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Abuse in Professional Practice

OneLostArchitect

Well... I saw the ‘Abuse in Education’ post on the forum and saw some interesting stories. I am curious about abuse in professional practice. What have you endured mentally or in some instances physically? 

 
Jun 25, 19 10:09 pm

1 Featured Comment

All 8 Comments

curtkram

completed a project that would require a 4% fee, but within the constraints of a 1% fee. 

Jun 25, 19 10:47 pm  · 
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midlander

if you completed it then you just proved your client right...

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curtkram

solving problems before they become problems is cheaper than solving them when it's too late.

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midlander

owner got mad at jr staff for being unprepared to review before 6pm, said he's not going to stay late waiting for some idiot drafter who talks more than he draws. kicked the computer over, threw it into a trash bin, walked out of the office on time for his evening appointment.


a few minutes later as things settled the firm's jr partner called the desk phone and informed the jr staff he had been fired and should not return.

Jun 26, 19 1:07 am  · 
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SneakyPete

Sounds like the jr staff ended up better off.

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midlander

yes. he ended up returning to school and teaching. win-win

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GridBubbles

I guess he went into academia after being traumatized by the working profession?

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randomised

Didn't get the permanent contract.

Jun 26, 19 3:58 am  · 
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Non Sequitur

What’s the criteria to be considered abuse? The current crazy ramblings in the other thread are not of abuse but of a hack blogger’s desperate attempt to push their imaginary assumptions of modern day academia. 



Jun 26, 19 6:29 am  · 
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OneLostArchitect

Verbal abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, etc.

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tduds

Which is a bummer because it takes bandwidth away from conversations of *actual* abuse.

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x-jla

This is academia polluting the minds of the youth with all this over sensitive micro aggression bs. I love when dumb shit backfires.

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OneLostArchitect

JLA so are you saying that’s kids now I’m architecture school are snowflakes?

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x-jla

I’m saying that if you consider a kiss on the cheek sexual assault then every Italian becomes a predator. If asking “where are you from” is a form of racism, then every person awkwardly trying to engage in small talk becomes a racist, and if saying “dude that’s retarded” is considered a hate crime

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x-jla

Then everyone born before 1990 is a prolific hate speaker

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x-jla

Real abuse exists, but softening people to be hypersensitive to everything is not good for anyone, and just waters down and makes a mockery of real abuse. When I was a kid in the 80s teachers said “sticks and stones...” now they send you to counseling and put you in a safe space. FOH

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tduds

If strawmen were real, then we'd sure have a problem!

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tduds

All of those examples can be both harmless and harmful depending on the context. To ignore that is to be willfully dense.

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tduds

"Real abuse exists, but softening people to be hypersensitive to everything is not good for anyone, and just waters down and makes a mockery of real abuse" ...cultural norms are constantly in flux. What constitutes "real abuse" in any given decade or century could be wildly different things. It wasn't long ago that it wasn't considered "real abuse" if the women you beat was your wife. 

If you're going to insist on an arbitrary point at which to freeze culture, why the 80's? Why not the 50s? The 1840s? etc.

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x-jla

It’s in flux and also overlapping...so people have to deal with those of us raised in other generations or cultures until we die off. Then they can inherit the earth and offend an even softer generation...

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tduds

Or you could adapt, like a mature adult. *shrug*

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x-jla

Until the year 3000 when we will have all morphed into completely benign androgynous blobs grazing on fields of genetically modified soy.

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tduds

You'll be dead in like 30 years chill out.

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tduds

What's hilarious to me is that we all (rightly) called moirabroon our in the other thread for extrapolating individual, uncommon experiences to try to paint a false picture of an industry in crisis. And now you're doing the same thing to paint a false picture of her as representative of an entire generation.

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x-jla

I’ll live another 50 probably.

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Non Sequitur

Tduds, as much as I enjoy this digression off my original comment, Moira’s “thesis” was to equal her understanding of
academia with abuse.

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Non Sequitur

Call me skeptical but I’m of the opinion that evidence is important if that term gets used as a label so conveniently to, likely artificially, pump up their position.

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nabrU

I just think a fair day's work for a fair day's pay, calculated by your local central bank's inflation calculator is the minimal equitable situation for all parties. But maybe I'm just a crazy social democrat? What's the comparative rate for a Part 1/2/3 architect in salary in 2003 to 2019? And what does this mean for real terms salary and project fee income? (Excluding bonuses)

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x-jla

Exactly Rick! Who says society is evolving in a linear way where each generation is more morally righteous. I mean, watch Gran Torino for fucks sake.

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x-jla

Non, there are rules to this...abuse is 100% self determined, but only if it conforms with a leftist narrative, otherwise it’s called intolerance.

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x-jla

Tduds, this is all part of a larger trend...and the epicenter is academia.

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nabrU

jla-x surely "100% self determined" abuse is reliant on abusive employers not capitalising on being both commercial and academic practitioners? Otherwise the potential for abuse is increased which we hope is in neither parties interest for the future? Or is this the business model?

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Susz

So many fallacy arguments and we are only on the first page of the thread. Slippery slope argument, jla-x: "I’m saying that if you consider a kiss on the cheek sexual assault then every Italian becomes a predator." No. That's not how reality works. As tdud said, context matters. If that that professor/employer forces a student/employee against a wall and forcibly kisses them, then yea, that's sexual assault/harassment.

So much theatrics... it's not as hard to understand as you make it out to be.

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Susz

RickB-Astoria you're just as theatrical as jla-x. Social norms are not as hard as you make them out to be. We are social creatures, both literally and evolutionary speaking this is what we do. Calm down, it's more natural to adapt than you think. Stop being so resistant and start being more resilient. The world moves on, so what? Adapt, move on. 


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x-jla

You pointed out an obvious situation that would be considered assault. Thanks for proving my point. Real abuse is obvious, flipping out over Joe Biden hugs is dumb. Suing your firm because someone tells a dirty joke, dumb. You don’t get to subjectively move the needle of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Too bad. It evolves naturally or doesn’t, and in the mean time you just deal with the old timers and assholes without crying over it.

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Susz

Skimmed the second bit because it got preachy/generic. "You don’t get to subjectively move the needle of acceptable and unacceptable behavior." That is 100% the call of a victim of abuse. They get to make that call, whether or not it aligns with an outsider perspective of the situation. You should hold up that advice to a mirror: "[I] don’t get to subjectively move the needle of acceptable and unacceptable behavior[for other people]" If someone wants to report a creepy hug from Joe Biden, that's their call. It's not harming you physically/personally most likely, so just take a breather. Anyway. Said what I needed to say, now I'm just getting repetitive.

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x-jla

You are abusing me. Prove me wrong.

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x-jla

Johnathan Haight pointes out in his great book “The Coddling of the American Mind” that we (academia and life in general) used to use a reasonable person standard to determine what was offensive, now we use a most sensitive person standard. Can’t operate a society like this.

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x-jla

We have laws to prosecute abusive behaviors. We have lawsuits. There is recourse where we can hold true abusers accountable. Are the laws too leinient? What is it that you would like to change? How do you implement it?

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Susz

"You are abusing me. Prove me wrong." Why should I carry the burden making the argument/case for YOUR opinion? It's your opinion. You back it up.

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Susz

"Are the laws too lenient? What is it that you would like to change? How do you implement it?" Great productive question :) Just out of my undergraduate education I learned unpaid interns are not protected in many states against sexual harassment. Unpaid internships are a big enough issue in our profession and add that on top of it. At the time, there had been a female architecture student in New York whose case was dismissed not on the facts of the event but the fact that she was unpaid employee( and therefore not protected by the jurisdiction's human rights law. )*eye roll* These were the most recent articles I could find in a quick search ...thoughts? https://www.propublica.org/article/how-unpaid-interns-arent-protected-against-sexual-harassment  

  https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html

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randomised

All he did was try to fit in: https://youtu.be/5YnGhW4UEhc

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randomised

Nolite te Bastardes Carborundorum, Rick!

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Rick, let me make sure I'm following along ... 

  • jla-x accuses susz of abusing him and says that susz should prove him wrong. 
  • susz says the burden of proof lies with the accuser not the defendant. 
  • You swoop in to mansplain to "Susie" about how the burden of proof lies with the accuser, not the defendant. 

Bravo Rick

smh

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x-jla

EA, she implied that “abuse” was a subjective thing. I feel abused by the tone, therefore susz is an abuser. Susz then goes on to victim bash me. I’m sooo offended. I’m just playing by the obviously ridiculous rules of Susz...mansplaining means explaining by a man Rick! Men cannot explain things to women anymore, get with the program! Adapt to what they deem correct! We all know that in a gender fluid society we can temporarily turn into a female and explain things and then turn back into a male after...this way it’s considered explaining...these liberal rules are so fun to play with...

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x-jla

For shits and giggles Trump should self identify as a female when he wins in 2020 so that he can be first female President!!! Troll hard or go home buddy!

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Susz was not victim bashing you, all they did was ask you to explain your opinion, but you have the right to be offended by that I suppose. 

Troll hard or go home buddy! 

Glad you're finally admitting your modus operandi out loud.

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Susz

Where did I “imply abuse was a subjective thing”? Use direct quotes. I’ll wait. Also waiting on you to back up your own opinion too(not an unreasonable request). Victim bashing? Nah. You’re just unused to someone holding you accountable for your own opinions. Don’t expect further replies from me unless you can back up your accusations. Bye Felicia.

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x-jla

“That is 100% the call of a victim of abuse. They get to make that call, whether or not it aligns with an outsider perspective of the situation.” That’s what you wrote...did I misunderstand it?

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Susz

I was quoting you. *drops mic*

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x-jla

Nah, you are mistaken...

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Susz

Nope.

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Non Sequitur

Look at you and your fancy pants with your 34% phone battery remaining. What, you think you're better than us?

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x-jla

I don’t know what you are talking about. Where tf did I say that? Are you mental?

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tduds

tl;dr

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randomised

You said the stuff from the screenshot in this same subthread jla-x...

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I think Susz in misconstruing jla-x's slippery slope argument as sincere rather than trolling.

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Susz

Lamo. some days I cruise at 18%.

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Susz

Oh I know he is a Troll, lol, but I had 34% more battery left so I had time. Now at 10%...

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x-jla

EA, you call it trolling, I call it teasing out truth...

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x-jla

I’m always at like 4% battery getting quick hits of charge here and there like a crack head.

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Actually, you called it trolling... 

Troll hard or go home buddy!

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I'm at 88% #notsohumblebrag

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Non Sequitur

pfff, 100% atm (because phone is plugged into workstation and I'm offloading 3 site visit's worth of pics)

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You must think you're pretty special to have the empty storage space on your phone to handle 3 site visit's worth of pics. You must not have a wife that takes your phone to take more videos of your kid because her phone is full. #totallynotspeakingfromexperience

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Non Sequitur

My wife has her own phone which I need to empty (and backup) often. #firstworldproblems

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That must be where I go wrong. I expect her to backup and empty her phone often. It usually only happens after she first fills up her phone, then fills up my phone, then deletes a few items from her phone to make space for a couple of pics/videos, then does the same to my phone, and finally follows my suggestion to backup her phone. #thisdescriptionhasbeeneditedforcontentandtofitinthetimealotted #youonlythinki'mjoking

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Susz

I made my first legitimate mistake at a place I had worked for a year at that point. It was on a new project where I had absentee management at best in terms of instructing me on how to do something completely new to me. I had done well at the office up until then, but honestly I was still new to being a professional, so didn't initiate feedback in the way I do now. Sometimes being new to things, you don't know what you don't know. Thus I didn't know I had missed a step in the project, as it certainly had never been mentioned by him. It would have taken about a weekend to fix but was certainly fixable. The boss found that mistake, came into the room I was working in with a model I was working on and literally threw that model($$) into the wall. I was STILL trying to figure out what was going on when he told me what was wrong and he didn't want me in his sight, so I had to go home for the rest of the week. On my way out I was leaving he vindictively said "I could make you work here for free and suffer to make up for this shit but I'm not going to." Gee thanks pal. Frankly I would have gladly stayed the weekend to repair the damage, but that was never an option. Instead, I used those days to apply for another job and was out of that job about a month or two later...making more money and in a much healthier work environment. I had written an apology email while I was on that break to which that boss did come around to see that more instruction should have taken place....and he appreciated the email.  However, I lost all respect for him and I was done. Don't put up with shitty bosses.

Jun 26, 19 10:27 pm  · 
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randomised

Exactly, don’t put up with shitty bosses!

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archi_dude

I’d actually say there is some mental abuse in architecture. In construction you get, “how did you fuck this up!?” Give explanation, followed by laughing “alright alright let’s figure out to fix this.” This plays out repeatedly with all trades. The real assholes don’t get to bid next time. In architecture it was “how did you fuck this up!? How are you so stupid? Interns are worthless, your work is worthless, it’s a privilege you are here. Seriously you are an idiot, that’s why you are a CAD monkey.” Even in the nicer firms the designers still have that attitude. 



Jun 27, 19 12:23 pm  · 
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randomised

Never experienced anything like that in any of the gazillion architecture offices I’ve seen from the inside or heard from any of my co-workers. Maybe it’s a cultural American class thing or related to the fact we don’t need to sell our kidney or have huge student loans to study in the Netherlands but nobody feels they’re better than anyone just because they’re an architect and also nobody would just put up with that shit...I’d punch the motherfucker (m/f) in the face (kidding wouldn’t hurt a fly obviously am way too chill for that)

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randomised

Sorry for the shitty punctuation.

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tduds

Might vary from firm to firm or even city to city, but I've also never experienced anything even remotely like that. ...and it's definitely not because I've never fucked something up.

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code

like I keep saying: it's like the Marines " WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION NUMBNUTS"

Jun 27, 19 1:36 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

no, it is nothing like the marines.

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Steeplechase

What is your malfunction? You seem proud to be in shitty offices being treated like crap.

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code

after exactly 10 years, I graduated from "boot camp" Huuu Rahh - now work in an office - years of struggle over - dues paid with heavy interest - lessons learned

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code

as long as they don't hire some hotshoe with a lot of heel

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Xenakis, based on your usual comments ... you're still in boot camp, still struggling, and passing this off as something normal. We're here to tell you, this is not normal.

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code

What do you recommend?

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I'd recommend you stop pretending like it is normal or "like the Marines." Until you can manage that, I don't think there is much else I can say that would help.

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Steeplechase

Stop being proud of being treated like shit. Stop considering working overtime and weekends to be normal.

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code

"Stop considering working overtime and weekends to be normal"

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code

Then my job will be outsourced to South America, China, Russia or Mexico - ca't have a lapsed work ethic in a global economy - many at Tesla put in 100 hour weeks, Elon Musk sleeps on the floor

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Then I think you should go work for Elon.

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chigurh

just wait till the AI drafting robots go live

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code

BIM BOTS

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Steeplechase

Having actually worked a 100 hour week, there is nothing good or healthy about it. All you’re saying is that you don’t actually provide a worthwhile service.

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code

for me anyways, architecture is a 0 sum game

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Featured Comment

Once again, we are here telling you that it doesn't need to be.

  • working 100 hour weeks is not normal in architecture
  • sleeping on the floor is not normal in architecture
  • feeling threatened that your job will be outsourced to another country is not normal in architecture.
  • thinking architecture is a zero sum game is not normal.
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x-jla

The true question is whether or not architecture environments are conducive to produce quality architecture.  I’d say that creative environments should not operate like military environments.  Creative environments should not make people feel afraid, bored, undervalued, unheard, or underwhelmed.  We shouldn’t be talking about this in terms of abuse or kindness, ultimately it’s about productivity.  



Jun 27, 19 11:39 pm  · 
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x-jla

It’s also terrible business to invest years training someone, treat them like crap, so that they leave and go work somewhere else after they begin to create a productive return on the investment.

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randomised

Saying it’s all about productivity comes off a bit harsh, but I basically agree with both comments.

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Probably a debate in there about whether an architecture office environment should be set up for creativity, productivity, and if it is possible to do both ... and also what counts as a measure for quality architecture.

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x-jla

Creativity and productivity are the same imo. Find novel solutions and implement them effectively. “Quality” is subjective, but I think each firm should have a standard or mission that they strive for. Without that, it’s pretty hard to get staff to find meaning in the work. If you are building a house for a family in need, every nail you whack had a purpose larger than the task at hand. Firms that just exist without any larger than self ethos are kinda poorly managed imo. It doesn’t have to be some hippy dippy shit either, but the firms place in society needs to be defined and honest.

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