Nice post, snook. You're right, I rarely feel I'm giving my clients my best, even if I've give them all I can - we always have the feeling of being able to have done just a little more, just a bit more insight or effort would have made the project even better....
It's a good point about the work of TWBTA, Philip. The tombasil never could have had the power in a drawing that it has in real life. I have no doubt it will be an overall good experience to be in that building materially. The cultural history is just overwhelming. I do wonder what went through their minds when they took this commission? I've had one very culturally charged and difficult project in my life and it's very hard to say if what we did was a success or not - I know at least one prominent figure in the world of architecture thought it was NOT a success.
Anyway, just one more thing about this whole topic, because it points to something bigger in contemporary America: it's ironic that when I say a bunch of very powerful people - elites, by any definition - should not have ridden roughshod over a certain aspect of public good by claiming they were championing a different public good, I am the one who gets accused of being an elitist.
Emilio, this isn't directed only at you, because we all wear these particular blinders in various ways, myself included, and this is the biggest problem in our political world right now: the people in power confuse the regular folk in ways that detract from the main problem but instead cause infighting, all along stealing away what little power those folks have to make sure they keep themselves in their position.
Let's use Wisconsin as an example: say Gov. Walker's coalition promised a zillion in tax dollars to Taliesin if, in exchange, they gave power of the board over to the state - then the new board decided to relocate Taliesin West to Wisconsin so "more people could enjoy it" without having to trek out to the desert. Would we all sit still for that? Or try to find a silver lining in it?
Anyway, just one more thing about this whole topic, because it points to something bigger in contemporary America: it's ironic that when I say a bunch of very powerful people - elites, by any definition - should not have ridden roughshod over a certain aspect of public good by claiming they were championing a different public good, I am the one who gets accused of being an elitist.
This battle seems to go on in every architectural public hearing I have ever attended. Little of it having to actually with Architecture.
Someone always has an axe to grind. You can only imagine the things I have seen in all my lost years of Architecture, due to very powerful people championing causes. Most often Lawyers in these hearings are being paid far beyond the Architectural Fees for the
Whole of the Project.
Donna, I'm not blind to the fact that very powerful people, an elite, used their power to get this done. My point is that, in this one case, I don't think the result is so bad.
My other main point would be that, if you disapprove of the move because you think a unique museum is being destroyed, then it's a very valid argument, and I think there is much merit in it, because there's no denying that the Barnes as it stands now is a valuable artifact of Philadelphia history and of art history. But then, if you do take that stand, then no design, no matter how brilliant or mediocre, should satisfy you of the move, and sniping and faulting the people who will go to the new museum as a lazy and uncouth mob is also besides the point (and if not elitist, then just irrelevant to the argument).
Well, I really didn't mean to imply that any- and everyone who goes to the new location is lazy, although I guess I said as much in one of those rants above. Not *everyone* will be, but some of them will be, which is true of any group of people grouped by any criteria anywhere.
I, for one, am too lazy to brave the chaos that is the new Colts stadium, because I don't give a damn about sports. If Brad Pitt came to speak about architecture, especially if shirtless, at Colts stadium, nothing would keep me away. ;-)
emilio...
'the uncouth masses' seems to be more your issue..at least i think if you read through all of the posts you are the one bringing it up... donna mentioned that there'd be a ton of new school groups going through in response to one of your points about how the staff currently is rude to pretty much everyone and how the museum somehow loathes having visitors... it's been your agenda and issue i think...from the very first post you made on the subject. maybe i misread..but your third post mentions,
"YES, that last statement is a dig at the visitors who go there NOW, to counterbalance all the insensitive digs made at all the people who will see the collection when it's on the Parkway, because, you know, they're only going to walk in there between bites of their cheesesteaks and then burp and walk out again"
it's been interesting hearing what you've had to say since you're a philadelphian and far closer to the whole subject than i... and also because we disagree on pretty much every point you've made... but it's nice to know that there's a diversity of opinions on the matter.
for instance:
1. i don't think that moving a museum so that it's in the same area as a bunch of other museums is a plus..it just makes it convenient to see alot of places all at the same time.. your example of paris sort of proves my point.. most museums are spread around the city...there are very few instances where you find two together... would the rodin museum benefit from being closer to the louvre or musee d'orsay?
2. i don't think that just because barnes purchased rare art that that makes it ok for powerful people to then come and stomp on his will for the sake of the public... i kind of feel like it's his right to do with his property what he wants... just because it's rare doesn't make it everyone's...
3. i can agree with you on the whole reservation thing...seems odd to make it so difficult to visit a museum..but then again..i don't think that gives people the right to make it easier just because it's hard.
4. your example of the 'original context' is potentially valid.. like saying where do you stop digging in rome? the fora or the borgo?... but in the artist's studio there aren't masterpieces hanging alongside those pieces... the studio is probably not a museum-like space and the artist probably didn't write in his will that nothing should be moved nor would he have the money to provide for the will to be upheld...although i agree that the foundation and neighbors made it hard to keep that going on forever into the future..
and donna, i'm one of those people that would trek to see the barnes..and hopefully will next weekend...but i also have run up the steps and done the rocky pose too.
Donna, You might need to get a pair of these for the, XXX-ray
Vision." Cause I will not loan out my pair. I'm sure they would enhance the Brad Pitt Experience.
I guess I could look it up, and I guess I will, but when I was a freshman in school, our design teacher took us to a museum out in the suburbs somewhere. I was bored, but I remember there were two buildings, and one had a large circular gallery space on a second floor. Is this the Barnes place you guys are talking about? Like I said, I was bored there. We were supposed to sketch the art, and I sketched a few sculptures, but then simply daydreamed. I was obviously impressed.
i saw the film about barnes museum donna. was interesting. seems like most of the people involved are pretty hard to take, on either side of the aisle. sure does look like the govt stole a museum. until now i had thought it had more or less become financially unsustainable and that was why it had become vulnerable and taken over, but now looks more murky than that. bad leadership all round really.
i have no insight into the current barnes situation except that i remember the uproar when the barnes monograph was published in the early 90s: 'it will ruin the institution', 'against his wishes', etc.
seems to me it made luscious reproductions of amazing artwork available to poor people like me, who couldn't find an architecture job and could barely afford coffee. ...and just happened to be lucky enough to be working in a bookstore.
i love the rich experiences available in eccentric institutions, and i think the experiences offered in most contemporary museums are so scrubbed-clean that they become akin to seeing the work on tv. if the cret facility continues to operate in some capacity, i'd be more likely to go there and see what's going on than a mall-like museum on museum blvd.
but i'm sure the original work - for those who do pay attention to it - will be well cared-for and well-displayed in the new place and the institution will live on in a way that is more accessible.
maybe not the greatest situation, but also not a crisis. obviously i'm ambivalent.
Steven, I'm with you. Actually, TV and books have made museums and even buildings anti-climatic for me. I mean, you see a painting in real life, that you've seen in a book/slide/tv, and often the only thing I really appreciate is the size. Otherwise, it's simply a "Oh, look, there it is. Let me scratch that off my list..."
I'm still struck by how underwhelmed I was when I saw the Pantheon. Sure, it's neat, sure it's old, but I've seem it in books, so it didn't look any different, and I've been in larger covered spaces, so nothing new there. It was sad, really. I'm an architect at heart, and I'm not blown away? Talk about jaded.
Sarah, I'm actually intrigued by your non-reaction to the Pantheon. And honestly I don't think it's all that uncommon a reaction, but many people don't want to admit it. So tell us: what *was* the last thing you saw/visited that blew you away? And can you figure out why?
I for one loved the Pantheon but was completely surprised at my reaction to the Colosseum, which was overwhelming. I was so freaked out by the thought of all the bloodshed there I could hardly stand to be in the building - we basically took one cute pic of Angus and I fled outside - it was freaky and scary, and totally unexpected, in a BAD way.
Last overwhelming-in-a-good-way experience for me was Jose Obrerie's Miller House.
I mean, you see a painting in real life, that you've seen in a book/slide/tv, and often the only thing I really appreciate is the size. Otherwise, it's simply a "Oh, look, there it is. Let me scratch that off my list..."
Wow, I feel completely the opposite. I was just discussing this with some friends this weekend - I basically have difficulty looking at any art reproductions in books anymore because when I see the works in person they are so luscious and bright or sombre or gobbed with paint or perfectly, exquisitely flat... even the very best print reproduction robs a painting of its texture, it's brilliance, its presence. (Besides which, the colors are usually so off that I have found print reproductions that were literally unrecognizable to me, only to read the caption and realize that it is actually I painting I myself have seen before in real life.) Paintings that make use of many many dabs of complementary colors in order to achieve an overall sense of one color (like the impressionists, particularly Cezanne & Van Gogh) often look completely different in repro - it's like the camera can pick up all the underlying greens, or the surface reds/pinks, but not both at once. Somehow our eyes can do this in person though...
i'm truly intrigued by feeling underwhelmed by the pantheon...or anything experienced from book/tv to real life...
there is sooooo much more to be experienced in real life... especially in a place like the pantheon...you don't get the quality of air..light..sound at all. i feel like you can feel the history.. also half the experience of the pantheon to me is how it's tucked away in the middle of the neighborhood..and how you can glimpse it from far away but only truly experience it when you're right in the piazza... but i guess i used to walk past it almost every day when i was in rome...so it sort of became an old friend. plus with real buildings there are so many details to see that aren't typically photographed...same with paintings really.
the last time i remember being blown away by a building was walking into st.peters... i remember sayin 'holy sh!t'...without even thinking about where i was.. (and it was inappropriate/appropriate at the same time really.)
most modern buildings don't have that effect on me anymore..but i always appreciate finding my way to projects...it makes the building that much better.
Plus I know nothing about the Barnes but this discussion was fascinating. I have a friend who worked for years on staff at the Isabella Gardner, as they were struggling with the decision of how to appropriately steward the museum into the future (and ultimately did decide to build an addition as we all know). They were interesting debates. I too am ambivalent about the question however because although I enjoyed seeing the Sargents et al within the context of the beautiful house, I also did truly feel that at times the house itself distracted me from a pure appreciation of the art. So although I enjoyed the communion of art/architecture, I did feel that the impact/appreciation of both was lessened somewhat by the compromise.
The discussion did raise some questions in my mind:
- How does everyone feel about the Barcelona Pavilion? Is that different because it was made to be temporary / demountable? Should it have stayed where it was? Should it have travelled more to reach a wider audience? I have to say that I was highly underwhelmed by its siting, but loved the building itself on visiting it.
- What about the galleries of the Louvre? There is so much art squeezed onto so little wall space that in many places I was straining my eyes to look at a painting hung 15' up, above 3 others. The greek statues in the antiquary wings are similarly crowded. Not ideal for art viewing in my opinion, and yet...
- The Paris point is moot because the Rodin IS in the immediate vicinity of the Musee d'Orsay (not to mention the Eiffel Tower & Musee des Invalides) and I would say enjoys a significant amount of visitors simply due to proximity. The Picasso on the other hand is a bit more out of the way and certainly has a much lower profile. Of course in Paris there are literally tourist attractions in nearly every quartier so not so comparable to Philly.
it's still a walk from the orsay to the rodin... it's not immediately adjacent as the museums are/will be in philly. at least that's how i remember it when i went there...i would imagine that rodin is famous enough in his own right to garner visits by itself...obviously hard to say. but i think that museum building adds to the experience...the sculptures being both in the house and out..and the beauty of the garden just makes it that much better...now imagine moving the sculptures in to a plain white gallery and what that would take away.
maybe it's more comparable to tschumi's park in terms of distance..or going to versailles..
anyway..the point is the idea of having museums all over appeals to me versus grouping them into one single area... so i think the point is still valid.
What I was impressed with from St. Peters was the sheer scale. I distinctly remember thinking "Geez, how far away is this place, it's right there! How much further do I have to walk!" Something about that perspective trick was fascinating and annoying at the same time. It was impressive, though.
another issue to consider with the barnes collection is security. collections like this that are housed, well in houses, are vulnerable to art thieves. The Gardner museum and Russbourough House each contained collections with priceless pieces. These weren't the Thomas Crown Affair type thefts. they were smash and grab with masks and guns. Go read Matthew Hart's "The Irish Game" a great read.
I had no idea that Mr. Murcutt was ill. He was very young. My sincerest condolences to his family. He did some great work. His 5 dock house, IMHO, is one the best projects of the oughts. It's a game changer for inner ring suburbs and shows that Architects have something to offer the world.
Standing next to the tall bronze door of the Pantheon blew me away... It made me feel small and grasp how modern the Romans were.
"Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in"
Lars, not all of Philadelphia's museums are along the Benjamin Franklin Parkway. The are other quirky museums like the Barnes tucked away in the city and suburbs (although not many with such an amazing collection of paintings).
The issue for me is not really convenience or walking distance (nothing along the Parkway is that close to anything else anyway), rather fulfilling the Parkway's goal as it was envisioned. The Parkway was based on the Champs Elysees, but during its history it has had life along some section with large swaths of nothing in between. The site of the new Barnes was a youth jail, basically, and it didn't exactly bring any civic life to the street. The Parkway would benefit from anything that could spark it and make the long walk to the Art Museum more interesting and engaging. Also, the context for art is already well established, with much important civic sculputure already located here (see here). There was a plan, unfortunately scrapped, to have a Calder museum designed by Ando on the other side of the Parkway near the PMA. I see the presence of the new Barnes as a very good thing for the Parkway if for no other reason than to fulfill its original promise.
The other issue, that of losing a unique museum, IS more troubling, since museums that maintain a unique original context, particularly someone's home, are valuable and enriching to the history and culture of a place. Maybe leaving it alone would have been the best thing in some respects, but sadly it was never put up for a vote among the people who actually visited or took classes there, you know, the ones who actually count. I do understand people's anger over the move, but now that it's a moot point, I also see its petential value to the Parkway and the life of the city in general.
btw, the Calder museum would have been especially fitting, since the Parkway is framed by generations of Calders, a Philadelphia family: the William Penn statue on top of City Hall by the grandfather, the Swann Memorial Fountain at Logan Circle by the father, and the large mobile in the PMA lobby by the son.
cool history emilio... good to know more of the back story. i agree with everything you're sayin in that last long post. i do have a sister that lives in philly so i've been there a few times..but haven't fully experienced the city as a native has...just going off impressions of having walked around.
PS. also to add... i think the Salk was also a great experience of architecture..the siting in an office park more or less isn't...or the fountain at the end..but the project itself is so nice..something that doesn't seem to happen today..the idea of actually making interesting looking labs and offices...it felt like i was walking through a really nice thesis project..(i mean that as a compliment)
Sorry for the off-top:
What do you guys think about the SCi-arc? If I have an opporunity to go to the M.Arch I at Sci-arc and AA Diploma - what should I choose?I know it's very different, like apples and oranges, but may be you still could give me an advice, cause I'm gettin' crazy and thinking about it 24/7
(I'm admitted to WUSTL as well, but I think I won't attend)
the mutter museum is the best institution in philly!
Sipuska, we don't think about grad schools on thread central. We especially don't make recommendations on where to go. But if you want to discuss museums in philly and buildings that left you breathless, this is the place...
Emilio, I totally agree with your post above too, and BTW you should stick around TC! DOn't just drop by every 6 months, it's nice to have you here!
I too am sad about the Calder Museum tanking, it would have been a really nice piece in the Parkway puzzle.
vado: Draw, draw, draw. Just draw, it'll come back to you! I was in a meeting w/a student today and was pleasantly surprised at how easily my little sketches were flying out of my pen. Not all lovely, by a long shot, but they aided our conversation immensely.
Sipushka: if you want to end up lonely, frustrated, bitter, and an alcoholic, go to SCI-Arc; if you want to end up the same way but in Europe, go to AA.*
*I know, I've finally turned into that bitter old architect I met as a freshman who told me to get the hell out of the profession while I still could. Yet here I am: I became what he warned me about, only not divorced.
I'm actually not bitter about my own career, because I'm truthfully having fun. I'm bitter for the profession as a whole and especially the difficult roads recent and upcoming grads will have to face.
Wow, I just had one of the best weekends of my life. I really needed that. Yay!*
* Please don't take this to mean I am overlooking the struggle of my compatriots around the world or anything. Trust me I am not. But it's nice to have a nice weekend, anyway.
manta, I know the feeling. I haven't been posting facebook status updates lately because, well, life has been kind of great for me lately, and I'm really aware that it's been way less than great for a lot of the rest of the world, and I felt like it would seem insensitive. I'm glad to hear that someone else is doing well.
copper! I'm so glad to hear that things are going well for you after the frustration of the whole non-raise issue! And manta, you too, glad you had a nice break!
Please, everyone, what the world needs now is love sweet love. Hearing good news from others fills me with happylove.
The Facebook updates from a tropical beach, however, piss me off, so leave those out. I'm looking for more existential-happy, not vacation-happy.
hi all...
Busy day at office and then trying to wrap up another Pecha Kucha submission this evening.
Emilio agree with Donna, drop by more often.
Also, Sipushka89 what barry and donna said, although i know an Archinecter right now who is at WUSTL and really having a great experience. Don't like the school?
Hey copper and manta!
Wish i had something to contribute re: museums in philly. But haven't been to philly but once like 15 yrs ago. Liked it though.
I would totally agree however with concerns over too many look alike, blockbuster museums that don't rep the specifics of their time/place/context enough......
Hi nam! I, too, would like Emilio to stick around. Emilio I remember you & always appreciated your thoughtful comments when you used to be active around these here parts.
hey guys - did you you hear about that truly amazing investment opportunity? sounds too good to be true, IMO... too bad all my money's wrapped up with steorn...
i feel the same way when visiting most famous archtiecture sarah.
i remember visiting my first star-architect building in the 90's. A museum by Venturi in Texas actually. I was so dissapointed that I took a few years off of architecture school to go back to painting. OK, that's not true, it wasn't really Venturi's fault, but it did play a part. Very few buildings live up to expectations. Modern buildings especially seem to be not so good in that department.
For me most mind-blowing space was the roof of the duomo in milan. filled with sunbathers and picnickers i suddenly understood that a building could be used best in way that architects never plan for. It was amazing to me that the building was only memorable for the bit that was never planned for use at all (funny enough it was that realisation that made architecture make sense for the first time in years). the inside was nice but man the vibe of that place on the roof was really something. Better than the galleria down below even.
Of modern buildings the only building so far that continues to blow me away is the ferry teminal in yokohama by FOA. It really is an amazing place and an amazing design. Way better than the photos.
I think the issue with buildings never living up to expectations is that it is really difficult to photograph buildings without using a wonky lens and extreme perspective. I see it alot in renderings too.
Humans are naturally suppose to have a field of view of 100 degrees. The complicated aspect of this is that your vision is essentially 3D. Kind of like taking a really big TV screen and bending it into a dome.
However, taking a dome shaped photograph and fixing it into a rectangle makes the proportions of it very, very off.
When people generally see photos, they mostly encounter photos that have very little field of view and very little depth of field. The photos just look dull and flat. But because dull and flat photos are generally the standard in photos, we take those to be ore or less "fact."
I think this is because a photo of a particular object is only a singular snippet of our much larger field of view.
However, photographers and art types have realized using exaggerated effects make objects more interesting perspective. I generally always expect buildings to be much flatter and duller than their photographs.
it isn't just that for me though UG, its that all the spatial gymnastics of Ando for example are just boring in reality. Amazing plans, amazingly realised, and obviously the result of a lot of effort that is intellectually outstanding. But you know, unless you are into it, it kinda falls flat. like prog-rock ;-) architecture that is actually engaging at the human level is so rare. i don't think its a style thing. lots of horribly horrible buildings in rome and milan that don't work so good too.
maybe that is part of the lure of architecture without architects, or the recent love-fest with slums ?
For the few of you who are in Philadelphia, you might be interested in attending this event tonight, which I helped to organize.
Urbanism Now: Philadelphia2035
Responding to the Philadelphia2035 challenge to “create the future,” PennDesign will host an evening of civic engagement in the Philadelphia2035 planning process, bringing together the City of Philadelphia, professionals, academics, designers, and members of the public at the University of Pennsylvania.
The event will be launched by a presentation of the Philadelphia2035 draft through the lens of design by Alan Greenberger FAIA, Deputy Mayor for Planning and Economic Development, Director of Commerce, and Chairman of the PCPC and Alan Urek, Director of Strategic Planning and Policy Division of the PCPC. Featured respondants include Grahame Shane, Visiting Professor and Adjunct Faculty at Cooper Union and Columbia University, Ray Gastil, former planning director for Manhattan and Seattle, and Laurie Olin, Practice Professor of Landscape Architecture at PennDesign. A reception to enable the conversations to continue will follow the event.
The ongoing Conversations Series, begun in 2007, provides an open discussion forum for PennDesign Faculty, students and guests that seeks to frame topical interdisciplinary questions. Conversations provides a format where theorists, educators, and practitioners gather to define and debate key topics in all fields of design.
I've been thinking really hard about buildings I've been to, and can't remember any that really made me go WOW. However, all that said, here are my reactions...
I DID enjoy the doors at the Pantheon, and the beams in the porch, but it was because of the impressive size.
I really enjoyed Scarpa's museum in Venice. I liked the level changes, and the garden in the back.
Across the street from the Piano music hall in Rome, is a little church. It had a nice courtyard.
The church Sant Ignazio in Rome had breathtaking sculpture.
In all, it seems I enjoy the gardens or courtyards more than the interior spaces.
I like the treed courtyard at the Kimbal. I like the reflecting pools at the Modern Art museum in Ft Worth – I just wish they let people wade in them. They aren’t alive.
Thread Central
Nice post, snook. You're right, I rarely feel I'm giving my clients my best, even if I've give them all I can - we always have the feeling of being able to have done just a little more, just a bit more insight or effort would have made the project even better....
It's a good point about the work of TWBTA, Philip. The tombasil never could have had the power in a drawing that it has in real life. I have no doubt it will be an overall good experience to be in that building materially. The cultural history is just overwhelming. I do wonder what went through their minds when they took this commission? I've had one very culturally charged and difficult project in my life and it's very hard to say if what we did was a success or not - I know at least one prominent figure in the world of architecture thought it was NOT a success.
Anyway, just one more thing about this whole topic, because it points to something bigger in contemporary America: it's ironic that when I say a bunch of very powerful people - elites, by any definition - should not have ridden roughshod over a certain aspect of public good by claiming they were championing a different public good, I am the one who gets accused of being an elitist.
Emilio, this isn't directed only at you, because we all wear these particular blinders in various ways, myself included, and this is the biggest problem in our political world right now: the people in power confuse the regular folk in ways that detract from the main problem but instead cause infighting, all along stealing away what little power those folks have to make sure they keep themselves in their position.
Let's use Wisconsin as an example: say Gov. Walker's coalition promised a zillion in tax dollars to Taliesin if, in exchange, they gave power of the board over to the state - then the new board decided to relocate Taliesin West to Wisconsin so "more people could enjoy it" without having to trek out to the desert. Would we all sit still for that? Or try to find a silver lining in it?
Anyway, just one more thing about this whole topic, because it points to something bigger in contemporary America: it's ironic that when I say a bunch of very powerful people - elites, by any definition - should not have ridden roughshod over a certain aspect of public good by claiming they were championing a different public good, I am the one who gets accused of being an elitist.
This battle seems to go on in every architectural public hearing I have ever attended. Little of it having to actually with Architecture.
Someone always has an axe to grind. You can only imagine the things I have seen in all my lost years of Architecture, due to very powerful people championing causes. Most often Lawyers in these hearings are being paid far beyond the Architectural Fees for the
Whole of the Project.
Donna, I'm not blind to the fact that very powerful people, an elite, used their power to get this done. My point is that, in this one case, I don't think the result is so bad.
My other main point would be that, if you disapprove of the move because you think a unique museum is being destroyed, then it's a very valid argument, and I think there is much merit in it, because there's no denying that the Barnes as it stands now is a valuable artifact of Philadelphia history and of art history. But then, if you do take that stand, then no design, no matter how brilliant or mediocre, should satisfy you of the move, and sniping and faulting the people who will go to the new museum as a lazy and uncouth mob is also besides the point (and if not elitist, then just irrelevant to the argument).
Oh well, see everyone in a few months, I guess.
Well, I really didn't mean to imply that any- and everyone who goes to the new location is lazy, although I guess I said as much in one of those rants above. Not *everyone* will be, but some of them will be, which is true of any group of people grouped by any criteria anywhere.
I, for one, am too lazy to brave the chaos that is the new Colts stadium, because I don't give a damn about sports. If Brad Pitt came to speak about architecture, especially if shirtless, at Colts stadium, nothing would keep me away. ;-)
emilio...
'the uncouth masses' seems to be more your issue..at least i think if you read through all of the posts you are the one bringing it up... donna mentioned that there'd be a ton of new school groups going through in response to one of your points about how the staff currently is rude to pretty much everyone and how the museum somehow loathes having visitors... it's been your agenda and issue i think...from the very first post you made on the subject. maybe i misread..but your third post mentions,
"YES, that last statement is a dig at the visitors who go there NOW, to counterbalance all the insensitive digs made at all the people who will see the collection when it's on the Parkway, because, you know, they're only going to walk in there between bites of their cheesesteaks and then burp and walk out again"
it's been interesting hearing what you've had to say since you're a philadelphian and far closer to the whole subject than i... and also because we disagree on pretty much every point you've made... but it's nice to know that there's a diversity of opinions on the matter.
for instance:
1. i don't think that moving a museum so that it's in the same area as a bunch of other museums is a plus..it just makes it convenient to see alot of places all at the same time.. your example of paris sort of proves my point.. most museums are spread around the city...there are very few instances where you find two together... would the rodin museum benefit from being closer to the louvre or musee d'orsay?
2. i don't think that just because barnes purchased rare art that that makes it ok for powerful people to then come and stomp on his will for the sake of the public... i kind of feel like it's his right to do with his property what he wants... just because it's rare doesn't make it everyone's...
3. i can agree with you on the whole reservation thing...seems odd to make it so difficult to visit a museum..but then again..i don't think that gives people the right to make it easier just because it's hard.
4. your example of the 'original context' is potentially valid.. like saying where do you stop digging in rome? the fora or the borgo?... but in the artist's studio there aren't masterpieces hanging alongside those pieces... the studio is probably not a museum-like space and the artist probably didn't write in his will that nothing should be moved nor would he have the money to provide for the will to be upheld...although i agree that the foundation and neighbors made it hard to keep that going on forever into the future..
and donna, i'm one of those people that would trek to see the barnes..and hopefully will next weekend...but i also have run up the steps and done the rocky pose too.
Donna, You might need to get a pair of these for the, XXX-ray
Vision." Cause I will not loan out my pair. I'm sure they would enhance the Brad Pitt Experience.
for donna...
<sigh> Phillip, that's one of the best photos ever taken. In fact, I'd hang that photo next to a Matisse or Picasso any day.
I guess I could look it up, and I guess I will, but when I was a freshman in school, our design teacher took us to a museum out in the suburbs somewhere. I was bored, but I remember there were two buildings, and one had a large circular gallery space on a second floor. Is this the Barnes place you guys are talking about? Like I said, I was bored there. We were supposed to sketch the art, and I sketched a few sculptures, but then simply daydreamed. I was obviously impressed.
Ok, it wasn't the Barnes, and I can't find what it was. Any ideas?
Sarah, I think you mean the Woodmere Art Museum.
Taxes suck so bad.
i saw the film about barnes museum donna. was interesting. seems like most of the people involved are pretty hard to take, on either side of the aisle. sure does look like the govt stole a museum. until now i had thought it had more or less become financially unsustainable and that was why it had become vulnerable and taken over, but now looks more murky than that. bad leadership all round really.
i have no insight into the current barnes situation except that i remember the uproar when the barnes monograph was published in the early 90s: 'it will ruin the institution', 'against his wishes', etc.
seems to me it made luscious reproductions of amazing artwork available to poor people like me, who couldn't find an architecture job and could barely afford coffee. ...and just happened to be lucky enough to be working in a bookstore.
i love the rich experiences available in eccentric institutions, and i think the experiences offered in most contemporary museums are so scrubbed-clean that they become akin to seeing the work on tv. if the cret facility continues to operate in some capacity, i'd be more likely to go there and see what's going on than a mall-like museum on museum blvd.
but i'm sure the original work - for those who do pay attention to it - will be well cared-for and well-displayed in the new place and the institution will live on in a way that is more accessible.
maybe not the greatest situation, but also not a crisis. obviously i'm ambivalent.
Donna, that seems like it could be the museum.
Steven, I'm with you. Actually, TV and books have made museums and even buildings anti-climatic for me. I mean, you see a painting in real life, that you've seen in a book/slide/tv, and often the only thing I really appreciate is the size. Otherwise, it's simply a "Oh, look, there it is. Let me scratch that off my list..."
I'm still struck by how underwhelmed I was when I saw the Pantheon. Sure, it's neat, sure it's old, but I've seem it in books, so it didn't look any different, and I've been in larger covered spaces, so nothing new there. It was sad, really. I'm an architect at heart, and I'm not blown away? Talk about jaded.
Sarah, I'm actually intrigued by your non-reaction to the Pantheon. And honestly I don't think it's all that uncommon a reaction, but many people don't want to admit it. So tell us: what *was* the last thing you saw/visited that blew you away? And can you figure out why?
I for one loved the Pantheon but was completely surprised at my reaction to the Colosseum, which was overwhelming. I was so freaked out by the thought of all the bloodshed there I could hardly stand to be in the building - we basically took one cute pic of Angus and I fled outside - it was freaky and scary, and totally unexpected, in a BAD way.
Last overwhelming-in-a-good-way experience for me was Jose Obrerie's Miller House.
really sad new out of australia....
nicholas murcutt, glenn's son, passed away from cancer.
said glenn, "we only have our children on loan...46 years wasn't a long enough loan."
Wow, I feel completely the opposite. I was just discussing this with some friends this weekend - I basically have difficulty looking at any art reproductions in books anymore because when I see the works in person they are so luscious and bright or sombre or gobbed with paint or perfectly, exquisitely flat... even the very best print reproduction robs a painting of its texture, it's brilliance, its presence. (Besides which, the colors are usually so off that I have found print reproductions that were literally unrecognizable to me, only to read the caption and realize that it is actually I painting I myself have seen before in real life.) Paintings that make use of many many dabs of complementary colors in order to achieve an overall sense of one color (like the impressionists, particularly Cezanne & Van Gogh) often look completely different in repro - it's like the camera can pick up all the underlying greens, or the surface reds/pinks, but not both at once. Somehow our eyes can do this in person though...
sarah/donna...
i'm truly intrigued by feeling underwhelmed by the pantheon...or anything experienced from book/tv to real life...
there is sooooo much more to be experienced in real life... especially in a place like the pantheon...you don't get the quality of air..light..sound at all. i feel like you can feel the history.. also half the experience of the pantheon to me is how it's tucked away in the middle of the neighborhood..and how you can glimpse it from far away but only truly experience it when you're right in the piazza... but i guess i used to walk past it almost every day when i was in rome...so it sort of became an old friend. plus with real buildings there are so many details to see that aren't typically photographed...same with paintings really.
the last time i remember being blown away by a building was walking into st.peters... i remember sayin 'holy sh!t'...without even thinking about where i was.. (and it was inappropriate/appropriate at the same time really.)
most modern buildings don't have that effect on me anymore..but i always appreciate finding my way to projects...it makes the building that much better.
Plus I know nothing about the Barnes but this discussion was fascinating. I have a friend who worked for years on staff at the Isabella Gardner, as they were struggling with the decision of how to appropriately steward the museum into the future (and ultimately did decide to build an addition as we all know). They were interesting debates. I too am ambivalent about the question however because although I enjoyed seeing the Sargents et al within the context of the beautiful house, I also did truly feel that at times the house itself distracted me from a pure appreciation of the art. So although I enjoyed the communion of art/architecture, I did feel that the impact/appreciation of both was lessened somewhat by the compromise.
The discussion did raise some questions in my mind:
- How does everyone feel about the Barcelona Pavilion? Is that different because it was made to be temporary / demountable? Should it have stayed where it was? Should it have travelled more to reach a wider audience? I have to say that I was highly underwhelmed by its siting, but loved the building itself on visiting it.
- What about the galleries of the Louvre? There is so much art squeezed onto so little wall space that in many places I was straining my eyes to look at a painting hung 15' up, above 3 others. The greek statues in the antiquary wings are similarly crowded. Not ideal for art viewing in my opinion, and yet...
- The Paris point is moot because the Rodin IS in the immediate vicinity of the Musee d'Orsay (not to mention the Eiffel Tower & Musee des Invalides) and I would say enjoys a significant amount of visitors simply due to proximity. The Picasso on the other hand is a bit more out of the way and certainly has a much lower profile. Of course in Paris there are literally tourist attractions in nearly every quartier so not so comparable to Philly.
manta.
it's still a walk from the orsay to the rodin... it's not immediately adjacent as the museums are/will be in philly. at least that's how i remember it when i went there...i would imagine that rodin is famous enough in his own right to garner visits by itself...obviously hard to say. but i think that museum building adds to the experience...the sculptures being both in the house and out..and the beauty of the garden just makes it that much better...now imagine moving the sculptures in to a plain white gallery and what that would take away.
maybe it's more comparable to tschumi's park in terms of distance..or going to versailles..
anyway..the point is the idea of having museums all over appeals to me versus grouping them into one single area... so i think the point is still valid.
Donna, I will have to really think on that.
What I was impressed with from St. Peters was the sheer scale. I distinctly remember thinking "Geez, how far away is this place, it's right there! How much further do I have to walk!" Something about that perspective trick was fascinating and annoying at the same time. It was impressive, though.
another issue to consider with the barnes collection is security. collections like this that are housed, well in houses, are vulnerable to art thieves. The Gardner museum and Russbourough House each contained collections with priceless pieces. These weren't the Thomas Crown Affair type thefts. they were smash and grab with masks and guns. Go read Matthew Hart's "The Irish Game" a great read.
Holz,
I had no idea that Mr. Murcutt was ill. He was very young. My sincerest condolences to his family. He did some great work. His 5 dock house, IMHO, is one the best projects of the oughts. It's a game changer for inner ring suburbs and shows that Architects have something to offer the world.
Standing next to the tall bronze door of the Pantheon blew me away... It made me feel small and grasp how modern the Romans were.
Murcutt was 46! That's way too young...
its official. i have forgotten how to draw.
"Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in"
Lars, not all of Philadelphia's museums are along the Benjamin Franklin Parkway. The are other quirky museums like the Barnes tucked away in the city and suburbs (although not many with such an amazing collection of paintings).
The issue for me is not really convenience or walking distance (nothing along the Parkway is that close to anything else anyway), rather fulfilling the Parkway's goal as it was envisioned. The Parkway was based on the Champs Elysees, but during its history it has had life along some section with large swaths of nothing in between. The site of the new Barnes was a youth jail, basically, and it didn't exactly bring any civic life to the street. The Parkway would benefit from anything that could spark it and make the long walk to the Art Museum more interesting and engaging. Also, the context for art is already well established, with much important civic sculputure already located here (see here). There was a plan, unfortunately scrapped, to have a Calder museum designed by Ando on the other side of the Parkway near the PMA. I see the presence of the new Barnes as a very good thing for the Parkway if for no other reason than to fulfill its original promise.
The other issue, that of losing a unique museum, IS more troubling, since museums that maintain a unique original context, particularly someone's home, are valuable and enriching to the history and culture of a place. Maybe leaving it alone would have been the best thing in some respects, but sadly it was never put up for a vote among the people who actually visited or took classes there, you know, the ones who actually count. I do understand people's anger over the move, but now that it's a moot point, I also see its petential value to the Parkway and the life of the city in general.
...make that potential...
YES, EXACTLY! I really wish that they would build a subway line up the Parkway. The tunnel is already there!
btw, the Calder museum would have been especially fitting, since the Parkway is framed by generations of Calders, a Philadelphia family: the William Penn statue on top of City Hall by the grandfather, the Swann Memorial Fountain at Logan Circle by the father, and the large mobile in the PMA lobby by the son.
cool history emilio... good to know more of the back story. i agree with everything you're sayin in that last long post. i do have a sister that lives in philly so i've been there a few times..but haven't fully experienced the city as a native has...just going off impressions of having walked around.
PS. also to add... i think the Salk was also a great experience of architecture..the siting in an office park more or less isn't...or the fountain at the end..but the project itself is so nice..something that doesn't seem to happen today..the idea of actually making interesting looking labs and offices...it felt like i was walking through a really nice thesis project..(i mean that as a compliment)
Sorry for the off-top:
What do you guys think about the SCi-arc? If I have an opporunity to go to the M.Arch I at Sci-arc and AA Diploma - what should I choose?I know it's very different, like apples and oranges, but may be you still could give me an advice, cause I'm gettin' crazy and thinking about it 24/7
(I'm admitted to WUSTL as well, but I think I won't attend)
the mutter museum is the best institution in philly!
Sipuska, we don't think about grad schools on thread central. We especially don't make recommendations on where to go. But if you want to discuss museums in philly and buildings that left you breathless, this is the place...
Emilio, I totally agree with your post above too, and BTW you should stick around TC! DOn't just drop by every 6 months, it's nice to have you here!
I too am sad about the Calder Museum tanking, it would have been a really nice piece in the Parkway puzzle.
vado: Draw, draw, draw. Just draw, it'll come back to you! I was in a meeting w/a student today and was pleasantly surprised at how easily my little sketches were flying out of my pen. Not all lovely, by a long shot, but they aided our conversation immensely.
Sipushka: if you want to end up lonely, frustrated, bitter, and an alcoholic, go to SCI-Arc; if you want to end up the same way but in Europe, go to AA.*
*I know, I've finally turned into that bitter old architect I met as a freshman who told me to get the hell out of the profession while I still could. Yet here I am: I became what he warned me about, only not divorced.
Donna...you do need those XXX-RAY Glasses....so you will see the profession in a rose colored fashion...you will become less bitter.
or maybe just lots of rose'
I'm actually not bitter about my own career, because I'm truthfully having fun. I'm bitter for the profession as a whole and especially the difficult roads recent and upcoming grads will have to face.
Even the Not-so-recent.
Wow, I just had one of the best weekends of my life. I really needed that. Yay!*
* Please don't take this to mean I am overlooking the struggle of my compatriots around the world or anything. Trust me I am not. But it's nice to have a nice weekend, anyway.
manta, I know the feeling. I haven't been posting facebook status updates lately because, well, life has been kind of great for me lately, and I'm really aware that it's been way less than great for a lot of the rest of the world, and I felt like it would seem insensitive. I'm glad to hear that someone else is doing well.
copper! I'm so glad to hear that things are going well for you after the frustration of the whole non-raise issue! And manta, you too, glad you had a nice break!
Please, everyone, what the world needs now is love sweet love. Hearing good news from others fills me with happylove.
The Facebook updates from a tropical beach, however, piss me off, so leave those out. I'm looking for more existential-happy, not vacation-happy.
Michelle Obama is pretty awesome.
But there's never been a First Spouse better than Carla Bruni.
hi all...
Busy day at office and then trying to wrap up another Pecha Kucha submission this evening.
Emilio agree with Donna, drop by more often.
Also, Sipushka89 what barry and donna said, although i know an Archinecter right now who is at WUSTL and really having a great experience. Don't like the school?
Hey copper and manta!
Wish i had something to contribute re: museums in philly. But haven't been to philly but once like 15 yrs ago. Liked it though.
I would totally agree however with concerns over too many look alike, blockbuster museums that don't rep the specifics of their time/place/context enough......
Hi nam! I, too, would like Emilio to stick around. Emilio I remember you & always appreciated your thoughtful comments when you used to be active around these here parts.
hey guys - did you you hear about that truly amazing investment opportunity? sounds too good to be true, IMO... too bad all my money's wrapped up with steorn...
i feel the same way when visiting most famous archtiecture sarah.
i remember visiting my first star-architect building in the 90's. A museum by Venturi in Texas actually. I was so dissapointed that I took a few years off of architecture school to go back to painting. OK, that's not true, it wasn't really Venturi's fault, but it did play a part. Very few buildings live up to expectations. Modern buildings especially seem to be not so good in that department.
For me most mind-blowing space was the roof of the duomo in milan. filled with sunbathers and picnickers i suddenly understood that a building could be used best in way that architects never plan for. It was amazing to me that the building was only memorable for the bit that was never planned for use at all (funny enough it was that realisation that made architecture make sense for the first time in years). the inside was nice but man the vibe of that place on the roof was really something. Better than the galleria down below even.
Of modern buildings the only building so far that continues to blow me away is the ferry teminal in yokohama by FOA. It really is an amazing place and an amazing design. Way better than the photos.
Most architects feel this way?
Photographs of art is one thing.
Photographs of buildings is another.
I think the issue with buildings never living up to expectations is that it is really difficult to photograph buildings without using a wonky lens and extreme perspective. I see it alot in renderings too.
Humans are naturally suppose to have a field of view of 100 degrees. The complicated aspect of this is that your vision is essentially 3D. Kind of like taking a really big TV screen and bending it into a dome.
However, taking a dome shaped photograph and fixing it into a rectangle makes the proportions of it very, very off.
When people generally see photos, they mostly encounter photos that have very little field of view and very little depth of field. The photos just look dull and flat. But because dull and flat photos are generally the standard in photos, we take those to be ore or less "fact."
I think this is because a photo of a particular object is only a singular snippet of our much larger field of view.
However, photographers and art types have realized using exaggerated effects make objects more interesting perspective. I generally always expect buildings to be much flatter and duller than their photographs.
it isn't just that for me though UG, its that all the spatial gymnastics of Ando for example are just boring in reality. Amazing plans, amazingly realised, and obviously the result of a lot of effort that is intellectually outstanding. But you know, unless you are into it, it kinda falls flat. like prog-rock ;-) architecture that is actually engaging at the human level is so rare. i don't think its a style thing. lots of horribly horrible buildings in rome and milan that don't work so good too.
maybe that is part of the lure of architecture without architects, or the recent love-fest with slums ?
jump - I think most people are disappointed when they visit pomo bldgs.
crap - I had the best image for 423, but I can't find it.
[shameless plug]
For the few of you who are in Philadelphia, you might be interested in attending this event tonight, which I helped to organize.
Urbanism Now: Philadelphia2035
Responding to the Philadelphia2035 challenge to “create the future,” PennDesign will host an evening of civic engagement in the Philadelphia2035 planning process, bringing together the City of Philadelphia, professionals, academics, designers, and members of the public at the University of Pennsylvania.
The event will be launched by a presentation of the Philadelphia2035 draft through the lens of design by Alan Greenberger FAIA, Deputy Mayor for Planning and Economic Development, Director of Commerce, and Chairman of the PCPC and Alan Urek, Director of Strategic Planning and Policy Division of the PCPC. Featured respondants include Grahame Shane, Visiting Professor and Adjunct Faculty at Cooper Union and Columbia University, Ray Gastil, former planning director for Manhattan and Seattle, and Laurie Olin, Practice Professor of Landscape Architecture at PennDesign. A reception to enable the conversations to continue will follow the event.
The ongoing Conversations Series, begun in 2007, provides an open discussion forum for PennDesign Faculty, students and guests that seeks to frame topical interdisciplinary questions. Conversations provides a format where theorists, educators, and practitioners gather to define and debate key topics in all fields of design.
[/shameless plug]
And, now for something a little different:
I've been thinking really hard about buildings I've been to, and can't remember any that really made me go WOW. However, all that said, here are my reactions...
I DID enjoy the doors at the Pantheon, and the beams in the porch, but it was because of the impressive size.
I really enjoyed Scarpa's museum in Venice. I liked the level changes, and the garden in the back.
Across the street from the Piano music hall in Rome, is a little church. It had a nice courtyard.
The church Sant Ignazio in Rome had breathtaking sculpture.
In all, it seems I enjoy the gardens or courtyards more than the interior spaces.
I like the treed courtyard at the Kimbal. I like the reflecting pools at the Modern Art museum in Ft Worth – I just wish they let people wade in them. They aren’t alive.
I may think of more, if y'all want me too.
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