What you need to know is that what looks like opportunity now, can be burdensome for many years to come. HOW burdensome is related to how much debt you have, your income, lifestlye, and the market among other things. Debt can certainly limit choices, as Donna and others have pointed out, and I know from experience. The further you start in the hole, the more it impacts other major decisions. You've heard about people being underwater on their houses, haven't you? Don't start your career from the bottom of the ocean.
Don't high school and college kids have jobs to help pay for their wants and wishes anymore? I feel old and grumpy, but a few jobs like grocery cart getter and soccer ref can pay for some living expenses at least. I chose not to work while taking arch classes because it was too hard but I had jobs much of my youth otherwise, and have very little debt and more freedom than most. These things ARE related.
By the way, I found this calculator that you can enter your loan data and expected salary and it can help you decide if it is overly burdensome or not. I tried to replicate your situation in the calculator, but it is so beyond reasonable I swear it laughed at me, which makes me think all these new sensationalized posts and some of the responses are written by someone who wants to make a joke of this profession on the www for all to see so it seems the whole profession is just full of posers and idiots with no brains, ala technically incompetent and we are all doomed. But if you are really considering that kind of debt load, you know the situation better and you should try it, here it is. http://apps.collegeboard.com/fincalc/sla.jsp
you again did not read my posts at all. I am not advising anyone to take on $260K in debt, I actually wrote the opposite, saying that seems like too much regardless of your career.
The original poster asked about people who took on debt and how they are dealing with it post-graduation. I responded with how i am dealing with it, though it is less than 6 figures.
The fact that you are now claiming i am advising him to take on that amount of debt is completely ignorant and wrong and shows you did not read my posts at all.
I shared my experience, as the original poster asked. If you dont agree with what i said, think i am lying, think i am someone else, fine, my post was not directed at you anyway.
My post will not hurt anyones career because I did not say that $260K in debt is a good move. Only you think that, so thankfully you have already graduated otherwise it sounds like you would have read my one post wrong, then took on that much debt. That would have been perfect it seems, because you could then blame someone else for your problems, or just have something else to whine about
"...When I decided I wanted to become an architect I knew I was going to have to borrow money to achieve this goal. What I did not realize was how emotionally and financially crippling this decision would become.
At the time of graduation, I owed about $150,000 in federal and private loans. Despite landing a job with a very famous architect, my monthly payments for student loans alone were over $1200 dollars a month which was nearly 50% of my net monthly income. You can imagine that would make living in Los Angeles extremely difficult/impossible. I am very fortunate to be able to live nearly rent-free in a family friend's home, but that also means I had to commute to and from work 3 hours every day (by car) for 2.5 years. Coupled with the extremely long work weeks (it is not uncommon for an architect to work 50 to 90 hours a week), this debt was tremendously taxing on my mind and body. I am horrified to say I scared myself more times than I would like to remember, dozing off while driving all the way home from work.
By the end of 2008, the architecture office I was working for cut their staff by a little more than 50%. Unfortunately I was caught in the last wave of that disaster. I have been able to pick up some short-term contract work, as I am a hard worker and have good references, but now I have no job security in the profession that I got myself into such debt for in the first place. My student loan debt has ballooned up to nearly $180,000 now, and I cannot pay what is required of these loans on unemployment insurance. That is clear, as I was barely getting by even as some of my loans were in deferment while fully employed.
Architecture has been the hardest hit by this economic crisis and does not have a good outlook for improvement in the next 5 or 10 years..."
I should have been more specific about the schools. UT, although a state school, is a bit more nationally known and has a program that is a little more progressive, broad and comprehensive than your average state school. In my case, the local state school really doesn't prepare their students for much more than a local state job. Add to that living in a state where very little ever changes and people tend to spend their entire life within a 50 mile radius (and NEVER leave that radius...EVER) usually results in what I described... the same staff working the same jobs year after year after year. But I see the same thing happen all over the city... at the grocery store I worked at in High School the same cashiers working the same lanes 10 years later... the same employees at Target... and on and on. Depressing really.
True, you are what you make of yourself...to a point. Because I lived somewhere that is so behind the times, going to an out-of-state progressive grad. school really opened my eyes to a world of architecture I didn't even know existed. Architecture history in Undergrad stopped at 1960 and the school largely operated like it was 1960. I would venture to say that over half the software I know (and use daily) is a direct product of the grad. school I went to. For me, it was a rewarding experience because it really gave me a much broader view of the profession, design...really everything.
At the end of my life, will my choice of graduate school matter? Probably not. But then again, will anything related to work, school, money, cars... No. So really, none of it matters. But then again, I am more of a journey person... destination is over-rated.
Just my opinion. When architecture as a "profession" actually joins the civilized world and starts paying people respectable pay, THEN it will be worth it.
It might be in your best interest to see what it takes to get residency in the various states you are looking at going to school. Deferring your admission for a year to gain residency could end up saving a lot of money. At my undergrad it was the difference between $2000 a semester and $8000 a semester.
Just looking around at various schools it seems very unlikely that someone would be able to graduate with a masters degree (assuming you were an out-of-state applicant) with less than $50k in debt after you factor on the various costs of living as well as all of the misc. expenses that come with getting an architecture degree... expenses with easily add up and we often forget. This is just for the masters degree! Imagine if you have undergrad debt as well!? Sure you can work during school, but how much does that really offset? About all I was ever able to manage was paying the rent. Unless you amass a significant savings between degrees, it's really unlikely you will graduate with anything less than $50k in debt.
A big problem right now is now the actual architecture schools (it's not like they control the tuition costs) but the universities that are not receiving as much state money as they are used to getting. State budget cuts affect everyone and the universities have not been immune. The easiest solution is to raise admission costs and once that option has been exhausted start raising or adding various fees. It's not uncommon for "special fees" to add several thousands of dollars to the basic tuition costs.
Unfortunately expenses and pay always seem to be on two unrelated scales.
I have this terrible reading comprehension problem.
Did you not write this?
"as long as you know what you are getting in to, and know the benefits of the school that will leave you with student loan debt, and you think it is worth it, i'd say go for it.
you can earn a decent living as an architect and the debt could be worth it if you take advantage of what the school offers
plus, if you are just going back to school now, a reasonable estimate would say that the economy will be in better shape when you graduate than it is now. so you arent entering this terrible market right now."
I mean, to me, and this is just my opinion, it sounds like you are saying this guy should go for the $260k debt.
I give up. You win.
I think the guy should do it too.
Sorry if I have ruined your day by not comprehending exactly what it is you are clearly communicating.
you did a good job of looking for my posts, but you again didnt bother to read the entire post
Here is the end of that one you decided to yet again, only take one part of:
"What are the benefits to GSAPP beyond the theory of the program? I think to take on that amount of debt compared to somewhere 1/4 of it, there needs to be an overwhelming amount of benefits to the school for you personally."
If you had bothered to read the ENTIRE post, you would see more of my actual point.
I will reiterate again, thank god you arent going into grad school right now as it seems you would read half of a single post on archinect and then blindly commit to $260K in loans. I have a feeling the original poster isnt that dumb though to base his entire decision on half a post here.
this time, when you go back searching for things to copy and paste, please read the entire post before doing so. Maybe you will get the point then
If you were to get that loan from a bank to open up a business or to invest it in something you'd have to show them in detail how you were planning to pay that loan back with numbers and figures.
Do you really have a clear plan of how to pay that money back? Or are you just "hoping" you'll get a good AND a stable job to hopefully pay it back? I mean 260,000$ would scare me shitless.It'd scare me shitless even if I took that amount of loan for law school. It is just too much of a risk.Do you have a back up plan if you can't get a job to pay that loan? Or what if you get laid off or get your hours cut? I see/hear Harvard MBAs unemployed or waiting tables.What will make you so different than them? As far as the job opportunities how strong and wide is you network? Can you market yourself well? Education is an investment so choose carefully and banks are clearly not to be messed with.
and it was nice to hear you admit that you dont actually read entire posts before responding
but back on topic
That is really the point, Parad0xx86. There needs to be an overwhelming reason to go to that school to make the 260k worth it. I think potentially there could be a reason to go there, as i doubt everyone who goes to that school gets a full ride or just has a rich uncle (though the majority of them might).
I'd say in a marketing way, or the connections that could be made at a high profile school might be a potential big reason to choose that school. But that is still a case where you need to do all the leg work and make it all happen, go out and meet everyone you possibly can, both at the school and through any connections you make.
It still sounds like a big risk, and one that wouldnt be for me.
on the other hand, do other people feel that there's a point where the sheer amount of debt just doesn't matter? i mean, after a point, it's so ginormous that it's essentially incomprehensible (at least, that's how it seems to me).
when i first started school, i was very aware of the fact that everything i bought, be it a loaf of bread or a new pair of shoes, i was going to be paying for it +6.8% interest for the next twenty years. when i took out my loans for second year, it just seemed to not matter anymore, i think because the amount exceeded what i could wrap my head around. while 260k seems pretty ridiculous to me, does it really make that much difference? you're essentially in just as much of a pickle as you'd be with half that in loans. just a much bigger pickle.
i think my personal cut off point would be between 60-70k. those numbers seem like i could pay them off. however, beyond that...
I have an undergrad archi degree from outside the U.S and my answer is based on how it is from where I am. Basing it from what I've been reading, it's really no different here in the U.S from where I am, so my answer is (just like some before me...)
...it depends on your career goal. If you would like to stay in the academe, then by all means, take that graduate degree in the best school you can afford and be prepared to pay for the debt years later w/o much "regret" because that will indeed help you in your academic career. But, if you intend to be a practicing architect, then YOU might find yourself questioning your decision years along the way because you might feel that what you learned from your "investment" isn't really helping you much in practice. Sure, shiny diplomas make your resume and cover letter look nice, but I doubt that it will actually make you a "better" candidate or later on employee than one without a shiny graduate degree. Theory is a great foundation, but experience is a much more stable one that will get you going throughout your career. What you learn in school is very different than what you learn at work.
You seem prepared to take and pay the debt later. So, by all means do it if you wish.
Personally, i would like to establish myself as an architect/designer out in the "real world" first by gaining as much experience as I can. Hopefully, in time, when I'm earning "enough", I can go back to school - - just because it's a life goal I have.
UTA is a very good school and shouldn't be regarded as simply some kind of glorified ITT Tech.
One thing to note is that, at some of the public universities, the faculty are essentially the up-and-coming stars that are going to be tomorrow's Ivy faculty -- you're just getting them when they are a) cheaper and b) actually present for studio (something you don't often get from the starchitect faculties.) Look at UCLA's faculty list. Look at OSU's. Kentucky, UTA, UIC... you will see the names of people that will be invited to lecture (and some already are) at your much-more-expensive private school 5 years from now.
There are some advantages to a public school education, besides simply cost.
***
On a separate note, continuing my thought from earlier... In the last few years I've started noticing a big increase in the number of times I catch myself thinking "...oh, but he/she doesn't have any student loan debt." This is in response to questions like:
-- "Wait, how can so-and-so be working at OMA? They don't pay their interns there!" ".....oh that's right, no student loan debt."
-- "Wait, how are you starting up your own business already?" "OH, that's right, no student loan debt."
-- "They got a house?? No more renting? How on earth did they manage to do that?" "OH THAT'S RIGHT, no student loan debt."
-- "Seriously, they are just taking a year off to backpack around the world?" "OH THAT'S RIGHT, NO STUDENT LOAN DEBT!"
Ugh, that really gets old when every single person you know has the freedom to quit working and focus on their art, or start up a company, or travel, or survive on a single salary so that one of them can stay home and raise kids... and you are in your 30s and still living in a crumbly 'vintage' rental flat, longing for even just a patch of garden to grow some tomatoes in.
I know exactly what you mean manta, those are the freedoms you can lose out on. I knew going into college that I would not be happy working a 9-5 (or 7-6 as architecture tends to be), so I didn't accumulate any debt, saved my measly earnings, and I started a business and just a few weeks ago, purchased another business.
It is all BY DESIGN, I planned it this way more or less. The best thing you can do with no debt, is take charge of your future.
I am with Strawbeary on this one as well. I just posted an overview of UT in the UT vs UVa thread. Please check it out if you want more input.
At UT I was able to be a GA or TA every semester I was there giving me in-state (better than half price) tuition plus stipend/hourly pay. Combined with a small savings before attending I still have money in the bank with only a tiny 8.5K subsidized gov. loan.
I as well planned this so that I would have the freedom to do whatever after graduation, not just work for the super corporate, super crappy firm in town that could pay me enough to afford my loans.
you can get into elite school and still suck... most of the time they won't let you go since they are taking your money...so case in point.... do what you can afford and don't get caught up in the debt system...
Strawberry, I applaud you, you made a very smart decision. I wish I had the brains to figure that out before I went to college. Now I am in over $100k in debt from student loans, pretty much the worst debt there is because it is not dischargable in bankruptcy, so there is no fresh start for people with student loan debt. We have to live with this debt and probably my children will... The interest rate is super high, and only by paying the interest each month for then next 30 years will not even make dent in the principal amount of my debt. I hate myself for getting the stupid arch degree that I don't even use, I can't even get a decent middle class job these days. This is pretty much the worst decision I ever made to go to college.
Once again, for those who think that BANKRUPTCY is plan B, please think again, STUDENT LOAN DEBT CANNOT BE DISCHARGED IN BANKRUPTCY (thanks to Bush). Student loans are a big scams, and colleges know it, they get money from student loan companies, and they raise their tuitions. Please try to avoid student loan debt as much as possible, its the closest thing to modern slavery!
I think this needs to be emphasized again: UT is so drastically different from Columbia, I'm having trouble understanding the decision at all.
I'm a current UT grad student. The faculty are fantastic, and almost all from ivies or UT itself. The standards are extremely high and the program is rigorous, it's just that the philosophy is different.
Plus, New York is great, to visit. Living there is hell, and I cannot imagine dealing with the MArch workload while struggling with NYC's logistical/financial demands. Austin is like a state of zen. I'm looking out my window right now watching the sun set over the hill country. Harlem? Forget it. Watch the romance burn off like fog.
trace, yes we should do coffee again soon! Whereabouts is your office anyways?
zen maker - I had a lot of coaching from my mom, she is pretty financially savvy, and she taught me how restraint can lead to success. -- What I think is important for someone in your situation is to focus on what you can do, and what you do have. I know the job market stinks right now, but in the bigger picture, you invested in your best asset, you! That's a good thing!
However, the network I thought I would gain from my school is not really there -- one thing you learn is that architecture networks are suprisingly region-specific... 100% of my job contacts, private commission contacts, etcetera has come from either arch contacts I made in the profession or from completely non-architectural networks. That means that my actual career (apart from the education which forms the basis of my career) has actually been more strongly influenced by my own ability to generate contacts than it has been at all by the school I went to.
when I was in undergrad my adviser told me to "apply to programs in places you want to work/live after you're finished." There are a few exceptions to this, though - however even at an internationally renowned program like the GSD, a large number of grads still end up sticking around Boston.
I'm in a similar situation (gsapp v. rice .. 92K v. 36K .. prestige v. prestiginess?) .. and even I'm getting sick of this discussion. for me it's going to come down to feel after visiting both open houses. I've been to gsapp, never rice, and right now my gut (and my mind) is telling me rice. it might just come down to my desire to live near my friends and family vs. my irrational fear of texas.
A quick question: if everyone is so unanimously against high debt, why does anyone attend a place like gsapp? is there a backlash in the profession to people coming out of these programs because they're viewed as being enamored with 'image'?
tv - there are plenty that can afford any price, there are those blinded by the "idea"
I thought I'd love LA after graduation - you know, snowboarding, mtn biking, the best/most progressive firms. I hated it. If you base any decision on a location, make sure you take the time to fully research it, like cost of living (Boston and NY ain't cheap), potential for growth, etc.
while on this topic I clicked onto strawbeary's ARE forum link, clicked to page 2 and apparently the domain name expired at that moment. anyone else see irony in that they were unable to pay their bills? geez...
skimmed over most of the previous responses to the original question.... but are you serious? Only someone with no real concept of money or goals in life beyond architecture would think that is reasonable. Good luck having a family, house, any sort of freedom, etc
Debt from education - worth it in practice?
What you need to know is that what looks like opportunity now, can be burdensome for many years to come. HOW burdensome is related to how much debt you have, your income, lifestlye, and the market among other things. Debt can certainly limit choices, as Donna and others have pointed out, and I know from experience. The further you start in the hole, the more it impacts other major decisions. You've heard about people being underwater on their houses, haven't you? Don't start your career from the bottom of the ocean.
Don't high school and college kids have jobs to help pay for their wants and wishes anymore? I feel old and grumpy, but a few jobs like grocery cart getter and soccer ref can pay for some living expenses at least. I chose not to work while taking arch classes because it was too hard but I had jobs much of my youth otherwise, and have very little debt and more freedom than most. These things ARE related.
By the way, I found this calculator that you can enter your loan data and expected salary and it can help you decide if it is overly burdensome or not. I tried to replicate your situation in the calculator, but it is so beyond reasonable I swear it laughed at me, which makes me think all these new sensationalized posts and some of the responses are written by someone who wants to make a joke of this profession on the www for all to see so it seems the whole profession is just full of posers and idiots with no brains, ala technically incompetent and we are all doomed. But if you are really considering that kind of debt load, you know the situation better and you should try it, here it is. http://apps.collegeboard.com/fincalc/sla.jsp
you again did not read my posts at all. I am not advising anyone to take on $260K in debt, I actually wrote the opposite, saying that seems like too much regardless of your career.
The original poster asked about people who took on debt and how they are dealing with it post-graduation. I responded with how i am dealing with it, though it is less than 6 figures.
The fact that you are now claiming i am advising him to take on that amount of debt is completely ignorant and wrong and shows you did not read my posts at all.
I shared my experience, as the original poster asked. If you dont agree with what i said, think i am lying, think i am someone else, fine, my post was not directed at you anyway.
My post will not hurt anyones career because I did not say that $260K in debt is a good move. Only you think that, so thankfully you have already graduated otherwise it sounds like you would have read my one post wrong, then took on that much debt. That would have been perfect it seems, because you could then blame someone else for your problems, or just have something else to whine about
DON'T DO IT IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE MONEY ALREADY ON HAND:
"ARCHITECTURE GRADUATE STUDENT REGRETS $180,000 In Debt":
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/24/180000-in-debt_n_473722.html
"...When I decided I wanted to become an architect I knew I was going to have to borrow money to achieve this goal. What I did not realize was how emotionally and financially crippling this decision would become.
At the time of graduation, I owed about $150,000 in federal and private loans. Despite landing a job with a very famous architect, my monthly payments for student loans alone were over $1200 dollars a month which was nearly 50% of my net monthly income. You can imagine that would make living in Los Angeles extremely difficult/impossible. I am very fortunate to be able to live nearly rent-free in a family friend's home, but that also means I had to commute to and from work 3 hours every day (by car) for 2.5 years. Coupled with the extremely long work weeks (it is not uncommon for an architect to work 50 to 90 hours a week), this debt was tremendously taxing on my mind and body. I am horrified to say I scared myself more times than I would like to remember, dozing off while driving all the way home from work.
By the end of 2008, the architecture office I was working for cut their staff by a little more than 50%. Unfortunately I was caught in the last wave of that disaster. I have been able to pick up some short-term contract work, as I am a hard worker and have good references, but now I have no job security in the profession that I got myself into such debt for in the first place. My student loan debt has ballooned up to nearly $180,000 now, and I cannot pay what is required of these loans on unemployment insurance. That is clear, as I was barely getting by even as some of my loans were in deferment while fully employed.
Architecture has been the hardest hit by this economic crisis and does not have a good outlook for improvement in the next 5 or 10 years..."
Also, a very useful thread:
http://www.areforum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=190663&highlight=student+loan%2C+debt+payments
I should have been more specific about the schools. UT, although a state school, is a bit more nationally known and has a program that is a little more progressive, broad and comprehensive than your average state school. In my case, the local state school really doesn't prepare their students for much more than a local state job. Add to that living in a state where very little ever changes and people tend to spend their entire life within a 50 mile radius (and NEVER leave that radius...EVER) usually results in what I described... the same staff working the same jobs year after year after year. But I see the same thing happen all over the city... at the grocery store I worked at in High School the same cashiers working the same lanes 10 years later... the same employees at Target... and on and on. Depressing really.
True, you are what you make of yourself...to a point. Because I lived somewhere that is so behind the times, going to an out-of-state progressive grad. school really opened my eyes to a world of architecture I didn't even know existed. Architecture history in Undergrad stopped at 1960 and the school largely operated like it was 1960. I would venture to say that over half the software I know (and use daily) is a direct product of the grad. school I went to. For me, it was a rewarding experience because it really gave me a much broader view of the profession, design...really everything.
At the end of my life, will my choice of graduate school matter? Probably not. But then again, will anything related to work, school, money, cars... No. So really, none of it matters. But then again, I am more of a journey person... destination is over-rated.
Do not take on debt!
If you do take on debt, then make sure someone else is paying for it.
that's my favorite kind of debt...the kind someone else pays for!
No it's not worth it.
Just my opinion. When architecture as a "profession" actually joins the civilized world and starts paying people respectable pay, THEN it will be worth it.
It might be in your best interest to see what it takes to get residency in the various states you are looking at going to school. Deferring your admission for a year to gain residency could end up saving a lot of money. At my undergrad it was the difference between $2000 a semester and $8000 a semester.
Just looking around at various schools it seems very unlikely that someone would be able to graduate with a masters degree (assuming you were an out-of-state applicant) with less than $50k in debt after you factor on the various costs of living as well as all of the misc. expenses that come with getting an architecture degree... expenses with easily add up and we often forget. This is just for the masters degree! Imagine if you have undergrad debt as well!? Sure you can work during school, but how much does that really offset? About all I was ever able to manage was paying the rent. Unless you amass a significant savings between degrees, it's really unlikely you will graduate with anything less than $50k in debt.
A big problem right now is now the actual architecture schools (it's not like they control the tuition costs) but the universities that are not receiving as much state money as they are used to getting. State budget cuts affect everyone and the universities have not been immune. The easiest solution is to raise admission costs and once that option has been exhausted start raising or adding various fees. It's not uncommon for "special fees" to add several thousands of dollars to the basic tuition costs.
Unfortunately expenses and pay always seem to be on two unrelated scales.
marmkid,
I have this terrible reading comprehension problem.
Did you not write this?
"as long as you know what you are getting in to, and know the benefits of the school that will leave you with student loan debt, and you think it is worth it, i'd say go for it.
you can earn a decent living as an architect and the debt could be worth it if you take advantage of what the school offers
plus, if you are just going back to school now, a reasonable estimate would say that the economy will be in better shape when you graduate than it is now. so you arent entering this terrible market right now."
I mean, to me, and this is just my opinion, it sounds like you are saying this guy should go for the $260k debt.
I give up. You win.
I think the guy should do it too.
Sorry if I have ruined your day by not comprehending exactly what it is you are clearly communicating.
you did a good job of looking for my posts, but you again didnt bother to read the entire post
Here is the end of that one you decided to yet again, only take one part of:
"What are the benefits to GSAPP beyond the theory of the program? I think to take on that amount of debt compared to somewhere 1/4 of it, there needs to be an overwhelming amount of benefits to the school for you personally."
If you had bothered to read the ENTIRE post, you would see more of my actual point.
I will reiterate again, thank god you arent going into grad school right now as it seems you would read half of a single post on archinect and then blindly commit to $260K in loans. I have a feeling the original poster isnt that dumb though to base his entire decision on half a post here.
this time, when you go back searching for things to copy and paste, please read the entire post before doing so. Maybe you will get the point then
I stopped at reiterate.
You win.
the fact that you care about "winning" on an internet forum tells me all i need to know
winner winner chicken dinner!
If you were to get that loan from a bank to open up a business or to invest it in something you'd have to show them in detail how you were planning to pay that loan back with numbers and figures.
Do you really have a clear plan of how to pay that money back? Or are you just "hoping" you'll get a good AND a stable job to hopefully pay it back? I mean 260,000$ would scare me shitless.It'd scare me shitless even if I took that amount of loan for law school. It is just too much of a risk.Do you have a back up plan if you can't get a job to pay that loan? Or what if you get laid off or get your hours cut? I see/hear Harvard MBAs unemployed or waiting tables.What will make you so different than them? As far as the job opportunities how strong and wide is you network? Can you market yourself well? Education is an investment so choose carefully and banks are clearly not to be messed with.
and it was nice to hear you admit that you dont actually read entire posts before responding
but back on topic
That is really the point, Parad0xx86. There needs to be an overwhelming reason to go to that school to make the 260k worth it. I think potentially there could be a reason to go there, as i doubt everyone who goes to that school gets a full ride or just has a rich uncle (though the majority of them might).
I'd say in a marketing way, or the connections that could be made at a high profile school might be a potential big reason to choose that school. But that is still a case where you need to do all the leg work and make it all happen, go out and meet everyone you possibly can, both at the school and through any connections you make.
It still sounds like a big risk, and one that wouldnt be for me.
Interesting debate...So how much debt is actually justifiable to go through an architectural grad school? 50K? 100k? 150k?
whatever happened to the rule that you should only take on as much debt as your out of school salary would be?
so what would that be now 35k, 40k?
just grad school? I wouldnt go nearly that high unless you had no debt from undergrad.
less than 100k seems ok given tuition these days, but i would say that would have to be combined undegrad and grad
any more than that, and as an architect, it will be tough to pay back, or just take a while
on the other hand, do other people feel that there's a point where the sheer amount of debt just doesn't matter? i mean, after a point, it's so ginormous that it's essentially incomprehensible (at least, that's how it seems to me).
when i first started school, i was very aware of the fact that everything i bought, be it a loaf of bread or a new pair of shoes, i was going to be paying for it +6.8% interest for the next twenty years. when i took out my loans for second year, it just seemed to not matter anymore, i think because the amount exceeded what i could wrap my head around. while 260k seems pretty ridiculous to me, does it really make that much difference? you're essentially in just as much of a pickle as you'd be with half that in loans. just a much bigger pickle.
i think my personal cut off point would be between 60-70k. those numbers seem like i could pay them off. however, beyond that...
I have an undergrad archi degree from outside the U.S and my answer is based on how it is from where I am. Basing it from what I've been reading, it's really no different here in the U.S from where I am, so my answer is (just like some before me...)
...it depends on your career goal. If you would like to stay in the academe, then by all means, take that graduate degree in the best school you can afford and be prepared to pay for the debt years later w/o much "regret" because that will indeed help you in your academic career. But, if you intend to be a practicing architect, then YOU might find yourself questioning your decision years along the way because you might feel that what you learned from your "investment" isn't really helping you much in practice. Sure, shiny diplomas make your resume and cover letter look nice, but I doubt that it will actually make you a "better" candidate or later on employee than one without a shiny graduate degree. Theory is a great foundation, but experience is a much more stable one that will get you going throughout your career. What you learn in school is very different than what you learn at work.
You seem prepared to take and pay the debt later. So, by all means do it if you wish.
Personally, i would like to establish myself as an architect/designer out in the "real world" first by gaining as much experience as I can. Hopefully, in time, when I'm earning "enough", I can go back to school - - just because it's a life goal I have.
UTA is a very good school and shouldn't be regarded as simply some kind of glorified ITT Tech.
One thing to note is that, at some of the public universities, the faculty are essentially the up-and-coming stars that are going to be tomorrow's Ivy faculty -- you're just getting them when they are a) cheaper and b) actually present for studio (something you don't often get from the starchitect faculties.) Look at UCLA's faculty list. Look at OSU's. Kentucky, UTA, UIC... you will see the names of people that will be invited to lecture (and some already are) at your much-more-expensive private school 5 years from now.
There are some advantages to a public school education, besides simply cost.
***
On a separate note, continuing my thought from earlier... In the last few years I've started noticing a big increase in the number of times I catch myself thinking "...oh, but he/she doesn't have any student loan debt." This is in response to questions like:
-- "Wait, how can so-and-so be working at OMA? They don't pay their interns there!" ".....oh that's right, no student loan debt."
-- "Wait, how are you starting up your own business already?" "OH, that's right, no student loan debt."
-- "They got a house?? No more renting? How on earth did they manage to do that?" "OH THAT'S RIGHT, no student loan debt."
-- "Seriously, they are just taking a year off to backpack around the world?" "OH THAT'S RIGHT, NO STUDENT LOAN DEBT!"
Ugh, that really gets old when every single person you know has the freedom to quit working and focus on their art, or start up a company, or travel, or survive on a single salary so that one of them can stay home and raise kids... and you are in your 30s and still living in a crumbly 'vintage' rental flat, longing for even just a patch of garden to grow some tomatoes in.
I know exactly what you mean manta, those are the freedoms you can lose out on. I knew going into college that I would not be happy working a 9-5 (or 7-6 as architecture tends to be), so I didn't accumulate any debt, saved my measly earnings, and I started a business and just a few weeks ago, purchased another business.
It is all BY DESIGN, I planned it this way more or less. The best thing you can do with no debt, is take charge of your future.
"The best thing you can do with no debt, is take charge of your future"
Amen to that. Best advice I've ever read on Archinect
Congratulations Strawbeary!! Glad to hear things are working out well.
Coffee sometime?
I am with Strawbeary on this one as well. I just posted an overview of UT in the UT vs UVa thread. Please check it out if you want more input.
At UT I was able to be a GA or TA every semester I was there giving me in-state (better than half price) tuition plus stipend/hourly pay. Combined with a small savings before attending I still have money in the bank with only a tiny 8.5K subsidized gov. loan.
I as well planned this so that I would have the freedom to do whatever after graduation, not just work for the super corporate, super crappy firm in town that could pay me enough to afford my loans.
Which super corporate, super crappy offices are hiring? Inquiring minds want to know!
Sorry, that was my thought process in 2007. If they were hiring I'd be sitting in the lobby right next to you waiting for an interview.
you can get into elite school and still suck... most of the time they won't let you go since they are taking your money...so case in point.... do what you can afford and don't get caught up in the debt system...
Strawberry, I applaud you, you made a very smart decision. I wish I had the brains to figure that out before I went to college. Now I am in over $100k in debt from student loans, pretty much the worst debt there is because it is not dischargable in bankruptcy, so there is no fresh start for people with student loan debt. We have to live with this debt and probably my children will... The interest rate is super high, and only by paying the interest each month for then next 30 years will not even make dent in the principal amount of my debt. I hate myself for getting the stupid arch degree that I don't even use, I can't even get a decent middle class job these days. This is pretty much the worst decision I ever made to go to college.
Once again, for those who think that BANKRUPTCY is plan B, please think again, STUDENT LOAN DEBT CANNOT BE DISCHARGED IN BANKRUPTCY (thanks to Bush). Student loans are a big scams, and colleges know it, they get money from student loan companies, and they raise their tuitions. Please try to avoid student loan debt as much as possible, its the closest thing to modern slavery!
I think this needs to be emphasized again: UT is so drastically different from Columbia, I'm having trouble understanding the decision at all.
I'm a current UT grad student. The faculty are fantastic, and almost all from ivies or UT itself. The standards are extremely high and the program is rigorous, it's just that the philosophy is different.
Plus, New York is great, to visit. Living there is hell, and I cannot imagine dealing with the MArch workload while struggling with NYC's logistical/financial demands. Austin is like a state of zen. I'm looking out my window right now watching the sun set over the hill country. Harlem? Forget it. Watch the romance burn off like fog.
trace, yes we should do coffee again soon! Whereabouts is your office anyways?
zen maker - I had a lot of coaching from my mom, she is pretty financially savvy, and she taught me how restraint can lead to success. -- What I think is important for someone in your situation is to focus on what you can do, and what you do have. I know the job market stinks right now, but in the bigger picture, you invested in your best asset, you! That's a good thing!
"restraint can lead to success"
that is one wise mother. Excellent. If only more mother's taught such truths as this.
when I was in undergrad my adviser told me to "apply to programs in places you want to work/live after you're finished." There are a few exceptions to this, though - however even at an internationally renowned program like the GSD, a large number of grads still end up sticking around Boston.
I'm in a similar situation (gsapp v. rice .. 92K v. 36K .. prestige v. prestiginess?) .. and even I'm getting sick of this discussion. for me it's going to come down to feel after visiting both open houses. I've been to gsapp, never rice, and right now my gut (and my mind) is telling me rice. it might just come down to my desire to live near my friends and family vs. my irrational fear of texas.
A quick question: if everyone is so unanimously against high debt, why does anyone attend a place like gsapp? is there a backlash in the profession to people coming out of these programs because they're viewed as being enamored with 'image'?
I think if you polled the income bracket of students there, you might have some insight.
fearing Texas is irrational??
tv - there are plenty that can afford any price, there are those blinded by the "idea"
I thought I'd love LA after graduation - you know, snowboarding, mtn biking, the best/most progressive firms. I hated it. If you base any decision on a location, make sure you take the time to fully research it, like cost of living (Boston and NY ain't cheap), potential for growth, etc.
while on this topic I clicked onto strawbeary's ARE forum link, clicked to page 2 and apparently the domain name expired at that moment. anyone else see irony in that they were unable to pay their bills? geez...
Caryatid15, did you go to RMIT?
a 260k loan for an MArch is completely recockulus.
in ANY economy.
skimmed over most of the previous responses to the original question.... but are you serious? Only someone with no real concept of money or goals in life beyond architecture would think that is reasonable. Good luck having a family, house, any sort of freedom, etc
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