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COVID-19 Lay-off Thread

2745
atelier nobody

I'd also contact a labor attorney if I were you - you may have grounds to sue them.

Aug 24, 20 11:06 am  · 
 · 
code

That would be a career ending move

Aug 24, 20 2:00 pm  · 
 · 
awaiting_deletion

COVID has led to a convenient construction boom in our area, the 'burbs.  Look into single family if you are looking for work.

Aug 24, 20 10:09 pm  · 
 · 
Alectia

I really feel sorry for people who have lost their jobs due to the virus. I was more fortunate, I was allowed to work from home.

Aug 26, 20 12:41 am  · 
 · 
Fancy1118

Well my firm restored the pay cut! So I guess things are improving for some firms? 

Aug 28, 20 9:36 pm  · 
 · 
awaiting_deletion

did you know lumber prices are up 15% due to demand versus production?

did you know you can't get a builder to bid on anything in the 'burbs because so many people are building?

get the hell out of the cities and find some suburban work kids.  the money only shifted, didn't stop.  interest rates are real low.  there is work out there.


Aug 28, 20 10:48 pm  · 
1  · 
liberty bell

I’m trying to get a garage built and this is absolutely true. Builders are VERY BUSY.

1  · 
awaiting_deletion

If you can draft contact a builder. Many states let the home owner like Liberty here be on the permit only, no architect (unless structural). Drum up the work, get in at the floor level. Home Advisor as a "Drafting" option, Bark.com also good. I'll also note, in the past not all home owners would pick-up on leads, but now, they are all HOME! they pick-up, you can basically schedule at your convenience. Get out there!

 · 
wurdan freo

lumber went up 15% in the first week in April. its up 250% since the shut down started.

1  · 

A lumber mill in Canada either stopped production or stopped shipping to the US about 3 months ago. Sorry that I can't recall which it was but my understanding is that is what's causing the supply shortage.

 · 
awaiting_deletion

I'm in the Northeast, we can control things better than you northern mountain folk...


 · 

From your OP it sure doesn't sound like it . . .

 · 
awaiting_deletion

we made the 250% look like 15%, it's called media and politics...just sayin'

did you know in Russia anyone who dies of Covid is claimed to have died of pre-existing conditions? (zee Russian clients tell me this)

in the US, we finance if it's Covid, yes hospitals get more money.. See that comes from us in Northeast, you're just out there living like a farmer monkey (Iowa, Colorado, etc...), we tell you the facts. Don't question me CHAD! (zee 'merican clients tell me this)

...totally kidding, kids get out there, plenty of work, the MEDIA is not reality. (I'm having a Marshall McLuhan moment, my bad)

 · 

I think you have an undiagnosed or at least untreated mental illness. Why else would you be on here over the weekend giving such 'inventive' comments? I'm stuck at the office setting up my new desk. What's your excuse?

1  · 
awaiting_deletion

I'm working, pretty much every day. I comment. Go back to work, comment, go back to work. You sure you're ok? Chad, how did you fail in life to be setting up up in office your new desk on a weekend? I'm the boss, how do you suck so bad at life (I'm kidding, I don't really care)...anyway any links on the 250% vs 15%, that's interesting at least.

 · 
wurdan freo

or just go to home depot... 4x8 sheet of osb... $30... could get this for $10-13 pre-covid

2  · 
awaiting_deletion

you da man!

 · 

Stay on your meds DWG.

 · 
joseffischer

I've been having to get up to speed on mtl stud and gypsum sheathing for my side hustles... for the first time ever it's cheaper that way, but I'm not happy throwing mtl stud together at all.

 · 
crazydude

I hope that we are not “indirectly” asked by our employer to be vaccinated against Covid 19...I can imagine that in certain professions, where you have to deal with many people in small space, it might even be required to be vaccinated against Covid 19. I can also imagine that you need a vaccination for certain countries if you want to go there traveling...this already exists for some diseases like yellow fever if you want to go to South America for instance…

Aug 30, 20 7:07 am  · 
 ·  1
awaiting_deletion

don't work for a firm that drug tests and don't work for a firm that asks you to vaccinate. I could only see this happening if the client requested it.

 · 
randomised

Why you don’t want to be vaccinated against this or any other disease, why is this different than other diseases for which science came up with life saving vaccines? I wouldn’t want to work with antivaxxers...

3  · 
Non Sequitur

I hope that offices don’t force people to work with anti-vaxers. That would be so hard to work with such an uneducated peer group.

4  · 
Bench

Its not clear to me why we are fine with public health authorities mandating vaccination for children to attend school, but for some reason to mandate the same for covid in the workplace suddenly this is unacceptable.

1  · 
x-jla

Non, if you have the vax, then anti vaxers are or no danger to you.

 ·  4
x-jla

I’m not an anti vaxer at all, but definitely don’t trust a vaccine that was rushed into production and development for a disease that we hardly understand. “Uneducated” people can do the research themselves, but poorly developed vaccines can and have been dangerous, and the comparable risk of covid for my healthy kids is slim to none.

1  ·  3
b3tadine[sutures]

again with this pablum; "anti vaxers are or no danger to you"

 · 
Non Sequitur

Anti vax cunts are a threat to everyone.

1  · 
x-jla

If the vaccine works, then you are safe. Only other non-vaccinated people would be affected.

 ·  1
archi_dude

X-jla, I had the same misgivings but apparently the red tape that is being cut is the studies being rushed ahead to first in line before other diseases. They arent cutting out tests and run times and samplings. From what was explained to me it's the same duration of tests just the tests are first priority over everything else. Many vaccines and treatments wait in year long lines or take years to get a sampling population to sign up and be approved.

 · 
randomised

x-jla, it isn't per se rushed in the scientific way, they've simply allocated massive amounts of resources and manpower(f/m/x) to make it all go faster where it can go faster...but if non-vaccinated people clog the entire healthcare system because of COVID that could've been prevented because a working vaccine, anybody else with other conditions might be affected too...no respirators available perhaps the easiest imaginable, or the annual check up for breast cancer pushed back just a couple of weeks, turning that stage I lump in a stage IV clusterfuck etc. If the system is overworked and stretched too thin because of COVID, it affects all other healthcare aspects as well!

2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Sometimes, just sometimes, we agree. This point we agree, but I hate writing down the obvious for people.

2  · 
Non Sequitur

but folks, people like jla and his ilk have several phd degrees in youtube research. Certainly we can't just dismiss their expertise that quickly can we?

narrator: we can

1  · 
curtkram

the virus needs a host to grow and spread. more people that can get the virus means more people will get it, which means the virus continues to grow, adapt, mutate, etc. if everyone is vaccinated the virus will find it harder to grow and spread, so it would be able to adapt and mutate as easy.

1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

curt, now you're just talking in sanity terms.

 · 
x-jla

“I’m not an anti vaxer at all, but definitely don’t trust a vaccine that was rushed into production and development for a disease that we hardly understand.“ -jlax

 ·  1
x-jla

Didn’t say I’m anti vaccine. Just had concerns that it is being rushed. If what random and archi-dude say is true regarding development, that’s good. I was under the impression that this was being done at an unprecedented speed of development...As for mandatory vaccination, nah...fuck that. Vaccines shouldn’t/won’t ever be mandatory in the US. For school, yeah that do that, But mandatory to attend is way different than mandatory in general.

 · 
curtkram

it will probably be mandatory to enter costco as well. i assume they will either issue an identification card along with the vaccine to prove you got it, or microchip us.

 · 
Non Sequitur

Mandatory for everyone. Fuck your individual philosophy. You would not say the same with polio vaccine.

1  · 
x-jla

Good luck with that holding up in court, and if it does, then people like myself will not get it out of protest. Government forcing anything into my body, regardless of the science, is not happening. No other vaccine is mandatory, including tb which is far deadlier and kills 1.5 million people a year.

 ·  1
Non Sequitur

Shit philosophy.

 ·  1
shellarchitect

most (maybe all, i don't really know) hospitals require flu shots every year for all employees

 · 
SneakyPete

when people choose not to get vaccinated due to some personal philosophy or bad information they're saying through their actions that they don't care about people who have allergies to the vaccine or have immune systems which cannot handle it and think their deaths are acceptable. Fuck those people.

1  · 
x-jla

When I was a kid, I was at a doctors appointment. In another exam room a younger kid had an allergic reaction to a vaccine and died. Vaccines are mostly safe, but nothing is 100%. Having the disposition that questioning the development of a vaccine, the safety, and the effectiveness is bad, like non did above is more or a “philosophy”. I’m going to do my research, and if the odds say vaccine is better than covid, which they probably will, and the testing isn’t suspect, I’ll get it.

 ·  1
x-jla

I believe nothing coming from the govt or fake news these days, and with the race between nations to compete for a vaccine, politics and greed can possibly cause big pharmaceutical companies to rush development, or cut corners.

 ·  1
Non Sequitur

You severely overestimate your ability to do impartial research and you base your entire shitty philosophy on a statistically insignificant anecdotal experience from decades ago. This is just garbage anti vax nonsense. No question.

1  · 
x-jla

“This is just garbage anti vax nonsense”. I am not anti-vax, I repeat, I am not anti-vax.

 · 
Non Sequitur

You are by association regardless of how much you claim not to be.

 · 
x-jla

That’s the most ignorant statement I’ve heard all week. Doctor: excessive Alcohol Use causes liver damage. Non: you support prohibition by association!

 · 
SneakyPete

You support anti-vaxxers' "freedom" to contribute to the continuing death of people like the boy you trot out. Yes, he died due to an allergy, but had he survived in a world where anti-vaxxers' "freedoms" were entertained he would have died of the disease the vaccination protects him from through herd immunity, which cannot happen when anti-vaxxers get their "freedom". So as usual you're talking so loudly out of both sides of your mouth that everything you say is gibberish.

1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

There isn't just a problem between the races, it's a problem with kkkops killing Black people.


Trump is rushing the vaccine, not science, it's political, not medicine.

 · 
Non Sequitur

Jla, you must have set yourself on ignore if my comment is the most “ignorant one” you’ve read. Try and catch up.

 · 
x-jla

SP, Yes, I support anti vaxxers freedom to not have the government force something into their bodies. Why is this suddenly controversial? It’s pretty basic, and the precedent it would set is more dangerous.

 ·  2
SneakyPete

Is tyranny acceptable from a grassroots group of morons?

 · 
SneakyPete

How about the idea that you don't have to vaccinate, but we as a society don't have to give you access to benefits that you would endanger like schooling, public transit, etc?

 · 
SneakyPete

You support freedom only under the crop of laws that support your predisposed world view. You dance around singing about freedom until it's inconvenient. You trot out law and order until it's inconvenient. You contort yourself into positions a circus performer would envy in order to pretend you're stalwart and unchangingly principled. You're a flim-flam artist with words to sell. You waste your time on an architecture website shouting into a void making no difference. You are worthless.

1  · 
x-jla

That’s what they do with public schools anyway, so I’d say it’s probably what they will do for covid. Something like 50% of Americans say that they won’t vaccinate, so it’s probably going to be difficult to enforce though.

 · 
x-jla

Sorry, it’s 35% according to polls.

 · 
x-jla

All mandatory things require a police backing by nature. Do the police then arrest people for not complying? Probably will disproportionately affect dem led areas and minorities since most red states would refuse to enforce it.

 · 
SneakyPete

Do you only not murder people because the police exist?

 · 
Non Sequitur

New m’erican solution when the vaccine gets out: get the corona shot, get a free gun. Problem solved, everyone will line up.

 · 
SneakyPete

You could run a wikipedia article back and forth through google translate for an hour. Luckily we have Balkins so we don't have to waste the time.

 · 
x-jla

Non, gun sales are up so high the gun stores are almost completely empty, so that may work.

1  · 
SneakyPete

The right-wingers solution to violence: more violence.

 · 
x-jla

“Do you only not murder people because the police exist?” No, but without police it’s safe to say crime would go up, as it has recently in cities around the nation. mandatory without consequences is same as saying voluntary. Why then create the likely backlash by calling it mandatory if it’s not going to be enforced. You will get more compliance without creating the mandatory mask effect where something so simple and easy to do becomes a political statement

 · 
x-jla

Maybe an incentive, like a break on insurance? That’s a more effective strategy maybe.

1  · 
SneakyPete

The police still exist, yet crime has gone up, and this somehow supports your position that police are the conduit through which compliance with laws is made effective. Debating you is fucking exhausting. Can we get someone up in this motherfucker to enfore consistent statements from jla-x? They are certainly not going to do it on their own.

 · 
SneakyPete

Balkins, your regurgitations of news articles you have read are unwelcome. What is your point? We shouldn't bother? It doesn't matter? Or is your point, as usual, to try and sound smart? To try and sound like you know stuff? Knowing factoids is meaningless unless you do something with them. What is your POINT?

 · 
tduds

This took some weird turns but I wanna pull the thread back to here: "If the vaccine works, then you are safe. Only other non-vaccinated people would be affected." 

The assumption that people can't be acting out of empathy is, uh, telling.

 · 
x-jla

SP, crime is surging in the wake of anti-police sentiment. That’s a fact. Police are standing down amid the chaos, and people are taking advantage of the situation and causing more crime. Normal people will obey law without police, many will break laws if we remove police and they have opportunity, some will break the laws regardless. Without police, crime will go up. It’s tiring to argue with YOU because you are completely ignoring the reality of what’s happening, and you know it. Dem run cities where cops are standing down are being destroyed, burnt, people are being assaulted, killed, etc.

 · 
SneakyPete

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm choosing not to engage with your carefully curated rhetorical bait because the root causes of these issues is something that is unwelcome, and without it your half of the conversation are filled with pointless, race-baiting diatribes that serve no functional purpose.

 · 
Non Sequitur

Balkins enters the chat. rip my inbox.

2  · 
square.

Dem run cities where cops are standing down are being destroyed, burnt, people are being assaulted, killed, etc.

-Donald Tr.. er jxlax

https://www.vox.com/2020/8/3/2...

 · 
x-jla

“The right-wingers solution to violence: more violence.“. You dim wit. Self defense is not violence. Without police who do you think will protect people? Peolle will obviously need firearms right? Or do you suppose once the police are gone everyone will become nice and peaceful for the first time ever?

 · 
x-jla

This mf links a vox article. It’s like half the country is living in an alternative reality. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-murders-up-50-for-month-of-july-nypd-stats-show/2548281/%3famp

 · 
x-jla

“Fiery but mostly peaceful protests” -cnn. Talk about newspeak and you all fall for it. It’s unreal. I’m out.

 · 
SneakyPete

Nobody NEEDS firearms. Before they were invented people existed.

1  · 
tduds

More than half.

 · 
square.

"republican city"

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/08/10/triple-shooting-marks-the-latest-violent-crime-to-hit-jacksonville-parks/

see i can selectively choose new stories to back up my argument too!

 · 
SneakyPete

I often wish "Republican" could be shortened to something and used as an insult, then I realize that the use of the grammatically incorrect slur "Democrat" instead of "Democratic" just shows how short on substance the morons who use it are.

2  · 
square.

yes. unfortunately xlax just isn't that bright.

2  ·  1
x-jla

“SneakyPete
Nobody NEEDS firearms. Before they were invented people existed.“. Yeah you are too dumb to waste my time on.

 ·  1
x-jla

Congrats. You now hold title for dumbest thing I’ve heard all week.

 ·  2
x-jla

Square, Dems run cities into the ground. We know this from many many examples. No need to cherry-pick

 · 
SneakyPete

I already suspected you don't listen to yourself. Thanks for confirming it.

 · 
square.

who's we? literally no one agreeing with you here. it's the echo-chamber as usual.

 ·  1
Non Sequitur

pro-murder toy / anti vaxx!

 vote for JLA! 

 good slogan.

1  · 
x-jla

Pro rioting and violence, anti self defense! Spread eagle like a good American! Vote non

 ·  1
square.

^ dumb and unoriginal.

 · 
Non Sequitur

Still better than libertarian.

1  · 
SneakyPete

Libertarian is code for cowardly Republicans.

1  ·  1
x-jla

Haha. I don’t understand how tf you support looting and violence, defunding police, and giving up guns without understanding that someone is getting fucked in the ass?

 · 
x-jla

Did you all grow up in Mayberry and just don’t understand that crime is real and not just in the movies?

 ·  1
x-jla

Leftist is code word for cowardly commie

 · 
SneakyPete

I don't call myself a leftist. You call yourself a libertarian. I don't apply a label to myself in order to try and avoid the consequences of the views I hold. That's your bag, baby.

1  · 
square.

unlike you i still live in nyc, and have lived in cities for my entire adult life, which means i am the one living in reality and you are stuck in the past. this talk of decline is cities is incredibly overblown; take it from someone who actually lives in one and doesn't speculate from a basement in the burbs.

 · 
Non Sequitur

Jia’s jive is a great advertisement for why firearms should not be made available to just any wanker with a pulse. Should really be ashamed of sporting big such poor POV.

1  · 
x-jla

Square, it’s in decline. Where u at in NY?

 · 
square.

brooklyn. yes there is "relative" economic decline, but this is natural- all cities and regions go through periods of growth and contraction, or crisis/recession. and actually my neighborhood is livelier than every because everyone is here all day with wfh. however it is no where near the 70s, and it won't be. my sense is the people who are leaving are the ones who probably were never here for the long run. i even know of some acquaintances who are moving here now.

 · 
square.

manhattan is a different story, but who cares. that version of manhattan needed to die; i won't be missing cheesecake factory anytime soon.

 · 
x-jla

Read this piece. It’s by a comedy club owner in nyc. https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/08/17/nyc-is-dead-forever-heres-why-james-altucher/amp/ The problem is, what I pointed out about a year ago with the AOC amazon thing. The city is dependent upon the tax payer class. The top 1% pays like 43% of city taxes and 50% of states taxes. If they leave, who picks up the tab?

 · 
SneakyPete

If the rich paid their share everywhere they'd have nowhere to go to launder their cash.

1  · 
x-jla

The tax billionaires thing sounds nice, until the survival of the city ends up in their lap, then they control everything, and in today’s world can leave with no problem. This isn’t 1920 where we companies are geographically dependent.

 · 
x-jla

SP, they pay more than their share.

 · 
tduds

Good counterpoint to that Altucher piece. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/24/opinion/jerry-seinfeld-new-york-coronavirus.html

"You ever wonder why Silicon Valley even exists? I have always wondered, why do these people all live and work in that location? They have all this insane technology; why don’t they all just spread out wherever they want to be and connect with their devices? Because it doesn’t work, that’s why."

 · 
square.

i understand jla and have read more about this issue than you, most likely. sure- nyc is dependent on the super rich because post 1970s the economy was designed that way. but the argument "don't tax the super rich because new york is dependent on the super rich and they will leave" is a tautology. the city has existed in many different economic forms before (see the laguardia era, not to mention other contemporary cities that don't have this problem) and it will change once again, with growing pains for sure. i for one welcome it.

3  · 
ZynoT's comment has been hidden
ZynoT

The more you can see that it is important to be prepared for crises. we cannot just assume that everything will continue as before and it cannot harm us. You would have had enough time to protect yourself against a crisis. But you didn't want to see it or just didn't take it seriously. In my opinion, when things are going well, you have to think of bad days and prepare for them. Even if it takes some time for those bad days to come. In the end, you benefit from it. With insurance you do it as a private person, but with companies you feel too safe.

Aug 31, 20 7:57 am  · 
 · 
bowling_ball

Anybody's who's worked for more than a decade knows that these things are cyclical in approximately 10-year cycles. In that regard, COVID is not any different than any other crisis, except in the technicalities of how we've all had to adapt. 98% of things will go back to normal once the dust settles, only for the next crisis to hit in about a decade. We've been doing this forever and ever and always adjusted, because what other option is there?

 · 
x-jla

bowling_ball, I’m more worried rn with the civil unrest. Businesses and residents are going to flee the cities like Portland, the out of town protesters will leave, and we are going to have an era like the 70s where blight and crime soar. The recovery is likely going to be spotty. I don’t see nyc recovering at the same rate as say El Paso.

 ·  1
SneakyPete

Cool crystal ball.

 · 
randomised

b_ball those other crises are perhaps cyclical and more or less predictable because economic in nature, pandemics follow a different rule book it seems...even when the consequences for most are economic in nature too, I guess...

 · 
tduds

As a Portlander, I highly doubt that's going to happen. What you see on TV and what we see in real life are quite different.

1  · 
x-jla

I don’t know about Portland, but people are leaving nyc, and the state is nervous that the tax payer class will bail and the city will go bankrupt. Rents are way down. Businesses are going under. The good majority of People on the left should be condemning the violence and rhetoric but they are just pretending that it’s not happening. Imagine if the roles were reversed and right winger were burning down cities and assaulting people.

 ·  1
tduds

Lot to unpack there... *cracks knuckles*

2  · 
SneakyPete

The moment the Democrats start talking about the violence the way you want them to is the moment you will spring your disingenuous trap and pretend you're brilliant in a gotcha!-moment. You're more transparent than James O'Keefe and Jacob Wohl. Get better at trolling.

 · 
x-jla

Lol. They will lose in nov if they don’t start talking about it. Guaranteed. And I’m not pretending I’m brilliant. Every normal person I know says the same. It’s only the members of the woke cult that don’t see the reality of what’s going on, and then they will blame misogyny of some dumb shit in nov when they lose. The Dems are afraid to stand up to the loud minority running around harassing people, looting, rioting, assaulting, etc.

 · 
tduds

"normal" doin a lot of work there.

2  · 
tduds

"Rents are way down. Businesses are going under."

First, I'd argue that the people driving up rents are not the people actively contributing to the culture & vibrancy of cities like NYC (and Portland). They are consumers of the city more than citizens of it. If they leave and rents drop, NYC could emerge *better* than it became in the 2010s. (At least culturally). The last few times I visited New York, it felt like more of a playground for the leisure class than a real city. Yes, the short- to medium-term is going to be painful for NY and many other cities. In the long run, though, I highly doubt the march of urbanism taht has been steadily progressing for literally all of human history is going to be reversed by a one or two year pandemic. I think, if anything, we'll be surprised at how quickly the recovery does happen.

"The good majority of People on the left should be condemning the violence and rhetoric but they are just pretending that it’s not happening."

This is a weird one - I'd argue that people on the left *shouldn't* be condemning the violence (and in fact we aren't) because we understand it as the last resort of a people who have been denied every other avenue of protest, with a small bit of opportunistic "anarchy" dusted on top. But more importantly, no one is pretending it's not happening - that's absurd. People *are* saying that 1) the opportunistic bullshit pales in comparison to the justified outrage that fuels most of the (overwhelmingly peaceful) protests, 2) the violence is what gets attention so its what the media highlights, and 3) if you're more upset about some collateral propety damage than you are about the very non-collateral murder of black & brown citizens, you're part of the problem.

"Imagine if the roles were reversed and right winger were burning down cities and assaulting people."

Finally, the roles *have* been reversed. As we saw in Kenosha and Portland last week. There's no need to imagine it becuase we're seeing it. And it's way worse. More people were injured & killed in two days of right wing counter-protest than in nearly 90 days of anti-fascist / BLM protest. Further, it's not an equal comparison. On one side, you have an angry group protesting *against* the abusive behavior of those in power. On the other side, you have an angry group *defending* and in some cases *exhibiting* that abusive behavior. Punching down is not the same as punching up.

1  · 
tduds

"The Dems are afraid to stand up to the loud minority running around harassing people, looting, rioting, assaulting, etc." 

On this we agree, though I think we'd disagree about who the 'loud minority' is ;)

 · 
tduds

Here's a good thread on Portland from someone else who actually lives here: https://twitter.com/BritishPodcast/status/1300105289522270213

 · 
tduds

Anyway, to bring this back to the topic of the thread: I still have a job & now I have to go do it for a few hours. Ciao.

 · 
x-jla

This is a weird one - I'd argue that “people on the left *shouldn't* be condemning the violence (and in fact we aren't) because we understand it as the last resort of a people who have been denied every other avenue of protest, with a small bit of opportunistic "anarchy" dusted on top”. Wow. So violence is justified because??? I’m confused. Please tell.

 · 
tduds

Revolt - often violent - against those in power is almost always how social progress has been achieved. As a fellow 2nd amendment supporter, I would think you'd at least grasp that concept.

1  · 
x-jla

Is violence only justified if left wingers say it is? Like is this stuff part of some objective truth that I wasn’t told? Because, I thought that the objective truth that we all adhere to is that violence is wrong unless it’s in self defense. Yeah, this is what happens when you don’t take my warnings about identity politics seriously. Saw this coming years ago. Festering away in academia

 · 
x-jla

Tduds, the revolt is not one based on reality. The rhetoric behind this “revolt” is misguided, misinformed, and downright exaggerated. It’s nothing but a media induced psychosis.

 · 
tduds

Your obsession with silo'ing everything into a left / right dichotomy is extremely counter-productive.

3  · 
SneakyPete

Especially when jla's straw stuffies aren't even close to correct.

1  · 
x-jla

Furthermore, it’s dangerous. People are being killed. A cop was shot in the head. That’s justified? How? Maybe tell the poor guys mom that. Yeah, we hit the tipping point where good people are accepting bad things in allegiance to their tribe. This goes for the right and left. The right is accepting authoritarian police violence, treatment of immigrants, etc. the left is accepting violence against police, business owner, civilians...we are heading towards pockets of civil war if this continues, unfortunately.

 · 
sameolddoctor

COVID is not part of the "usual" 10 year cycle. This has happened once in a 100 years, spread by a secretive government (china), and then abetted by an absolutely inept administration (ours). Hence the impact, both long- and short- term of this crisis will be much more intense.

 · 
x-jla

Tduds, reality is that the country is being split into a left right dichotomy. You are assisting in that with your rhetoric in support of violence. I do not like the dichotomy, but it certainly exists, and the media is hellbent on making sure it continues for whatever reason...

 · 
SneakyPete

A cop was shot in the head? Three protestors were shot by a kid with a hard-on for guns and authoritarian control. Dozens (at least) of minorities have been shot by adults who ignored their job descriptions and shot first. Priorities, we all have them, and yours inevitably suck.

1  · 
SneakyPete

tduds isn't supporting violence. tduds tried to explain it to you, but instead of listening and acknowledging it you are lying about what tduds did. You are a liar. You are willfully ignorant. You are not worth arguing with yet here we are again. Can we skip to the part where you say something reprehensible and get slapped down by the moderators and leave for a couple of weeks? I like that part of the cycle.

2  · 
tduds

Since apparently it *doesn't* go without saying - Attempting to accurately describe what I see is not an endorsement of what I see.

1  · 
x-jla

Tduds, your facts are off. The Portland victim was part of a right wing group shot by a left wing protester. I’m not sure all the details, but that part is clear. The Kenosha guy was illegally there, being that he is 17, but none the less, acted in self defense most likely. I’ve seen the videos. The msm intentionally edited out so much of the vids to push a narrative, but he was attacked. Shouldn’t have been there in the first place, but will almost certainly be cleared of murder charge.

 ·  2
tduds

And, yeah, it's not that a cop getting shot is *justified*, it's that yelling about a cop who was shot in the head while remaining silent about everything else that's going on around it is dishonest and, well, unjustified.

3  · 
x-jla

SP, yes several cops have been shot.

 · 
SneakyPete

Facts.


1  · 
tduds

"The right is accepting authoritarian police violence, treatment of immigrants, etc. the left is accepting violence against police, business owner, civilians" 

The left isn't, though. Is my entire point. There is not an equivalence here.

2  · 
sameolddoctor

The 17 year old traveled a couple of hours from his home, with an Illegal weapon to HUNT protesters, and you say he was shooting in self defense x-jla? You are a twisted, evil individual, and not just ignorant, if you are actually endorsing such behavior. People like you readily defend such individuals, mostly cuz you see youself in them. Horrible.

3  · 
square.

hey xlax, here's a fact for you- no one enjoys your presence here. e.g. definition of insanity.

 · 
tduds

I'm trying as hard as I can to stay in good faith & not stoop to personal slights here, but the mud slinging appears to be creeping in regardless. I'll see myself out... 

Not sure why I even try anymore.

1  · 
tduds

Seriously, though, if you actually care to have a window into what's happening in Oregon (..a window that isn't carefully curated by cable news..) please read and digest this thread: https://twitter.com/BritishPodcast/status/1300105289522270213

1  · 
x-jla

Tduds! No. You don’t get it! No one remained silent after Floyd. The public reacted, opportunistic groups took advantage to cause chaos and push their own power agenda. Likely, the media and political class benefited somehow,
. The cops were unanimously condemned and will face trial. The riots started before the trial even happened. I understand the Rodney King Anger, this is not the same. The former is anger at an individual cops action-likely murder in the first or second degree, the latter was a systemic miscarriage of justice.

 · 
x-jla

Problems with the system can be solved, individual evil cannot be solved, which explains why the protests are all emotional and lack any logical plans for change. The demands are ridiculous, because individual evil or individual racism cannot be solved or 100% vetted from the police force.

 · 
x-jla

Protests without demands amd a realistic plan for change are nothing but perpetual temper tantrums.

 · 
square.

this country was founded through violent revolt. some even refer to it as a "revolution."

 · 
x-jla

sameoldoctor, maybe listen to a lawyers interpretation of events Rather than emotion. I said that he shouldn’t have been there, but that doesn’t negate his right to self defense claim.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NSU9ZvnudFE

 · 
sameolddoctor

Im good, thanks,

"The following content has been identified by the YouTube community as inappropriate or offensive to some audiences."

Viewer discretion is advised

 · 
x-jla

It doesn’t say that.

 · 
x-jla

And you’re just showing how comfortably ignorant you are. Watch the video, you may understand the nuance of the scenario better so you don’t burn down your local deli when he’s acquitted
.

 · 
x-jla

He can be charged with illegal possession of a fire arm. He cannot be charged with murder, because he was attacked and one attacker had a gun. The first guy that was shot. A 36yo convicted pedophile was trying to grab his gun and provoke him in a threatening way. There is more video footage not being shown on msm. It’s all there if you watch this lawyers breakdown. Lawyer on vid Colin Noir FYI

 · 
x-jla

“Sign in to confirm your age
This video may be inappropriate for some users.“. That’s what is says SOD.

 · 
x-jla

“this country was founded through violent revolt. some even refer to it as a "revolution." Square, that revolution had a goal and a point. What’s the point of this “revolution” other than being bored from covid unemployment and pretending to be overthrowing the govt?

 · 
tduds

Black Lives Matter. it's right there in the name.

1  · 
tduds

..the fuck, rick?

4  · 
tduds

I haven't seen a "racism ended when Obama was elected" take in years. Thanks for the nostalgia, ricky boy.

3  · 
tduds

No, I haven't committed any crimes. Jesus christ...

 · 
x-jla

tduds, BLM is not a demand or a plan, it’s an organization. Again, what’s the desired outcome of the protests specifically?

 · 
x-jla

Forget about the riots. Just the peaceful protests?

 · 
square.

i believe rick's comments could be categorized as "inciting violence." just strange.

i never suggested starting a revolution or violence. i merely am pointing to the irony that people like jxlax condone violence when they support the cause, but oppose it when they don't.

 · 
tduds

This has more than exhausted its usefulness. Later kiddos.

2  · 
x-jla

The BLM agenda is vague and lacks any real doable demands. It’s intentionally vague I believe to incite and ongoing conflict. I’m 100% on board with doing things to curtail police brutality. I’m 100% on board that we need to uplift black communities and stop racism. These are not things that you achieve through protests and riots. Real tangible laws like Jim Crow absolutely can be changed with the swipe of a pen, and therefore protest and even riots are effective. No one can change the mind of individual officers, racist or just dumb. That’s beyond the scope of political change. The riots are now defeating the message that most people agreed with post Floyd. That was an opportunity to come together and do something productive, instead destructive forces prevailed. I’ve never understood creatives, like yourselves, supporting destruction. I and you all know that the creative process is the real force of betterment, not complaining and burning shit. That’s for morons.

 · 
x-jla

Rick, don’t support violence. We are all Americans. We are all brothers and sisters. No one is committing treason. That’s hyperbole is not helpful

 · 
tduds

Damnit why can't I just walk away... 

 The "swipe of the pen" that ended Jim Crow was reluctantly motivated by *years* of protest, some peaceful, some not. If the people with the power to curtail police brutality were motivated enough to do it without being made uncomfortable, it would have already happened. It hasn't, so people in power need to be pushed.

1  · 
tduds

"The riots are now defeating the message that most people agreed with post Floyd." 

For someone who so frequently harps on "mainstream media" feeding us a narrative that doesn't comport with reality, you're weirdly blind to this one.

1  · 
x-jla

Yes, that’s what I said. I agree. What I’m saying is that the demands now are not things that can be solved by the swipe of a pen. End police brutality! How? What can possibly be done to ensure that some bad cops will not exist? It makes no sense. I saw a stat that showed police in nyc had about 500k encounters with criminals, and fires gun 43 times last year....out of millions of cops and encounters with different dynamics how tf do you prevent 100% of unjustified shootings? Not only how, but who solves this?

 · 
x-jla

Tduds, what you may not know about me is that I was beaten by police when I was 18 while cuffed. I have a fractured vertebrae and broken nose to prove it. I was charged, and later charges were dropped. The cops were sent to fuck me up by a grown man who was an abusive bf of someone I knew, who I had confronted sec

 · 
x-jla

Several times. I understand that cops are sometimes bad. What I don’t understand is why we hold them to a higher standard than we hold young black men in Chicago...imo, that’s the most racist thing. It’s a racism of high expectations for some, and low for others.

 · 
x-jla

And by saying that blacks have no other options, like you did above is kinda racist. Not saying you’re racist, just saying you should think it over.

 · 
x-jla

Idk what people are protesting, if the us government starts “killing” like you said Rick I’ll be right there with the protesters. Nothing justifies military violence against citizens. Nothing

2  · 
x-jla

*I don’t care what people are protesting...

 · 
SneakyPete

"What I don’t understand is why we hold them to a higher standard than we hold young black men in Chicago."

"We" don't.

 · 
SneakyPete

"Most bad cops starts off as good cops and how they become bad cops is complicated."

You'll need to show how you arrived here, as you cannot start by assuming this and then pretend your argument has a solid foundation.

 · 
SneakyPete

What you think is all well and good until you use it as a basis for an argument that suggests a factual premise.

 · 
x-jla

i think something like 1% of people are psychopaths. 1%. Once in a while one will get into the police force regardless of vetting. There are doctors who abuse patients under anesthesia. There are architects who abuse women. It’s impossible to make any system 100% perfect. We need to do best we can, and then handle bad cops on case by case basis. I don’t see what the protests are hoping to accomplish beyond that. I just don’t understand the end goal.

 · 
SneakyPete

A case by case basis: good enough for the cops, but not for an entire race, for THEM we have "policies" and mandatory minimum sentences.

 · 
SneakyPete

Ok, great. So does that give you any pause about making sweeping statements based on a belief that, by your own writing, isn't going to be provable to exist?

 · 
SneakyPete

Our current policing can be described as throwing good money after bad. This is the goal of defunding the police, to have appropriate funding for appropriate uses of the police.

1  · 
x-jla

“A case by case basis: good enough for the cops, but not for an entire race, for THEM we have "policies" and mandatory minimum sentences”. Those laws are for everyone, obviously not just THEM. No law is specifically for a particular race circa 2020. Laws are unevenly enforced and More harshly enforced in black communities probably. Again, that’s not something so easily solved through policy. Maybe there should be some law that makes a mandatory sentence not to exceed the mean average of more affluent cities or something. Idk. But that’s not a policy that can be struck down. It’s something that needs creativity.

 · 
x-jla

Create ideas and solutions. Most Americans would be on board. Most Americans want peace and equality of treatment and opportunity. I do.

 · 
x-jla

Just don’t understand how burning down some poor guys furniture shop accomplishes anything. It just creates more division.

 · 
SneakyPete

You're a living, breathing exercise in cognitive dissonance.

 · 
SneakyPete

Rick, if it's asking too much for you to base your sweeping assumptive statements on something that can be proven, you might want to reevaluate your premise. That's my point.

 · 
tduds

So, uh, how about those COVID-19 layoffs?

1  · 
Non Sequitur

Oh my... so what's everybody drinking this evening?

Aug 31, 20 10:41 pm  · 
1  · 
curtkram

i had an apothic cab with lasagna for dinner

 · 
Non Sequitur

Nice nice... garlic bread also present? I just cracked open a local craft 6% IPA as a post climbing gym thirst quencher.

 · 
tintt

white russian

1  · 
gibbost

'another caucasian, gary.'

2  · 
curtkram

did not have garlic bread. i'm trying to get rid of carbs (lasagna was not a step in the right direction)

1  · 
tduds

I've been on a real pilsner / lager kick lately. Tonight's sampling was a Helles Lager by Crux, followed by the tried & true workhorse Trumer Pils, then a nice Von Ebert Pilsner to wind down after dinner.

 · 
Non Sequitur

tduds, that's one thing, and perhaps the only thing, you guys have done right down there... our booze laws put so many hurdles that cross-province distribution is almost impossible. I've got plans to crack this bad boy tonight.

Yes, you read that correctly... a 18% imperial stout.  I'm on vacation afterall. Also, why u no use untappd app anymore?

3  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

That's more my speed. One bottle is all you need for the evening.

1  · 
randomised

Now I get it, you’re all just a bunch of alcoholics ;-)

1  · 
SneakyPete

Now I get it, I can be a dick as long as I use the proper emoji. You wanker. ;-)

2  · 
atelier nobody

Same as every night, Pinky...diet orange soda.

1  · 
Non Sequitur

^ I appreciate the reference... so thumbs up for that but, should be thumbs down for the non-beer beverage.

 · 
tduds

Non - I've ventured north a handful of times and every time I've been baffled by the whole process of beer acquisition (outside of a pub). Oregon is a wonderland of free-flowing booze, in comparison.

1  · 
Bench

I guess it was the Canadians who were the true puritans the whole time! *gasp*

 · 
atelier nobody

Sorry, NS, I'm a teetotaler. At least my friends always have a designated driver.

 · 

I'm not much of a beer drinker. Being a T1D I limit myself to whiskey and diet coke - doesn't mess with my blood sugars.

1  · 

Last night I had a mint julep. Tonight I will as well.

3  · 
randomised

Cheers Sneaky! Still in denial I see “ ;-) ”

 · 
SneakyPete

I was JUST KIDDING. DID YOU NOT SEE THE EMOJI!?!?!?!?!?!?!

1  · 
tduds

Keepin' it classy Donna.

1  · 
Non Sequitur

Quality internetting

 · 
bowling_ball

I'm a day late (last night was weed) but today has consisted of lunch beers (strong Canadian IPAs) followed by afternoon beers (10% double IPAs) on the way home. Maybe more tonight. I need to get some exercise in at some point....

1  · 
Non Sequitur

10% double IPA are my jam. Can’t get enough of them juicy doubles.

1  · 
randomised

How’s the hangover Sneaky, or the bender still going?

 · 
tduds

Last night's tasting included Buoy Pale Ale and Pelican Hazy IPA. We've got about 20 different beers in our fridge and almost all of them are in-state. Gotta love Oregon.

 · 
SneakyPete

I've been limiting myself to one alcoholic beverage a day for a couple weeks.

 · 

Define the volume of 'one alcoholic beverage'.

1  · 
tduds

If I drink whiskey straight from the bottle does it count as "one"?

1  · 
SneakyPete

One beer, one lower-than-halfway-up-the-side-of-the-glass glass of wine, one cocktail with less than 3 oz of total liquid not including water with bubbles, etc .

 · 
tduds

I specifically keep a big stock of lower alcohol beers because I know I'm going to drink more than one. I save the >6%ers for weekends.

1  · 
SneakyPete

I wish the medical community would figure out the health effects of alcohol already. It's been 3, 2, and 1 per day at various times and I'm tired of worrying. I like how beer tastes. If they made a decent N/A version I would drink it. But they don't, and the session beers are still one serving of alcohol per can / bottle.

 · 
tduds

Eh, unless they come out with some new study that demonstrates some wildly severe health risk, I'm just going to enjoy my life. Nothing is without risk. It's all about balancing risk and joy. I'd rather have 80 happy years than 100 miserable ones.

 · 
SneakyPete

That's a good point, and if I were walking as much as I did before WFH, I'd be on board. But with the extra calories and the waffling on other health detriments, I'm seeing what this limiting does for my health (feeling-wise, not empirical).

 · 
tduds

I just spent a lot of money on a nice bike so I can drink more beer without guilt. So, we all have our ways of coping.

That said a few times a year I go sober for a week or two. Mostly to prove to myself that I still can. 

1  · 
SneakyPete

Living in a dense area with lots of people who gather without masks makes me very reticent to go out daily for heavy breathing exercises, and I like not using the car more than once or twice a week, makes me feel like a responsible human. Shit's complicated. We also would need to take our bikes down from the wall, into the elevators, etc etc. Excuses are really easy.

1  · 
Non Sequitur

I try to drink a new beer every day. It’s a great hobby.

3  · 

SP, I'd be up for a thread on NA beers, or NA options in general. I wish there were more options out there, but I think it's one of those things that takes demand before the supply will come.

1  · 
SneakyPete

I'll see what I can find, I honestly haven't looked in a few years.

 · 
bowling_ball

Obvious update: going for a run with 5 very strong beers in my stomach was not my best idea. Going running tonight before beers this time.

2  · 
SneakyPete

*hork*

1  · 
atelier nobody

A burrito before a workout can also be a problem.

1  · 
SneakyPete

*el hork*

 · 
bowling_ball

Follow up to my update: it started raining and I went straight to the beer. Whatchagonnado?

1  · 
curtkram

laberinto sauvignon blanc with stir fry

 · 
tintt

Margarita

1  · 
randomised

There were posts purged here when they were not about COVID related layoffs, now everybody is talking about their alcohol intake, funny how that goes...

 ·  1
Non Sequitur

Because booze is an awesome subject.

1  · 
randomised

But off-topic...not all pigs are equal, I get it.

 · 
Non Sequitur

it's on topic because it's a good topic. Also, pigs are delicious, so that's a good thing

 ·  1
randomised

I remember this thread was scrubbed clean meticulously, even posts that were somehow COVID lay-off adjacent got deleted...I just don’t get the double standard. Actually stopped eating meat myself some years ago.

1  · 
square.

liking the no-meat-eating part.

2  · 
randomised

Me too, can highly recommend it

 · 
tduds

We try to keep >50% of our meals meat-free, and even when I do cook with meat it's usually a small portion. Also, been trying to buy meat from local butchers / farmer's markets instead of the grocery store. It's so much better, and worth the extra cost if you're only eating a pound or so of meat per week.

1  · 
Non Sequitur

Can say I’ve reduced meat in our dinners by about 50% over the last year or so. We now do the weekly dinner boxes so I’ll pick a veg or fish dish when available. I ain’t getting rid of my grill tho.

 · 

+1 on reducing meat intake. 

SP, there was a twitter thread I saw a year or so ago where someone who recently gave up alcohol was asking for everyone's favorite NA beer (I'll see if I can find it). I couldn't find a lot in my area, but there were some on there that I was able to try out. Kaliber by Guiness, Clausthaler, I think Heineken Zero was relatively new at the time in the states (their ads are all over F1 races now). 

A non-beer option that I find delightful is Lagunitas Hop Water. Much sweeter than I was expecting, but not sugary. Zero calories, zero alcohol. We were at a bar for an engagement party for one of my wife's friends and we saw it. Wife tried it, and we bought the place out when we left at the end of the night (it was only 6-7 bottles). I'd take that over a soda any day.

1  · 
SneakyPete

They also make good weed water.

 · 
tduds

I love the Lagunitas hop soda. Blanking on the name right now (I'll go fish the can out of the recycling in a bit) but I had a delicious hopped green tea soda today with lunch.

It's also pretty common lately in the PNW to see non-alcoholic Kombucha on tap at bars. It's a great way to participate in the social aspect of pubs (well, once they open up again...) without needing to participate in the alcohol part.

 · 

I just went to the Lagunitas website to look up the hop water to see if I can get it anywhere closer to me, and it looks like they changed the name to "Hoppy Refresher"

 · 
Newbie2020

Any news on firms hiring or firing in Denver? Any word on projects moving forward or put on hold? 

Sep 1, 20 3:24 pm  · 
 · 

I can't comment on Denver however things seem to be blowing up here on the Western Slope. Granted these aren't ground breaking, innovative design - just normal architecture. We're still busy and need more experienced people.

 · 
archanonymous

I want to move to Grand Junction and work part time and grow grapes part time.

 · 

If you could afford to grow grapes here in the Grand Valley then you'd already be wealthy.

1  · 
archanonymous

i've been away from 'rado so long that I have no sense of what the viticulture scene is like up there now that it has developed more. Is it all rich people's vanity projects?

 · 

That or it's well established farmers who own large amount of property and water rights. There are a few smaller farmers out there but it's still expensive to buy in.

 · 
sherrij.cody

Hi all,

New to Archinect. Feels great to be a part of such an awesome community!

So, we didn't exactly face a lay off in the current situation, but a lot of our projects were paused, which hit us really hard financially. At some point we did think that we were going to be fired, but it didn't reach to that point. When the situation got worse we all were given the option to work from home. Our salaries were also cut down. But if you come to think about it, nobody lost their jobs. Hope the things will get better and back to normal soon.

Sep 3, 20 12:57 am  · 
3  · 
Beestings

Though I have been laid off, I'm quite lucky since I still have my sideline and it is work from home too.

Sep 3, 20 2:11 am  · 
 · 
randomised

What’s your sideline?

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Everyone asked to do more for less pay, have you considered joining Architecture Lobby?

Sep 3, 20 3:55 am  · 
2  · 
randomised

Exactly, organise! I managed to do less for more pay, includes a pension plan, paid holidays and all travel expenses paid...

1  · 
square.

love the idea of the lobby. not sure exactly what they are doing though. especially in regards to this problem. there's no collective bargaining mechanism or anything close to it.. for now we're all left to fend for ourselves in the market.

5  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

I think you'll find that there's a lot there. Also if you listen to Buildings On Air podcast, Keefer does a great job of making the case.

1  · 
archanonymous

I wish the Arch Lobby would be a tiny bit less revolutionary and focus on their core mission of advocating for and organizing better working conditions for architects. A lot of their "demands" read like a sophomore philosophy major's fantasies, when I'm pretty sure that the organizing, equitable and fair pay, and diversity elements of their platform would naturally take care of many of the other issues. I still support them - shades of "goodness" - just because you don't exactly agree with someone's platform doesn't mean you throw it out entirely.

5  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

I've read the recent changes to the manifesto, it's much more evolved in the language, so I'll forgive earlier iterations. The part that lands a little odd for me is this insistence that "class" issues will solve "race" issues. We've had 400 years of racial inequity, and maybe 50+ of class.

3  · 
square.

totally beta, i'm all in. love a lot of the talking points. and i follow it pretty closely, because there's really no alternative. i'm just waiting for some material action- feels like mostly talking committees sans the organizing, particularly for the latest "hot" issue (border wall, green new deal, etc.). i second what arch said, this type of organizing often looks small and incremental. but we're a profession, and it needs to start somewhere. i'm very envious of friends who are in unions and not coincidentally have great benefits, salaries and rights. if these goals aren't achievable, then perhaps direct confrontation with the aia would be a good route.

at the end of the day i'm certainly cheering for their success.

2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

what's been really interesting is how the manifesto expands the "architectural worker" paradigm, to include anyone connected to the profession. That seems like a game changer.

On one episode of Buildings On Air, they talked long about the Architecture Union in Brazil, that seems like a great model.

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

This right here;


 · 
awaiting_deletion

solving Class issues solves a lot of issues. calling anyone related to architecture or allowing anyone in to architecture solves more problems but BEWARE the AIA - my bruh Ancient linked this elsewhere -Ponce feature (bottom bottom)    (start at page 38 in Google link)

Read that book and you'll see, the elite (AIA) took out a bottoms-up  kind of movement based on what we architect do - over the top professionalism fake lawyer speak kind of stuff.

2  · 
archi_dude

Curious if maybe what would solve a lot of these issues is a federal law against unpaid overtime for salary positions. Or even a lower work week than 40hrs. For example 10% unemployment means a surplus of 10% labor, reduce the work week by 10%.

3  · 
awaiting_deletion

correct me if I am wrong, but unless you're licensed you get paid for overtime regardless? (I pay 1.5 times, hoping that is correct?) we're set-up as hourlies 40 hours a week. Is there a legal definition of Salary I'm not aware of?

 · 
archi_dude

I had one job like that DTL. and it helped put pressure on management to correctly staff the jobs or extend deadlines. Most firms I worked at didnt do that. Salary basically meant unlimited hours for the same pay. *(

1  · 

It depends on the state and their labor laws. Here in Colorado there is a line in the state labor laws about how if you're a professional and manage others then you're exempt from overtime if you make more than $35,568 a year (this will increase to $55,000 by 2024)

 · 

Chad, that's a nationwide federal labor law. Reposting my post below from the Typical Vacation Days thread when the topic of overtime pay came up:

"Here's an overview from the Dept. of Labor. Note that most architects and aspiring architects could be classified as exempt per the professional exemption assuming they get paid enough ($684 per week or $35,568 per year). https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime"

 · 

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. It depends on your state's overtime pay exemption laws are as some states are more stringent on who can be classified as overtime exempt. Colorado used to have a very broad interpretation of the federal overtime laws and classified anyone with any type of education beyond high school under the federal 'Professional Exemption'. They have now softened quite a bit and have a more restrictions on classifying someone as overtime exempt. Thus interns must be paid overtime in Colorado by state law.


Basically Colorado said that you have to meet several of the criteria from several of the Federal Exemptions (Executive and Professional).  It's a bit confusing.  

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Honestly, the AIA, Dead White Man Walking.

2  · 
awaiting_deletion

I'm not one to join anything (systems are bad), but this lobby may be interesting....I'll look into it. and Yes AIA, they offer great contracts, what is that? Great Lawyer shit in the construction industry, thanks. Get the Lawyers the fuck out!

1  · 
Joanna.Liu

How long your unemployment last, I feel like it is extremely hard time for young professionals. Almost no one is hiring a Junior.

Sep 8, 20 8:09 pm  · 
 · 
flatroof

A firm in Virginia is hiring people with 1-2 years experience. For $10-$15 per hour, depending on Revit skills.

 · 
square.

$10/hr to operate complex software like Revit. incredibly sad.

5  · 
Jay1122

Walmart pays better than that, and with less stress/work. Seriously for those thinking about taking those kind of jobs to ride through it for now. You are better off quitting the field.

2  · 

We pay around $18 an hour for fresh out of school interns with no previous office experience.

 · 
thisisnotmyname

The noobs in my town want $23-25 per hour for zero skills and zero experience.

 ·  1
natematt

I'm with Jay on this one. I used to work at a supermarket, way more chill if the price point was only close ha.

2  · 
natematt

Thisisnotmyname - is that for a grad student? Seems fair for the pre-covid market.

1  · 

Depends on where you live. On a related note a MA has no more experience in architecture than someone with a BA and is not worth more pay right out of school - assuming each has a similar portfolio and student work experience.

 · 

thisisnotmyname - where are you practicing that fresh grads want $23-$25 an hour?

 · 
thisisnotmyname

@ Chad: New Orleans. Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) figures from May 2019 had the average wage for bottom 10% of architect positions (in other words: entry level) in the city at $25.24 per hour. The BLS resources are here: https://www.bls.gov/oes/tables.htm

 · 

Well there you go. Sounds like your area is under paying people and the new blood has caught on.

That being said it dose seem that the BLS number is about 18% too high based on cost of living and the average pay for an intern.  

 · 
thisisnotmyname

Where did you find the numbers for COL and avg.pay to arrive at that BLS is 18% too high?

 · 
archi_dude

The guy who pushes the broom on my site and cleans up random stuff for the super makes $23/hr. There are better jobs out there than ones that try to substitute compensation with fulfillment of ones passion of architecture.

5  · 
randomised

Very true, did some work as a mover and they are a very happy bunch...no burn-outs or depressions there, also loved their attitude that a good mover is a lazy mover.

 · 

thisisnotmyname - I got it from department of labor website, an AIA annual compensation report for Colorado, information from colleagues, and my personal experience.

 · 

archi - where do you practice though? Location makes a huge difference.

 · 
bowling_ball

archi_dude I agree with you to a point. But that's very short term thinking. The guy sweeping on site will be very lucky to ever make $30/hr and will have a broken body long before retirement. The pay ceiling is much higher for architects in the long run, and the only trade off is a weak body, borderline alcoholism, and a heart attack before 60.

 · 
archanonymous

don't forget divorce!

1  · 
awaiting_deletion

the first guy I met sweeping floors made nearly triple my starting salary as architect...(union).

 · 
howdidigethere

Was asked to take three PTO days next week due to being between projects. That's three extra days to work on the resume.

Sep 11, 20 12:06 pm  · 
 · 
Jay1122

Huh? You work when you work. If you cannot finish it, push it to next day. Work is endless. If your supervisor pressures you and expects you to work overtime to finish the work. You are in a shitty exploitative firm.

 · 
thisisnotmyname

Sounds like a plan. You are right to interpret the forced PTO as a warning sign.

 · 
code

A lot of us are on "do or die" situations, we don't have a choice, the client wants results right away, or the project gets put on hold or cancelled - 

Sep 11, 20 1:41 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Those kind of clients can fuck off, they either wait for the results as agreed upon beforehand, or they will simply lose the money they already poured into the project...

 · 
Non Sequitur

Not a lot. Just you.

 · 
awaiting_deletion

when I first started on my own, those were nearly all my clients, as I work and work I deal with them less and less and now people ask nicely or even plead sometimes. JUST SAY NO!

2  · 
awaiting_deletion

Thank God for College Football and teams that end with Kansas.

suck-it Covid.

Sep 12, 20 3:53 pm  · 
 · 
ds1

It seems firms are laying off firms again at end of September since they are running out of PPP money/loans expiring.

Sep 29, 20 5:23 pm  · 
2  · 
Lululala

How do you know? Which firms?

 · 
Irgood

We've ran out of our PPP several months ago. We're still all employed. Winter will be slow, but I see a lot of potential for next Spring.

 · 
Bench

My understanding was that the PPP ran out everywhere around July. And there did seem to be quite a few layoffs at that point, but things seem to be more steady now, especially with what appears to be construction sites across the country all back to fully operational.

 · 
ds1

@Lululala, I just had two friends get laid off this week, both in separate states (CA, NYC). 

 · 
tduds

This might not be universally true but our leadership told us that any layoffs before Oct 1 would jeopardize the PPP loan forgiveness. I'm personally in a good place but I'm worried there might be a big cliff coming at the end of this week for a lot of companies.

 · 
It_is_I

Just heard of several people from the same office, whose furlough period ended, and were laid off due to lack of work. (NYC) Happened last week.  

Sep 30, 20 3:37 pm  · 
 · 
ianscuffling

You don't happen to work (have worked?) at S9 Architecture, did you?

 · 
It_is_I

I have colleagues who have worked there, but i have not worked there. why? who wants to know?

 · 
ianscuffling

They just did the same thing to me, so I was curious if that was the office you were talking about. 2 month furlough and now it's a layoff. Heard my project came back, but they just staffed someone else on it. To anyone else who ever considers them: stay away.

1  · 
It_is_I

Well I haven't heard good things about that place from colleagues, so I would agree on the stay away.

 · 
Lululala

I actually applied to S9 a couple weeks ago because I saw a job opening there. I didn't hear back from them and am glad that I didn't hear back. lol I've been looking for a job since August and it's been tough even to go beyond phone screen calls for interviews. I am thinking about going for PMP certification even though I just got my arch license. 

 · 
Fancy1118

I have friends at S9 - this firm is awful to its employees 

Sep 30, 20 9:47 pm  · 
2  · 
lower.case.yao

also link-arc, terrible firm. 

Sep 30, 20 10:20 pm  · 
1  · 

Sounds like a lot of the firms in NYC are rather 'terrible'.

4  · 
code

 There are other firms like S9, I read their glass door, I used to work for a similar firm in Fremont, Ca. Long hours, Low pay and status meetings, where we were berated by the COO, high turnover. 

Oct 1, 20 1:05 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

funny that their "hr" went and responded to every post. looks petty.

 · 
Jay1122

Its not bad. Look at SBLM glassdoor review and their HR response. Interviews section too. It made me laugh. Close to borderline cursing from HR.

Anyway, good or bad is a relative thing in my opinion. Some firm may be really bad and exploitative for junior, but nice for senior position. Some are just bad teams, not the entire firm. So one should not blindly believe those. Of course, there are some that is actually bad. Mostly small in size I would say. A firm can't grow much if it is really that bad.

2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

The reviews of S9 are a fun read!

1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

SBLM, another classic. I feel better about my day.

 · 

I only saw two bad reviews of S9 on Glassdoor. The rest where 4-5 stars.

 · 
thisisnotmyname

Glassdoor has no mechanism to prevent a firm's management from posing as rank-and-file employees and posting fake glowing reviews. Some firms will also direct their staff to go on Glassdoor and write a batch of good reviews in order to offset however many bad ones there are.

 · 
ianscuffling

It's kinda strange. S9 is the only case where I've seen a review get removed. I think maybe because it mentioned some of the leadership? Not sure. Fortunately, screens were sent around: https://imgur.com/a/VS7rsH8

Think I know who wrote this, but a friend saw it and sent it to me. Couple days later it was taken off. There's good firms in NYC for sure, but like any place, few major egos can really start to take over. S9 has some really great people and good projects, but incredibly messy, toxic leadership. Lots of juniors who are worked to the bone and then higher up titled staff. The intermediate section is where the turnover really happens -- lot of them less than a year. They cut our salaries after a week of being sent home, and didn't let us work from home pretty much until it was mandated. In the future, I'll definitely be on the lookout to understand what kind of turnover a place has and how varied the experience is there.

Oct 1, 20 6:28 pm  · 
 · 
Jay1122

There will still be tons of people trying to get into S9 architecture. Many senior one will leave soon after they got treated bad probably. Junior will endure the heat for a few years because you know why. It is just the nature of the field. The review thinks doing those developer box is bad? Try doing roof replacements and small renovation jobs. Those Developer box looks fantastic to me. At least you learn how a ground up building is made.

1  · 
thisisnotmyname

Your guess is correct. Glassdoor reviews that identify persons by name are a violation of that site's rules and those reviews get removed in their entirety.  If you stick to describing people as "principal"  "project managers", etc. your review will be accepted, even if you are posting a negative review.

 · 
shellarchitect

Reads like a intern level posting. Doesn't meant that there isn't much truth to it, but I suspect that the author has a lot to learn about navigating jerks and large egos.

 · 
shellarchitect

These review are pretty scary!

I don't know what architects are making in New York, but I would have expected significantly more than here in metro-detroit.

Guess I'm never moving out east!

Oct 5, 20 2:49 pm  · 
 · 
sp429

I live in nyc and know a friend working in detroit. Salary is higher though not significantly. I'd also say it depends on the firm. The worst job I've had was in SF.

 · 
code

How so? I worked at numerous firms there

 · 
sp429

A good old boys club where racism and sexism ran rampant. It could have been in nyc, detroit, frankly anywhere USA. I am saying that you can't generalize a whole location like all firms in the east coast are full of assholes.

 · 
shellarchitect

I agree, I was responding to the salary portion. I have 10ish years of exp and make a little over 80k, but cost of living is much lower here than NYC. Just checked CNN's cost of living calculator and 80k here is equal to 200k in NYC!  The inverse is 80k in NYC equals 30k in Detroit.  These are scary numbers if anywhere close to accurate!

 · 
sp429

Can't speak for everyone but with about that level of experience I'd say about 100k here. I don't feel your living calculator is accurate. If you're reasonable about your spending and saving, you can live comfortably. No, I do not have a flat screen TV in every room nor do I have an enormous suburban home with multiple cars, but I do own my home in Manhattan. Even after Covid I like living here and will not be leaving any time soon. To each their own.

 · 
sameolddoctor

Glassdoor reviews for a lot or architectural firms are pretty crappy...

Oct 5, 20 8:20 pm  · 
 · 
archanonymous

I wonder how many firms never even get Glassdoor reviews due to pressure/ visibility/ incestuos nature of architecture communities.

Oct 6, 20 9:47 am  · 
2  · 
tduds

I'm back at 40 hours for the first time since about May. It's a jolt! 

Oct 6, 20 11:47 am  · 
 · 

It was a jolt for me to go back to working full time in the office instead of little three hours chunks throughout the day. Still was doing 40 hours a week but it was nice to take little breaks every few hours.

 · 
tduds

I'm still WFH for the foreseeable future, so not entirely back to normal. But other than the commute I'm trying to get back into my old morning routine... instead of lazing about until 9 or 10 & then plowing through some RFIs before my 2pm nap. Tough life, I know.

 · 
not_NOT_an_architect

yesterday was my first day back at the office in 6 months. commute to work? sit at my desk for literally 8 hours? drive home? Ouch! jolt indeed.....

 · 
Bluebonnet

Just survived a 20% layoff in Houston. Absolutely thankful to still have a job, but I'm becoming increasingly critical of my firm. I'm starting to think it is unsustainably top-heavy. We had 150 people, 29 of which are vice presidents. Now we have 120 people, and you better believe the same 29 vice presidents.

Oct 7, 20 10:08 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Why would the leadership lay themselves off? Is that your criticism?

 · 
Bluebonnet

I suppose my argument is that some should retire or be bought out.

2  · 
Jay1122

There is nothing wrong with top heavy if it is expertise or experience based firm as long as you get fancy projects with enough extra fees to support the principals' high bill rate. If you are efficiency based firm doing simple repetitive projects, then the high bill rate will eat through the fees real fast and cause short budget hours. And remember. in architecture, the more experience the better. No one will force retirement.

1  · 
newguy

"I'm starting to think it is unsustainably top-heavy."

Correct, comrade. Correct.


You're bound to get a lot of boot-licking replies justifying why your mega-corporate experience is somehow okay.  It's not, and your intuition is correct.  Just ask yourself this question:  If the remaining non-presidents of your firm stopped working tomorrow, how much work would get done?

There's your answer.

1  · 
tduds

"How much work would get done?" isn't the question. "How much new work would come in?" is. Doing work is an expense. Bringing in work keeps the lights on. Your VPs aren't drafting because they're out signing new clients (Well, they're supposed to be). Get rid of that and your runway suddenly gets much shorter.

1  · 
tduds

That said if the answer to "How much new work would come in?" is "About the same" then, yeah your firm might be top-heavy.

3  · 
newguy

How much work you reckon would come in if those top-heavy VP's didn't have a labor pool beneath them to PRODUCE the work that is billed? Without labor, capital is nothing. You think those VP's can draft or produce a revit model and working drawings? Not very likely. Those VP's "sell" the labor of their employees. Without the employees, they have nothing to sell.

2  · 

tduds wrote

“. . . Doing work is an expense . . .” 

 Are you saying that staff are an expense of running a firm?

3  · 
Jay1122

You guys need to go read or reread the Architect's handbook for professional practice. I am at the peak right now with my ARE study. You know those VPs may or may not be a marketing guy pulling in clients and job. Other than proposals, they could be doing firm management, project management & finances. They could be managing important clients or projects critical to the firm. They could be doing design decisions and drawing reviews of innovative projects. I bet out of the 29, some are not even doing architecture and many are just good project managers got promoted while still doing similar stuff. The key to whether it is healthy depends on the project the firm gets. The only difference is the billing rate being higher than junior. But can a bunch of juniors work on innovative projects? You only need a few juniors for drafting and Revit modeling. It takes real experience to do innovative design and detailing with no standards/catalogs to follow.

 · 
newguy

And you need to go read volumes 1-3 of Das Kapital

1  · 
tduds

Start bringin' in clients, newguy.

 · 
tduds

"Without the employees, they have nothing to sell." 

Good thing they still have about ~90 employees to cover the work they sold.

1  · 
newguy

Correct. They now have ~90 employees to produce the work of ~120 people so that the 29 VP's don't have to take a haircut.  Hence OP's very legitimate frustration with management.

1  · 
square.

the mega-sized firms aren't that majority of firms in the us (that should be in your ARE study guides.) and though there is an initial period during which the boss needs to be working to generate new clients (in the typical small-sized office), in many cases, they reach that critical juncture where work essentially comes to them based on reputation alone. once that happens, new guy is 100% correct- boss now gets to run around lecturing and wining and dining on the backs of the work the staff generates.

sure, the boss deserves credit for that initial development of the firm, but after a certain period the staff is really generating the bulk of the value. the meidner model would do a lot to make fairly owned workplaces (specifically the employee fund that transition into eventual co-ownership based on increasing shares over time): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

1  · 
newguy

Funny how those very important rain-making client catchers aren't the ones to go when they stop bringing in clients (you know, the thing they ostensibly are so good at). If we are to believe that this is their primary skillset (which we absolutely should reject), then logic would dictate that they would be made redundant when the clients stop coming in. But no, it's the labor pool beneath them that must suffer the consequences.

1  · 
Non Sequitur

well, we survived the last 6 months unscathed and have a very positive outlook for the next 6 months. No staff cuts or layoffs necessary and we even covered 100% of salaries even if the staff was unable to commit to a full work day/week while WFH. Profit shares were even handed out as expected mid-june. While we're not a 100 person office, we could still be considered top heavy with a 1/3 to 2/3 management to staff ratio.

3  · 
square.

profit sharing is a great policy towards employer/employee equity. probably lands somewhere in the middle of this conversation.

1  · 
Non Sequitur

^square, perhaps it's important, but in my case % shares are only for those in the management 1/3 section.

 · 
square.

yeah, that's why in my mind profit share should be the minimum, though it's not standard here by any means. it's a great way to signal that employees have some stake in the game.

on the other hand, i would love to see all employees have shares. they could certainly be scaled towards responsibility/hierarchy (smaller # at the bottom or based on years of employment), or could be collectivized, but something to that gives employees some sense of ownership of all the work they produce.

wishful thinking though..

1  · 
tduds

My current firm is employee owned (not 100% shareholders, but a large majority) & it's the primary reason I applied here. I'd love to see more companies open up to employee ownership, but that's because I'm a dirty socialist.

6  · 
square.

jealous.. i would love to try to convince our leader towards this (especially because these days they are barely involved in projects), but the extent that we practice any democratic principles ends outside the projects. everyone is nice though, so we have that going for us.

 · 
archi_dude

I have noticed that when a "rainmaker" does get let go it's pretty much a end of career scenario. They dont have recent skills with actually running work and the reason they got let go is becuase they probably werent making it rain anymore. I've always been very leery of that route.

1  · 
midlander

29/150 at VP level is a lot. That's approaching a level where you'd say it's just employee owned.m :D BUT you haven't said anything about their compensation structure. In 2009 my office had 3 partners / 60 staff. we all got salary cuts, but for the partners they were paid nothing those 2 years. The majority partner actually put his own money back in. In bigger offices it's common for VP's to have a salary only a bit higher than senior staff, with 50-100% of salary in variable annual bonuses which go to 0 in bad years.

1  · 
Bluebonnet

newguy, your comment that the VPs "aren't the ones to go when they stop bringing in clients" is more accurately what I'm frustrated about. The majority of the VPs are big picture project managers / "rainmakers", very few directly participate in labor - this is why I feel that my firm's structure (especially now) is
disproportionate.

 · 
Bluebonnet

square., tduds, I'm eligible for profit sharing once I've been at my firm for 6 years, so I do have that to be thankful for. I have no clue as to how much money it typically is though.

1  · 
Bluebonnet

midlander, you might be right. All I've heard about compensation is that VP bonuses are ~20x an untitled staff's bonus. They're very secretive about pay structure, and supposedly "adhere to the AIA salary ranges" - you can guess how accurate that is.

 · 
awaiting_deletion

most my clients and prospective clients are kind of over it.

Oct 7, 20 10:12 pm  · 
 · 
archi_dude's comment has been hidden
archi_dude

"We in the wild health organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus. We really do appeal to all world leaders to stop using lockdowns as a primary means of control of this virus. Lockdowns have just one consequence that you must never ever belittle and that is making poor people and awful lot poorer." -Dr. Nabarro special on COVID19 WHO. He advocates for a middle path that finds balance between restrictions and normal life.


Archidude drops mic - Sucks to say I told you so too bad it's way too late now. 

Oct 12, 20 10:46 pm  · 
 ·  2
archi_dude

"It seems that we may well have a doubling of global poverty next year and we may also have a doubling of global child malnutrition."

 · 
newguy

This is a false dilemma. The solution is not binary (lockdown vs no lockdown). A measured lockdown with supplemental economic controls could have subdued the virus without thrusting people into poverty. Likewise, running the economy as normal would (and has) also disproportionately targeted the poor, as they are most likely to be vulnerable to the virus due to their need to leave their homes in order to make ends meet. Pick that mic back up.

3  · 
randomised

Poverty and loss of income (will) have more effect on people’s health and life expectancy than this virus ever will, but that still doesn’t leave governments with a choice but to try and curb it...if people would only wear their mask, wash their hands and don’t go to busy places, it is that simple really, unfortunately...nobody died of wearing a mask or washing their hands.

1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Insufferable dope is at it, again.

Read, dumbassness.

A middle path is needed….  Too many restrictions damage people’s livelihoods and provoke resentment.  ‘Virus run wild’ will lead to lots of deaths as well as debilitating long-Covid among younger people.  

…with three interlinked emphases:

a) People are encouraged to adopt all precautions all the time.  As Tedros of WHO says: ‘Do it All’: physical distancing, proper face-masking, hand/cough/surface hygiene, self-isolating when ill and shielding those most at risk.  There should be no exceptions anywhere.  This is best achieved through engaging people and trusting them rather than coercion if at all possible.  

b) Public health services are organized to offer locally-integrated support for interrupting transmission and suppressing clusters.  This means test-trace-isolate-protect services everywhere, with clearly justified performance metrics.  It is important there is enough testing capacity to pick up where the virus is, to detect spikes and manage surges.  From time to time it will be necessary briefly to restrict movement locally to enable suppression of outbreaks.  [NB Building public health capacity is not the same as implementing lockdowns.  It is about building up the capability of public health services to interrupt transmission in localities.  Experience around the world shows that this capability is key to a successful COVID responses.  Lockdowns just freeze the virus in pace they do not lead to elimination].  

c) Messaging is consistent and clear within and between nations.  If leaders are not consistent in their requests and advocacy, their people will be confused, perhaps frustrated.  In that context the virus is unforgiving and may well spread massively.


 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Lock downs aren't necessary, IF, we can do the three simple steps above, and then they're necessary to manage outbreaks, and give health care to mobilize! This has been said from the get go. You maskholes having been selling numbers you don't understand, and the rational science has been saying; we're trying to stave off rampant hospitalization. You're right about nothing. Again.

 · 
curtkram

the messaging from america's leadership at the federal level has not been consistent and clear.

2  · 
archi_dude

B3ta. You should probably try and read as well. All my previous posts way back in April and May advocated a middle ground approach of just wearing masks, washing hands, distancing and maybe keeping bars closed. Exactly what was stated here. We've been half heartedly doing some of those things for 8 months now while also having giant block parties in the thousands protesting and.....no rampant
hospitalizations.....

 · 
curtkram

how about football games? the nfl stuff with games being postponed and mostly empty stadiums i find interesting.

 · 
x-jla

Wash hands, distance, wear mask, self isolate if sick...it’s all very simple...it’s a minor inconvenience...My state has been up and running for months, and the only thing that’s changed is masks, yet the rates have remained low and steady since the masks became mandatory indoors.

 · 
howdidigethere

Projects put on hold till 4th quarter are now being cancelled/push even further away as cases go back up and clients realize this isn't going away. The end is near.

Oct 14, 20 9:08 am  · 
 ·  1
emersonbiggins

I'm with a firm with offices in the Midwest and South; we laid off about 15% of staff this week, cutting through all levels.  Same old story, unfortunately - projects and clients are slow walking what would've been Q3 2020 starts into Q1 2021. 

Oct 15, 20 6:07 pm  · 
 · 
flatroof

Made me take today off and now they scheduled me for 4 hours next week. I want a phone call don't feel like driving in for the bad news.

Oct 16, 20 12:56 pm  · 
 · 
liberty bell

Sorry to hear, emerson and flatroof.


Does anyone think that business will shift dramatically, either up or down, after the US election results in three weeks?

Oct 16, 20 10:51 pm  · 
 · 
curtkram

the election will be a catalyst that sets off something else that will happen in the couple months following.   may the odds be ever in your favor.

 · 
Non Sequitur

the election is in 3 weeks? dang... I need to pay more attention.

1  · 
thisisnotmyname

There may be some stock market spasms that might affect the willingness of the wealthy to open their wallets for home renovations, 2nd homes etc. Otherwise, I don't think so. The real effects will be later in 2021 if the election winners are able to enact any meaningful policies. Covid is here until 3rd quarter of 2021.

 · 
shellarchitect

Firm furloughed one of 12 trending employees last week.  She told me Friday that she didn’t want to look in case the firm called her back.  Told her not to be dumb and start looking now !

Oct 19, 20 6:13 pm  · 
1  · 
thisisnotmyname

Yes, she should look now. Myself and some friends on the building materials side are not seeing a good outlook for non-residential in 2021 at the moment.

 · 
Lululala

Yep I agree. Furlough will eventually lead to layoff. She should get on updating her resume and portfolio right now!

 · 
bowling_ball

This isn't about layoffs but is related to COVID... We're designing a care facility ($60M-ish) that'll be the first CLT building of this type in my neck of the woods. Going through pricing right now and we found out that by changing from wood to steel studs (interior partitions), we'll save $300k from the budget.


The world is upside down, my friends. Normally a steel stud is 2 to 3 times the cost of wood here. Crazy.

Oct 19, 20 8:12 pm  · 
1  · 

There are lots of issues with supply from Canada right now. There was a CO for expediting panels on one of my jobs.

 · 
Non Sequitur

Hey, stop stealing our wood (gigiti). We need it all for hockey sticks.

3  · 
curtkram

all your wood are belong to us

1  · 
randomised

+1 for the gigiti

1  · 
Jay1122

What kind of interior wall? If it is 3 layer CLT panel with optional gyp board. I am not surprised it cost 300K more than metal stud COVID or not. I like the exposed CLT panel partition wall, exposed wood on both sides. You do need architectural grade though if it is exposed. Only concern is low STC rating. If it is concealed, then I would go with cheaper option.

 · 
bowling_ball

Sorry I should have specified - stick framed interior partitions. Structure is laminated wood beams I believe, with CLT floors.

 · 
Jay1122

oh 2x4 sticks. Big NO NO. That sure defeats the CLT characteristic. The whole point of using CLT is half sustainability, half exposed wood texture. is the exterior wall exposed CLT on the inside face? At least tell me the ceiling of CLT floor is exposed. Wood exterior wall and ceiling with white partition wall is still a good combo in terms of aesthetic.

 · 

Jay, you know what else defeats the point of CLT? Not being able to build the project because it costs too much.

2  · 
Jay1122

Its 60M. I am sure they can squeeze it out of some where. I would rather sacrifice the square footage for it. And you save money on ceilings and wall panels etc. Well, to each of their own. As far as CLT glulam structure vs Steel or concrete cost, I have no idea. I can only dream to do a full CLT building. I also learned money is relative. A typical boxy NYC public school of steel and metal stud I worked on cost $1000/sf by professional estimator. I still don't get how.

 · 
SneakyPete

Did you think about asking?

 · 
Irgood

I work at a mid-sized firm in midwest - after a very slow early fall with potential projects, there does seem to be more steam picking up for potential work.  We also had several small-mid sized projects come through in the last week, which is good news.  However, I know a lot of clients are waiting until next spring and plan on waiting out the pandemic through the winter

Oct 20, 20 10:12 am  · 
 · 
curtkram

office, retail, multi-family, or industrial? or fifth option i didn't think of?

 · 
Irgood

Industrial & Healthcare (surprisingly).

 · 
curtkram

amazon is doing great, so that might help with industrial. we have some healthcare moving forward as well.

 · 
bowling_ball

I was just reading an article about our local construction industry, and oddly enough Industrial is the only sector (vs commercial, etc) where permit applications are up over last year.

 · 

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