I was doing the plan check corrections and was just about the get the drawings approved by the LADBS for a small ground up hillside house, but the client terminated the project. I can't blame them either. The future is very uncertain at the moment. I am sad because it was gem of a house, but hey, people are fighting for their livelihood. Good thing I am one person show and have a teaching job for the foreseeable future. My sympathies for all my architecture colleagues here and elsewhere. Stay healthy and never lose your love for architecture!
This downturn will only last as long as the virus keeps people from working. Its wasn't a market based crash, it was because the economy is physically frozen since many people physically can't work. The virus wont kill as many people as the news will lead you to believe, and the downturn wont be as bad as people think, this extreme market drop will be followed by just as extreme of a recovery once things start running back to normal. If it were a pop in a housing/real estate valuations, architects would be screwed, like they were in the GFC, but this isn't the case. Just hold on tight, ride the wave. Its gonna come and then go and people will forget it was even a thing.
Mar 26, 20 6:25 pm ·
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shellarchitect
I'll inclined to agree. The only caveat is i think we will be subject to endless debate over the response and who is at fault until November. Markets abhor uncertainty, which we won't have for awhile
on the upside, although the bank wouldn't give me more money to keep my firm up and running they are not asking me to pay for 30 days...I'm in a FEMA crisis zone.
Mar 26, 20 7:41 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
I am really hoping the small business loans in the stimulus package will address people's cash flow issues. The regular SBA disaster loans available today don't appear to be something my firm would immediately qualify for or receive in a timely manner.
The NYC Department of Design and Construction has halted all projects: Design though Construction Administration. This is HUGE for NYC architects..
Mar 26, 20 8:57 pm ·
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revolutionary poet
to be clear those are city contracts. not private business contracts.
Mar 26, 20 9:17 pm ·
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Doc Arch
of course. For my office it is HUGE
Mar 26, 20 9:23 pm ·
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curtkram
why would they stop design?
Mar 26, 20 9:42 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
either or both of these: a) make sure firms are truly on lockdown and associated business activity is minimized and b) to save money on design fees because of tax revenue losses and costs of crisis response.
Mar 27, 20 11:34 am ·
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archi_dude
Wait business activity has to stop even if you are working at home? Whaaaat?
Mar 27, 20 11:51 am ·
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thisisnotmyname
Even in full WFH mode, you are probably still causing some number of trips by delivery people, etc. I had to go out to mail hard copies of a contract and we are continue to have product submittals and samples coming and going.
So with falling case numbers why did Washington get even stricter and stop construction? Not sure how much logic is forcing this decisions besides complete hysteria. Supposedly the reason you cant go surfing in California is becuase some one might drool in the water....I can guarantee I'm not going to get sick from someone's spit in the ocean sitting 40' from me
Mar 27, 20 11:56 am ·
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SneakyPete
The parking lots and the shoulders and the people shitting in the bushes because the toilets are locked is a problem.
Mar 27, 20 12:00 pm ·
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Bench
The surfing would have more to do with eliminating the possibility of unnecessary search and rescue operations happening during the crisis. Not actual transmission.
Mar 27, 20 12:01 pm ·
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archi_dude
Oh you mean like the multiple helicopter flybys they are doing and lifeguard patrols to make sure no ones in the hidden coves right now vs. the 1 search and rescue that happens a year?
Mar 27, 20 12:21 pm ·
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tduds
Pro-tip: Trust epidemiologists'
expertise as much as you wish your clients trusted yours.
Mar 27, 20 12:33 pm ·
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SneakyPete
I trust the experts until they FUCK WITH MY PASSIONS. (Not really, I'm currently really pissed off at all of the irresponsible fuckwads overwhelming the climbing areas)
Mar 27, 20 12:36 pm ·
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archi_dude
Epidemiologists want to completely squash this at all costs necessary. Most architects want to make every cafe the Taj Mahal. I'm pointing out scenarios that seem as though we are being driven by hysteria and not a well rounded discussion with all stakeholders. Original question is why are they moving to shut down construction at great economic and individual pain when cases are slowing in Washington. Surfing was just an example. Close parking lots to reduce crowds, totally get it. Utilizing mass police, air support and lifeguard boat resources to patrol every inch of Sam Diego coastline even while the CDC says there is no evidence of transmission in water...crazy.
Mar 27, 20 1:12 pm ·
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SneakyPete
hysteria? In the age of Trump? Who would have ever seen this coming?
Mar 27, 20 1:20 pm ·
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tduds
What's the ideal number of people who will be allowed to die so the construction industry can remain open?
Mar 27, 20 1:59 pm ·
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tduds
"The dam is working, time to tear it down" is essentially what you're saying.
Mar 27, 20 2:00 pm ·
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archi_dude
The numbers show the damn was working before construction is halted. Washington and Itally closed construction this week. Both were experiencing case reductions. My argument is actually the dam is working, why do you need to build it higher and drown more communities in the event of a 1000 yr flood?
Mar 27, 20 2:16 pm ·
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newbie.Phronesis
Because they want to completely halt the spread? US overall has more cases than China now, and considering don't have great healthcare... >.>
Mar 27, 20 2:29 pm ·
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SneakyPete
*waits for the per capita rebuttal*
Mar 27, 20 2:48 pm ·
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archi_dude
What's the ideal type of economic collapse we are willing to suffer in order to halt the spread, thought we were just flattening the curve btw. Puerto Rico, Greece, Venezuela or full on Nigeria? Does that work Sneaky?
Mar 27, 20 3:22 pm ·
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SneakyPete
Not sure why you singled me out. I'm leaving the policy making to the experts. Armchair discussions are all well and good, but when someone like Donald J. Trump tells me it's safe, I tell him the same thing I tell a guy at the bar giving me life advice.
Mar 27, 20 3:45 pm ·
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proto
the numbers don't show the dam is working -- the numbers are unfortunately an empty statistic until testing is more widely spread
Mar 27, 20 3:59 pm ·
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CodesareFUN
Balkins is Dr. Fauci? Dude get off Archinect!
Mar 27, 20 5:39 pm ·
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midlander
when a fire is 60% contained, do you say the firefighting effort is working and send the fire department home to minimize further water damage?
Mar 27, 20 6:33 pm ·
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archi_dude
Nope, read dam response. But also you'd definitely reduce resources and divide and conquer if you noticed the fire was spreading to another critical location that needed help.
Mar 27, 20 6:42 pm ·
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SneakyPete
dude, is the fire coronavirus or the economic downturn?
Mar 27, 20 6:56 pm ·
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x-jla
Said from the beginning, we need a total 30 day national lockdown. All bills and everything should be frozen. That would make this much faster to get over.
Mar 27, 20 7:07 pm ·
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x-jla
And less painful for businesses
Mar 27, 20 7:07 pm ·
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archi_dude
What happens after Jlax? when you open back up and you still have no immunity in the population but spread still happening around the world?
Hi all..It has been too long since I actually posted something here in the Forum! Anywho, anecdotally...my wife and the other "newest" employee (both yr-ish +) at their small (8-10 person) design firm, got let go in last 24hrs. As I understand it everyone else is taking a reduction in hours and work is shifting. On the other-hand, there have been postings on the Jobs boards this month by some local/regional firms, so who knows?! One bright spot, they are paying out sick/vacation days and its on good terms/not personal.
None of our projects are on hold as of yet! Been keeping everyone busy and will probably bring some people on board! It's scary as fuck though. I told my accountant to bill everything asap and hope we get paid.
my understanding is if you keep people on it's a grant, if not it's a loan, looking into it.
but government moves slower than private business so not sure the alignment happens here. i.e. keeping on people with cash funds while applying for loans.
I've been working as much as I can around university and mostly that's dried up now (I was mostly doing photography and surveying work as it was easy to fit round uni work but its pretty hard to do during a pandemic) after I...work out how to afford rent and food for the rest of this degree though I'm mostly worried about what on earth I should do post-graduation.
Graduating MArch in the UK and presumably not going to get a job in the industry any time soon. Once I'm not working on final portfolios, dissertations and such I can do something that will at least earn money, ideally something relevant but idk what. If not will be something like supermarket work and I should probably use the time to learn something useful outside of that (get better at revit maybe?)
I'm in London and the property market is weird here now, is it the same elsewhere? sales of housing has practically halted, rents are down and airbnb places are being put onto the regular rental market. I don't know if it'll have a lasting effect or n effect on architecture profession but its some weird stuff
Yay, I'm graduating with a BS Arch this semester! It's getting real tired to feel so absurdly hopeless and vulnerable. I should get used to it.
Lost a few CAD interviews in construction because of the virus. I know I won't get architecture interviews. But if I want some roof over my head, I can go flip burgers and pray someone will make me a CAD jockey. Woo, 5 years of school and mental degradation for the glorious right to beg for CAD work. Tbf, I like CAD, but the emotional stress of it all has been...so much. Too much.
Should I...even bother with the built environment? Damn I love it, damn I'd like to become a builder, but at this rate, why should the younger guys even bother with dreaming buildings?
I guess...I've settled knowing that architecture doesn't bring tangible value, and we have to convince others we have ANY value. But, I...haven't processed that yet. That architecture is an art, equally unstable and fueled by misery. And we're taught to treat it like a career.
Yeah, no, sorry, I'm just...tired of being vulnerable, but being unable to switch yet. Is hopelessness an architect's rite of passage? Does it ever get better?
Mar 29, 20 2:50 am ·
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liberty bell
Daniel: I taught a Professional Practice course in 2009-10. Two years of facing my about-to-graduate students and saying “This is how practice works, but you’re graduating into an economy with zero job opportunities.” What I focused on was that this *is* a profession that follows the economy, but your schooling has given you a set of creative skills that *can* be applied to other fields, too. Ten years later a lot of those students are doing other things but most of them are architects - they weathered the recession in bartending while volunteering for non-profits related to the built world (networking), or they worked in construction, or they designed decks or basement remodels for their dad’s dentist’s sister, or lots of other things tangentially related to the “profession.”
Mar 29, 20 9:20 am ·
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liberty bell
Which is all to say: YES it gets better, then it gets bad again, then it gets awesome, then it kicks you in the teeth again....but honestly what profession *doesn't* have those ups and downs? None.
Mar 29, 20 9:22 am ·
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Bench
Donna - maybe that's a good request for a next Sessions podcast, about your experiences teaching during the recession and lessons learned from that time. I graduated smack into the worst depths of the recession (especially in Canada, where everything lagged a bit longer) and basically had to shuffle between jobs in some of the most geographically remote parts of the country. That was the only way to stay in the industry. I'd love to hear a podcast of your thoughts as we drop into what might be another one.
Mar 30, 20 8:43 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Donna, to add some noise to the discussion (and I second Bench's podcast point), I had a prof-practice prof during my M.Arch (and another during undergrad) who echoed what you're saying. It definitively changed my understanding and expectations coming into the working world mid 09.
Mid size firm in the Toronto area. Production staff layoffs and pay cuts across the board. Still expected to maintain full work week (40+ hrs) with the pay cut. As of right now, project work has only been minimally impacted.
Are other folks maintaining full time work with pay cuts as well?
Mar 29, 20 2:02 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Time to find a better office.
Mar 29, 20 4:11 pm ·
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anonla
Yeah - I hear it's a really hot job market
Mar 29, 20 5:38 pm ·
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Dangermouse
Wow, that is absurd. If you can, tell them to fuck off. If not, my condolences. Any chance you can name and shame?
Mar 29, 20 5:57 pm ·
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OneLostArchitect
Does it start with a G?
Mar 29, 20 6:52 pm ·
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Bench
Why are there pay cuts if project work was minimally impacted?
Mar 29, 20 7:48 pm ·
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anonla
We haven't been given much reason yet other than COVID... and sorry, don't feel comfortable giving the name of the office
Mar 29, 20 8:19 pm ·
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bowling_ball
Yeah that's nonsense. Start looking elsewhere. Not every firm is in a downturn, believe it or not.
Mar 30, 20 1:09 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Curious about office name too... we have contract and labour laws here that likely are getting trampled. Anonla, what's the office's main area of work
?
Mar 30, 20 8:48 am ·
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UltraViolet88
Same situation and city - hospitality focused.
Apr 3, 20 12:40 pm ·
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George Gibson's comment has been hidden
View comment
Half of the staff at medium office here in LA asked to take PTO for this week, in addition to 20% pay and hours cut. Sucks.
Still believe this is not because of China and their delayed response to the crisis created by their wet markets?
Mar 30, 20 12:24 am ·
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liberty bell
Stop being racist, same old. Please.
Mar 30, 20 6:54 am ·
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revolutionary poet's comment has been hidden
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This article gives a reasonable timeline of events. I first heard about the novel coronavirus - before the term COVID-19 had even been coined to name the illness - in the middle of January. The science podcast I listen to religiously, Skeptics Guide to the Universe, first reported on it 25 January, and I had heard of it previous to that (I remember looking forward to hearing what the skeptics would report). The first US case of it was reported 20 January. *Anyone who was paying attention* knew that there were serious risks by 1 February, and what did our country do to prepare during the month of February? Next to nothing. It's not China's fault that we are totally unprepared, it's ours.
again not China /\, Communist China. They shut the first whistle blower up, couldn't contain the virus, and caused a pandemic. Blame the communists is fair and not racist.
What are we going to call Chinese food if that is considered racist now?
Mar 30, 20 11:17 am ·
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Non Sequitur
delicious
Mar 30, 20 11:18 am ·
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gibbost
To my knowledge, Chinese take-out has never lead to groups of people being beaten, spat on, yelled at, or insulted. Fear and anxiety can naturally lead to blaming others. In this case, assigning blame will not lead to our survival. In fact, science has proven that our immune systems are enhanced by compassion and community--and damaged by contempt.
Exactly, gibbost. One Lost, please stop being intentionally obtuse.
Mar 30, 20 12:01 pm ·
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Volunteer
If the Chinese people called it the 'Wuhan virus' they would be silenced and likely hauled away. That pretty much tells you all you need to know about the Chinese government. Perhaps we should call it the 'Chinese Communist Party' virus
?
Mar 30, 20 12:30 pm ·
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SneakyPete
keep talking, it's good to know who the bigots are, no matter the stripe or degree
Mar 30, 20 12:42 pm ·
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OneLostArchitect
I never called it the Chinese Virus here folks... I'm simply asking the question... what do we call Chinese food now?
Mar 30, 20 1:03 pm ·
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Bench
I mean, if you're in China you'd probably just call it "food" ...
Mar 30, 20 1:13 pm ·
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tduds
Questions don't get to
exist in a vacuum just because you're on the wrong side of the obvious context.
The adjective obtuse is good for describing someone slow on the uptake: "Don't be so obtuse: get with the program!" The adjective obtuse literally means "rounded" or "blunt," but when it's used for a person, it means "not quick or alert in perception" — in other words, not the sharpest tool in the shed.
how’s everyone liking their 30 day free trial of socialism?
Mar 30, 20 1:51 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
business as usual here, but at home instead. I am drinking about twice as much coffee... 5th, 6th cup? I guess I should stop making full pots when I don't have coworkers present to help with the consumption.
Mar 30, 20 1:56 pm ·
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atelier nobody
I wish I still had dogs.
Mar 30, 20 1:59 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Did you eat them? I can't be that bad.
Mar 30, 20 2:02 pm ·
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atelier nobody
I had to let them go after "the incident".
Mar 30, 20 2:06 pm ·
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tduds
Still feels extremely capitalist, so far. Not sure what you're on about.
Mar 30, 20 2:15 pm ·
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Chad Miller
jla-x learn the definitions of socialism and democratic socialism. Until then shut the fuck up you moron.
Mar 30, 20 2:17 pm ·
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tduds
.
Mar 30, 20 2:21 pm ·
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OneLostArchitect
Justin Turdo is promising me money!!! GIVE ME MY MONEY!!!
Mar 30, 20 2:37 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
it'll come.
Mar 30, 20 2:39 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
Gee, I was thinking this was kleptocratic-libertarianism.
Mar 30, 20 2:40 pm ·
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x-jla
No silly. This is what Democratic socialism under a shitty democratically elected regime/s feels like. Lol.
Mar 30, 20 3:05 pm ·
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x-jla
But for real, cash those 1200$ checks and see how long the government can support us without private industry running.
Mar 30, 20 3:09 pm ·
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JLC-1
HAH! so printing 2 trillion dollars to save the sorry asses of badly managed corporations and their fat ceo's is not socialism? I knew there was a reason I had ignored you for so long.
Mar 30, 20 3:41 pm ·
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tduds
Socialism is the labor-owned means of production.
Mar 30, 20 3:49 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
jlax, when did you live in a DemSoc country, cause this ain't it; this is Post-Capitalism, Disaster Capitalism.
Mar 30, 20 3:59 pm ·
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x-jla
This is socialism commercial break disaster mitigation
Mar 30, 20 5:34 pm ·
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x-jla
Capitalism is the thing we are all missing rn.
Mar 30, 20 5:34 pm ·
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JLC-1
sure jan, it's easy to shift responsibility when things go bad, wouldn't hire you for a job ever.
Mar 30, 20 5:38 pm ·
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tduds
Nice to see we're still pretending "Capitalism" and "Socialism" are two mutually exclusive and opposite sides of a coin despite my attempts to point out the absolute absurdity of this way of thinking in basically every thread it's mentioned.
Mar 30, 20 5:42 pm ·
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revolutionary poet
qoutable "Nice to see we're still pretending "Capitalism" and "Socialism" are two mutually exclusive and opposite sides of a coin despite my attempts to point out the absolute absurdity of this way of thinking in basically every thread it's mentioned. "
Mar 30, 20 6:26 pm ·
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curtkram
how is capitalism a thing we're missing? people aren't going to work because the government shut down a lot of businesses to slow the spread of this virus. if the government didn't do that, more people would be getting sick. as it is, i can get food from a bar and have it delivered to my house with no contact. how is that not capitalism?
The last few entrys in this thread remind me of the Canadian member of the World Health Organization who hung up on a reporter who asked about Tiawan's response to the pandemic. Why? Because China considers Tiawan to be part of the Chinese mainland and nobody is allowed to piss off the Chinese leaders, apparently.
"A senior advisor to the World Health Organization who had returned from China [Bruce Alyward] appared to hang up on a journalist who asked about Taiwan’s response to the coronavirus pandemic, and then did not answer further questions because they had “already talked about China”."
Mar 30, 20 2:13 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
you're reading too much into this. Loosen the tin foil hat a little.
Mar 30, 20 2:18 pm ·
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tduds
I actually agree with Volunteer here. The world is extremely touchy when it comes to Taiwan, for exactly the reasons described.
Mar 30, 20 2:19 pm ·
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x-jla
China and the WHO are buddies.
Mar 30, 20 3:08 pm ·
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tduds
^
Technically not wrong but oversimplified beyond the point of usefulness.
Mar 30, 20 3:50 pm ·
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Volunteer
"Taiwan’s government has said that keeping it out of the WHO during the outbreak amounts to playing politics with Taiwanese lives, even as the island has won plaudits for keeping its case toll so comparatively low thanks to early detection and control methods." Reuters
Company meeting just announced firm-wide meeting tomorrow....bracing for pay cuts. A couple of our large projects in CDs have gone on hold and ones that were supposed to start are also on hold.
No one is blaming the Chinese race, it’s the Chinese government for allowing the wet markets to happen, and then covering them up intentionally.
It’s cute to see white people talk about racism, but yes I’m Asian too and saying it like it is. China (and not your neighborhood Chinese restaurant) should be held accountable. Let’s talk when you are out of your jobs
So, can’t criticize the Chinese communist party because some assholes are being mean to Chinese people? That’s pretty ridiculous. I think the Chinese regime has gone under the radar for years for their terrible human rights abuses, authoritarianism, etc...all because we like cheap stuff. We Americans were complicit. Now, we see the consequences of their suppression of truth. How many journalists and doctors disappeared who were tying to get the truth out early on?
Mar 30, 20 5:15 pm ·
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x-jla
The people of China, and the Chinese people who live outside of China have absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. The Chinese authoritarian state is very secretive and oppressive. Their secretive nature likely is to blame for this thing getting out of control early on. They tried to hide it, and let people move around freely for at least a month before it became obvious.
Mar 30, 20 5:21 pm ·
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x-jla
And the markets are what they are. It’s not the first time a pandemic started in these conditions. Chinese culture is not to blame, but it certainly is responsible for it. Likewise, Italian culture is likely why deaths are so high. Not about right or wrong, from a moral standpoint, but definitely can say whether a cultural practice is dangerous or not.
Mar 30, 20 5:24 pm ·
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Archinect
Of course you can blame the Chinese government if that's how you want to spend your energy, you can do whatever you want. You can also be an idiot and remain blissfully ignorant that a lot of stupid racist people in this country use that criticism to fuel and justify their racist attacks.
Mar 30, 20 5:27 pm ·
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x-jla
I’m not going to curb the truth because some fat dummy from Alabama posts something racist on FB. That’s completely silly If someone is too stupid to differentiate between the Chinese state, and an everyday Chinese person living in California, then that’s their mental disease.
Mar 30, 20 5:32 pm ·
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Archinect
Keep up the brave work of pointing fingers.
Mar 30, 20 5:35 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
The corruption of local party apparatchik caused a lot of this mess, it's generally understood that local party leaders are corrupt. Sound familiar? Additionally, what's been reported recently is negative impacts of Capitalism and its relationship to factory farming in China, as it directly impacts the poorest in China, and their ability to eat.
Mar 30, 20 5:40 pm ·
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tduds
"I’m not going to curb the truth because some fat dummy from Alabama posts something racist on FB." I'd have more confidence in this if your "truth" wasn't displaying a somewhat facile knowledge of Chinese government, politics, & history. The problem with painting with such a broad brush is that, in their generalization, these statements can give cover to more xenophobic and racist sentiment.
Mar 30, 20 5:45 pm ·
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tduds
Perhaps it's worth investing some of your recently mandated free time in a good book or two on China.
Mar 30, 20 5:46 pm ·
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metal
I agree. This is no time for political correctness. China actions have been questionable for years. Now the world knows.
Mar 30, 20 5:48 pm ·
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tduds
I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again - the magnitude of this pandemic has laid bare the Achilles' Heel of authoritarianism - in both China and the US (and elswhere). Good news for the boss is rewarded, bad news for the boss is punished. The incentive, then, is to hide bad reality in favor of good fiction. This is how Mao's famine started, and it's how COVID got a foothold in China, and later the US.
Mar 30, 20 5:50 pm ·
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metal
And just look up how the WHO responded to questions regarding Taiwan, the number of urns for the dead, cell phone use compared to the number if deceased they are reporting. Thats a problem.
Mar 30, 20 5:54 pm ·
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revolutionary poet
in case you're looking to blame anyone, blame humans. when human's expand into former ecologies they start to mix with these ecologies and whence comes virus's that we were not familiar with prior.
Mar 30, 20 7:08 pm ·
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x-jla
B3, China has been benefiting from US capitalism and US has been benefiting from Chinese communism for years. It’s a relationship that allows us to outsource all the things we want to do but aren’t allowed to do.
Mar 30, 20 7:11 pm ·
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sameolddoctor
Wow, what a spirited discussion. Masters of Archinect, you really did gloss over the face that I am Asian too, didn't you? Other countries in Asia are also sick and tired of China's bulllshit authoritarian regime and the effect of their policies seeping over to their neighbors. I am also sure that most of the people defending China here on this forum have indeed never been there or do not intend to. (I have, several times)
Not sure why we need to be so PC about a country that has effectively indulged in bioterrorism and managed to spread it around with their inaction.
Again, this is not about Asian or Chinese people in general, but their GOVERNMENT. Speaking of which, not sure if any of you guys heard that some wildlife markets are back in full swing, as China wakes up from COVID-19. Regulation, my foot.
Mar 31, 20 12:03 am ·
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SneakyPete
Cool, you're Asian. That's neat. Doesn't inoculate you from accusations of ignorance and bigotry, though.
This thread is like halfway social media dumbasses and halfway really smart people. It's quite interesting.
Anyway, the governments has some SBA stuff (500 or less employees) that may help you keep staff on, it's a great deal and its slow, but if your firm has the cash reserve for 2 months+ operations they could keep everyone on at a very small loss, if at all if you have a great accountant.
This post serves no practical purpose unless you're going to start naming people in each camp.
Mar 30, 20 7:00 pm ·
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revolutionary poet
read paragraph 2, no need to get emotional ;) and I don't name people, this is the internet, it's not real. even if you uses your real name.
Mar 30, 20 7:06 pm ·
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liberty bell
Then use your real name chris you coward.
Mar 30, 20 7:43 pm ·
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revolutionary poet
que? do you even read what write?
Mar 30, 20 8:00 pm ·
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tduds
Dibs on being one of the smart ones.
Mar 30, 20 8:05 pm ·
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revolutionary poet
yes tduds and you have clearly read the literature. Ms. Bella, back in the day on archinect you could make-up your name in a thread which was then somewhat contextual, that's how I view all this. this is the internet, its words, thoughts, characters, shit that flies together to make you think or not think (which appears to be the current trend).
I'm realizing now my reply probably came off as me being annoyed ... my bad. It was intended to be humorous with regard to paragraph 1. Dunning-Kruger would indicate that the majority probably thinks they're one of the smart ones.
Mar 30, 20 8:39 pm ·
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revolutionary poet
tone, never quite expressed well on the internet either, which makes conversations interesting. There is a method on gauging intelligence among intelligent people though...
Mar 30, 20 9:11 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
I don't smart enough to associate with smart ones. I guess i'm in the dumb camp. With that said, we're 2 weeks into our 3weeks "everyone still gets paid even if you can't work" experiment. I expect an update in a few days.
Mar 30, 20 9:28 pm ·
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curtkram
everyone grab a 20 sided dice and roll. if you get above 15 you get to get to be one of the smart ones
Apr 2, 20 7:43 pm ·
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liberty bell's comment has been hidden
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Can we get back to lay-off/job security issues please? We got news today that construction unknowns mean that what had been a two-year phased project is now planned for four years (academic sector). Which means the same amount of work up front, but a longer payment timeline.
We've had a bunch of projects go on hold (as far as I know nothing out-right cancelled yet, just paused) but for now a majority of projects - including my own - are marching ahead.
Looking at some salary cuts and a freeze on any discretionary spending, but for the moment no layoffs (for the moment). Fingers crossed this is a shorter disruption than the last one.
If you just got laid off, I am very, very sorry. I am in an East coast based 100 person firm- have had about 30% of our projects go on pause. Had a long meeting today going through "The List" which sucked and I cried afterward. Whole firm will have payroll reductions, we will furlough or lay off 10%-15% of staff on April 1.
In 2008, I was afraid for my job - I was only 2 years out of school and cheap labor so made it through luckily, now I am in "management" and I see every name on that list as a person who is supporting a family or who is sending money home to help their folks and pay their school loans.
I also talk to my relatives and friends who work in healthcare as doctors, nurses, EMTs and we should ALL be worried about this virus. Please do everything you can to stay healthy, well and take care of each other-
Mar 30, 20 8:43 pm ·
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liberty bell
This is a good post, dominiond. Thank you for sharing how your perspective developed over the last 20 years. Hang in there.
We've apparently had a few clients reach out to "pause" their projects as well. Leaders were very intentional to indicate this is not on hold, and not cancelled. Hasn't really affected my work yet.
I don't think anyone is getting laid off at my office yet. We've had a good first of the year so far so we might have a bit of a buffer before we really need to trim some fat. We are still submitting for RFPs and getting awarded work as recently as Friday.
I think the biggest unknown for us is when we can get back to construction on those non-essential projects where it has been forced to stop by state government order. A lot of our in construction work is allowed to proceed though so staff has mostly been able to shuffle around to keep everyone busy and billable.
Mar 30, 20 8:45 pm ·
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curtkram
what's the difference between "pause" and "on hold?"
Mar 30, 20 9:08 pm ·
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revolutionary poet
I would assume "pause" means - we were in the middle of finishing this wtf versus "hold" - meaning we are low on funds and will rdirect soon.
They way I'm choosing to look at it, because there hasn't been any sort of definition offered by the leadership, is that a pause is a short-term temporary thing, while a hold might be longer-term. I'm pausing my netflix show to get a drink from the fridge, but I'm holding off on finishing that netflix series until I have more time to devote to it.
We were on a conference call today with an SBA director. They said the particular terms and application process for the paycheck protection program would be coming out later this week.
The beginning of the podcast gives a really good and accessible summary of the big picture points of how the CARES Act and Coronavirus Relief bill pertains to individuals and families (gig workers, 1099, how to borrow from your 401K, etc...)
i currently work for a large, global firm with sizeable office in NYC. we all just found out that everyone is receiving pay cuts starting april 1st. layoffs haven't been announced but i'm almost certain that this is just the beginning.
I've decided to keep all of my firm's staff and roll the dice on the whole Payroll Protection Program thing. We haven't had any jobs cancelled or paused yet, but only about 1/3 of the clients are bothering to pay their invoices within 30 days, but it's been that way since well before COVID-19.
Apr 1, 20 12:01 am ·
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sameolddoctor
Good. I was just reviewing the terms of the PPP and they seem rather favorable. 2 months of payroll + 25%, most of which can be "forgiven". Sound like an awesome deal.
Apr 1, 20 12:44 am ·
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thisisnotmyname
I'm counting on the "forgiven" part, more business debt that has to somehow be paid back with interest on the other side of all this isn't going to be terribly helpful in the big picture.
My husband's business is doing the same, thisisnotmyname, and the non-profit I manage is as well.
Apr 1, 20 8:49 am ·
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proto
yeah, not really looking to add debt at this point, but the PPP could help us survive the covid-peak (I have zero billable atm & my partner has +/-40 hrs)
well, we've had 40% of our work go on "hold" - most of that being donor driven non-profit/private sector institutional work. none were in construction - all of our work underway is continuing. 2 layoffs. worst day of my work life.
we are having to take a lot harder look at which trees we are shaking at the moment. i have heard of some developer work/rfp's continuing to move forward but as someone noted above, those type clients are going to have a lot more leverage in terms of pricing/payment right now.
(and yes, we know about the sba PPP programs - part of the issue is some of that work likely won't come back at all; some will come back next year; some might get started again this fall. a lot depends on how people's portfolio's look and how generous/bullish they're feeling. so, based on that, doing a short term bridge loan that can be forgiven might - in our case - buy a little time but not enough.)
Apr 1, 20 10:06 am ·
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sameolddoctor
As far as I have read, the PPP loan is to ensure that you keep your staff employed. Indeed, if one lays of staff after taking the loan, the loan cannot be forgiven. So, regardless of whether projects come back or not, would be wise (and kind) to take the loan and keep the staff around for if and when this turns around...
SBA will forgive loans if all employees are kept on the payroll for eight weeks and the money is used for payroll, rent, mortgage interest, or utilities.
The Paycheck Protection Program will be available through June 30, 2020.
that's from the SBA website. in our case, the period of uncertainty is really closer to 6 months.
Apr 1, 20 1:41 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
Exactly. The idea is to buy employers some time for the next 2 months and avoid layoffs right now. If nothing else, I can have staff people spend the 2 months calling our deadbeat sh*tbag clients every 4 hours to see when they are going to pay their delinquent invoices.
Gregory, I'm genuinely sorry you have to make some tough decisions not only affecting your business and livelihood, but those of your employees as well. I appreciate your candor and point of view as an employer on the forum. I'm also genuinely curious, if you care to elaborate, on why you wouldn't be able to keep your staff on for the next 8 weeks by taking the PPP loan and reassessing in 2 months' time?
Also from the SBA website (emphasis mine), "The loan will be fully forgiven if the funds are used for payroll costs, interest on mortgages, rent, and utilities (due to likely high subscription, at least 75% of the forgiven amount must have been used for payroll). Loan payments will also be deferred for six months. No collateral or personal guarantees are required. Neither the government nor lenders will charge small businesses any fees."
Apr 1, 20 2:10 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
I just got an email from my city government saying PPP will cover "retaining current workers and rehiringlaid off workers". That's good news if correct (everybody should always go directly to the SBA for definitive info on SBA programs).
Know also that SBA works strictly on a first-come, first-served basis. Any consultant or whatnot that wants to charge you a fee to expedite your loan is a scammer...
Apr 1, 20 3:21 pm ·
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sameolddoctor
Wrong, the SBA isnt first come, first serve. The application starts on April the 3rd, and should be done in the first few days, if only to avoid backlogs.
A similar PPP programme was announced on 20 March in UK - Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme paying furlough staff 80% up to £2500 per month. Small business in hospitality can apply for £25,000 grant. Extended the UK programme to include self-employed on 26th. Also announced mortgage holiday for 3 months.
US is really behind the ball supporting working people. I am so pleased I live in a country with the National Health System -
So are we all hoping for a medicare to all approach to health care?
While the US will pay for the 'test' if you take the test at an emergency room expect to pay $2k - and don't even think of the cost if you end up hospitalized in an ICU for 30 days or more.
The pandemic demonstrates how fragile our systems are - sad days ahead.
“Doctors across the frontlines are extremely concerned about the lack of personal protective equipment [PPE]. Many have told us they have tried to raise concerns through the proper channels but have been warned against taking these concerns further,” the president of the Doctors’ Association UK (DAUK), Dr Samantha Batt Rawden, toldThe Guardian.
“At this time when we desperately need every single doctor on the frontline, some have had their careers threatened, and at least two doctors have been sent home from work. This is unacceptable. Doctors have a moral duty to make their concerns regarding Covid-19 public if these cannot be resolved locally,” Rawden went on to say.
According to the DAUK, one doctor who raised concern about the lack of medical masks was told by hospital management that: “If we hear of these concerns going outside these four walls your career and your position here will be untenable.”
volunteer is only selecting negative information (what country isn't short on medical supplies??), conveniently ignoring the fact that as you mentioned your ER covid test will cost you a cool 2k.. but luckily we can all use our one time stimulus money to cover 60% of the cost! no one can claim the US has done anything other than a bare minimum, patchwork response to this disaster. but we shouldn't expect anything less... rugged individualism is our way of life
I get my NHS and my US Stimulus Check signed by Trump is in the mail -
UKs response was slow to start and admittedly the Tories (Conservatives) have put in austerity measures for 10+ years resulting in big shortages in nurse/doctors.
2 weeks ago NHS wrote and texted 1.5 Million venerable people ordering them to shelter in place for 12 weeks - can not go outside. All UK has a stay at home order so this 'sheltering' is a higher level. This is supported by a network of community support(750,00 people signed up) delivering food and medicine with the UK government delivering weekly food/care packages to home. The list of 1.5 Mil included cancer patients with a particular focus on blood cancers, folks who received transplants not just over 70-year-olds. Nationalised public health allows you to take this type of action. Protecting the most venerable is a clear strategy to keep the hospitalization low.
Additionally, UK government asked all local authorities to put all homeless members of society in housing/hotels for the near future - next 3 months. Again, housing the homeless will keep them out of hospitals.
Apr 1, 20 11:40 am ·
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Everyday Architect's comment has been hidden
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NS, that's hilarious. The God that can save you from all your sins wouldn't be able to forgive you if you ate an Impossible Whopper. He created the heavens and the earth, but can't figure out this DNA thing. He's just sitting up there thinking, crap ... the devil got me this time.
Also, why does this guy think that God won't save other species? In 1989 I learned that all dogs go to heaven.
There is always someone who is choosing to have more fun than you, and for some that just frost their cookies, or gets their guff, or some other christian way of cursing. In the Southern tradition, Mr. Wiles Bless Your Heart!
I'm a sole proprietor. 80% of my work is single-family homes and additions in the DC area. About 1/3 of my work has been stopped with no indication on when it could come back online. Looking for freelance work to pick up the slack.
Apr 1, 20 12:15 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
You might qualify for an "economic injury" SBA loan. A loan isn't super duper but it's probably way better than paying expenses with credit cards or trying to use home equity.
Apr 1, 20 1:51 pm ·
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revolutionary poet
Kurt do what above notes immediately - EIDLA, I submitted but no confirmation yet. It's $10k to cover. What we do is a luxury for home owners and our payments are large versus say the phone bill.
This whole situation sucks and exposes in an instant every governmental shortcoming that has been made in the name of austerity. It lays bare the class divisions in our society, and we will unfortunately have a body count to point to in order to demonstrate this inequality.
We could reasonably get through this with a competent government that cared about its citizens more than corporate profits. But we don't, so we're going to be forced to go through this national trauma and prolonged economic recession in order to maintain our decrepit economic system that only enriches the few.
A few things that would go a long way to flattening the curve:
1) National moratorium on mortgages, rent, and property taxes for the duration of the crisis. The only reason why people will leave their homes in the midst of a global pandemic is because they need to pay for their living situation. Same applies to businesses who need to cover their rents. A moratorium on this removes the single largest expense for every citizen and incentives them to stay home. Today is April 1. How many people of the 3 million recently unemployed missed their rent payments today? How many of them will come out the other side of this crisis with 3 to 4 months of back-rent that they are unable to pay? As soon as the health crisis ends, the economic crisis will begin.
2) Monthly payments to each citizen to cover food and basic needs. This would be far more effective than a one time payment that is unnecessarily means tested. You can always tax it at the end of the year if it's too much.
3) Medicare for all. Look, this pandemic is going to rip through vulnerable communities and leave a wake of destruction, both physical and financial. How many of those 3 million recently unemployed people just lost access to their healthcare because it was previously tethered to employment? How many of those who uninsured who recover will now be forced to pay a hospital bill that they can not afford because they have no income and no insurance? Those people now unemployed, uninsured, and now housing insecure. They are the ones most likely to get infection as they are forced to find income during a plague when nobody is hiring. How many hospitals have been shuttered this decade alone because they are not deemed profitable? There are major US cities that don't have a public hospital because they were sold off as assets for cash strapped municipalities.
4) Nationalize key industries, even if only temporarily. This pandemic has very clearly shown that are 40 year drift toward hyper capitalist privatization has thoroughly hollowed out the infrastructure needed to keep our society functioning. We are going to learn that the federal government has been forcing states to bid against one another to drive up the price of necessary medical equipment and personal protective equipment as well as using agencies such as FEMA to outbid state governments to funnel equipment to party loyalists and agencies such as ICE (this should be an outrage that forces a regime change, but we'll be so disoriented from this ordeal that it will go largely unnoticed.) Even energy and telecommunication industries should be democratized, as it is now apparent that they are now essential infrastructure items needed to maintain any semblance of our economy. Instead of having companies foot the bill for these items, it will be offloaded onto the backs of their workers. A negative outcome of this pandemic will be the "uber-ization" of the private sector, where companies learn to cut costs by having their workers pay for most of the key overhead needed to run a business.
5) Immediately release all non-violent offenders in prisons and ICE concentration camps. An outbreak of a deadly infectious disease in these closed quarters will deadly. And if we honestly and soberly assess the communities who are targeted to fill these detention centers, then the question must be asked: Will this be a genocide? It's important to remember that Anne Frank did not die in the gas chambers. She died along with 17,000 other prisoners from a typhus outbreak.
6) Shelter for the homeless. Similar to above, but without a guarantee to housing, the people most likely to die in the streets will be the poor, the mentally unstable, and those with addiction or victims of domestic abuse.
But we won't do any of these things. Instead we'll do what we always do: Infuse the markets with liquidity and bail out industries with no strings attached (looking at you, Mnuchin) even as those same industries hemorrhage their workforce. And the result will be more and more people thrust into poverty and economic insecurity, with their entire existence dependent on their ability to provide productive value to a new boss.
So let's add these up and guess who will be most targeted by this pandemic: The poor, the elderly, minorities, the homeless. In short, those who have been deemed economically un-productive.
And why? Why neglect to address the items above? Because to actually solve these issues, the state would have to admit that our current economic model is ineffective by design. That it always has been. Solving these issues would spread the idea that collective ownership of production of necessary industries is not only feasible, but morally responsible. But instead we are left with a false choice where we try to balance when it is okay to re-open the market vs an acceptable body count. And if at least 200,000 people have to die in order to maintain this system of extreme privatization followed by a deep and prolonged recession where more and more people are thrown into the streets, then that is what the government is going to do. Because fuck you.
1918 v now shouldn't be compared - we are an advanced, wealthy society and we should have predicted/prevented this globally - I think @newguy's main point is systematic resilience for a caring and loving society with human rights at the - what is the point of wealth if it is as the cost of society?
seriously people? the death counts are much lower than 1918 for the same exact reason our life expectancy is much higher - our healthcare systems are light years ahead of that time.
that said, if we overwhelm that system to the point where we can't treat people, those numbers are going to skyrocket.
the people who think that things are working well must be benefiting from their relative security, unable to empathize with the millions who are suffering from the incompetence of a government that has been fracturing and deteriorating for decades. also- how can you draw any conclusions from this current pandemic? we have 0 idea how many deaths there will be, how many waves there will be, etc.. just because the death rate is currently better than before doesn't mean we can't point to the physical and economic suffering (which is likely to be unprecedented since the great depression)
Apr 2, 20 10:54 am ·
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Chad Miller's comment has been hidden
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Chad Miller
The CDC is expecting between 100,000 and 250,000 deaths from this pandemic. BTW - what a huge fucking range!
It’s going to get a lot worse, but from what I’ve read, 10 undetected probably mild or asymptotic cases to every 1 confirmed. The death rate is probably a lot lower, and we are probably closer to a herd immunity than we think.
Back to lay-off talk: 20-person firm, Midwest, just put entire staff including partners on a 32 hour week. I honestly think it’s a smart move and we will ride it out. Hang in there everyone.
The Midwest isn't being hit as hard as the coasts, I imagine?
Apr 2, 20 4:51 pm ·
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curtkram
it took a few days longer for the virus to get to us in the midwest. we had a chance to see what was happening in washington and how they responded, so our local governments were in a better position to prepare. i think that helped.
word from our honchos is that the loans from the fed's will pay everyone's salary for 2 months, and will become grants if all stipulations are followed. Hopefully that works out as planned.
Nurse wife is being sent to bedside care next week, hasn't done patient care in 10 years. We're told that anyone who refuses will see immediate termination. Nor are nurses allowed to wear their own PPE if the hospital cannot supply it. (they can't)
I suspect there are some overzealous HR folks involved. I'm certain that they will love dealing with a nurses union this time next year.
Ridiculous. My younger sister is a nurse too. She didn’t have a proper mask for over 2 weeks. She has a heart condition and just got over viral meningitis. She said “this is my duty, I’m a nurse”. Unbelievably brave. Best of luck to your wife!
These life savers are the heroes of this whole thing. Wonder if they'll allow them to board planes first etc. when this thing is over. If anything this will hopefully raise the care giving jobs to the status they deserve. "The measure of a civilization is how it treats its weakest members." Hats off to your sister jla-x.
A real challenge of the PPP is going to be how the banks are going to handle the huge wave of applications from borrowers. I also think the $350 billion is going to be exhausted pretty quickly.
Few days ago, our firm laid off around 15% 30+ people from our 3 offices across the east coast. Pay cuts starting around 5-10%. But have to be happy we're still working. One of my staff was about to get the boot but I had to find work for him to do to get his 40hrs/wk. We're based in Central Fl
We are WFH and are to use the 80 new hours on our time sheets provided by the fed govt to cover any slack work. Given the current pace, that should cover all employees through the end of summer without furlough or layoffs.
we’ve fully converted to WFH and had an office wide video meeting yesterday. No loss of production or billable time so things are looking as good as they can be. Got a few new projects on the books too.
Hearing about lots of layoffs in NYC. Was laid off myself March 20 with 10 others after our first week of WFH out of 80ish person firm. Was there +5 years, associate. Laid off over the phone, no contact from bosses, 2 weeks severance, zero effort at empathy. Is this crisis bringing out the worst in others’ former (or current) employers?
Apr 4, 20 11:42 pm ·
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OneLostArchitect
My buddy got laid off over a text message...
Apr 5, 20 9:46 am ·
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sparkyy
I'm also in NYC; furloughed for about a month now. Midsize firm mostly education, residential, & corporate interiors. Seems like construction work within the city is stopping, deemed non-essential? Friends who work in global/larger firms still seem busy. Anyone else have any input on what's going on here?
Apr 5, 20 9:53 am ·
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square.
i'm in nyc as well. hearing that firms that are in luxury, private residential, and commercial (obviously) are laying off, where as firms that are in affordable/public housing (state/city funding) are decently weathering the storm (these projects have been deemed essential).
Sorry for everyone that has been laid off from their job or been directly affected. It is probably just a matter of time before I too am confronted with such. Hopefully job losses will be temporary for most and we will resume our positions or find new jobs. The conditions underlying this slowdown are very unique. The economy may pick back up as quickly as it came to a halt.
COVID-19 Lay-off Thread
Got a very ominous email from the boss man today. We shall see what the next few weeks bring.
Just announced company wide furlough.
Mid-size Landscape firm in NorCal.
Shitty deal. Sorry to hear that.
Furlough as in time and pay cuts?
32 hour work week
oh yes, we been on that deal for 2 weeks now here in SoCal. Sucks.
I’ve heard of more pay cuts at multiple firms in the Chicago area this week. Some varying depending on your title, others flat cuts.
100+ mainly at the moment, haven’t heard any of the smaller ones doing similar yet.
I was doing the plan check corrections and was just about the get the drawings approved by the LADBS for a small ground up hillside house, but the client terminated the project. I can't blame them either. The future is very uncertain at the moment. I am sad because it was gem of a house, but hey, people are fighting for their livelihood.
Good thing I am one person show and have a teaching job for the foreseeable future.
My sympathies for all my architecture colleagues here and elsewhere. Stay healthy and never lose your love for architecture!
This downturn will only last as long as the virus keeps people from working. Its wasn't a market based crash, it was because the economy is physically frozen since many people physically can't work. The virus wont kill as many people as the news will lead you to believe, and the downturn wont be as bad as people think, this extreme market drop will be followed by just as extreme of a recovery once things start running back to normal. If it were a pop in a housing/real estate valuations, architects would be screwed, like they were in the GFC, but this isn't the case. Just hold on tight, ride the wave. Its gonna come and then go and people will forget it was even a thing.
I'll inclined to agree. The only caveat is i think we will be subject to endless debate over the response and who is at fault until November. Markets abhor uncertainty, which we won't have for awhile
on the upside, although the bank wouldn't give me more money to keep my firm up and running they are not asking me to pay for 30 days...I'm in a FEMA crisis zone.
I am really hoping the small business loans in the stimulus package will address people's cash flow issues. The regular SBA disaster loans available today don't appear to be something my firm would immediately qualify for or receive in a timely manner.
The NYC Department of Design and Construction has halted all projects: Design though Construction Administration. This is HUGE for NYC architects..
to be clear those are city contracts. not private business contracts.
of course. For my office it is HUGE
why would they stop design?
either or both of these: a) make sure firms are truly on lockdown and associated business activity is minimized and b) to save money on design fees because of tax revenue losses and costs of crisis response.
Wait business activity has to stop even if you are working at home? Whaaaat?
Even in full WFH mode, you are probably still causing some number of trips by delivery people, etc. I had to go out to mail hard copies of a contract and we are continue to have product submittals and samples coming and going.
Does this include DPR projects?
So with falling case numbers why did Washington get even stricter and stop construction? Not sure how much logic is forcing this decisions besides complete hysteria. Supposedly the reason you cant go surfing in California is becuase some one might drool in the water....I can guarantee I'm not going to get sick from someone's spit in the ocean sitting 40' from me
The parking lots and the shoulders and the people shitting in the bushes because the toilets are locked is a problem.
The surfing would have more to do with eliminating the possibility of unnecessary search and rescue operations happening during the crisis. Not actual transmission.
Oh you mean like the multiple helicopter flybys they are doing and lifeguard patrols to make sure no ones in the hidden coves right now vs. the 1 search and rescue that happens a year?
Pro-tip: Trust epidemiologists' expertise as much as you wish your clients trusted yours.
I trust the experts until they FUCK WITH MY PASSIONS. (Not really, I'm currently really pissed off at all of the irresponsible fuckwads overwhelming the climbing areas)
Epidemiologists want to completely squash this at all costs necessary. Most architects want to make every cafe the Taj Mahal. I'm pointing out scenarios that seem as though we are being driven by hysteria and not a well rounded discussion with all stakeholders. Original question is why are they moving to shut down construction at great economic and individual pain when cases are slowing in Washington. Surfing was just an example. Close parking lots to reduce crowds, totally get it. Utilizing mass police, air support and lifeguard boat resources to patrol every inch of Sam Diego coastline even while the CDC says there is no evidence of transmission in water...crazy.
hysteria? In the age of Trump? Who would have ever seen this coming?
What's the ideal number of people who will be allowed to die so the construction industry can remain open?
"The dam is working, time to tear it down" is essentially what you're saying.
The numbers show the damn was working before construction is halted. Washington and Itally closed construction this week. Both were experiencing case reductions. My argument is actually the dam is working, why do you need to build it higher and drown more communities in the event of a 1000 yr flood?
Because they want to completely halt the spread? US overall has more cases than China now, and considering don't have great healthcare... >.>
*waits for the per capita rebuttal*
What's the ideal type of economic collapse we are willing to suffer in order to halt the spread, thought we were just flattening the curve btw. Puerto Rico, Greece, Venezuela or full on Nigeria? Does that work Sneaky?
Not sure why you singled me out. I'm leaving the policy making to the experts. Armchair discussions are all well and good, but when someone like Donald J. Trump tells me it's safe, I tell him the same thing I tell a guy at the bar giving me life advice.
the numbers don't show the dam is working -- the numbers are unfortunately an empty statistic until testing is more widely spread
Balkins is Dr. Fauci? Dude get off Archinect!
when a fire is 60% contained, do you say the firefighting effort is working and send the fire department home to minimize further water damage?
Nope, read dam response. But also you'd definitely reduce resources and divide and conquer if you noticed the fire was spreading to another critical location that needed help.
dude, is the fire coronavirus or the economic downturn?
Said from the beginning, we need a total 30 day national lockdown. All bills and everything should be frozen. That would make this much faster to get over.
And less painful for businesses
What happens after Jlax? when you open back up and you still have no immunity in the population but spread still happening around the world?
Hi all..It has been too long since I actually posted something here in the Forum! Anywho, anecdotally...my wife and the other "newest" employee (both yr-ish +) at their small (8-10 person) design firm, got let go in last 24hrs. As I understand it everyone else is taking a reduction in hours and work is shifting. On the other-hand, there have been postings on the Jobs boards this month by some local/regional firms, so who knows?! One bright spot, they are paying out sick/vacation days and its on good terms/not personal.
Sorry to read this Nam. Hope she finds something quickly.
Thanks EA!
None of our projects are on hold as of yet! Been keeping everyone busy and will probably bring some people on board! It's scary as fuck though. I told my accountant to bill everything asap and hope we get paid.
https://www.sba.gov/funding-pr...
my understanding is if you keep people on it's a grant, if not it's a loan, looking into it.
but government moves slower than private business so not sure the alignment happens here. i.e. keeping on people with cash funds while applying for loans.
I've been working as much as I can around university and mostly that's dried up now (I was mostly doing photography and surveying work as it was easy to fit round uni work but its pretty hard to do during a pandemic) after I...work out how to afford rent and food for the rest of this degree though I'm mostly worried about what on earth I should do post-graduation.
Graduating MArch in the UK and presumably not going to get a job in the industry any time soon. Once I'm not working on final portfolios, dissertations and such I can do something that will at least earn money, ideally something relevant but idk what. If not will be something like supermarket work and I should probably use the time to learn something useful outside of that (get better at revit maybe?)
I'm in London and the property market is weird here now, is it the same elsewhere? sales of housing has practically halted, rents are down and airbnb places are being put onto the regular rental market. I don't know if it'll have a lasting effect or n effect on architecture profession but its some weird stuff
A little less then half our production staff was laid off Friday (5 of 12)
Yay, I'm graduating with a BS Arch this semester! It's getting real tired to feel so absurdly hopeless and vulnerable. I should get used to it.
Lost a few CAD interviews in construction because of the virus. I know I won't get architecture interviews. But if I want some roof over my head, I can go flip burgers and pray someone will make me a CAD jockey. Woo, 5 years of school and mental degradation for the glorious right to beg for CAD work. Tbf, I like CAD, but the emotional stress of it all has been...so much. Too much.
Should I...even bother with the built environment? Damn I love it, damn I'd like to become a builder, but at this rate, why should the younger guys even bother with dreaming buildings?
I guess...I've settled knowing that architecture doesn't bring tangible value, and we have to convince others we have ANY value. But, I...haven't processed that yet. That architecture is an art, equally unstable and fueled by misery. And we're taught to treat it like a career.
Yeah, no, sorry, I'm just...tired of being vulnerable, but being unable to switch yet. Is hopelessness an architect's rite of passage? Does it ever get better?
Daniel: I taught a Professional Practice course in 2009-10. Two years of facing my about-to-graduate students and saying “This is how practice works, but you’re graduating into an economy with zero job opportunities.” What I focused on was that this *is* a profession that follows the economy, but your schooling has given you a set of creative skills that *can* be applied to other fields, too. Ten years later a lot of those students are doing other things but most of them are architects - they weathered the recession in bartending while volunteering for non-profits related to the built world (networking), or they worked in construction, or they designed decks or basement remodels for their dad’s dentist’s sister, or lots of other things tangentially related to the “profession.”
Which is all to say: YES it gets better, then it gets bad again, then it gets awesome, then it kicks you in the teeth again....but honestly what profession *doesn't* have those ups and downs? None.
Donna - maybe that's a good request for a next Sessions podcast, about your experiences teaching during the recession and lessons learned from that time. I graduated smack into the worst depths of the recession (especially in Canada, where everything lagged a bit longer) and basically had to shuffle between jobs in some of the most geographically remote parts of the country. That was the only way to stay in the industry. I'd love to hear a podcast of your thoughts as we drop into what might be another one.
Donna, to add some noise to the discussion (and I second Bench's podcast point), I had a prof-practice prof during my M.Arch (and another during undergrad) who echoed what you're saying. It definitively changed my understanding and expectations coming into the working world mid 09.
Mid size firm in the Toronto area. Production staff layoffs and pay cuts across the board. Still expected to maintain full work week (40+ hrs) with the pay cut. As of right now, project work has only been minimally impacted.
Are other folks maintaining full time work with pay cuts as well?
Time to find a better office.
Yeah - I hear it's a really hot job market
Wow, that is absurd. If you can, tell them to fuck off. If not, my condolences. Any chance you can name and shame?
Does it start with a G?
Why are there pay cuts if project work was minimally impacted?
We haven't been given much reason yet other than COVID... and sorry, don't feel comfortable giving the name of the office
Yeah that's nonsense. Start looking elsewhere. Not every firm is in a downturn, believe it or not.
Curious about office name too... we have contract and labour laws here that likely are getting trampled. Anonla, what's the office's main area of work ?
Same situation and city - hospitality focused.
Thanks for starting this new thread.
Still believe this is not because of China and their delayed response to the crisis created by their wet markets?
they mean Communist China, there fixed it.
This article gives a reasonable timeline of events. I first heard about the novel coronavirus - before the term COVID-19 had even been coined to name the illness - in the middle of January. The science podcast I listen to religiously, Skeptics Guide to the Universe, first reported on it 25 January, and I had heard of it previous to that (I remember looking forward to hearing what the skeptics would report). The first US case of it was reported 20 January. *Anyone who was paying attention* knew that there were serious risks by 1 February, and what did our country do to prepare during the month of February? Next to nothing. It's not China's fault that we are totally unprepared, it's ours.
https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-pandemic-timeline-history-major-events-2020-3
again not China /\, Communist China. They shut the first whistle blower up, couldn't contain the virus, and caused a pandemic. Blame the communists is fair and not racist.
Ugh! With the claim of racism, any constructive conversation stops.
Only if you're a racist cunt.
Yep.
What are we going to call Chinese food if that is considered racist now?
delicious
To my knowledge, Chinese take-out has never lead to groups of people being beaten, spat on, yelled at, or insulted. Fear and anxiety can naturally lead to blaming others. In this case, assigning blame will not lead to our survival. In fact, science has proven that our immune systems are enhanced by compassion and community--and damaged by contempt.
Exactly, gibbost. One Lost, please stop being intentionally obtuse.
If the Chinese people called it the 'Wuhan virus' they would be silenced and likely hauled away. That pretty much tells you all you need to know about the Chinese government. Perhaps we should call it the 'Chinese Communist Party' virus ?
keep talking, it's good to know who the bigots are, no matter the stripe or degree
I never called it the Chinese Virus here folks... I'm simply asking the question... what do we call Chinese food now?
I mean, if you're in China you'd probably just call it "food" ...
Questions don't get to exist in a vacuum just because you're on the wrong side of the obvious context.
Also, since people seem to have a lot more downtime lately, here's a great book that covers a lot of the institutional racism that birthed and influenced "Chinese Food" in the US. https://www.amazon.com/Chop-Suey-Cultural-History-Chinese/dp/0195331079
The adjective obtuse is good for describing someone slow on the uptake: "Don't be so obtuse: get with the program!" The adjective obtuse literally means "rounded" or "blunt," but when it's used for a person, it means "not quick or alert in perception" — in other words, not the sharpest tool in the shed.
how’s everyone liking their 30 day free trial of socialism?
business as usual here, but at home instead. I am drinking about twice as much coffee... 5th, 6th cup? I guess I should stop making full pots when I don't have coworkers present to help with the consumption.
I wish I still had dogs.
Did you eat them? I can't be that bad.
I had to let them go after "the incident".
Still feels extremely capitalist, so far. Not sure what you're on about.
jla-x learn the definitions of socialism and democratic socialism. Until then shut the fuck up you moron.
Justin Turdo is promising me money!!! GIVE ME MY MONEY!!!
it'll come.
Gee, I was thinking this was kleptocratic-libertarianism.
No silly. This is what Democratic socialism under a shitty democratically elected regime/s feels like. Lol.
But for real, cash those 1200$ checks and see how long the government can support us without private industry running.
HAH! so printing 2 trillion dollars to save the sorry asses of badly managed corporations and their fat ceo's is not socialism? I knew there was a reason I had ignored you for so long.
Socialism is the labor-owned means of production.
jlax, when did you live in a DemSoc country, cause this ain't it; this is Post-Capitalism, Disaster Capitalism.
This is socialism commercial break disaster mitigation
Capitalism is the thing we are all missing rn.
sure jan, it's easy to shift responsibility when things go bad, wouldn't hire you for a job ever.
Nice to see we're still pretending "Capitalism" and "Socialism" are two mutually exclusive and opposite sides of a coin despite my attempts to point out the absolute absurdity of this way of thinking in basically every thread it's mentioned.
qoutable "Nice to see we're still pretending "Capitalism" and "Socialism" are two mutually exclusive and opposite sides of a coin despite my attempts to point out the absolute absurdity of this way of thinking in basically every thread it's mentioned. "
how is capitalism a thing we're missing? people aren't going to work because the government shut down a lot of businesses to slow the spread of this virus. if the government didn't do that, more people would be getting sick. as it is, i can get food from a bar and have it delivered to my house with no contact. how is that not capitalism?
The last few entrys in this thread remind me of the Canadian member of the World Health Organization who hung up on a reporter who asked about Tiawan's response to the pandemic. Why? Because China considers Tiawan to be part of the Chinese mainland and nobody is allowed to piss off the Chinese leaders, apparently.
"A senior advisor to the World Health Organization who had returned from China [Bruce Alyward] appared to hang up on a journalist who asked about Taiwan’s response to the coronavirus pandemic, and then did not answer further questions because they had “already talked about China”."
you're reading too much into this. Loosen the tin foil hat a little.
I actually agree with Volunteer here. The world is extremely touchy when it comes to Taiwan, for exactly the reasons described.
China and the WHO are buddies.
^ Technically not wrong but oversimplified beyond the point of usefulness.
"Taiwan’s government has said that keeping it out of the WHO during the outbreak amounts to playing politics with Taiwanese lives, even as the island has won plaudits for keeping its case toll so comparatively low thanks to early detection and control methods." Reuters
Company meeting just announced firm-wide meeting tomorrow....bracing for pay cuts. A couple of our large projects in CDs have gone on hold and ones that were supposed to start are also on hold.
Sigh.
It’s cute to see white people talk about racism, but yes I’m Asian too and saying it like it is. China (and not your neighborhood Chinese restaurant) should be held accountable. Let’s talk when you are out of your jobs
This isn't cute, and you're naive to think that people aren't taking this out on the Chinese race. https://www.adl.org/blog/reports-of-anti-asian-assaults-harassment-and-hate-crimes-rise-as-coronavirus-spreads
So, can’t criticize the Chinese communist party because some assholes are being mean to Chinese people? That’s pretty ridiculous. I think the Chinese regime has gone under the radar for years for their terrible human rights abuses, authoritarianism, etc...all because we like cheap stuff. We Americans were complicit. Now, we see the consequences of their suppression of truth. How many journalists and doctors disappeared who were tying to get the truth out early on?
The people of China, and the Chinese people who live outside of China have absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. The Chinese authoritarian state is very secretive and oppressive. Their secretive nature likely is to blame for this thing getting out of control early on. They tried to hide it, and let people move around freely for at least a month before it became obvious.
And the markets are what they are. It’s not the first time a pandemic started in these conditions. Chinese culture is not to blame, but it certainly is responsible for it. Likewise, Italian culture is likely why deaths are so high. Not about right or wrong, from a moral standpoint, but definitely can say whether a cultural practice is dangerous or not.
Of course you can blame the Chinese government if that's how you want to spend your energy, you can do whatever you want. You can also be an idiot and remain blissfully ignorant that a lot of stupid racist people in this country use that criticism to fuel and justify their racist attacks.
I’m not going to curb the truth because some fat dummy from Alabama posts something racist on FB. That’s completely silly If someone is too stupid to differentiate between the Chinese state, and an everyday Chinese person living in California, then that’s their mental disease.
Keep up the brave work of pointing fingers.
The corruption of local party apparatchik caused a lot of this mess, it's generally understood that local party leaders are corrupt. Sound familiar? Additionally, what's been reported recently is negative impacts of Capitalism and its relationship to factory farming in China, as it directly impacts the poorest in China, and their ability to eat.
"I’m not going to curb the truth because some fat dummy from Alabama posts something racist on FB." I'd have more confidence in this if your "truth" wasn't displaying a somewhat facile knowledge of Chinese government, politics, & history. The problem with painting with such a broad brush is that, in their generalization, these statements can give cover to more xenophobic and racist sentiment.
Perhaps it's worth investing some of your recently mandated free time in a good book or two on China.
I agree. This is no time for political correctness. China actions have been questionable for years. Now the world knows.
I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again - the magnitude of this pandemic has laid bare the Achilles' Heel of authoritarianism - in both China and the US (and elswhere). Good news for the boss is rewarded, bad news for the boss is punished. The incentive, then, is to hide bad reality in favor of good fiction. This is how Mao's famine started, and it's how COVID got a foothold in China, and later the US.
And just look up how the WHO responded to questions regarding Taiwan, the number of urns for the dead, cell phone use compared to the number if deceased they are reporting. Thats a problem.
in case you're looking to blame anyone, blame humans. when human's expand into former ecologies they start to mix with these ecologies and whence comes virus's that we were not familiar with prior.
B3, China has been benefiting from US capitalism and US has been benefiting from Chinese communism for years. It’s a relationship that allows us to outsource all the things we want to do but aren’t allowed to do.
Wow, what a spirited discussion. Masters of Archinect, you really did gloss over the face that I am Asian too, didn't you? Other countries in Asia are also sick and tired of China's bulllshit authoritarian regime and the effect of their policies seeping over to their neighbors. I am also sure that most of the people defending China here on this forum have indeed never been there or do not intend to. (I have, several times)
Not sure why we need to be so PC about a country that has effectively indulged in bioterrorism and managed to spread it around with their inaction.
Again, this is not about Asian or Chinese people in general, but their GOVERNMENT. Speaking of which, not sure if any of you guys heard that some wildlife markets are back in full swing, as China wakes up from COVID-19. Regulation, my foot.
Cool, you're Asian. That's neat. Doesn't inoculate you from accusations of ignorance and bigotry, though.
any sole proprietors apply for unemployment? how'd it go?
This thread is like halfway social media dumbasses and halfway really smart people. It's quite interesting.
Anyway, the governments has some SBA stuff (500 or less employees) that may help you keep staff on, it's a great deal and its slow, but if your firm has the cash reserve for 2 months+ operations they could keep everyone on at a very small loss, if at all if you have a great accountant.
This post serves no practical purpose unless you're going to start naming people in each camp.
read paragraph 2, no need to get emotional ;) and I don't name people, this is the internet, it's not real. even if you uses your real name.
Then use your real name chris you coward.
que? do you even read what write?
Dibs on being one of the smart ones.
yes tduds and you have clearly read the literature. Ms. Bella, back in the day on archinect you could make-up your name in a thread which was then somewhat contextual, that's how I view all this. this is the internet, its words, thoughts, characters, shit that flies together to make you think or not think (which appears to be the current trend).
I'm realizing now my reply probably came off as me being annoyed ... my bad. It was intended to be humorous with regard to paragraph 1. Dunning-Kruger would indicate that the majority probably thinks they're one of the smart ones.
tone, never quite expressed well on the internet either, which makes conversations interesting. There is a method on gauging intelligence among intelligent people though...
I don't smart enough to associate with smart ones. I guess i'm in the dumb camp. With that said, we're 2 weeks into our 3weeks "everyone still gets paid even if you can't work" experiment. I expect an update in a few days.
everyone grab a 20 sided dice and roll. if you get above 15 you get to get to be one of the smart ones
Can we get back to lay-off/job security issues please? We got news today that construction unknowns mean that what had been a two-year phased project is now planned for four years (academic sector). Which means the same amount of work up front, but a longer payment timeline.
We've had a bunch of projects go on hold (as far as I know nothing out-right cancelled yet, just paused) but for now a majority of projects - including my own - are marching ahead.
Looking at some salary cuts and a freeze on any discretionary spending, but for the moment no layoffs (for the moment). Fingers crossed this is a shorter disruption than the last one.
Holds are almost entirely hospitality related.
If you just got laid off, I am very, very sorry. I am in an East coast based 100 person firm- have had about 30% of our projects go on pause. Had a long meeting today going through "The List" which sucked and I cried afterward. Whole firm will have payroll reductions, we will furlough or lay off 10%-15% of staff on April 1.
In 2008, I was afraid for my job - I was only 2 years out of school and cheap labor so made it through luckily, now I am in "management" and I see every name on that list as a person who is supporting a family or who is sending money home to help their folks and pay their school loans.
I also talk to my relatives and friends who work in healthcare as doctors, nurses, EMTs and we should ALL be worried about this virus. Please do everything you can to stay healthy, well and take care of each other-
This is a good post, dominiond. Thank you for sharing how your perspective developed over the last 20 years. Hang in there.
We've apparently had a few clients reach out to "pause" their projects as well. Leaders were very intentional to indicate this is not on hold, and not cancelled. Hasn't really affected my work yet.
I don't think anyone is getting laid off at my office yet. We've had a good first of the year so far so we might have a bit of a buffer before we really need to trim some fat. We are still submitting for RFPs and getting awarded work as recently as Friday.
I think the biggest unknown for us is when we can get back to construction on those non-essential projects where it has been forced to stop by state government order. A lot of our in construction work is allowed to proceed though so staff has mostly been able to shuffle around to keep everyone busy and billable.
what's the difference between "pause" and "on hold?"
I would assume "pause" means - we were in the middle of finishing this wtf versus "hold" - meaning we are low on funds and will rdirect soon.
They way I'm choosing to look at it, because there hasn't been any sort of definition offered by the leadership, is that a pause is a short-term temporary thing, while a hold might be longer-term. I'm pausing my netflix show to get a drink from the fridge, but I'm holding off on finishing that netflix series until I have more time to devote to it.
Any small firms start any SBA applications specifically the Paycheck Protection Program?
We were on a conference call today with an SBA director. They said the particular terms and application process for the paycheck protection program would be coming out later this week.
The beginning of the podcast gives a really good and accessible summary of the big picture points of how the CARES Act and Coronavirus Relief bill pertains to individuals and families (gig workers, 1099, how to borrow from your 401K, etc...)
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/broken-brain-with-dhru-purohit/id1381257272#episodeGuid=5e8126d56fb4790c2dea264a
thank you for this.
for NYC (as new market if you're not already in it)
DOB Guidance Document on Enforcement of Essential vs. Nonessential Construction.
i currently work for a large, global firm with sizeable office in NYC. we all just found out that everyone is receiving pay cuts starting april 1st. layoffs haven't been announced but i'm almost certain that this is just the beginning.
good luck all.
I've decided to keep all of my firm's staff and roll the dice on the whole Payroll Protection Program thing. We haven't had any jobs cancelled or paused yet, but only about 1/3 of the clients are bothering to pay their invoices within 30 days, but it's been that way since well before COVID-19.
Good. I was just reviewing the terms of the PPP and they seem rather favorable. 2 months of payroll + 25%, most of which can be "forgiven". Sound like an awesome deal.
I'm counting on the "forgiven" part, more business debt that has to somehow be paid back with interest on the other side of all this isn't going to be terribly helpful in the big picture.
My husband's business is doing the same, thisisnotmyname, and the non-profit I manage is as well.
yeah, not really looking to add debt at this point, but the PPP could help us survive the covid-peak (I have zero billable atm & my partner has +/-40 hrs)
well, we've had 40% of our work go on "hold" - most of that being donor driven non-profit/private sector institutional work. none were in construction - all of our work underway is continuing. 2 layoffs. worst day of my work life.
we are having to take a lot harder look at which trees we are shaking at the moment. i have heard of some developer work/rfp's continuing to move forward but as someone noted above, those type clients are going to have a lot more leverage in terms of pricing/payment right now.
(and yes, we know about the sba PPP programs - part of the issue is some of that work likely won't come back at all; some will come back next year; some might get started again this fall. a lot depends on how people's portfolio's look and how generous/bullish they're feeling. so, based on that, doing a short term bridge loan that can be forgiven might - in our case - buy a little time but not enough.)
As far as I have read, the PPP loan is to ensure that you keep your staff employed. Indeed, if one lays of staff after taking the loan, the loan cannot be forgiven. So, regardless of whether projects come back or not, would be wise (and kind) to take the loan and keep the staff around for if and when this turns around...
SBA will forgive loans if all employees are kept on the payroll for eight weeks and the money is used for payroll, rent, mortgage interest, or utilities. The Paycheck Protection Program will be available through June 30, 2020.
that's from the SBA website. in our case, the period of uncertainty is really closer to 6 months.
Exactly. The idea is to buy employers some time for the next 2 months and avoid layoffs right now. If nothing else, I can have staff people spend the 2 months calling our deadbeat sh*tbag clients every 4 hours to see when they are going to pay their delinquent invoices.
Gregory, I'm genuinely sorry you have to make some tough decisions not only affecting your business and livelihood, but those of your employees as well. I appreciate your candor and point of view as an employer on the forum. I'm also genuinely curious, if you care to elaborate, on why you wouldn't be able to keep your staff on for the next 8 weeks by taking the PPP loan and reassessing in 2 months' time?
Also from the SBA website (emphasis mine), "The loan will be fully forgiven if the funds are used for payroll costs, interest on mortgages, rent, and utilities (due to likely high subscription, at least 75% of the forgiven amount must have been used for payroll). Loan payments will also be deferred for six months. No collateral or personal guarantees are required. Neither the government nor lenders will charge small businesses any fees."
I just got an email from my city government saying PPP will cover "retaining current workers and rehiring laid off workers". That's good news if correct (everybody should always go directly to the SBA for definitive info on SBA programs).
Know also that SBA works strictly on a first-come, first-served basis. Any consultant or whatnot that wants to charge you a fee to expedite your loan is a scammer...
Wrong, the SBA isnt first come, first serve. The application starts on April the 3rd, and should be done in the first few days, if only to avoid backlogs.
https://www.journalofaccountan...
You are suggesting that the applications will not be processed in the order they are received by SBA? Please explain?
@everydayarchitect - we have looked. we don't believe we meet all the qualifications.
A similar PPP programme was announced on 20 March in UK - Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme paying furlough staff 80% up to £2500 per month. Small business in hospitality can apply for £25,000 grant. Extended the UK programme to include self-employed on 26th. Also announced mortgage holiday for 3 months.
US is really behind the ball supporting working people. I am so pleased I live in a country with the National Health System -
So are we all hoping for a medicare to all approach to health care?
While the US will pay for the 'test' if you take the test at an emergency room expect to pay $2k - and don't even think of the cost if you end up hospitalized in an ICU for 30 days or more.
The pandemic demonstrates how fragile our systems are - sad days ahead.
Wimbledon just canceled!
I am pleased you live in the UK also:
“Doctors across the frontlines are extremely concerned about the lack of personal protective equipment [PPE]. Many have told us they have tried to raise concerns through the proper channels but have been warned against taking these concerns further,” the president of the Doctors’ Association UK (DAUK), Dr Samantha Batt Rawden, told The Guardian.
“At this time when we desperately need every single doctor on the frontline, some have had their careers threatened, and at least two doctors have been sent home from work. This is unacceptable. Doctors have a moral duty to make their concerns regarding Covid-19 public if these cannot be resolved locally,” Rawden went on to say.
According to the DAUK, one doctor who raised concern about the lack of medical masks was told by hospital management that: “If we hear of these concerns going outside these four walls your career and your position here will be untenable.”
And this is different to the US???
volunteer is only selecting negative information (what country isn't short on medical supplies??), conveniently ignoring the fact that as you mentioned your ER covid test will cost you a cool 2k.. but luckily we can all use our one time stimulus money to cover 60% of the cost! no one can claim the US has done anything other than a bare minimum, patchwork response to this disaster. but we shouldn't expect anything less... rugged individualism is our way of life
it's what everyone does right? no one is good at being open and honest when the news is bad https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/hospitals-tell-doctors-they-ll-be-fired-if-they-talk-to-press
This must be one of Volunteer's sources.
I get my NHS and my US Stimulus Check signed by Trump is in the mail -
UKs response was slow to start and admittedly the Tories (Conservatives) have put in austerity measures for 10+ years resulting in big shortages in nurse/doctors.
2 weeks ago NHS wrote and texted 1.5 Million venerable people ordering them to shelter in place for 12 weeks - can not go outside. All UK has a stay at home order so this 'sheltering' is a higher level. This is supported by a network of community support(750,00 people signed up) delivering food and medicine with the UK government delivering weekly food/care packages to home. The list of 1.5 Mil included cancer patients with a particular focus on blood cancers, folks who received transplants not just over 70-year-olds. Nationalised public health allows you to take this type of action. Protecting the most venerable is a clear strategy to keep the hospitalization low.
Additionally, UK government asked all local authorities to put all homeless members of society in housing/hotels for the near future - next 3 months. Again, housing the homeless will keep them out of hospitals.
NS, that's hilarious. The God that can save you from all your sins wouldn't be able to forgive you if you ate an Impossible Whopper. He created the heavens and the earth, but can't figure out this DNA thing. He's just sitting up there thinking, crap ... the devil got me this time.
Also, why does this guy think that God won't save other species? In 1989 I learned that all dogs go to heaven.
Do Lucifarians also smoke pot?
It’s the Devil’s grass, Donna. Don’t be tempted by Satan.
I really don't want to ruin this thread (so just a link) but this is the music Lucifarians listen to....Sleep - Dopesmoker
There is always someone who is choosing to have more fun than you, and for some that just frost their cookies, or gets their guff, or some other christian way of cursing. In the Southern tradition, Mr. Wiles Bless Your Heart!
I'm a sole proprietor. 80% of my work is single-family homes and additions in the DC area. About 1/3 of my work has been stopped with no indication on when it could come back online. Looking for freelance work to pick up the slack.
You might qualify for an "economic injury" SBA loan. A loan isn't super duper but it's probably way better than paying expenses with credit cards or trying to use home equity.
Kurt do what above notes immediately - EIDLA, I submitted but no confirmation yet. It's $10k to cover. What we do is a luxury for home owners and our payments are large versus say the phone bill.
This whole situation sucks and exposes in an instant every governmental shortcoming that has been made in the name of austerity. It lays bare the class divisions in our society, and we will unfortunately have a body count to point to in order to demonstrate this inequality.
We could reasonably get through this with a competent government that cared about its citizens more than corporate profits. But we don't, so we're going to be forced to go through this national trauma and prolonged economic recession in order to maintain our decrepit economic system that only enriches the few.
A few things that would go a long way to flattening the curve:
1) National moratorium on mortgages, rent, and property taxes for the duration of the crisis. The only reason why people will leave their homes in the midst of a global pandemic is because they need to pay for their living situation. Same applies to businesses who need to cover their rents. A moratorium on this removes the single largest expense for every citizen and incentives them to stay home. Today is April 1. How many people of the 3 million recently unemployed missed their rent payments today? How many of them will come out the other side of this crisis with 3 to 4 months of back-rent that they are unable to pay? As soon as the health crisis ends, the economic crisis will begin.
2) Monthly payments to each citizen to cover food and basic needs. This would be far more effective than a one time payment that is unnecessarily means tested. You can always tax it at the end of the year if it's too much.
3) Medicare for all. Look, this pandemic is going to rip through vulnerable communities and leave a wake of destruction, both physical and financial. How many of those 3 million recently unemployed people just lost access to their healthcare because it was previously tethered to employment? How many of those who uninsured who recover will now be forced to pay a hospital bill that they can not afford because they have no income and no insurance? Those people now unemployed, uninsured, and now housing insecure. They are the ones most likely to get infection as they are forced to find income during a plague when nobody is hiring. How many hospitals have been shuttered this decade alone because they are not deemed profitable? There are major US cities that don't have a public hospital because they were sold off as assets for cash strapped municipalities.
4) Nationalize key industries, even if only temporarily. This pandemic has very clearly shown that are 40 year drift toward hyper capitalist privatization has thoroughly hollowed out the infrastructure needed to keep our society functioning. We are going to learn that the federal government has been forcing states to bid against one another to drive up the price of necessary medical equipment and personal protective equipment as well as using agencies such as FEMA to outbid state governments to funnel equipment to party loyalists and agencies such as ICE (this should be an outrage that forces a regime change, but we'll be so disoriented from this ordeal that it will go largely unnoticed.) Even energy and telecommunication industries should be democratized, as it is now apparent that they are now essential infrastructure items needed to maintain any semblance of our economy. Instead of having companies foot the bill for these items, it will be offloaded onto the backs of their workers. A negative outcome of this pandemic will be the "uber-ization" of the private sector, where companies learn to cut costs by having their workers pay for most of the key overhead needed to run a business.
5) Immediately release all non-violent offenders in prisons and ICE concentration camps. An outbreak of a deadly infectious disease in these closed quarters will deadly. And if we honestly and soberly assess the communities who are targeted to fill these detention centers, then the question must be asked: Will this be a genocide? It's important to remember that Anne Frank did not die in the gas chambers. She died along with 17,000 other prisoners from a typhus outbreak.
6) Shelter for the homeless. Similar to above, but without a guarantee to housing, the people most likely to die in the streets will be the poor, the mentally unstable, and those with addiction or victims of domestic abuse.
But we won't do any of these things. Instead we'll do what we always do: Infuse the markets with liquidity and bail out industries with no strings attached (looking at you, Mnuchin) even as those same industries hemorrhage their workforce. And the result will be more and more people thrust into poverty and economic insecurity, with their entire existence dependent on their ability to provide productive value to a new boss.
So let's add these up and guess who will be most targeted by this pandemic: The poor, the elderly, minorities, the homeless. In short, those who have been deemed economically un-productive.
And why? Why neglect to address the items above? Because to actually solve these issues, the state would have to admit that our current economic model is ineffective by design. That it always has been. Solving these issues would spread the idea that collective ownership of production of necessary industries is not only feasible, but morally responsible. But instead we are left with a false choice where we try to balance when it is okay to re-open the market vs an acceptable body count. And if at least 200,000 people have to die in order to maintain this system of extreme privatization followed by a deep and prolonged recession where more and more people are thrown into the streets, then that is what the government is going to do. Because fuck you.
Thank-you great post and agree 100%
1918 v now shouldn't be compared - we are an advanced, wealthy society and we should have predicted/prevented this globally - I think @newguy's main point is systematic resilience for a caring and loving society with human rights at the - what is the point of wealth if it is as the cost of society?
UN secretary general: recovery from the coronavirus crisis must lead to a better world via Guardian
António Guterres
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/02/un-secretary-general-coronavirus-crisis-world-pandemic-response
totally agree, newguy.
seriously people? the death counts are much lower than 1918 for the same exact reason our life expectancy is much higher - our healthcare systems are light years ahead of that time.
that said, if we overwhelm that system to the point where we can't treat people, those numbers are going to skyrocket.
thumbs up newguy
the people who think that things are working well must be benefiting from their relative security, unable to empathize with the millions who are suffering from the incompetence of a government that has been fracturing and deteriorating for decades. also- how can you draw any conclusions from this current pandemic? we have 0 idea how many deaths there will be, how many waves there will be, etc.. just because the death rate is currently better than before doesn't mean we can't point to the physical and economic suffering (which is likely to be unprecedented since the great depression)
The CDC is expecting between 100,000 and 250,000 deaths from this pandemic. BTW - what a huge fucking range!
People up here downplaying the death toll like the curve has peaked. It hasn't peaked, my guys. Extrapolate.
Yeah and that's just for the United States.
It took 65 days to reach 90,000 cases in the US. The next 90,000 took 5 days.
Yup.
It’s going to get a lot worse, but from what I’ve read, 10 undetected probably mild or asymptotic cases to every 1 confirmed. The death rate is probably a lot lower, and we are probably closer to a herd immunity than we think.
Looks like Italy rate is slowing down maybe approaching top of curve soon.
...
https://covid19relief.sba.gov/#/https://covid19relief.sba.gov/#/
Back to lay-off talk: 20-person firm, Midwest, just put entire staff including partners on a 32 hour week. I honestly think it’s a smart move and we will ride it out. Hang in there everyone.
Was that yours LB? If so sorry to hear!
The Midwest isn't being hit as hard as the coasts, I imagine?
it took a few days longer for the virus to get to us in the midwest. we had a chance to see what was happening in washington and how they responded, so our local governments were in a better position to prepare. i think that helped.
word from our honchos is that the loans from the fed's will pay everyone's salary for 2 months, and will become grants if all stipulations are followed. Hopefully that works out as planned.
Nurse wife is being sent to bedside care next week, hasn't done patient care in 10 years. We're told that anyone who refuses will see immediate termination. Nor are nurses allowed to wear their own PPE if the hospital cannot supply it. (they can't)
I suspect there are some overzealous HR folks involved. I'm certain that they will love dealing with a nurses union this time next year.
havent you heard? unions are always bad. I hope your wife stays healthy.
Thanks sneaky, the hospital admins are a bunch of pompous boobs
As usual, this will be a feeding frenzy for tort lawyers.
Ridiculous. My younger sister is a nurse too. She didn’t have a proper mask for over 2 weeks. She has a heart condition and just got over viral meningitis. She said “this is my duty, I’m a nurse”. Unbelievably brave. Best of luck to your wife!
And my lawyer sister is already thinking of who to sue! Lol. Such a crazy time.
Why aren’t hotels (cough cough trump hotels) being used for nurses and docs to keep isolated from families?
These life savers are the heroes of this whole thing. Wonder if they'll allow them to board planes first etc. when this thing is over. If anything this will hopefully raise the care giving jobs to the status they deserve. "The measure of a civilization is how it treats its weakest members." Hats off to your sister jla-x.
A real challenge of the PPP is going to be how the banks are going to handle the huge wave of applications from borrowers. I also think the $350 billion is going to be exhausted pretty quickly.
all the best archinect peeps - stay safe!
6.6 million layed off and furloughed so far, Boeing announces employee buyouts
Shit. Not to make light of this, but I’d really be interested to see the co2 dip this thing has caused. I haven’t seen a plane in days.
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/stunning-impact-covid-19-social-distancing-air-pollution there are a few other places testing this
I've been saying this like a preacher at a hot-dish party; the earth is tired of this virus - humans - and it's ready for the purge.
some maps
beta, you mean this move clip
Few days ago, our firm laid off around 15% 30+ people from our 3 offices across the east coast. Pay cuts starting around 5-10%. But have to be happy we're still working. One of my staff was about to get the boot but I had to find work for him to do to get his 40hrs/wk. We're based in Central Fl
We are WFH and are to use the 80 new hours on our time sheets provided by the fed govt to cover any slack work. Given the current pace, that should cover all employees through the end of summer without furlough or layoffs.
we’ve fully converted to WFH and had an office wide video meeting yesterday. No loss of production or billable time so things are looking as good as they can be. Got a few new projects on the books too.
Hearing about lots of layoffs in NYC. Was laid off myself March 20 with 10 others after our first week of WFH out of 80ish person firm. Was there +5 years, associate. Laid off over the phone, no contact from bosses, 2 weeks severance, zero effort at empathy. Is this crisis bringing out the worst in others’ former (or current) employers?
My buddy got laid off over a text message...
I'm also in NYC; furloughed for about a month now. Midsize firm mostly education, residential, & corporate interiors. Seems like construction work within the city is stopping, deemed non-essential? Friends who work in global/larger firms still seem busy. Anyone else have any input on what's going on here?
i'm in nyc as well. hearing that firms that are in luxury, private residential, and commercial (obviously) are laying off, where as firms that are in affordable/public housing (state/city funding) are decently weathering the storm (these projects have been deemed essential).
a text message?
I see... thanks for the input square
Sorry for everyone that has been laid off from their job or been directly affected. It is probably just a matter of time before I too am confronted with such. Hopefully job losses will be temporary for most and we will resume our positions or find new jobs. The conditions underlying this slowdown are very unique. The economy may pick back up as quickly as it came to a halt.
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