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tduds

"There are multiple adverse outcomes that result from political sectarianism, according to the authors. It “incentivizes politicians to adopt antidemocratic tactics when pursuing electoral or political victories” since their supporters will justify such norm violation because “the consequences of having the vile opposition win the election are catastrophic.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/1...

Dec 17, 20 12:28 am  · 
1  · 

Just popping in to say that lady who has too much hair ALSO has way to much house. Why are people so vain and heartless?


Dec 31, 20 10:00 am  · 
3  · 
tduds

That was a good little essay.

Dec 31, 20 11:40 am  · 
2  · 
tduds

Did you read the article or just the screencap?

Dec 31, 20 1:55 pm  · 
1  · 
Wood Guy

On a related note, does anyone here follow Dr Heather Cox Richardson? She's a brilliant historian who has been putting today's events in context almost daily all year. Her 12/30 post is partly about the rise of knee-jerk libertarianism, where people think they should be allowed to do whatever the frack they want. https://www.facebook.com/heathercoxrichardson

Dec 31, 20 2:16 pm  · 
2  · 
Wood Guy

The responsible adults of our society need to determine what is realistic. Currently we have a bunch of selfish toddlers pulling the strings. Believe it or not, not all of us think that we should all be allowed to do whatever we want, whenever we want--our actions have consequences.

Dec 31, 20 3:14 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

"Why shouldn’t you be able to do whatever you want as long as it’s not violating anyone’s right" 

Frequently because what people want to do *does* violate other's rights/freedoms, but not in immediately obvious or direct ways. It's a similar sleight-of-hand as the 'equality of opportunity/outcome' debate (in which many attempts at equalities of opportunity are incorrectly labeled as 'outcome' and dismissed on that false label)  We either consciously or subconsciously dismiss the externalities and second- / third-order effects of the things we love. We either pretend our behavior is harmless or remain blind to evidence of these harms our behaviors mostly because "I like it and I want it." 

We're all guilty of this, to some extent, myself very much included. It's human nature. A good system would account for the unwillingness and/or inability for every individual to consider every externality of their personal behavior, and put guard-rails up to prevent both accidental and intentional violations.

Jan 4, 21 12:57 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

"What’s too rich?"
1 billion dollars. 

"That’s a very subjective parameter."
It sure is but you gotta start somewhere.

Jan 4, 21 12:58 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Ok.

Jan 4, 21 1:37 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Nobody should be able to lose a million dollars all at once (bad investment, charitable donation, etc) and still be a millionaire.

Jan 4, 21 1:38 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

I agree that it's bad to execute people for having bread, and it's also bad for people to hoard billions while others starve. I think allowing 999 million dollars is a very generous compromise for the time being.

Jan 4, 21 2:47 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Since we're *into it now*, lets revisit the OP. 

"You and the author are presenting a moral argument- that her house is too big." 

If you read the article, you'd realize that no - this is not the argument. 

"A little bread, a little charity, an occasional glimpse of a private art hoard — these are the ways the ultra-rich have justified themselves throughout history. In the case of Sen. Loeffler, the veil of noblesse oblige has worn thinner now that she and her husband have fully entered public life." 

The thesis of the article - as you're so fond of claiming - is to point out the hypocrisy.

Jan 4, 21 2:49 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

You asked "How rich is too rich?" I gave what I thought was a good jumping off point. If you think the correct amount is different, feel free to actually participate in the conversation you started. 

Peaceful redistribution is generous compared to violent redistribution. If history has taught us anything, it's that the aristocracy eventually meets one of those two endings.

Jan 4, 21 3:08 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

I'm more optimistic than that.

Jan 4, 21 4:09 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

There's a circularity here in which you're complaining about the current government that results from the influence of money, while insisting that the people with money who created such a government are good and should be left to continue doing this.

Jan 4, 21 4:33 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

.

Jan 4, 21 4:34 pm  · 
1  · 

Hot take: Gov't is accountable to The People, business is accountable to shareholders. If money is going to have to go through shady characters (something arguably addressable with elected pols ... though Citizens United is not helpful with this), I'd rather have the shady characters be accountable to people based on the voting public rather than just accountable to people with money.

Also, The People trying to hold business accountable get criticized for "cancel culture" and "virtue signaling."

Jan 5, 21 2:08 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

There's nothing circular about it. Like EA said - government is (or should be) accountable to the people. They're elected. I think a lot of anti-gov & anti-tax sentiment is based in the (fatalistic, imo) idea that the government is an "other" who takes money and keeps it, rather than "us" who receives money and redistributes it according to our lawfully agreed upon needs & priorities. Contrary to that, my point is that billionaire philanthropy relies on an altruism that can be revoked at any time with no explanation or consequence. Public social safety nets are protected by statute. Like I said, I'm optimistic. The elements of the system we have at the moment are broken, but the system itself is reformable. A starting point, but surely not the only necessary action, is to address both economic inequality and the outsized influence of money in politics.

Jan 5, 21 2:50 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Give examples.

Jan 6, 21 10:28 am  · 
 · 

Government has also solved a lot injustices and problems caused by business and I don’t really see where business is solving any of the problems caused by government ... but keep dreaming, ok?

Jan 6, 21 10:33 am  · 
 · 

Should probably be some soft air quotes around "solved" in my statement above, but that's also a byproduct of business interest and money in politics I think. 

Did the Civil Rights Act "solve" civil injustices and discrimination ... no, but it sure made some steps in the right direction. Does the Fair Labor Standards Act and the National Labor Relations Act (and others) "solve" exploitive practices of businesses and employers ... no, but it guarantees a lot of rights the free market wasn't and would probably never get to. 

What injustices has business solved?

Jan 6, 21 12:30 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

I'm sorry I meant specific examples. I'll start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster

Jan 6, 21 12:56 pm  · 
 · 

That's a pretty narrow understanding of the world ... and you know it. 

BTW, for your comment about fixing problems they created to focus on creating other problems ... mafia = government or business?

Jan 6, 21 12:57 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

So, no examples then. Got it.

Jan 6, 21 1:00 pm  · 
1  · 

LOL, the stimulus package is the way it is because of business interests pulling the puppet strings attached to McConnell's and other politicians' hands. Liability protections? ... anyone? ... anyone? ... Bueller?

Jan 6, 21 1:13 pm  · 
 · 

tduds, no examples, hyperbole with the vampires comment, and deflection with the mafia comment. Waiting for changing the subject next. Or was that in the amen and awoman comment?

Jan 6, 21 1:14 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

My takeaway from this is that what billionaires do with their money is none of my concern and also good, and when they use their money to elect a government who cater to their interests it's the government's fault.

Jan 6, 21 1:53 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

An elected government being both a reflection of and accountable to our society (or a sliver of it, in many cases) simply means it will reflect the values that society projects. Be it racism, slavery, or rapacious exploitative industrialism, we get what we allow. The government didn't invent slavery, they enacted the will of the population who demanded it (as well as later enacting the will of the population who demanded its abolition). Like I said above, assuming these realities would never have occurred if not for "the government" is fatalistic.

Jan 6, 21 1:56 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

"Without government, the oppressed would have had a greater chance at rebellion no?" 

The Tulsa Massacre, among many *many* other events, would suggest otherwise.

Jan 6, 21 2:52 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Still no examples, btw. I put up 2.

Jan 6, 21 2:52 pm  · 
 · 

You're also saying there would have been greater opportunity for the oppressed to rebel and overcome the oppression if there was no government. When in the history of the world has that ever been the case? Specific examples please.

Jan 6, 21 5:53 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

I like this explanation a lot: Lurking behind all of this is a faulty premise—that the descent into authoritarianism is what needs to be explained, when the reality is that . . . it always happens. The default condition of humankind is not to thrive in broadly egalitarian and stable democratic arrangements that get unsettled only when something happens to unsettle them. The default condition of humankind, traced across thousands of years of history, is some sort of autocracy.

https://www.newyorker.com/maga...

Jan 4, 21 3:47 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Somewhat related to a thing I wrote a couple years back: 

The post-WW2 global order was (for better or worse) almost entirely based on the premise that the US / UK will give a shit. In return, the US / UK benefitted immensely from the status quo. I'm not saying the US/UK imposed order was necessarily good, or that the goal should be to return to it. I'm simply saying that this is a systemic failure - one baked into the system from the start - and *something* needs to exist in its place, because a vacuum quickly descends into despotism and war.

The people currently in charge are the first generation to have no memory of the world before this order was imposed, and they massively underestimated the natural instability of it's existence. We began to see the maintenance cost of this system not as an investment from which we massively benefited, but as a tax imposed, for which we are not thanked enough. 

It only took a small disinformation campaign by powers who stand to benefit from the disintegration of the system to convince the US and UK to shrug off their duties and turn inward. 

What we're witnessing now are the first pieces of a crumbling infrastructure that we wrongly assumed was the default state. It's what the world becomes when the people charged with giving a shit forgot they needed to.

Jan 4, 21 3:58 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

I rarely am ;)

Jan 6, 21 2:56 pm  · 
 · 
liberty bell

Looking likely that the long-haired lady lost. LOL

Jan 6, 21 6:42 am  · 
3  · 

Can anyone share any good Loeffler LOST memes? I'm afraid to search on my work computer.

Jan 6, 21 8:49 am  · 
2  · 
tduds

Lot of good "outsider trading" jokes on twitter today.

Jan 6, 21 10:25 am  · 
3  · 

Yeah, most are about how she’ll end up the winner when it comes out that she bought a bunch of stock in Warnock before the election.

Jan 6, 21 10:29 am  · 
4  · 
JLC-1

you think she bet against herself.?

Jan 6, 21 12:30 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Well... damn. Did not see that coming.

Jan 6, 21 11:52 am  · 
3  · 

I mean there was a small part of me that was hoping for it ... but I did not expect it realistically.

Jan 6, 21 12:40 pm  · 
2  · 
Wood Guy

I think most of us formed a protective shell around the GA election. A pleasant surprise indeed.

Jan 6, 21 12:44 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

i thought for sure warnock would win, was concerned about ossoff. but what a start to the year.

Jan 6, 21 2:03 pm  · 
2  · 

Economic crash was going to happen regardless of the outcome of this or the Nov elections. Has more to do with a stock bubble that is going to burst. But yeah, my guess is before the end of the year for sure. Republicans will likely blame Democrats for it and will likely win handsomely in 2022.

Jan 6, 21 4:17 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Everyone knows there's a big lever in the white house that makes the stocks go up or down.

Jan 6, 21 4:19 pm  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

Time to get as much done as fast as possible.

Jan 6, 21 4:29 pm  · 
 · 

I'm not all that knowledgeable about economics, but I wonder if there is an argument to be made that part of what is propping up the bubble is the emergency lending programs the Fed introduced early in the pandemic. The same ones the most recent stimulus bill prevents them from taking again thanks to Pat Toomey. [Shrugs shoulders]

Jan 6, 21 5:27 pm  · 
 · 
square.

with all that is going on in DC right now, i don't want to hear xlax ever say that "both sides are equal" again. this is insanity- this mob reassembles the "communist" mobs that he continually uses as fear baiting for the dems. yet, here is a real angry, irrational mob, storming the capital over false pretenses.

Jan 6, 21 2:27 pm  · 
5  ·  1
tduds

The far right is about to learn - the hard way - that cops are instruments of state power & not their pals.

Jan 6, 21 2:48 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Image.

Jan 6, 21 2:48 pm  · 
6  · 
Non Sequitur

That twitter feed is something special. And you guys still want to be considered a super power? Anyways, how many are wearing masks in that mob?

Jan 6, 21 3:23 pm  · 
1  · 
BabbleBeautiful

"Insurrection" by definition is violent bro

Jan 6, 21 3:37 pm  · 
1  · 
BabbleBeautiful

Coo

Jan 6, 21 3:53 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

Those are some “very fine people”...what a day!

Jan 6, 21 4:06 pm  · 
 · 

For the record, no one ever said jla wouldn't condemn the mob, just that they don't want to hear jla say "both sides are equal" again. This is NOT equal to BLM protests. This is is much worse than BLM protests.

Jan 6, 21 4:08 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

.

Jan 6, 21 4:24 pm  · 
2  · 

It's a tired response at this point ... but why would the cops fire bomb their own cars?

Jan 6, 21 5:17 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Someone was shot inside the US Capitol.

Jan 6, 21 5:20 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

If, so some bizarre reason, it was Biden supporters storming the capital, Trump supporters would be calling for mass culling of everyone involved.

Jan 6, 21 5:25 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

.

Jan 6, 21 5:42 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

Looking real tough with those aviator shades tucked into your ammo vest... and sporting a new red iphone.  Funny thing, walk into any gov building north of your border carrying a silly pistol like this wanker and you will be shot down but it's just an everyday occurrence in the "land of the free".   

Jan 6, 21 5:47 pm  · 
1  · 

Click page to page 4 of this thread and you can find where archi_dude and jla were more worried about left-wing rioters after the election.

Jan 6, 21 5:48 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

I occasionally forget archi_dude is an obnoxious fascist enabler but thankfully he reminds us from time to time.

Jan 6, 21 5:50 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

Don't make me get the dril tweet.

Jan 6, 21 5:57 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

No, you showed up in every thread pointing out the long Republican slide into fascism to bitch about Democrats & derail the thread. And you're doing it again, in the middle of a literal fucking coup attempt. Get fucked.

Jan 6, 21 5:58 pm  · 
5  · 
tduds

"I'd be happy with fascism if it was peaceful"

Jan 6, 21 6:03 pm  · 
1  · 

Did somebody ask for words coming out of a mouth from page 4?

Jan 6, 21 6:08 pm  · 
3  · 
Non Sequitur

Peaceful Fascism, new christian-rock punk band?

Jan 6, 21 6:09 pm  · 
 · 

So when I said that you were more worried about left-wing rioters back on page 4, also completely true then. I didn't put any words in your mouth that weren't your own.

"The left is more unhinged," "more likely to go nuts in the streets than boomers with maga fanny packs," "more likely to engage in mob behavior."

Jan 6, 21 6:20 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

would have, could have, should have.... all meaningless assumptions with no supporting evidence. Anyone jump the Whitehouse fence carrying Hillary banners back in 2016?

Jan 6, 21 6:21 pm  · 
3  · 
SneakyPete

Why does every forum or web community have that one guy who's rabidly one-sided but protests loudly about being the only unbiased person around?

Jan 6, 21 6:23 pm  · 
5  · 
Wood Guy

Pete I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice that. If you have to tell everyone how unbiased you are, maybe you aren't as unbiased as you think...

Jan 6, 21 6:48 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

Frankly, I don't really care anymore about blanket condemnation of "riots and violence" but rather about condemning or condoning what they're in service of.

What gets me is - as I've said before - this sort of forced binary between "Trump and his people" and "Biden and his people." This is not about Republicans v. Democrats or really even the right vs. the left. It's about anti-trump, anti-fascist forces vs. pro-Trump, pro-fascist forces. There is simply no equivalent within the Democratic leadership. Today's events - whatever you want to call them - were carried out quite explicitly at the behest of, and in support of, Donald Trump. Had Trump won, there would have been protests against Trump, but not *for* Biden. One side is protesting against authoritarianism, the other side is protesting in favor of it. They are not the same. 

Jan 6, 21 6:59 pm  · 
6  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Fuck you. Piece of shit. You'd defend the King's Tea, your garbage take, human disease.

Jan 6, 21 9:44 pm  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

What's ultimately disgusting, you privileged fucking muppet, is that you think people, Black fucking People, demanding to be treated with fucking decency, and never getting it, and looting stuff, is morally equivalent to what occurred today. You're basically saying "things" are "people" are "democracy". You're bullshit Libertarian infantilism can suck my modest 6" cock.

Jan 6, 21 9:51 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

You dumb fuck. The police station is still standing, I drive by it every fucking day. You stupid punk. Plus it was burned by Boogaloo Bois.

Jan 6, 21 9:53 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Your head is consistently up your ass. Go take care of your wife, covidiot.

Jan 6, 21 9:54 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

To add a humorous (not really) note, there were 2 parallel pro-trump rallies in, the totally the opposite of trumpanistan, Candada today. A few dozen people (literally) in both toronto and calgary, some wearing army/armour and distributing covid and flyers. The funny part is the one US site I saw with coverage claimed the Toronto protestors marched to the US Embassy... which clearly is a surprise to me since the embassy building is about 2 football fields (cfl regulation fields, please) away from my office... in downtown Ottawa some 500+km (about this many miles) away. Made me chuckle for half a communist second until I realized how sad these people are. The media obviously meant to say the Consulate General building, but then that probably means they would need to explain the difference to their audience and as today has shown, education is not particularly popular.

Jan 6, 21 10:08 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

PEOPLE OVER PROPERTY

You mealy mouthed piece of shit.

Jan 6, 21 10:08 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

beta, unless it's MY property... /s

Jan 6, 21 10:11 pm  · 
 · 
bowling_ball

x-jla, are you seriously equating BLM and anti-fascist protests with what happened at the capitol building today?
Go fuck yourself.

Jan 6, 21 11:15 pm  · 
3  · 
square.

the fact that xlax down-voted my post shows everything you need to know: he's a fascist masquerading as a libertarian. you know you have a problem when you can't unequivocally condemn a coup without reverting to the cult of both-sidesism (which, let us not forget, is one of trump's favorite moves)

Jan 7, 21 9:25 am  · 
3  · 
square.

says "they are not equal" and then IMMEDIATELY follows with "they are both.. both.. both.." the gaslighting far right/trump tactics continue.

you are either not very bright or a disingenuous troll. probably a combination of both.

Jan 7, 21 11:30 am  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

gaslighting... not bright... there is a pun in here somewhere but can't quite put my finger on it. Someone care to shine some light on this point?

Jan 7, 21 11:38 am  · 
1  · 

For the record, it was square. who first said he didn't want to hear jla say both sides are equal. I was just pointing out that jla missed that when he transformed that into an assertion that he wouldn't condemn the mob. Still something no one said jla wouldn't do. 

Also for the record, there is a difference between simply condemning something and unequivocally condemning something. While jla has shown willingness to condemn the mob and the coup attempt, he has not been able to unequivocally condemn it. 

Finally, let the record also reflect that in addition to accusations of dimness and disingenuousness from others, EA is also accusing jla of poor reading comprehension.

Jan 7, 21 12:29 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

poor is generous.

Jan 7, 21 12:35 pm  · 
 · 
square.

i've noticed that when you're losing, you often resort to repeating what others just said.

Jan 7, 21 1:11 pm  · 
 · 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Edit: mostly for the record. Also hoping that jla might read it and learn something, but not holding out hope (ibid. poor reading comprehension)

Jan 7, 21 1:46 pm  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

x-lax is incapable of learning. x-lax is a waste of responses. can we ALL just put him on ignore? Then he won't bitch about unfair suppression of his precious rights and the rest of us can have civil discourse without being derailed by his drivel EVERY FUCKING TIME. Christ on a crutch, there are better ways to spend time than providing context, nuance, and facts for whatever poor, brain dead fucks might fall for his brand of bullshit. 

Jan 7, 21 2:16 pm  · 
1  · 

yep, no false equivalencies here *rolls eyes*: 

"They are both capable of despicable behavior of their own brand. Both are degenerative manifestations of American politics, and both are being used and exploited by political elites and media cronies"

Jan 7, 21 2:32 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

taking your suggestions SP. i lifted the ban to see what his depraved ass would say about the coup.. no change, and if any, deeper into the cesspool. pathetic.

Jan 7, 21 2:37 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

I don't know why I thought I'd get work done today...

Jan 6, 21 4:14 pm  · 
6  · 
Non Sequitur

you could have at least aligned the text with the button labels correctly in your meme above...

Jan 6, 21 5:05 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

I didn't make it!

Jan 6, 21 5:14 pm  · 
 · 
proto

assholes always show you who they are

Jan 6, 21 4:30 pm  · 
 · 

Trump supporters, how do you feel about the actions of the other Trump supporters at the capitol? What do you you think of the POTUS congratulating the actions of the his supporters at the capitol?

Destruction of property
Looting
Assault
Murder

Jan 6, 21 6:24 pm  · 
3  · 
SneakyPete

Based on the clips I saw it was a rioter who got shot in the chest and died, but it wasn't clear who shot her.

Jan 6, 21 6:25 pm  · 
 · 

I'm aware of that. It's still a murder and it appears to be a direct result of the violence the Trump supporters are committing.  

I could be incorrect though.

Jan 6, 21 6:31 pm  · 
1  · 
Koww

 

oh wait not murda... she was shot by capital police

Jan 7, 21 8:42 am  · 
 ·  1

Actually it's considered murder until the police review the shooting and determine it was justified.

Also at the time of my posting the details of the shooting where not known.


Jan 7, 21 10:27 am  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

jla, we'll remember this next time to try to justify the 2A nonsense for self-defense.

Jan 7, 21 10:28 am  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

jla, one person with a knife is not the same threat-level as a mob with firearms. I wrote it above here somewhere, break into my gov's buildings brandishing a weapon and you will be taken down, in less than lethal methods preferably, by a very apologetic RCMP officer.. Why this mob was not stopped at the gates is a more important point tho.

Jan 7, 21 11:02 am  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

"Praising" police? Clearly your ability to understand what you're watching is in line with your inability to grasp reality. Every news organization I watched was excoriating the Capitol PD, FBI, DHS. They failed, miserably.

Jan 7, 21 11:35 am  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

I'm guessing that you missed what happened this past year, and last night.

Jan 7, 21 12:52 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

jla, if anything deserves a militarized police defense, should it not be your main government headquarters? M'erica, look at how tough we are, flying bombers over a football game and whatnot, yet we can't keep our own house from getting sacked by a bunch of wankers.

Jan 7, 21 1:56 pm  · 
3  · 
SneakyPete

If this bullshit leads to the fucking police getting MORE militarized, I'm gonna be PISSED.

Jan 7, 21 2:14 pm  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Listen, choad, police tear gassed peaceful protestors, shot rubber bullets at press, shot gas canisters in the face of bystanders, and took offensive positions on rooftops. Not to mention were found t o congregate, and found brotherhood WITH Proud Boys. Yesterday, they let terrorists sache into the capital. They took selfies. So fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck you and my moral inconsistent take, you are a child. I'll say what others have said; we don't demand that cops start shooting people, but that cops start treating Black people like white people were treated yesterday.

You third rate chump.

Jan 7, 21 2:23 pm  · 
2  · 
Non Sequitur

.

Jan 6, 21 7:56 pm  · 
5  · 
bowling_ball

I actually picked the right day to stay home with a hangover. They did this to themselves and I have zero sympathy.

Jan 6, 21 9:47 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

not pictured: snow, hockey sticks, maple syrup.

Jan 6, 21 10:09 pm  · 
1  · 

It's interesting to hear the right now saying that the police over reacted and the officer should be charged with the murder of someone who's only crime was practicing their first amendment rights.

Jan 7, 21 10:33 am  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

She committed a laundry list of crimes. Does that justify her death? What if she was selling loose cigarettes?

Jan 7, 21 2:13 pm  · 
2  · 

The view from Midwest middle class moms is this: anguish, fear for our kids' futures and mental health, worry about the safety of everyone (yes that includes the dimwits doing things like getting shot in the Congress - we're all humans).

Jan 7, 21 9:39 am  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

was it not that already pre yesterday's ridiculousness? I can put in a good word for you with JustinT up here. I'm sure he'll open a gap in the border long enough for you, and a few bottles of burb, to sneak in.

Jan 7, 21 10:22 am  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

r/pics - “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross”

That crucifix is because they believe Biden to be a vampire. Not pictured are the handfulls of garlic being stuffed into the bullet-proof ammo vests.

Jan 7, 21 10:33 am  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

Maybe, I could excuse an Italian fascist if they can make a decent pizza with pineapple tho.

Jan 7, 21 10:38 am  · 
1  · 
randomised

No Italian since the beginning of time ever put pineapple on a pizza...

Jan 7, 21 11:05 am  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

The Italian at the pizza joint near my house does. QED.

Jan 7, 21 11:16 am  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

The joint, not a pizza joint, but an Italian restaurant does an amazing vegan with pineapple za.

Jan 7, 21 11:29 am  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

^do tell, what is their substitute for ham? The real secret to a good pineapple za is a spicy sauce.

Jan 7, 21 11:33 am  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

it's better.

Jan 7, 21 12:38 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

No ham, just pineapple with a spicy pepper deal and red sauce

Jan 7, 21 4:10 pm  · 
1  · 
_N8_

None of us are surprised that a group of trump terrorists stormed the Capitol, just like we're not surprised that the George Floyd murder sparked riots. However, why are we not allowed to believe that one side is justified and the other is not? Believing that consistency is required is arbitrary and inherently conservative - maintaining the status quo. The question is now, what policies can be implemented to actually see progress? 

Jan 7, 21 12:13 pm  · 
 · 
bowling_ball

Yes the culture needs to change. It needs to stop trying to equate protests over basic human rights, with an armed insurrection at your capitol building.

Jan 7, 21 1:10 pm  · 
5  · 
newguy

I'd feign to be shocked, but a lazy and ill-planned fascist insurrection carried out by aggrieved white suburban small business owners and would-be school shooters defending the honor of a reality TV star is probably the most on-brand end to this miserable American experiment

Jan 7, 21 12:22 pm  · 
12  · 
Non Sequitur

gold star for this comment.

Jan 7, 21 12:26 pm  · 
1  · 

My only note ... the reality TV star has no honor. I'd be happier if you added an adjective like "perceived," "imagined," "self-assumed," etc. in front of the word honor. Still gold star work.

Jan 7, 21 1:29 pm  · 
2  · 

In this same vein of 'on-brand Americanism,' there was a tweet I saw yesterday (but can't seem to find again so I'll paraphrase poorly) pointing out that one wondering if we have to still work our jobs through the attempted coup is pretty 'on-brand American' as well.

Jan 7, 21 1:54 pm  · 
2  · 
randomised

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/Wn7qhj3

Jan 7, 21 6:08 pm  · 
1  · 

Pretty sure that was the one, thanks randomised

Jan 7, 21 6:33 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

It's gonna get lost above, so I'm reposting it here:

x-lax is incapable of learning. x-lax is a waste of responses. can we ALL just put him on ignore? Then he won't bitch about unfair suppression of his precious rights and the rest of us can have civil discourse without being derailed by his drivel EVERY FUCKING TIME. Christ on a crutch, there are better ways to spend time than providing context, nuance, and facts for whatever poor, brain-dead fucks who might fall for his brand of bullshit. 

Jan 7, 21 2:19 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

I came closer to the ignore button this morning than ever before.

Jan 7, 21 2:26 pm  · 
3  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Done.

Jan 7, 21 2:27 pm  · 
2  · 
SneakyPete

I'm sure what you posted is thoughtful, logical, nuanced, eloquent, and truthful. Not to mention factual. 

But I don't care to read it. 

You'll think I'm doing this out of fear. I am not. 

You don't listen to cancer. You don't debate a tumor. You do not reason with a virus. You eradicate it. Since I am not the owner of this site, the way I do that is with the ignore button. So move along, little infection. You aren't making me sick anymore.

Jan 7, 21 2:35 pm  · 
3  · 
square.

said this above but.. taking your suggestions SP. i lifted the ignore to see what his depraved ass would say about the coup.. no change, and if any, deeper into the cesspool. pathetic.

Jan 7, 21 2:38 pm  · 
2  · 
Wood Guy

I'm in a couple of Facebook groups for INTP personality types and I swear x-jla is in them--identical arguments, can't let anybody have a different opinion than their version of reality where everyone sucks and will always suck, only they can see the truth. I find that anarchist/nihilist mindset to be very sad, and without imagination.

Jan 7, 21 3:28 pm  · 
5  · 
tduds

At least I know I'm in a bubble.

Jan 7, 21 3:46 pm  · 
1  · 
Wood Guy

Who said I didn't know I was in a bubble?

Jan 7, 21 4:33 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Sorry, I was talking at jla. You're cool. We're cool.

Jan 7, 21 5:52 pm  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

he's probably responding to lax

Jan 7, 21 5:55 pm  · 
 · 
atelier nobody

If you want to understand everything you need to know about the the current state of "libertarianism", just try giving a cat a pill to save its life. (Note I specified "current state" - both Hayek and Nozick were actually more subtle thinkers, but the current crop of "libertarians" ignore certain passages in their work as thoroughly as fundamentalists ignore the parts of the Bible they don't like. And don't even get me started on the misreading of Adam Smith...)

Jan 7, 21 2:42 pm  · 
2  · 

What are the chances that Pence will be the 46th President by the end of this week?

TBH, I'm annoyed (not surprised) that it's taking this long. We should have been reading the press release from Pence this morning about invoking the 25th overnight, or reading about the articles of impeachment that will be sent to the Senate before noon. 

Instead all we have is a smattering of rats fleeing the sinking ship, rumors of the 25th being talked about, and drafts of articles of impeachment being shared but Speaker Pelosi indicating she's waiting to see what Pence does. Meanwhile, Trump is probably trying to tweet out pardons for his family but can't figure out why he's been suspended.

Jan 7, 21 3:05 pm  · 
2  · 

Somewhere in a could-be-a-West-Wing-episode alternate universe, Pence would be president tonight (via unanimous impeachment), appoint President-Elect Biden as VP, and then promptly resign.

Jan 7, 21 3:06 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Looking like the people who could invoke the 25th are choosing to resign instead of taking the stance. Kind of a shame, really.

Jan 7, 21 3:47 pm  · 
4  · 

still too scared of the base

Jan 7, 21 3:48 pm  · 
2  · 
sameolddoctor
JLA is the perfect example of right leaning libertarians (who are actually right wingers but hide behind the “everyone is bad” rhetoric). They will keep spewing hatred and Crap until called out, and when they are will say “liberals keep crushing our thoughts and words”.
Jan 7, 21 3:12 pm  · 
5  · 
Wood Guy

1. Stormed the Capitol building

2. Encouraged by president to riot

Jan 7, 21 3:30 pm  · 
7  · 

3. Object to lawfully cast ballots and attempt to disenfranchise millions of voters (or are we only talking about the rioters?)

4. Get help to break through the barricades by the police that should have been turning them away.

5. Sit on the daises of the congressional chambers.

6. Carry confederate flags into the capitol building unmolested.

Jan 7, 21 3:32 pm  · 
6  · 

jla's rebuttal so far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Jan 7, 21 3:38 pm  · 
3  · 
SneakyPete

jla's rebuttal so far:

And this is the last I'll harp on it, please continue.

Jan 7, 21 3:47 pm  · 
5  · 
tduds

I can think of one thing the fascists are doing that the anti-fascists are not. Starts with an F...

Jan 7, 21 3:48 pm  · 
2  ·  1
SneakyPete

fucking the dog?

Jan 7, 21 3:50 pm  · 
3  · 
gibbost

You mean the time that police dragged 40 disabled people out of the Capitol back in 2017 for peacefully protesting the proposed changes to ACA, Medicaid, and insurance subsidies? Yesterday's crowd was treated much nicer.

Jan 7, 21 3:51 pm  · 
5  · 
tduds

The Allies also killed people in world war two. Basically no difference between them and the Nazis.

Jan 7, 21 3:53 pm  · 
8  ·  1

Investigating and impeaching the president are not the same as voting against acceptance of duly appointed and certified electors, which if successful would have nullified the votes of millions and spat upon states' rights as apportioned by the constitution. 

Nothing you've alluded to, or will be able to present, is the same as #1 either.

Jan 7, 21 3:56 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

"# 3 was pretty much all they did for 4 years" 

So you believe an elected president should be entirely above the law and unaccountable for their actions while president. Thanks for clarifying.

Jan 7, 21 4:01 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

Just stop. You're allowed to say nothing.

Jan 7, 21 4:01 pm  · 
3  · 

7. Called the Georgia Sec. of State asking him to "find" enough votes to change the results of an election (not yesterday, but close enough if jla is also looking at the past 4 years rather than just the past year as he established at the beginning of his game).

Jan 7, 21 4:04 pm  · 
4  · 

How many of those other buildings were the literal houses of a branch of government during the precise moment they were being used to certify and count the results of a democratic election? 

"bUT thEY TriED tO stORm ThE WHiTE HouSE" doesn't count, because as you pointed out "[unsuccessful] because greater police presence and barricades."

Jan 7, 21 4:16 pm  · 
5  · 

LOL, "too site specific" ... nice that you get to make up whatever rules you want to in the game, no?

Jan 7, 21 4:18 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

That is not a fact. Even if it were true (it isn't), it is not a fact by any definition of the word. Interpretation at best. You want to be pedantic? I'll out-pedant you in my sleep, motherfucker.

Jan 7, 21 4:20 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

If you think all violence is deplorable regardless of intent or justification, I've got some rough news about the foundation of our country.

Jan 7, 21 4:21 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

jla over here maintaining allegiance to King George in order to keep a consistent stance against violence.

Jan 7, 21 4:21 pm  · 
2  · 

^ you kidding tduds!?! I've got some rough news about some people that were here before the British.

Jan 7, 21 4:28 pm  · 
2  · 
Wood Guy

Regarding #1, I believe I wrote CAPITOL BUILDING, not random federal buildings. Somewhat equivalent, sure, but not the same. I don't recall seeing anything about a liberal mob taking over the floor, breaking windows and stealing things from the CAPITOL BUILDING, but maybe I missed something.

Jan 7, 21 4:39 pm  · 
4  · 

#1 never said "attacking federal buildings." That is the result of the mental gymnastics you're doing to try to save face. 

Attacking the building that serves as the seat of the legislative branch during the process to certify a democratic election are unique to the right. That they did so upon encouragement of the fascist leader of the executive branch who lost that democratic election is the definition of a coup. So ... 

8. Attempted coup.

Jan 7, 21 5:41 pm  · 
3  · 

9. Left pipe bomb at the RNC headquarters.

Jan 7, 21 5:50 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

l o fucking l

Jan 7, 21 6:01 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

This is a fun game in which actual events are compared to or substituted for jla's hypotheticals based on whether or not they reinforce jla's thesis.

Jan 7, 21 6:04 pm  · 
4  · 

Antifa used them on political party headquarters? And just so we're clear, are these actual explosive devices or the candles that the Seattle PD claimed were explosive devices?

Jan 7, 21 6:09 pm  · 
1  · 

"if you believe [...] the left wouldn’t have been morally capable of doing the same minus excessive police presence then give yourself a shiny point.

Since they had apparently four years to try and they never did, I'll take the shiny point. For making the game and changing the rules as needed, you seem to be losing a lot at this game.

Jan 7, 21 6:17 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

I warned you...


Jan 7, 21 7:50 pm  · 
3  · 

"Almost Every point you’ve brought up has a left wing version." 

Even if that were true (and it's not), you've still conceded the following points: #1, #2, and #4. But since it's not true and your mental gymnastics aren't enough to convince anyone but yourself for #3, #8, and #9 ... I'm claiming points for those too. 

Also since you've had ample opportunity to refute #7, but haven't yet ... I'm claiming a point for it as well. 

Finally, in the sake of fair gamesmanship, I'm also deciding that you can't make up rules like you don't think an item "counts" unilaterally, nor that an item is "too site specific," so we get points for #5 and #6. 

So that makes the score *checks notes* nine for us and zero for you. Thanks for playing.

Jan 7, 21 8:16 pm  · 
3  · 

Hmm, let's check the rules you set up for the compare and contrast game ... 

"Let’s play a game. Name things that the right wing nuts did yesterday that the left wing nuts haven’t this past year." 

As suspected, it said nothing in there to limit the game to the mobs. Trump is a right wing nut and should be fair game. I mentioned earlier it's a bit of a stretch because it wasn't done yesterday ... but then again you're reaching back 4 years rather than just this past year so ... ?

Jan 7, 21 8:30 pm  · 
3  · 

You were already using that in your rebuttals that aren’t convincing to anyone but yourself. So it’s still 9-0.

Jan 7, 21 9:16 pm  · 
 · 

10. Got Facebook and Twitter to suspend Trump’s accounts. The left wing nuts have been trying, but it was the right wing nuts that were successful.

Jan 7, 21 9:18 pm  · 
2  · 

No, that's exactly how you compare and contrast things in order to show the similarities and differences ... bro. YOUR point is that they are both stupid and do similar things. MY point is that you keep drawing false equivalencies to support your point. I'm showing that by staying completely within the bounds (things right wing nuts did that left wing nuts have not) you created when you invented the stupid game. Hate the game, not the player.

Jan 8, 21 11:15 am  · 
 · 

11. Got that 'more reasonable' member of your family* to stop saying, "you're overreacting," and instead say, "I guess you were right all along." 




*For me it was my sister, my wife's grandfather and his second wife.

Jan 8, 21 11:20 am  · 
2  · 

I won't post it, but my sister wrote quite a thoughtful Facebook post about how she also changed her party registration (something she held from when she was 18-years-old) and voted a straight ticket for the first time ever last year because she could not stomach what the Republican Party had become. So it's not like #11 came out of nowhere for her, but there was definitely a change in her attitude to what she had considered exaggeration previously ... and that did come about because of Wednesday's attempted coup.

Jan 8, 21 1:25 pm  · 
1  · 
sameolddoctor
In this stupid game of yours jla-x, would the actions of the president, who is actually a right winger be acceptable? MOST of the stuff he’s done have not been done by any democrat OR Republican in this history or this country.
Jan 7, 21 3:59 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

Again what people are calling out is this perverse reflex you have, in which you insist on couching criticism of the right inside of criticism of the left, constructing a false-equivalence between the two. You're incapable of letting a conversation about what after yesterday is a literal attempted coup against democracy stand on its own. I'm not even sure you're smart enough to realize you're doing it, but you are in effect minimizing the horror of an authoritarian uprising by finding superficial similarities with social justice uprisings in order to - what, own the god damn libs? How childish. How completely fucking inane. Knock it off.

Jan 7, 21 4:31 pm  · 
9  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Damn. Tduds FTW.

Jan 7, 21 4:35 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

"Stop killing black people" and "Invalidate a democratic election" are not opposite sides of a coin unless you reduce them to a fantastically simple "left/right" binary. Try again, dummy.

Jan 7, 21 4:40 pm  · 
6  · 
tduds

The Civil War also arose out of a long and complex degeneration, but I think we can pretty universally agree which side was in the wrong there.

Jan 7, 21 4:45 pm  · 
5  · 

^not if they both used violence.

Narrator: They did both use violence.

I guess it's all the same then.

Narrator: It's not all the same.

Jan 7, 21 4:52 pm  · 
6  · 
Wood Guy

"Stop killing black people" and "Invalidate a democratic election" are not opposite sides of a coin"--in one way they are--both sides are people who feel like they are getting the shit end of the stick in a big way. The difference, though, and this is important--is that one side really is getting the shit end of the stick.

Jan 7, 21 5:10 pm  · 
10  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Damn Wood! Another FTW.

Jan 7, 21 5:17 pm  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

.

Jan 7, 21 5:17 pm  · 
4  · 

Ted Kaczynski probably believed he was getting the shit end of the stick too. Doesn't mean his actions are comparable to anything we've been talking about today. See false equivalency again.

Wait, hang on ... just figured out another one to add to the list above.

Jan 7, 21 5:48 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

"If an area experiences a wave of robberies and rapes, do we separate the rapes from the robberies or look at the overall crime wave and examine to causes?" 

Do we barge into the conversations of rape victims to yell about the robberies? No, because that would be a real asshole thing to do. Perhaps you see the parallel here.

Jan 7, 21 5:54 pm  · 
6  · 
tduds

Just to be perfectly clear, since this is not the first time I've had to say this and you seem to be almost willfully unable to acknowledge it: I'm not *defending* anything, I'm calling out your behavior as obnoxious.

Jan 7, 21 6:01 pm  · 
6  · 

Aren't we all technically victims of subverted democracy?

Jan 7, 21 6:14 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

something tells me xlax is losing hard.

he must have a thing for punishment.

Jan 7, 21 6:16 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

A humiliation fetish would explain so much about the right-libertarian folks I encounter online.

Jan 7, 21 6:41 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

Spewing bullshit ad infinitum and declaring victory when everyone is finally too sick of you to respond seriously is also a tactic I run into a lot online.

Jan 7, 21 7:49 pm  · 
5  · 
SneakyPete

last post, I win

Jan 7, 21 7:56 pm  · 
2  · 
Wood Guy

I had to go run a webinar--we had the architect, builder and consultant for the second-ever Living Building Challenge house on BS + Beer tonight. Amazing project. Anyway... X-JLA, you are still wrong. There are similarities to the two sides but they are different. I understand the Trumpist side better than you might think. My community is mostly Trumpers and my family is a long line of rednecks on both sides (Scots-Irish, same as Appalachia settlers) and I did not grow up privileged. I could easily be one of them. But I can think critically, have travelled, worked in the building trades and can see to some degree what minorities have to deal with, and it's not the same. It's objectively different. While poor white assholes (again, I'm talking about specific people I know and am related to) feel shat upon, it's 100% their own doing and that of their upbringing. That's not the same as hundreds of years of systemic racism that is not fair to people with skin that's not pale pink. When the motivations are that different, even if the actions look somewhat similar, they are not the same at heart.

Sorry Pete.

Jan 7, 21 8:45 pm  · 
5  · 
SneakyPete

It's ok; I still win. See?

Jan 7, 21 8:46 pm  · 
4  · 
Wood Guy

There is a perceived class struggle, absolutely. Nobody is systematically trying to keep poor white people poor, except for poor white people.

Jan 8, 21 11:09 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

Look what you've done - in just one day you turned "Hey maybe invading the US Capitol to overthrow democracy is bad" into "Well working class anxiety, global capitalism, bla bla bla" 

You seem to be pathologically, infuriatingly incapable of seeing the trees for the forest. You can't let a point just be a point. You're the “If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe” of conversation. Exhausting.

Jan 8, 21 12:09 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

And yet millions of people still manage to simply make a fucking apple pie in a couple of hours.

Jan 8, 21 12:24 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

Anyway, invading the US Capitol to overthrow democracy is bad. I will not be taking questions.

Jan 8, 21 12:25 pm  · 
3  · 
square.

i have him on ignore, but if he is indeed talking about class struggle and working class anxiety, utilizing a definitively marxist perspective, we can finally put to rest that he is a clever troll, and instead confirm that he is a moron.

i posted my original "both sides" post as a final chance for xlax to redeem himself. instead, like much of america, we've seen the true depths of his depravity and lunacy. it's unbelievably pathetic and sad that he can't simply, unequivocally condemn what happened at the capital without resorting to his typical talking points, which, are the exact same points he's been parroting and fetishizing for years.

definition of insanity folks. i encourage everyone to stop giving oxygen to this completely stupid fire.

Jan 8, 21 12:35 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

"Yes, but" NO. NO BUT.

Jan 8, 21 12:37 pm  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

You cannot win because I already won. Winning.

Jan 8, 21 12:46 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

"I can also walk and chew gum." To extend the analogy, I'd suggest in this thread we're trying to chew gum while sitting and you're running in circles bitching that no one is walking. 

I'm running out of different ways to say that I *get* what you're saying, I just think it's derailing a more interesting conversation, which is annoying.

Jan 8, 21 1:20 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Maybe the better tactic is to just plow ahead with the interesting conversation and simply mute you. Can't say I didn't try.

Jan 8, 21 1:21 pm  · 
4  · 
Wood Guy

Giving up on discussing issues with someone is not the same as losing the debate.

Jan 8, 21 1:30 pm  · 
4  · 

What's frustrating is that we are pointing to a tree and saying, "This tree is on fire and it will burn down the entire forest if we don't do anything about it." 

And you are saying, "Yeah, but there are other trees in the forest that are problematic and if left alone might threaten the forest too." 

To which we respond, "Yeah, not disagreeing with that. We can get to those trees later, but right now we have to do something about the one that's on fire in order to save the forest." 

Then you respond, "Yeah, but it's the same thing. They are both threatening the health of the forest." 

And we say, "That's a false equivalency. One is much more of a dire and immediate threat." 

And you say, "They are both threats. It's the same thing. I win." 

And we say, "No, again it's a false equivalency. You're an idiot." 

And you say, "You all know I'm right." 

And we say, "No, you're an idiot."

Jan 8, 21 1:37 pm  · 
4  · 

And then I finally decide to put you on ignore

Jan 8, 21 1:39 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

jla: My galaxy brain is capable of putting events in larger contexts, its your fault if you don't want to do that. 

also jla: HURR HURR BLUE STATES BAD RED STATES GOOD CUZ PPL MOVE

Jan 8, 21 2:07 pm  · 
3  · 
randomised


...

Jan 7, 21 6:35 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

Ok I chuckled. Good one.

Jan 7, 21 6:40 pm  · 
2  · 
randomised

A bit of comic relief in these idiocratic times...

Jan 7, 21 6:49 pm  · 
 · 
sameolddoctor

rando, so now you are off the Trump bandwagon?

Jan 8, 21 9:26 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

.

Jan 7, 21 8:46 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Really hope he can live up to all the expectations, because this is how Associated Press chooses to picture Biden, with halo and everything...




Jan 8, 21 2:17 am  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

That's funny, but he is catholic, so is that blasphemy?

Jan 8, 21 7:57 am  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

I’m a big fan of blasphemy.

Jan 8, 21 8:51 am  · 
4  · 
Non Sequitur

jla, maybe you need glasses?

Jan 8, 21 11:03 am  · 
3  · 
Non Sequitur

i had a thought: trump is like that disgruntled intern that explodes all the hatches in autoCAD on their last day of work. 

Jan 8, 21 8:53 am  · 
4  · 
Bench

More like the disgruntled intern who takes a shit on someone's desk right before he's escorted out of the building by security. Its not really architecture-specific, but more accurate.

Jan 8, 21 11:33 am  · 
2  · 
tduds

More like the principal who deletes the entire project server and quietly walks out of the office shortly before evidence of massive embezzlement is unearthed.

Jan 8, 21 12:14 pm  · 
5  · 

Seen on twitter, don't know if true:


Jan 8, 21 3:01 pm  · 
4  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

*was an architect.

Jan 8, 21 5:58 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

I hear he's was there to make sure the trads were repping, and the neo-classical didn't get Morphosis'd.

Jan 8, 21 5:59 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Who’d have thought? 


Jan 8, 21 4:35 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

"For me, it's important from the group and the people around me to see that side of things, to see the truth," John Sullivan said Wednesday night. "I don't care, like what side you're on, you should just see it raw." https://www.ksl.com/article/50083768/utah-activist-inside-us-capitol-says-woman-killed-was-first-to-try-to-enter-house-chamber

Jan 8, 21 4:56 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Half the far-right is trying to paint this as an "Antifa false flag" and the other half of them are posting selfies from in the Capitol Rotunda & bragging about what they did. Can't believe you believed it.

Jan 8, 21 4:56 pm  · 
 · 
bowling_ball

Whaaaaaa?

Jan 8, 21 4:57 pm  · 
 · 
bowling_ball

Did he think they were there to kidnap Trump?

Jan 8, 21 4:58 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

LETS RUN WITH THIS AND IGNORE THE REST GUYS

Jan 8, 21 5:24 pm  · 
2  · 
SneakyPete

I mean, obviously this guy is the only person at fault, right? Personal responsibility for everyone who was there is on this guy, right? RIGHT GUYS?

Jan 8, 21 5:25 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Brought to you by the folks who gave us the One Drop Rule.

Jan 8, 21 5:28 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Well, if that fucking KKKunt Andy says he's antifa, it must be true.

Jan 8, 21 5:56 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

You're a simp.

Jan 8, 21 6:16 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

If you're cozying up to white nationalists, you're one of them . I don't care what your race is.

Jan 8, 21 6:22 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Will Pelosi call for an impeachment vote? Now that Murkowsi found a bit of her spine will the Senate vote to remove?

Jan 8, 21 5:51 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

I'm still trying to decide if I should do it, not for me, but for the people.

Jan 8, 21 6:36 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

What's great is this laxative shitstain talking about this seditionist getting to live, love, and got got. Or, fucked around and found out. But nada about the popo being murdered by the seditionists. 

Oh, and Trump banned from Twitter....haaaaaaaha.....

Jan 8, 21 6:43 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

What's that you say? You're quitting twitter?

Jan 8, 21 8:27 pm  · 
 · 
sameolddoctor

Jla, the problem with your rhetoric is that even though you claim to dislike Trump, a lot of what you say sounds a lot like him. And this is the problem in libertarian thought. It sounds so militant and nutso, very much like Trump.

Jan 8, 21 9:25 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

You know how when children tell you something over, and over again, with such certainty that if try to reason with them you only get more confounded? Yeah, that.

Jan 8, 21 9:29 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Good Riddance.


https://www.npr.org/2021/01/08...

Jan 8, 21 7:59 pm  · 
4  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Say when, and it can happen...

Jan 8, 21 8:06 pm  · 
 · 
sameolddoctor

Speaking of "both sides are the same"

Jan 8, 21 9:32 pm  · 
4  ·  1
tduds

...

Jan 10, 21 1:34 pm  · 
4  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

First

Jan 10, 21 1:52 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

confused third.

Jan 10, 21 2:20 pm  · 
2  · 

Unicor's Cheap Prison Labor Will Help Rebuild the Capitol (jezebel.com)

OK I don't believe *everything* I read on leftish websites, but I don't have any difficulty at all believing this to be true: rioters destroy furniture in the capitol, entity with federal contract  repairs/replaces furniture using a "cost-effective labor pool" aka prisoners at near-slave wages.

This country just sucks. It sucks.


Jan 11, 21 11:45 am  · 
2  · 

Capitalism at its finest. Hide the real costs by exploiting others.

Jan 11, 21 12:19 pm  · 
3  ·  1
tduds

No it doesn't.

Jan 11, 21 12:41 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

No it doesn't.

Jan 11, 21 1:26 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Profit is extracted. Not communist.

Jan 11, 21 2:34 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

lol you think that shit's exclusive to communism? Come on.

Jan 11, 21 3:00 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Anyway abolish prison labor. I think we can all agree on that.

Jan 11, 21 3:01 pm  · 
1  · 

I'm more in favor of prison labor than I am against it. However, the fine print is that the prison labor should have the same workplace protections as non-incarcerated workers, including minimum wage. 

As a kid I watched, and got to know some of, the prison laborers building my town's skate park. Those guys were happy to be out doing something rather than sitting around a cell doing nothing. They were almost all at the end of their sentences and it was somewhat of a privilege or a reward for good behavior to be able to be out in the world working. I think it can also be helpful in transitioning to life outside prison. There is a lot more that needs to be reformed in our prison system ... this is just one part of it, and not even the full breadth of what I'd like to see changed with regard to prison labor.

Jan 11, 21 6:45 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Great points. 

Abolish the part of the 13th Amendment that allows prison slavery.

Jan 11, 21 6:50 pm  · 
4  · 

I forget sometimes that the abolishment of slavery actually codifies slavery to be allowed for criminal punishment. We really are a messed up country.

Jan 11, 21 7:19 pm  · 
2  · 
apscoradiales

Standing on the sidelines, and thinking out loud. This is not as dangerous to American "democracy" as protests against Vietnam War were back in the sixties. Remember that? Or are most people here to young to recall that? '60's shaped America - and the rest of the World - for many years, and still do today.


Jan 11, 21 12:01 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

you sure about that?

Jan 11, 21 12:02 pm  · 
 · 
apscoradiales

Pretty sure. Every once in a while when we enter some crisis, we think, oh boy, this is the worst it has ever been. The World is coming to an end! Rather selfish on our part.

No, it is not. Called life - shit happens every so often.

Spring is coming up, and we're a little bit closer to the end of this BS virus. I don't see a horde of Mongols riding across the Bering Straight. Think positive.

Jan 11, 21 12:05 pm  · 
 · 
square.

i won't argue with the fact that the 60's shaped america- the self-indulgent, individualized "revolution" produced short-lived hippies, ripe for the coming reganism, who have inhibited any possible collective effort to combat our biggest existential threat, climate change. spring is certainly coming, though it will be warmer than the last spring, just like the spring before it.

i'm hopeful this "consensus" is being dismantled before our eyes.

Jan 11, 21 12:08 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

If you're suggesting that there is a risk of this nascent movement might devolve into the sort of Boomer selfishness the 60s did, sure. But being a Pollyanna is helping nobody.

Jan 11, 21 1:56 pm  · 
 · 
square.

no, just talking about the 60s. the only thing this "movement" has done, along with the appeasement of trump in general, is to expose reganism and trickle-down economics for what it really is: complete bullshit.

Jan 11, 21 2:11 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

"60's shaped America - and the rest of the World - for many years, and still do today."

The same pacifists that were protesting against the Vietnam war were/are ridiculing Trump for avoiding being sent to an illegal war to kill innocent civilians. I would argue it didn't shape the world as much as it did distort it!

Jan 12, 21 3:25 am  · 
 · 
tduds

"Change the system but in the meantime at least hold everyone within the system to a similar standard" is not a contradiction. That the rich were able to use their money and influence to cheat the system, while the poor were not, is just one of the gross injustices of the Vietnam War (and Iraq, and Afghanistan, and...)

Jan 12, 21 10:57 am  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

"The same pacifists that were protesting against the Vietnam war were/are ridiculing Trump for avoiding being sent to an illegal war to kill innocent civilians. "

Yeah, that checks out. They are against war and they are angered by the actions of a man -who dodged the draft- running under and being elected by the party which is pro-war. This is hypocrisy, but not the hypocrisy you are trying to claim. 

Jan 12, 21 2:05 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Watered down impeachment articles? OF COURSE!

Demands for unity by the offending party? OF COURSE!

A president elected by righteous anger and justified rage who will inevitably prove feckless and easy to manipulate into losing the majority in two years? OF COURSE!

Jan 11, 21 2:28 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

If Democrats treated Republicans the way Republicans treat Democrats, there wouldn't be any Republicans left.

Jan 11, 21 2:40 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Just to clarify I wasn't saying they *should*, just pointing out the difference.

Jan 11, 21 2:57 pm  · 
 · 
square.

i hate being forced to be a part of the democratic party

Jan 11, 21 3:36 pm  · 
4  · 

I hate being forced into any false binary just to feel like my voice has any effect.

Jan 11, 21 3:53 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

I imagine most of us on the left here would identify as 'DINOs'. I'm nominally a Democratic Party member but only so I can vote in primary elections. The first Tuesday in November is not where my politics begin or end, and voting is perhaps the least influential political act I make all year.

Jan 11, 21 4:41 pm  · 
1  · 

If Republicans treated other Republicans the way Democrats treat other Democrats, there wouldn't be any Republicans left. 

Trump is going to give Jim Jordan the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Schumer told Franken to resign or be censured.

Jan 11, 21 5:28 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Can you be a member of both Republican and the Democratic Party? Would be great to be able to vote for a candidate in a primary of the party you'd not even consider voting for in the real election. Just to get the other party more aligned with your own views...A bit like Russia's Alexei Navalny's Smart Voting tactic against Putin's dominant United Russia.

Jan 11, 21 5:38 pm  · 
 · 

Some states have open primaries in which you do not have to be a member of the party in order to participate. There's usually some crossing of people into the Democratic primaries when it's a Republican incumbent, or vice versa ... but it's usually not sufficient to make that much of a difference. I could be wrong on that last part though. I haven't done much research into it.

Jan 11, 21 5:44 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Switching is annoying, means you get on a bunch of lists for mailers you don't want. and also means that if you ever choose to run for office you have a mixed history open to the public to see.

Jan 11, 21 5:49 pm  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

I'm a registered Independent, and get mailers for both D's and R's. I was briefly registered as a Green Independent, currently the most viable third party, which is not saying much.

Jan 11, 21 6:12 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

EA - I believe that even in states with open primaries you can only vote in one of the primaries.

Jan 11, 21 6:20 pm  · 
 · 

tduds, I'm fairly certain that is correct. I could have made that more clear in my earlier response.

As an example, I went to the first state listed in the Wikipedia article I posted earlier ... Alabama. They do not allow you to participate in both primaries. You have to choose one.

Jan 11, 21 6:31 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

thanks all for clearing that up about primaries...

Jan 12, 21 3:19 am  · 
 · 
tduds

It's a very dumb system we have. We could easily change it but some people like to pretend its holy.

Jan 12, 21 10:50 am  · 
1  · 

"If Democrats treated Republicans the way Republicans treat Democrats, there wouldn't be any Republicans left."

I want to dive into this and see where it leads. Give us specific scenarios. It will mostly be exaggeration and speculation, but I'm in need of a bit of catharsis at the moment.

Jan 11, 21 5:15 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Think of the heads that would have rolled had Robert Muller been given the broad and unchecked investigative mandate given to Ken Starr. Or if, say, Rahm Emmanuel was appointed instead of Muller.

Jan 11, 21 7:57 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

When it became necessary to appoint a special counsel to investigate President Trump, in order to avoid accusations of political favoritism, a Republican was appointed. And when it became necessary to appoint a special counsel to investigate President Clinton, in order to avoid accusations of political favoritism, a Republican was appointed.

Jan 11, 21 7:58 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

There's a good quip that's been going around: It's like the Republicans & the Democrats were playing chess, and the Republicans flipped the table and set the house on fire. And the Democrats are still trying to figure out how to win the chess game. 

The implicit thru-line of the contemporary GOP since at least Gingrich is that the Democratic Party has no right to govern, and they will break whatever rules necessary - up to and including undermining the democratic process itself - in order to prevent the Democrats from doing anything. The Democrats, meanwhile, are trying to fix the system with "resolutions" and appeals to "civility." 

It ain't gonna work. I don't know how we get back to business without first playing a little hardball. Put out the damn fire.

Jan 11, 21 8:02 pm  · 
3  · 

Well ... I was hoping for more comedic catharsis rather than a historical walk down memory lane. Now I'm just depressed even more because if the Democrats even think about playing hardball they have to check the polls first, or whatever. Even then, with overwhelming public support, the Republicans still seem to make them look like partisan hacks.

Jan 11, 21 8:08 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Sorry, I'll be back with some jokes.

Jan 11, 21 8:15 pm  · 
1  · 

The special counsel investigation thing was pretty funny. I chuckled at that.

The chess game is too realistic to be funny. I do tend to agree that Dems will break their backs trying to follow the "rules" while the Reps are simply changing the rules to do whatever they want. I.e. the "rule" that was made to deny Merrick Garland a SCOTUS seat, and also used to give Amy Coney Barrett one.

Jan 11, 21 8:21 pm  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

I like to call her Amy Barrett, just to tweak conservative nipples.

Jan 11, 21 8:32 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

I think you mean Amy HUSSEIN Barret.

Jan 11, 21 8:35 pm  · 
1  · 

Interesting. In a thread where we are talking about Dems treating Repubs like Repubs treat Dems ... I had the knee-jerk reaction to say I used her name as I did because I didn't want to stoop to their level and call her Amy Covid Barrett.

Jan 11, 21 10:14 pm  · 
1  · 

Democrats be like, "We solemnly and with regret must inform VP Pence that we are going to wait for him to do something before we have a Zoom meeting to discuss whether or not we should do anything." 

Republicans be like, "LOL, we would have had half a dozen investigations opened already like we did after Benghazi. Ahem, but yeah, we need unity right now and investigations only sow division."

Jan 11, 21 10:35 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Yes exactly.

Jan 12, 21 10:49 am  · 
 · 
randomised

Well, as an innocent bystander my gut says that Republicans do seem to act more often out of spite towards Democrats, where Democrats try to act according to their political believes and principles...

Jan 12, 21 11:02 am  · 
3  · 
Wood Guy

Republicans are dumb, so they fight. Democrats are intelligent, so they argue. Unfortunately fighting seems to be more effective, much of the time.

Jan 12, 21 11:17 am  · 
2  · 

Careful Wood Guy, jla is going to come in here and tell you fighting is never the answer and that the revolution will be achieved through intellect and education ... which Republicans have defunded every chance they get so they can buy another fighter jet.

Jan 12, 21 11:54 am  · 
4  · 
Wood Guy

Yeah I know I shouldn't stir the pot. My comment was somewhat tongue in cheek, but not too far from the truth either. Have you read, "Guns, Germs and Steel"? I'm due for a re-read but the lesson I recall can be extended to say that the Republican strategy is likely to win in the end. You can't reason with someone who actively wants you dead, or wants what you have, and has the tools to get it.

Jan 12, 21 12:17 pm  · 
2  · 
SneakyPete

See: "The Walking Dead"

Jan 12, 21 1:02 pm  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

X-jla, have you read the book I mentioned? I agree that the things you value are important. They are important to many who vote blue. They are not important to those who vote red. I disagree that music and literature have been more influential than violence. The US is formed by violence and it's one of our defining features.

Jan 12, 21 1:27 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Most of American culture is an amalgam, and much of it was gathered through violence. This doesn't invalidate it, but we need to acknowledge it.

Jan 12, 21 1:34 pm  · 
3  · 

I won't, but one could probably make the argument that violence led to the conditions that allowed not only American culture, but a lot of the world's culture to develop and flourish. If not that, at least allowed for it to spread throughout the world and be the soft power that might bring about any revolutionary change in someone else's culture. And yes, we need to acknowledge it, but not in the build statues to remember our heritage sort of way.

Jan 12, 21 4:46 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Are you suggesting "manifest destiny" was nonviolent?

Jan 13, 21 12:34 pm  · 
1  · 

Wait!? Did jla try to refute my statement that violence led to conditions allowing culture to flourish, develop, and/or spread with "manifest destiny" ... and tried to suggest it was nonviolent!?!!

Edit: I'll just leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Jan 13, 21 12:38 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

None of that made much sense at all.

Jan 14, 21 4:25 pm  · 
1  · 

Thanks tduds, guess I don't really need to read any of it anyway then.

Jan 14, 21 5:15 pm  · 
 · 

... unmuted for a minute to see what crap jla was slinging trying to redecorate the place. 

"In other words, we the people have a much greater effect in our creative and cultural endeavors than in the political sphere. We can instigate Progress more by focusing on our crafts, our minds, our personal relationships, and our community, than trying to tinker with politics.

I understand that's what you are saying, however, you're not doing it as you "tinker with politics" here. You should be focusing on your "creative and cultural endeavors [rather] than the political sphere." 

You are here to just call out the hypocrisy ... trying calling it out in yourself. Take a look at your commenting and posting history and decide whether you've been paying more attention to "instigat[ing] [p]rogress" by crafts, personal relationships, etc. ... or by "tinker[ing] with politics." 

Back on mute ...

Jan 15, 21 11:44 am  · 
1  · 

Ok last time ... 

Do you think Marx and Marxism just popped up out of a vacuum of non-violence? Where was Marx born? What led to the socio-economic status he enjoyed that let him be a philosopher? You think the class struggles he was writing about didn't have some type of violence entwined in them? 

Now do the same for your "manifest destiny" comment, and any other example you want to think of. Let me know if you can come up with anything other than "God created the heavens and the earth" that wasn't predicated on some type of violence. Even the creation thing is debated though ... was the big bang violent?

Jan 15, 21 12:10 pm  · 
 · 

I'll also reiterate for those who might forget or have selective memories. I'm not advocating for violence of any sort. I'm just pointing out that it has a place in our history and we should acknowledge it.

Jan 15, 21 12:21 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

There's no thesis with jla, only contrarianism. I know I've said this before, but I think I'm finally done with it.

Jan 15, 21 12:23 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

When people opt to control our offline public space with private funds they're labelled fascist (Schumacher), so is big tech fascist when they try to control our online public space and the ideas that are allowed to circulate there?

Jan 12, 21 4:32 am  · 
 · 
bowling_ball

When that 'control' is in an effort to silence violent insurrection? I'll give it a pass. Nice try with the"whataboutism" though. Maybe next time.

Jan 12, 21 9:30 am  · 
2  · 
randomised

You'll give that fascism by big tech a pass bb? Good to know ;-)

Jan 12, 21 10:01 am  · 
 · 
tduds

A lot of tech CEOs and big VC names seem to have authoritarian impulses, yes.

Jan 12, 21 10:48 am  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Fascism? How about "Anarcho-capitalism". Yeah, it sucks, and yeah I'd prefer a platform that offered real accountability, but then what does that look like? I've been banned from Twitter for calling out racists, for wishing The Orange Shitgibbon a Happy Coronary Day

Jan 12, 21 10:56 am  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

One can dislike Schumacher and Google at the same time without falsely equating them to score imaginary points on an internet message board, sure.

Jan 12, 21 11:06 am  · 
3  · 
bowling_ball

randomized, you're comparing apples to blue jeans. TAKING a PUBLIC resource away, and ENFORCING rules against inciting violence by a PRIVATE company are not at all the same thing. But you righties just love to repeat "whatabout" until you're blue in the face. You may as well keep trying, but nobody's listening. (BTW I made the important words IN ALL CAPS so you could follow)

Jan 12, 21 11:06 am  · 
1  · 
randomised

I'm not falsely equating them, I'm simply equating them as do others here, see:

"A lot of tech CEOs and big VC names seem to have authoritarian impulses, yes."

I'm simply comparing how online and offline public space is being (proposed to be) controlled and how people label such control mechanisms fascism in the one but dare not in the other. Use it to your advantage, or not...what do I care.

Jan 12, 21 11:55 am  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Public space is being bought by companies or being given to companies by the government and controlled by the companies for the future. The internet space was never public. This is not to say I agree with this, but it's a distinction that the original question doesn't account for.

Jan 12, 21 12:15 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

The technology for a decentralized internet already exists. It's called "the internet". The money is the problem that needs solving.

Jan 12, 21 12:41 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

The racists can have reddit, but they want to digitally assault people with impunity.

Jan 12, 21 12:50 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

A very well-written (and, gasp, conservative!) perspective on this sort of thing is Matt Stoller. I subscribed to his newsletter "BIG" (https://mattstoller.substack.com/) a while back. It's not all mindblowing, but it provides a good insight into the history of lax oversight surrounding monopolies in general has led to the current state of tech & the internet.

Jan 12, 21 1:00 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Which article would you recommend to start?

Jan 12, 21 1:01 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

This was the one that led me to subscribe: https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/wework-and-counterfeit-capitalism This is also a good starting point as its one of his first essays: https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/break-ups-and-stock-prices

Jan 12, 21 1:13 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Instead of listening to the cacophony of garbage from a serial idiot, go and read this brief NYT piece. 

Jamie Raskin

Jan 12, 21 5:02 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

“Tell me, why is Ronald Reagan dead but Jimmy Carter still alive? I’ll tell you, it’s anti-conservative bias..."

https://politics.theonion.com/...

Jan 12, 21 6:11 pm  · 
3  · 
axonapoplectic

Looking more likely that the senate has the votes to convict. McConnell’s office leaked that they want to purge the Trump faction from the party (and he doesn’t leak, so this seems pretty big - does that mean they’re going to purge a bunch of GOP legislature too?).  At least 3 house GOP are publicly saying they will vote for impeachment (my guess is likely at least a dozen or more will eventually vote to impeach).


My question is what is the political calculus for not invoking the 24th amendment. 

Jan 12, 21 10:27 pm  · 
 · 

Easier to slow walk an impeachment trial in the senate and disrupt confirmation votes for Biden’s cabinet?

Jan 12, 21 11:13 pm  · 
 · 

Better for the party to claim it was done as a party rather than by just a few cabinet members and Pence?

Jan 12, 21 11:15 pm  · 
 · 

The cabinet is too loyal to Trump?

Jan 12, 21 11:17 pm  · 
 · 

After conviction in the senate McConnell can bar trump from holding future office, but they can’t do that with the 25th?

Jan 12, 21 11:22 pm  · 
 · 
axonapoplectic

4 GOP reps now. I think the whole party coming together to condemn trump is probably closer to the real answer.

Jan 12, 21 11:27 pm  · 
 · 

Personally, I think McConnell is really pissed about it and has had enough of Trumpism. It worked well enough up until now to get his judges, but seeing Georgia go blue and lose control of the senate was too much and he’s ready to purge. As long as the articles aren’t too off the mark he'll be happy to convict and probably take the credit for leading the party back to some semblance of dignity. Bar is set pretty low. I do think he’s taking a gamble with the base, but he’s not up for re-election in the next few years anyway so it’s kind of not his problem, but still his problem. I don’t know, maybe he’s thinking of retiring after this term and if he succeeds he goes out on a high, and if not he won’t care ... his legacy is set with his judges.

Jan 12, 21 11:48 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Perhaps Trump is just a troll sent in by the Democrats to destroy the Republican Party from the inside...

Jan 13, 21 2:25 am  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

Yeah. That's totally it.

Jan 13, 21 2:45 am  · 
2  · 
randomised

I knew it!

Jan 13, 21 2:55 am  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

EA, you are ascribing feelings to Mitch that I honestly don't think he possesses. He cares about power and nothing else. His change of tune is not a moral one, it's a calculated one.

Jan 13, 21 8:32 am  · 
3  · 
square.

agree with wood guy on this one- moscow mitch is a shrewd politician, and trump is no longer useful to him. in fact, keeping him a relevant force would only fuck things up for the republicans in the future.

Jan 13, 21 9:25 am  · 
1  · 

WG, totally agree. Aside from the rapid-fire brainstorming [joking] portion, I'm not sure I'm attributing any feelings (except frustration at Trump's idiocy) or morals to Mitch. I think his calculation is that he sucked all he needed from Trump the last 4 years and is ready to discard the withered husk and look for his next prey. I think he's also calculated that if he can be seen as the voice of reason in the party, that's more power he can use to be kingmaker in 2024. That his wife was one of the first to resign, to me says he saw the writing on the wall well before yesterday's NYT story. Mitch is an opportunist and he's done his calculus and sees an opportunity here. If not, he'd just be on media blackout until the Biden's inauguration.

Jan 13, 21 12:11 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

imagine being so distorted by a view that both sides are the same, that you think mitch mcconnell and bernie sanders are equivalents.

Jan 13, 21 12:27 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Mitch cares about one thing - controlling the senate. He lost that, both electorally and physically, on Jan 6th. He decided Trump is responsible for that loss, so it's time to purge Trump.

Jan 13, 21 12:38 pm  · 
2  · 
liberty bell

Six Supreme Court justices who call themselves “Pro-life” executed a human, a US citizen, last night.


The god she believes in just handed Amy Coney Barrett an opportunity to show grace, and instead Amy chose murder. Suuuuuuper pro-life of her!

Jan 13, 21 7:27 am  · 
4  · 
Wood Guy

They only care about fetal tissue. By the time the fetus is born they have lost interest.

Jan 13, 21 8:30 am  · 
4  · 
Non Sequitur

M'erca!

insert flying bald eagles, flags, rockets, ted nugent, blind patriotism, etc.  

Jan 13, 21 8:37 am  · 
3  · 
Non Sequitur

You’re right jla. I’ve seen some in the wild up here too.

Jan 13, 21 9:41 am  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

Army Coney Island is gross.

Jan 13, 21 11:13 am  · 
1  · 

Greenlighting executions is about all the newest pro-life justice has done since she was sworn in.

Jan 13, 21 12:13 pm  · 
2  · 
randomised

No civilised country should have capital punishment, maybe with the Democrats now in the driving seat it’s finally time to make it right...no excuses.

Jan 13, 21 12:52 pm  · 
4  · 
axonapoplectic

I can’t keep up with the news. A house member (former military) is claiming some of her colleagues were doing what appeared to be recon the day before - alluding that it may have been people who eventually got arrested for storming the Capitol. This and other reports (military brass note about Biden being president elect, former defense officials warning). Also it appears some reps discovered their office security systems had been tampered with when they went back to shelter in place. It really seems like an inside job.

I think in the next few weeks we will see expulsions and arrests - but I’m getting really worried about the future of this country.

Jan 13, 21 11:40 am  · 
2  · 

I think it will be interesting to see how this all works out and what investigations reveal. In my frustrated opinion right now, any politician calling for unity and healing right now is trying to cover up their aiding and abetting.

Jan 13, 21 12:19 pm  · 
3  · 
axonapoplectic

Rep clyburn said the mob bipassed the door with his name on it and found an unmarked room in an out of the way area where he does most of his work and stormed that office. The comptroller’s unmarked office was ransacked. The comptroller keeps the electoral college ballots (which were moved to a secure location) - how would some random mob know exactly where the comptroller’s unmarked office was and what his role was? I really seems like they had inside help.

Jan 13, 21 2:16 pm  · 
2  · 
bowling_ball

Who doesn't think this was helped by some on the inside? It had to be at some level. We've all seen the videos of the cops opening gates and doors.

Jan 13, 21 7:02 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Sounds like both have a very similar level of “proof”. 

incorrect.

Jan 14, 21 2:39 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

No, I'm just going to wait until we see what information comes from the investigations taking place and continue to live in reality.

Jan 14, 21 4:22 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Sure I did. And there were. And they found nothing.

Jan 14, 21 7:40 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

So I should just let people believe in lies so they don't get butthurt and start a civil war? That's very dumb, even for you.

& also "Half" is a gross overstatement. 

Jan 14, 21 8:11 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

But you're leaning on the media and snarky Tweets as evidence that a real "investigation" into voting irregularities didn't occur, even though - in literally dozens of jurisdictions and court cases - claims were investigated and nothing was found.

Jan 15, 21 11:03 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

Pardon the twitter link but this is not snark, it's a thread of journalistic & legal sources: https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1324435797374808066

Jan 15, 21 11:04 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

House of Representatives about to deliver me a birthday present.

Jan 13, 21 12:42 pm  · 
5  · 

Happy birthday!

Jan 13, 21 12:47 pm  · 
3  · 
SneakyPete

Happy birthday!

Jan 13, 21 1:06 pm  · 
1  · 
atelier nobody

Hey, we're almost Birthday Buddies - mine was yesterday. Congratulations on another trip around the Sun!

Jan 13, 21 1:51 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Happy Birthday fellow Capricorn!

Jan 13, 21 3:56 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

Capri-what? oh no... not horrorscopes.

signed, a OPHIUCHUS.

Jan 13, 21 4:01 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

My entire knowledge of astrology is stereotypes about Capricorns that I made up, because I am a Capricorn married to another Capricorn who likes astrology.

Jan 13, 21 4:03 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

qed. sorry... not sorry. sorry for not being sorry.

Jan 13, 21 4:06 pm  · 
 · 

Airbnb to Block and Cancel D.C. Reservations During Inauguration: https://news.airbnb.com/airbnb...

Press release says guests will be refunded in full, and hosts will be paid in full at Airbnb's expense. If you were a guest and you know the property will remain vacant ... what's to stop you from reaching out to the host for the key/code to stay at the property anyway (assuming of course the host is sympathetic to your cause)?

Jan 13, 21 1:44 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

And just like that, jla derails the point to jab at the left again.

Jan 13, 21 4:03 pm  · 
2  · 
SneakyPete

lack of self control, even when it hurts his (almost non-existent) credibility.

Jan 13, 21 4:25 pm  · 
2  · 
curtkram

that's not consistency jla, it's absolutism

Jan 13, 21 7:54 pm  · 
 · 

Seems relevant...

Jan 13, 21 9:32 pm  · 
4  · 
square.

everything that republicans have stood for in the past few decades (free market, tickle down economics, deficit concerns, blue lives, "family" values, on and on) has been eviscerated by trump. all that is left is a conspiracy laden group of cowards and lunatics.

Jan 14, 21 9:36 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

Just gonna go read page 2 or whatever instead of having this argument again.

Jan 14, 21 12:34 pm  · 
2  · 
SneakyPete

IMPEACHED. AGAIN.

Jan 13, 21 4:24 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Your move, Mitchell

Jan 13, 21 4:27 pm  · 
 · 
proto

the turtle won't move - he's going to hand this off to Schumer & will paint the Democrats with it & obstruct just like he did under Obama

Jan 13, 21 4:57 pm  · 
2  · 

Did I miss the vote! Curse trying to get work done!

Jan 13, 21 5:01 pm  · 
1  · 
axonapoplectic

Several members of the house have asked capitol police to investigate why there were an unusually large number of visitors on the 5th. Apparently tours were ended back in March 2020, and the only way currently for a visitor to enter the building is through a member of Congress or their staff.


what’s concerning to me is that they’re asking about protocols and if visitors are logged by the reps or by the police (as if they don’t know?). They’re also asking for any video surveillance of who may have entered the building the day before, and if they match individuals who were spotted in the building on the 5th. The concern is several people in the mob had intricate knowledge of the layout of the building, as if they had been in there before. If there is a connection that means that some members of Congress (and/or their staff) were involved.


Plus forcing members of Congress to go through metal detectors seems like they suspect someone or multiple people. 

Jan 13, 21 5:05 pm  · 
 · 
atelier nobody

"Plus forcing members of Congress to go through metal detectors seems like they suspect someone or multiple people."

And the Members who are being little bitches about it aren't exactly doing much to assuage those suspicions.

Jan 13, 21 5:49 pm  · 
2  · 
axonapoplectic

This Twitter thread is insane. Journalist outlines the events leading up to the riot and who was involved. This is pretty damning. 

Jan 13, 21 6:53 pm  · 
1  · 
axonapoplectic

Note: US DC attorney is using public corruption prosecutors for the capitol riot. This means public officials are implicated. I am now beginning to wonder if the McConnell delay for the senate trial is that there is more info to come out.

Jan 13, 21 6:59 pm  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

Maybe trump will only pardon them for the charges they already have, and then in 7 days the feds can bring the hammer down.

Jan 15, 21 1:09 pm  · 
 · 
curtkram

the idea of trump being the sitting president on Jan 20 scares me.  I think his cult is going to try something like this again to disrupt the peaceful transition of power.  I stand behind and I stand with the republican party and Mike Pence.  On the other hand, there is this https://www.militarytimes.com/...

Jan 13, 21 7:51 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

You stand behind and with feckless cowards who stood with the traitor in the White House for four fucking years, with Pence all the while being privy to the thoughts and statements that DIDN'T leak. Why is that?

Jan 13, 21 8:17 pm  · 
3  · 
curtkram

because it's time to put the past behind us, start a new year. turn around and fix all the shit we fucked up. I'm at the point I'm so exhausted that I welcome the opportunity to forgive and forget. Let's just stop with all the horrible stuff.

Jan 13, 21 9:13 pm  · 
1  ·  1
SneakyPete

Talk to the republican party, get on board with justice, and THEN we can have a nice long "put the past behind us, start a new year." Republicans broke it, they need to be held to account. No justice: sends the message that you can lie your way to office, lie while in office, lie on the way out, and nobody will do anything except cry about the lack of unity and harmony. No thanks, Trump needs to be barred from office. Trump needs to have the hammer brought down. Period.

Jan 13, 21 9:46 pm  · 
4  · 
curtkram

I stand behind pence sitting in the office of the president of the United States at Biden's inauguration on Jan 20.

Jan 13, 21 10:18 pm  · 
 · 
proto

@curtkram, call your reps & sens and tell them to sack up and publically cleave their tethers to Trump in the most clear & hasty manner. This is their job, not the judiciary's. Otherwise, it's just hand wringing and "thoughts/prayers"...or more frankly: just selfish, politically-expedient standing on the sidelines hoping someone else is going to do the dirty work of leadership.

Jan 14, 21 1:29 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Staggering lack of bravery from the Republican party, as expected.

Jan 14, 21 2:18 pm  · 
4  · 
SneakyPete

I think they all share a single intenstine from which they draw their collective fortitude. That's why they're full of bile and not much else.

Jan 14, 21 2:34 pm  · 
2  · 
bowling_ball

tduds, once again you're much more eloquent than I could ever be. My response to that nonsense would typically be something like "go fuck yourself, you ignorant hypocrite." But I'll refrain this time.

Jan 14, 21 4:47 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

I haven't been drinking, yet ;)

Jan 14, 21 4:49 pm  · 
2  · 
gibbost

@x-jla I'm not sure I can be called out as 'establishment' for simply rooting against evil. I'd like to believe there are more of us on the side of good--regardless of where that puts you on the courage spectrum. I mean really, who roots for Darth Vader or Lex Luthor? And yes, the reckoning taking place within the GOP is the silver lining to the anguish that has been the Trump presidency.

Jan 14, 21 5:17 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

Thanks for reminding the zero people who said something was courageous that it isn't. Do you also interrupt people drinking water to explain that it's wet?

Jan 14, 21 7:39 pm  · 
3  · 
curtkram

how is anit-trump even a thing still? he's done. his supporters are done. we're back to the old fashioned republican v democrat and reaching across the aisle will help everyone.

Jan 14, 21 7:53 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

lol no we're not & no it won't.

If anyone wants to reach across the aisle let the Republicans start. I'm old enough to know how this dumb "unity & civility" trick works and I'm embarrassed how many people still buy into it.

Jan 14, 21 8:12 pm  · 
5  · 
tduds

If unity is the goal, it's on the offender to ask for forgiveness. If that fails, it's on the authority to hold the offender accountable. Demanding that the abused party "get over it" is about impunity, not unity. Frankly one way to begin to rebuild unity would have been an unequivocal, bipartisan, repudiation of the attempted fascism of Donald Trump. They had that chance yesterday & they blew it. 

Peace will come from purging the authoritarians within our ranks, not making nice with them.

Jan 14, 21 8:15 pm  · 
5  · 
tduds

In this case I see the people who sought to overturn a fair democratic election as the abusers, and everyone else in the democracy as the abused.

Jan 14, 21 8:40 pm  · 
3  · 
bowling_ball

x-jla again with the "both sides" and "whatabout". Take it somewhere else, it's not working here.

Jan 14, 21 9:21 pm  · 
4  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

nonsensical bullshit.

Jan 15, 21 10:28 am  · 
4  · 
tduds

"You're right, honey, our marriage was a fraud and I don't deserve to live in this house or see our kids ever." if that's what you think is 'reconcilliation' then ok.

Jan 15, 21 11:19 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

"Conservative belief in pervasive Democratic Party voter fraud goes back decades — and rests on racist and nativist tropes that date back to Reconstruction in the South and Tammany Hall in the North — but the modern obsession with fraud dates back to the 2000 election." https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/15/opinion/voter-fraud-capitol-attack.html 

But sure, the Democratic Party should just be the bigger person here and admit the Republicans are right that their elections are all because of voter fraud and they have no legitimate claim to power. And... then what? You think they're going to just back off?

Fuck your dumb both-sides-ism. It only makes you somehow more annoying than either side .

Jan 15, 21 11:21 am  · 
4  · 
tduds

"The self-described non-partisan who uncritically parrots Fox and WSJ talking points" starring x-jla.

Jan 15, 21 11:48 am  · 
4  ·  1
square.

xlax, when you raise your "points" above high-school level abstractions, man, we'll talk.

Jan 15, 21 12:12 pm  · 
3  ·  1
SneakyPete

You might. I won't.

Jan 15, 21 1:08 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

MIND BLOWN

Jan 15, 21 2:40 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

This page is 5 days old. That's ~25 posts per day in just this thread (almost certainly more since today is only half over).

Get a damn hobby, man. This can't be good for your health. 

Jan 15, 21 1:25 pm  · 
3  · 
SneakyPete

He's our very own Rudy Giuliani. ​ Where once I might have been interested in his opposing views, I now actively avoid him and wish he'd stop showing up because he adds nothing of value to the world and instead causes real harm to my opinion of the human species.

Jan 15, 21 1:37 pm  · 
4  · 
JonathanLivingston

Individual people refuting his positions is a great example of them using their media literacy to rein in their exposure to and the power of misinformation. Eventually, people stop caring, stop listening, and start ignoring, and the misinformation is left with its perfectly intact right to shout its free speech into the ether.

Jan 15, 21 1:43 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

79 as of this post, and I'm constantly chiding myself for getting sucked into your obnoxious tirades. If you were to post less, I would post less. If I were to stop, you would not (as evidenced by past threads where I've checked out for a few weeks).

Jan 15, 21 2:09 pm  · 
2  · 
JonathanLivingston

This is where I become torn. It's exhausting to counter the emotionally held absurdities. It's hard to care that much especially when you know it's just absurd, it should be clear to others. But there is a huge value in combating the spread by fighting it when it pops up. Eventually, you can't contain it. Like a pandemic. A pandemic of stupid that has taken hold of this nation. Transmitted by going online. It's like an STD. I freaking love the free flow of information, I'm sure J-lax does too. We just need to get everyone some misinformation prophylactics.

Jan 15, 21 2:25 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

Just ran through the whole thread - this might not be entirely accurate because I just tallied up "ctrl+f" for each username, so it also accounts for times where other users have mentioned one of our names (which is more for me than you, since "jla" is the go-to mention, while I searched "x-jla"). 

Anyway, of 5,020 posts in this thread, 1,561 are yours (That's 31%!). 933 are mine. And, like I said, I'm aware of and somewhat regretful of my posting frequency here. 

Takin' a break now, I think. Will you?

Jan 15, 21 2:29 pm  · 
2  · 
Wood Guy

"no one trusts msm anymore because of their obvious bias"

I disagree--many of us rely on steadfast media for information and are smart enough to read through any perceived bias. That doesn't mean we're getting 100% unfiltered information, but just because the right can't stop squawking about media bias doesn't mean it's as bad as they say.

Jan 15, 21 5:58 pm  · 
2  · 
randomised

Just get your biased info from both ends of the horseshoe and you’ll end up in the middle?

Jan 15, 21 6:11 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

That's the definition of fallacious.

Jan 15, 21 6:25 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Again with paying attention to when & why people speak up more than what they say: The very idea of "Biased MSM" was a seed planted by Fox News in the 90s (Fair & Balanced!). The goal was to sow distrust throughout - to "flood the zone with bullshit" as they say - so that their own bias would be seen not as a clear propagandist outlier, but as a counterweight to the (not nearly as) biased "liberal" media. It's been 25 years and the talking point is a given reality.

There is, of course, more to it that just that. But it certainly got the ball rolling.

Jan 15, 21 6:39 pm  · 
2  · 

It drives me crazy to see the media (biased or not) getting dragged into the "fair and balanced" BS where they need to present "both sides" of a story. Sometimes the "other side" doesn't carry enough weight to deserve the platform. To pretend that there is an equal and opposing viewpoint just promotes a false balance that doesn't really exist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

"Millions think that Black Lives Matter. To discuss the opposite we found one white supremacist who disagrees. For the *whole* story, tune in at 11"

Jan 15, 21 8:16 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

You just said we didn't understand and then repeated exactly what we said in the prior comments.

Jan 19, 21 11:46 am  · 
 · 
tduds

Yeeeeah it is.

Jan 19, 21 12:52 pm  · 
 · 
molten

This is old news (and maybe it's already been discussed), but any thoughts on Biden's proposal for immediate cancellation of 10k of federal student loans?

Good? Not good enough? Bad? Or just never going to happen?

Jan 15, 21 2:20 pm  · 
 · 
square.

not good enough. i think a decent "compromise" would be canceling only debt from public schools, coupled with a plan/bill that assures free public university level education. i think a fair criticism/concern is canceling all debt (i'm a little more torn on this) would in a sense bail out private institutions that have been fairly predatory or negligent when it comes to tuition costs and administrative spending.

we're so far behind in this category compared to europe- people will bitch and moan with all of the stupid arguments that come with living in america, but before you know it, free public university will be no more controversial than free public secondary education.

Jan 15, 21 2:44 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

I haven't read much into the specifics of Biden's plan yet, but in general I think some debt cancelling is a good start. It needs to be part of a broader education reform in order to have any real impact, though. Tuition is out of control largely (not entirely, but largely) because of ~infinite guaranteed government money / ~infinite under-scrutinized / non-dischargeable loans. A one-time "reset" would definitely help a lot of people in my generation, but will do nothing to correct the problem that will continue to screw over younger generations.

Jan 15, 21 3:27 pm  · 
3  · 
SneakyPete

It also needs to come with some sort of guarantee that universities won't just jack rates or fees because now kids get free uncle sam bucks.

Jan 15, 21 4:37 pm  · 
3  · 

I've avoided looking into the subject of debt cancellation because I know it's one where I'll probably be unhappy regardless of the outcome. I like what tduds said above about it being a good start, but it will need to be coupled with broader reform in the educational system. 

Of course, my first reaction is to ask how this benefits me directly (selfish I know), and I'm curious if there has been any talk about not just loan forgiveness, but also a refund or tax break or something for those of us who have made sacrifices to pay back our loans? I've been paying my loans back since I graduated and have almost eliminated that debt. Is the cancellation talk only about currently held debt, or is there some aspect of this that can work retroactively to people who graduated in the past X number of years? Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy if my generation gets out from under this debt regardless, but it sucks to get nothing if you've "been doing everything right" to get out from under the debt anyway.

Jan 15, 21 5:45 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

It's just Biden paying the absolute minimum lip service to the demands of what he sees as the fringe of his constituency. It's business as usual, toss em scraps, shut them up, then continue as he was. Anyone who expects Joe fucking Biden to be some sort of revolutionary leader for change doesn't know what fucking country they live in. Fucking same shit, same fucking day.

Jan 15, 21 6:24 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

"Anyone who expects Joe fucking Biden to be some sort of revolutionary leader for change doesn't know what fucking country they live in." 

You're not wrong there but, in all fairness, the details I've seen so far are more progressive than anything we've seen to date from any past administration. It's a baby step, but at least a baby step in the right direction.

Jan 15, 21 6:41 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

ea- the sentiment is fair, but an argument against what you’re saying is this meme: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EO_Fj-QX0AEz373.jpg:large

Jan 16, 21 12:23 pm  · 
 · 
square.

ive also paid tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and would benefit greatly from broad cancellation.. but i think simple forgiveness of current debt in some form, similar to instituting a policy like social security that doesn’t retroactively benefit anyone, is for better or worse how progress works.

Jan 16, 21 12:26 pm  · 
 · 

square. I agree completely and I’ve fought the tendency to phrase this as a would it be *fair* argument. I know it won’t be fair. I don’t think that would, or should, be the goal. Let’s save the people on the tracks, but also maybe not ignore the destruction it left before we diverted it. I don’t think it has to be one or the other. We can figure out both, but if not ... I’m good with just figuring out the current debt issue.

Jan 16, 21 4:00 pm  · 
 · 
square.

right- wasn’t exactly what you’re saying to be fair, just a common argument against anti-debt cancellation. but i definitely agree that canceling debt without bigger reforms is a bad idea.

Jan 16, 21 5:04 pm  · 
 · 

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