It seems there's a lot of communication involved when dealing with clients and I often feel I am giving out a lot of information and advice for free which also takes up a lot of my time.
First of all, is it legitimate to ask for money when I have not produced any drawings yet but have given out quite a bit of communication?
Second, how do you ask for money when there is no tangible product yet. Am I not, after all, giving out "intellectual property"?
In my frustration, I have somehow inartfully asked for payment and have not seen anything yet. I almost feel the client relationship is a little fragile now.
Clients need results as in produced drawings with all client mandated revisions - clients have the upper hand - they will just go to someone else - bottom line is to exceed their expectations then they will be more willing to pay.
I'm dealing with a client now who does not understand why he has to pay for schematic/preliminary drawings. His take on it is that we should do it for free in hope to get free work. So I asked him (he is a car dealership owner) if I can test drive his car for few years in hope I buy it! I put it in his perspective for him to understand that I spent quite a few hours on the project.
I'm meeting with him tomorrow for him to drop off the check as I'm holding and not responding to the correction letter. I'm really curious what he is bringing, because if not the full amount...I will be paying my deductible for my attorney next week.
they aren't paying you for drawings or IP. they're paying for a service. you have an expertise in building design and codes and other useful knowledge they can benefit from.
there have a been a couple times when i had a client balk a bit about my fees, which tend to be really small, and i remind them that they pay lawyers a lot more. i find that is understandable and relateable to a lot of people.
My fees are low so for me to even ask the amount that it only seemed right for me to ask.
We are already moving into Construction Documents phase.
I would like to add that the information I did give out seemed very crucial in getting the project built, that they could easily take that information and just have a draftsman or contractor draw up the project and have it built.
This is such vital intellectual property... like a lawyer's information.. They could easily not pay the full amount when I'm so invested in this project being done properly.
yes, you can get paid during the process before you hand anything over. if you have a set fee, let's say $100, and it takes 2 months to finish, i think it's common everywhere that you charge $50 the first month and $50 the second (assuming you did 1/2 the work the first month). i would suggest a set billing schedule, probably by the month, and charge based either on time if you're working based on time or percentage complete.
I often have detailed conversations about what a project might entail - even to the point of doing a quick (1 hour or less) zoning study and rough cost estimate. I consider this a marketing expense, rather than an opportunity to make a few extra bucks over the course of the year.
I've done this with people who don't hire me, but do end up recommending me to their friends because I was so helpful.
I've also done it for people who seem happy to talk for hours and glean as much info as they can from me. The instant I feel they may be taking advantage of my generosity, I politely tell them that I've given them as much information as I can w/out having them sign a contract and actually hire me.
If you use common sense and your intuition, it's pretty easy to discern who's honestly looking for reasonable information, and who's looking to get something for free.
I do not do any designing w/out a signed contract and deposit in my bank account. Never. Ever.
From what OP's said, he/she's doing CD's without having been paid yet? That's crazy, and you're asking to get ripped off. Stop work immediately, and inform your 'client' that you won't be able to spend any more time on the project without a signed contract, and payment for services to date. Don't be surprised if they don't pay and don't hire you.
If that happens, w/out a contract you'll never see a dollar from them. But this is going to happen sooner or later anyway, so do it now before you waste more time/money on a lost cause, and consider it an expensive business lesson.
beggar’s waltzn. An involuntary and often impromptu form of theater, performed on demand and often without rehearsal, usually in an effort to get paid for work that one has completed.
curtkram: "yes, you can get paid during the process before you hand anything over. if you have a set fee, let's say $100, and it takes 2 months to finish, i think it's common everywhere that you charge $50 the first month and $50"
yikes! $100 for a 2 month work? no wonder architects are being treated like dirt.. we shoot ourselves on the foot.
I learned to keep it pretty simple. Of course, it comes down to who the client is & how they behave - but ultimately, this is pretty straightforward. For smaller projects, I split the estimated bill in half (based upon an itemized hours worked). 1st half up front for getting the project rolling (and so I'm not working for free), and the other half at drawing / permitting submittal. I'm also careful to add language in a small contract that - if the project goes over the estimated budget - I wil inform the client immediately and seek to resolve this but also intend to get paid for this amount. Clients that don't pay are not worth your time and you are definitely not the first or last person who will have to put up with this crap. Good luck.
if you haven't been paid and your contracts state that you are to be paid at each phase send letter to client stating that unless you are paid by x date no more work will be done and after y days contract will be terminated for nonpayment. you own the work if your scofflaw client takes your work to another designer then the client is using your copyrighted work and the designer is in violation of ethical standards and , well , that's what lawyers are for.
Sounds like your contract spells out a payment requirement, but for whatever reason, you are apparently ignoring it. Don't do any furthur work until you get this thing back on track. You may have some trouble getting paid for work already performed since client will claim that the phased payment plan was, in effect, waived. But don't dig yourself in any deeper. If the client is legit, they'll pay. If not, they won't and you'll probably just have to chalk it up to an expensive lesson. This is so common in this profession on smaller jobs it's sickening.
First off you ask for a retainer....tells you if people are real or just scumbags... min, 10 percent of project.. If a small project ask for more...just to cover you behind. Cause on little projects you typically loose money. It is that second job for the client where you will most likely make money. They will understand the concept of a retainer. A friend of mine says set your own fee based on satisfaction....kind of like a waiter....20 percent of the cost of the project is I do you a really good job. I have never figured out if it worked for him.
50% retainer, monthly progress billing, if they are more than 30 days behind stop work until paid. Bill also at submission deadlines. No drawings unless paid in full.
And, the most critical thing: every time you talk to them make sure you talk about money. Not just what they owe you, but also the project budget and how you are respecting their money.
Aug 7, 13 8:52 pm ·
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how do get the clients to pay?
Sorry but I guess I'm a novice at this.
It seems there's a lot of communication involved when dealing with clients and I often feel I am giving out a lot of information and advice for free which also takes up a lot of my time.
First of all, is it legitimate to ask for money when I have not produced any drawings yet but have given out quite a bit of communication?
Second, how do you ask for money when there is no tangible product yet. Am I not, after all, giving out "intellectual property"?
In my frustration, I have somehow inartfully asked for payment and have not seen anything yet. I almost feel the client relationship is a little fragile now.
Clients need results as in produced drawings with all client mandated revisions - clients have the upper hand - they will just go to someone else - bottom line is to exceed their expectations then they will be more willing to pay.
http://vimeo.com/22053820
I'm dealing with a client now who does not understand why he has to pay for schematic/preliminary drawings. His take on it is that we should do it for free in hope to get free work. So I asked him (he is a car dealership owner) if I can test drive his car for few years in hope I buy it! I put it in his perspective for him to understand that I spent quite a few hours on the project.
I'm meeting with him tomorrow for him to drop off the check as I'm holding and not responding to the correction letter. I'm really curious what he is bringing, because if not the full amount...I will be paying my deductible for my attorney next week.
they aren't paying you for drawings or IP. they're paying for a service. you have an expertise in building design and codes and other useful knowledge they can benefit from.
there have a been a couple times when i had a client balk a bit about my fees, which tend to be really small, and i remind them that they pay lawyers a lot more. i find that is understandable and relateable to a lot of people.
My fees are low so for me to even ask the amount that it only seemed right for me to ask.
We are already moving into Construction Documents phase.
I would like to add that the information I did give out seemed very crucial in getting the project built, that they could easily take that information and just have a draftsman or contractor draw up the project and have it built.
This is such vital intellectual property... like a lawyer's information.. They could easily not pay the full amount when I'm so invested in this project being done properly.
yes, you can get paid during the process before you hand anything over. if you have a set fee, let's say $100, and it takes 2 months to finish, i think it's common everywhere that you charge $50 the first month and $50 the second (assuming you did 1/2 the work the first month). i would suggest a set billing schedule, probably by the month, and charge based either on time if you're working based on time or percentage complete.
What does your contract say?
My contract says each phase needs payment prior to services for that phase
Have a signed copy of it with you when you meet.
You're in CDs and you haven't been paid anything? I need some drawings done ... when can you start?
Nice one, poop.
I often have detailed conversations about what a project might entail - even to the point of doing a quick (1 hour or less) zoning study and rough cost estimate. I consider this a marketing expense, rather than an opportunity to make a few extra bucks over the course of the year.
I've done this with people who don't hire me, but do end up recommending me to their friends because I was so helpful.
I've also done it for people who seem happy to talk for hours and glean as much info as they can from me. The instant I feel they may be taking advantage of my generosity, I politely tell them that I've given them as much information as I can w/out having them sign a contract and actually hire me.
If you use common sense and your intuition, it's pretty easy to discern who's honestly looking for reasonable information, and who's looking to get something for free.
I do not do any designing w/out a signed contract and deposit in my bank account. Never. Ever.
From what OP's said, he/she's doing CD's without having been paid yet? That's crazy, and you're asking to get ripped off. Stop work immediately, and inform your 'client' that you won't be able to spend any more time on the project without a signed contract, and payment for services to date. Don't be surprised if they don't pay and don't hire you.
If that happens, w/out a contract you'll never see a dollar from them. But this is going to happen sooner or later anyway, so do it now before you waste more time/money on a lost cause, and consider it an expensive business lesson.
No contract. No work. 50% down.
beggar’s waltz n. An involuntary and often impromptu form of theater, performed on demand and often without rehearsal, usually in an effort to get paid for work that one has completed.
It's in the book.
curtkram: "yes, you can get paid during the process before you hand anything over. if you have a set fee, let's say $100, and it takes 2 months to finish, i think it's common everywhere that you charge $50 the first month and $50"
yikes! $100 for a 2 month work? no wonder architects are being treated like dirt.. we shoot ourselves on the foot.
we need this designer's attitude in the video.
https://vimeo.com/22053820
I learned to keep it pretty simple. Of course, it comes down to who the client is & how they behave - but ultimately, this is pretty straightforward. For smaller projects, I split the estimated bill in half (based upon an itemized hours worked). 1st half up front for getting the project rolling (and so I'm not working for free), and the other half at drawing / permitting submittal. I'm also careful to add language in a small contract that - if the project goes over the estimated budget - I wil inform the client immediately and seek to resolve this but also intend to get paid for this amount. Clients that don't pay are not worth your time and you are definitely not the first or last person who will have to put up with this crap. Good luck.
if you haven't been paid and your contracts state that you are to be paid at each phase send letter to client stating that unless you are paid by x date no more work will be done and after y days contract will be terminated for nonpayment. you own the work if your scofflaw client takes your work to another designer then the client is using your copyrighted work and the designer is in violation of ethical standards and , well , that's what lawyers are for.
access, $100 was an arbitrary number for illustration. if you're only doing a half hour of work each month, it's a reasonable fee.
Sounds like your contract spells out a payment requirement, but for whatever reason, you are apparently ignoring it. Don't do any furthur work until you get this thing back on track. You may have some trouble getting paid for work already performed since client will claim that the phased payment plan was, in effect, waived. But don't dig yourself in any deeper. If the client is legit, they'll pay. If not, they won't and you'll probably just have to chalk it up to an expensive lesson. This is so common in this profession on smaller jobs it's sickening.
Good luck.
First off you ask for a retainer....tells you if people are real or just scumbags... min, 10 percent of project.. If a small project ask for more...just to cover you behind. Cause on little projects you typically loose money. It is that second job for the client where you will most likely make money. They will understand the concept of a retainer. A friend of mine says set your own fee based on satisfaction....kind of like a waiter....20 percent of the cost of the project is I do you a really good job. I have never figured out if it worked for him.
And, the most critical thing: every time you talk to them make sure you talk about money. Not just what they owe you, but also the project budget and how you are respecting their money.
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