Hi there. I was furloughed for two weeks then the gov. loan came in and came back to work. I am afraid that in two months I will be cut so I've been working on my stuff meanwhile. Hoping for the best but definitely expecting the worst. Problem is, no one is hiring...

I, too, am fearful that more architecture layoffs are yet to come as the boom-time projects left over from pre-COVID times get finished off and the government money for paychecks runs out.

The lack of resources for the self-employed who fall on hard times has been a major flaw in the USA system for quite a while. The past 20+ years has seen a huge de-industrialization and the concurrent shifting of vast numbers of people to gig and independent contractor status. This was not accompanied by the creation of a reasonable unemployment and health insurance system for such persons.

Being self employed is hard with Insurance, loans, etc. feels like the cards are stacked against us.

Absolutely. And the way that the USA government and media tout freelancing and entrepreneurship as the way to mitigate jobs lost to offshoring and corporate consolidation is a crock of sh*t.

and, they emailed me this morning replying to my 4/3 contact with questions (since the phone lines were overloaded)...and it wasn't even a focused reply, just a "contact us back if you still have questions"...

Also in the #headshaking category, SBA contacted me today too (7wks later) to continue the EIDL loan process...i'm trying to figure if i should continue purely with the idea of only asking for the forgivable advance...maybe just best to leave dead horses be and move on

I think there's a good chance you will get the advance (we got 1k per employee) if you continue the process. The money just showed up without warning in our bank account one day. We have heard nothing else about our EIDL.The advance is, however, going the be deducted from any PPP loan forgiveness we may get. (according to the rules as of the time I'm writing this)

Eeep!

We are noticing this for international work as well. Clients want to have meetings all the time as everyone is working from home these days. And this trend will continue once the lockdown is over as well.

Yea, not great. Firm owners will accept whatever punishment presented if it means that can survive. For instance, after rehiring the firm back with PPP money, our principals are now sending out emails questioning our work ethic. Surely clients are putting the screws on them and thus, the poo water flows downhill. I almost regret coming back.

When firm owners do that it's time to look for a new firm.

Depressing to hear about that kind of poo water in the industry. People will justify it thinking it's temporary, but before you know it, you've been accepting it for years.

you really can say no. if someone's looking for an excuse to fire you they'll always find one anyway. most of the time it's just people under pressure hurrying things because the sense of control distracts them from a situation that's totally beyond their control. push back. argumentative people like to argue; nearly everyone else will listen to reason.

I've been pushing back on being available all the time. The first month of WFH was awful, because the line between work and home disappeared. I spent the past few weeks re-establishing that line, and learning to say no to meeting / call requests that fall outside work-time.

Donna that is exactly what our office is doing: compressing project schedules to invoice early and often. 6 week timelines for 100% DD are becoming 2 week timelines. Management (all of whom have absconded to their second/third homes in upstate NY) has "closed" requests for time off. Its clear they're double dipping with PPP money and client invoices, and give zero fucks about burning through their junior staff most of whom have spent the last three months stuck inside 1br Brooklyn closet apartments. Sigh, indeed...

Dangermouse, Very true indeed. This is exactly the situation at my firm.

Chad, the search continues...

three - well if you want to move to the western slope of Colorado we're looking for new people.

I can second that, my former instructor got the boot last week :(

Curious to see a thumbs up on this. Wondering if fulcrum is confirming the information, or simply likes when people get furloughed?

Both?

i just felt you needed a thumbs up to brighten your day

Thanks curtkram, thumbs up for everyone. 

In other news, glad to see fulcrum around again. I hope it's not because they suddenly have a lot of free time on their hands.

Thumbs up means "This is a good/helpful post" not "I like this". At least that's how I'm using it.

That's a useful way of doing it, and I probably won't ever see a thumbs up from you. :)

wow - really? that's too bad. we were neighbors to them for a while.

Maybe others are better at refocusing but I find that responding immediately do whatever comes in is a good way to do nothing but respond to things for an entire day.

If you're "always available" you've given up control over your own life. I don't think the tradeoff is worth it. Delivering on time and keeping your clients happy, in my experience, does a lot more for job security than answering your principal's every whim.

Agree with tduds. If you're managers can't understand that you have to prioritize things, they shouldn't be in management. I've been disconnecting from zoom and email recently in order to be able to focus on work that needs to get done. I've also seen people block out time on their calendars for production/focus time so it doesn't get filled up with unnecessary zoom calls.

I have few coworkers who will ignore emails and messaging apps so that they can concentrate on "work". Absolutely useless. New normal is being able to "work" and also meet other obligations. I need stuff from you so I can also do my own work as well. It takes literally 15 seconds to snooze an obligation if it's not a priority. "I'll get back to you tomorrow". That simple.

Again others might deal with it better, but jumping onto something else - even for 15 seconds - breaks my focus. Sometimes I can refocus immediately, sometimes it takes 15-20 minutes to remember my train of thought. Multiply that by the dozens of emails that come in everyday and there goes the day. 

I have times blocked out to check & respond to email. I do my best to ignore it otherwise. There's nothing that can't wait 3 hours.

haha how ridiculous. Literally anyone with a pulse and a computer can be "always available." But there's very few who can lead the design and documentation of complex projects while meeting budgetary, design, and technical objectives. Guess what, it takes focus time to do that work.

It's a two-way street. People get used to being able to interrupt colleagues and start thinking they can just demand whatever whenever. It's bad for the project. As a manager of humans, respect their time. As a human being managed, respect their requests. If you both do that, then the requests you get for information or work should be done ASAP, with the knowledge that it's necessary, not impulsive and thoughtless.

I have a feeling this crisis will shake out a number of people who can't keep up with basic project needs. Unresponsive coworker is literally the biggest obstacle right now. You have to learn to prioritize. If you are completely tuning out, you can't even do that.

Honestly I've noticed ed

That getting laid off or fired sometimes has zero relation to how valuable an employee was. I.E. great employee but no family or mortgage they can afford to be unemployed and they get the axe. Just keep trucking at a reasonable pace and live debt free if the time comes.

agreed- i've said this before, but going the extra mile right now and trying to prove your worth is ineffective. firms already have in mind who will be the first out, so do good work but no point in trying to go overboard

I disagree with Rusty!'s assessment of the "new normal," but perhaps it's only because we've misunderstood each other's points. I'm not talking about taking the entire day and tuning out. I'm talking about a few hours at a time. With people working from home ... while also parenting ... while also being teachers ... means that if you want to retain any type of talent that also happens to have children, you have to understand that they may not be able to respond immediately to emails or chats even if it is just to say, "I'll get back to you tomorrow." THAT is the "new normal," not some fantasy world where everyone is instantly able to manage anything that gets thrust in front of them or makes a sound on their computer. 

I've got coworkers that can barely manage to keep their kids from exploding their house (hyperbole) during normal business hours. They do most of their work after the kids have gone to bed. They are valuable members of a team and the team works within those constraints. When someone's kid makes an appearance on a zoom chat, we roll with it, not wonder how long before they get the axe. If a coworker needs me to respond in the next 15 minutes so they can continue their work, they haven't managed their work appropriately. They should be able to anticipate needing input from me and planned ahead ... within reason of course.

Honestly, if your firm hasn't addressed this type of thing, you need to bring it up with the firm. It's also not just people with kids. Maybe they're living in an abusive relationship and they have to manage that. Maybe the 24/7 living with their partner or roommates has caused some issues they have to deal with in the middle of the day.

That's indeed the new normal EA, at least from seeing how my girlfriend works remotely within a corporate setting these last two months.

randomised, my new normal, or Rusty!’s new normal?

++ EA. I file my emails in the morning, respond after lunch, and again between 4-5. 2 hour "time blocking" session on Monday mornings and 1 hour "Inbox clean" on Friday afternoon. Outside of that - unless I have meetings scheduled - I turn off push notices and try to focus.

I don't know about y'all but as a PM I sometimes get emails coming in every 10-20 minutes through the day. Even if I didn't respond, just taking the 5 seconds to acknowledge every message would ruin any chances of getting actual work done.

Yours EA, I hope!

tduds your level of organization sounds dreamy. I can’t seem to force myself to do that. I’m always responding to whatever is waving in my face at that exact moment. This, my most productive *drawing* time is 10pm to 2am, which is not healthy. I need to try your method.

tduds: " Even if I didn't respond, just taking the 5 seconds to acknowledge every message would ruin any chances of getting actual work done." I guess we have a very different ideas of what actual work means. But at this point I am very used to a PM sending an email at 6pm in response to an email sent at 9am. And yes, that email pretty much negated 20 other emails that were exchanged in that thread. Pretty useless to everyone else involved.

And I do agree with Everyday Architect, that people with toddlers are pretty much fucked. Besides not really being able to focus on work, they look like they are about to have a nervous breakdown. For the Xth time today.

If all I had to do was be a PM I could afford to respond to emails all day. But, alas, that's not how the job works.

Donna: I'm very much the same which is why I've yoked myself to the calendar. It's the only way I can maintain any sort of flow. You call it 'dreamy' I call it 'ADHD coping mechanism'

I'll fully disagree with the OP of this thread. I'm the boss, had 7 (including me), bringing some back, so back to 3.5 shortly (0.5 for free lancers).

I hate web calls, Zoom, Skype, it's a mind blowing waste of time. I can figure the same stuff out with an email far quicker and on my TIME. i.e. I can read your 5 page email in about 30 seconds versus listening to you think in a weird impersonal way outloud - via screen with an undershot of your double chin. I don't care how you think, get to the point.

By phone, I can literally wash some dishes, write an email and still have the mind numbing 30 minutes call of you repeating shit over and over. Obviously as the boss I can't not LISTEN to clients, so at least I provide the appearance. This is not to say I don't have good calls with intensely intelligent people, but Zoom is really a waste of time.

Pre Covid I had 150 meaningful emails a day I always responded to within an hour, 30+ texts a day usually from contractors, and about 20 calls a day. I also was already working from home occasionally, since I'm the boss my wife could go to work to gain some sanity (she was mainly working from home at the time). Having Adult conversations is important to sanity. At the start my staff could tell I was working from home because I would yell at them the same way I yell at my kids.

I do all this so that my staff can fucking focus. Lately I've been doing my own drafting, modeling, etc... and find myself terribly frustrated with myself if I spend more than 1 hour on anything. On any pre-Covid day I would probably deal with 30+ projects, ranging from reports to New Buildings, so even 5 minutes on something I'm wondering why is it taking so long...so now work 16 hour days from home, 8 hours of running a company and 8 hours of "production" or "design" (also called work if you're an architect).

So tduds would make a good employee for me. And like I said, Zoom is a waste of time, just like Youtube help videos - 1 hour of bullshit on the screen or like 5 minutes of reading....I fully disagree with this post.

This is top shelf satire Ancient Sheds! RickB needs to work on new material now.

set some agendas for those zoom meetings so you focus on what needs to be done and don't deviate into conversations about astrology (which i did yesterday. whatever). i'm not a fan of sharing my camera unless it's a social thing. i share my desktop instead of my no-haircut face so people can see the agenda or a drawing or a revit model (the reason we set up the call)

Yup. If one has too much self preservation to not respond to their principal's email or teams message in like 15-30 minutes, they seem like they are doing other things and not working. All of us have childcare responsibilities etc, but if you are clocking in 40 hours of work, better be available for those 40 hours. It doesn't pay to have too much of an attitude, especially these days.

I do hate Zoom... and RickB (the super archinect bot)

totally agree w ancient sheds on this. the advantage of written material is you can pace your speed to the importance of the message and credibility of the sender. whereas zoom meetings and videos take just as long for low-content fluff as substantial information. longer actually because incompetent or inexperienced people tend to be terrible at editing for brevity. (cf one infamous poster here!)

agree midlander. and it's funny my real life is read as satire and my satire read as offensive real life sometimes....it's the internet - c'est la vie son of e bitch...what can you do?!?!

and yes tduds is what I would be looking for in an employee, not a project manager, but someone who does the architecting at a high level.  project managing to me is just putting out fires and explaining stuff to people...see midlanders comments.

Wait, so that wasn't satire? uhhhh... So much to unpack here. Who the heck calls themselves "the boss"? Also, complaining about zoom? "I can read your 5 page email in about 30 seconds " Ah! That specific person that you learn never ever to ask more than one question in an email. You are getting your first question answered, but don't expect anything more.

I've adopted the strategy where I only read email 2-3 times a day. No phone calls unless scheduled. Don't need zoom for any reason. My toddler has in fact sent some work emails on my behalf. I think it gave me a few sympathy nods. He's also been screaming while I've been on the phone, and I had to just roll through it. Picked him up and soothed him, rocking back and forth while discussing something architect-y. I really enjoy working from home where there aren't endless distractions! UPS guy, lighting rep, someone dropping off plans, radios, phone conversations, banging keyboards, buzzing lights. Do away with that crap!

All the emails come at 3 am lately anyways. :/

Rusty!

1.0 boss - the person who signs the checks for work performed.

2.0 Zoom - sucks and annoying.

3.0 No I can really read 5 page email in 30 seconds. If you know the context of the conversation you can filter out the bullshit, find the pertinent and respond. If you send me a 5 page email, my response is usually 5 sentences and just as effective.

3.1 Good construction doc CYA language is brief and barely English, TBD, UON, etc..."as required", "verify in field", you get the idea. Remember our forefathers in this industry are pretty much the Army Corp. of Engineers...when I need good spec writing, that's where I start. EOD that's what matters.

tinnt - what do toddlers charge for drafting?  I need more affordable drafters in this time of crisis

so Rusty!, last sentence to tinnt, not serious.

Rusty! code writing here...

under 3.1 the following:

3.1.1 As a young architect I asked my boss how to note a stair detail.

        3.1.1.1 My boss, the guy who signs my checks and knows              more than me due to decades of experience.

        3.1.1.2 My boss was a Navy Sea Bee, a Ivy League grad,  
        and worked in Japan for a while.

         3.1.1.3 He told me something in what I thought was English.

                 3.1.1.3.1 I was like what?

                 3.1.1.3.2 He repeated.

                 3.1.1.3.3 I was like Al (our buddy Miles Jaffe knows     
                  him) what?

                 3.1.1.3.4 Just write what I'm saying.

                  3.1.1.3.5 I'm like - Not english

                  3.1.1.3.6 - Just do it, I'm the boss.

3.1.1.2 Boss architect language, brief, succinct, accurate. CYA

*Al drove Bucky Fuller around in his convertable at Princeton dragging a multi-facetted-iso-whatever-dome.  Pretty cool story for a 2nd generation Italian American kid from Brooklyn first to go to college (not satire, true)

I have no idea what I just read, but I'll drink to that. I like nonsense that entertains.

I'm always a fan of a good Bucky story.

Rusty! code can be confusing...

in the real world I just went through a hefty audit and an engineer who has been reviewing code for 30 years and I got into a debate and in no uncertain terms I said -

"you're an engineer! you read line by line, one track mind."

and "I'm an architect, I see the entire picture, the narrative, the history and code can't be read that way!".

....in short I'll probably lose, being creative is not supported by this building department ;)

True bucky story NS. I'm trying my best to remember Al's car but can't. He went to Carnegie-Mellon to get away from his mother as he said (strange Italian thing) and then Navy, Japan, and then Princeton and he had money from the Navy work I think and bought this convertible and Bucky was there and was like

- strap this to my car and then Al drove around in the parking lot.

Al pretty much fired me because I was a COCKY YOUNG ARCHITECT (KIDS NOW IS NOT THE TIME), but now that I'm the boss, totally get it man, totally. I would of fired me.

So the question is, zoom or not zoom?

I don't know. If you deliver damn good work after 2 hour hiatus on the interweb,  who cares right?

(I taught CAD, 3D, I know how long stuff takes and totally trust people)

People who have no idea don't trust and micromanage, but if they are your boss KIDS, guess you have to put up with that for a bit....?!?!?or not.

Rusty! But at this point I am very used to a PM sending an email at 6pm in response to an email sent at 9am. And yes, that email pretty much negated 20 other emails that were exchanged in that thread. -- isn't this just the essence of architecture work though, learning to judge what work can proceed without review and what needs to wait for input? if it critically depends on specific information to proceed that should be scheduled in, not just fit into the exigencies of daily routines. sometimes (mostly) work can't be 100% efficient; you're always waiting on information from colleagues or decisions from clients. remote work just exacerbates the inefficiencies we can overlook working in close proximity.

you midlander should be writing architect practice books - this -

isn't this just the essence of architecture work though, learning to
judge what work can proceed without review and what needs to wait for  input

I hate zoom as well. I don’t even like to face time with my family. It’s annoying. I don’t like phone calls either, because I can’t hear for shit. Text or email only. Or meet me in person. Covid is not going to transmit outdoors standing 10’ away, relax.

I can't hear on the phone either. It sounds like everybody talks with marbles in their mouths through several pieces of cloth while riding a horse in a car with the windows down and has some weird accent like Canadian. I wonder if I should get that checked out.

the Canuck accent thing is actually quite common....

Actual conversation. Contractor "Boy am I glad you answered your phone." Me "Sure" Contractor (something muffled) Me "What?" Contractor "The measurements..." Me "Wait, let me get a pen and paper." Contractor "17 foot 4 and a half for the north wall, 13'7 for the west wall...." Me "Wait, I don't have a paper" Contractor "11 feet for the south or maybe south west wall I don't know what it is" Me "You mean the west wall? The one that faces the outbuilding?" Contractor" And vertical dimensions are 17.25 inches and 84 inches and of course 3 inches inbetween ya know?" Me "Ok, I got a paper, seventeen four and half for the WEST wall, is that out to out?" Contractor "Thanks, let me know if you have any questions!" Me "Can you just email me a sketch with the measurements?" Contractor "What? No. I don't email. Call me anytime."

Why do all contractors love talking on the phone? I can’t stand it.

tinntt, so they had their mask on and were actually not glad you answered and tried to garble it through...wait they pretended to have a mask on, contractors aren't the mask wearing types.

Jla, no paper trail and no waiting with phone calls. The GC can make it even more apparent that something insignificant is on fire and requires immediate attention. Also, here’s 9 inferior product substitutions.

That one refuses to wear a mask.

tintt, then they really didn't want you to pick-up and garbled on purpose. sometimes they think they're smart, like will screenshot the call later in a text to you and the client and go - see I tried calling but tintt didn't pick-up...now they'll just say, reception was bad or just flat out lie...I just picked up one those Home Advisor letter type jobs, the client is a cop and uncle made the 4 year nightmare happen of a small addition, taking all money, and lucky for this guy he is a local cop and the local building dept. helped him out...anyway I told him - FIRST THREE LETTERS OF CONTRACTOR - CON... I mean dude, you're a cop, I get it, was family, but you're a cop.

That's one of my lines, first three letters...! I looked at the photos, remembered enough of the call, and managed to figure out what he was trying to say enough to draw some elevations that made the client rethink their whole approach and put the project on hold.  And that's how it's done.

Actual conversation with an engineer. Ring ring. A very faint "Fmp." I say "Hello, Bxxxx?" Engineer: barely discernable peep. Me: Some stuff about the project. Engineer, quieter than a piece of dandelion fluff "I can't hear you." Me: "I'm having trouble hearing you too." Engineer: more indistinct mumbling. Me: "Sounds good."

tintt...

tintt, actual conversation yesterday...Contractor-hey, you need to call client to talk about blah blah blah....Me-what? Contractor-blah blah....

tintt, actual conversation yesterday...Contractor-hey, you need to call client to talk about blah blah blah....Me-what? Contractor-blah blah....

Later I text after stop driving

Me-what was I calling her about? Sorry, I can’t hear very well on the phone...Contractor-well I can call but would be better if you did. Me, no, I meant that I couldn’t hear you when you explained what I needed to call about!

I’m a design-build contractor as well, and I never call anyone unless it’s to order a pizza of talk to my 96yo grandma.

you can keep believing in this myth, but at the end of the day the firm will do what's best for the firm

i'd rather the shark eat me. i welcome the sweet release of death. preferable to managing a broken sheet set under needlessly compressed deadlines

i must not fear. fear is the mind-killer. fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. i will face my fear. i will permit it to pass over me and through me. and when it has gone past i will turn the inner eye to see its path. where the fear has gone there will be nothing. only i will remain.

Zoom is like hell on earth for half deaf introverts with toddlers jumping in the background like myself. I’d rather quit my job than do that bs everyday.

Zoom and Teams meetings lag and freeze up a lot for me at home, because I live in a very rural area where the fastest internet speed available is 10 Mbps. There are no faster options available. A number of posts in this thread seem to assume that "can't do zoom correctly" is always a matter within the employees hands - i.e. solvable by improving one's IT skills, buying the right equipment, and/or being willing to invest in better/faster internet. The only things that I would be able to do about my situation are move (pretty drastic solution), or drive to a more favorable location whenever I need to be on a virtual meeting. The latter is what I typically do, though of course these days there have not been as many choices for where I can do this from (no coffee shops, libraries, etc. open), so this usually results in returning to my usual workplace in the city, which of course we're not supposed to be doing right now. 

There are still some fairly large areas of the US that are underserved with internet options - and even still areas where nothing is available but dial-up. Bringing faster internet to remote areas isn't profitable to the providers, so only happens with government subsidies and other sponsorships, which are spotty and state-dependent - not consistent throughout the US.  Perhaps the current crisis and resulting permanent changes to expectations about working and learning from home will result in internet being viewed as as much of a near-necessity as electricity and running water - but so far that is not the case everywhere.

In my firm there is only one person, out of 40+, who lives in an apartment, and 2 others who own condos within the city. We're not at all unusual for our location - we are pretty much the norm in this mostly-rural state. The firm is located in the largest city in the state, as are the majority of firms here, especially those with multiple employees. Renting within the city itself is expensive and competitive - most renters are college students, those on public assistance, and a smattering of single high-income urban professionals - there's very little middle ground. Nearly all of the staff own homes farther into the suburbs or rural areas, within a 20 to 60 minute commute. We do have good internet in the city - as I said, I sometimes have to return to the office for it even though we're not supposed to be doing that. Several of us do not have good internet at home, because it simply is not available in this part of the state (nor is cell service). We've been doing fine on most fronts working from home, but online meetings don't work great for some of us. I'm aware of options to increase internet speed where I am, and have implemented those to the best that they can work, but the options are quite limited once outside of the greater urban area.

could be worse. in my neighborhood we're getting 5g towers, which is how the government is spreading the 'rona

Rick, thanks for the ideas, but as I said above: I have already investigated the possibilities. Everything that is possible here has already been done - it's not that the firm is ignorant of solutions that exist - we have a capable IT department that has taken available technical solutions to their practical limits in this area. There is most definitely not a clear line of site from my office to my home - I live on the other side of a mountain range. The issue with Zoom and Teams meetings is that they are not generally scheduled by me, and we can't control the software that the OPMs, CMs, etc. use just because a few team members have issues.

To bring this back to the general, and not mine personally: wifi speed is just one more logistical factor, like childcare needs, job duties/role, etc. that make everybody's work at home success different. This thread has just seemed a little judgy about employees' abilities to control all factors on their end - that's all I was trying to get across.

As for living in the backworld: this is a big country and even the least populated states in it have hundreds of firms each. Forum posters often default to assuming they're talking to entry-level employees in urban locations, and forget every other demographic. This thread, for example, was started by a licensed professional with 35 years of experience, and yet you and others have repeatedly geared your comments toward "interns".

You're a clever lad nevertheless! :-) My bad! I didn't have my morning caffeine fix -

I too thought Rick had gotten the axe. I was about to give my sympathies then my brain kind of turned on and realized . . .

I'm glad you haven't fired yourself Rick.

If you did you could get unemployment I bet. Hostile workplace cuz of your boss and all . . 8-)

Sadly, I think you're right. We certainly have not seen any sizable work coming in or even being discussed at the moment...

This weighs heavily on my mind.

This is absolutely going to be the case. PPP was a few days late and few dollars short. I haven't read the bill closely though - are there provisions for rehiring/laying off people after the money is spent?

@3ODoor - not sure what your question is but there's no provision for having to keep people beyond the 8 week required period relative to having the loan forgiven. At least not in what we read in the terms. Otherwise, you can do whatever you like - it's really a question of then having to pay the loan back (which no one wants to do obviously).

All staff meeting on Friday afternoon... I'm only a little concerned, but concerned nonetheless.

I thinks cuts will happen in July also. The only things keeping people employed right now in my region is PPP money and a mad dash to get all work out the door ASAP so it can be invoiced. Both of these things will be gone around mid July.

yes, for many of the same reasons but also others. i've invested a lot of time on the professional development side, getting licensed etc, and patiently waited for a few years, finally landing some really exciting, more academic/research opportunities that were my last hope at having some interest in this field. unfortunately, the rona has sidelined these and pushed the clock back even more, if they will still happen at all. though things could be worse (i could get laid off, but honestly that could be a blessing in some ways...), it's frustrating to see the things you've put years of groundwork down for vanish instantly. now my days are occupied with basically work only, and while i'm thankful to be out of the office, i'm really missing all of the external things that made going to work worth it, and realizing how much those things also helped cope with anxiety related to work.

Very much so. Doesn't help that I struggle with anxiety even in normal times.

There are good days & bad days. On the larger scale, though, I'm just "on pause". Still employed, thankfully. And fortunate enough to be able to survive if I lose my job, thankfully. 

What's eating me is that 2019 was the year I really got my shit together. Got licensed, got married, bought a house, paid off (most of) my debt. We were making 5 year plans. This was year 2. We were designing renovations, planning international trips, thinking about having a kid. Now I have mild panic attacks when I try to think more than a week or two ahead. I feel like we're going to look back on this as the year that just wasn't. 

I don't know how anyone *isn't* struggling with mental health right now.

Same here. I keep telling myself that I'm lucky that I'm still busy/not getting a pay cut, etc. I live alone so that makes things a little tougher. Mental health is struggling (I suspect) because I'm still in the mourning phase of my old social life and daily routine. There's not one part of my "old" life that I don't miss and I realize how much I took dumb things for granted (ex. working out from home SUCKS). Even when things start to normalize, I don't see them going back to how they were pre-COVID. Which I still haven't accepted. Plus, I am so freaking tired of working from home. I am one of very few in my group of architect friends who does not prefer it.

I hear you molten. Although I am not in the "mourning phase" of my old social life, and am thankful to still be healthy when so many are getting sick, I am mourning the passing away of a parent, which happened in February. Working from home sucks ass, though, and combined with home schooling, not walking out to lunch etc makes it much worse, frankly.

The first lockdown is always the hardest. By third lockdown in December you guys will be just fine.

@OneLostArchitect - you are not the only one stuck in a bad place. I was in the first round of layoffs at the big G place last month and I haven't gotten my unemployment benefit checks yet. It's taking way too long. Also, I was planning to finish my ARE stuff this summer with only one exam remaining, and now all the Prometric testing centers are offering seating spots to 'essential' test takers only. So I can't even take it until September or so. I am getting frustrated with exam scheduling and financial stuff. But I gotta move on with my life though. I didn't enjoy working in that place anyways, but I do miss working in general. So I am sitting at my desk searching for jobs today like I've been doing for the past weeks.

Onelost. Rule out construction if you want work life balance. I went that route and while I'm still dissatisfied with the work life balance I'm satisfied in si many other aspects. The people are better, the work is dynamic, you have freedom and ownership on what you do, there are multiple career paths AND you get PAID. I dont care too much about money but it was just so frustrating to barely make it above the 70k range even with a license and have first my friends rocket last me in salary, then their younger siblings and then their significant others younger siblings while I stagnated at a low wage and everyone just assumed I was stingy and cheap. Because surely I had money, I worked way harder and longer hours than all of them. So initial advice, do research and do anything that just makes you happy. It's awesome to go to work and generally be happy. I never had that at the 5 diferent firms I worked at. Secondly, in this COVID time not sure how many of us can career switch since the old "entry" level positions requiring 5 years experience will probably come back. Been thinking myself and maybe you should try it, instead of grinding some low paid 1099 gig to stay relevant like I did in the last recession. If I get laid off, why not be something random and fun for a year or whatever. Like a captain, ski instructor, wild fire crew, deck hand on a commercial fishing boat. Just be outside, have something flexible and not grind at a computer for nothing.

I always feel lost and rather hopeless. I just distract myself with various outdoor activities and keep on going.

Your $60k highest ever with 15 years and license ,where are you? You should make double that....that tells me something...if not a lot. Mental Health. By all accounts I'm not healthy, but I find pushing the limits of existence, like if you fear heights step on the ledge and look down and ponder it, step back down, go into a deli, buy a burger and wonder the meaning of it all. If something makes you anxious, do it, like force feed yourself. After a while all this shit becomes meaningless stimulus that is supposed to get a reaction from you but it doesn't. It's just information that is supposed to have meaning attached to it. You are the one that attaches meaning to it, it's totally up to you. If you don't jump and purchase that burger, you might realize the guy making your burger makes less than you and probably has had less chances than you. Kind of makes those things that give architects anxiety (often just fucking paperwork) seem small. I'm not sure if there is a term for this, but when you get over that existential crisis filled with anxiety, doubt, depression, everything seems doable...hard to explain but you have to push the limit and then the question of balance seems irrelevant, because you've decided the way life is, is balanced...Changing careers is an existenial move in theory, but its best you make that move when it means nothing. i.e. whether you were an architect or a manager at McDonald, maybe it's best both are equally meaningless to your life....long day, hope that made sense. [disclaimer: don't stand on the ledge if you don't trust yourself, or at least figure you're scared enough biologically to not do it mentally).

ancient, it sounds like you're pretty into camus. i started reading the plague because i thought it was appropriate. then i read an article saying rats are overtaking the empty restaurants. anyway, i just came here to say i thought it was cute the eternal optimist rusty! thinks t here will be a december.

yes Rusty! is an eternal optimist, but they ain't as positive as me...The new normal will be, well that many people a day dieing is still ok, the economy will go on... "The Plague" was good, but I'm more into Camus' thinking pieces, which OneLost I recommend given your situation, but you should really only choose one of Camus' better thinking pieces based on the following: 1) If you think you would commit homicide in the extreme condition of mental anguish then read "The Rebel", 2) If you think you would commit suicide in the extreme condition of mental anguish then read "The Myth of Sisysphus" .

Thanks Shed for post. Means a lot. Ill check out ‘Myth of Sisysphus’ and see it helps.

Read that book when I was maybe 3-4 years into the profession (almost wrote depression) and just kept asking myself - why? why? damn near walked into a Marine recruiting office, glad I didn't. Have a firm now. As an architect you tend to overthink stuff, very cerebral, and Camus is good with dealing with the absurd modern human condition, which I think architecture as a profession falls into more than most careers.

"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

i'm also a big Camus fan (i'm glad to see he is having another moment), and have a little different take reading his work- that the struggle/existential doubt IS what makes meaning, and as such it's nothing to avoid, but rather embrace

Ancient Sheds wrote: "Your $60k highest ever with 15 years and license ,where are you? You should make double that....that tells me something..."

Depends where you are.  Major metro area on the east or west coasts - sure.  Most firms located elsewhere $120K and up is partner salary.  Take Colorado for example.  Even in Denver an architect with 15 years experience the salary range is $60-$70K

well that is depressing...that much knowledge and that's all you get!

not so bad if costs for housing, entertainment, food, etc. are scaled down at about the same rate.

Chad, that's crazy. I make 50% more in a city with a lower cost of living (albeit close) to Denver.

Folks, unless I'm misremebering, OLArchitect is in SW Ontario. That's 60k canadian. That's on the low-end for 15y Exp and licensed, but it's not terrible compared to the average. For example as per stats-canada, average income in theprovince in 50k/year. (2018data).

"Even in Denver an architect with 15 years experience the salary range is $60-$70K"

^ maybe for Boulder grads ha ha ha but not for the rest of us who can hustle

lol.. had a phone call and hit enter before I finished my thought. I've been six figures since about '95 in Denver. Part of that was owning a firm until 2015. But both employers after after had me over $100k.

Oh.. and I have to make a decision again. Don't like it here much (it's the corporate 'worker drone' attitude), but it pays well. I've been approached by a builder and the owner's rep to do design build. Commercial stuff like hotels, medical facilities, etc. working as either the architect of record or just on the ownership side managing the design. They are sort of ingrained into that medical tourism stuff building off-shore and/or specialty treatment facilities in the US. Lots of travel. Not sure I want that much since the guys I know spend all week flying around and are rarely home...

sounds fun to me. do you have children at home?

3 young adults still at home (18-22 age range). So that isn't an issue. The big owners rep kahuna is also sort of an arse. I think he's also playing dirty; just cc'd my boss an email that makes it look like I haven't done shit for a month on a project I'm working with him on... he's done this knowing its already a bit tense like he's trying to get my boss to lay into me again knowing I'm already at a snapping point and spread thin. So I'm not super excited knowing this guy would be my boss when he appears to be pushing the issues between me and my current firm to force something to happen.

mighty, why not be your own boss again?

mighty - I assume you're managing a firm and staff - that will push you much higher in pay. I know plenty of architects in the Denver area with 15 years experience who don't manage projects for staff and don't make six figures.

archanonymous wrote: "Chad, that's crazy. I make 50% more in a city with a lower cost of living (albeit close) to Denver."

Are you managing projects and staff?  If so that makes sense that you're in the $90K range.  Also just because an area has a higher cost of living doesn't mean you get paid more.   I live and work in western Colorado and my pay is above what Denver would pay for someone with my experience.  The cost of living here is way lower than Denver too.  

In my part of flyover USA, nobody other than firm owners makes over 100K. The only exceptions would be about two high level people working locally for federal government agencies and 2 or 3 senior technical people working in the tiny local offices of giant firms like AECOM.

Chad, that's not too surprising as I can't imagine many places paying worse than what I've heard about Denver, but everyone's experience varies, as mightyaa shows.

my work varies but usually i'm the PA, so yeah - managing consultants, client, staff, drawing set, no resources, too little time, too little sleep and usually it feels like too little money.

MightyAA, I'd turn that down then. Forcing yourself into a closer relationship with someone who already (and openly!) shows manipulative tendencies is bad. I left my last job to get away from someone like that (and a raise)... so much happier in every way.

I get paid pretty good here in Menver.

bummer dangermouse.

sorry to hear. what city / sector?

and region?

nyc office, mostly commercial and large scale residential work in the continental usa and europe. writing has been on the wall for months now, it was always a question of when, not if.

Not a lot of empathy, there, eh?

If code is saying that the boom time has ended when a person could do only a fair-to-middling job and be totally secure employment wise, code is not wrong.

commercial real estate (offices) has been severely impacted - would you take an elevator everyday now? maybe 5 times a day. I forsee adaptive re-use of unrented commercial spaces (client who does commercial real estate in NYC noted a 95% drop in work in the past few months).

If code is saying that the boom time has ended when a person could do only a fair-to-middling job and be totally secure employment wise, code is not wrong.

this is such an american attitude.. rugged individualism! only the "exceptional" deserve employment aka means for their survival! meanwhile, let's continue to exploit and squeeze everything we can out of those "exceptional" workers who should consider themselves lucky!!

this profession (in its current form) is not long for the world..

Good Luck - remember there are many pathways you can pursue Good you got your debt under control - take time and be kind to yourself.

relative to the PPP, if they expect to have it forgiven, there's a pretty strict protocol on how the money is to be spent, with 75% of it (minimum) having to go to payroll. there's a whole list of things it can't be used for. that said, if billings are only down 20% consider yourselves fortunate. for most firms, that number starts at 20% and is probably a lot closer to 40% by now.

I'm not sure about the exact percentage of reduced billings, but for the next 3 months we don't have enough contracted work to hit our 'break even' which pays salaries and overhead.

then you are most certainly at least 15-20% under your normal billings.

I was hired back when the firm got the PPP loan. Will be let go early July. There are no new projects and a LOT of architects are already unemployed and looking in NYC.

Yep, same for me in NYC. Was hired back, fully expect to get the boot again in July.

getting those vibes for sure....

Nam - our PPP is functioning in a similar way. We have not found nearly enough replacement work yet.

Jealous of Canada.

The pandemic life has definitely led to some harder thoughts about where we'd rather be long-term. Not sure we can make it happen before Wave 2...

Interesting to note, you can change the fucking channel to OANN if that's more your speed. Try doing that in one of your fucking fever dream example countries.

you take your meds today?

Says the person unable to distinguish reality from fantasy.

"I am now watching essentially state run Television" 

No you're not.

your knee jerk reaction is amusing to say the least. interesting to note what I actually said was "Interesting to note, they post data and facts versus Cable TV...." read carefully next time. I just made an argument for state run television or in other words noted that cable news is what we associate with NK and USSR state media run television.... stop social mediating, it may help you think more clearly.

The TV cut off right after the head of the LGA airport project noted how many dollars were up for grabs for local business and Minority and Women owned business. Let me know if you learn about this through your channels of information?

"From 2010 > 2016, I did not take a vacation." 

 That's a pretty shitty workplace you're involved with.

seriously. if your office isn't interested in allowing you to exercise your benefits, then it is an exploitative situation. time to move on. my boss encouraged me to take a vacation i had planned before this all went down.

That's terrible policy--for both employee and employer. If what you're saying is accurate, then you're sitting on hundreds of hours of PTO. Not sure about your situation, but most small offices are not interested in employees caring thousands of dollars in accrued vacation--which they would have to pay out if you quit or they laid you off. There's a reason the unions fought for vacation time--your mind and body need a break. Staying at work just to keep the seat warm sounds like a dreadful career choice.

code has previously disclosed their acceptance of exploitative and abusive work practices in attempts to justify it as normal in the industry. Once again ... this is not normal and should not be accepted.

We've been encouraged to continue using our PTO (not just taking time off, but taking *paid* time off). "You earned it, it's yours, take it" is the message from the top, which I really appreciate.

I've heard of firms bandying about the idea of forced PTO during Covid, which I think is pretty lame. No extra PTO, but you're forced to use it. 

We've been encouraged to use PTO as necessary for our emotional and mental health as well as just in general during this time. I forget the exact wording, but one of the last communications from the CEO to the office indicated that project teams will manage if you need to take time. We've even had larger meetings rescheduled to accommodate people's participation in planned protests and marches. We didn't even have that happen for the Global Climate Strike last year (the firm basically said you could take the time to participate, but it was largely business as usual).

We were briefly required to use pto. My intention is to make up for it later by leaving early most fridays . Our hours have been cut to 32, which I really like.

unfortunately the 1099 situation is common enough to almost be called normal (at least in nyc), but definitely not the norm. i had to do this at one very small firm i worked at, but left after a few months as soon as i was offered a job with actual benefits and better pay. having experienced the last recession, i knew the writing was on the wall- fast forward and i now have great job security, good benefits, and a great boss. part of our work has to be avoiding those types of offices that abuse the 1099 system; it's one thing to lean on now and again (especially if you can leverage the flexibility), but to suffer through it for years makes you complicit.

@shell, we were all req to take at least 40 hours of PTO (for those that had at least that) presumably for cash-flow/budgetary reasons. Planned liabilities vs payroll? Though better than furlough I suppose...