My worry, with that speech and the events of the past couple of days, is that it will convey the impression to white voters that Obama's presidency will be overly focused on race, to the exclusion of other issues.
I'm not saying I believe this, only that it may appear this way to the voting public.
"no one alive was a slave or slave owner. i certainly don't deny it happened, but constantly reminding little kids that they were once slaves (which they weren't) is counterproductive. but it fits wright in with wright's idea that we live in the u.s. of KKK."
No, but when you have large african american populations who live in cities like houston where there are parks that used to be used to sell slaves the history is not as transparent as you may think. The history of slavery is still alive in places like New Orleans, Texas, and elsewhere. To deny that fact is purely ignorance. We did not get to NOW in a vacuum.
but when an african-american kid goes to a park where they 'used to sell slaves' does he really think to himself 'this park represents white america holding me down'?
it's time to listen to the 'progressives' literally: move ON! (dot org)
Kids don't think like that until adults teach them to. It's we who need to be convinced. But political correctness, combined with the Professional Victims of America lobby, throws common sense out of the window with the bathwater -- or whatever. Note recent hoofaraw in San Francisco, where a city Supervisor is about to sue the city for failure to build a wheelchair ramp to the Council podium -- at a total cost (with ancillary improvements) of $1 million. By the time it's built her term will be over -- but it's "the priniciple of the thing." Phooey.
"The history of slavery is still alive in places like New Orleans, Texas, and elsewhere. To deny that fact is purely ignorance. We did not get to NOW in a vacuum."
well put jasoncross
as i sit here, reading some of these last posts, finishing up some work at this plastic bubble of a world at grad school... i am exceedingly grateful i did my undergrad at an historically black college.
@ SDR and FRaC, your absolutely right adults teach it to children. i don't think i can express how painfully difficult it is to try to explain to a child why racial epithets are used and why some children are treated differently because they look differently. you are completely off if you think parents volunteer the dark history of this country. it is too often forced when ignorance presents itself.
being of mixed race (something my grandparents started back in the 40s!! btw a native american woman and an irish serviceman) i cannot begin to express some of the difficulties involved in trying to understand ones place and identity. children are very aware of the environment in which they live although they sometimes have a hard time making much sense of it.
my own son for too long thought he was a "white man with a tan" and at a very early age thought he had hair like a quarterback he admired. how does one make sense of their child thinking they have straight blond hair when in fact they have course curly black hair?? these are not conversations a parent looks forward to.
while i think some of the dialog on these boards is incredibly discouraging it does reveal a bit about where we are in this country. and would argue that it supports so many of obama's views and the platform he is supporting. so FRaC while you may not be a fan of Obama's you are a great example of why it is so important to lend our support to this man.
SO FR&C & SDR - are you saying that slavery/institutionalized and state supported segregation and oppression on minorities in this country has had no influence whatsoever on the opportunities presented (and not presented) to americans today? That different people, based on their lineage are treated differently by our society at large? That somehow, magically after Brown vs. Board of Education or the Civil Rights Act passed, race and the effects of how society treated minorities up until that point just >poof< disappeared?
Because if you do, I think there's a lot of people who would like to move to whatever alternate world you are living in.
so FRaC while you may not be a fan of Obama's you are a great example of why it is so important to lend our support to this man.
i don't understand what you mean by that
but i will say that i have never voted based on race, religion, gender, musical tastes, ability to dance, or skill at jeopardy.
surely i can vote for the candidate whom i most agree with, and on the issues i most care about, and not be made to feel like i'm missing an opportunity to end racism.
what is obama going to do, anyway? tear down and rebuild these slave-selling parks in the south?
shouldn't obama's message be 'my wife is not a slave' instead of 'my wife carries the blood of slaves and slave owners, as do my children'?
No, he is admitting to a past that caries on in the present to identify with what was, so as to know what is. Only one who is completely ignorant or stupid can not understand that. You think the use of the N word today has no relationship to slavery? You think the issues today have no relationship to the past?
crowbert understands what i am saying...But i imagine Free has no interest whatsoever in trying to even fully comprehend it and would rather just spew rhetoric.
@ FRaC, i think u are a reflection of all too many uneducated (loosely used here) voters. i am not sure what your objectives are for why you post on this thread as i mostly ignore them but they way u dismiss obama and what he is trying to do makes me want to vote for him so much more.
i haven't voted based on those either. my support for him has grown b/c of what he stands for and how he handles the issues. how he has handled this whole race issue recently is admirable and reaffirms my beliefs that he can be an incredibly effective president.
why FRaC do u seem to support eradicating this history? while many of the parks, rail stations, and numerous other structures make me uncomfortable they are incredibly powerful in their ability to communicate progress and serve as a reminder to all as to what each of us has evolved from. while none of us have actually been slave owners we all have been affected in some form or fashion by this country's history of slavery. maybe some of us more than others.
Look free we know youre incredulous, but white people saying theyre tired of feeling bad about slavery isnt what puts it behind us. Prejudice still exists, theres no way around that. It may not make us perfect to have this discussion right now but it does at least move us in the right direction.
In part, Obama gave that speech because he had to. Because of whatever happened politically with Wright and Ferraro in the last couple of days (all of which is absolutely ridiculous and surreal, and a kind of chimera created by the media.)
But I have to say that until his speech today, I didn't think much about Obama's race. I liked him because I liked him—and believed he would be an amazing president.
I think he's at risk, paradoxical as it may seem, when race becomes in any way central to this campaign, or to his message.
I feel like in the last couple of years the US has moved beyond its complexes about race. The secretary of state is black and a woman, a number of our most bankable film stars are black, increasing number of lawyers, doctors, and other professionals are black. Sure, discrimination still happens, but we're progressing, and that's important.
What will set us back now is to start again the endless conversations about race that were so polarizing in the past.
This sort of "you're racist!" "No, you're racist!" banter is exactly what we don't need, and what Obama was speaking against in his speech today.
"I feel like in the last couple of years the US has moved beyond its complexes about race."
K a t r i n a. We are nowhere near being beyond the complex of race. How many CEO's of Fortune 500 companies...and on and on. It is still a very big issue in this country and it is related to the past. And a token appointee is not putting us past race being an issue...Did you hear about the Louisiana noose incident?...again, ignorance is bliss.
First, jasoncross, I was referring to both the Ferraro and Wright incidents in my last sentence, not posters on this thread. Ferraro was yelling about racism, as was Wright.
Secondly, do you think that minorities have made no progress in this country in the last few years? You say token appointees, I say Rice is fourth in line to the presidency and arguably the most powerful woman in America (aside from Oprah Winfrey.) I'm not arguing that there's equality, but the situation is improving, and will continue to improve.
Yes, Katrina was a disaster, but talking endlessly about these issues, slapping wrists and chastising everyone and being a pessimist is not the way to go about fixing things. Being an optimist, looking at how things are getting better and working to make them even better, trying to bring people together rather than endlessly placing blame: that's a solution that people can believe in.
A tree that black students were not allowed to sit under...at a high school in the US...just last year.
My point is that it is by actually talking about it that does create change...not sticking ones head in the sand and saying that is change.
Slavery is washed with a broad brush in the US and never really discussed with the ugliness in which it was carried out. I was lucky enough to go to a heavily black university in undergrad and had a great history professor, Dr. Tyrone Tillery. What I learned in that class was absolutely horrifying, but also grounding in that it made me understand some of the issues within the black community. Their history, their issues, and their conflicts...not all Blacks...but in a much more specific understanding of the general reality of the history of slavery than I had ever been taught in my white upbringing.
Can you imagine if say people said get over the Holocaust...I mean it didn't happen yesterday...please.
Prison statistics, death penalty statistics, etc...email if you would like more information on current issues...jena 6 and many many more.
So, one person does not erase current injustices that are tied to past realities...to believe so I think is highly naive...but if it makes you sleep better...then by all means...believe what you will.
In the last few years I would say that there has been somewhat of a slip up myself...kids hanging nooses in schools is a new trend...and not one that lends me to think there has been a constructive discourse on the issue. I think it is great that a politician has the fortitude to speak openly on the subject. That gives me HOPE.
Can you imagine if say people said get over the Holocaust...I mean it didn't happen yesterday...please.
great example - we certainly don't blame german kids today for the holocaust. and i don't hear an outcry from the jewish community 'oh those racist nazi germans are keepin' me down! i could really do something except that holocaust happened and now i'm screwed!'
to blame problems in the african-american community on slavery is fucking ridiculous.
prison statistics? death penalty statistics? here's a simple way to reduce those numbers: DON'T COMMIT CRIMES. i HOPE people can understand this. you must take responsibility for yourself. the government is not going to fix your life for you.
Jena, La. - By now, almost everyone in America has heard of Jena, La., because they've all heard the story of the "Jena 6." White students hanging nooses barely punished, a schoolyard fight, excessive punishment for the six black attackers, racist local officials, public outrage and protests – the outside media made sure everyone knew the basics.
There's just one problem: The media got most of the basics wrong. In fact, I have never before witnessed such a disgrace in professional journalism. Myths replaced facts, and journalists abdicated their solemn duty to investigate every claim because they were seduced by a powerfully appealing but false narrative of racial injustice.
I should know. I live in Jena. My wife has taught at Jena High School for many years. And most important, I am probably the only reporter who has covered these events from the very beginning.
The reason the Jena cases have been propelled into the world spotlight is two-fold: First, because local officials did not speak publicly early on about the true events of the past year, the media simply formed their stories based on one-side's statements – the Jena 6. Second, the media were downright lazy in their efforts to find the truth. Often, they simply reported what they'd read on blogs, which expressed only one side of the issue.
The real story of Jena and the Jena 6 is quite different from what the national media presented. It's time to set the record straight.
Myth 1: The Whites-Only Tree. There has never been a "whites-only" tree at Jena High School. Students of all races sat underneath this tree. When a student asked during an assembly at the start of school last year if anyone could sit under the tree, it evoked laughter from everyone present – blacks and whites. As reported by students in the assembly, the question was asked to make a joke and to drag out the assembly and avoid class.
"The Shoah fills us Germans with shame," she said, using the Hebrew word for the Holocaust in which 6 million Jews were killed. "I bow to the victims. I bow to all those who helped the survivors."
Also, I linked to the Wiki on the matter...not the media...the cnn was in reference to copy cat incidents of nooses during protests after....you are quite the distorter...
Published: March 19, 2008
There are moments — increasingly rare in risk-abhorrent modern campaigns — when politicians are called upon to bare their fundamental beliefs. In the best of these moments, the speaker does not just salve the current political wound, but also illuminates larger, troubling issues that the nation is wrestling with.
Inaugural addresses by Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt come to mind, as does John F. Kennedy’s 1960 speech on religion, with its enduring vision of the separation between church and state. Senator Barack Obama, who has not faced such tests of character this year, faced one on Tuesday. It is hard to imagine how he could have handled it better.
Mr. Obama had to address race and religion, the two most toxic subjects in politics. He was as powerful and frank as Mitt Romney was weak and calculating earlier this year in his attempt to persuade the religious right that his Mormonism is Christian enough for them.
It was not a moment to which Mr. Obama came easily. He hesitated uncomfortably long in dealing with the controversial remarks of his spiritual mentor and former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., who denounced the United States as endemically racist, murderous and corrupt.
On Tuesday, Mr. Obama drew a bright line between his religious connection with Mr. Wright, which should be none of the voters’ business, and having a political connection, which would be very much their business. The distinction seems especially urgent after seven years of a president who has worked to blur the line between church and state.
Mr. Obama acknowledged his strong ties to Mr. Wright. He embraced him as the man “who helped introduce me to my Christian faith,” and said that “as imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me.”
Wisely, he did not claim to be unaware of Mr. Wright’s radicalism or bitterness, disarming the speculation about whether he personally heard the longtime pastor of his church speak the words being played and replayed on YouTube. Mr. Obama said Mr. Wright’s comments were not just potentially offensive, as politicians are apt to do, but “rightly offend white and black alike” and are wrong in their analysis of America. But, he said, many Americans “have heard remarks from your pastors, priests or rabbis with which you strongly disagree.”
Mr. Obama’s eloquent speech should end the debate over his ties to Mr. Wright since there is nothing to suggest that he would carry religion into government. But he did not stop there. He put Mr. Wright, his beliefs and the reaction to them into the larger context of race relations with an honesty seldom heard in public life.
Mr. Obama spoke of the nation’s ugly racial history, which started with slavery and Jim Crow, and continues today in racial segregation, the school achievement gap and discrimination in everything from banking services to law enforcement.
He did not hide from the often-unspoken reality that people on both sides of the color line are angry. “For the men and women of Reverend Wright’s generation,” he said, “the memories of humiliation and fear have not gone away, nor the anger and the bitterness of those years.”
At the same time, many white Americans, Mr. Obama noted, do not feel privileged by their race. “In an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero-sum game,” he said, adding that both sides must acknowledge that the other’s grievances are not imaginary.
He made the powerful point that while these feelings are not always voiced publicly, they are used in politics. “Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan coalition,” he said.
Against this backdrop, he said, he could not repudiate his pastor. “I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community,” he said. “I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother.” That woman whom he loves deeply, he said, “once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street” and more than once “uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.”
There have been times when we wondered what Mr. Obama meant when he talked about rising above traditional divides. This was not such a moment.
We can’t know how effective Mr. Obama’s words will be with those who will not draw the distinctions between faith and politics that he drew, or who will reject his frank talk about race. What is evident, though, is that he not only cleared the air over a particular controversy — he raised the discussion to a higher plane.
This speech was like being served a huge slab of prime rib after 30 years of eating nothing but McDonald's. Having gotten a taste of the real deal, how can we now go back to the way things were before?
I thought the whole point of Obama's speech was that we should understand how we got here, where we are and how to get to the better place. So blaming others for our bad hand isn't productive, but neither is saying (pretending really) that everyone got exactly the same hand to start out with is also not productive. You are responsible for your own actions, but society at large has to always be conscious of the choices available to the person at the time and react accordingly.
Its not as bad as it was, but its not as good as it needs to be. How hard is that to effin' understand people? If you continue to bicker about the details, everyone loses.
I do have to say after reading the speech, regardless of the outcome in November, he won the truly big prize - he just moved the country forward.
After 8 years of lies and having a President who asleep at the wheel, it was both alien and refreshing to hear someone get up their and speak the truth about race in America.
Imagine if we can do this about health care? Iraq?
voters should judge a candidate not only on their past, but how they run their existing campaign:
Obama was not afraid to address the issue. He did so diplomatically and in a sensitive way in which he did not alienate someone he disagrees with, but rather saw valid issues on each side. He addressed each side- and began to get to the root of the issue, recognizing that it is a deeply threaded web that has been woven in this country regarding race and religion.
THAT is how you begin to negotiate. I would be more than happy to send a man like that to negotiate with Iran, Korea, or wherever. He would be able to try to understand each side, not alienate someone (or a country), and negotiate.
THANK GOD.
and farwest...
i agree with you as well- i actually wouldn't have voted for him based on his race- as it really makes no difference. but being in an interracial relationship myself, and seeing people stare, i admire others who have a similar situation and handle it with dignity and grace.
i actually was torn about who i would be voting for- and no it wasn't hillary. but now i believe i have made my decision. his speech yesterday was so moving + powerful, i thought i was back at Hampton for a moment.
<quote>great example - we certainly don't blame german kids today for the holocaust. and i don't hear an outcry from the jewish community 'oh those racist nazi germans are keepin' me down! i could really do something except that holocaust happened and now i'm screwed!'
to blame problems in the african-american community on slavery is fucking ridiculous.
prison statistics? death penalty statistics? here's a simple way to reduce those numbers: DON'T COMMIT CRIMES. i HOPE people can understand this. you must take responsibility for yourself. the government is not going to fix your life for you.</quote>
Great post.
I've just started reading a book which I believe many americans (and african americans especially) need to read. It is absolutely brilliant and addresses this issue.
It is called "Capitalist Nigger". SHOCK! HORROR! The N-Word!
It is written by a brilliant Nigerian man who has been living in the US for 26 years. I don't agree with everything he says as I find he advocates a rather seperatist approach, but his basic ideas are extremely important.
i'm wondering if some architects here on this post just so happen to not remember anything about the 50's and 60's regarding mortgages, lending, and housing...
the term predatory lending was not coined for the recession of '08.
people remember these things because they were themselves ALIVE during segregation, or when the suburbs were whites only, or even one of my past professors who was one of the first black men to graduate from Harvard with a degree in architecture.
oh, wait, even better ... THE first black man to graduate from UVA just had a ceremony a few weeks ago- which he attended- to celebrate the 11,000 or so African-Americans who have graduated from UVA since he graduated in 1953- Walter N. Ridley:
but some ppl on this board would have u to believe that black folks choose not to go to uva. they are apparently too busy coming up with conspiracy's about how the white man holds them down.
i can't even take FRaC and chopsky seriously. i think they are trolls that just get some sick kick out of this.
do you two think it's just a coincidence that the most historically oppressed people in this country have the hardest time presently. at what point did the effects of slavery cease to exist? the systems in this country are designed to keep people down. and if you don't believe that check out any native american reservation in this country.
reservations isolate the problems that have always existed in the black communities. the welfare system operates to get people by just enough but not enough to get ahead. it takes an incredible strong willed and motivated person to break from this cycle. i suppose that is what we call progress.
i don't disagree, but is it the issue that this election should turn around? i enjoyed obama's speech yesterday. i agree with most everything he said and found it quite eloquently delivered, but now instead of the economy, instead of the war, instead of the environment, obama has put race forward as the central issue of this election.
this country is not perfect, but it can be perfected.
this quote from obama's speech yesterday sums up why i could never vote for him. he is a leader who is constantly replaying the past to achieve better outcomes instead of trying to understand current circumstances to lead us to a better future. it's a fundamental philosophical difference. obama wants to keep replaying 1968 to achieve a desired outcome rather than attempting to lead us into 2010, 2020. sorry, folks, it ain't 1968.
i am still blown away that people can dumb down such a complex situation to something like this...
"to blame problems in the african-american community on slavery is fucking ridiculous.
prison statistics? death penalty statistics? here's a simple way to reduce those numbers: DON'T COMMIT CRIMES. i HOPE people can understand this. you must take responsibility for yourself. the government is not going to fix your life for you."
1 in 15 black adult males are in prison...
1 in 9 black men aged 20-34.
thats over 10% of the whole population...
are you so incredibly stupid as to think this happens because blacks dont take responsibility for their own lives?
are you completely blind? have you never seen the projects? you think people live there because they want to?
do you think its coincidence that the life expectancy of a white male is almost 10 years more than that of a black male?
Do blacks just enjoy dying young?
Its apparently a complete coincidence that minorities have less money, less education, poorer neighborhoods, less health care and less opportunity...
jafidler, is what he spoke about not current? i would argue that he has a keen sense of just what is current. he has avoided making race an issue and was only forced to make this speech in light of current events. an understanding of the past and history shows us how we got to where we are. should we also forget about the last 7 years of the current administration? keeping these issues in the closet doesn't make them go away. we have pretended like everything is okay for way too long. i am not saying this is the platform he should be running on but it IS an issue that needs addressing.
My friend's grandmom's mom's was a slave and grew up in virginia in the early part of this century. Needless to say, grams don't trust white folk much.
Its hard to get over that shit when either you lived through slavery/jim crow/etc or get to live vicariously through it via loved ones at the dinner table and hear about the days when black men would be lynched for even looking at a white woman.
I don't really see how Katrina is a race issue though, I think the media painted it in that light. Katrina illustrates perfectly how incompetent the Governments of NO, LO, and the US are respectively.
HE'S not the one that has made race an issue. he was forced into it - indeed tried to ignore it - by the hillary campaign and the media's hoopla about wright. after realizing he couldn't avoid it, he gave a well-crafted response and went beyond, giving the background for his positions and showing that, indeed, his positions have depth based on consideration (despite ongoing criticisms that his positions are shallow).
who says that the campaign all of a sudden will center on race, jafidler? if race now becomes central it won't be because obama did it.
witness: that speech was yesterday. today obama will talk about iraq.
"I don't really see how Katrina is a race issue though"
Many white developers were praying for something like that to come (and were very happy when it finally did) so that they could gain access to land for development which otherwise they would not have been able to get...happened in many of the coastal hit areas...my uncle is one of those developers...this is from within my family, not media...race was and still is a big part of the Katrina story...although, I wish it were not the case.
VOTE OBAMA
woops, wrong thread.
Free Ramos, when I said 'as well', I wasn't referring to what you had said.
k
air america is still around?
of course novafm i think they are called now.
My worry, with that speech and the events of the past couple of days, is that it will convey the impression to white voters that Obama's presidency will be overly focused on race, to the exclusion of other issues.
I'm not saying I believe this, only that it may appear this way to the voting public.
"no one alive was a slave or slave owner. i certainly don't deny it happened, but constantly reminding little kids that they were once slaves (which they weren't) is counterproductive. but it fits wright in with wright's idea that we live in the u.s. of KKK."
No, but when you have large african american populations who live in cities like houston where there are parks that used to be used to sell slaves the history is not as transparent as you may think. The history of slavery is still alive in places like New Orleans, Texas, and elsewhere. To deny that fact is purely ignorance. We did not get to NOW in a vacuum.
who's denying it happened?
but when an african-american kid goes to a park where they 'used to sell slaves' does he really think to himself 'this park represents white america holding me down'?
it's time to listen to the 'progressives' literally: move ON! (dot org)
oh, i see, to deny the fact that the 'history of slavery is still alive' would be ignorant.
it's only alive when kids are told they have the 'blood of slaves' in them.
so thanks obama, and reverend wright, for keeping slavery alive!
Kids don't think like that until adults teach them to. It's we who need to be convinced. But political correctness, combined with the Professional Victims of America lobby, throws common sense out of the window with the bathwater -- or whatever. Note recent hoofaraw in San Francisco, where a city Supervisor is about to sue the city for failure to build a wheelchair ramp to the Council podium -- at a total cost (with ancillary improvements) of $1 million. By the time it's built her term will be over -- but it's "the priniciple of the thing." Phooey.
"The history of slavery is still alive in places like New Orleans, Texas, and elsewhere. To deny that fact is purely ignorance. We did not get to NOW in a vacuum."
well put jasoncross
as i sit here, reading some of these last posts, finishing up some work at this plastic bubble of a world at grad school... i am exceedingly grateful i did my undergrad at an historically black college.
@ SDR and FRaC, your absolutely right adults teach it to children. i don't think i can express how painfully difficult it is to try to explain to a child why racial epithets are used and why some children are treated differently because they look differently. you are completely off if you think parents volunteer the dark history of this country. it is too often forced when ignorance presents itself.
being of mixed race (something my grandparents started back in the 40s!! btw a native american woman and an irish serviceman) i cannot begin to express some of the difficulties involved in trying to understand ones place and identity. children are very aware of the environment in which they live although they sometimes have a hard time making much sense of it.
my own son for too long thought he was a "white man with a tan" and at a very early age thought he had hair like a quarterback he admired. how does one make sense of their child thinking they have straight blond hair when in fact they have course curly black hair?? these are not conversations a parent looks forward to.
while i think some of the dialog on these boards is incredibly discouraging it does reveal a bit about where we are in this country. and would argue that it supports so many of obama's views and the platform he is supporting. so FRaC while you may not be a fan of Obama's you are a great example of why it is so important to lend our support to this man.
SO FR&C & SDR - are you saying that slavery/institutionalized and state supported segregation and oppression on minorities in this country has had no influence whatsoever on the opportunities presented (and not presented) to americans today? That different people, based on their lineage are treated differently by our society at large? That somehow, magically after Brown vs. Board of Education or the Civil Rights Act passed, race and the effects of how society treated minorities up until that point just >poof< disappeared?
Because if you do, I think there's a lot of people who would like to move to whatever alternate world you are living in.
Yeah, we've got HOPE, even for you, Free.
i don't understand what you mean by that
but i will say that i have never voted based on race, religion, gender, musical tastes, ability to dance, or skill at jeopardy.
surely i can vote for the candidate whom i most agree with, and on the issues i most care about, and not be made to feel like i'm missing an opportunity to end racism.
what is obama going to do, anyway? tear down and rebuild these slave-selling parks in the south?
shouldn't obama's message be 'my wife is not a slave' instead of 'my wife carries the blood of slaves and slave owners, as do my children'?
Did I imply that ? I didn't mean to. . .
No, he is admitting to a past that caries on in the present to identify with what was, so as to know what is. Only one who is completely ignorant or stupid can not understand that. You think the use of the N word today has no relationship to slavery? You think the issues today have no relationship to the past?
Ignorance is bliss.
crowbert understands what i am saying...But i imagine Free has no interest whatsoever in trying to even fully comprehend it and would rather just spew rhetoric.
@ FRaC, i think u are a reflection of all too many uneducated (loosely used here) voters. i am not sure what your objectives are for why you post on this thread as i mostly ignore them but they way u dismiss obama and what he is trying to do makes me want to vote for him so much more.
i haven't voted based on those either. my support for him has grown b/c of what he stands for and how he handles the issues. how he has handled this whole race issue recently is admirable and reaffirms my beliefs that he can be an incredibly effective president.
why FRaC do u seem to support eradicating this history? while many of the parks, rail stations, and numerous other structures make me uncomfortable they are incredibly powerful in their ability to communicate progress and serve as a reminder to all as to what each of us has evolved from. while none of us have actually been slave owners we all have been affected in some form or fashion by this country's history of slavery. maybe some of us more than others.
"Did I imply that ?"
Yes you did actually...if you meant o or not.
Look free we know youre incredulous, but white people saying theyre tired of feeling bad about slavery isnt what puts it behind us. Prejudice still exists, theres no way around that. It may not make us perfect to have this discussion right now but it does at least move us in the right direction.
In part, Obama gave that speech because he had to. Because of whatever happened politically with Wright and Ferraro in the last couple of days (all of which is absolutely ridiculous and surreal, and a kind of chimera created by the media.)
But I have to say that until his speech today, I didn't think much about Obama's race. I liked him because I liked him—and believed he would be an amazing president.
I think he's at risk, paradoxical as it may seem, when race becomes in any way central to this campaign, or to his message.
I feel like in the last couple of years the US has moved beyond its complexes about race. The secretary of state is black and a woman, a number of our most bankable film stars are black, increasing number of lawyers, doctors, and other professionals are black. Sure, discrimination still happens, but we're progressing, and that's important.
What will set us back now is to start again the endless conversations about race that were so polarizing in the past.
This sort of "you're racist!" "No, you're racist!" banter is exactly what we don't need, and what Obama was speaking against in his speech today.
"I feel like in the last couple of years the US has moved beyond its complexes about race."
K a t r i n a. We are nowhere near being beyond the complex of race. How many CEO's of Fortune 500 companies...and on and on. It is still a very big issue in this country and it is related to the past. And a token appointee is not putting us past race being an issue...Did you hear about the Louisiana noose incident?...again, ignorance is bliss.
And as far as I know, no one has called anyone a racist on this thread...ignorant, yes...racist...no.
First, jasoncross, I was referring to both the Ferraro and Wright incidents in my last sentence, not posters on this thread. Ferraro was yelling about racism, as was Wright.
Secondly, do you think that minorities have made no progress in this country in the last few years? You say token appointees, I say Rice is fourth in line to the presidency and arguably the most powerful woman in America (aside from Oprah Winfrey.) I'm not arguing that there's equality, but the situation is improving, and will continue to improve.
Yes, Katrina was a disaster, but talking endlessly about these issues, slapping wrists and chastising everyone and being a pessimist is not the way to go about fixing things. Being an optimist, looking at how things are getting better and working to make them even better, trying to bring people together rather than endlessly placing blame: that's a solution that people can believe in.
Jena 6 etc etc...this is current.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/21/car.nooses/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six
A tree that black students were not allowed to sit under...at a high school in the US...just last year.
My point is that it is by actually talking about it that does create change...not sticking ones head in the sand and saying that is change.
Slavery is washed with a broad brush in the US and never really discussed with the ugliness in which it was carried out. I was lucky enough to go to a heavily black university in undergrad and had a great history professor, Dr. Tyrone Tillery. What I learned in that class was absolutely horrifying, but also grounding in that it made me understand some of the issues within the black community. Their history, their issues, and their conflicts...not all Blacks...but in a much more specific understanding of the general reality of the history of slavery than I had ever been taught in my white upbringing.
Can you imagine if say people said get over the Holocaust...I mean it didn't happen yesterday...please.
Prison statistics, death penalty statistics, etc...email if you would like more information on current issues...jena 6 and many many more.
So, one person does not erase current injustices that are tied to past realities...to believe so I think is highly naive...but if it makes you sleep better...then by all means...believe what you will.
In the last few years I would say that there has been somewhat of a slip up myself...kids hanging nooses in schools is a new trend...and not one that lends me to think there has been a constructive discourse on the issue. I think it is great that a politician has the fortitude to speak openly on the subject. That gives me HOPE.
great example - we certainly don't blame german kids today for the holocaust. and i don't hear an outcry from the jewish community 'oh those racist nazi germans are keepin' me down! i could really do something except that holocaust happened and now i'm screwed!'
to blame problems in the african-american community on slavery is fucking ridiculous.
prison statistics? death penalty statistics? here's a simple way to reduce those numbers: DON'T COMMIT CRIMES. i HOPE people can understand this. you must take responsibility for yourself. the government is not going to fix your life for you.
and i know this won't change anyone's minds, but another perspective regarding 'jena 6':
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1024/p09s01-coop.html?page=1
Jena, La. - By now, almost everyone in America has heard of Jena, La., because they've all heard the story of the "Jena 6." White students hanging nooses barely punished, a schoolyard fight, excessive punishment for the six black attackers, racist local officials, public outrage and protests – the outside media made sure everyone knew the basics.
There's just one problem: The media got most of the basics wrong. In fact, I have never before witnessed such a disgrace in professional journalism. Myths replaced facts, and journalists abdicated their solemn duty to investigate every claim because they were seduced by a powerfully appealing but false narrative of racial injustice.
I should know. I live in Jena. My wife has taught at Jena High School for many years. And most important, I am probably the only reporter who has covered these events from the very beginning.
The reason the Jena cases have been propelled into the world spotlight is two-fold: First, because local officials did not speak publicly early on about the true events of the past year, the media simply formed their stories based on one-side's statements – the Jena 6. Second, the media were downright lazy in their efforts to find the truth. Often, they simply reported what they'd read on blogs, which expressed only one side of the issue.
The real story of Jena and the Jena 6 is quite different from what the national media presented. It's time to set the record straight.
Myth 1: The Whites-Only Tree. There has never been a "whites-only" tree at Jena High School. Students of all races sat underneath this tree. When a student asked during an assembly at the start of school last year if anyone could sit under the tree, it evoked laughter from everyone present – blacks and whites. As reported by students in the assembly, the question was asked to make a joke and to drag out the assembly and avoid class.
(full story at above link)
Hmmm What was Merkel just doing in Israel?
"The Shoah fills us Germans with shame," she said, using the Hebrew word for the Holocaust in which 6 million Jews were killed. "I bow to the victims. I bow to all those who helped the survivors."
Wrong again Free.
I know people who went to the school Free...I don't need your link to know what happened.
Next you will tell me that James Byrd Jr. deserved what he got too, huh? Yep, no race issues here...please move along.
Also, I linked to the Wiki on the matter...not the media...the cnn was in reference to copy cat incidents of nooses during protests after....you are quite the distorter...
EDITORIAL
Mr. Obama’s Profile in Courage
Published: March 19, 2008
There are moments — increasingly rare in risk-abhorrent modern campaigns — when politicians are called upon to bare their fundamental beliefs. In the best of these moments, the speaker does not just salve the current political wound, but also illuminates larger, troubling issues that the nation is wrestling with.
Inaugural addresses by Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt come to mind, as does John F. Kennedy’s 1960 speech on religion, with its enduring vision of the separation between church and state. Senator Barack Obama, who has not faced such tests of character this year, faced one on Tuesday. It is hard to imagine how he could have handled it better.
Mr. Obama had to address race and religion, the two most toxic subjects in politics. He was as powerful and frank as Mitt Romney was weak and calculating earlier this year in his attempt to persuade the religious right that his Mormonism is Christian enough for them.
It was not a moment to which Mr. Obama came easily. He hesitated uncomfortably long in dealing with the controversial remarks of his spiritual mentor and former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., who denounced the United States as endemically racist, murderous and corrupt.
On Tuesday, Mr. Obama drew a bright line between his religious connection with Mr. Wright, which should be none of the voters’ business, and having a political connection, which would be very much their business. The distinction seems especially urgent after seven years of a president who has worked to blur the line between church and state.
Mr. Obama acknowledged his strong ties to Mr. Wright. He embraced him as the man “who helped introduce me to my Christian faith,” and said that “as imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me.”
Wisely, he did not claim to be unaware of Mr. Wright’s radicalism or bitterness, disarming the speculation about whether he personally heard the longtime pastor of his church speak the words being played and replayed on YouTube. Mr. Obama said Mr. Wright’s comments were not just potentially offensive, as politicians are apt to do, but “rightly offend white and black alike” and are wrong in their analysis of America. But, he said, many Americans “have heard remarks from your pastors, priests or rabbis with which you strongly disagree.”
Mr. Obama’s eloquent speech should end the debate over his ties to Mr. Wright since there is nothing to suggest that he would carry religion into government. But he did not stop there. He put Mr. Wright, his beliefs and the reaction to them into the larger context of race relations with an honesty seldom heard in public life.
Mr. Obama spoke of the nation’s ugly racial history, which started with slavery and Jim Crow, and continues today in racial segregation, the school achievement gap and discrimination in everything from banking services to law enforcement.
He did not hide from the often-unspoken reality that people on both sides of the color line are angry. “For the men and women of Reverend Wright’s generation,” he said, “the memories of humiliation and fear have not gone away, nor the anger and the bitterness of those years.”
At the same time, many white Americans, Mr. Obama noted, do not feel privileged by their race. “In an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero-sum game,” he said, adding that both sides must acknowledge that the other’s grievances are not imaginary.
He made the powerful point that while these feelings are not always voiced publicly, they are used in politics. “Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan coalition,” he said.
Against this backdrop, he said, he could not repudiate his pastor. “I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community,” he said. “I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother.” That woman whom he loves deeply, he said, “once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street” and more than once “uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.”
There have been times when we wondered what Mr. Obama meant when he talked about rising above traditional divides. This was not such a moment.
We can’t know how effective Mr. Obama’s words will be with those who will not draw the distinctions between faith and politics that he drew, or who will reject his frank talk about race. What is evident, though, is that he not only cleared the air over a particular controversy — he raised the discussion to a higher plane.
This speech was like being served a huge slab of prime rib after 30 years of eating nothing but McDonald's. Having gotten a taste of the real deal, how can we now go back to the way things were before?
I thought the whole point of Obama's speech was that we should understand how we got here, where we are and how to get to the better place. So blaming others for our bad hand isn't productive, but neither is saying (pretending really) that everyone got exactly the same hand to start out with is also not productive. You are responsible for your own actions, but society at large has to always be conscious of the choices available to the person at the time and react accordingly.
Its not as bad as it was, but its not as good as it needs to be. How hard is that to effin' understand people? If you continue to bicker about the details, everyone loses.
I do have to say after reading the speech, regardless of the outcome in November, he won the truly big prize - he just moved the country forward.
word .
After 8 years of lies and having a President who asleep at the wheel, it was both alien and refreshing to hear someone get up their and speak the truth about race in America.
Imagine if we can do this about health care? Iraq?
This is very exciting!
You worry me Ramos.
well put LIG!
voters should judge a candidate not only on their past, but how they run their existing campaign:
Obama was not afraid to address the issue. He did so diplomatically and in a sensitive way in which he did not alienate someone he disagrees with, but rather saw valid issues on each side. He addressed each side- and began to get to the root of the issue, recognizing that it is a deeply threaded web that has been woven in this country regarding race and religion.
THAT is how you begin to negotiate. I would be more than happy to send a man like that to negotiate with Iran, Korea, or wherever. He would be able to try to understand each side, not alienate someone (or a country), and negotiate.
THANK GOD.
and farwest...
i agree with you as well- i actually wouldn't have voted for him based on his race- as it really makes no difference. but being in an interracial relationship myself, and seeing people stare, i admire others who have a similar situation and handle it with dignity and grace.
i actually was torn about who i would be voting for- and no it wasn't hillary. but now i believe i have made my decision. his speech yesterday was so moving + powerful, i thought i was back at Hampton for a moment.
<quote>great example - we certainly don't blame german kids today for the holocaust. and i don't hear an outcry from the jewish community 'oh those racist nazi germans are keepin' me down! i could really do something except that holocaust happened and now i'm screwed!'
to blame problems in the african-american community on slavery is fucking ridiculous.
prison statistics? death penalty statistics? here's a simple way to reduce those numbers: DON'T COMMIT CRIMES. i HOPE people can understand this. you must take responsibility for yourself. the government is not going to fix your life for you.</quote>
Great post.
I've just started reading a book which I believe many americans (and african americans especially) need to read. It is absolutely brilliant and addresses this issue.
It is called "Capitalist Nigger". SHOCK! HORROR! The N-Word!
It is written by a brilliant Nigerian man who has been living in the US for 26 years. I don't agree with everything he says as I find he advocates a rather seperatist approach, but his basic ideas are extremely important.
http://www.amazon.com/Capitalist-Nigger-Success-Spider-Doctrine/dp/0967846099/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205932410&sr=8-1
...apparently i have no idea how to quote.
i'm wondering if some architects here on this post just so happen to not remember anything about the 50's and 60's regarding mortgages, lending, and housing...
the term predatory lending was not coined for the recession of '08.
people remember these things because they were themselves ALIVE during segregation, or when the suburbs were whites only, or even one of my past professors who was one of the first black men to graduate from Harvard with a degree in architecture.
oh, wait, even better ... THE first black man to graduate from UVA just had a ceremony a few weeks ago- which he attended- to celebrate the 11,000 or so African-Americans who have graduated from UVA since he graduated in 1953- Walter N. Ridley:
http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=4291
only 11,000 African-American graduates from UVA since 1953?!?!?!
are you fucking serious?!?! in 55 years only 11,000. yes, my friends, issues of race IS current.
but some ppl on this board would have u to believe that black folks choose not to go to uva. they are apparently too busy coming up with conspiracy's about how the white man holds them down.
i can't even take FRaC and chopsky seriously. i think they are trolls that just get some sick kick out of this.
do you two think it's just a coincidence that the most historically oppressed people in this country have the hardest time presently. at what point did the effects of slavery cease to exist? the systems in this country are designed to keep people down. and if you don't believe that check out any native american reservation in this country.
reservations isolate the problems that have always existed in the black communities. the welfare system operates to get people by just enough but not enough to get ahead. it takes an incredible strong willed and motivated person to break from this cycle. i suppose that is what we call progress.
i don't disagree, but is it the issue that this election should turn around? i enjoyed obama's speech yesterday. i agree with most everything he said and found it quite eloquently delivered, but now instead of the economy, instead of the war, instead of the environment, obama has put race forward as the central issue of this election.
this country is not perfect, but it can be perfected.
this quote from obama's speech yesterday sums up why i could never vote for him. he is a leader who is constantly replaying the past to achieve better outcomes instead of trying to understand current circumstances to lead us to a better future. it's a fundamental philosophical difference. obama wants to keep replaying 1968 to achieve a desired outcome rather than attempting to lead us into 2010, 2020. sorry, folks, it ain't 1968.
i am still blown away that people can dumb down such a complex situation to something like this...
"to blame problems in the african-american community on slavery is fucking ridiculous.
prison statistics? death penalty statistics? here's a simple way to reduce those numbers: DON'T COMMIT CRIMES. i HOPE people can understand this. you must take responsibility for yourself. the government is not going to fix your life for you."
1 in 15 black adult males are in prison...
1 in 9 black men aged 20-34.
thats over 10% of the whole population...
are you so incredibly stupid as to think this happens because blacks dont take responsibility for their own lives?
are you completely blind? have you never seen the projects? you think people live there because they want to?
do you think its coincidence that the life expectancy of a white male is almost 10 years more than that of a black male?
Do blacks just enjoy dying young?
Its apparently a complete coincidence that minorities have less money, less education, poorer neighborhoods, less health care and less opportunity...
they must just all be irresponsible...
jafidler, is what he spoke about not current? i would argue that he has a keen sense of just what is current. he has avoided making race an issue and was only forced to make this speech in light of current events. an understanding of the past and history shows us how we got to where we are. should we also forget about the last 7 years of the current administration? keeping these issues in the closet doesn't make them go away. we have pretended like everything is okay for way too long. i am not saying this is the platform he should be running on but it IS an issue that needs addressing.
My friend's grandmom's mom's was a slave and grew up in virginia in the early part of this century. Needless to say, grams don't trust white folk much.
Its hard to get over that shit when either you lived through slavery/jim crow/etc or get to live vicariously through it via loved ones at the dinner table and hear about the days when black men would be lynched for even looking at a white woman.
I don't really see how Katrina is a race issue though, I think the media painted it in that light. Katrina illustrates perfectly how incompetent the Governments of NO, LO, and the US are respectively.
HE'S not the one that has made race an issue. he was forced into it - indeed tried to ignore it - by the hillary campaign and the media's hoopla about wright. after realizing he couldn't avoid it, he gave a well-crafted response and went beyond, giving the background for his positions and showing that, indeed, his positions have depth based on consideration (despite ongoing criticisms that his positions are shallow).
who says that the campaign all of a sudden will center on race, jafidler? if race now becomes central it won't be because obama did it.
witness: that speech was yesterday. today obama will talk about iraq.
^agreed w/ SW, i am very glad Obama kept race out of it until the media pulled him into it
I have rarely ever seen a politician act with such grace a truth when confronted by that. He seriously needs to be elected.
"I don't really see how Katrina is a race issue though"
Many white developers were praying for something like that to come (and were very happy when it finally did) so that they could gain access to land for development which otherwise they would not have been able to get...happened in many of the coastal hit areas...my uncle is one of those developers...this is from within my family, not media...race was and still is a big part of the Katrina story...although, I wish it were not the case.
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