So what drafting software should I get? I do almost exclusively residential remodels working hand in hand with the contractor, so I need only to do the most basic drawings: plans, RCPs, wall elevations, custom cabinetry details.
I have previously (and poorly) used Sketch Up for little walk-through animations, to delightful responses from my clients, so I may want to pursue that approach a bit more.
Also, I did get Parallels and XP, so I can go the pc program route if need be.
Advice, anyone? I know there are a zillion threads on this topic already, but given my post count I've decided to pull rank and post one of my own. Forgive me.
LB:
Vectorworks is getting better and better with each release, you might want to check them out. I have 2008 but rarely use it, but do prefer it over working in ACAD via Parallels.
makeArchitecture:
what about BOA?
(I used Architrion back in the day and almost worked for Nader doing BOA tech support back when he owned the software)
I last saw him in Cambridge about 4 years ago when I got BOA users from Europe, the US and Latin America together for an all-day conference in Coolidge Corner.
BOA was way ahead of Revit, Archicad, et al..
It's stood still too long. I had a beta of the MacIntel version. It's being run out of France now.
It might be worth it to look into any of these programs:
progeCAD, Highdesign, BricsCAD. I'm not sure which of these is really for macs, but it's worth checking them out, considering that a license for each of them costs you about 250 bucks...
Yeah, this was back in '01 when I had first moved to Boston for school. I had worked with Architrion extensively (2D and 3D) at that point and was put in contact with him. Since pretty much all the BOA users were Architrion users I was shown the software and asked to get comfortable with it - didn't end up doing the tech work because I decided to focus on my schooling instead. I agree that it was ahead of its time, but it just stagnated in Cambridge and I think the same is happening in France.
lb: Vectorworks may be getting better with each passing revision, but it still has a host of issues with it that unless there is a major programming change the problems integral to the software will continue to be a hindrance to anyone used to organized and efficient drawings. As I have also mentioned in other threads, it promotes sloppy/disorganized files. I hate the program, and so does everyone else in this office. To give you an idea of the kind of person who likes VW, the now ex-principle was a natural contrarian and used to draft on his laptop with the touchpad and a 12" screen - and his set organization and thoroughness of his sets have cause a whole host of issues for the firm. Like I said, now ex-principal. Also, at $1600 you are almost halfway to the ArchiCADs and Revits of the world, either of which are 100x more usable and useful.
Since the virulent anger at vectorworks in our office got so bad (I was actually one of the tamer complainers) I was entrusted in coming up with a comparison for our migration to a new software. I have a chart & everything. email me & i'll send it over.
username, I like the sound of "250 bucks". We had considered something like Chief Architect not long ago - I honestly think a residential cad/builder oriented program is all we need, which is what it sounds like those cheaper programs are. I think something like that might be perfect for us.
evilp, I'm sure I'll get stickers, shall I send them to you? ;-)
Pixel, VW seems like the obvious option. One question (for everyone): my partner is *heavily resistant* to change, and he is/was most proficient at, believe it or not, Autocad R14. What is going to feel familiar for him - or is that a ridiculous notion and he just needs to suck it up and move on?!
crowbert: Sending you an email now. THANK you for the offer to share your research!
Vectorworks introduced the object info palate to cad programs. It is quirky but making the claim that "unless there is a major programming change the problems integral to the software will continue to be a hindrance to anyone used to organized and efficient drawings" is a little bizarre. What are you talking about? People make "organized and efficient drawings" on VW everyday. Revit doesn't even have layers which I think is a plus but that creates another set of issues.
perhaps also look at PowerCAD. I've never used it before, but a friend of mine that was quite computer-saavy swore by it as the best and easiest CAD package he'd ever used, Mac or PC.
Training is really important and I trained with a college friend of Richard Diehl. (i also was an Archicad beta tester and have a hand in designing another software package called BOA.) Whichever program you go with, there should be a professional trainer near you and I suggest that you invest in a little quality training. It can pay off.
I've got 400+ classes (which are Layers to the rest of the known world - confusing right off the bat) on millwork drawings because there's some automatic renaming and referencing function that doesnt realize that the a layer on the referenced file is the same from one file to the next. VW does not allow you do do that unless you sever (and then cut and paste!) the drawing, thus eliminating the reason for referencing the drawing in the first place.
And referencing copies the whole file in each referred file, which means now each drawing has all of the referenced drawings sucking up the programs memory. Working on one particularly bloated file, I've had time to comb through Archinect for 90+ sec. at a time every ten minutes as the program backed up to the server because of its bandwidth girth. And it crashed all the freaking time because I was using too new of a computer with an older version. The newer versions don't always solve that though.
Oh, and there are no Layersets, so navigating and turning those 400+ [layers] on and off is a bear.
So, since every single individual variation wants to be on its own [layer] and you wind up with either - massively bloated files, or taking big chunks of time to keep the drawing clean. Either problem is exacerbated by the fact that it doesn't operate like AutoCAD and most people out there don't know how to use it VW.
The symbols and its method of organization is atrocious, neither blocks or Revit/ArchiCAD symbols, but rather something that took the worst from both systems and combined them into one nearly unusable mess. Composite walls aren't much better (and your need to do math trying to determine the center of a material's location in the wall relative to the center of the wall itself turns seconds into tens of minutes)
Don't get me started on groups, and their general unusability. ArchiCAD's group method is beautifully simple because it allows you to toggle it on and off. I never realized how much I missed that until it was gone. I should also point out that a symbol or group can be partially or wholly different [layer] than its constituent members. Combine that with 400 [layers] and you can spend an hour trying to find why the door swings won't turn on (or off).
The 3D is basically unusable in practice. I've seen student work that looks okay (but inferior to work I did on DataCad/3DStudio 2, to tell you my age) but nothing that seems to indicate that it would be usable in practice.
Did I mention that I am one of the people in my office who was considered to be one of the non-haters?
i'm a "mostly" happy vectorworks user. if i'm not mistaken, crowbert and I have had a bit of back and forth on this issue and we are decidedly not on the same page, but by and large IMHO VW will do everything you need it to do LB.
i spent a few years working in a residential-specific arch firm on vectorworks and drawing organization was never an issue. sounds to me like it was either training problems or user-error gone awry in crowbert's office, but i could be wrong.
no matter what package you use, there will be complaints, and there certainly are with VW, but in general i find it an intuitively easy program to use, and contrary to crowberts comments, i find drawing organization and cleanliness to be superb.
now, font control on the other hand, drives me fucking batty.
know anybody with a copy you can *use* for a coupla' weeks and see for yourself?
pm me if you've got specific questions...be happy to help.
Wow - I'm glad you started this Thread Liberty. I'm a pc user and I swear by it, but I also believe in being multi-platformed because well you never know. And yes I know that you can run parallels and dud and run programs on either platforms.
Today I just made an order for the software I need to continue doing my job vectorworks, sketchup, and adobe cs3 were top on the list. And I began thinking that it didn't really matter what platform I was using anymore. VW is brill...I've used it back when it was MiniCAD and I was having a hard time getting my nogin around ACAD (2|4 biatches). Anyway I liked it...I was even more impressed when working on a project with a mate he sat my in front of what was now VectorWorks 11, and I almost wet my pants. Spec'ing became a dream and things I really didn't like doing before were fun and interesting. The scripts for VW are cool - you can order them directly from the vendor (he had marvin windows and it allowed him to custom, and order without switching sofware). It makes a difference with smaller practices and believe it to be the way to go
Notwithstanding VW2008 is $1600 - ahah...but you can still buy a back version and an upgrade for only $500. I'm making a case...
I made the transition from autocad to mac / powercadd about 4 months ago.. I wouldn't switch to it now, it feels like an archaic program, something from the 90s that's had dozens of half assed bits and pieces added to it. most mac cad programs are like that...as is autocad, but at least with autocad the pieces are less half assed.
for smaller projects on a mac, I'd use Adobe illustrator with a plugin called cadtools, and maybe a 3rd party cad translator if needed. Easy to learn if you know some adobe programs like photoshop already.
sounds to me now like crowbert has a wide array of specific issues that preclude his efficient use of VW's native capabilities while exacerbating its deficiencies.
in my work i don't have a need for 400 layers or classes, and for *lots* of residential jobs of a modest scale, you don't either.
the "layerset" problem is solved through the correct use of Saved Views which is a piece of cake if you know how to use it correctly.
the referencing issue with regards to classes is a pain, but for me it's no big deal because anything i reference is typically shell stuff and not part of my scope anyway, so i either go back to the original file and delete anything offending or i just scale back the opacity, problem solved for me.
file sizes are definitely an issue, but unless you're consulting with a huge team of people, each of whom requires their own custom export, then it's not really all that much of a time-suck. most of the time i'm just posting pdf's to somebody's FTP and they do the plotting anyway. when there's only one architect and one MEP team, custom-exports (where required) are not an issue for me...i do them all the time.
group protocols could stand to be improved, sure, but once you get used to HOW it works, you find ways to deal with the good and the bad with regards to class visibility.
you can't be inflexible with regards to your working methods...a new/different piece of software requires new/different thinking. there will always be frustration and pain in learning anything new...
(i second the use of manana's hotdoor/cadtools suggestion. another firm i used to work at had that thing going on. some very pretty drawings can be made that way, with excellent control of all visibilities, lineweights/colors, etc.)
all those bad things aside, VW's sheet-layers, viewports, live-sections/elevations, and page-layout abilities pretty much rock.*
* - as much as any piece of software can *rock* which is not really that much.
The worst part about VW is trying to clean up accumulated errors in drawings. Errant [layers] never seem to go away and continuously trap unsuspecting information. Once it gets to a certain point the program, your library and reference material becomes unusable.
Admittedly a good chunk of these problems started out from a lack of a firm hand in office standards, but I have never seen an office so mired in the inability to produce a clean and efficient drawing as I do here. Every step of the way the program fought any attempts to clean up the files and standards. Even the drawings from the time of the ex-principal, who supposedly did try to keep up with office standards look byzantine whenever I need to go back and reference them. While its a cheaper program, I believe it to be cheaper because its a throughly half-assed program, not because it tries to be efficient and specific in what it does. It tries to do to much with to little and one its most glaring shortcomings is usability - at times the program itself seems to revel in its contrarian nature.
In other words, you have to work at it to keep your drawings clean, which should be mostly taken care of by the program, and not by the people.
If you are planning on doing billable work with this program, $4-5G times two seats is minor compared to the time you waste keeping on top of office standards or dealing with inefficient files. Revit can mesh nicely with ACAD, although you do lose some advantages of the BIM utilities.
If you have Mac 10.5, VW prior to 12.5 will not work. It might open by your new OS garbles the data beyond recognition. We had to upgrade the software just to read files, and keep an old mac around to translate our earlier files because 12.5 won't read them properly.
Additionally, nobody hates VW like someone coming from ACAD, if the experience at my firm is any indication. Just so you know. Granted, they don't usually like moving to ArchiCAD or Revit either, but the hatred does not subside with VW, but rather only seems to grow stronger.
mighty, coming from archiCad and going to Revit, I can tell you, all those things rock much harder in either of those two programs than in VW. Its not even the same sport in my opinion.
But my main point is, if you try to integrate any of your learned knowledge from other programs into VW, you are in for a load of hurt. Not only does it require you to forget what you have learned from other programs, it seems to revel in the fact that it does things differently. You know what, ACAD is the 800# gorilla out there, and you don't necessarily have to like it, you can make your program better than it, but you can't refute that fact. And VW tries to and makes itself the worst of the two in the process.
If it's the firm I am thinking of, I have heard things about it. Or are you on South Wabash, like 1100 s, and I have heard things about that place too.
Oh, ACAD can be a beast of a program too - no bones about it. But 99.99% of the CAD monkeys out there know the program, and there's a bunch of after-market script you can use to clean up your drawings. I have plenty of things I think should be better in ACAD as well, but they do not seem endemic to the program itself. Honestly, my little screed here is nothing compared to the complaints about the program from some of my coworkers.
Goodness, makeArch, you must have heard really seriously bad things if you can figure out where someone works from a post!
crowbert I emailed you, and I promise if you email me back I won't reveal where you work! Although I reveal myself on my profile page I definitely respect everyone else's privacy. Especially when it comes to bitching about the office!
A friend of mine went to interview at one of the Vectorworks-using places I mentioned and said that it was the most disorganized mess that he had ever seen. And he was coming from Beeby's office which keeps its CAD monkeys in far from humane conditions.
we've been here before crowbert, and i'm not like a big corporate apologist for NNA or anything, but seriously man, the only reason VW tries to do anything like acad is because it is the 800# gorilla.
but back to LB's issue at hand, if you are a small practice, have modest jobs with small teams of consultants, VW can do EVERYTHING you need it to do with a minimum of frustration once you get the hang of it, which is about two weeks.
i think we can both agree that if you're a mid/large firm with lots of employees whose drawing standards cannot be monitored (dnager will robbins!) and you are trying company wide to make a shift to VW from acad, then yes, obviously there are going to be lots of problems.
but sya, for instance, that your small firm takes on employees and grows into a modest sized firm with sizable projects: it's my opinion that VW can still accomplish what you need it to accomplish.
better than archicad? don't know, never used it. better than acad? IMHO yes, but I learned VW first.
I worked in one office where everyone complained endlessly about VW, including me. We HATED it. But it turned out that most of the reason people hated it was because they didn't know how to use it fully.
Then I moved to another office where they understood how to use the program, and I realized that many VW users use like 20% of the functionality of the program.
Moral 1: VW is a good program if you know how to use it.
Moral 2: Make sure you know how to use it before you launch into a project.
Poczatek, isn't Revit a huge expensive (pc) program suitable for doing airports and hospitals and the like? I don't want/need that. I do residential kitchen remodels.
farwest, that's a large point of my query here: I don't want a program I will be using 20% of. I'd rather have something really simple that I can utilize most of its functionality, and since I'm not (as stated) doing airports, I don't need a lot of tricks.
Hopefully I'll never be an employee again, though if that comes to pass, I suppose learning Revit would be smart.
"farwest, that's a large point of my query here: I don't want a program I will be using 20% of. I'd rather have something really simple that I can utilize most of its functionality, and since I'm not (as stated) doing airports, I don't need a lot of tricks."
That's why getting some training really helps.
I second what farwest has said.
Has PH moved onto Revit?
Archicad is a very cool program and is Mac native. It's overkill for kitchen remodeling/additions.
for what it seems you're looking for, it plus SketchUP may be just the ticket. Also, if your partner uses Photoshop or any other of their products, it may be a much shallower learning curve.
I have Revit at Home and use ArchiCad at work.
LB > Airports...that's funny. It's more about sheet organization, tags, schedules, etc - the stuff you get bogged-down with when you want to be designing....ArchiCAD has same features, but seems more like a combination of Adobe Illustrator and CAD....it's too spongey to me and screws you when you really apply some horsepower.
Plain-old Autocad might be your best bet, as it is just about file / folder management at that point - is your mac a dual Intel?
mac drafting: a personal request from an old timer
So what drafting software should I get? I do almost exclusively residential remodels working hand in hand with the contractor, so I need only to do the most basic drawings: plans, RCPs, wall elevations, custom cabinetry details.
I have previously (and poorly) used Sketch Up for little walk-through animations, to delightful responses from my clients, so I may want to pursue that approach a bit more.
Also, I did get Parallels and XP, so I can go the pc program route if need be.
Advice, anyone? I know there are a zillion threads on this topic already, but given my post count I've decided to pull rank and post one of my own. Forgive me.
Check out:
http://architoshforums.forest.net/ And be kid to the moderators. ;-)
I use an older copy of Vectorworks for my 2-d stuff and it works great. PowerCADD is another program and I think it's a little cheaper.
There are other 2-d programs like highdesign but I don't know how well they work.
Archicad is probably overkill for whay you want to do. And it's $4k.
Good luck!
that's kind ;-)
Thanks, make - I will check it out. And yeah, I should have mentioned: I'm on a budget. $4k is beyond it! ;-)
vectorworks
sketchup
adobe cs3
come to think of it I use the Adobe stuff almost exclusively for non-architectural projects. almost.
Congrats - now everything you buy from here out will cost more! Did you get any cool stickers with it?
killjoy.
"now everything you buy from here out will cost more!"
If you're a careful shopper, that's not true. And I don't have any virus problems... And I can do all of my own IT stuff.
You know the drill, EvilP!!!
Sorry LB - I used to work on a MAC; to each their own.
LB:
Vectorworks is getting better and better with each release, you might want to check them out. I have 2008 but rarely use it, but do prefer it over working in ACAD via Parallels.
makeArchitecture:
what about BOA?
(I used Architrion back in the day and almost worked for Nader doing BOA tech support back when he owned the software)
is archicad still around?
Pixelwhore,
You know Nader? WOW!
I last saw him in Cambridge about 4 years ago when I got BOA users from Europe, the US and Latin America together for an all-day conference in Coolidge Corner.
BOA was way ahead of Revit, Archicad, et al..
It's stood still too long. I had a beta of the MacIntel version. It's being run out of France now.
It might be worth it to look into any of these programs:
progeCAD, Highdesign, BricsCAD. I'm not sure which of these is really for macs, but it's worth checking them out, considering that a license for each of them costs you about 250 bucks...
Yeah, this was back in '01 when I had first moved to Boston for school. I had worked with Architrion extensively (2D and 3D) at that point and was put in contact with him. Since pretty much all the BOA users were Architrion users I was shown the software and asked to get comfortable with it - didn't end up doing the tech work because I decided to focus on my schooling instead. I agree that it was ahead of its time, but it just stagnated in Cambridge and I think the same is happening in France.
lb: Vectorworks may be getting better with each passing revision, but it still has a host of issues with it that unless there is a major programming change the problems integral to the software will continue to be a hindrance to anyone used to organized and efficient drawings. As I have also mentioned in other threads, it promotes sloppy/disorganized files. I hate the program, and so does everyone else in this office. To give you an idea of the kind of person who likes VW, the now ex-principle was a natural contrarian and used to draft on his laptop with the touchpad and a 12" screen - and his set organization and thoroughness of his sets have cause a whole host of issues for the firm. Like I said, now ex-principal. Also, at $1600 you are almost halfway to the ArchiCADs and Revits of the world, either of which are 100x more usable and useful.
Since the virulent anger at vectorworks in our office got so bad (I was actually one of the tamer complainers) I was entrusted in coming up with a comparison for our migration to a new software. I have a chart & everything. email me & i'll send it over.
sloppy files? how so, I'd be interesting to hear why you say that.
username, I like the sound of "250 bucks". We had considered something like Chief Architect not long ago - I honestly think a residential cad/builder oriented program is all we need, which is what it sounds like those cheaper programs are. I think something like that might be perfect for us.
evilp, I'm sure I'll get stickers, shall I send them to you? ;-)
Pixel, VW seems like the obvious option. One question (for everyone): my partner is *heavily resistant* to change, and he is/was most proficient at, believe it or not, Autocad R14. What is going to feel familiar for him - or is that a ridiculous notion and he just needs to suck it up and move on?!
crowbert: Sending you an email now. THANK you for the offer to share your research!
Crowbert,
What are these issues?
Vectorworks introduced the object info palate to cad programs. It is quirky but making the claim that "unless there is a major programming change the problems integral to the software will continue to be a hindrance to anyone used to organized and efficient drawings" is a little bizarre. What are you talking about? People make "organized and efficient drawings" on VW everyday. Revit doesn't even have layers which I think is a plus but that creates another set of issues.
perhaps also look at PowerCAD. I've never used it before, but a friend of mine that was quite computer-saavy swore by it as the best and easiest CAD package he'd ever used, Mac or PC.
"sloppy files? how so, I'd be interesting to hear why you say that."
I guess people believe this kind of FUD? (fear, uncertainty, doubt)
Does anyone at that firm know what they're doing? FUD is easy; showing that you know something is much more difficult.
Training is really important and I trained with a college friend of Richard Diehl. (i also was an Archicad beta tester and have a hand in designing another software package called BOA.) Whichever program you go with, there should be a professional trainer near you and I suggest that you invest in a little quality training. It can pay off.
I've got 400+ classes (which are Layers to the rest of the known world - confusing right off the bat) on millwork drawings because there's some automatic renaming and referencing function that doesnt realize that the a layer on the referenced file is the same from one file to the next. VW does not allow you do do that unless you sever (and then cut and paste!) the drawing, thus eliminating the reason for referencing the drawing in the first place.
And referencing copies the whole file in each referred file, which means now each drawing has all of the referenced drawings sucking up the programs memory. Working on one particularly bloated file, I've had time to comb through Archinect for 90+ sec. at a time every ten minutes as the program backed up to the server because of its bandwidth girth. And it crashed all the freaking time because I was using too new of a computer with an older version. The newer versions don't always solve that though.
Oh, and there are no Layersets, so navigating and turning those 400+ [layers] on and off is a bear.
So, since every single individual variation wants to be on its own [layer] and you wind up with either - massively bloated files, or taking big chunks of time to keep the drawing clean. Either problem is exacerbated by the fact that it doesn't operate like AutoCAD and most people out there don't know how to use it VW.
The symbols and its method of organization is atrocious, neither blocks or Revit/ArchiCAD symbols, but rather something that took the worst from both systems and combined them into one nearly unusable mess. Composite walls aren't much better (and your need to do math trying to determine the center of a material's location in the wall relative to the center of the wall itself turns seconds into tens of minutes)
Don't get me started on groups, and their general unusability. ArchiCAD's group method is beautifully simple because it allows you to toggle it on and off. I never realized how much I missed that until it was gone. I should also point out that a symbol or group can be partially or wholly different [layer] than its constituent members. Combine that with 400 [layers] and you can spend an hour trying to find why the door swings won't turn on (or off).
The 3D is basically unusable in practice. I've seen student work that looks okay (but inferior to work I did on DataCad/3DStudio 2, to tell you my age) but nothing that seems to indicate that it would be usable in practice.
Did I mention that I am one of the people in my office who was considered to be one of the non-haters?
i'm a "mostly" happy vectorworks user. if i'm not mistaken, crowbert and I have had a bit of back and forth on this issue and we are decidedly not on the same page, but by and large IMHO VW will do everything you need it to do LB.
i spent a few years working in a residential-specific arch firm on vectorworks and drawing organization was never an issue. sounds to me like it was either training problems or user-error gone awry in crowbert's office, but i could be wrong.
no matter what package you use, there will be complaints, and there certainly are with VW, but in general i find it an intuitively easy program to use, and contrary to crowberts comments, i find drawing organization and cleanliness to be superb.
now, font control on the other hand, drives me fucking batty.
know anybody with a copy you can *use* for a coupla' weeks and see for yourself?
pm me if you've got specific questions...be happy to help.
Wow - I'm glad you started this Thread Liberty. I'm a pc user and I swear by it, but I also believe in being multi-platformed because well you never know. And yes I know that you can run parallels and dud and run programs on either platforms.
Today I just made an order for the software I need to continue doing my job vectorworks, sketchup, and adobe cs3 were top on the list. And I began thinking that it didn't really matter what platform I was using anymore. VW is brill...I've used it back when it was MiniCAD and I was having a hard time getting my nogin around ACAD (2|4 biatches). Anyway I liked it...I was even more impressed when working on a project with a mate he sat my in front of what was now VectorWorks 11, and I almost wet my pants. Spec'ing became a dream and things I really didn't like doing before were fun and interesting. The scripts for VW are cool - you can order them directly from the vendor (he had marvin windows and it allowed him to custom, and order without switching sofware). It makes a difference with smaller practices and believe it to be the way to go
Notwithstanding VW2008 is $1600 - ahah...but you can still buy a back version and an upgrade for only $500. I'm making a case...
I made the transition from autocad to mac / powercadd about 4 months ago.. I wouldn't switch to it now, it feels like an archaic program, something from the 90s that's had dozens of half assed bits and pieces added to it. most mac cad programs are like that...as is autocad, but at least with autocad the pieces are less half assed.
for smaller projects on a mac, I'd use Adobe illustrator with a plugin called cadtools, and maybe a 3rd party cad translator if needed. Easy to learn if you know some adobe programs like photoshop already.
http://www.hotdoor.com/index.php?content=cadtools&navcontent=cadtools
for larger projects on a mac, I'd run parallels and revit.
edit:
sounds to me now like crowbert has a wide array of specific issues that preclude his efficient use of VW's native capabilities while exacerbating its deficiencies.
in my work i don't have a need for 400 layers or classes, and for *lots* of residential jobs of a modest scale, you don't either.
the "layerset" problem is solved through the correct use of Saved Views which is a piece of cake if you know how to use it correctly.
the referencing issue with regards to classes is a pain, but for me it's no big deal because anything i reference is typically shell stuff and not part of my scope anyway, so i either go back to the original file and delete anything offending or i just scale back the opacity, problem solved for me.
file sizes are definitely an issue, but unless you're consulting with a huge team of people, each of whom requires their own custom export, then it's not really all that much of a time-suck. most of the time i'm just posting pdf's to somebody's FTP and they do the plotting anyway. when there's only one architect and one MEP team, custom-exports (where required) are not an issue for me...i do them all the time.
group protocols could stand to be improved, sure, but once you get used to HOW it works, you find ways to deal with the good and the bad with regards to class visibility.
you can't be inflexible with regards to your working methods...a new/different piece of software requires new/different thinking. there will always be frustration and pain in learning anything new...
(i second the use of manana's hotdoor/cadtools suggestion. another firm i used to work at had that thing going on. some very pretty drawings can be made that way, with excellent control of all visibilities, lineweights/colors, etc.)
all those bad things aside, VW's sheet-layers, viewports, live-sections/elevations, and page-layout abilities pretty much rock.*
* - as much as any piece of software can *rock* which is not really that much.
The worst part about VW is trying to clean up accumulated errors in drawings. Errant [layers] never seem to go away and continuously trap unsuspecting information. Once it gets to a certain point the program, your library and reference material becomes unusable.
Admittedly a good chunk of these problems started out from a lack of a firm hand in office standards, but I have never seen an office so mired in the inability to produce a clean and efficient drawing as I do here. Every step of the way the program fought any attempts to clean up the files and standards. Even the drawings from the time of the ex-principal, who supposedly did try to keep up with office standards look byzantine whenever I need to go back and reference them. While its a cheaper program, I believe it to be cheaper because its a throughly half-assed program, not because it tries to be efficient and specific in what it does. It tries to do to much with to little and one its most glaring shortcomings is usability - at times the program itself seems to revel in its contrarian nature.
In other words, you have to work at it to keep your drawings clean, which should be mostly taken care of by the program, and not by the people.
If you are planning on doing billable work with this program, $4-5G times two seats is minor compared to the time you waste keeping on top of office standards or dealing with inefficient files. Revit can mesh nicely with ACAD, although you do lose some advantages of the BIM utilities.
If you have Mac 10.5, VW prior to 12.5 will not work. It might open by your new OS garbles the data beyond recognition. We had to upgrade the software just to read files, and keep an old mac around to translate our earlier files because 12.5 won't read them properly.
Additionally, nobody hates VW like someone coming from ACAD, if the experience at my firm is any indication. Just so you know. Granted, they don't usually like moving to ArchiCAD or Revit either, but the hatred does not subside with VW, but rather only seems to grow stronger.
huh? does autocad really keep them clean for you? wow. i did not know that.
;-)
this is what i get from the autocad-based architect for a job i'm working on:
there's nothing clean or efficient about it. just sayin. a cool art piece, sure, but not an easy way to start my day.
Uh oh. Crowbert, do you work in the Monadnock Building?
mighty, coming from archiCad and going to Revit, I can tell you, all those things rock much harder in either of those two programs than in VW. Its not even the same sport in my opinion.
But my main point is, if you try to integrate any of your learned knowledge from other programs into VW, you are in for a load of hurt. Not only does it require you to forget what you have learned from other programs, it seems to revel in the fact that it does things differently. You know what, ACAD is the 800# gorilla out there, and you don't necessarily have to like it, you can make your program better than it, but you can't refute that fact. And VW tries to and makes itself the worst of the two in the process.
If it's the firm I am thinking of, I have heard things about it. Or are you on South Wabash, like 1100 s, and I have heard things about that place too.
I'm not saying I do, and I'm not saying I don't.
Oh, ACAD can be a beast of a program too - no bones about it. But 99.99% of the CAD monkeys out there know the program, and there's a bunch of after-market script you can use to clean up your drawings. I have plenty of things I think should be better in ACAD as well, but they do not seem endemic to the program itself. Honestly, my little screed here is nothing compared to the complaints about the program from some of my coworkers.
Goodness, makeArch, you must have heard really seriously bad things if you can figure out where someone works from a post!
crowbert I emailed you, and I promise if you email me back I won't reveal where you work! Although I reveal myself on my profile page I definitely respect everyone else's privacy. Especially when it comes to bitching about the office!
Thnkas for so much commentary, everyone.
A friend of mine went to interview at one of the Vectorworks-using places I mentioned and said that it was the most disorganized mess that he had ever seen. And he was coming from Beeby's office which keeps its CAD monkeys in far from humane conditions.
I am really curious about which place it is...
we've been here before crowbert, and i'm not like a big corporate apologist for NNA or anything, but seriously man, the only reason VW tries to do anything like acad is because it is the 800# gorilla.
but back to LB's issue at hand, if you are a small practice, have modest jobs with small teams of consultants, VW can do EVERYTHING you need it to do with a minimum of frustration once you get the hang of it, which is about two weeks.
i think we can both agree that if you're a mid/large firm with lots of employees whose drawing standards cannot be monitored (dnager will robbins!) and you are trying company wide to make a shift to VW from acad, then yes, obviously there are going to be lots of problems.
but sya, for instance, that your small firm takes on employees and grows into a modest sized firm with sizable projects: it's my opinion that VW can still accomplish what you need it to accomplish.
better than archicad? don't know, never used it. better than acad? IMHO yes, but I learned VW first.
'nuff said.
gotta' leave now.
good luck LB!
dnager will robbins indeed!
rhino for osx:
http://community.irhino3d.com/
is it still true that Mac's make better windows PC's that the other builders? (performance wise)
Didn't VW buy ArchiCAD recently?
I worked in one office where everyone complained endlessly about VW, including me. We HATED it. But it turned out that most of the reason people hated it was because they didn't know how to use it fully.
Then I moved to another office where they understood how to use the program, and I realized that many VW users use like 20% of the functionality of the program.
Moral 1: VW is a good program if you know how to use it.
Moral 2: Make sure you know how to use it before you launch into a project.
Revit Architecture 2009.
Forget about ArchiCad
The rendering engine is good, too.
Has PH finally moved from the darkside?
Poczatek, isn't Revit a huge expensive (pc) program suitable for doing airports and hospitals and the like? I don't want/need that. I do residential kitchen remodels.
farwest, that's a large point of my query here: I don't want a program I will be using 20% of. I'd rather have something really simple that I can utilize most of its functionality, and since I'm not (as stated) doing airports, I don't need a lot of tricks.
Hopefully I'll never be an employee again, though if that comes to pass, I suppose learning Revit would be smart.
"farwest, that's a large point of my query here: I don't want a program I will be using 20% of. I'd rather have something really simple that I can utilize most of its functionality, and since I'm not (as stated) doing airports, I don't need a lot of tricks."
That's why getting some training really helps.
I second what farwest has said.
Has PH moved onto Revit?
Archicad is a very cool program and is Mac native. It's overkill for kitchen remodeling/additions.
What/who is PH?
irhino3d
liberty bell,
I just bought a mac also. I intend partitioning and installing windows to run acad and rhino for when I design stuff at home...
P/H is a mac firm in Chicago. Thats why asked did they switch over?
No, Pappageorge (P/H) did not switch over (and they are under-utilizing their ArchiCAD software as well, but that's another thread).
if you're using Adobe Illustartor at all (or are familiar and like the Adobe interface), then this plug-in may do the trick:
http://www.hotdoor.com/index.php?content=cadtools&navcontent=cadtools
for what it seems you're looking for, it plus SketchUP may be just the ticket. Also, if your partner uses Photoshop or any other of their products, it may be a much shallower learning curve.
I have Revit at Home and use ArchiCad at work.
LB > Airports...that's funny. It's more about sheet organization, tags, schedules, etc - the stuff you get bogged-down with when you want to be designing....ArchiCAD has same features, but seems more like a combination of Adobe Illustrator and CAD....it's too spongey to me and screws you when you really apply some horsepower.
Plain-old Autocad might be your best bet, as it is just about file / folder management at that point - is your mac a dual Intel?
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