothing to add to the conversation beyond your continuous whining, dont post
I spent extra money to go to a poncey private school and while I loved the education I got there, I now feel ambivalent about my choice in retrospect because the debt hangs like a shackle from my leg. What Donna said above is exactly what it feels like:
The more you owe upon graduation, the less you are going to be able to say no.
and I never realized that when I took the debt on. You don't really understand what it means to have your choices in life restricted by debt, when you are 18 or 22 and your eyes are starstruck by what appear to be the "top teachers in the profession" and the "most exciting ideas", etcetera.
So, it's a really tough decision, and I feel for you. For what it's worth, I still draw on my education, which was in fact top notch. However, the network I thought I would gain from my school is not really there -- one thing you learn is that architecture networks are suprisingly region-specific... 100% of my job contacts, private commission contacts, etcetera has come from either arch contacts I made in the profession or from completely non-architectural networks. That means that my actual career (apart from the education which forms the basis of my career) has actually been more strongly influenced by my own ability to generate contacts than it has been at all by the school I went to. However, I did get a good education.
The downside is that I have a little over $60,000 in debt, and 10 years out of school I have paid about $2,000 of that down. My payments are already about about $450 a month, and I got laid off this year. I WAS saving up for a house, but now I'm living off that while taking side jobs. So you definitely think a lot about how you really WISH you could take that dream job at that starchitect firm or join the peace corps or whatever, but they only pay a living stipend and a living stipend won't cover your student loan payments, which wait for no man. Then you realize how long it will take you to save up for a house, when almost $500/month of your wages goes straight down a hole of interest payments. It's pretty depressing.
Arch. school is 3 years of your life. But THEN you have the rest of your life to live, and to practice actually *being* an architect. Don't make a mistake that will haunt you and constrict the real choices that face you during the rest of your life. Honestly, much of this profession is built on autodidacticism anyway - you'll be teaching yourself in uni and you'll be building up your own networks (and continuing to teach yourself) for the rest of your life.
on the other hand: I have always been financially able to meet my loan payments in this profession; I've never had to take a furlough or whatever you call it from paying. Then again I had wanted to pay down extra to pay them off early, and I haven't been able to do that. It's not like you're destitute as an architect, but you typically aren't wealthy either.
balanca, thanks a lot for your link.
The article is one of the most depressing pieces of paper I have read lately.
Working for Gehry (I assume), $1200 a month net in LA after loan payments, up to 90 hours a week of work and 3 hours a day driving. I would rather work in a maquiladora in Mexico or a toy factory in China. Not joking.
I currently work in a so-called 3rd world country in SE Asia, and everybody I know (including locals) have a better quality of life / economic situation/salary per hour than this well-educated woman from a 1st world country.
Shocking at least.
marmkid,
are you paying any attention to people who have actually walked the path or just the college students stories/ theories of how it could/should be? If you want to give advice, I'd suggest accumulating a bit of experiance first, prior to fucking up somebodies life.
Just my 2 cents, which seems to be about $1.95 more than you are offering.
Hopefully I haven't confused you with another poster again marmkid. If you feel I have then just tell me this. How many years have you been practicing architecture, how old are you and how much does your $60k cost you per month.
I suppose we can use mantarays number. He has 60k in loans he pays $450/month. Using this your min. payment looks to be about $2000/month for $260k in loans.
An intern makes about $32k starting. An March bay be able to get $38k to start and an March from a very prestigious school may average $39k. Now obviously he may get super lucky and be that diamond in the ruff and start out at $45k. Great. Mantaray who posted above has paid down his $60k loan $2k. Seems awefully low to me but that is his number. And maybe in 10 years this guy could be making $80k or $90k. By this time he may have a wife, kids and a goldfish so that $90k is equivalent to $35k again.
The question isn't how long will it take to pay off the debt, but at what cost to his quality of life will this effect. $2k/month?
I was in a similar situation a long time ago - between Columbia, Berkeley and UCLA for grad. I just couldn't justify Columbia, as much I as I wanted some of the qualities (and name) that it offered it just wasn't going to make a difference to my career (not more so than UCLA). I chose UCLA and saved $100k or so in loans.
BUT, if I had to do over again, and this is the ONLY question I have about the choices I made, I would have paid for the MSRED/MArch combo degree.
If you can get a MBA or some business degree from Columbia, then it could pay you back down the road. But for architecture, no way, unless you have a rich relative or marry someone wealthy.
As a side note, because of the path I have chosen, my loans are no burden to me at this point (however, seeing that I could be driving a nicer beemer for what goes out each month, or be traveling the world in luxury or...or...).
Hi,
Peter this side from Canada. The things mentioned are unanimous and needs to be appreciated by everyone. Thanks for the useful information.
Peter
buy candy
"Hopefully I haven't confused you with another poster again marmkid. If you feel I have then just tell me this. How many years have you been practicing architecture, how old are you and how much does your $60k cost you per month."
I dont really care if you are rationalizing being an ass by claiming to yet again confuse me with someone else. It gets old if you continue to not actually read peoples posts but just copy one single line and ignore the rest. Read my entire post before quoting it please
I have 7 years experience and pay anywhere between $500-$1000 a month back towards my loans, depending on how the month goes. Take that for what you will, if you dont feel that is actually real experience and i am just going with "college students stories/ theories of how it could/should be", personally i dont care.
If you dont think that is relevant experience, fine.
If you cant keep posters straight, dont quote them and then claim they are ignorant of the subject.
Again, my point was to illustrate that loans are not a death sentence for an architect, despite the constant whining from others who say it is impossible. Would i take 260K? no. Even if i was guaranteed a 6 figure salary, i wouldnt take 260K in loans unless the school i went to had other benefits to make it worthwhile, which i dont know could happen in architecture. But that is my personal decision, and not a universal one for everyone.
You are what you make of yourself. I have always laughed at co-workers that have the ivy diploma hanging in their cube because I spent a fraction of that and am doing the same shit as them. Just because you go to some state school doesn't mean you are stuck in that same city for the rest of your life. I'd imagine most UT grads leave Austin, and many go well beyond TX.
And while planning ahead is a good practice, retirement? really? So really you are saying "Consider the cost of your funeral and make sure you go to a graduate school that will allow you to budget for your funeral."
Taken a little out of context. The point is when you someday exit this profession is the university you went to 30+ years ago going mean all that much? I've been to a few retirement parties and none of the old timers said anything about their university, the alumni network, their fraternity, etc. College is a fun part of life, but it's not as big of deal many people make it out to be.
marmkid,
I didn't miss anything. I have read your posts. You are correct. You can certainly take on massive amounts of debt and still survive to age 80. But at what cost? You seem to want to argue the debt position from the standpoint of making the NBA draft. It's a 1 in 20,000 longshot. The rest are playing pick up games at the local YMCA. I argue the point from a practical standpoint and "law of averages" position. We know what the averages are for salary and we know what above average salaries are too. My advice helps more people than it could possibly hurt. Your advice will suffocate the average architectural grad student entering this field. So can you take on more debt? Sure. Maybe you get lucky with lotto, marry well, have a trust fund set up or stand a good shot at a large inheritence or plan on living in a cardboard box eating tuna fish or PB&J. $260,000 is way outside the norm. This is MD money we are talking now, not intern/architect money.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.