dang puddles, my 90 minute yoga class tonight doesn't touch that...
nice start indeed guys. the siting that you both chose feels like the right thing to do, but you've both already suggested it, so i'm gonna try to come up with an alternative...
pardon me for harping but i am going to harp again:
should some aspect of this effort include a "feasibility study"? if they already "did" one that shows renovation to be untenable, isn't it quite important that we do one to show that it is, indeed, very tenable? costs, program, etc? or do people assume this is inherent in the charrette? if we show up with design concepts and don't have the proof they will work for their needs, this may be futile. it is important to remember the library board is a very well-educated group and thinking mostly from the business side. they will want numbers more than designs in the end.
I am with you hckybg. Problem is, I haven't seen the program. Once I have that, then I can do more than conceptually talk about saving window funtion and general massing, cause that's all I got right now. I included in the model, you can see it just peeking under the dirt skirt, about 80 -100 parking spaces, with a ramp coming down the east side of the existing library, I can go down up to 12' with a 1:10 ramp there. There will need to be underpinning as a precaution on the library, but otherwise I can't think of any reason why we cant sink to level of parking under the existing. Once the parking can be reasonably be assumed, the program seems to be the limit on square footage of the addition. In my current massing of 3 stories I can accomodate nearly 30,000 sf of programable space, not including the center courtyard or whatever it ends up being. With my assumed existing of 10-15,000, that puts me in line with the currently proposed scrape and replace scheme currently on the table. So, once we get solid program and existing conditions, feasibility will follow. Right now, all we can do is play with what would make an appropriate addition to the existing.
j
you're not harping. i agree that this is a critical ingredient.
one of the articles on the library foundation site quotes the "pro-bono" architect as saying that underground parking costs 25-30k a stall. Maybe we get info on other construction/reno costs from the local AIA...
In plans unveiled to the library board on Monday, July 25, by architect James Mumby, a principal with Fanning Howey Assoc., expansion of the Central Branch Library would require underground parking beneath Grosse Pointe South High School's boys ball field. An artificial turf diamond would be replaced over the underground parking level.
"The issue is ultimately going to be parking," Mumby told the board. "If you want to expand on this site, this is the nature of the solution. I am assuming we cannot have the ball field. You either have to go under the ball field or above it."
...
Mumby said he was not given any directives other than to come up with what it would take to expand the Central Branch. He came back with two plans. One would replace the existing building. The other would add a second building the same size as the existing structure in the current parking lot behind the Central Branch. It would also renovate the existing building. A replacement two-story building of 52,000 square feet would be supported by single-level underground parking with 150 spaces.
Mumby said he is assuming all parking would have to be on-site. He said municipal parking ordinances call for one parking space for every 150 square feet of usable space. However, he said that requirement is based on more intense use than a public library.
He believes the library board can negotiate for a lesser requirement of one space for every 300 square feet of usable space...
Underground parking, however, could not be extended under the existing library and would be roughly limited to the size of the baseball field and incorporate about 140 parking spaces. Under the 1-to-300 formula, the existing library space would be roughly doubled to 42,000 square feet.
Mumby said underground parking costs between $25,000 and $35,000 a stall to build, or roughly $3.5 million to $5.25 million...
He said it is premature to estimate construction costs.
hey steven, i was just looking at your sketch again. are you proposing to utilize the existing roof of the breuer library as an exterior terrrace? that's nice. i wonder if the building is suitably constructed to handle such loads.
i'm sure it could be accomplished. a move like that goes a long way to making the GPers see this old builing in a new light. "an exterior terrace? on the roof?!?"
thanks for the quick responses. i am less concerned about the informed folks in this forum and more thinking of when we turn it out to others. i think we should emphasize the level of thought you obviously put into your work, josh. the best counterargument will speak the language they have already been speaking (while accomplishing all the holistic goals we are outlining here).
our firm does charettes all the time. we take the program, rough out the big zoning and code issues and then design a building and present the ideas to the client. they say great and then it all gets changed and watered down at a later date.
yes, that was my initial thought. the fanning/howey scheme sounds like it has a cafe, so i was trying to imagine a different way that could make sense as part of really leveraging the existing building. a terrace doesn't suggest big roof loads, ultimately, and the structure, as seen in sheet's photos, looks pretty stout considering it's only carrying roof loads right now.
another thought illustrated in my sketch is aligning with the existing parapet a sort of glass/open upper library floor would begin to make the addition not look too massive. on the footprint i'm looking at, the addition would have to rise above the breuer, but we'd still want to defer to the breuer and not loom above.
similar parking strategy to josh's, though he's thought more about it at this point.
true, hckybg, while we should feature the drawings, there should certainly be some fine print that tells the analytical story of what we propose with each scheme - how it works.
does anybody know the aprox height of the library and what are the max. building heights allowed in the area? [not that i'm thinking that tall, i would just like to know]
ok, here's a quick and dirty one along the same route as joshcookie [atrium to join/separate buildings] but more massive... just to see what happens. the parking would be underground or under the baseball field.
i think a cafeteria on the top floor of the new building could look out to the baseball and football fields- would be a nice place to relax as you see the kids playing or practicing.
vado, is yours a revolving restaurant? : ) i like!
vado, your scheme has already been rejected by the library board. try not to be too discouraged...you've still got some time for a new proposal.
aml, wild guess=maybe 25' tall??? i don't know if grosse pointe has any height restrictions but keep in mind that it is mostly residential, single family detached. in other words, three stories is probably considered tall and 4 stories might be borderline scandalous. i believe i read (wiki entry?) that the tallest structure in town was the tower at the high school (approx. 138' tall if i recall correctly). sorry i don't have a metric translation off the top of my head.
The height restriction is 55 ft, or so I remember reading in one of the meeting minutes.
I prefer trace, but it actually takes me longer than doing it in Revit. I try to work back and forth, but I haven't had access to a scanner recently so you all just get to see the Revit stuff.
j
ps. more in depth info will come to you lb, see your inbox.
From my experience at the site, the most visible elevation is not the one facing the street, but the one to the east. You see it prominently coming down the hill from Kercheval because of the openness of the ball field. Right now that elevation is very plain, a brick wall with staggered slit windows, and I think has contributed to the perception by some in the community of the building as a modern eyesore. As much as it seems any addition should feature the original building, I believe these side elevations, particularly the one to the east, are critical to enhancing the image of the building.
jafidler has a good point about the prominence of the library as seen from the east. take a closer at montage013 that i posted on page 3 where you can see the library at the end of the street (not really the end, it just bends there). this will be a very visible facade for everyone traveling along kercheval and also just for anybody milling about the small commercial district "up the hill".
Liberty, You will see my proposal when I get signed papers from the Board of Directors that they will include the Calder Mobile as part of fee for doing all this research. snicker...snicker....
i like the strategy but how many floors you got, squirrelly? looks like two, but it's higher than the existing building. are those double levels per window area?
also not sure they need THAT much additional space. if they're at 19,000sf (i think i read), then you're probably adding another 57,000sf. they're looking to total between 45,000 - 50,000sf.
we can probably expect that they can get access to land behind the building about the depth again of the current building. your rear leg looks to be beyond that point and therefore probably in property that the high school won't relinquish.
course all this would be easier if i layed the program on you all....but i didn't get it again today! arrgh!
could be steven....(the sq footage). As for the encroachment on the rear property line...well it's just a sketch, an idea. Just wanted to throw it out there. I guess we would need a dimensioned (sort of) site plan to the be able to really lay out a proper parti.
yes, we definitely need the survey. in the meantime, though, josh has provided a pretty good rendition of the site conditions in a drawing file on the ftp site. check it out.
and, yeah, the idea could be cool. maybe even develop the interior of the ring as a courtyard-ish thing. could be very nice.
somebody should explore minimizing the foot print by maximizing the allowable ht limit thus creating some open public space sort of anchoring the main street and also leaving the breuer building pretty much intact with some minor interior fixings. connection can be done below grade and i am assuming the location of 5 story tower after looking other more site informed drawings.
will do steven...
and almost forgot, but are we gonna start a new thread for the posting of potential solutions...or is paul/archinect moderators taking care of that??
just wondering (so we dont' thumb through 4 pages).
I believe this addition has to be minimalistic. The nature of it expessing itself invisible to the existing building and at the same time a powerful statement. It also needs to be respectful of the
neo-traditional aspects of Grosse Pointe. I don't think people are looking for a building to act as the epicenter of their community. Well at least not a modern building. When I read about people gushing about castle style homes in the 35,000 SF mode. I think it is best to let them carry on with their dreams of someday living there while we design a building which is functional and submissive to the existing library building in the same modern venue.
for marcel breuer's admirers
dang puddles, my 90 minute yoga class tonight doesn't touch that...
nice start indeed guys. the siting that you both chose feels like the right thing to do, but you've both already suggested it, so i'm gonna try to come up with an alternative...
pardon me for harping but i am going to harp again:
should some aspect of this effort include a "feasibility study"? if they already "did" one that shows renovation to be untenable, isn't it quite important that we do one to show that it is, indeed, very tenable? costs, program, etc? or do people assume this is inherent in the charrette? if we show up with design concepts and don't have the proof they will work for their needs, this may be futile. it is important to remember the library board is a very well-educated group and thinking mostly from the business side. they will want numbers more than designs in the end.
I am with you hckybg. Problem is, I haven't seen the program. Once I have that, then I can do more than conceptually talk about saving window funtion and general massing, cause that's all I got right now. I included in the model, you can see it just peeking under the dirt skirt, about 80 -100 parking spaces, with a ramp coming down the east side of the existing library, I can go down up to 12' with a 1:10 ramp there. There will need to be underpinning as a precaution on the library, but otherwise I can't think of any reason why we cant sink to level of parking under the existing. Once the parking can be reasonably be assumed, the program seems to be the limit on square footage of the addition. In my current massing of 3 stories I can accomodate nearly 30,000 sf of programable space, not including the center courtyard or whatever it ends up being. With my assumed existing of 10-15,000, that puts me in line with the currently proposed scrape and replace scheme currently on the table. So, once we get solid program and existing conditions, feasibility will follow. Right now, all we can do is play with what would make an appropriate addition to the existing.
j
Please excuse the typos, I only ran 4 miles this afternoon, so I am trying to make up with some speedy typing.
j
you're not harping. i agree that this is a critical ingredient.
one of the articles on the library foundation site quotes the "pro-bono" architect as saying that underground parking costs 25-30k a stall. Maybe we get info on other construction/reno costs from the local AIA...
from aug2005:
In plans unveiled to the library board on Monday, July 25, by architect James Mumby, a principal with Fanning Howey Assoc., expansion of the Central Branch Library would require underground parking beneath Grosse Pointe South High School's boys ball field. An artificial turf diamond would be replaced over the underground parking level.
"The issue is ultimately going to be parking," Mumby told the board. "If you want to expand on this site, this is the nature of the solution. I am assuming we cannot have the ball field. You either have to go under the ball field or above it."
...
Mumby said he was not given any directives other than to come up with what it would take to expand the Central Branch. He came back with two plans. One would replace the existing building. The other would add a second building the same size as the existing structure in the current parking lot behind the Central Branch. It would also renovate the existing building. A replacement two-story building of 52,000 square feet would be supported by single-level underground parking with 150 spaces.
Mumby said he is assuming all parking would have to be on-site. He said municipal parking ordinances call for one parking space for every 150 square feet of usable space. However, he said that requirement is based on more intense use than a public library.
He believes the library board can negotiate for a lesser requirement of one space for every 300 square feet of usable space...
Underground parking, however, could not be extended under the existing library and would be roughly limited to the size of the baseball field and incorporate about 140 parking spaces. Under the 1-to-300 formula, the existing library space would be roughly doubled to 42,000 square feet.
Mumby said underground parking costs between $25,000 and $35,000 a stall to build, or roughly $3.5 million to $5.25 million...
He said it is premature to estimate construction costs.
...
complete article here
hey steven, i was just looking at your sketch again. are you proposing to utilize the existing roof of the breuer library as an exterior terrrace? that's nice. i wonder if the building is suitably constructed to handle such loads.
i'm sure it could be accomplished. a move like that goes a long way to making the GPers see this old builing in a new light. "an exterior terrace? on the roof?!?"
thanks for the quick responses. i am less concerned about the informed folks in this forum and more thinking of when we turn it out to others. i think we should emphasize the level of thought you obviously put into your work, josh. the best counterargument will speak the language they have already been speaking (while accomplishing all the holistic goals we are outlining here).
our firm does charettes all the time. we take the program, rough out the big zoning and code issues and then design a building and present the ideas to the client. they say great and then it all gets changed and watered down at a later date.
yes, that was my initial thought. the fanning/howey scheme sounds like it has a cafe, so i was trying to imagine a different way that could make sense as part of really leveraging the existing building. a terrace doesn't suggest big roof loads, ultimately, and the structure, as seen in sheet's photos, looks pretty stout considering it's only carrying roof loads right now.
another thought illustrated in my sketch is aligning with the existing parapet a sort of glass/open upper library floor would begin to make the addition not look too massive. on the footprint i'm looking at, the addition would have to rise above the breuer, but we'd still want to defer to the breuer and not loom above.
similar parking strategy to josh's, though he's thought more about it at this point.
true, hckybg, while we should feature the drawings, there should certainly be some fine print that tells the analytical story of what we propose with each scheme - how it works.
does anybody know the aprox height of the library and what are the max. building heights allowed in the area? [not that i'm thinking that tall, i would just like to know]
all finished....
to approximate the building height just count the brick courses. three courses = 8 inches.
thanks vado, i just did it the 'metric' way and used the door height. and then translated to those weird units you guys use in the states.
shoot....I too feel like Im falling back (on this run) so-to-speak. Gotta catch up to josh...only ran 5 miles he other day!
ok, here's a quick and dirty one along the same route as joshcookie [atrium to join/separate buildings] but more massive... just to see what happens. the parking would be underground or under the baseball field.
i think a cafeteria on the top floor of the new building could look out to the baseball and football fields- would be a nice place to relax as you see the kids playing or practicing.
vado, is yours a revolving restaurant? : ) i like!
vado, your scheme has already been rejected by the library board. try not to be too discouraged...you've still got some time for a new proposal.
aml, wild guess=maybe 25' tall??? i don't know if grosse pointe has any height restrictions but keep in mind that it is mostly residential, single family detached. in other words, three stories is probably considered tall and 4 stories might be borderline scandalous. i believe i read (wiki entry?) that the tallest structure in town was the tower at the high school (approx. 138' tall if i recall correctly). sorry i don't have a metric translation off the top of my head.
joshcookie; I can't access the ftp site, am I doing something wrong? I'm sorry, I'm so not tech savvy.
vado and I are joining forces next weekend to knock out a fabulous design. We just need the info on the program, exg. building and site plan.
As per my first sentence, we won't be producing pretty Rhino renderings, but some nice trace sketches with kick-ass ideas. Yay!
The height restriction is 55 ft, or so I remember reading in one of the meeting minutes.
I prefer trace, but it actually takes me longer than doing it in Revit. I try to work back and forth, but I haven't had access to a scanner recently so you all just get to see the Revit stuff.
j
ps. more in depth info will come to you lb, see your inbox.
Food for thought:
From my experience at the site, the most visible elevation is not the one facing the street, but the one to the east. You see it prominently coming down the hill from Kercheval because of the openness of the ball field. Right now that elevation is very plain, a brick wall with staggered slit windows, and I think has contributed to the perception by some in the community of the building as a modern eyesore. As much as it seems any addition should feature the original building, I believe these side elevations, particularly the one to the east, are critical to enhancing the image of the building.
I'll quit blabbing now and put some pen to paper.
Very good point, jafidler.
josh,got your email and will work on it later - thank you!
puddles, cool, i had guesstimated about 23' - and my sketch would have the extension just one floor above that.
jafidler, good to know. also, i think views of the baseball and football fields would be nice so transparency there works from the inside out also.
i guess that means that lb will be doing all the drawing and brainstorming \m/
good observation, jafidler. look forward to seeing how you address something toward that side of the building.
from what i've heard from locals, the design proposal that vado posted above was made in the 80s (i described it in an earlier post as 'jetsonian').
it was not popular, and the community voted down the millage to get it built.
strangely, this was done by one of the partners from the firm that did the ewald branch, which is a little...um...different.
80's? weren't the 70's the revolving round restaurant decade?
that was 'jetsonian'?? wowsers!
(crumbling my sketch)
ok back to the drawing board! hehe
jafidler has a good point about the prominence of the library as seen from the east. take a closer at montage013 that i posted on page 3 where you can see the library at the end of the street (not really the end, it just bends there). this will be a very visible facade for everyone traveling along kercheval and also just for anybody milling about the small commercial district "up the hill".
This is VERY exciting guys. I've liked the ideas I've seen so far, and Josh, those shelves are pretty cool.
the other end of the library opposite the money shot pic that is so prominent will be featured in the design of the libertyretro proposal...
I think people should be aware of the Master Plan for the Grosse Pointe: www.grossepointemi.us/f/master_plan.pdf
p 35 mention of library
p46 community development
p 49 Shared Parking
P 50 Parking [important]
p.52 Avoid excessive parking
p 53 Architectural Style
p. 83 Parking decks
Talk the Talk and Walk the Walk!
Good share, snooker!
ok here we go...guys.....
don't laugh (it's a quick and dirty attempt).
lb its like we read that book already!!!
dammit sorry....lets try this again!
arrrgh....
gimme a sec.
ok 1 more time (if not Vado Im gonna have to ask you to post it for me - it's on my flickr site)
here we goooooooooo
Liberty, You will see my proposal when I get signed papers from the Board of Directors that they will include the Calder Mobile as part of fee for doing all this research. snicker...snicker....
i like the strategy but how many floors you got, squirrelly? looks like two, but it's higher than the existing building. are those double levels per window area?
also not sure they need THAT much additional space. if they're at 19,000sf (i think i read), then you're probably adding another 57,000sf. they're looking to total between 45,000 - 50,000sf.
we can probably expect that they can get access to land behind the building about the depth again of the current building. your rear leg looks to be beyond that point and therefore probably in property that the high school won't relinquish.
course all this would be easier if i layed the program on you all....but i didn't get it again today! arrgh!
Actually I was looking to see if their zoning regulations were on line.....but couldn't find anything.
snooker
http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?pid=10869&sid=22
for city of grosse pointe and but not specific to grosse pointe farms...
chapter 90 is zoning
could be steven....(the sq footage). As for the encroachment on the rear property line...well it's just a sketch, an idea. Just wanted to throw it out there. I guess we would need a dimensioned (sort of) site plan to the be able to really lay out a proper parti.
yes, we definitely need the survey. in the meantime, though, josh has provided a pretty good rendition of the site conditions in a drawing file on the ftp site. check it out.
and, yeah, the idea could be cool. maybe even develop the interior of the ring as a courtyard-ish thing. could be very nice.
somebody should explore minimizing the foot print by maximizing the allowable ht limit thus creating some open public space sort of anchoring the main street and also leaving the breuer building pretty much intact with some minor interior fixings. connection can be done below grade and i am assuming the location of 5 story tower after looking other more site informed drawings.
interesting idea Orhan...however....below grade connection? Wouldn't that be a bit expensive (from the standpoint of feasibility -cashflow wise)
will do steven...
and almost forgot, but are we gonna start a new thread for the posting of potential solutions...or is paul/archinect moderators taking care of that??
just wondering (so we dont' thumb through 4 pages).
super elegante.
s.e. for Orhan...
squirrilly, check the email string for the new thread issue. we discussed starting 2 new threads - but let's keep that discussion via email for now.
I'm looking for a ninja who will help me secure the Calder!
I believe this addition has to be minimalistic. The nature of it expessing itself invisible to the existing building and at the same time a powerful statement. It also needs to be respectful of the
neo-traditional aspects of Grosse Pointe. I don't think people are looking for a building to act as the epicenter of their community. Well at least not a modern building. When I read about people gushing about castle style homes in the 35,000 SF mode. I think it is best to let them carry on with their dreams of someday living there while we design a building which is functional and submissive to the existing library building in the same modern venue.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.