that's cool - I was looking at some wendell burnette work also.

I love the texture of those walls. Can't help but think about the pain it would be to dust them though.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/4da791e3d243686e509363718fb3ae67/tenor.gif?itemid=9816982

https://www.instagram.com/terriblefloorplans/

"People who bought a giant SUV and moved out to the boonies are going to get screwed."

Probably same/similar demographic to those most screwed by the last recession, no? Big cars (on sub-prime loan) likely correlate with big houses (on sub-prime loan). Luckily our office appears to have enough worked locked in that we should be able to ride out a dip if it appears.

And I always have that parachute to move back to the homeland if need be...

Can't imagine how those who leased a $40k & more SUV at 3-4% on 5+ year deals will feel...

Quite happy with my $2.50 subway rides ...

Lucky.... it's like 3.40 here. wait, with the exchange (insert calculating noises) that's the same thing. My subway (LRT) is coming tho...

hopefully you're also mid-way through a bottle of wine.

Hang in there, Donna...

I'm trying to organize an outing to a petting zoo tomorrow for some toddlers. You can come if you want.

I hope you are getting paid extremely well, enough to offset the booze and massage you will need afterwards at least.

I'm working today, too, Donna, so don't feel alone. The wine was finished a while ago... now I'm down to shots of mouthwash =o\

shit man, if I was close I'd stop by with at least a bottle of whiskey for you.

Spring bidding season. Everyone's churning out work.

Exactly. No time.

Permit submission made... eugh, busy here too. Looking at a quiet afternoon now.

Our entire office seemed to accidentally get on "end of March" deadlines not realizing half of us and our consultants were gone for spring break. This week is slightly calmer.

and boom, one more permit submission (although much smaller than the first) done.

I think that's right. Hence his attempt to start his own catch-all thread. Don't know if anything's changed since then.

Ricky lost TC posting privileges... apparently that's a power of the big green head.

So, there's a limit on TC posts exceeding ten thousand words each?  Good to know.

So TC is now a safe place, at least until the libertarians start posting here.

Socialists gotta eat.

If they are getting away with it, don't expect anything to change.

I think I work at most 2 weekends per year...and typically, only the Saturday morning. Nothing is so important that it can't wait t'il Monday.

I sent out an email at 10pm one evening and the client called my boss concerned that the project didn’t have enough staff.

It was interesting with that client - they’d be on our case if we sent anything out on weekends or after 7pm. It look to them that our time management and organization skills were suspect.

axon, I have a client that is similar. If we send - what is in there opinion - too many people on site, they get concerned that we are "wasting resources." (Their words.) The point for us to send a lot of people (which is generally 5 max) is to gather a lot of information quickly with different teams doing different tasks.

what's the point of sending out an email at 10 pm? or submitting drawings on a weekend? it really is either a horrible time management approach or you honestly think people live in their offices. Only times I've worked weekends or nights were for competitions, agreed with management to be outside normal work hours.

I frequently send out stuff around 2, 3 o'clock in the morning on a Sunday :|

We all get it here, of course.

...just fell off the drawing board.

I dug our a roll of canary-yellow trace last night. Had a craving, could not help myself.

mmmmmm... love that yellow. Anything sketched on it is just... better somehow.

As long as you're not using it to provide services, then I wouldn't worry about it.

Three snaps in a state of (wr) grace, Uthene!

sticky

So sorry to hear that. Shitty behavior is not confined to Paradise, it is endemic to society. This is especially difficult for ethical people who care about what they do. Fire the clients if you have to, the damage to you isn't worth it. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

I think your first problem was working with vampires. Hopefully they turn not to be the weak teenage angst and sprinkles-filled type. Those are boring. Now, this kind would make far more interesting meetings as long as he does not bring along his friend Tom:

Ugh, archi-dude, that reminds me so much of what one of my best professors and mentors told me: Don't get good at what you don't like doing because inevitably you'll end up doing more of it. I have lots more to say on this topic but pressed for time....

Yup, been there. You just end up being Executive Vice President of Cleaning up Other People's Shit. It can, I suppose, make you a little more indispensable but it's a shitty way to run an office.

A colleague once related a story to me about his first job. A senior staffer pulled him aside and told him that "If you don't want to spend your career being a CAD operator, you need to really FUCK IT UP. I don't mean do a bad job or make a mistake; you really need to FUCK SHIT UP."

EXPLODE ALL THE HATCHES!

It took me over 20 years to finally find a firm that doesn't run like that. My favorite was always when they only gave me about a week to try unfucking the project before it went out to bid, then I got to do the CA on the only-partially-unfucked project. Good times.

And we wonder why this profession is weak and undercompensated.

This was one of the underlying reasons for my blog post, "Want to be an Architect?; Don't Learn Revit" ... https://archinect.com/arch-ellipsis/want-to-be-an-architect-don-t-learn-revit ... though I didn't really focus on it. At the time, I could quickly see myself as getting really good at Revit and constantly being the one to clean up other's mistakes. Now I never use Revit, and I'm really good at other things ... but I still need to clean up others' mistakes there. So yeah, don't be good at anything is the lesson to learn from this.

I figured out how to suck at stuff when I had to answer the phone. Drop a few important calls and you don't have to do it anymore.

I'll second that.

fourth and fifth that

I've never seen a different flair pen tip

Sharpie rules. Let 'em know your mean business. 

No fountain pen? weak study.

Fountain pens are biased against lefties. I despise them.

^just write with your right hand. Problem solved.

Fountain pen in my pocket at all times, but I've never gotten the knack of sketching with it.

I suppose I could also do a comparison between traditional tech. pens (love 'em, but disposables are convenient), Copic SP (seemed like a good idea, but not thrilled). Microns (used 'em for years, but quality is slipping badly), and other disposable fineliners (haven't found one to replace Microns yet).

good for you! I'm sure given your reputation in your locale that you could walk into any number of architecture, builder, or development firms and have a job same day.

I can't give you a five high enough.

Don't call yourself 'liberty ball' if you don't want to be used as a bonus pinball piece gah! On a more serious note, I noticed in the last few years that accomplished women in architecture that I admire on a professional level very much, have been getting a total garbage treatment from both contractors and owners. Maybe we hit a peak construction again. There is too much work and not enough qualified parties to take it on. GCs taking on major work have barely any experience with related work. "uhh what's a submittal?" And they have shit attitude to go with it. They will take it out on women (easy target) and even mock them for being wasteful and out of touch for daring to maintain certain procedural requirements. Also, lots of inexperienced owners/developers looking to cut all corners because they don't understand the scope really well. Industry needs a purge. Come on Trumplet, bring on a recession! You can do it in 99 tweets.

congratulations! it's feels good to stand up for yourself. projects with such toxic relationships rarely are worth participating in.

Zero tolerance policy for bullshit. Next time don't walk out, call them on it then and there. Set an example. The trick is to not lose your cool. Take a deep breath or two, stay calm, and set it straight.

Congrats for standing up for yourself, but should've called them out before walking out!

I've noticed an uptick in needing to write emails including standards from ASTM as called for in the specs just to get people to do their jobs. I had a Sherwin Williams rep doing some paint adhesion tests just the other day. Paint peeled right off, the whole thing, and he stood their telling the contractor, owner, and myself that it didn't constitute a failure. I sat through his talk, and then asked who's SW rep is he... oh, the painters? ok, when can we get a real rep in here. He and the painter weren't too pleased when I conducted the rest of the meeting like they weren't even in the room.

I occasionally get calls on my desk phone. It definitely pisses me off, but not as much as when I ask how much they are offering and they quote me a number below my current salary.

" This seems unbelievably inappropriate - is that just me who thinks this?"

So, the office manager knows recruiters are after you, use it to your advantage ;-)

I wont deny that its not a bad thing for the idea to be out there, but certainly not what i'd want to be an overt thing.

I got a call at my desk from a recruiter just a week or so ago. I was extremely terse with him; he said "I can imagine this is a bad time for you to discuss your options." Then why did you call me at work? This is after he had already sent me 2 messages via linkedin and an email. Give it a rest! I work in a specific specialty so of course 99% of the jobs that recruiters contact me about are completely unrelated to what I do, making it doubly frustrating. Do others get this too?

I've gotten a few calls to my extension. One time the recruiter called me, then following my terse rejection (and, from what I remember some sort of snarky "does this ever work" comment), the same recruiter called the other arch sitting next to me.

Yeah I get tons of these lately. They're annoying, but in the past they've also been a very reliable harbinger of the state of the economy (the calls stopped roughly 8 months before each of the last two recessions was widely labeled as such.) I really don't think you need to worry about it looking bad to your employer - surely your employer knows how recruiters operate. I can say from experience that the same ones calling you are most likely also trying to recruit your employer.

Fortunately I dont really think theres any substantial/real risk to me here, I work for a good company. Im more venting at the sheer brashness of a recruiter who would do that. I already have a pretty bad opinion of recruiters generally, so when the messages elevate from spam-at-best to conspicuous or ostentatious, I have to wonder where the line of decency ends.

The average subtlety of recruiters, lacking though it is, seems to me to have actually improved in these last 2 decades, because at least some of them have adopted email and social media. The phone calls at work used to be much worse. I recall in my first jobs in the 90s that the recruiters would all try calling all of us at lunchtime when they thought the regular office managers might be out of the office and it would ring straight to our desks, or hoping they'd get the fill-in phone answering person who wasn't as adept at detecting them before they put them through to us.  While it would be really inappropriate for another firm to call you on your work phone or send postcards blatantly trying to lure you away from your current job, third-party recruiters don't follow the same etiquette rules - they've always operated as if it's just a given that they'll be conspicuous.

How bad does a firm have to be to rely on recruiters to find employees? The whole practice is terrible. One of the recruiters I hear from was on a reality TV show that I used to watch.... not exactly someone I would want to do "talent seeking". I think the practice should be dropped.

i once gave a flippant salary requirement to a cold call recruiter which was well above what i made. he followed up and that actually led to a different job with a pretty good raise a few months later. we have kept in touch and he actually knows quite a bit of information about the local market and happenings at the major firms. sometimes it's worth talking to recruiters even if you have no plans to leave. plans change and good recruiters can be a good resource on the market.

Tintt, I agree. Recruiters have a place for other industries that focus on getting bums in seats, where personality is less important. But architecture requires a more holistic understanding of how the individual will integrate into the firm if either party wants any success, so in that respect I dont think recruiters really have much of a role to play. Ive interviewed at firms where I walked out knowing that even if an offer was coming, it was not somewhere I could join. And I'm certain interviews that I thought went really well never had an offer coming because of similar thoughts on the employers part.

I've wondered sometimes if you could flip the recruiter model and instead of employers hiring recruiters, we (employees) should be hiring agents to go out and find the best fit for us. But then I remember that we don't make squat and who would be able to afford an agent when some can't even afford their student loan payment.

Recruiters charge 25% of the agreed upon salary as their cut. That's steep considering how little they do. Remind me of Real Estate Agents.

^ ^ This comes from the employers side though, not the employee's side, if i'm not mistaken? (making it additional cost to the employer, not a cut from the worker's check)

thatsthat, I am in a similar position as you, working in a specific industry with only a handful of local firms working in it. It’s even worse when they actually discuss the potential job as it is apparent they are just spamming people. My most recent was about how I’m a great fit leading large healthcare projects. I guess because I’ve been to the doctor I’m now highly qualified to design hospitals.

The only difference between this practice and health insurance is that that we are not required by law to pay recruiters to handle all employment issues. But that too will be "fixed" in time.

I got a solicitation for a heathcare architect position with promises of a large salary and profit-sharing. I do have some experience in healthcare but not much. Makes you wonder what they are doing. I did talk to another recruiter and told her what I was thinking for and she said that's nice but that doesn't exist (part-time).

You guys are overthinking this. Recruiters exist in order to poach people. The best candidate for the position is already happily employed elsewhere and not even looking at job boards. People who are actively looking are second tier just based on risk profile alone. People who are unemployed and looking are like 6th tier.

Rusty!, I get the idea of poaching but I would think that part of being top tier talent is more realistically understanding one’s experience and expertise.

I will make the lawyers do CA.

the Lawyers would know revit.

Didn't the secretary design the swoosh? Neville Brody made Just Do It.

Sorry to hear you've been ill. Heal fast -

enjoy the time off. Some times I think my best days are when I get to stay home in bed :)

Husband has been ill the last few days and I'm emotionally exhausted anyway so we've spent most of this weekend bingeing the Better Call Saul season we never watched. It's heaven.

Now you made me want Pop Tarts. I don't think I've had one in 10 years - I kind of assumed they were extinct by now, like Boo-Berry, or those assortments of tiny boxes of cereal, where everybody wanted the Cocoa Puffs, and nobody would eat the Sugar Smacks with the frog in the hat and blue sneakers.

Toasted or raw?

sugar smacks are awesome!

Sneaky I prefer toasted and even put butter on them which is ludicrously indulgent but when I'm working I just eat them raw. And I also love Sugar Smacks but didn't as a kid!

I like it. They make excellent trail food, too.

I ended a nearly 20 year abstinence from poptarts about a month ago. Jumbo pack blueberry.

Unfrosted blueberry are a pain in the ass to find. Not really sure why. Unfrosted strawberry is everywhere. Brown Sugar Cinnamon is where the action is.

no love for frosted raspberry?

i love frosted raspberry. they were in my studio kit right along with the nice staedtler pens

INGREDIENTS: , ENRICHED FLOUR (, WHEAT FLOUR, NIACIN, REDUCED IRON, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID) , CORN SYRUP, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, DEXTROSE, SOYBEAN OIL, PALM OIL, TBHQ, SUGAR, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: , CRACKER MEAL, WHEAT STARCH, SALT, DRIED STRAWBERRIES, DRIED PEARS, DRIED APPLES, CORNSTARCH, LEAVENING (, BAKING SODA, SODIUM ACID PYROPHOSPHATE, MONOCALCIUM PHOSPHATE) , CITRIC ACID, CORN CEREAL, GELATIN, PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED SOYBEAN OIL, CARAMEL COLOR, MODIFIED CORN STARCH, SOY LECITHIN, XANTHAN GUM, MODIFIED WHEAT STARCH, TRICALCIUM PHOSPHATE, COLOR ADDED, TURMERIC COLOR, VITAMIN A PALMITATE, RED #40, NIACINAMIDE, REDUCED IRON, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, YELLOW #6, RIBOFLAVIN, THIAMIN HYDROCHLORIDE, FOLIC ACID, BLUE #1

Putting any item into a toaster that has a frosted exterior just seems like a terrible idea. I dont understand how it doesn't just burst into flames...

Oh, Non, that gif is perfect and throws me back to the fun old days on Archinect!

bench, it's the added flame retardant.

Donna, it's not yet been 4hrs so I'm not calling the doctor... but considering it.

Not an ultra runner (yet) but I'll testify that they are indeed good running fuel. Poptarts and Nutrigrain bars are my go to.

Personally a fan of the peanut/date bars from Trader Joes for long workouts (cycling). They don't melt in your pocket!

I’m definitely not an ultra runner - I typically don’t even do long enough runs to require fueling during the run. But I do like pop tarts. Especially the cinnamon brown sugar.

how do you carry, then serve and eat, the mashed potatoes while runn ing?

They make special camelbacks designed for mashed potatoes. Or they should.

For ultras there are aid stations that have all kinds of food. put mashed potatoes into reusable toddler food pouches and carry it on your trail running vest. Some people like to make mashed potato burritos.

Think I missed this, what is the thread ?

Is this the thread you're referring to? https://archinect.com/features/article/150132758/a-black-architecture-education-experience

yes

I just call them Firefighters.

is there such a thing? Usually we do FP as design-build.

you mean the sprinkler guys? On larger projects where we have important public spaces, I demand to review the sprinkler shop drawings and will very clearly indicate where I need heads located. Nothing worse than having nice finished ceiling and bulkheads then some wanker puts in a few off-center heads.

sure, "design-build", but do they really design anything? they can't read plans to start with, and make a unbelievable fuss over a couple of soffits, "how are you going to frame this?" " is this 11 3/4" below the ceiling or 12 1/8?"

No they don't, but I find it easier to review shop drawing (making changes and corrections) and make on-the-fly changes in "design-build" projects than traditional type of sub relationships.

Sprinklers. Ugh.

I hate people dying in unnecessary and easily prevented fires...

totally agree, then when a code official reviews, and points to a deficiency, or code issue in their design, the FP folks decide not to send it on to the architect. Ooops. Turns out they don't know the code like they thought, and cost the projects $50k, plus they don't get held accountable.

I like how reviewing the location of heads relative to architectural elements means you are more intelligent than the specialists engineering a fire suppression system.

a chimp with autocad can do the work better than a supression "engineer".

Really? You can size mains and branches correctly, know required heights and spreads for different ceiling systems coupled with occupancies? I’d say that’s a lot harder than doing a layout with the correct egress and ADA bathrooms which is essentially the limits of architectural responsibilities in DB. Of course more and architects are deferring Accessibility code to specialists now as well.

how does location of heads relate to what you just wrote? i'll tell you after my last experience, the next time a fire suppression specialist decides they know more about what the code official is stating in the review than i do, i make sure they pay the full cost of the fix. after digging into nfpa 13 and 13r, i'm abundantly more educated on fixture locations, and architecture. as for sizing, give me a week or two, and i'll figure that out too. oh, and by the by, i do all my ada, code analysis, and figure out how to make assemblies work, after fire suppression engineers fuck it up.

I was poking fun at NS’s comment. But I see he isn’t the only all knowing architect here.

poke fun at NS for reviewing the shops? The architect should review the shops and where they don't meet design intent (because the sprinkler people don't care about design intent, that's not their job), the architect makes them fix it.

Hey, so those 15 email notifications we'rent all for nothing then.

Archi, I've more than once had to step in and save the day for my FP engineers. I'm the one who needs to know where everybody else is putting their shit in addition to my own. I can't expect the FP guys & galls to know the what is a full-height wall vs a ceiling feature vs an atrium vs etc. Same thing with main runs and risers. If you can't think these things through, the FP will just do what's easiest for them, at best. Not "all knowing arch" stuff at all.

^this. they don't know a fucking thing about architecture, and don't ask a god damned thing.

^indeed. I have a small renovation job where the client insists on that all bidders use the same FP company because only redacted does not fuck up every time the FP needs to be touched.

Design a post and beam ceiling. Design a coffered ceiling. Now don't research the sprinkler obstruction rules. Don't worry, the sprinklers are design build. Now enjoy unemployment when your boss sees the result. Therefore: Sprinklers. Ugh.

update: this guys are good, received the first draft , and they drew on top of my lighting plan! easy redlines.

hey Pete, have all your bosses such a thin skin? unemployed because of a couple of sprinkler heads? that's a bit harsh....

Errata, that should be floody mc flood face.

You should be okay for the next 2000 years or so, lucky you!

Is that how it works? Maybe I should buy some property on the river bank then. Looks like people will be desperate to sell next week.

Thousand day floods, not thousand year.

I'm fine. Turns out the light housing is leaking and rain water pooled inside the light socket. So nice corrosion on the bulb bottom tho. I should probably go shut the power to it... oh well. I'm starting to get a decent project pile now and they all look like early summer deadlines. Going to be a busy may-june but right now, lots of frustration as we wait for all pieces to fall together.

Long walk is a great story. Hope your current slog ends differently.

There is a trick to this. Have both SS and PLAM in project, and when they say making it all PLAM is not going to save you any money, then you propose all of it to be SS. I wish I was kidding.

In the last restaurant I did, the client said granite table tops were too expensive. I sourced them for less than crappy laminate tops with banded aluminum edging.

Rusty!'s trick may work during estimating, but then when the GMP comes back millions over budget and the contractor starts a VE list ... suddenly there is a lot of money to be saved by making them all PLAM. It's all talk until the sub has actually signed and that's when it gets real. BTW, this is why IPD is such a mess.

I had a project like that where the GMP came in more than 50% over the 50% CD estimate - I was very, very happy the estimate had been done by the contractor, not by me. (FWIW, the owner accepted the higher cost without batting an eye, then went back to their donors. I really miss working with the Catholic Church before the sex abuse scandals started...)

I'm sorry you all have to deal with budgets.

Before the scandals starter? sex-abuse in the church is as old as the church itself.

For one repeat client, I typically always spec stainless-steel handrails for everything knowing that it'll be VE. It's low-hanging fruit and makes us look like we're able to make concessions. Fine, we can use painted steel pipe in the exit stairs but we'll keep SST in the lobbies. Everyone is happy.

NS, fair enough - before they started having to pay out all the settlements, when they were still made of money. Want a new 200-bed skilled nursing facility? No problem, here's a check.

"the GMP came in more than 50% over the 50% CD estimate" ...makes sense. That's 100%

Tduds, thank you!

It’s also in the AIA docs to do this. Redesign would then be free. There was an article a while back that the biggest frustration people had with architects is that they don’t watch costs. The quote something along the lines of “they design you something you fall in love with but can’t actually accomplish, and you end up having to redesign to something sub par with builder inputs that come off as just standard. So if you end up with a standard design designed by a builder many people wonder why you hired an architect at all.

EI, as I stated above, this is for one particular repeat client. They do their own budget and under the table negotiation with the trades. We have almost 20y history with this client (I personally have 8 active projects with them atm) so it's a bit of an inside joke.  We don't typically have budgets with our commercial project in the this case but otherwise, we don't do these games.

edit, I was also being halfway facetious.  We're normally very budget conscious.

I get it, I'm only "calling you out" because you offered the example that triggered the question today. Sounds like it's not a big deal in your case. 

However, for a lot of the architects I've worked with over the years, this is a common theme ... put in some extra fluff knowing full well that you won't get it because you'll have to cut it later to hit the budget. There are two terrible assumptions in this mentality: 1) that you always have to cut something, and 2) that the amount of stuff you have to cut is equal to the extra fluff you stuck in there. First, why would you need to cut anything if you came in at or under budget? Second, if you're over budget, you're going to have to cut the amount of stuff that gets you back to your budget ... this doesn't necessarily match the amount of extra fluff you designed into the project. Finally, if the amount of fluff equals the amount you have to cut to get you to the budget, why include the fluff in the first place!? Just don't put it in, and you won't have to go through the effort. 

archi_dude, if you can find a link to that article, I'd be interested in reading it.

I get that EI. The one place I consistently see things deliberately added, for the sake of being removed later, is with the int des department. Oh, you have 3 proposal board but one is tots bad or over-priced, or boring as fuck, etc... just to make the decision to the others "easier".

I would kill for that from the int designers. At least then they are looking for the client to make a decision, they are just guiding the client to the one they wanted from the start. Not ideal, but I don't see it so much as them failing to do their job. 

The designers I'm used to working with (for example) carry two tiles in the documents ... the one they really want, and the alternate because they can't be bothered to figure out if one fits in the budget and they are hoping the second will be cheaper. Then they want to list about a dozen alternates for the contractor to bid to help figure out which finishes they can get. The only difference in these alternates is an f-ing color.

the costs you get from a contractor aren't all that hard. it's not like they spend a day looking over your drawing set and actually know what the building is going to cost. VE isn't just getting the owner or architect to make concessions, it gets the contractor to make concessions as well, and having something extra in the project is a way to have a conversation about how you're really going to get to a working number (that will still be low, because the contractor relies on change orders to keep themselves above water.)

Oddly, I notice almost the opposite. Architects assuming the client would not want to spend that much on something. It crops up in litigation often enough to stand out. An example might be stainless handrails on the exterior or precast treads… The architect knows it’ll perform better than painted steel or concrete pan, but goes ahead and details the cheaper product/installation without ever really consulting their client. I see architects cutting costs more using cheap, subpar design choices regularly under the misguided notion they can mind-read how the client would judge value.

also. bump.

Yeah. I mentioned that I've seen my students post their homework here before, and that might have scared them off. Or maybe it was the other 7 people also pointing out the student's lameness.

Just once I'd like a wayward undergrad to actually contribute to this forum, rather than milking us for free advice and leaving forever after 3 posts.

That's a big ask there T. Start small with the wishes.

I don't even so much mind the all take and no give thing as much as that so many of the students come here without even having given their assignments a start. If they were asking targeted questions about tough aspects of something they were clearly trying to work through, then I'd feel like helping. When they title their posts "HELP" and then just state the assignment, that just makes me disgusted at their helplessness, and their wasting time and tuition on something they're not working at and are just having others do their work. What happens when they graduate and get to an architecture firm and get assigned some sections? Are they gonna post it here and hope someone does it for them before the deadline ("HELP!  I have WORK to do and I don't know how to do it because I never did any of my own homework in architecture school!"? AARGH!

Generally I post my redlines on Reddit and they take it from there. Hasn't failed me yet and I've been unemployed for YEARS.

Bloopox, sadly I find the same is true of many (thankfully not all) of the recent graduates in my office. I'm supposed to be mentoring them, but some don't seem to understand that mentoring != just giving them the answers, and give me quizzical looks when I tell them things like "try chapter __ of the Code."

Atelier, same here... The typical question is not about how to do thing, but more along the lines of "where can I find an example to copy". For one particular junior staff... I swear, every-time a code question comes up I talk it over and I stop myself and ask why have they not walked the 12 feet to the bookcase and looked it up? I can see you have 14 open tabs in google chrome asking various CAD and detail questions... I guess all our jobs are safe for a while.

My office doesn't currently have anyone who started with less than 5 years of experience or at younger than 32. I guess I'm losing patience and turning into a curmudgeon, but my current philosophy is let somebody else's younger, more energetic and idealistic firm weed out or rehabilitate the ones who can't walk to the bookcase and crack open a code book, or can't draw a section of an existing building with completely exposed structure, from photos that clearly show the entire section. Hmmph.

Ah, the mystery of the deleted thread explained, sort of. 

What I find so funny is that the same kids claiming utter helplessness with the simplest academic task could find three different after-hours parties in Kuala Lumpur in under 45 seconds on their phone.

citizen, yeah, but these same young people also went to Fyre Festival, and bought into that lamo asswhipe.

Fast food, instant service, just add water, no waiting necessary. And a complete meltdown if not. If this is the present, just imagine the future.

these questions worry me less then the generic "hi, i want to be an architect. should i go to GSD or AA, and how much money will I make in 5 years?" those ones who don't have any clue how to run their lives must have a tough time.

Lest the dog-pile get too deep, I should add that I teach youngsters regularly, and there are many really awesome kids out there: smart, hard-working, sincere, diligent people. Unfortunately, the small sample we typically get here are often... not. (Sawtooth guy seemed to show some promise.)

You're seeing the end results of the K-12 educational establishment's approach. Everything is group decision making and collaborative problem solving. Thinking on one's own is regarded as selfish or arrogant or elitist or, god forbid, less than fully "inclusive" (whatever the hell that means, anyway). It's really not the fault of this generation. It's how they've been socialized.

Who is the K-12 educational establishment? If there is any problem with the K-12 educational system it is one where a parent can come in and demand a grade change just because their precious son or daughter should get an exception. Even in those cases where the administrators back up the teacher's decision ... usually the parents starts applying local political pressure to the point that the easiest way out is to just to figure out a way to get the kid the grade their parent wants for them, and let the next teacher worry about it. Before I blame the kids, I look at the parents.

I think what geezer is trying to say is ... that it's his generation's fault?

Wow, geezer, you're old! ;-)

Yup, we boomers really fucked things up. In the name of kindness, we tried to pretend that you can have a functioning modern economy and society where nobody's feelings ever get hurt. Standards got eliminated and everybody got a participation ribbon. Some kids with severe mental deficiencies or behavioral problems got mainstreamed, because we wanted to pretend that everyone is the same. No dummies or smart kids. Group projects meant that the smart kids came up with the answers and the dumb/lazy ones in the group got credit too, because how can you give different grades for a group project? They get into the workforce and expect it to function the way school did. Why wouldn't they? Nobody told them life didn't quite work that way. Now we have the AOC's of the world with schemes for three hots and a cot for everyone who works or not, including those who don't work because they are "unwilling".

I agree with geezer to a degree. Standardization in the US education system has implicitly put forward an expectation that students will be taught for the test. So by the time they get to an undergraduate design program it has been engrained in them that an "A" is something you deserve for doing what you are expected to do (playing it safe is excellence or we are making you into labor)- which is really a "C". In some programs it's gotten to the point that stude nt look at the work that was completed a semester or year prior and look for the high grades, knowing that's an "A" project, so I can copy it. You should see the expressions on their faces when you tell them the site and prompt are differ from last year (but the concepts are the same). It's difficult to unlearn so much of what they are taught in so many instances and it has to happen very early in the process- like starting day 1.

Whooooooa. K-12 if anything, has become much more regressive. The existing administrative apparatus is incapable of dealing with the totalitarian attitudes of parents. Secondary effects are lack of support for teaching as an institution, which makes it nearly impossible to deal with teaching, and mentoring students in an effective manner. So, what is the end result? Students are more inclined to be "classified" rather than having a empathetic methodology employed. Black students are more likely to be escalated as "problems". Parents are incapable of providing any real parenting - thanks capitalism - and are more likely to force their children into special needs options.

Whooooooa. K-12 if anything, has become much more regressive. The existing administrative apparatus is incapable of dealing with the totalitarian attitudes of parents. Secondary effects are lack of support for teaching as an institution, which makes it nearly impossible to deal with teaching, and mentoring students in an effective manner. So, what is the end result? Students are more inclined to be "classified" rather than having a empathetic methodology employed. Black students are more likely to be escalated as "problems". Parents are incapable of providing any real parenting - thanks capitalism - and are more likely to force their children into special needs options.

I don't think I'm in disagreement with geezer's post, I largely agree to a certain extent, but wanted to clarify that I don't think there is some coordinated group of educators trying to teach mediocrity and giving out the same grades to all just because the students showed up. External pressures (parents, politics) have a bigger effect than they should in K-12 educational policies.

I’m curious how capitalism has made parents incapable of parenting.

Really? Let's see, most parents are stressed the fuck out; increasing debt, over-worked, more competition for face-time, oxy-contin, increased youth suicide rates, fewer real connections.....= short list.

As unfortunate as that is that some people do not have control over themselves at least they aren’t starving like the overall population in
your alternatives Venezuela?

Please with that Venezuela claptrap, it's not cute, it's fucking demeaning, and lacks any kind of intellectual rigor. Kleptocratic Capitalism is the fucking other side of the coin of Authoritarian Marxism.

Oh no I agree that capitalism needs to be regulated and reigned in from what we let it become but we have the processes in place to do that. Just curious why switching to a state run economy would be any better than the current system. Instead of having a system where companies are private with a government to make framework laws to keep them from becoming too evil, we’d have a scenario where those companies are the government.

I'm not calling for an outright state run economy, but if we don't create a significantly different, regulated capitalism, needs to occur, or else state run is what the proletariat will get.

Here here.

God dam auto correct and beer, *hear hear.

Beer beer.

Beer works 100% of the time. Btw, big beer festival for me tonight.

Happy mother’s day indeed. Mine is about to turn 3 at the end of this month so fingers are crossed that’s not a bridge I need to cross in the near future. Side note, that nirvana In Utero shirt in the 2nd pic is fitting, no?

Happy mother's day. Also, cute Bull Terrier! (... and kid, I suppose :) )

glad you're safe at least. Probably needed a new car an yway.

Deer are so stupid they are as likely to jump in the direction of danger as away from it. Kind of like architects.

A deer jumped from a high bank to my hood, bounced and fell into a ditch where he broke his neck. It's like 400 pound chickens, stupid.

JLC, wow! geezer, pretty much...

If you want to collide with a deer, cancel your collision coverage. Don't ask me how I know.

Can't tell you how many are around right now eating that sweet grass 6 inches from the edge of pavement, mix that with the elk migration and the rockfall season, lovely!

Good to hear no-one is injured, but hopefully no brews were lost as well. 

I recall very well that time in undergrad (4th year, circa 2006) when I would routinely drive home around 4 to 5am a few times per week. I fell asleep at the wheel for a second or so and woke up with a deer in the middle of the road a few feet from my bumper. (for those asking, I was driving a stylish 1990 Mercury sedan... crucial part of the story I am sure). I managed to stop since it was a residential area and was not speeding but that shook me up. 

I stopped doing those drives after that.

I drove while asleep once. Eastern Arizona on a curvy mountain road at 2 am. I'm lucky I woke up. I take it much more seriously now and always travel with coffee.

I’m sure he’ll be a Certified Professional Building Designer in no time.

Well done, Steeplechase.

That piece is fantastic. Imagine what a great client he'd be! Lots of inherent 'knowledge' and no discernible 'income.'

is that top workplace appropriate tho?

/s

As a menopausal woman, Non, I'm basically wearing a sleeveless (or cap sleeve) shirt under a cardigan or blazer every damn day, and taking on/off the top layer half a dozen times during the workday. Menopause is pretty awful. Add to that the abortion bullshit and how busy everyone is at work (as well as some really time-consuming challenges at my non-profit) and I'm on the verge of losing it at any given second.

Donna... that little /s at the end of my comment indicates sarcasm. I read the news, plenty of people on my side are also pissed (we even had our annual ignorance rally last Thursday).

I saw the /s Non, but I'm also just stating facts. TC is one of few places I go ahead and say what I want, even if I'm posting as me. B/c fuck everything right now.

I understand and respect that. Just tossing in something for shits & giggles because frustration is rising on one of my projects.

^Alabama nonsense. we get the news too...

Very little validity in what is currently proposed Jla, very little. Just a very badly masked religious trampling of established rights. Generic statements like the one you just made create the illusion that there is a debate to be had at all.

Jla, see my point above about the illusion of debate. It is religious bullshit hidden as fake science. I won't keep beating this dead horse (and spam Donna's inbox). It's not hard to see why the rest of the educated and scientific world laugh at this nonsense. Stop now before you make an even greater fool of yourself.

I don't listen to religious backed arguments,either bad or good. Fuck those illusions and the idiots who stand behind them. All I know is that my son would not be alive had it not been for all the healthcare advances on the women's side of things following their decision to move beyond silly pro-life arguments.

I'm not singed onto any package. Makes for very frustrating non-sequitur (hey-oh) leaps when my friends try to talk politics with me.

In a democracy the majority opinion writes the legislation...

False

It’s also not a political issue.

Also False

Maybe instead of arguing every fucking point from some absurd level of philosophical remove, you could take ten minutes to learn a little history. As usual, our points are so out of touch with reality that - while perhaps rhetorically useful - you mostly come off as a know-nothing know-it-all.

Nevertheless, independent of all philosophical / pseudo-scientific pontificating about when "life" begins, the simple reality on the ground is that restricting safe, legal access to abortion 1) does nothing to reduce the rates of abortion and 2) increases the rates of women dying from unsafe abortions and other related issues.

You can ignore everything else, because this is the true fact: This law will kill women.

"...*your* points..." Not "our points." Damn typo, can't edit.

Again it has nothing to do with my or anyone's regard for whatever life or non-life and everything to do with the simple reality that abortion bans don't stop abortion but do kill women. The law fails at it's stated purpose, and this result is well-known enough that any legislative support for abortion bans are, in my conclusion, obviously about something else.

You're arguing the wrong point and you're arguing it poorly. You're wrong twice.

jla-x: "Actually most scientists agree that human life begins during cell division." Citation, please. Although it doesn't matter. If a fetus is a person, fine. Hello, little human: I didn't give you permission to reside in my body, so you're out. That's my right as the owner of *my* body.

Hi Donna, sorry for the spam.

Jla, nice strawman position.  Must be nice to boil everything to simple little boxes while ignoring the real points.

also, jla-x, really: pregnancy is a women's health issue. Abortion is part of the healthcare that addresses women's health issues. How can you say it's wrong to frame abortion as a women's health issue when *that is literally what it is*? Women with ectopic pregnancies die. Women with gestational diabetes die. Women with ruptured placentas die. If you think those women *should* die, because of some "god's plan" or whatever, then you're the one making it a religious debate. Which it is not.

It's baffling to me that, as the token libertarian, you're not fervently pro-choice. Of course this is just more evidence that you're arguing from a Devil's Advocate position because you have no skin in the game and would rather criticize (incorrectly, I might add) the rhetoric of people you actually agree with because... well I dunno maybe you're just an asshole?

^what ever the Canadian law says, because we're better than y'all. How that was determined tho, I don't know and honestly don't care... and for what it's worth, I'd totally eat a dolphin steak. (see previous comment about non-sequitur points).

At any point up to and including labor. 

Because that's a healthcare decision made between a woman and her doctor(s), often for extremely personal and complex reasons that heavily weigh concerns about the welfare and/or survival of both the mother and the fetus.

But that's just my opinion. American law has long decided that third trimester abortions are, in some cases, not allowed. I don't really know enough to say why, but I assume there's a compromise involved there that works for most people.

I 100% agree with tduds. At any point in their life a person should be allowed to make their own decisions about their body. Unless someone is mentally unfit and under conservatorship because of it.

"philosophical remove is what we need in our society." 

 Nah. Historical, political, civic and scientific literacy is what we need in our society. The choice to argue from a remove without immersing yourself in the facts on the ground is simply evidence that the decision, whichever way it goes, will not affect you personally.

jla, now you answer this: If laws banning abortion do nothing to lower the incidence of abortion, and if the religious right was not opposed to Roe v. Wade until well after the decision (see my links above), what other motivations could there be for their incessant harping on this issue for the past 35 years?

Oh look who's appealing to emotions now.

This. 

Law. 

Will. 

Kill. 

Women.

My one and only reasoning for opposing the law. All my other comments have been (apparently failed) attempts to point out the bad faith justification of the pro-life movement. From here on I'm only responding to comments that address this very simple reasoning.

who knew that by mid 2019, the centre of intellectual discussion would emerge from a few dozen white christian men in the cesspool of Alabama. Why don't they arm the fetuses in utero so they can defend themselves? No need to change anything if you allow them their 2A. AMIRIGHT?

Bad faith justification is the only kind of justification the pro-forced-birthers have, tduds. Don't call them pro-life; they don't care about humans post-birth. The *only* thing they care about is forcing pregnant women to have no choice but to give birth.

Really saying the quiet part loud on this one:

 "Chambliss, responding to the IVF argument from Smitherman, cites a part of the bill that says it applies to a pregnant woman. "The egg in the lab doesn’t apply. It’s not in a woman. She’s not pregnant."

(https://twitter.com/lyman_brian/status/1128413792801521664)

So, now, from a point of PHilOsOpHicAl ReMovE, why is an embryo in a woman's womb deserving of rights, but a genetically identical embryo in a lab not?

jla, remember like 50 replies earlier when I recommended you stop or else risk making yourself look even bad? Perhaps you should have listened. No one is buying your points and debating you on this would be giving yours (and all other who share such misinformed views) a false sense that they are worthy of debate.

"It’s funny that I haven’t even stated my personal opinion, just rhetorical arguments, and everyone is automatically positioning me to avoid the hard questions I posed."

https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/

Also I called you out on this specifically, way up there:

"If your answer is no, then you need to justify why they don’t, and define at what stage personhood is granted." 

I did, and you called it sickening. Funny how fast your high-minded stoicism collapses when it risks undermining your case.

FWIW I'm not trying to change your mind. I just think it would be irresponsible to let your inane ramblings go unchallenged, lest someone stumble upon them and think, for lack of counterpoint, they're reasonable statements.

I did. "Because that's a healthcare decision made between a woman and her doctor(s), often for extremely personal and complex reasons that heavily weigh concerns about the welfare and/or survival of both the mother and the fetus. 

 But that's just my opinion. American law has long decided that third trimester abortions are, in some cases, not allowed. I don't really know enough to say why, but I assume there's a compromise involved there that works for most people."

Yes, jla-x, if you want to say a fetus is a person and has personhood, fine. That means my right - as a person - is to prevent any other person who is impinging on my rights from doing so by whatever means necessary. If a fetus, or a blastocyt, or a baby, is occupying my body against my express permission then I get to evict it. Period. Abortion protects my right to my property.

Maybe you can shoot the fetus? It's "tresspassing" on your "property" jla, please advise.

We still haven't addressed the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS fact that this law, regardless of anyone's opinion on fetal personhood, will not stop abortions from happening. It will simply result in women taking higher risks to obtain them, which will lead to more women dying. 

If you value life, you need to acknowledge that abortion bans result in a higher loss of life. Full stop.

Tduds, I've already made the claim that fetuses deserve to have their 2a respected and should be armed in utero.

Yes I'm refusing to let the debate get away from the starting point. jla rants have a tendency to wander into whichever rhetorical arena he feels he has the upper hand, and I'm not going to entertain it.

I'd ask the mom.

She'd probably say something like "I find your hypothetical scenarios overly specific and suspiciously slanted to favor one side of the non-hypothetical outcome." or "Take my baby" idk

wrong.

"It’s funny that I haven’t even stated my personal opinion, just rhetorical arguments, and everyone is automatically positioning me to avoid the hard questions I posed." 

Never forget.

jla-x, do you live in the real world? I do, and I had to have this actual conversation with my OB when I was pregnant: if I’m in distress during delivery I want you to save me, not the baby. My reasons are my own, but they have to do with responsibilities I have to care for *people who already exist in my life* who would be in dire straits if I die. Many women would choose to have the baby saved, many wouldn’t. The point is it’s MY right to protect MY life. I
f you think I’m a monster because of it I really can’t emphasize how much I don’t give a fuck.

^which is why no one cares about your opinion or want your sympathy.

"If a person is pregnant for 8 months and decides to abort a fully developed baby for non medical reasons..." 

Please provide evidence of this occurring in significant numbers.

Propaganda shapes opinion. Please provide evidence of this occurring in significant numbers. Please provide evidence of a prevalence of behavior that necessitates legislation which will prevent it (Ignoring for a moment the fact that *this* legislation will not prevent it so I can counter your implausible hypothetical for a moment)

“The baby is born,” he declared. “The mother meets with the doctor. They take care of the baby. They wrap the baby beautifully. And then the doctor and the mother determine whether or not they will execute the baby.”

 ...This, for example, is an outright lie, repeated by the president, that no doubt shaped a few opinions.

An opinion based on a false information is an incorrect opinion.

This is so good I have to repeat it: "Please provide evidence of a prevalence of behavior that necessitates legislation which will prevent it (Ignoring for a moment the fact that *this* legislation will not prevent it so I can counter your implausible hypothetical for a moment)"

Please provide evidence that late-term, non-medical abortions occur in similar numbers to incidents of bestiality.

And, I mean I can't stop: Outside of medical emergencies, which are common because pregnancy is a dangerous health situation, the reasons someone *might* feel compelled to abort very late in a pregnancy come about *because abortion is stigmatized as baby murder*. If women needing abortions weren't demonized by the right wing evangelicals (solely as a way to get votes, know some history it's purely about politics) then they would access them when the fetus is still smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. But we make it SO hard, and make women SO scared, that many can't even face it until it's too late. Kermit Gosnell wouldn't have existed *if we didn't demonize abortion*.

That's a very fair point, Donna.

Abortion Murder Queens would be an excellent roller derby team name.

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

Please provide evidence that late-term, non-medical abortions occur in significant numbers.

In 2019, 342 people have been shot and killed by police in the US. 15 were unarmed. That's about 3 per month. Which, to me, seems non-trivial.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

See how easy it is to just answer the question?

Please provide evidence that late-term, non-medical abortions occur in significant numbers. & just for kicks, please provide evidence that laws banning abortion reduce the incidence of late-term non-medical abortions (or any abortions, for that matter).

You can either answer the question or stop replying. If you keep dancing around the actual issue I'm going to keep coming at you with the same question. I got all year.

Unfortunate lack of data on the "non-medical" numbers, though.

This, however, is salient: 

Kimport, a medical sociologist at UCSF whose research focuses on gender, sexuality and social movements, followed up on the research in 2018 with 28 new interviews of women who got later abortions. She said about half were lacking critical health information about their fetus earlier in their pregnancy. Kimport described in an interview how one woman was told by her doctors that something in her 20-week scan looked suspicious but it wasn’t until weeks later that it was clear the fetus had significant abnormalities.

The other half of the women had challenges finding a provider, getting necessary approvals from doctors in states that require them, or had financial constraints. All the women in the study traveled to other states to get the procedure done.

So, to bring this all full circle: These instances could be significantly reduced, or outright avoided, by de-stigmatizing the procedure and increasing access to care for more women (along with proper sex education, access to contraception, and universal affordable health care, which would reduce the rates of late term abortion by reducing the rates of unwanted pregnancy). 

So jla-x are you saying the women who get abortions should die instead? How is that fair?

Worth repeating that none of this statistical digression impacts the fact that Alabama (and Missouri!) passed a law that will kill women.

But you keep asking us what constitutes personhood as if that matters. If a fetus isn’t a person then it’s part of my body and I’m allowed to abort it. If the fetus *is* a person then it’s occupying my body without my permission and I’m allowed to evict it. I don’t see how the personhood a argument even matters, But you’re focusing on the fetus’ personhood as if once it’s a person the woman whose body it’s occupying ceases to be a person an
d therefore should die even if the fetus is threatening her life. That makes no sense.

My very first comment in this trainwreck: 

the simple reality on the ground is that restricting safe, legal access to abortion 1) does nothing to reduce the rates of abortion and 2) increases the rates of women dying from unsafe abortions and other related issues.

I'll dig up some info on this later, but feel free to look for yourself. I gotta go have family time now.

I’m not talking about the doctor. Doctors provide healthcare. Sometimes the healthcare is an abortion. I’m talking about the person hood of the person who is pregnant. If someone enters my home, and then refuses to leave, even if I invited them in in the first place, when I want them to leave they ha
ve to. If they end up dead because that’s the only way I can get them out of my house that’s not murder. Yes someone is dead, but it’s not murder

It's not fucking murder you twat. How hard is it to understand?

Sperm is the origin of life. Let's make male masterbation a felony. Then once all the men are in jail we can have a safe and peaceful society.

Welcome to the party Tintt. Hope you have a strong brew near by.

Cheers!

^because it's not. You don't get to arbitrarily change the meaning of words to suit your particular point of view. Are you sure you should not be out there selling bibles or some shit like that? Same value in those books as what you're thrown up here in TC.

So the law bans doctors from performing life-saving abortions on people who will die if they don't get one; the state is choosing that the personhood of the fetus is more valid than the personhood of the pregnant person, and jla-x *you* are saying it's ok if the pregnant person dies. Again: if the fetus is a person, then it has all the same rights that I have, but living uninvited in someone else's uterus isn't a right. I think the 3rd Amendment might even apply!

If the fetus were breaking into your home to burglarize you, it would be legal to kill in most states.

Oh and also the vast majority of abortions these days are medically induced, you don't even really need a doctor. You just take a pill, and again, if abortion wasn't so demonized by the right-wing Taliban it would be something people could just do routinely at home. There are literally millions of snake oil salesmen out there selling acupuncture and reiki and whatever-the-fuck woo bullshit. If Roe is overturned I see a new network of "spiritual health" clinics popping up that serve women who are suffering from cessation of menses. Which means, again, that abortion will only be unobtainable by people who are pregnant and there is a significant health risk for their own life or the life of the fetus, but they won't be able to get the life-saving medical treatment they need because it will be illegal. It happens already, google Savita Halappanavar: killed by the government of Ireland by denying her the abortion that would have saved her life.

I dont think anymore mics can be dropped to further establish the pounding Jla's points have taken.

well of course, the libertarian would be up for regulating what goes on inside a woman's uterus, of course.

you clearly have no clue JLA.

never mind, tduds and donna have this locked down.

If you're talking about the Alabama ban, yes there are exceptions to save the life of the pregnant person. But don't *you* be dumb, either: the overarching goal here is to make abortion completely inaccessible. To overturn Roe so states can force people to give birth. As a self-proclaimed libertarian I really, really don't understand how you can't oppose this. Also, the governor who signed the Alabama bill into law said she did it because God gives us sacred life. Not only is she using her own religion to justify taking away healthcare from millions of women, as a libertarian I'd think you'd be opposed to that intermixing of religion and governance.

"Also abortions to save life is incredibly rare. " Again, jla-x, citation please. I had an abortion at 17. It didn't threaten my biological life at the moment I aborted, though no one can say how the pregnancy might have developed; it wouldn't have been uncommon for it to have killed me. But the pregnancy *did* threaten my life, my livelihood, my ability to live as a self-determining human, and my health. I'd go so far as to say that *every* abortion saves a life.

I was about to edit my previous reply to add something very close to what Donna says above, so I won't because she said far more than I can.

And jesus jla-x: how many examples do you need of how many ways there are that someone ends up dead but it's not murder? You're being obtuse. As Non said, you can't just decide words mean what you want them to mean.

It's about religion eroding well established social progress while clouding up definitions of terms and statistics in order to confuse under-educated folks. Nothing you've stated is debatable because it is utterly void of sustenance. Also, it's fucking Alabama, are you saying they, who hold a solid hold at the bottom of the education ladder, are now ahead of everyone else in the civilized world? Fuck that shit, but please, continue to dig that hole.

Personhood is just nonesense religious goobly-gook speak. Keep on digging, you're doing great!

jla-x, I don't know how to lay this out more clearly to you that the personhood question doesn't matter. If a fetus isn't a person, then it's a part of my body and I can abort it. If it *is* a person, that means *it is subject* to the same rights as any person is, and those rights do not include being able to take up residence in another person's body. If the fetus-person dies as a result of being removed from the not-fetus-person's body, BFD. Doesn't matter.

If the fetus-person is occupying my body against my wishes it isn't "innocent". You're using the word "innocent", as tduds noted you above, to evoke an emotional response. It's a parasite. Also, if we're talking bout the Georgia ban we're not just talking about doctors being prohibited from performing abortions; the Georgia ban allows a pregnant person who obtains an abortion in another state and returns to Georgia to be charged with conspiracy to commit murder. Updated to add: so yes, a ban like Georgia's infringes on a person's bodily autonomy by not even allowing them to get treated *elsewhere* for their health care needs.

I think a pregnant person should be able to make that decision in connection with their doctor.

And if you're offended by the word parasite: how exactly do you think a baby grows? It leeches off the body of its host. When I was pregnant with my son, that 'lil parasite was loved from day one! When I was pregnant at 17, that thing inside me was a malevolent parasite. *THAT* is why it's the choice of the pregnant person to decide: the only context that matters is the context of the person who is affected.

I know I’m stepping in this but ... jla-x, you’ve already answered your question of when to grant a fetus personhood. By your own statement when the fetus becomes autonomous, it can be considered a person. “If personhood is granted at 9mos, or 2weeks, etc...that fetus becomes an autonomous person and also has the right to not be killed.” Where you seen to be misunderstanding your own argument is that autonomy isn’t something that you can define at 2 weeks or 9 months arbitrarily. Medically speaking, at what age would a healthcare professional define a fetus as autonomous?

jla, stop. You have no idea what delivery at 20 weeks is, for all parties involved. Survival is not a good metric since it may technically be possible to survive at 20weeks, long term survival (could be measured in days) is very unlikely.. and 100% impossible without round-the-clock intensive care.

source: I'm the father of a premature child and have seen the back-of-house having stayed nearly a month in intensive care hospitals.  You have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

and yes, life is absolutely debatable.  I say it's when I can register the child for a social security number and for that, I require a birth certificate.  That's a reasonable metric... not some arbitrary feel-good religious shit you're supporting.

It is certainly up for debate you fool.. This is just semantics to push religious doctrine. Look beyond the cliff notes.

jla-x: Let me try to understand: you are arguing that life begins at conception, and therefore ending a pregnancy is ending a life, right?

JLA, that's an obvious pro-life group. do you even read the sources you post? Fuck man... you're so far gone.

jla, your religious right wing propaganda is not science.

Curt, you're like 14hrs late to the party. We told JLA this 200 replies earlier. 

 JLA, just admit it that you've been defeated in a subject you barely understand. No shame in that and hopefully you'll get yourself some big-boy pants and learn a thing or two... or not, and then get frustrated when people point and laugh at your opinions.

I mean: I'm not saying I disagree that life begins at conception. Maybe it does. It doesn't matter, unless you apply a religious "sanctity of life everything to god's plan" view to it. *Viability* definitely doesn't begin at conception, so until viability the little bundle of cells is a parasite dependent on another human's body - not their will, their body - for survival. So if bodily autonomy is a right, that right supersedes the right of the parasitic body's right.

JLA, that examiner opinion piece, and the Contend Projects behind its author, is insultingly stupid. This is answers in genesis, 911 trutthers, anti-vax level stupid.

Donna, do yourself a favour and don't chase down the dumb-as-fuck rabbit hole in JLA's last link... you'll only come out very angry... and sad that people are so fucking dumb... 

Also worth noting that parents who follow this nonesense will pass it on to their kids.  Talk about terrible education standards.

keep it up, you're doing great.

Jla, I told you earlier that your position is not worthy of debate. This has been made obvious to everyone but you. Not my problem you don't get it and you never had a chance as your sources are intellectually flawed.

That's actually a good long post, jla-x, and there's lots to agree on. But it still all goes back to what tduds has been saying: laws that make abortion - a legal and necessary healthcare procedure - impossible to obtain *will* result in women dying. So if some legislator's concern is "life" they can't only be concerned about the entity inside another human's body. When I was 17, if I had not been able to get a judge's approval to have an abortion without parental notification, I would have thrown myself down some stairs, or intentionally crashed my bike really hard, or tried to O.D. on drugs (OMG there were so many drugs available at my public high school) to make my body abort, or asked one of my stoner friends to punch me hard in the stomach. Anything, I would have done *anything* to get the thing out of my body that had taken over my body. PREGNANT HUMANS WILL DO THIS and have been doing it since the beginning of time and if people have interest in protecting life, in humanity, they need to recognize this reality. When it comes to my life or the life of a parasite inside me - even if it is "a person" - I, and millions of humans, will always choose our own lives. Other humans won't, they will choose to continue the pregnancy, and that's fine it's their choice. But the choice of what to do with one's own body - in life and after death, too - ONLY rests with the owner of that body.

JLA, defining that term is not important. It's a religious-based distraction to avid dealing with the real issues (as Donna clearly states out).

"...needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop" The proper environment being the body of another human who has rights to not share their body. Again: if it *is* a human, it's subject to the same laws as every other human, which include not having the right to use another human's body against their will and express permission. So the personhood question doesn't matter.

JLA... I don't even know where to start piecing that piece of bullshit apart so I'll just treat it like the rest of the garbage you've posted. 

Typical religious argument: discuss semantics ad-nausea and the, now suddenly important, implications of using these carefully chosen words (with pre-loaded meanings) in order to appeal to the less educated and make discussion appear intelligent. I should have started a logical fallacy bingo yesterday... I'd have won thrice over by now.

*edited because apparently I'm terrible at grammar this afternoon.

Also, jla-x, out of curiosity and it's a serious question: you mentioned above that prohibiting a doctor from performing an abortion isn't the same as regulating a woman's right to abortion. People have floated this idea that we outlaw bullets: keep the 2nd Amendment in place, but make the production and sale of bullets illegal, take them out of stores, make them unobtainable. So folks will still *have* the right to bear arms, but they won't be able to *access that right* because they won't be able to get bullets. Is that an overstep by government? Is making guns unusable the same as taking them away?

Donna, are you suggesting we resort to pistol whipping when the British come back for their land? Because I think that's a great idea.

please stop using the word 'science.' you don't know what that means, and it doesn't lend legitimacy to your opinion.

L O friggin L

Digging even lower. new record?

Beyond rock bottom. that's where you've set your goal, so keep it up. You clearly can't be educated on this subject anyways.

Jesus jla-x! “Protecting the minority” is our responsibility as members of society. Full stop. That’s what the US is *founded* on. And we’re not a Christian nation officially, but protecting the minority IS the bedrock of Christianity. If anyone is twisting that definition it’s the forced birthers who argue for the humanity of a microscopic clump of DNA while conveniently ignoring the actual human person standing in front of them ready commit suicide instead of be pregnant. I don’t expect you to understand this; you’re a libertarian and thus subscribe to a philosophy of “I got mine fuck you”.

So many fucking delusions.

As usual, Chris Hedges has a good take on the issue.

I wish people would get as excited about affordable, quality childcare and how it's women's jobs to clean up everyone else's damn messes all the time (for free) then perhaps women wouldn't feel so strongly about needing to make decisions to protect themselves from motherhood. It's interesting to note too that many conservative men need mothering their whole lives, basically that they need someone around full-time making them sandwiches, picking up their dirty socks, making their doc's appointments, etc.

It's telling that jla's justifications are made entirely of hypothetical questions while the counterpoints he chooses to ignore are largely real, actual events that have occurred. 

Anyway I've given up on this trash fire and probably going to block jla for my own sanity. Thanks everyone, it's been utterly obnoxious.

The real question is what is the government's role in the situation then.

I hope you're only this exhausting online, because otherwise it would make for a lonely sad existence. Later.

JLA, based on your previous answers, I don't think you understand the meaning of "logic"... that is, unless you're also re-branded that word to suite your pre-existing position. There is no debate here since you lost gloriously from your first post. Too bad you're too stubborn to notice.

Correct. Glad we've come to a compromise.

edit. today is a canadian holiday too.  Not relevant, but felt the need to brag...

https://theoutline.com/post/7083/the-magical-thinking-of-guys-who-love-logic

I highly doubt you read the essay.

Not attacking logic, merely the weaponization of the term to suggest an objective truth where none exists, which is what you do in almost every thread that finds you in a contrarian position.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ too many to get into

Conspicuously absent in "Legal Issues" is the fact that Alabama and several other states have passed bills that restrict access to abortion far beyond your own concluded "best compromise". Conspicuous because that's what this thread is about and your continued presence in this thread is muddying this very simple fact in order to score rhetorical points about larger issues that no one was interested in hashing out until you forced our hands.

Again what's got me aggrivated is less about our disagreements and more about your tactics and personality in this thread (&also this forum overall)

Just gonna drop this back into the mix in case you forgot...

You'll be waiting a while. I see no reason to get into it with you at this time based on what has already been discussed. While you wait, you might as well look at the website I linked and do some reading.

If you're tired of reading that, and still feel like waiting, you could check this one out as well ... https://yourbias.is/

BTW, this could really go for everyone involved. There have been plenty of fallacies and biases all around on this one.

"Mainly, I was knocking down the contempt that the pro-abortion left has for the other side of the debate."

Well that certainly backfired, didn't it.

"I said that 8 weeks (per Alabama law)" 

The law makes no provisions for pregnancies fewer than 8 weeks.

From the text of the bill: "(7) UNBORN CHILD, CHILD or PERSON. A human being, specifically including an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability."

We've both been wrong on a bunch of fronts in this thread. But I'm pretty sure nothing about it has lessened "the contempt that the pro-abortion left has for the other side of the debate." 

Nevermind the unnecessarily disingenuous labeling of your opposition as "pro-abortion."

I’m fine with pro-abortion as a label; you can also call me pro-chemotherapy, pro-appendectomy, pro-quadruple-bypass, pro-lumpectomy, etc etc. and I’ll continue to call people who oppose abortion forced-birthers.

I agree. But... can we keep this to a minimum in TC?

Classic. Too bad this falls of deaf ears because you're all killing babies by the thousands you evil Jaausus hating terrorist.

tuds, I agree completely and I started to comment to that effect. But then I thought it better to invoke the master of sanity and put this idiocy to rest (although idiots will persist, no doubt).

I think the real problem is not so much the subject context, which given its outdated nature is easy to poke holes, it’s that stories like the Alabama one give less than intelligent people a false crutch to prop their already terrible point of views. Just like dropping a partial Jordan Peterson quote on Facebook or whatever. Dude, there is more to this than you’re capable of understanding.

just push the "ignore this user" button, life gets so much nicer when you don't know about these assholes.

But if I don't fight the assholes they might recruit new assholes. That reasoning is an alarming proportion of my online presence. 

Okay maybe you're right

Assholes represent an alarming proportion of society in general.

before the internet we didn't know how many they were, now we know.

R. I. PEI

What? Google tells me you’re a liar.

I'm only seeing posts on Twitter. No press announcements yet...

Joke I just saw on twitter: He's changed his name to I. Was Pei. I laughed, yep. Cuz I'm a monster.

That seems like the type of joke that Pei himself would find hilarious.

Paul Goldberger twitted

Confirmed: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/16/obituaries/im-pei-dead.html

Hey NON, seems like you're not really the fastest googler around.

Yeah, well, I’m not happy that I was wrong. Boo.

^ This is what happens when, instead of drinking a couple of beers in studio, you slam some meth. Just say 'no,' kids!

lol. Seriously where are the program spaces in that building? it's one big stair. The lecture halls are glass.

DS+R did the "The floor is the wall is the roof!" bit pretty well with Boston's ICA and they've been re-hashing it to worse effect ever since.

I can't think of a firm that has earned and then lost my admiration as much as them.

It's been a while since the last good dumpster fire... still cold here so the heat is nice. 8-)

JLC-1, i’ve said here before that I frequently comment being mindful of the many, many other eyeballs that are reading these threads, not just whoever I’m responding to directly. These conversations really are not just between us regulars, other people who never make comments themselves read them, and I frequently feel like that’s my audience. Just this week, in fact, I had a phone call with a recent graduate who read one of my comments and was looking for some professional advice. I see my time on Archinect very much been about mentoring, not just talking.

mentoring jla? it would be more productive talking to a door. pretty much two people each having a one-way conversation. the guy is literally incapable of learning.

The point is valid. You are a role model for someone, somewhere, whether you know it or not. And in many cases whether they know it or not. A common teaching technique is to make an example of someone, thus proving the term “useful idiot”.

Self-reflection is critically important.

“There but for the grace of doG go I ... “

Dems won the midterms

Useful idiots provide a steady stream of easily debunked nonsense. It helps to think of this as a kind of public service, setting an example for no one to follow. Except other idiots, of course.

curt, I'm saying I feel like I can mentor *other* people, not the person I'm directly responding to.

sort of like seneca's letters to lucilius? no idea if they were ever intended to actually be delivered to lucilius, it's more of a public diary of sorts.

What do you think the origin is?

Donna, I understand your point, hopefully you understand how useless is to try it with this particular idiot.

I hear you JLC-1, I mean anyone who stamps their foot and says "I won't vote for a Democrat unless they are *perfect*" is beyond logical discussion (and, frankly, has already had their vote suppressed by the Republicans when they take this tack).

I have not seen anything he's posted in the last 2 weeks, and don't need to.

So, how about that GoT finale?

Haven't seen it yet! comes too late to this side of the continental divide.

You didn't miss much. I'd say it's a tad bit more entertaining than watching (reading) JLAx's descent into madness.

he can descend all he wants, I'm not buying...

WHat is this?

waaayback machine in full effect. Ambaz in Japan.

Thank you, Miles, for the diversion. And, be optimistic... eventually the green growies will take over the neo-Egyptian pylon.

emilio ambasz! we loved to see his new inventions in magazines way back then....

it should be a standard to improve or at least replace all the biomass being impacted by your buildings, this was a great deal for ambasz, who tried his work to blend with nature

the modern update of Corb's "Piloti and roof garden"

There's also 'Turf Town' by Glen Small.
https://www.smallatlarge.com/2010/07/turf-town-revisited/

^ Good article.

I'M HAVING DIFFICULTY READING THE ARTICLE DUE TO FORMATTING CHOICES. CAPITALIZATION IS IMPORTANT FOR MANY REASONS, AND I WONDER WHY THE AUTHOR CHOSE TO IGNORE IT AND WRITE WITH THE CAPS LOCK KEY STUCK IN THE ON POSITION. I GUESS I WILL TRY AND READ IT REGARDLESS TO SEE IF THE CONTENT IS WORTH THE EFFORT. YES, I REALLY THINK ALL-CAPS KILLS READABILITY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps#Readability

If you ever met Glen Small, you'd get the all-caps choice.

Interesting. I pasted it into a case converting website to read it. There were quite a few typos I didn't notice as I was struggling through the all-caps version, but the content was worth the effort.