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for marcel breuer's admirers

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joshcookie

ftp has been updated with architectural and structural scans of the original document. Yipee!

Feb 6, 07 5:34 pm  · 
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Sarah Hamilton

How can I get FTP access?

Feb 6, 07 5:35 pm  · 
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JMBarquero/squirrelly

contact Joshcookie via email (just click on his name) and then you will be added to the list of those that are being emailed, etc.

Feb 6, 07 5:43 pm  · 
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brian buchalski

...so last friday aml asked how tall the library was and i delved into my memory and offered up and estimate of 25 feet based on my visit. this evening i finally get a look at the drawings and it turns out that from the finish grade to the top of the roof slab is...24 feet, 11 1/2 inches. not perfect, but close enough for me. bedtime.

Feb 7, 07 12:43 am  · 
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hmmn. building must have grown by .5"..

Feb 7, 07 12:48 am  · 
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or they built it 25'.

Feb 7, 07 12:50 am  · 
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We should all be getting IDP credit for this. Wait I just joined make that beam thicker. Thicker I said damnit!!

Feb 7, 07 1:06 am  · 
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Chili Davis

Puddles, you can blame the difference on soil erosion.

Feb 7, 07 9:44 am  · 
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AP

that margin is far less than a typical contractors margin of error...


thanks for your effort everybody. the featured thread is in the works, to be posted later today. As it stands, the dates for the Charrette are being set as Feb7-21.

does that sound reasonable for the Detroit crew that may need time for the physical exhibit and/or presentation? or do you think we could/should extend the deadline, as to not end it on Wednesday (21st), but maybe that Fri(23rd) or Sat(24th)?

Feb 7, 07 10:10 am  · 
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the exhibit materials aren't necessary until the middle of the next week (thurs, 1 mar).

the meeting with the board will require compilation into booklets and/or loading of info onto cd-roms. this meeting (mon, 26 feb) i think becomes the critical date. all materials should be compiled by the 25th so we know what we're presenting. so friday (23rd) at the latest, i'd say.

Feb 7, 07 10:17 am  · 
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AP

do other agents on the ground feel alright about the 23rd?

Feb 7, 07 12:09 pm  · 
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Chili Davis

The 23rd feels groovy.

Feb 7, 07 12:47 pm  · 
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JMBarquero/squirrelly

sounds good to me as well but does this mean this is the submittal deadline or the submittal to the board? (ie: we need editing time, no?)

Feb 7, 07 12:50 pm  · 
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Chili Davis

I think ending it on a Friday is alright.

If I understand this correctly, submittal deadline tenatively Feb. 23, presentation to the board Feb. 26, and a public exibition on Mar. 1?

Feb 7, 07 12:54 pm  · 
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brian buchalski

well, i guess it depends on how much material we get but my first thought is that we're not left with much time if we keep it open until the 23rd and then hope to deliver something to the board meeting on the 26th.

do we have any idea what the board is potentially expecting from us on the 26th? i'm assuming this meeting isn't going to revolve around our proposals/charrette results, but are we slated for 5 mins? a half hour? how much else do they have planned that evening? or are we just hoping to hit them with a quick preview for the upcoming exhibit/presentation on march 1st so that they're in the loop as to what's going on? this exhibit/presentation is with an open public audience in mind correct? will they're be any press coverage?

i guess my vote would be for the 21st rather than the 23rd.

Feb 7, 07 12:58 pm  · 
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liberty bell

Jeez, that is soon....

Feb 7, 07 12:58 pm  · 
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JMBarquero/squirrelly

yeah that's why I asked that Lib Bell....and I am with puddles on this...because it will depend on those factors as well as the # of submissions (even if it's just from "us").

Feb 7, 07 1:06 pm  · 
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Chili Davis

I think a week is enough time to prep materials for an exhibit, but we do need to know what the board is expecting. I think that is key right now. How much time do we need to put together something for them?

Feb 7, 07 1:08 pm  · 
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won and done williams

I'm feeling a little confused about the schedule as well. The board meeting on the 26th seems key, but how is all of our material going to be presented and in what format? There was talk on the email thread of using DVD presentations. Is this officially the format? Is everyone comfortable with this? Personally, I'm not sure a DVD presentation will have the same impact as boards. Obviously the downside of boards, is that not all teams will be there to present them. Still, I think graphic representation both at the board meeting and for the exhibition of work is critical.

Also, who is going to be the person in Detroit to receive all of the DVDs? In order to get everything to Detroit on time, teams should mail their DVDs at least 2-3 days before the 26th.

Then in regards to the actual presentation, who will be there in person to make the formal presentation to the board and click play on the DVD player? Maybe I got lost in the flurry of emails through the contact list, but it seems there are a lot of open-ended questions.

Feb 7, 07 1:10 pm  · 
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joshcookie

Out here, we are trying to set it up as follows,
an evening design charrette for everyone together to get info, brainstorm and rough out some ideas (to be completed before the 15th or 17th). We then send them home to clean up their work and submit (via email) by whatever date we can come up with. I am fine with either the 21st or 23rd, but will defer to the folks that need to cull the submissions and re-format.
j

Feb 7, 07 1:12 pm  · 
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brian buchalski

jeepers, liberty bell, you're right. what we really need to do is get them to slow down this whole "new library" process a bit. does it really have to go to a vote this november? they have a rare opportunity to offer an exceptional architect a plum chance to enhance their community with it's grace for the next fifty years (at least)...provided they take their time and do it correctly. i now they need some additional public funds (hence the vote) but they must be drawing interest on everything they've raised so far, right?

Feb 7, 07 1:13 pm  · 
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brian buchalski

in other words, i would much rather have the exhibit in early march with a more complete presentation/discussion of opportunities occupying the march 26th board meeting...but maybe that's just wishful thinking here.

Feb 7, 07 1:16 pm  · 
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liberty bell

It all really hinges on when the RFP needs to go out, correct? And we want to have some impact on that process? So CAN we push back a month, or not? Sorry I don't recall how the schedule came to be set - Steven I'm afraid I'm defaulting to you here.

Feb 7, 07 1:27 pm  · 
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joshcookie

Good point Puddles,
The question then is if we do put off our presentation to the board, will we miss our opportunity to affect the rfp. The library program mentions that the consultant assumed that the library wouldn't be operating until 2020. So they do seem to be rushing to beat that by quite a bit.
j

Feb 7, 07 1:28 pm  · 
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the library intends to have an architect hired by the end of march. their intention is that the rfp will go out the first week of march so that firms have 2-3 weeks response time.

if we present to the board end of feb, we have the opportunity to affect the rfp and get people thinking of the possibilities for using the existing building early in the process BUT our work will be less mature.

if we present to the board end of mar, we will only have the opportunity to affect the direction they give their already-hired architect, but our work will be more developed.

i was voting for the shorter timeline because: i think the earlier people start thinking about making something great out of what they have the better, we have the potential to affect attitudes before an architect is hired, and it gives a reasonable end to what will probably be a biggish time commitment for those involved.

we should remember that we will not be designing this thing. someone else will design it.

we're giving ideas and planting seeds and MAKING NOISE. we want to show how much richer a community grosse pointe will be by keeping this landmark, how much more of a landmark the library will be, and that their needs can be met.

Feb 7, 07 1:36 pm  · 
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liberty bell

Agreed, Steven. I think the short, passionate engagement with the project is going to be more fruitful in terms of ideas and making noise.

I only worry about the burden this puts on puddles, et al who might be trying to get all the info together at the end. Notwithstanding that concern, let's stick with the short deadline.

Feb 7, 07 1:43 pm  · 
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brian buchalski

i concur with steven in that we need to stick to the aggressive time schedule because of the board's desire to hire an architect by the end of march. if we take the chance to speak our mind early then we might still be able to influence their schedule. otherwise, we'll be reduced to trying to raise public awareness for a nay vote in november...and i'm sure the library will really be happy with us then.

Feb 7, 07 1:48 pm  · 
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AP

jafidler - the submission format is 11x17 paper.

the DVD is only a potential means to package OUR presentation to the board. There can still be a live presentation, but the DVD gives us a solid, inclusive leave-behind.

one DVD prepared by us.
many 11x17 boards prepared by anyone interested in the charrette.


all,
one thing we haven't talked much about lately is how to stir up interest among firms that we would want to receive this RFP, or, for that matter, how to convince the library to give the RFP to more than their current group of architects...

Feb 7, 07 2:29 pm  · 
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presumably the boards will have to be printed? we're not asking for hardcopies, only .jpgs or .tifs or something, right?

we can probably wrangle some help with printing costs, but we'd need to know what to tell a benefactor to expect in terms of numbers and that seems unknowable at this point. ideas?

Feb 7, 07 2:35 pm  · 
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yeah, we should begin to compile a list of people we want to notify about the rfp, make sure we have correct contact info, and wait for the rfp to drop.

seems like that can be phase ii: not much action we need to take now and we can concentrate on the charretting.

more critical might be getting in contact with whomever is preparing the rfp - somebody markesano (?) is the owner's rep hired by the library. they'll be pretty close to finished drafting it by the time the end of feb rolls around and disinclined to make wholesale changes. if we can discuss with them leaving openings for save-the-breuer language to be dropped in, if the board is sympathetic on the 26th, it might make things run more smoothly.

Feb 7, 07 2:40 pm  · 
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AP

yes. submissions will be digital files, sent to an email address.

great idea re: setting ourselves up to impact the RFP language before it's too late. do we have contact info for the owner's rep, or the owner's blessing to contact them?

Feb 7, 07 2:46 pm  · 
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won and done williams

Thanks for clarifying, AP. I think 11x17 pdfs will assist the printer greatly rather than jpg/tifs.

Feb 7, 07 3:12 pm  · 
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AP

any other thoughts on pdf vs. tif/jpeg?

my concern with pdf is that the submissions will also curated into an online gallery...

in the end, a pdf book can be made from the image files...

?

Feb 7, 07 3:20 pm  · 
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won and done williams

pdfs are just click and print out of acrobat. tif/jpg means printing out of photoshop, possible formatting issues (i.e. images not sized properly, etc.) and then of course file size. I feel pretty strongly that pdfs will produce a more consistent result and be much easier in the long run. (This sounds like a whole 'nother thread;-)

Feb 7, 07 3:36 pm  · 
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joshcookie

No preference on image type, both can be fairly easily converted to the other.

On a another note, underground parking per square foot, based on Means sf and Saylor is between 70-80/sf base on concrete construction with 10 ft story heights. It gets cheaper per sf when you have multiple levels. Just in case anyone was considering it.

j

Feb 7, 07 3:37 pm  · 
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brian buchalski

ok a little bit more charretting from me...

given that the existing building is about 19,000 square feet and that they wanted to add another 35,000 square feet, i just took the original



...and cloned a couple more "breuer blocks"...



...the possiblities are now endless (except for those pesky height & parking restrictions)...



could any parking be placed on the roof?



if only they could get on the roof, then maybe we could add a drive-in theater screen...



...i'll concede that there might be better solutions than this...hmmm

Feb 8, 07 11:13 pm  · 
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what, are you trying to scare the pants off of any GP'rs following this thing, puddles? ; )

we have a couple of those old groceries in louisville with the parking on the roof. i always thought they were nifty/cool, but can you imagine trying to clean off the parking lot after a good michigan snow? heat rising from the building would probably melt a light snow, but a heavy one would basically shut down the library to anyone that had to drive.

actually (despite the result) that's a pretty good graphic analysis of what we're working with. a little imagery like that might help in the proposal to the board, just for illustration/diagramming purposes. save it!

Feb 9, 07 7:45 am  · 
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the talk of the town in grosse pointe farms!

this cartoon, an op-ed with the headline 'central branch must be saved', and 3 angry letters arguing against the demolition ran in the grosse pointe news this week. the paper also included announcements of three public meetings which will be held to discuss the library's plans. unfortunately i have not ready any of this, only heard about it from a local person sympathetic to our efforts. the paper's webpage is a pay site, so i can't post the text of the editorial.

Feb 9, 07 8:45 am  · 
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AP

wow. that's great to hear, Steven.

Feb 9, 07 8:54 am  · 
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liberty bell

Sadly bugmenot didn't help this time, either. Can anyone go get a copy of the paper?

Feb 9, 07 9:00 am  · 
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∑ π ∓ √ ∞

i have not looked at any of the material, yet, but keep in mind the square footage consumed by parking structures - ramps are pita. i feel some push come to shove attitude towards the program and parking will need to happen. has anyone sought out a consultant dealing with libraries to evaluate where libraries are heading?

Feb 9, 07 9:01 am  · 
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vado retro

ah puddles when i proposed the drive in library with carhops, i was only kidding....

Feb 9, 07 9:43 am  · 
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AP

bit of a tangent, but here are a few shots of the Whitney Museum of American Art (1963-66) on my flickr page. This is how I came to know and love the work of Breuer. In my 3rd year of undergrad, I was the TA for a first year design studio. The professor had them looking at 3 museums by a 'lineage' of architects:

The Whitney, by Breuer
The High Art, by Meier, who worked in Breuer's office
and the Museum of Folk Art (MFA), by Tod Williams and Billie Tsein. Williams worked in Meier's office.
hence, the lineage...


part of my independent study credit involved a comparative analysis of the Whitney and the MFA. This trip was taken after turning in the initial paper, for the express purpose of visiting these 2 projects. I put a bit more into the paper (including illustrations and other visual analysis) after the trip, but I never turned in a second version...

since it was going to be my first time to NYC, the family decided to meet me there...although they were understanding that I wanted to dedicate my time to architecture...My mom even let me drag her to MoMA Queens on our way to the airport...luggage in hand.

we did go see Movin' Out (Billy Joel inspired musical) on Broadway together...that was very cool...

Feb 9, 07 10:43 am  · 
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brian buchalski

nice tangent, i love both the whitney & the museum of folk art. much better than moma. although dia:beacon is still favorite art space.

Feb 9, 07 11:04 am  · 
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brian buchalski

steven- great cartoon. i wish i had better access to the grosse pointe newspaper...maybe i should buy a web subscription. i'll have to look into that. and, no, i wasn't trying to scare the locals with the above library proposal...just trying to flesh out a possibility. besides, i'd be more scared of attempting to build that design than they would probably be of having it. in the diagrammatic sense, i probably should have included an accurate representation of all the cars needed (according to the conventional calculations)...that'd be more informative.

google in a building...so now i know

Feb 9, 07 11:50 am  · 
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joshcookie

As long as we are tangential here. My first Breuer moment was as a freshman in college at the U. of Minn. I was on the rugby team and we played at St. John's. The whole campus just had my jaw on the ground. I was shocked at the way he used concrete, unbelievable. BTW anyone take a look at the structure on the inside of this thing. Nice force diagram for those of you in school, over the double height space. Pretty dramatic way to transfer the force.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17556660@N00/382440279/

j

Feb 9, 07 11:50 am  · 
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Chili Davis

In the news.

Feb 9, 07 1:31 pm  · 
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∑ π ∓ √ ∞

this was slidding down the list while the antithetical topic was having more action...

i have a couple of problems.

given the nature and scope of the program as stated, is it even possible to come up with a honestly viable solution - you know, given budget, code, zoning and other issues?

if the answer is no then a re-examination of the program is not only called for but urgently required. not only that, but perhaps a re-examination of what this location should serve to become for the community, perhaps a library is not it, at least not in the traditional sense. I mean it seems that even if they bulldoze this building and satisfy all of the program, it will overwhelm the site, scale and surrounding context of the neighborhood!

not to mention that the nature of what constitutes a library is sooo 20th century, it does not even take into account that places like Borders, B&N, and Amazon have made purchasing books so damn cheap, that just about anyone can afford to buy any book they want, right from there own home and have it delivered, If they don't want to purchase, Google and other websites offer services to view books online, trade books, etc...keep in mind the affluent community we are dealing with here as well.....

what about netflix, blockbuster.com? why go to the store to rent a video, a ps3 game when you can rent and have it delivered and returned from the comfort of your livingroom????

given our call to arms, does it not make sense - and because of the known artwork present - that this building become some kind of cultural center/network/art gallery/education space/retail/ and perhaps some limited book lending location, that could disseminate information regarding the building, the architect, the art and artist, its importance to the region, to architecture and art? at the same time becoming a gateway to the other branches of the library, perhaps a local book depository could be incorporated.

i just think they need to move away from the idea of this satisfying their programmatic needs and look at another location for a new building altogether or stop the charade of entertaining the idea that we could affect some change, because i think it's disingenuous for them to suggest that they are open to other ideas, when it seems there really are any plausible ones available.

Feb 9, 07 11:49 pm  · 
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all good points, beta.

BUT, according to people in grosse pointe, despite the other avenues for media that beta mentions, library use is growing. with two new branches open, they still have high demand at this one.

there has been a search for a new site for a new library. no luck.

i'm not sure it's been determined that there aren't 'any plausible' solutions available. they've had the opinion of one architect. in the 80s they had the opinion of another architect who thought that it could work to expand the current facility. they just haven't seen enough alternatives.

to your point about the size/scale of new or expanded branch in the community, it's a good question and one that i'll certainly struggle with in an expansion scheme.

i also think you're right that libraries are evolving institutions. not that they should go away, but they will certainly be different. we recently had a visit from bill mitchell and his mit media lab folks for a charrette on our louisville library's expansion plans, and the nature of 21st century libraries was exactly the topic. (now that i'm thinking about this, i'll have to try to get a document of this event to forward to the board...)

Feb 10, 07 7:22 am  · 
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∑ π ∓ √ ∞

steven, i really haven't had a chance to completely analyze the MAPA info, i downloaded most of it, and reviewed most of the material. it just seems that whatever solutions that come out of the charetting will seemingly overwhelm the existing building, especially when you consider a parking structure. the back of the site does not seem ample enough to provide the necessary parking/program for the stated goals. not to mention there seems to be - at least from the civil dwgs - some kind access to ancillary parking [for the athletic facility?] on the west or east side near the track, that connects to the existing library parking. please know, that i applaud the efforts and would like to help out anyway i can, it's perhaps that i think while the building is worth saving - i really like it, even the vertical slot windows - the program and function may not be and should be rethought by GP and perhaps MAPA.

Feb 10, 07 7:40 am  · 
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