having grown up with libraries and sets of encyclopedias it's not hard for me personally to wait for certain things...i wouldn't want to go back to the time before the internet necessarily either though..i appreciate how much easier things are.. but part of me does wonder how it will be for those that grew up with the internet/texting/email etc. so much conversation and so little of it thought out..or interesting? or consequential?
remember when you had to wait at least a few days for a letter? that feeling of anticipation was great when you finally got one back.. and the handwriting and tactility of that letter made it all the more special. now you're hurt if your email isn't returned within a day or two. or a text within minutes. i don't think it's healthy. but kids these days don't know what life without all that was like..so maybe they won't be effected.
LOL Lars!!! I agree, my frustration comes from of a project on which I'm presently working. The client wants everything RIGHT NOW, and when it comes to producing renderings, drawings, sample boards etc., that just doesn't happen. My boss seemed irritated that I could only tell him my rep was stopping by today to drop off the samples. I told him she typically makes her calls early to mid afternoon, which still seemed to annoy him. Not sure what else to do, short of beaming physical samples to us. Unfortunately, the technology to do so hasn't yet been invented.
HAHAHAHA becca!!! Yup, I've done that every single time I've been privvy to the conference calls with him. had an urge to do that today with my boss, but instead I just turned around and continued on with what I was in the middle of.
try working with traders melt. they see massive changes in miliseconds and i swear are trained to expect the rest of the world to be as fast. must be a hell of a job to unwind from.
my office view is of the freedom tower..it's half as tall as it is going to be..and already is taller than world trade center 7..and is going to be much taller than gehry's building. seems like an arbitrary idea that can't be let go of...but it scares me a little to be working so close to what will be new york's tallest building.
the drone of helicopters has been going all morning..and i it seems as though some flight patterns are going over manhattan which i didn't notice so much before yesterday's events. i wasn't here back then..so i can only imagine how impressive this view was in 2000.
it's odd to be a new yorker (and not at the same time) this morning.
lars--my mom works across from wtc--her view was the midsection of the towers, now it's the midsection of the new one. i worked a couple of blocks away.
on 9/11 we contemplated meeting for breakfast on the wtc plaza, but as i was walking there, the first building exploded right in front of me. she apparently was in her office, heard a loud noise and instinctively walked out, took the elevator down and kept walking. she didn't even take her keys, wallet, purse, anything, and says she didn't turn around until canal street. (weirdly, she later discovered someone had tried to max out her credit cards when they were investigating/cleaning out her offices...can you imagine that??)
we watched from our corner as the building burned and the second was hit, never in a million years thinking they would come down. we saw stuff falling out, then realized some of the 'stuff' was people. when they did come down, we ran inside and i'll never forget the cloud of black dust and debris coming down the street and hitting the glass like an explosion. or the grit of the debris in my teeth.
almost every day for about a year, i had this recurring dream that i was in some random place (italy, the beach, the lower east side) and i'd look up, and there'd be a plane flying in the air, and it would violently explode.
despite all that, i don't understand these people who are celebrating...it's a sad thing, all the way around.
my mom's back in her office and she follows the construction of that tower very closely. i think it's really sweet...
the other strange thing was that the previous night, i'd had to work late and finished a pretty big project. my boyfriend (husband now) came to pick me up from work and suggested we go celebrate at windows on the world...we thought it was cheesy and neither of us had been. we went all the way to the elevators, but the elevator guy told us there was some sort of event that had a cover charge $14, i think... we decided we didn't want to pay and that we could always come back some other time...
I've been looking at some recent photos of the NYC archinect 3.0 launch and I'm very disappointed in myself for not attending. Despite being about 2000 miles away I could of made it and should of made it.
almost every day for about a year, i had this recurring dream that i was in some random place (italy, the beach, the lower east side) and i'd look up, and there'd be a plane flying in the air, and it would violently explode.
elinor, thanks for sharing that (am I sounding too much like a kindergarten teacher lately?!?). Seriously, I love hearing stories of people's 9/11 experience and hold incredibly strong memories of that day, as we all do, but I especially love the stories of the city and how that urban place reacted on that day.
I thought this quote was really the most eloquent summation of many of our conflicted feelings:
Even the Libyan rebels weighed in. "Osama Bin Laden's death is considered the death of a big part of evil in the world," said Col. Ahmed Bani, the military spokesman for the rebels in Benghazi. "Religion does not allow us to dance with joy for his death but we feel comfortable knowing he's dead."
Nicely expressed. And inspiring of hope. I also found Obama's words about how Osama was a killer of muslims, and Jon Stewart's words about how now the most dominating face of Islam in the world are the youths in Tunisia, and Egypt, and Libya, etcetera, thought-provoking.
"Oh, and apparently that fucker shielded himself with a woman at the end."
So says the guy holding the gun.
Congrats Donna!
My dumb website where I make fun of buildings went viral today. In France. Most views I ever got in a day was 350. Today it spiked to 1750. Almost all traffic came from french version of archinect. Boy, are the french passionate about architecture. They make us look like bush leagues. To be fair, our archinect looks 50 times better. So there!
typically you ask the gc to provide the colors you want on the wood that you're using on the project. and they usually give you a range of colors to choose from..as well as a range of mixtures within that range. not sure about a good exterior stain though...you may want to ask your sub what they typically use..or check your spec on the project because it may already be in there?
on a completely unrelated note...i had dreams all night last night that i was starting the fall semester at school..i had forgotten the annual competition that we had every year..so i was going to have to finish drawing two boards in one long night...i've been out of college for almost 15 years.. when do i stop having school anxiety dreams?
that's messed up that someone would do that... guess it goes to show that there are all different types of evil in the world..big and small. i am sad that you actually had to see firsthand what you saw...that is the definition of traumatic. i heard about it all from howard stern of all people as i was driving to the train to go to work. i remember sitting at my desk listening to the radio and thinking..'how can i work on a day like today?'...our boss finally sent us home around noon.
i knew two people that died that day..but neither were particularly close..one of them was in the wedding with me of one of my best friends earlier that summer so i was involved in the email thread going back and forth about people asking about if anyone had heard from him. i can only imagine the conflicted feelings that people that were in the city or those that lost loved ones must feel this week.
i feel like celebration is an odd response to someone's death...although in a way it seemed as though people were celebrating their love for america in a way. maybe feeling hope that this will mean that we can start to get people home.
i hope you are right lars, about it being a celebration of hope.
funny about the dreams. i get that sometimes too. i wake up thinking i have to write a paper or meet a deadline then wake up a bit more and realise i am not in school anymore and those deadlines were all met. then wake up a bit more again and realise i got DIFFERENT deadlines to worry about,
but those ones i am ok with so i go back to bed ;-)
what i thought was funny about the U-S-A chanters is that they all seemed to be college age men who in other times would be in uniform rather than doing jello shots on a sunday night.
I had the same immediate observation about the partiers on Sunday night, vado. They looked more like frats celebrating after Duke/ NC State game. It just looked staged as opposed to spontaneous. meh.
I have the same reoccurring dream that I have a final exam coming up for a class I never went to, in my worst subject... Math.
Elinor- that is the craziest story of events I've ever heard of. I cannot even imagine the trauma that you and everyone else witnessed firsthand that day. The spiritual side of me says that something/someone was definitely looking out for you and your mom.
come on.. you have to be pretty damn cynical to think that was staged.. you got to be kidding me.
regardless of what your opinion is on the subject there are a lot of people that were affected on that day..and a lot of people have had pent up emotions regarding the man that we were led to believe was responsible for the actions that created those emotions. Much like any rally or celebration..it seemed completely honest and spontaneous...
as the reporters were saying all night..more and more people kept arriving. and before you say it was because of the cameras...there were no cameras at ground zero until there were already 100s of people there.
the relative age of the crowd probably had a lot to do with DC being more of a college town and the hour of night... the celebration they showed at ground zero showed people from all walks and ages of life.
i had a dream the other night that i was a campaign staffer for donald trump. he was speaking in all these elementary school gyms. i had a light gray double breasted suit with pin stripes and a farrakhaneisenman bowtie.
lars, I'm pretty liberal. More so than whatever democratic party stands for. But the crowds in NYC didn't look very representative of NYC population (unless NYC drastically changed in the last 2 years I've been away). I don't have cable, so the only live feed on sunday I was able to get to stream was Al Jazeera. They had cameras in the gathering and were interviewing participants. It immediately struck me as odd. Most looked like servicemen-women that strategically got the night off. I think the average person who celebrated was 10 years old when 9/11 happened.
Even if that's the case, it's not that big of a deal. I'm not in the camp of those demanding a long-form death certificate from Kenya :)
well..i do think that alot of people who were younger were out enmasse..cause people at that age were probably more effected by those events emotionally due to their age..where they were in development etc.. (i still remember the challenger explosion and where i was). they were also the ones who could go to those celebrations at around 11 on a sunday night...since they don't have to work the next day most likely.
the nyc crowd (to me) seemed to be a lot of fire fighters..probably a lot of cops and not unlikely would have a lot of servicemen...but i also saw a lot of citizens. i was watching msnbc and also local news here.
i realize it's not a big deal..and i believe in some conspiracy theories..but it's crazy for me to think that anyone would think that these were staged... a ton of people were effected in new york city and washington... if you've lived anywhere near those two cities you either knew someone or know someone who knew someone... a spontaneous celebration seems well within the range of normal.
Yes it does. Fancy liberal-art-degreed liberals have been pretty against the whole affair.
Perhaps the celebrations weren't necessarily celebrations of vengeance but a realization that the U.S. no longer has a legitimate reason to be in war.
The total cost of war since 2001 has been $1,189,093,000,000. If we were to build housing at a average of $200 square-foot, that's be 5,945,465,000 square-feet of space.
Basically, if we never had a war and dumped all of the money we would have spent into a blackhole, we could have housed 10,809,936 Americans in luxury. If we drop it down to nominal run-of-the-mill real estate, we could bump that figure up to 22,000,000.
In such a scheme, we could have done a series of equity swaps where wealthier people in currently nice buildings could swap their property for a new property, continue making payments and then sell their old properties to needier people who would pay for those properties at cost for a few years until they're capable of recapitalizing them at or near market rates.
A scheme like this could house upwards of 40,000,000 people. The surge in supply would have suppressed speculation, we would have not entered a recession and states would be collecting hundreds of billions of dollars right now in real estate and sales taxes. The great migration of people could have strengthen core American cities leading to more social stability, job creation and income growth.
Did we rejuvenate America? No, we pissed it away faster than an alcoholic drinking hunch punch made out of Glenlivet.
So, yes, some people might celebrate the fact that our "mission is accomplished" and we can finally move away from forcing an entire generation into abject poverty and littering the "third-world" with missiles.
wow unicorn.. completely irrelevant rant to what i was referring to but i'm glad you got your talking point out...what i was referring to was rust's point that you don't have to be democrat or liberal to believe that those out there celebrating were legitimately there on their own and not part of some kind of conspiracy/crowd created by the current government.
Among my FB friends, the under-30s tended to be "Yay he's dead! Yay America!" while the 40 and over crowd were all reflective and worried about what would come next, plus a bit disheartened by the celebrations and crude comments about what to do with the body.
So a younger crowd on the streets doesn't surprise me. Plus, older people couldn't get a babysitter in time - don't discount that little census blip!
It's not an irrelevant rant. If you are unable to see two or more points here are inter-related and politicize this by not claiming to politicize it... then I beg to ask who is really ranting here.
Are people celebrating because there is an ends to a means?
Are younger people embracing it because they're truly patriotic?
How do we not assume that many people aren't doing this out of irony?
Or does the death of Osama Bin Laden really represent a symbolic sunset of one generation slowly fading out of power?
I was merely making the point that many people don't necessarily seem to be celebrating the actual murder, execution or assassination of a human being— they're celebrating an epilogue of intra-national oppression brought about by extremity, polarization and irrational fear.
$750 Billion on defense spending alone this year. Soon to reach over a trillion in the coming years. I don't think the killing of Osama will change anything. We still have soldiers stationed abroad in every war we've ever fought in, from Germany to the Philippines. Our soldiers will be in Iraq and Afghanistan forever.
well..i do think that alot of mythical beings who were magical creatures were out enmasse..cause magic-types at that age were probably more enchanted by those events emotionally due to their forbidden study of necromancy..where they were on the sleigh rides etc.. (i still remember the Easter Bunny revolt and where i was). they were also the ones who could go to those festivities at around a stroke of midnight on a mortal night...since they don't have to cast spells the next day most likely.
the toymaking crowd (to me) seemed to be a lot of saints ..probably a lot of flying reindeer and not unlikely would have a lot of elves...but i also saw a lot of non-magical beings. i was watching x-masbc and also North Pole news here.
i realize it's not a cursed enchantment..and i believe in some alchemy..but it's crazy for me to conjure that anyone would think that these were vaporized from thin air... a ton of Santa were effected in Artic and Antarctic... if you've lived anywhere near those two mythical lands you either foresaw someone or foresaw someone who foresaw someone... a spontaneous celebration seems well within the range of normal
and Elven-liberals or Santocrats have nothing to do with it.
james - could you please explain what you mean by intranational? Are you referring to us or Al-Quaeda. I'm confused... that's not necessarily the term I would ever use to describe the situation.
Intra-national— As within a nation, specifically our nation. Terrorism is a particularly complex issue but one such separation between terrorists groups and paramilitary organizations, militias and rogue states is that terrorism doesn't necessarily have a defined goal other than the common motivators of hatred, fear and idealism. Terrorism is responsive and reactionary— terrorism can only lose if the act of terrorism fails to garner any response. Al-Qaeda was successful in that response.
While the United States has never been a truly unified country, we've been proud of those aspects of being collective-but-disjointed nation. However, September the 11th— in my opinion— has made those fractures in our country even wider and in some cases toxic. Whether Al-Qaeda weathers the next decade or gets turned into a fine red mist from a barrage of drone attacks, the U.S. is not fundamentally the same country it was ten years ago.
While there's not only international conflicts, as in the U.S. versus the Taliban, there also exists many new conflicts within the country itself— political polarization and a rise in the number of domestic hate groups just to name a few obvious examples.
My best buddy from undergrad has been nominated for yet another Tony Award (he's won two) for The Book of Mormon set design. Any NYC TCers gone to see it yet?
I'm so, so proud of him, and he's a design genius - always has been - so it's totally well-deserved. Only a teeny, tiny whiny little bit of me wonders what the hell I'm doing with my life.
"It's not an irrelevant rant. If you are unable to see two or more points here are inter-related and politicize this by not claiming to politicize it... then I beg to ask who is really ranting here."
still you...
just because you misread what i said or because you think i said something or did something doesn't make it true.
i was attempting to make it apolitical (i can give you a definition if you need one as you apparently think the rest of the world does for the simplest of words)...
instead of being republican or democrat i think you have to be batshit crazy to think that the people that gathered in washington dc or new york were told to go there as some sort of political stunt.. how's that?
now mr. petrunia? where's my ignore button? PLEASE!
prolly true rusty.. sometimes you and unicorn rub me the wrong way. and sometimes i'm just grumpy from not having enough sleep and havin too much work.
i used to have a canadian roomie who decided to replay speeches from one of their prime ministers from the 70s while my other roomie was watchin hoops... eventually both of us asked her why she though either of us cared about canadian politics...
Thread Central
****melt
having grown up with libraries and sets of encyclopedias it's not hard for me personally to wait for certain things...i wouldn't want to go back to the time before the internet necessarily either though..i appreciate how much easier things are.. but part of me does wonder how it will be for those that grew up with the internet/texting/email etc. so much conversation and so little of it thought out..or interesting? or consequential?
remember when you had to wait at least a few days for a letter? that feeling of anticipation was great when you finally got one back.. and the handwriting and tactility of that letter made it all the more special. now you're hurt if your email isn't returned within a day or two. or a text within minutes. i don't think it's healthy. but kids these days don't know what life without all that was like..so maybe they won't be effected.
LOL Lars!!! I agree, my frustration comes from of a project on which I'm presently working. The client wants everything RIGHT NOW, and when it comes to producing renderings, drawings, sample boards etc., that just doesn't happen. My boss seemed irritated that I could only tell him my rep was stopping by today to drop off the samples. I told him she typically makes her calls early to mid afternoon, which still seemed to annoy him. Not sure what else to do, short of beaming physical samples to us. Unfortunately, the technology to do so hasn't yet been invented.
The problems never go away, they just change forms.
melt, you know how to roll your eyes, don't ya? Hard to do over e-mail or phone though. :(
I'm off to the museum to see some real pirate booty!
HAHAHAHA becca!!! Yup, I've done that every single time I've been privvy to the conference calls with him. had an urge to do that today with my boss, but instead I just turned around and continued on with what I was in the middle of.
Pirate booty. ARGH!!!!! :o)
try working with traders melt. they see massive changes in miliseconds and i swear are trained to expect the rest of the world to be as fast. must be a hell of a job to unwind from.
@donna sounds like you are having fun ;-)
my office view is of the freedom tower..it's half as tall as it is going to be..and already is taller than world trade center 7..and is going to be much taller than gehry's building. seems like an arbitrary idea that can't be let go of...but it scares me a little to be working so close to what will be new york's tallest building.
the drone of helicopters has been going all morning..and i it seems as though some flight patterns are going over manhattan which i didn't notice so much before yesterday's events. i wasn't here back then..so i can only imagine how impressive this view was in 2000.
it's odd to be a new yorker (and not at the same time) this morning.
architecture mag kitchen porn
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.......I luv it.
I'm glad to see Bin...gone and well on the otherhand I'm more happy to see The Navy Seals Alive.... nice to see one go our way!
lars--my mom works across from wtc--her view was the midsection of the towers, now it's the midsection of the new one. i worked a couple of blocks away.
on 9/11 we contemplated meeting for breakfast on the wtc plaza, but as i was walking there, the first building exploded right in front of me. she apparently was in her office, heard a loud noise and instinctively walked out, took the elevator down and kept walking. she didn't even take her keys, wallet, purse, anything, and says she didn't turn around until canal street. (weirdly, she later discovered someone had tried to max out her credit cards when they were investigating/cleaning out her offices...can you imagine that??)
we watched from our corner as the building burned and the second was hit, never in a million years thinking they would come down. we saw stuff falling out, then realized some of the 'stuff' was people. when they did come down, we ran inside and i'll never forget the cloud of black dust and debris coming down the street and hitting the glass like an explosion. or the grit of the debris in my teeth.
almost every day for about a year, i had this recurring dream that i was in some random place (italy, the beach, the lower east side) and i'd look up, and there'd be a plane flying in the air, and it would violently explode.
despite all that, i don't understand these people who are celebrating...it's a sad thing, all the way around.
my mom's back in her office and she follows the construction of that tower very closely. i think it's really sweet...
the other strange thing was that the previous night, i'd had to work late and finished a pretty big project. my boyfriend (husband now) came to pick me up from work and suggested we go celebrate at windows on the world...we thought it was cheesy and neither of us had been. we went all the way to the elevators, but the elevator guy told us there was some sort of event that had a cover charge $14, i think... we decided we didn't want to pay and that we could always come back some other time...
I've been looking at some recent photos of the NYC archinect 3.0 launch and I'm very disappointed in myself for not attending. Despite being about 2000 miles away I could of made it and should of made it.
elinor that is some dream scene
almost every day for about a year, i had this recurring dream that i was in some random place (italy, the beach, the lower east side) and i'd look up, and there'd be a plane flying in the air, and it would violently explode.
elinor, thanks for sharing that (am I sounding too much like a kindergarten teacher lately?!?). Seriously, I love hearing stories of people's 9/11 experience and hold incredibly strong memories of that day, as we all do, but I especially love the stories of the city and how that urban place reacted on that day.
It's official: I'm now officially on the board of directors at People for Urban Progress.
cool donna
i hear you elinor about how its not entirely a good thing this celebration of death, even for someone so nasty. death is grim no matter who it is.
congrats Donna....
I thought this quote was really the most eloquent summation of many of our conflicted feelings:
Even the Libyan rebels weighed in. "Osama Bin Laden's death is considered the death of a big part of evil in the world," said Col. Ahmed Bani, the military spokesman for the rebels in Benghazi. "Religion does not allow us to dance with joy for his death but we feel comfortable knowing he's dead."
Nicely expressed. And inspiring of hope. I also found Obama's words about how Osama was a killer of muslims, and Jon Stewart's words about how now the most dominating face of Islam in the world are the youths in Tunisia, and Egypt, and Libya, etcetera, thought-provoking.
Oh, and apparently that fucker shielded himself with a woman at the end.
also, the taliban used a 12 year old boy as a suicide bomber this weekend.
"Oh, and apparently that fucker shielded himself with a woman at the end."
So says the guy holding the gun.
Congrats Donna!
My dumb website where I make fun of buildings went viral today. In France. Most views I ever got in a day was 350. Today it spiked to 1750. Almost all traffic came from french version of archinect. Boy, are the french passionate about architecture. They make us look like bush leagues. To be fair, our archinect looks 50 times better. So there!
that's a good quote manta. quite nice.
agree with stewart too, though i suspect only people who watch his show would agree with him.
Haven't watched the Daily show in its entirety yet. Am hoping to do that at lunch.
Dumb question - is it possible to get wood stain samples? Anyone receommend a good exterior stain for SoCal? Commercial project. Thanks.
***melt,
typically you ask the gc to provide the colors you want on the wood that you're using on the project. and they usually give you a range of colors to choose from..as well as a range of mixtures within that range. not sure about a good exterior stain though...you may want to ask your sub what they typically use..or check your spec on the project because it may already be in there?
on a completely unrelated note...i had dreams all night last night that i was starting the fall semester at school..i had forgotten the annual competition that we had every year..so i was going to have to finish drawing two boards in one long night...i've been out of college for almost 15 years.. when do i stop having school anxiety dreams?
elinor
that's messed up that someone would do that... guess it goes to show that there are all different types of evil in the world..big and small. i am sad that you actually had to see firsthand what you saw...that is the definition of traumatic. i heard about it all from howard stern of all people as i was driving to the train to go to work. i remember sitting at my desk listening to the radio and thinking..'how can i work on a day like today?'...our boss finally sent us home around noon.
i knew two people that died that day..but neither were particularly close..one of them was in the wedding with me of one of my best friends earlier that summer so i was involved in the email thread going back and forth about people asking about if anyone had heard from him. i can only imagine the conflicted feelings that people that were in the city or those that lost loved ones must feel this week.
i feel like celebration is an odd response to someone's death...although in a way it seemed as though people were celebrating their love for america in a way. maybe feeling hope that this will mean that we can start to get people home.
i hope you are right lars, about it being a celebration of hope.
funny about the dreams. i get that sometimes too. i wake up thinking i have to write a paper or meet a deadline then wake up a bit more and realise i am not in school anymore and those deadlines were all met. then wake up a bit more again and realise i got DIFFERENT deadlines to worry about,
but those ones i am ok with so i go back to bed ;-)
what i thought was funny about the U-S-A chanters is that they all seemed to be college age men who in other times would be in uniform rather than doing jello shots on a sunday night.
I had the same immediate observation about the partiers on Sunday night, vado. They looked more like frats celebrating after Duke/ NC State game. It just looked staged as opposed to spontaneous. meh.
I have the same reoccurring dream that I have a final exam coming up for a class I never went to, in my worst subject... Math.
Elinor- that is the craziest story of events I've ever heard of. I cannot even imagine the trauma that you and everyone else witnessed firsthand that day. The spiritual side of me says that something/someone was definitely looking out for you and your mom.
rusty!
come on.. you have to be pretty damn cynical to think that was staged.. you got to be kidding me.
regardless of what your opinion is on the subject there are a lot of people that were affected on that day..and a lot of people have had pent up emotions regarding the man that we were led to believe was responsible for the actions that created those emotions. Much like any rally or celebration..it seemed completely honest and spontaneous...
as the reporters were saying all night..more and more people kept arriving. and before you say it was because of the cameras...there were no cameras at ground zero until there were already 100s of people there.
the relative age of the crowd probably had a lot to do with DC being more of a college town and the hour of night... the celebration they showed at ground zero showed people from all walks and ages of life.
i had a dream the other night that i was a campaign staffer for donald trump. he was speaking in all these elementary school gyms. i had a light gray double breasted suit with pin stripes and a farrakhaneisenman bowtie.
lars, I'm pretty liberal. More so than whatever democratic party stands for. But the crowds in NYC didn't look very representative of NYC population (unless NYC drastically changed in the last 2 years I've been away). I don't have cable, so the only live feed on sunday I was able to get to stream was Al Jazeera. They had cameras in the gathering and were interviewing participants. It immediately struck me as odd. Most looked like servicemen-women that strategically got the night off. I think the average person who celebrated was 10 years old when 9/11 happened.
Even if that's the case, it's not that big of a deal. I'm not in the camp of those demanding a long-form death certificate from Kenya :)
well..i do think that alot of people who were younger were out enmasse..cause people at that age were probably more effected by those events emotionally due to their age..where they were in development etc.. (i still remember the challenger explosion and where i was). they were also the ones who could go to those celebrations at around 11 on a sunday night...since they don't have to work the next day most likely.
the nyc crowd (to me) seemed to be a lot of fire fighters..probably a lot of cops and not unlikely would have a lot of servicemen...but i also saw a lot of citizens. i was watching msnbc and also local news here.
i realize it's not a big deal..and i believe in some conspiracy theories..but it's crazy for me to think that anyone would think that these were staged... a ton of people were effected in new york city and washington... if you've lived anywhere near those two cities you either knew someone or know someone who knew someone... a spontaneous celebration seems well within the range of normal.
and liberal or democrat has nothing to do with it.
Yes it does. Fancy liberal-art-degreed liberals have been pretty against the whole affair.
Perhaps the celebrations weren't necessarily celebrations of vengeance but a realization that the U.S. no longer has a legitimate reason to be in war.
The total cost of war since 2001 has been $1,189,093,000,000. If we were to build housing at a average of $200 square-foot, that's be 5,945,465,000 square-feet of space.
Basically, if we never had a war and dumped all of the money we would have spent into a blackhole, we could have housed 10,809,936 Americans in luxury. If we drop it down to nominal run-of-the-mill real estate, we could bump that figure up to 22,000,000.
In such a scheme, we could have done a series of equity swaps where wealthier people in currently nice buildings could swap their property for a new property, continue making payments and then sell their old properties to needier people who would pay for those properties at cost for a few years until they're capable of recapitalizing them at or near market rates.
A scheme like this could house upwards of 40,000,000 people. The surge in supply would have suppressed speculation, we would have not entered a recession and states would be collecting hundreds of billions of dollars right now in real estate and sales taxes. The great migration of people could have strengthen core American cities leading to more social stability, job creation and income growth.
Did we rejuvenate America? No, we pissed it away faster than an alcoholic drinking hunch punch made out of Glenlivet.
So, yes, some people might celebrate the fact that our "mission is accomplished" and we can finally move away from forcing an entire generation into abject poverty and littering the "third-world" with missiles.
wow unicorn.. completely irrelevant rant to what i was referring to but i'm glad you got your talking point out...what i was referring to was rust's point that you don't have to be democrat or liberal to believe that those out there celebrating were legitimately there on their own and not part of some kind of conspiracy/crowd created by the current government.
Among my FB friends, the under-30s tended to be "Yay he's dead! Yay America!" while the 40 and over crowd were all reflective and worried about what would come next, plus a bit disheartened by the celebrations and crude comments about what to do with the body.
So a younger crowd on the streets doesn't surprise me. Plus, older people couldn't get a babysitter in time - don't discount that little census blip!
It's not an irrelevant rant. If you are unable to see two or more points here are inter-related and politicize this by not claiming to politicize it... then I beg to ask who is really ranting here.
Are people celebrating because there is an ends to a means?
Are younger people embracing it because they're truly patriotic?
How do we not assume that many people aren't doing this out of irony?
Or does the death of Osama Bin Laden really represent a symbolic sunset of one generation slowly fading out of power?
I was merely making the point that many people don't necessarily seem to be celebrating the actual murder, execution or assassination of a human being— they're celebrating an epilogue of intra-national oppression brought about by extremity, polarization and irrational fear.
you tell me this doesn't look staged!
$750 Billion on defense spending alone this year. Soon to reach over a trillion in the coming years. I don't think the killing of Osama will change anything. We still have soldiers stationed abroad in every war we've ever fought in, from Germany to the Philippines. Our soldiers will be in Iraq and Afghanistan forever.
@rusty,
well..i do think that alot of mythical beings who were magical creatures were out enmasse..cause magic-types at that age were probably more enchanted by those events emotionally due to their forbidden study of necromancy..where they were on the sleigh rides etc.. (i still remember the Easter Bunny revolt and where i was). they were also the ones who could go to those festivities at around a stroke of midnight on a mortal night...since they don't have to cast spells the next day most likely.
the toymaking crowd (to me) seemed to be a lot of saints ..probably a lot of flying reindeer and not unlikely would have a lot of elves...but i also saw a lot of non-magical beings. i was watching x-masbc and also North Pole news here.
i realize it's not a cursed enchantment..and i believe in some alchemy..but it's crazy for me to conjure that anyone would think that these were vaporized from thin air... a ton of Santa were effected in Artic and Antarctic... if you've lived anywhere near those two mythical lands you either foresaw someone or foresaw someone who foresaw someone... a spontaneous celebration seems well within the range of normal
and Elven-liberals or Santocrats have nothing to do with it.
james - could you please explain what you mean by intranational? Are you referring to us or Al-Quaeda. I'm confused... that's not necessarily the term I would ever use to describe the situation.
Intra-national— As within a nation, specifically our nation. Terrorism is a particularly complex issue but one such separation between terrorists groups and paramilitary organizations, militias and rogue states is that terrorism doesn't necessarily have a defined goal other than the common motivators of hatred, fear and idealism. Terrorism is responsive and reactionary— terrorism can only lose if the act of terrorism fails to garner any response. Al-Qaeda was successful in that response.
While the United States has never been a truly unified country, we've been proud of those aspects of being collective-but-disjointed nation. However, September the 11th— in my opinion— has made those fractures in our country even wider and in some cases toxic. Whether Al-Qaeda weathers the next decade or gets turned into a fine red mist from a barrage of drone attacks, the U.S. is not fundamentally the same country it was ten years ago.
While there's not only international conflicts, as in the U.S. versus the Taliban, there also exists many new conflicts within the country itself— political polarization and a rise in the number of domestic hate groups just to name a few obvious examples.
I'm aware of the meaning of the word. I just honestly don't understand it in regard the context of the topic that's all.
lol. i figured it out. unicorn is a turing test.
I was staying away from TC today because of the seriousness, but jump's comment made me nerd-giggle. Fantastic.
My best buddy from undergrad has been nominated for yet another Tony Award (he's won two) for The Book of Mormon set design. Any NYC TCers gone to see it yet?
I'm so, so proud of him, and he's a design genius - always has been - so it's totally well-deserved. Only a teeny, tiny whiny little bit of me wonders what the hell I'm doing with my life.
"It's not an irrelevant rant. If you are unable to see two or more points here are inter-related and politicize this by not claiming to politicize it... then I beg to ask who is really ranting here."
still you...
just because you misread what i said or because you think i said something or did something doesn't make it true.
i was attempting to make it apolitical (i can give you a definition if you need one as you apparently think the rest of the world does for the simplest of words)...
instead of being republican or democrat i think you have to be batshit crazy to think that the people that gathered in washington dc or new york were told to go there as some sort of political stunt.. how's that?
now mr. petrunia? where's my ignore button? PLEASE!
How about upholding that rule about not outing people?
what rule is that?.. and did you think that noone recognized you with those full page post rants?
lars, you've been in an agro mood all day today. Are you depressed over the Canadian election results? :)
Congrats Donna's friend!
prolly true rusty.. sometimes you and unicorn rub me the wrong way. and sometimes i'm just grumpy from not having enough sleep and havin too much work.
i used to have a canadian roomie who decided to replay speeches from one of their prime ministers from the 70s while my other roomie was watchin hoops... eventually both of us asked her why she though either of us cared about canadian politics...
maybe a bit harsh..but it was the playoffs.
lars, I hope tomorrow goes better then. Don't let your imaginary friend from the internets get to you :)
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