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mac drafting: a personal request from an old timer

105
farwest1

LB, It's deadly simple to figure out 90% of Vectorworks. (Whether you'll like it or not is a different story.) You can be up and running in a day or two.

My only point was that you should definitely adopt good habits early—unlike my old office, where bad habits and laziness meant that no one used the software right.

May 28, 08 5:34 pm  · 
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farwest1

Also, Vectorworks is really set up for the small office doing mostly residential. In fact, many of its tools are for residential construction.

Where offices get into trouble, I think, is when they try to design airports with it.

May 28, 08 5:36 pm  · 
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db

there's also this for only $149: http://www.turbocad.com/TurboCAD/TurboCADforMac/TurboCADMacProv3/tabid/586/Default.aspx

May 28, 08 5:36 pm  · 
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rehiggins

What about AutoCAD LT?? I bet it's light enough to effectively run in a parallels window, especially since it won't need any 3D acceleration (LT is strictly 2D the last I checked)

re: macs are better PCs--> for me, the answer is yes. Mine was cheaper than a comparable Dell and it runs my software (maxwell, revit, acad, adobe suite) faster than said comparable dell. The weird thing is that maxwell is faster on the XP side than it is on the OSX side even though it's running through the same exact hardware.

May 28, 08 6:38 pm  · 
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charles.ellinwood

i use powercadd in my office. it's not the most sophisticated program, but it is one that can get the job done. it's based on the principle: What You See Is What You Get. it's totally 2D and isn't compatible with other programs unless you export the file as a DWG / DXF or whatever else it translates, but you have to by that translator application seperately.

not sure on the price...but it's less than Autocadd and pretty easy to learn.

happy hunting!

May 28, 08 6:43 pm  · 
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Antisthenes

before you pay for autocad LT you can get Progecad LT (a open source clone) for FREE
http://www.softsea.com/download/ProgeCAD-LT-2006.html

May 28, 08 6:52 pm  · 
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blah

I think this example goes to show that CAD software, whatever it is, is merely a tool and that the emphasis is on your knowledge and your ability to express it.

http://www.apple.com/pro/profiles/tighe/

In fact a lot of important work is still done with a pen on paper.

Also, the scale of work is definitely a consideration. I don't think someone in small residential will see much savings from working in Revit. It's better for large projects where BIM coordination saves time and money. Or for someone working from a kit of parts.

And someone like Tighe who does cutting edge work needs Rhino or Maya to develop his ideas and expression. PowerCADD is the 2-d tool he uses to make drawings.

May 29, 08 1:25 pm  · 
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Antisthenes

now if only i can get corporate to authorize the purchase of 30 more Rhinoceros seats...

May 29, 08 1:33 pm  · 
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MOCHASandMACS

You should get Vector Works for drafting. NEVER USE FORM Z for drafting. FormZ is for modeling and rendering only. Then you can take the dwg/vector files from Vector works and open them in Illustrator and Poche - color them if you wish.

as said earlier you can always just get parallels ot bootcamp and install windows on your mac to use Autocad. But its kinda a pain, I just do it bc im too stuck on AutoCAD but if it doesnt matter then go for something else.

May 29, 08 2:33 pm  · 
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MOCHASandMACS

I just re read your post you should just get cad since you already invested in parallels and vista. There is no other point to having parallels because everything else on the pc side is soo much better on a mac, EVERYTHING.

May 29, 08 2:37 pm  · 
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Antisthenes

does mac have portables?

May 29, 08 2:41 pm  · 
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Antisthenes

, good alternatives to corporate mainstream applications, and a broad open source programing culture? somehow i think apple would not allow alternative.

May 29, 08 3:05 pm  · 
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FOG Lite

Not like this thread needs anymore input, but I'll throw in too.

LB-
Vectorworks can definitely meet your needs and then some. I worked on it for a few years and it did make me a little crazy, but only because I was switching back and forth between VW and Acad constantly. If your finished product is a printed set and you don't need to send digital files back & forth with consultants too much then I would recommend VW. I think VW is perfectly suited for small, single practitioner projects. A house, a renovation, sure. Anything larger and I'd consider a different software. I will say that VW makes much better LOOKING plots than Acad straight out of the box, no fussy pen tables to endlessly tweak.

However, if your partner is really speedy with Acad 14, stick with that since VW would make them batty as everything they know will be different inside VW. You'll be able to run Acad 14 quite well with Parallels or Bootcamp.

May 29, 08 4:16 pm  · 
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when i moved to london a few years back i found myself facing vectorworks for first time in a decade. it took me about a day to get hang of it. i would not use it given a choice. the logic is wonky after using AC for so long.

but it is dead easy to use and for our 6 man shop was just fine.

in office in canada we used powercadd, which is i think maybe cheaper - it also took about a day to learn. nice enough. grew from same software as vectorworks...not sure how but they shared same base somehow.

good luck LB!

May 30, 08 11:28 am  · 
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Antisthenes

you'll need it ;)

May 30, 08 12:31 pm  · 
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mantaray

lbelle-- it might be worth doing a sort of dumbed-down general overview for you here...

vectorworks can feel similar to illustrator for people that are used to autocad; it is more mouse-based and is kind of... vector-drawing-based for lack of a better description. it is much simpler than autocad so if you are working on smaller projects it can feel more suited to the task in that you don't have to jump through a million bells and whistles designed for large, repetitive projects. Your partner will be utterly LOST for the first week however, but he'll probably get used to it. It is very different from autocad and requires very different organizational thinking (which to me is much cleaner and simpler in the end).

overall most people find archicad to be the best mac-based drafting program (it is sleek, intelligent, more streamlined than vectorworks (not as much mouse-clicking and tool-selecting), and more versatile than pretty much any program out there including autocad) but it *is* much more expensive.

For what you guys are doing, I would probably suggest VW as I've used it in a very small office similar to yours and it worked great. For anything more than that I would recommend archicad.

I would NOT recommend attempting to use illustrator for drafting as it is slow, clunky, and will frustrate the hell out of anyone used to a TRUE drafting program.

good luck!

May 31, 08 3:30 pm  · 
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Emilio

I second (or third) PowerCADD: one of the easiest programs I've ever used, and it does a beautiful job for the basic drawing which you described...and it only costs about $1,000.

May 31, 08 4:00 pm  · 
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LB have you made a decision yet? It seems like TurboCAD might be the most inexpensive option to test out. And its compatible with AutoCAD, and was designed for the mac.

I'm still hoping out for VW tho

Jun 1, 08 3:06 pm  · 
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liberty bell

I have not made a decision yet...my computer hasn't arrived :-(

Hopefully tomorrow!

Jun 1, 08 9:05 pm  · 
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evilplatypus

Get ready for zoomy screen transitions and Jelly buttons!!

Jun 1, 08 11:38 pm  · 
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liberty bell

I've been using my husband's MacBookPro for the last year for email and internet, so I'm *fairly* used to how they operate already. The metal casing is cold, but it's summer so yay for that! Come winter I'll be cad'ing with fingerless mittens.

Jun 2, 08 7:12 am  · 
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hmmm hope that the metal doesn't get so hot as to then burn those finger tips during summer. I better stop mac-hating before the stones start to fly.

Also anti had made a previous recommendation for ProgeCAD Lt, that version does not support Vista (when did this turn in a pc cad fight?). The latest version can be taken directly from the ProgeCAD website

Jun 2, 08 11:16 am  · 
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Antisthenes

LB do you take and classes in anything because if you do you get Rhinoceros commercial for 150$ and that Imac Irhino is free to test/help i believe, you signed up for that?

Jun 2, 08 12:22 pm  · 
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Antisthenes

any

Jun 2, 08 12:22 pm  · 
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liberty bell

anti, my husband just used his educational discount to buy himself a copy of Rhino for pc. Not sure he can use it again....but I had been clued in to the irhino test and will sign up for it as soon as I get my computer - where is it?!?!?!?

Also, I got Windows XP with the new mac - not Vista.

Jun 2, 08 12:35 pm  · 
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Antisthenes
www.irhino3d.com

good choice, ya i was going to say don't use Vista that is not very production efficient last i checked.

Jun 2, 08 1:25 pm  · 
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liberty bell

Eek, sorry, anti - I meant why hasn't my COMPUTER shown up (no UPS yet today). But thanks for the help!

Jun 2, 08 2:12 pm  · 
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rehiggins

LB--

the OSX port of Rhino is not ready for primetime--it's fun to play around with, but it's missing some basic functionality: not all commands are implemented and some are a bit temperamental. You'd be much better off using Rhino4 in XP through bootcamp.

Jun 2, 08 2:26 pm  · 
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liberty bell

That brings up a point I should have made in my initial post, rehiggins, that I thought of when reading the Rhino tutorial thread: people there mention "playing around" with software, to learn it and see what they can do with it. Good for them, but I have zero interest in "playing around" with software. I've said this on architect before: no video game/software has held my interest for more than five minutes, and this is going all the way back to the first game of Pong I played in about 1979.

So if I don't like to "play" with software, I just want it to be functional and simple, does that impact my choices? I need my drafting software to be a protein bar, not a gourmet meal.

Jun 2, 08 2:32 pm  · 
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Antisthenes

i can't play games either. but i like having the power to do what i want most dirrectly & quickly.

Jun 2, 08 3:25 pm  · 
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Liberty what has your success been like using Sketch Up?

Jun 2, 08 3:37 pm  · 
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rehiggins

Well, right now RhinoOSX is pretty useless for actual production work, so it's definitely not appropriate for you and may never be given that you really don't need the 3D capabilities. Using Rhino for 2D-only work is a bit of a waste, though it's perfectly capable of doing so and it's very similar to AutoCAD.

I think you really have two options as the other software mentioned above may require more hoop-jumping("playing") than either you or your partner may be comfortable with (I'll be honest--I'm a bit of a software snob when it comes to CAD--I don't trust the free or nearly free programs):
AutoCADLT: cheaper than AutoCAD (sub-$1k), your partner would probably feel the most comfortable with this option and chances are you will too, from a production standpoint and file exchange ability with potential consultants down the line--will you always be doing projects that don't necessarily need other consultants? I'd say this one is the protein bar (very stripped down version of AutoCAD).

Vectorworks: native to OSX, would require developing a new skillset as it appears that ACAD skills don't really translate (your partner would probably be very unhappy--especially if they haven't used ACAD since R14); this is probably more of a gourmet option, though not necessarily bad and not nearly as gourmet/overkill as Rhino, ACAD, ArchiCAD, Revit, etc.

Jun 2, 08 3:57 pm  · 
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MADianito

throw away parallels and get VMware FUSION....

i found parallels a bit dumb

here at the office, we have 3 macs (2 i.macs and one powerbook), we run autocad (in FUSION/windows XP) we run Rhino also in windows, and then we run sketchup, photoshop, illustrator, and all the rest of etc. on MAC side... cant get any better than that, i think we have restarted the machines twice since january....

before someone barks "if u run all day autocad in Mac, why u got a MAC?", would have to say that many computer magazines, have rated MAC as the best and most stable computer to run windows in...so even if ur based on windows, get a MAC.... best machine available....

LIBERTY WELCOME, u wont regret it!

Jun 2, 08 4:11 pm  · 
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207moak

lb - I've used Powercad, Archicad, and HighDesign on the Mac.

Archicad - big $, powerful, bim features take some setup in advance to get things looking the way you want them. Probably the best, most robust option for the mac. Used at my previous position.

Powercad - medium $, solid 2D cad program, easy to use & learn. Haven t used it in years, but liked it back then.

HighDesign - low$, easy to learn, good looking interface, very much a product in development (current version 1.8) - developer very responsive to suggestions for users. If you're looking for a sophisticated program - you may be frustrated by this. I use this at home for messing around & small scale projects and it is a fine 2d only option.

Jun 2, 08 4:32 pm  · 
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blah

"Vectorworks: native to OSX, would require developing a new skillset as it appears that ACAD skills don't really translate"

????

I get the impression that many people know how to use 1 program and then see the whole world through that lens. Autocad borrowed the object info palate from Vectorworks a few versions ago but really didn't implement it correctly. Everyone should get used to knowing multiple programs because things are changing quickly.

"from a production standpoint and file exchange ability with potential consultants down the line"

I have great success going back and forth with consultants. If you know what you're doing, there's no problem. If they don't know what they're doing, then it's a problem even if you have Autocad. I have seen files with 16 gazillion layers that bring Autocad to a crawl where the origin of the drawing is practically on Mars. So this is pretty standard FUD.

CAD programs are going the way of video games in that the resources to create a modern program-- BIM capability, exchange, etc.-- requires large programming and marketing resources to create and maintain. Thus the world of Architectural CAD has three Super Powers:

1) Bentley and their Microstation product

2) Autodesk with Revit and Autocad

3) Nemetschek with Allplan, Vectorworks and Archicad

We'll see how things shake out

Jun 2, 08 4:38 pm  · 
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Die Scheiße

First of all, congrats on the Mac. I think you'll be satisfied once you nail down the cad situation (even if it means a little Windows with Bootcamp/Parallels).

Secondly, I've gone through a similar cad search myself. Mostly to be able to work from home with Mac-native software, but also to do a remodel/addition here and there. I suggest you give HighDesign a try and see what you think. I've used it for a handful of small residential additions and even to work on office projects at home. I've found it to be pretty nicely featured for the money. It's no PowerCADD/AutoCAD/Vectorworks, and I haven't thrown a large project at it yet, but works pretty well for what I've done so far.

Jun 2, 08 4:41 pm  · 
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rehiggins

makeARCH--

I was referring to the trouble that was described above in the thread with someone transitioning to VW, I've never used VW so I can't verify the claims of difficulty or ease (that's why I used "appears"). My personal experience with consultants is that I have had less trouble with files created with native ACAD products than when I would get files from someone using VW (I used to work for a structural engineering firm and have had the great pleasure of receiving horrendous files from both ACAD and VW firms). Please note that I wrote "less trouble"; sloppy drafters lurk on both sides of the fence…

Jun 2, 08 4:50 pm  · 
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Antisthenes

poor monkeys

Jun 2, 08 5:12 pm  · 
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liberty bell

Well I have the Mac, not really using it yet though as I have deadlines I'm trying to meet with the old pc.

But I forgot to post the most important question: what should I do with the Apple sticker? I don't theink evilplatypus *really* wants it, so should I stick it on my car like everyone else?



Note the little white "beauty stripes" on the front fender - I think the white Apple logo might look quite nice on my rear.

Jun 5, 08 12:43 pm  · 
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but then you have to peel it off and put it back on every time you change clothes.

seriously, though. i think you should use the top left corner of the windshield where they always put the oil change sticker.

or the middle of one of the taillights.

Jun 5, 08 12:49 pm  · 
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liberty bell

I toss out the butt joke, and Steven responds, I have to admit I'm surprised and delighted!

I think the white needs to be on the blue, not the windshield, though, right?

I don't know - I'm conflicted about putting anything on my car.

Jun 5, 08 1:13 pm  · 
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FRO

put it on the toolbox!

Jun 5, 08 1:41 pm  · 
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MAD my bro, when I hear you make claims like that I just know that my next computer will likely be a mac. Sigh I hate to admit it. Unless of course someone starts making Linux based laptops that are cool, functional and seriously user friendly.

Jun 5, 08 2:03 pm  · 
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I just scrolled up and caught the butt reference - kinda reminds me of this

Jun 5, 08 2:12 pm  · 
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hmm, I know I'm a little late to the party here, but I run Parallels with AutoCAD LT, and frankly I'm glad that I'm pretty light on the drafting these days. Every time I draft, my computer goes a little bonkers: my other programs might quit, or my mouse decide not to respond, or my computer forgets how to connect to the internet... basically, every time I run this combo, my computer starts acting a little bit confused. I deal with it because I don't draft all day every day anymore, but I would highly recommend something else for you.

Jun 5, 08 3:10 pm  · 
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blah

"hmm, I know I'm a little late to the party here, but I run Parallels with AutoCAD LT, and frankly I'm glad that I'm pretty light on the drafting these days. Every time I draft, my computer goes a little bonkers: my other programs might quit, or my mouse decide not to respond, or my computer forgets how to connect to the internet... basically, every time I run this combo, my computer starts acting a little bit confused. I deal with it because I don't draft all day every day anymore, but I would highly recommend something else for you."

What don't we just have a FUD section? ;-)

Jun 5, 08 4:11 pm  · 
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Antisthenes

IntelliCAD LT blows autocad LT out of the water and its FREE and 100% compatible.

Jun 5, 08 5:43 pm  · 
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liberty bell
diescheisse

: HighDesign looks interesting. And, OMG, one of my most direct competitors is featured on their website gallery! I've been looking for an excuse to contact this person professionally; maybe I'll ring up and see what they think of the program...

Thanks again for all your help, everyone - I hope others have been able to benefit too from all this collective experience.

Jun 5, 08 9:54 pm  · 
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e909

"Come winter I'll be cad'ing with fingerless mittens"
the iThing has already sent your fingerprints to iSatan. :-)

Sep 9, 08 8:38 am  · 
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Jordan Lloyd
http://brlcad.org/

Open source alternative for Mac CAD related activities. With no licensing fees to pay, it gives you a little bit more disposable income, no?

PS the trick with sketchup is not making it look like sketchup!

Sep 9, 08 8:47 am  · 
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