sort of interesting that the D vp pick is the blue collar wet dream that the R's should have grabbed up if their critique of "coastal elites" has any depth [small town midwest, non-com high rank officer, HS teacher, football coach w/ 4 st champs, 6 term us rep & gov who inspired voters to capture both state houses]
instead they picked a yalie lawyer turned VC guy who got rich on a book denigrating the poor in his home state...only down side is he's a old white guy, but that would play for the R's
fortunately, there's some ideas and values attached to that individual that prevent R's from "grabbing" a winning choice. Their "coastal elites" bs is 1/16" deep.
Aug 7, 24 12:15 pm ·
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gwharton
If you all haven't read Hillbilly Elegy, you should. Proto is mischaracterizing it and doesn't seem to have read it. It's very good. When it first came out, not only was it very popular, but it was held up as a very important book by the working class left. Vance is the real deal as the son of poor blue-collar Americans who made good through military service, determination, and intelligence. Nobody anywhere disputed that until he started supporting Trump and the TDS Brigade went nuts over it.
Vance did come from a blue collar background however he's moved very quickly to be an 'elite' in both wealth and ideals. When he first wrote the book it was done to gain favor with is democratic collogues and appeal to the 'working man'. Within six months of it's release, the book has been under scrutiny for being 'dishonest to the point of fiction'.
In addition, other republicans and former collages say that Vance has zero credibility and will support anyone who will be beneficial for him.
When you call Trump, an American Hitler, who is the one drinking Kool-aid? Was it laced with stupid, cyanide? Or, more likely than not, the book was written by a duplicitous asshat VC bro, and Trumpy Jr. thought bitcoin and melting Skeletor [Peter Thiel] would finance the fuck out of their grift? It's saying something that the only one with charisma on that campaign is Trump is funny as fuck. Who would have thunk it; Billionaires have no touch of the common man, and if you bootlick the king, you might get skunked.
beta thinks he's being clever by making a reference to an old movie there. Because my hobby is boating and somebody apparently told him that at some point (we've never met and he knows absolutely nothing about me on any level). Just ignore it. I do.
He very obviously doesn't, which is clear even in what he wrote right here in this thread. But he likes to think he's clever. You seem to like to think that too.
"denigrating" = unfairly criticizing, seems ok from his position of privilege looking back...what's the synonym for fairly criticizing? "critiquing the poor in his home state"?
Constructive criticism? Oh wait - all Vance did was degrade the area and people he once belonged to. It's almost like Vance has no credibility and will support or sacrifice anyone as long as it's to his benefit.
I've changed my mind and decided to vote for the presidential election in addition to statewide and local propositions. Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, if elected, will be excellent choices. She will bring a new start to this country's politics. She can chew Trump and spit him out for good.
whoever wins this election will inherit a US economy on the verge of moving into a strong phase
people moan about the Fed, but their patience has it climbing resolutely out of a funk and has been in many ways the picture of stability. The investment from the bipartisan infrastructure bill will start to show results
everyone wants a reset on food costs & borrowing rates but my guess is those aren’t going down that low again
Borrowing rates need to drop because it feels like everything is in a holding pattern. We aren’t going to see near zero like we did before, but anything less than what we have now will be welcome.
"Their two visions of how to solve America’s affordable housing shortage have little in common, and Ms. Harris’s plan is far more detailed. But they do share one quality: Both have drawn skepticism from outside economists.
"Ms. Harris is promising a cocktail of tax cuts meant to spur home construction — which several economists said could help create supply. But she is also floating a $25,000 benefit to help first-time buyers break into the market, which many economists worry could boost demand too much, pushing home prices even higher. And both sets of policies would need to pass in Congress, which would influence their design and feasibility.
"Mr. Trump's plan is garnering even more doubt. He pledges to deport undocumented immigrants, which could cut back temporarily on housing demand but would also most likely cut into the construction work force and eventually limit new housing supply. His other ideas include lowering interest rates, something that he has no direct control over and that is poised to happen anyway."
"She says she'll give incentives to spur new construction and help would-be first-time buyers with a stimulus to break into the market. He says he'll kick out all the brown people in your neighborhood and tweet about how an independent agency he has no direct control over needs to lower interest rates. It's impossible to say whose policies merit further discussion."
Also lowering interest rates wouldn't make housing more affordable; if anything it would increase bidding wars on the supply thats out there...? Great time to recommend "Slow Burn City" by Rowan Moore, probably my all time favorite housing policy book.
Aug 30, 24 3:41 pm ·
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graphemic
Absolutely mind blowing that liberal (center-right) outlets are even entertaining the housing impacts of mass deportation. WHAT ABOUT THE ETHICAL ONES. Jesus Christ.
The part I'm unclear about, and I don't feel like doing the legwork to figure it out, is whether the Trump campaign is actually floating mass deportation as housing policy, or if the journalists at the NYT are just carrying the Nazi-flavored water for the campaign by presenting it as housing policy.
Ok, I did some legwork ... this is Trump's campaign back in June:
"Trump also wants to 'stop the unstainable [sic] invasion of illegal aliens which is driving up housing costs, cut taxes for American families, [and] eliminate costly regulations,' campaign press secretary Karoline Leavitt said in a statement."
I mean, it really is rich that on the one hand migrants are ‘stealing’ jobs from the working class, are stealing benefits, are stealing votes, and they’re the ones contributing to the housing crisis. The absolute failure of logic, especially after DOJ goes after Real Page and the other rentier types that are pricing the fuck out of poors. Always the rich with their hands in your pockets pointing at the brown people, and telling me they’re the problem.
It continues to amaze me how little ostensive professionals engaged in the creation of the built environment understand about the economics of construction and housing.
"Mass deportation of illegals" The fact that this kind of language is still being used in 2024 speaks volumes about the disparity between the haves and have-nots. We should not be using such despicable language.
Keeping aside the fact that most of the undocumented workers have been driven to the US because of us meddling in their countries, yes the economy would collapse. For example I dont see many documented folk lining up for farm jobs.
Also keep in mind that most undocumented people are those that flew here and their visa expired. Only about 15% of illegal immigrants physically snuck across the southern border of the US.
"You do run a design/build/ lending firm that builds and finances spec homes for the ultra wealthy."
Only partly right. Yes, I run a significant operational component of a company that builds infill homes. Our buyers are nowhere near "ultra wealthy." They are strictly upper middle class, and the product we sell is best described as "entry-level luxury."
Having said that, they are comfortably buying our homes at an average purchase price of about $3.2 million, which is certainly not "affordable" for most people.
Does that mean the homes we are building are reducing affordability in the local housing market? No. Far from it. We are increasing supply in middle-upper price range, but when we do that the people who are buying our homes are typically moving out of and selling other homes much cheaper that what they are buying from us ("moving up"). That releases more supply of homes in those lower price tranches, making them available on the market for people who are buying at that level. And this continues all the way down the chain to the range of homes/condos/apartments which very much DO qualify as affordable for most people.
This is all a very basic supply and demand calculation, which most of the commenters in this thread seem to really struggle with. The other side of that calculation, of course, is the demand side. There are tens of millions of foreigners in this country presently who are competing for housing and jobs with natives. This dramatically skews demand for those things, generally pricing everyone out because supply can't possibly keep up. You see this everywhere in the housing market, and in the job market as well (it has a very negative effect on unionized labor, as a matter of fact).
None of this is complex or even that challenging to understand. Despite that, very few people here seem able to understand what it means, and prefer to ride around on their ideological hobby horses instead.
"This is all a very basic supply and demand calculation, which most of the commenters in this thread seem to really struggle with. The other side of that calculation, of course, is the demand side. There are tens of millions of foreigners in this country presently who are competing for housing and jobs with natives. This dramatically skews demand for those things, generally pricing everyone out because supply can't possibly keep up. You see this everywhere in the housing market, and in the job market as well (it has a very negative effect on unionized labor, as a matter of fact)."
Do you have any data to support this?
In the Obama article you said you design / build, and sell spec luxury single family homes. You've also said in other threads that you only have 'wealthy' clients. That's doesn't sound like upper middle class.
Greg, rather than blaming "foreigners" for taking the land of the "natives" (which has absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration, cuz most "illegals" dont have the funds to buy said houses) - perhaps you and your firm should focus on building medium density housing rather than 3.4 million $ homes?
gwharton - so you're assuming that the 'foreigners' are taking affordable housing and well paying jobs? Do you have any data to support that? Sure everyone has to live and work somewhere but for you to assume that the average US citizen is having a harder time find work and housing because of immigrants (not illegal immigrants) is rather farcical and xenophobic.
Not that it matters though. You do realize that the 'foreigners' referenced in the link you provided either have a green card or have become US citizens?
gwarton - tell me again how what you design / build / finance isn't geared to the wealthily. I have a hard time seeing this as for upper middle class. It's very nice work though!
gwharton, you're joking with that census link right? Just because you're born outside of the US doesn't mean you're not authorized to live here.
"The foreign-born population consists of anyone living in the United States who was not a U.S. citizen at birth, including naturalized U.S. citizens, lawful permanent residents (immigrants), temporary migrants such as foreign students, humanitarian migrants (for example, refugees and asylees) and unauthorized migrants."
Sep 3, 24 5:21 pm ·
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gwharton
I'm not "blaming foreigners". I'm simply pointing out that supply and demand is a real thing which can't be ignored because it's inconvenient to your ideology. If you add tens of millions of foreign-born people to a country, it significantly increases demand for housing, and supply for labor. That's a basic, uncontroversial statement ... though you all seem to really be struggling with it for some reason. In fact, the whole argument made for flooding the country with immigrants in the first place was to depress wages ("reduce labor costs"). On the housing side, if demand is much larger and supply has not grown with it, of course housing prices are going to skyrocket. That's trivially obvious, though everyone seems to be avoiding talking about it. For an extreme example, look what a massive influx of foreign buyers and capital has done to housing costs in Vancouver, BC.
Sep 3, 24 5:28 pm ·
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gwharton
"I have a hard time seeing this as for upper middle class."
You need to adjust your scale of what you think counts as wealthy/upper class versus middle and upper-middle. In the area where we are building these homes, $3.4 million is not a home for rich people. Really wealthy people in the PNW / Tech Triangle are building customs or buying homes that start north of $10 million. $3 million just barely meets the basic entrance for "luxury" in this market, and is a price point which is focused mostly on upper-middles (especially couples with two tech salaries, who are the vast majority of our buyers here). Now, I used to design homes for genuinely wealthy people (centimillionaires and billionaires). That is a completely different market and product that what I am building now.
Sep 3, 24 5:39 pm ·
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sameolddoctor
gwharton, you say you are not blaming foreigners, but then you do it in the next sentence. Quite frankly most of us immigrants are hard workers that feed and grow the economy, so even if your rant was accurate, there is no reason there should be a shortage of housing to house said immigrants. Parts of suburbs need to be densified, there is enough excess capacity built in our infrastructure to support this.
gwharton - You need to redefine what you consider wealthy. If you only think the wealthy is centimillionaires and billionaires then I think you're out of touch with the majority of the people in the US. To be able to afford a $4 million home most people would need to make around $3.3 million a year.
FYI: In the US the upper middle class is around $180k a year.
"...comfortably buying our homes at an average purchase price of about $3.2 million... increasing supply in middle-upper price range"
Not attacking you specifically gwharton but this comment in general, as a reflection of the USA, made my mouth literally drop open.
I'm dead serious when I say this: there are many, many people just in my neighborhood who are working full-time jobs and struggling to afford a mortgage of $1500/month or so. If the USA is really intent on being a fair country where anyone can succeed we need to show rich people what normal people live like. If rich people ignore the fact that the people who: care for their infants, provide their food, teach their children, take their vitals when they're in the hospital, clean their offices and homes, manage their water and power plants, etc. can all *barely manage* to stay afloat in this economy....I just don't know what to say.
Hundreds of thousands, even millions, of people are sinking a little bit every day. I didn't used to believe a revolution was possible but I'm honestly starting to see it now.
Sep 7, 24 12:38 pm ·
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gwharton
Home prices and income levels vary quite a bit from region to region. You can't compare suburban Ohio to the Bay Area or Tech Triangle as an apples-to-apples thing. Also, get your math right. Chad saying "To be able to afford a $4 million home most people would need to make around $3.3 million a year." is pure nonsense. Even with Bidenflation interest rates, the monthly mortgage payment on a $3.2 million home is about $18,000. Now, that's a lot, but it's not so much that it requires being truly wealthy to afford. If we assume the standard 30% of gross income affordability threshold, then a household income of $720,000 easily affords that house, not seven figures. That's a couple of L7/L8+ tech salaries, which turns out to be who our core buyers are. Push the threshold to 40% AGI, and $540K/yr affords that house, which is L6/L7 level. They are well off, but "upper-class wealthy?" Absolutely not.
You'd need to make right around $1 million a year to afford a $4 million home. This is based on the average monthly mortgage payment on a $4 million home being $21.5K. ($18-$25K range) This combined with the mortgage being a maximum of 28% of your gross monthly income.
Regardless - how many American families do you know that make $1 million a year? Not many. Around 6% of American families make that. Regional income levels do NOT matter in this situation.
gwharton For you to state that someone who makes $750K - $1million a year to be 'upper class but not wealthy' not only is disputed by economic data but to me shows that you have no idea what an average American experiences.
FYI: the upper middle class in America is between $94 - $180K a year per individual. That's $188K - $360K a family assuming two working partners. This makes up the top 15% - 20% of the American earners in the US.
It's funny how all American unions and environmental protection groups used to be very strongly anti-immigration until the corporate big-wigs bought them all off.
Sep 3, 24 5:43 pm ·
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proto
or was it until they figured that immigrants would strengthen their ranks?
I know a great deal about how the American construction industry work gwharton. Immigration brings in new talent and ideas. I'd think you'd know this. Especially considering that the 'build' portion of your business is over 50% immigrants.
I know 100 % of the framers, roofers, concrete and landscape crews are fresh immigrants, with the rest of the trades soon to follow suit. Most of them built their own homes in less expensive towns less than 2 hours from the job sites.
The disdain of the old guard for the skilled labor and great ambition of these guys is appalling, almost xenophobic. BTW there is no "modern american construction industry" it's the same old jerk circle it has been for the last 50 years, only bigger and more scared of competition. Learn spanish and stop whining.
A large number of the people who work for us in construction are foreign-born. None are illegals (we use E-verify). NONE of them are union. Not even one. Which is kind of the whole point, since they are cheap in comparison and that's the number one reason Big Business and the Chamber have been pushing for a giant influx of foreign labor for literally decades. I'm happy to talk about the relative merits of hiring cheap foreign labor over local unions from direct experience if you like. You probably won't like the answers very much, since they don't align with your prejudices.
Also, as it turns out, something like 85-90% of our buyers are ALSO foreign-born, though typically from different places.
gwharton You said mass deportation of illegal immigrants would improve housing and jobs for the average American. When asked for a source you liked an immigration page about legal immigration. You then went on to say: supply and demand is a real thing which can't be ignored because it's inconvenient to your ideology. If you add tens of millions of foreign-born people to a country, it significantly increases demand for housing, and supply for labor.
gwharton's statement "There are tens of millions of foreigners in this country presently who are competing for housing and jobs with natives," and the link he presented in an attempt to back it up where the majority of the people are here legally, and his assertion that his construction labor force and majority of his buyers shows how this is all just political theater to him. If he actually got what he says he wants, he'd be out of work. The economic collapse would put him out of work.
Mind you, this is a criticism of his ability to think through his politics, not what he does for work. If you take what he posts about his work at face value, he's doing a good thing for housing costs.
EA - that's what I was going to say but the site glitched mid edit. gwharton started out saying illegal immigrants then changed to all immigrants. Greg isn't a stupid person. He has to be doing this on purpose and just trolling.
Sep 4, 24 1:53 pm ·
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gwharton
EA and Chad - you are both criticizing a fanciful version of what you think my politics are in your head, rather than what I actually think. This is fairly typical of American political discussions in general these days, on all sides. I'm ignoring EA because of it. I am responding to Chad specifically and only in the context of issues and questions that actually respond to what I am saying and what I actually think about the subject.
Note: if you go back and actually read carefully, you will see that I am not advocating for or against mass deportation, either of illegals or all foreign-born residents of the USA. I am simply pointing out that having them here has real-world consequences, many of which you are all dismissing or even pretending are the opposite of what they really are.
“EA and Chad - you are both criticizing a fanciful version of what you think my politics are in your head, rather than what I actually think. “
No. I’m criticizing what you’re writing here.
“Note: if you go back and actually read carefully, you will see that I am not advocating for or against mass deportation, either of illegals or all foreign-born residents of the USA. “
In the context of the housing discussion, you’re the one that brought up illegal immigrants:
“Mass deportation of illegals is being proposed for other reasons, but there is no question that it would reduce housing demand as a side effect.”
That sure seems like you’re advocating for deportation of illegal immigrants to assist with the housing shortage. If not, why did you bring it up?
You then pivoted to including all immigrants as shown in your comment below.
“I'm not "blaming foreigners". I'm simply pointing out that supply and demand is a real thing which can't be ignored because it's inconvenient to your ideology. If you add tens of millions of foreign-born people to a country, it significantly increases demand for housing, and supply for labor. That's a basic, uncontroversial statement ... though you all seem to really be struggling with it for some reason.”
Oddly, you then admitted that your business is reliant on immigrants.
“A large number of the people who work for us in construction are foreign-born. None are illegals (we use E-verify). NONE of them are union.”
Snick
“Also, as it turns out, something like 85-90% of our buyers are ALSO foreign-born, though typically from different places.”
This makes me wonder why you would bring up removing immigrants to improve housing availability. I know you say you weren’t for or against ‘mass deportation’. However, you did bring it up unprompted, as a solution to housing and job availability.
My reasoning is one of two things happened:
You were concerned that you came off as xenophobic and classist.
You’re trolling.
I don’t believe that you don’t understand your political views or that you’re not intelligent enough to see they conflicts in the comments you’ve written here.
Now please excuse me. I have actual architecture to work on. Good day everyone.
gwharton comes into the politics thread, posts about his politics, then complains that we're talking about his politics that he posted in the politics thread. Ignore me more please.
Chad, tbf he wasn't the first to bring up undocumented or illegal immigrants. He responded to my post where I pointed out Trump's campaign brought up mass deportation of undocumented immigrants as housing policy to say something to the effect of "Trump's not wrong, deporting all the illegal immigrants would lower housing demand" without being able to back it up in any meaningful way.
"LMFAO do you know anything at all about how the modern American construction industry works?" Yes, I do. At a variety of scales & complexities. And I don't presume one scale speaks for the various others.
Before everything gets too sidetracked on supply and demand and whatnot ... we have to acknowledge that the only reason we're talking about it is because the Trump campaign is trying to push through mass deportations as housing policy when it's simply thinly-veiled xenophobia and white supremacy.
gwharton just about let it slip when he said, "Mass deportation of illegals is being proposed for other reasons, but there is no question that it would reduce housing demand as a side effect."
The "other reasons" are bad enough that no one should be seriously talking about this as a viable housing policy regardless of whether or not it would temporarily reduce housing demand as a side effect.
The next two months will bring us so much entertainment, then, when trumpistant 2.0 starts, we’ll still be laughing at the m’ericans and their silly circus. Pew pews, bald eagles and fetuses.
I wouldn't laugh too much Non. Like it or not, what America does will have a noticeable impact to the rest of the world. Especially our polite hat, aka 'The Great White North', aka 'War Criminal Central'.
Chad... there are some effects... but it's cute that you think America is so important that we ought to worry. 8-) You're not that important, anymore. Also, where's that elk?
I've only been out hunting for one day so far - be patient!
Trust me - Canada worries.
Your a hat to a country that is actively trying to re-electing fat orange baby who thinks he's been chosen by gowd to rule the world. I mean he'll probably get distracted by a porn star and McDonalds before he can do much but he still has access to the nukes. The guy could hit the wrong button when trying to order a Diet Coke.
Then again - the orange one could just say Canada has American oil and . . . . eeep. 8-)
"At one UFW meeting, Dolores Huerta, co-founder of the union with Chavez and always a more conventional leftist than he, foreshadowed today’s anti-borders agitators, objecting to the words “wetback” and “illegal”: “The people themselves aren’t illegal. The action of being in this country maybe is illegal.” Pawel relates Chavez’s response, from a tape recording of the meeting: “Chavez turned on Huerta angrily. ‘No, a spade’s a spade,’ he said. ‘You guys get these hang-ups. Goddamn it, how do we build a union? They’re wets, you know. They’re wets, and let’s go after them.’”"
Sep 4, 24 4:35 pm ·
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gwharton
"Cesar Chavez Legacy: From ‘Wet Lines’ To An ‘Illegals Campaign,' A Dark Side In Latino Icon’s Opposition To Undocumented Immigrants"
I gotta brag on my wife some because she was instruamental in getting a street in town named after Dolores Huerta and has met her a few times. My wife started an orginization called Las Mujeres de LULAC here.
Delores came for the cerimony and marched a 2 mile route with everyone in 90° heat at 90 yrs old. The old broad still has it!
In case you haven't noticed, the dangerous rhetoric (stochastic terrorism) being pushed by the Trump campaign about immigration in Springfield, OH isn't just about "illegals" or undocumented immigrants. In fact, a lot of the reporting is accurately indicating that these immigrants are here legally as naturalized citizens or under temporary protected status.
This is an escalation of their xenophobic and white supremacist ideologies and it should not be allowed anywhere near an elected office. They are banking on being able to get elected, deport legal immigrants (as well as undocumented ones) and even naturalized citizens that have too much melanin. They are using xenophobic references to jobs and housing and public health as cover for their white supremacy.
I wonder why gwharton gave this a thumbs down? EA's statement is accurate and correct. Trumps platform is stating that all immigrants are the problem, not just illegal ones.
I thought gwharton was ignoring me. He probably just doesn't like that the quiet parts are being said so loudly right now. It's easier to exist as a conservative among polite company when the party you support isn't so openly racist. Trump's VP candidate is straight up saying he's making things up. Being called "weird" was just too much for JD to handle. He thought that it would be better to be called a lying racist instead.
gwharton said he is ignoring you EA. I personally think it's just a means to not have to deal with 'hard' issues.
From the linked article:
"Gov. Mike DeWine of Ohio, a Republican, said in an interview on ABC News on Sunday morning that the claim that migrants were eating pets was “a piece of garbage that was simply not true.” He said that while there were some “challenges” involved in accommodating thousands of migrants, they had benefited Springfield economically."
It sure seems like Trump and Vance are lying. I wonder why Trump supporters are being quiet on this?
Sep 17, 24 12:23 pm ·
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gwharton
A lot of us have given up trying to engage with any of you on this stuff because it's like arguing with a television set. It's a waste of time and energy.
When your engagement is as weak as it is, I'm not surprised you give up. You make it pretty easy to poke holes in your arguments.
Like in the previous page of this thread when you tried to use misleading graphs to show the left has shifted further left, when in reality it was showing the left becoming more ideologically consistent (the actual point of the graphs), and when you dig in deeper the only reason the right hadn't become more ideologically consistent is because some of them were recognizing the issues of being xenophobic and homophobic.
Sep 17, 24 3:00 pm ·
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OddArchitect
Let's be concise:
Do you gwharton agree with a political group fabricating stories about immigrants eating pets?
Sep 17, 24 3:03 pm ·
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gwharton
Thank you both for so immediately proving my point. I'm changing the channel to something more interesting now.
"A lot of us have given up trying to engage with any of you on this stuff because it's like arguing with a television set. It's a waste of time and energy.
Thank you both for so immediately proving my point. I'm changing the channel to something more interesting now. "
There are only a few people here who have 'given up' engaging with me on 'this stuff'. Both of them are online trolls
How did I prove your point? I seriously want to know how you feel about this.
I sincerely hope not. I don't with to belittle or make fun of someone's political views within reason. If you're going to back say a fascist dictator or Nazi then I will relentlessly make fun of you. Just to be clear - I'm not calling Trump or Vance either of those things.
Nah, I think he just doesn't like it when we say he's defending the racists, xenophobes, homophobes, and liars. He wants to be able to ignore those things and direct attention to things like supply and demand. And to be clear, if he was doing that in service of something else like a coherent economic policy, I'd let him cook. But not when it's in the service of the aforementioned lying racists who are so power hungry they will endanger the lives of their own constituents to seize a little more.
Sep 17, 24 4:25 pm ·
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OddArchitect
He doesn't think that the people he supports are racists, xenophobes, homophobes, and liars. I suspect that he's tried of constantly having to defend those he supports. It probably frustrates him that the majority of the 'evidence' he posts is shown to be a misunderstanding on his point or simply untrue.
Despite all of that I still enjoy speaking with him about his views and value his opinions.
I follow a lot of international newspapers and websites. Trump is a laughingstock of the world, of course, it touches American society too when they generalize. I think this is the funniest. Dark humor.
You should consider the alternate possibility that they are all lying to you.
Nov 6, 24 11:53 am ·
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sameolddoctor
To be perfectly honest Orhan, I dislike Trump, but Biden/Harris have made America the most hated country in the world, with their neoliberal hawkish shit.
With Trump we were a joke (and will be again) but with Biden-Harris we were evil incarnate.
Nov 6, 24 11:57 am ·
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JLC-1
who is lying? I mean, Do you really think Trump is the great savior? I understand you voting for your personal benefit, but if you admire a human like trump, ufff.
Nov 6, 24 11:59 am ·
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gwharton
I'm just suggesting you all consider that your beliefs about all this are not aligned with reality, and a major reason for that is official media channels have been systematically lying. The electoral rejection they just got at the national level is at least cause for some reflection on that score. But hey, if you want to just double down then go for it.
Nov 6, 24 1:39 pm ·
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JLC-1
not answering the question is a great way to reaffirm your beliefs. official media? wtf is that? is that official media in the room with us now? double down? yes, trump is a horrible human being, proven by decades of bigotry, racism, misogyny and lies, aside form his failed business endeavors, and his constant whining about having to abide by the law like everybody else. You just like him because he will lower your taxes, would you let your daughter spend an afternoon with him?
Nov 6, 24 1:45 pm ·
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curtkram
sameold, howso? trump moved the embassy to jerusalem. he will not be the good guy in that conflict. supporting ukraine is the right thing to do so russia's colonial conquest doesn't push into our nato allies. seems trump will let putin take what he wants. where is trump the better person here? will trump defend taiwan? shouldn't he if he needs to?
In local Indiana politics, we have a carpetbagger Republican candidate for governor, and his co-governor is a woman-hating bible literalist, running against a centrist Democrat. Currently they are running almost even, but...of course there's an idiot Libertarian candidate siphoning off 9% of the vote. If people vote for the Libertarian there's still no way he wins, but if they vote for the Dem they *will* be voting for a candidate who wants to legalize marijuana, so....come on, Libertarians! Third party candidates at high level aren't viable! Grrr.
It's "ranked choice;" "rank choice" is wording meant to undermine its legitimacy by using the root word as a pejorative. We have it for many state elections here in Maine and it's been great so far.
I'm not against third party; I'd love to have more parties. But the way to make that viable is to start at local offices and build up over decades, not to launch one noisy person into a major election every four years.
When confronted with the fact that the immigrants he's attacking as *illegals* are actually here legally, JD decides to double down and say it doesn't matter, he's going to keep calling them *illegals* because he's racist and he really wants mass deportations.
Even republicans and former collages say that Vance has zero credibility and will support anyone who will be beneficial for him. They've also said that Vance will 'drop' anyone when they're not useful to him.
WITAF, America?!? Egg prices aren’t coming down cuz you voted for a con man!
Just depressing — it’s so regressive; so self-harming…
I’ll go do my small biz taxes and get my unneeded forthcoming tax break, but what about infrastructure, strong trade, the environment, equality, housing equity, health care, neutrality/equity in the justice system, international relations, etc?
" infrastructure, strong trade, the environment, equality, housing equity, health care, neutrality/equity in the justice system, international relations" - If by international relations you mean with Europe and the UK, sure Biden/Harris succeeded, but no where else.
Nov 6, 24 11:39 am ·
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OddArchitect
Actually, CO voted for Harris.
Nov 6, 24 11:59 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Odd... it's an old graphic. Dates back to the Bush admin... not sure if senior of junior, but not like that matters.
Nov 6, 24 12:06 pm ·
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JLC-1
This is the map NON
Nov 6, 24 12:06 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
^I'm aware, but mine gets the point across at CO & NM's expense I guess.
CO approved a state law to award all of their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote in the Presidential election, so technically Trump won CO too. ;-)
Nov 6, 24 1:37 pm ·
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OddArchitect
Not really. We also passed right to abortion, women's right to decide their medical care, the right for gay marriage, and increased funding for public schools so . . . .
Harris could have called for an arms embargo to Israel and have won this election. It wouldn't have been easy, but the 3rd party and stay-at-home voters in the swing states would have voted democrat.
Don't get me wrong, Trump will likely finish in gaza what biden started, but it just highlights how wrong the liberals have had it. Time to go to brunches and talk shit about progressives I guess.
Do you have any links to the surveys SOD? I'm genuinely curious. The data I've seen so far is saying it wouldn't of been enough to have Harris win. The data I've seen could very well be old though.
Nov 6, 24 12:50 pm ·
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OddArchitect
JLC-1 wrote:
"yes, supporting genocide was a red line for many people."
While I agree with that I do find it odd that some would knowingly vote so that Trump would be elected. Trump, a man who would literally nuke Palestine.
Seems like a cutting off your nose to spite your face type of situation.
What do I know though. I'm just an architect who likes to hunt things with a pointy stick.
Carry on.
Nov 6, 24 3:00 pm ·
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sameolddoctor
Nice, so this proves that the Israelis could have tens of thousands of people killed so their president could get elected (and make shady deals to profit his family)
Oh, I have no doubt the Netanyahu could end the 'war' whenever he wanted to. I'm still interested in your source for the "about 32 surveys that show that an arms embargo would have made Harris slide over the edge".
I've seriously looked and didn't find any credible surveys. I'm not doubting you, I just can't find much.
32 wow. That sure is a lot. I am completely convinced that you are not an abject failure at basic citizenship. Have you thought about maybe a side gig at Ellis Island or Arlington Cemetery? You seem to be a natural for something suitablely patriotic.
Nov 6, 24 10:49 pm ·
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sameolddoctor
That attitude is symbolic of you neo liberal twats, noonehere ... Go cry into your latte for the next 4 years while us progressives try to dream up something different.
Nov 6, 24 11:21 pm ·
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Noonehere
You don't get it. How are you going to do anything? They are going to dissolve the Constitution. There will be nothing to build on. Geez. Are you really so stupid that you think there will be another election in 4 years? Is that what you tell yourself? It was made crystal clear what was at stake.
Nov 6, 24 11:55 pm ·
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Wood Guy
I'd like to see the 32 surveys as well. Or one.
Nov 7, 24 9:23 am ·
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OddArchitect
Still waiting on those surveys. I'm genuinely curious.
On a related note. I hear that Trump states he will end the war in Gaza in 48 hours. Apparently this will be done by attacking Iran if they don't stop supporting Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis.
Nov 11, 24 9:49 am ·
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curtkram
one of the thing I'm hearing is people saying "if you would have done what i told you to do you would have won." i don't think this is correct in any context.
That's because most people greatly overestimate their own intelligence and experience. The smartest, most experienced people always seem to be the ones that say ' I'm not sure ' They understand that many issues are complex and require a nuanced response to create a beneficial resolution.
To put this succinctly :
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts and the stupid ones are full of confidence"
Measles, polio, and small pox don't recognize state lines. Have any family on social security, Medicare, Medicaid? Any family members with veterans benefits?
Having RFK in charge of the health department is one of the scarier aspects of the situation. I liked some of his thoughts on the environment, but that's all out the window now.
I've been enjoying dressing in bright colors recently, as I grew tired of dressing "like an architect" now that I'm older and trying to find joy. But I'm back to black now. All black today, and my Screw U necklace. And a bright red lip because I'm 57 years old and I don't give a damn what men think about how my face looks.
Politics Central
sort of interesting that the D vp pick is the blue collar wet dream that the R's should have grabbed up if their critique of "coastal elites" has any depth [small town midwest, non-com high rank officer, HS teacher, football coach w/ 4 st champs, 6 term us rep & gov who inspired voters to capture both state houses]
instead they picked a yalie lawyer turned VC guy who got rich on a book denigrating the poor in his home state...only down side is he's a old white guy, but that would play for the R's
fortunately, there's some ideas and values attached to that individual that prevent R's from "grabbing" a winning choice. Their "coastal elites" bs is 1/16" deep.
If you all haven't read Hillbilly Elegy, you should. Proto is mischaracterizing it and doesn't seem to have read it. It's very good. When it first came out, not only was it very popular, but it was held up as a very important book by the working class left. Vance is the real deal as the son of poor blue-collar Americans who made good through military service, determination, and intelligence. Nobody anywhere disputed that until he started supporting Trump and the TDS Brigade went nuts over it.
I've read the book.
Vance isn't the real deal.
Vance did come from a blue collar background however he's moved very quickly to be an 'elite' in both wealth and ideals. When he first wrote the book it was done to gain favor with is democratic collogues and appeal to the 'working man'. Within six months of it's release, the book has been under scrutiny for being 'dishonest to the point of fiction'.
In addition, other republicans and former collages say that Vance has zero credibility and will support anyone who will be beneficial for him.
When you call Trump, an American Hitler, who is the one drinking Kool-aid? Was it laced with stupid, cyanide? Or, more likely than not, the book was written by a duplicitous asshat VC bro, and Trumpy Jr. thought bitcoin and melting Skeletor [Peter Thiel] would finance the fuck out of their grift? It's saying something that the only one with charisma on that campaign is Trump is funny as fuck. Who would have thunk it; Billionaires have no touch of the common man, and if you bootlick the king, you might get skunked.
You might also get grabbed in the _____.
Bussy
@beta, was that supposed to be English?
@smails, why do you hate the working class?
Who TF is smails? :P
beta thinks he's being clever by making a reference to an old movie there. Because my hobby is boating and somebody apparently told him that at some point (we've never met and he knows absolutely nothing about me on any level). Just ignore it. I do.
Sounds like beta know's more about you than you think. ;)
He very obviously doesn't, which is clear even in what he wrote right here in this thread. But he likes to think he's clever. You seem to like to think that too.
Or I'm messing with you. You seem to think you know a lot about me. ;)
"denigrating" = unfairly criticizing, seems ok from his position of privilege looking back...what's the synonym for fairly criticizing? "critiquing the poor in his home state"?
Constructive criticism? Oh wait - all Vance did was degrade the area and people he once belonged to. It's almost like Vance has no credibility and will support or sacrifice anyone as long as it's to his benefit.
I've changed my mind and decided to vote for the presidential election in addition to statewide and local propositions.
Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, if elected, will be excellent choices. She will bring a new start to this country's politics. She can chew Trump and spit him out for good.
whoever wins this election will inherit a US economy on the verge of moving into a strong phase
people moan about the Fed, but their patience has it climbing resolutely out of a funk and has been in many ways the picture of stability. The investment from the bipartisan infrastructure bill will start to show results
everyone wants a reset on food costs & borrowing rates but my guess is those aren’t going down that low again
Borrowing rates need to drop because it feels like everything is in a holding pattern. We aren’t going to see near zero like we did before, but anything less than what we have now will be welcome.
The Obama calls for a housing revolution at the DNC news post has been getting a lot of comments, but the NYT is out there trying to "both sides" Harris's actual housing policies, and spin Trump's "Mass Deportation Now!" plan as housing policy (emphasis mine):
"Their two visions of how to solve America’s affordable housing shortage have little in common, and Ms. Harris’s plan is far more detailed. But they do share one quality: Both have drawn skepticism from outside economists.
"Ms. Harris is promising a cocktail of tax cuts meant to spur home construction — which several economists said could help create supply. But she is also floating a $25,000 benefit to help first-time buyers break into the market, which many economists worry could boost demand too much, pushing home prices even higher. And both sets of policies would need to pass in Congress, which would influence their design and feasibility.
"Mr. Trump's plan is garnering even more doubt. He pledges to deport undocumented immigrants, which could cut back temporarily on housing demand but would also most likely cut into the construction work force and eventually limit new housing supply. His other ideas include lowering interest rates, something that he has no direct control over and that is poised to happen anyway."
"She says she'll give incentives to spur new construction and help would-be first-time buyers with a stimulus to break into the market. He says he'll kick out all the brown people in your neighborhood and tweet about how an independent agency he has no direct control over needs to lower interest rates. It's impossible to say whose policies merit further discussion."
Also lowering interest rates wouldn't make housing more affordable; if anything it would increase bidding wars on the supply thats out there...? Great time to recommend "Slow Burn City" by Rowan Moore, probably my all time favorite housing policy book.
Absolutely mind blowing that liberal (center-right) outlets are even entertaining the housing impacts of mass deportation. WHAT ABOUT THE ETHICAL ONES. Jesus Christ.
The part I'm unclear about, and I don't feel like doing the legwork to figure it out, is whether the Trump campaign is actually floating mass deportation as housing policy, or if the journalists at the NYT are just carrying the Nazi-flavored water for the campaign by presenting it as housing policy.
Ok, I did some legwork ... this is Trump's campaign back in June:
"Trump also wants to 'stop the unstainable [sic] invasion of illegal aliens which is driving up housing costs, cut taxes for American families, [and] eliminate costly regulations,' campaign press secretary Karoline Leavitt said in a statement."
https://www.npr.org/2024/06/24...
Mass deportation of illegals is being proposed for other reasons, but there is no question that it would reduce housing demand as a side effect.
Mass deportation after our policies have driven mass migration will lead to economic collapse in the US.
I mean, it really is rich that on the one hand migrants are ‘stealing’ jobs from the working class, are stealing benefits, are stealing votes, and they’re the ones contributing to the housing crisis. The absolute failure of logic, especially after DOJ goes after Real Page and the other rentier types that are pricing the fuck out of poors. Always the rich with their hands in your pockets pointing at the brown people, and telling me they’re the problem.
It continues to amaze me how little ostensive professionals engaged in the creation of the built environment understand about the economics of construction and housing.
gwharton- I understand the economics of construction and housing.
Mass deportations will not solve the housing crisis.
Then again, you probably know more than I do . You do run a design/build/ lending firm that builds and finances spec homes for the ultra wealthy.
"Mass deportation of illegals" The fact that this kind of language is still being used in 2024 speaks volumes about the disparity between the haves and have-nots. We should not be using such despicable language.
Keeping aside the fact that most of the undocumented workers have been driven to the US because of us meddling in their countries, yes the economy would collapse. For example I dont see many documented folk lining up for farm jobs.
Also keep in mind that most undocumented people are those that flew here and their visa expired. Only about 15% of illegal immigrants physically snuck across the southern border of the US.
As long as your 12 year kids aren't working in meat packing plants mount up blood I guess alles gütte? Arbeit Macht Frei?
"You do run a design/build/ lending firm that builds and finances spec homes for the ultra wealthy."
Only partly right. Yes, I run a significant operational component of a company that builds infill homes. Our buyers are nowhere near "ultra wealthy." They are strictly upper middle class, and the product we sell is best described as "entry-level luxury."
Having said that, they are comfortably buying our homes at an average purchase price of about $3.2 million, which is certainly not "affordable" for most people.
Does that mean the homes we are building are reducing affordability in the local housing market? No. Far from it. We are increasing supply in middle-upper price range, but when we do that the people who are buying our homes are typically moving out of and selling other homes much cheaper that what they are buying from us ("moving up"). That releases more supply of homes in those lower price tranches, making them available on the market for people who are buying at that level. And this continues all the way down the chain to the range of homes/condos/apartments which very much DO qualify as affordable for most people.
This is all a very basic supply and demand calculation, which most of the commenters in this thread seem to really struggle with. The other side of that calculation, of course, is the demand side. There are tens of millions of foreigners in this country presently who are competing for housing and jobs with natives. This dramatically skews demand for those things, generally pricing everyone out because supply can't possibly keep up. You see this everywhere in the housing market, and in the job market as well (it has a very negative effect on unionized labor, as a matter of fact).
None of this is complex or even that challenging to understand. Despite that, very few people here seem able to understand what it means, and prefer to ride around on their ideological hobby horses instead.
gwharton wrote:
"This is all a very basic supply and demand calculation, which most of the commenters in this thread seem to really struggle with. The other side of that calculation, of course, is the demand side. There are tens of millions of foreigners in this country presently who are competing for housing and jobs with natives. This dramatically skews demand for those things, generally pricing everyone out because supply can't possibly keep up. You see this everywhere in the housing market, and in the job market as well (it has a very negative effect on unionized labor, as a matter of fact)."
Do you have any data to support this?
In the Obama article you said you design / build, and sell spec luxury single family homes. You've also said in other threads that you only have 'wealthy' clients. That's doesn't sound like upper middle class.
"Do you have any data to support this?"
The United States Census: https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2024/foreign-born-population.html
Greg, rather than blaming "foreigners" for taking the land of the "natives" (which has absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigration, cuz most "illegals" dont have the funds to buy said houses) - perhaps you and your firm should focus on building medium density housing rather than 3.4 million $ homes?
gwharton - so you're assuming that the 'foreigners' are taking affordable housing and well paying jobs? Do you have any data to support that? Sure everyone has to live and work somewhere but for you to assume that the average US citizen is having a harder time find work and housing because of immigrants (not illegal immigrants) is rather farcical and xenophobic.
Not that it matters though. You do realize that the 'foreigners' referenced in the link you provided either have a green card or have become US citizens?
.
gwarton - tell me again how what you design / build / finance isn't geared to the wealthily. I have a hard time seeing this as for upper middle class. It's very nice work though!
https://mncustom.com/homes/106...
gwharton, you're joking with that census link right? Just because you're born outside of the US doesn't mean you're not authorized to live here.
"The foreign-born population consists of anyone living in the United States who was not a U.S. citizen at birth, including naturalized U.S. citizens, lawful permanent residents (immigrants), temporary migrants such as foreign students, humanitarian migrants (for example, refugees and asylees) and unauthorized migrants."
I'm not "blaming foreigners". I'm simply pointing out that supply and demand is a real thing which can't be ignored because it's inconvenient to your ideology. If you add tens of millions of foreign-born people to a country, it significantly increases demand for housing, and supply for labor. That's a basic, uncontroversial statement ... though you all seem to really be struggling with it for some reason. In fact, the whole argument made for flooding the country with immigrants in the first place was to depress wages ("reduce labor costs"). On the housing side, if demand is much larger and supply has not grown with it, of course housing prices are going to skyrocket. That's trivially obvious, though everyone seems to be avoiding talking about it. For an extreme example, look what a massive influx of foreign buyers and capital has done to housing costs in Vancouver, BC.
"I have a hard time seeing this as for upper middle class."
You need to adjust your scale of what you think counts as wealthy/upper class versus middle and upper-middle. In the area where we are building these homes, $3.4 million is not a home for rich people. Really wealthy people in the PNW / Tech Triangle are building customs or buying homes that start north of $10 million. $3 million just barely meets the basic entrance for "luxury" in this market, and is a price point which is focused mostly on upper-middles (especially couples with two tech salaries, who are the vast majority of our buyers here). Now, I used to design homes for genuinely wealthy people (centimillionaires and billionaires). That is a completely different market and product that what I am building now.
gwharton, you say you are not blaming foreigners, but then you do it in the next sentence. Quite frankly most of us immigrants are hard workers that feed and grow the economy, so even if your rant was accurate, there is no reason there should be a shortage of housing to house said immigrants. Parts of suburbs need to be densified, there is enough excess capacity built in our infrastructure to support this.
gwharton - You need to redefine what you consider wealthy. If you only think the wealthy is centimillionaires and billionaires then I think you're out of touch with the majority of the people in the US. To be able to afford a $4 million home most people would need to make around $3.3 million a year.
FYI: In the US the upper middle class is around $180k a year.
this study claim to be bipartisan, https://www.newamericaneconomy.org/housingmap/
"...comfortably buying our homes at an average purchase price of about $3.2 million... increasing supply in middle-upper price range"
Not attacking you specifically gwharton but this comment in general, as a reflection of the USA, made my mouth literally drop open.
I'm dead serious when I say this: there are many, many people just in my neighborhood who are working full-time jobs and struggling to afford a mortgage of $1500/month or so. If the USA is really intent on being a fair country where anyone can succeed we need to show rich people what normal people live like. If rich people ignore the fact that the people who: care for their infants, provide their food, teach their children, take their vitals when they're in the hospital, clean their offices and homes, manage their water and power plants, etc. can all *barely manage* to stay afloat in this economy....I just don't know what to say.
Hundreds of thousands, even millions, of people are sinking a little bit every day. I didn't used to believe a revolution was possible but I'm honestly starting to see it now.
Home prices and income levels vary quite a bit from region to region. You can't compare suburban Ohio to the Bay Area or Tech Triangle as an apples-to-apples thing. Also, get your math right. Chad saying "To be able to afford a $4 million home most people would need to make around $3.3 million a year." is pure nonsense. Even with Bidenflation interest rates, the monthly mortgage payment on a $3.2 million home is about $18,000. Now, that's a lot, but it's not so much that it requires being truly wealthy to afford. If we assume the standard 30% of gross income affordability threshold, then a household income of $720,000 easily affords that house, not seven figures. That's a couple of L7/L8+ tech salaries, which turns out to be who our core buyers are. Push the threshold to 40% AGI, and $540K/yr affords that house, which is L6/L7 level. They are well off, but "upper-class wealthy?" Absolutely not.
So bubbly.
Sorry, my math was off.
Entered in a number on a project.
You'd need to make right around $1 million a year to afford a $4 million home. This is based on the average monthly mortgage payment on a $4 million home being $21.5K. ($18-$25K range) This combined with the mortgage being a maximum of 28% of your gross monthly income.
Regardless - how many American families do you know that make $1 million a year? Not many. Around 6% of American families make that. Regional income levels do NOT matter in this situation.
gwharton For you to state that someone who makes $750K - $1million a year to be 'upper class but not wealthy' not only is disputed by economic data but to me shows that you have no idea what an average American experiences.
FYI: the upper middle class in America is between $94 - $180K a year per individual. That's $188K - $360K a family assuming two working partners. This makes up the top 15% - 20% of the American earners in the US.
Don't believe me - look up the US census data.
It's funny how all American unions and environmental protection groups used to be very strongly anti-immigration until the corporate big-wigs bought them all off.
or was it until they figured that immigrants would strengthen their ranks?
LMFAO do you know anything at all about how the modern American construction industry works?
Do you?
I know a great deal about how the American construction industry work gwharton. Immigration brings in new talent and ideas. I'd think you'd know this. Especially considering that the 'build' portion of your business is over 50% immigrants.
I know 100 % of the framers, roofers, concrete and landscape crews are fresh immigrants, with the rest of the trades soon to follow suit. Most of them built their own homes in less expensive towns less than 2 hours from the job sites. The disdain of the old guard for the skilled labor and great ambition of these guys is appalling, almost xenophobic. BTW there is no "modern american construction industry" it's the same old jerk circle it has been for the last 50 years, only bigger and more scared of competition. Learn spanish and stop whining.
A large number of the people who work for us in construction are foreign-born. None are illegals (we use E-verify). NONE of them are union. Not even one. Which is kind of the whole point, since they are cheap in comparison and that's the number one reason Big Business and the Chamber have been pushing for a giant influx of foreign labor for literally decades. I'm happy to talk about the relative merits of hiring cheap foreign labor over local unions from direct experience if you like. You probably won't like the answers very much, since they don't align with your prejudices.
Also, as it turns out, something like 85-90% of our buyers are ALSO foreign-born, though typically from different places.
gwharton You said mass deportation of illegal immigrants would improve housing and jobs for the average American. When asked for a source you liked an immigration page about legal immigration. You then went on to say: supply and demand is a real thing which can't be ignored because it's inconvenient to your ideology. If you add tens of millions of foreign-born people to a country, it significantly increases demand for housing, and supply for labor.
gwharton's statement "There are tens of millions of foreigners in this country presently who are competing for housing and jobs with natives," and the link he presented in an attempt to back it up where the majority of the people are here legally, and his assertion that his construction labor force and majority of his buyers shows how this is all just political theater to him. If he actually got what he says he wants, he'd be out of work. The economic collapse would put him out of work.
Mind you, this is a criticism of his ability to think through his politics, not what he does for work. If you take what he posts about his work at face value, he's doing a good thing for housing costs.
EA - that's what I was going to say but the site glitched mid edit. gwharton started out saying illegal immigrants then changed to all immigrants. Greg isn't a stupid person. He has to be doing this on purpose and just trolling.
EA and Chad - you are both criticizing a fanciful version of what you think my politics are in your head, rather than what I actually think. This is fairly typical of American political discussions in general these days, on all sides. I'm ignoring EA because of it. I am responding to Chad specifically and only in the context of issues and questions that actually respond to what I am saying and what I actually think about the subject.
Note: if you go back and actually read carefully, you will see that I am not advocating for or against mass deportation, either of illegals or all foreign-born residents of the USA. I am simply pointing out that having them here has real-world consequences, many of which you are all dismissing or even pretending are the opposite of what they really are.
gwharton wrote:
“EA and Chad - you are both criticizing a fanciful version of what you think my politics are in your head, rather than what I actually think. “
No. I’m criticizing what you’re writing here.
“Note: if you go back and actually read carefully, you will see that I am not advocating for or against mass deportation, either of illegals or all foreign-born residents of the USA. “
In the context of the housing discussion, you’re the one that brought up illegal immigrants:
“Mass deportation of illegals is being proposed for other reasons, but there is no question that it would reduce housing demand as a side effect.”
That sure seems like you’re advocating for deportation of illegal immigrants to assist with the housing shortage. If not, why did you bring it up?
You then pivoted to including all immigrants as shown in your comment below.
“I'm not "blaming foreigners". I'm simply pointing out that supply and demand is a real thing which can't be ignored because it's inconvenient to your ideology. If you add tens of millions of foreign-born people to a country, it significantly increases demand for housing, and supply for labor. That's a basic, uncontroversial statement ... though you all seem to really be struggling with it for some reason.”
Oddly, you then admitted that your business is reliant on immigrants.
“A large number of the people who work for us in construction are foreign-born. None are illegals (we use E-verify). NONE of them are union.”
Snick
“Also, as it turns out, something like 85-90% of our buyers are ALSO foreign-born, though typically from different places.”
This makes me wonder why you would bring up removing immigrants to improve housing availability. I know you say you weren’t for or against ‘mass deportation’. However, you did bring it up unprompted, as a solution to housing and job availability.
My reasoning is one of two things happened:
I don’t believe that you don’t understand your political views or that you’re not intelligent enough to see they conflicts in the comments you’ve written here.
Now please excuse me. I have actual architecture to work on. Good day everyone.
gwharton comes into the politics thread, posts about his politics, then complains that we're talking about his politics that he posted in the politics thread. Ignore me more please.
Chad, tbf he wasn't the first to bring up undocumented or illegal immigrants. He responded to my post where I pointed out Trump's campaign brought up mass deportation of undocumented immigrants as housing policy to say something to the effect of "Trump's not wrong, deporting all the illegal immigrants would lower housing demand" without being able to back it up in any meaningful way.
"LMFAO do you know anything at all about how the modern American construction industry works?" Yes, I do. At a variety of scales & complexities. And I don't presume one scale speaks for the various others.
Before everything gets too sidetracked on supply and demand and whatnot ... we have to acknowledge that the only reason we're talking about it is because the Trump campaign is trying to push through mass deportations as housing policy when it's simply thinly-veiled xenophobia and white supremacy.
gwharton just about let it slip when he said, "Mass deportation of illegals is being proposed for other reasons, but there is no question that it would reduce housing demand as a side effect."
The "other reasons" are bad enough that no one should be seriously talking about this as a viable housing policy regardless of whether or not it would temporarily reduce housing demand as a side effect.
The next two months will bring us so much entertainment, then, when trumpistant 2.0 starts, we’ll still be laughing at the m’ericans and their silly circus. Pew pews, bald eagles and fetuses.
I wouldn't laugh too much Non. Like it or not, what America does will have a noticeable impact to the rest of the world. Especially our polite hat, aka 'The Great White North', aka 'War Criminal Central'.
Chad... there are some effects... but it's cute that you think America is so important that we ought to worry. 8-) You're not that important, anymore. Also, where's that elk?
I've only been out hunting for one day so far - be patient!
Trust me - Canada worries.
Your a hat to a country that is actively trying to re-electing fat orange baby who thinks he's been chosen by gowd to rule the world. I mean he'll probably get distracted by a porn star and McDonalds before he can do much but he still has access to the nukes. The guy could hit the wrong button when trying to order a Diet Coke.
Then again - the orange one could just say Canada has American oil and . . . . eeep. 8-)
Yes, absolutely. Cesar Chavez was very strongly opposed to both illegal AND legal immigrant labor in the USA.
In fact, Cesar's stated positions on immigrant labor make Trump look like a moderate on the subject.
Stop. You're embarrassing yourself. https://ufw.org/cesar-chavez-and-ufw-longtime-champions-of-immigration-reform/
"At one UFW meeting, Dolores Huerta, co-founder of the union with Chavez and always a more conventional leftist than he, foreshadowed today’s anti-borders agitators, objecting to the words “wetback” and “illegal”: “The people themselves aren’t illegal. The action of being in this country maybe is illegal.” Pawel relates Chavez’s response, from a tape recording of the meeting: “Chavez turned on Huerta angrily. ‘No, a spade’s a spade,’ he said. ‘You guys get these hang-ups. Goddamn it, how do we build a union? They’re wets, you know. They’re wets, and let’s go after them.’”"
"Cesar Chavez Legacy: From ‘Wet Lines’ To An ‘Illegals Campaign,' A Dark Side In Latino Icon’s Opposition To Undocumented Immigrants"
https://www.latintimes.com/cesar-chavez-legacy-wet-lines-illegals-campaign-dark-side-latino-icons-opposition-162528
gwharton - you're misrepresenting things. Chavez was against illegal immigration as is applied to using illegals as strike breakers.
I gotta brag on my wife some because she was instruamental in getting a street in town named after Dolores Huerta and has met her a few times. My wife started an orginization called Las Mujeres de LULAC here.
Delores came for the cerimony and marched a 2 mile route with everyone in 90° heat at 90 yrs old. The old broad still has it!
In case you haven't noticed, the dangerous rhetoric (stochastic terrorism) being pushed by the Trump campaign about immigration in Springfield, OH isn't just about "illegals" or undocumented immigrants. In fact, a lot of the reporting is accurately indicating that these immigrants are here legally as naturalized citizens or under temporary protected status.
This is an escalation of their xenophobic and white supremacist ideologies and it should not be allowed anywhere near an elected office. They are banking on being able to get elected, deport legal immigrants (as well as undocumented ones) and even naturalized citizens that have too much melanin. They are using xenophobic references to jobs and housing and public health as cover for their white supremacy.
I wonder why gwharton gave this a thumbs down? EA's statement is accurate and correct. Trumps platform is stating that all immigrants are the problem, not just illegal ones.
I thought gwharton was ignoring me. He probably just doesn't like that the quiet parts are being said so loudly right now. It's easier to exist as a conservative among polite company when the party you support isn't so openly racist. Trump's VP candidate is straight up saying he's making things up. Being called "weird" was just too much for JD to handle. He thought that it would be better to be called a lying racist instead.
Vance Sticks By Pet-Eating Claims and Says He’s Willing to ‘Create Stories’ (NYT)
gwharton said he is ignoring you EA. I personally think it's just a means to not have to deal with 'hard' issues.
From the linked article:
"Gov. Mike DeWine of Ohio, a Republican, said in an interview on ABC News on Sunday morning that the claim that migrants were eating pets was “a piece of garbage that was simply not true.” He said that while there were some “challenges” involved in accommodating thousands of migrants, they had benefited Springfield economically."
It sure seems like Trump and Vance are lying. I wonder why Trump supporters are being quiet on this?
A lot of us have given up trying to engage with any of you on this stuff because it's like arguing with a television set. It's a waste of time and energy.
When your engagement is as weak as it is, I'm not surprised you give up. You make it pretty easy to poke holes in your arguments.
Like in the previous page of this thread when you tried to use misleading graphs to show the left has shifted further left, when in reality it was showing the left becoming more ideologically consistent (the actual point of the graphs), and when you dig in deeper the only reason the right hadn't become more ideologically consistent is because some of them were recognizing the issues of being xenophobic and homophobic.
Let's be concise:
Do you gwharton agree with a political group fabricating stories about immigrants eating pets?
Thank you both for so immediately proving my point. I'm changing the channel to something more interesting now.
.
gwharton wrote:
"A lot of us have given up trying to engage with any of you on this stuff because it's like arguing with a television set. It's a waste of time and energy.
Thank you both for so immediately proving my point. I'm changing the channel to something more interesting now. "
There are only a few people here who have 'given up' engaging with me on 'this stuff'. Both of them are online trolls
How did I prove your point? I seriously want to know how you feel about this.
Chad, I think we hurt his feelings
I sincerely hope not. I don't with to belittle or make fun of someone's political views within reason. If you're going to back say a fascist dictator or Nazi then I will relentlessly make fun of you. Just to be clear - I'm not calling Trump or Vance either of those things.
Nah, I think he just doesn't like it when we say he's defending the racists, xenophobes, homophobes, and liars. He wants to be able to ignore those things and direct attention to things like supply and demand. And to be clear, if he was doing that in service of something else like a coherent economic policy, I'd let him cook. But not when it's in the service of the aforementioned lying racists who are so power hungry they will endanger the lives of their own constituents to seize a little more.
He doesn't think that the people he supports are racists, xenophobes, homophobes, and liars. I suspect that he's tried of constantly having to defend those he supports. It probably frustrates him that the majority of the 'evidence' he posts is shown to be a misunderstanding on his point or simply untrue.
Despite all of that I still enjoy speaking with him about his views and value his opinions.
I follow a lot of international newspapers and websites. Trump is a laughingstock of the world, of course, it touches American society too when they generalize. I think this is the funniest.
Dark humor.
You should consider the alternate possibility that they are all lying to you.
To be perfectly honest Orhan, I dislike Trump, but Biden/Harris have made America the most hated country in the world, with their neoliberal hawkish shit.
With Trump we were a joke (and will be again) but with Biden-Harris we were evil incarnate.
who is lying? I mean, Do you really think Trump is the great savior? I understand you voting for your personal benefit, but if you admire a human like trump, ufff.
I'm just suggesting you all consider that your beliefs about all this are not aligned with reality, and a major reason for that is official media channels have been systematically lying. The electoral rejection they just got at the national level is at least cause for some reflection on that score. But hey, if you want to just double down then go for it.
not answering the question is a great way to reaffirm your beliefs. official media? wtf is that? is that official media in the room with us now? double down? yes, trump is a horrible human being, proven by decades of bigotry, racism, misogyny and lies, aside form his failed business endeavors, and his constant whining about having to abide by the law like everybody else. You just like him because he will lower your taxes, would you let your daughter spend an afternoon with him?
sameold, howso? trump moved the embassy to jerusalem. he will not be the good guy in that conflict. supporting ukraine is the right thing to do so russia's colonial conquest doesn't push into our nato allies. seems trump will let putin take what he wants. where is trump the better person here? will trump defend taiwan? shouldn't he if he needs to?
In local Indiana politics, we have a carpetbagger Republican candidate for governor, and his co-governor is a woman-hating bible literalist, running against a centrist Democrat. Currently they are running almost even, but...of course there's an idiot Libertarian candidate siphoning off 9% of the vote. If people vote for the Libertarian there's still no way he wins, but if they vote for the Dem they *will* be voting for a candidate who wants to legalize marijuana, so....come on, Libertarians! Third party candidates at high level aren't viable! Grrr.
Unless we get rank choice voting of some type a third party candidate will NEVER have a chance. :(
It's "ranked choice;" "rank choice" is wording meant to undermine its legitimacy by using the root word as a pejorative. We have it for many state elections here in Maine and it's been great so far.
rank choice is what we have now
Ha ha ha. Freudian slip I guess. ;)
I'm not against third party; I'd love to have more parties. But the way to make that viable is to start at local offices and build up over decades, not to launch one noisy person into a major election every four years.
I think the only way to get that is ranked choice voting. I got it right that time! ;)
When confronted with the fact that the immigrants he's attacking as *illegals* are actually here legally, JD decides to double down and say it doesn't matter, he's going to keep calling them *illegals* because he's racist and he really wants mass deportations.
JD Vance Will Still Call Legal Haitian Immigrants 'Illegal': Here's Why (Newsweek)
I can't believe this dude is a sitting senator. He needs to resign and seek counseling. Ohio, you deserve better.
Vance is a known and well documented opportunist.
Even republicans and former collages say that Vance has zero credibility and will support anyone who will be beneficial for him. They've also said that Vance will 'drop' anyone when they're not useful to him.
WITAF, America?!? Egg prices aren’t coming down cuz you voted for a con man!
Just depressing — it’s so regressive; so self-harming…
I’ll go do my small biz taxes and get my unneeded forthcoming tax break, but what about infrastructure, strong trade, the environment, equality, housing equity, health care, neutrality/equity in the justice system, international relations, etc?
M'erica... y'all asked for this. Pew pew.
" infrastructure, strong trade, the environment, equality, housing equity, health care, neutrality/equity in the justice system, international relations" - If by international relations you mean with Europe and the UK, sure Biden/Harris succeeded, but no where else.
Actually, CO voted for Harris.
Odd... it's an old graphic. Dates back to the Bush admin... not sure if senior of junior, but not like that matters.
This is the map NON
^I'm aware, but mine gets the point across at CO & NM's expense I guess.
CO approved a state law to award all of their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote in the Presidential election, so technically Trump won CO too. ;-)
Not really. We also passed right to abortion, women's right to decide their medical care, the right for gay marriage, and increased funding for public schools so . . . .
Harris could have called for an arms embargo to Israel and have won this election. It wouldn't have been easy, but the 3rd party and stay-at-home voters in the swing states would have voted democrat.
Don't get me wrong, Trump will likely finish in gaza what biden started, but it just highlights how wrong the liberals have had it. Time to go to brunches and talk shit about progressives I guess.
I don't think that would of mattered. The data seems to show the 3rd party and non voters wouldn't of made a difference in the swing states.
Maybe not, Odd, but there are about 32 surveys that show that an arms embargo would have made Harris slide over the edge.
yes, supporting genocide was a red line for many people.
Do you have any links to the surveys SOD? I'm genuinely curious. The data I've seen so far is saying it wouldn't of been enough to have Harris win. The data I've seen could very well be old though.
JLC-1 wrote:
"yes, supporting genocide was a red line for many people."
While I agree with that I do find it odd that some would knowingly vote so that Trump would be elected. Trump, a man who would literally nuke Palestine.
Seems like a cutting off your nose to spite your face type of situation.
What do I know though. I'm just an architect who likes to hunt things with a pointy stick.
Carry on.
Nice, so this proves that the Israelis could have tens of thousands of people killed so their president could get elected (and make shady deals to profit his family)
Netanyahu could take steps to end wars after Trump's win, Middle East officials say
Oh, I have no doubt the Netanyahu could end the 'war' whenever he wanted to. I'm still interested in your source for the "about 32 surveys that show that an arms embargo would have made Harris slide over the edge".
I've seriously looked and didn't find any credible surveys. I'm not doubting you, I just can't find much.
32 wow. That sure is a lot. I am completely convinced that you are not an abject failure at basic citizenship. Have you thought about maybe a side gig at Ellis Island or Arlington Cemetery? You seem to be a natural for something suitablely patriotic.
That attitude is symbolic of you neo liberal twats, noonehere ... Go cry into your latte for the next 4 years while us progressives try to dream up something different.
You don't get it. How are you going to do anything? They are going to dissolve the Constitution. There will be nothing to build on. Geez. Are you really so stupid that you think there will be another election in 4 years? Is that what you tell yourself? It was made crystal clear what was at stake.
I'd like to see the 32 surveys as well. Or one.
Still waiting on those surveys. I'm genuinely curious.
On a related note. I hear that Trump states he will end the war in Gaza in 48 hours. Apparently this will be done by attacking Iran if they don't stop supporting Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis.
one of the thing I'm hearing is people saying "if you would have done what i told you to do you would have won." i don't think this is correct in any context.
That's because most people greatly overestimate their own intelligence and experience. The smartest, most experienced people always seem to be the ones that say ' I'm not sure ' They understand that many issues are complex and require a nuanced response to create a beneficial resolution.
To put this succinctly :
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts and the stupid ones are full of confidence"
Bertran Russell
Measles, polio, and small pox don't recognize state lines. Have any family on social security, Medicare, Medicaid? Any family members with veterans benefits?
Enjoy your latte.
Having RFK in charge of the health department is one of the scarier aspects of the situation. I liked some of his thoughts on the environment, but that's all out the window now.
Hopefully RFK as health czar won't last but a Scaramucci or two at most. that guy is nuts.
I've been enjoying dressing in bright colors recently, as I grew tired of dressing "like an architect" now that I'm older and trying to find joy. But I'm back to black now. All black today, and my Screw U necklace. And a bright red lip because I'm 57 years old and I don't give a damn what men think about how my face looks.
you sounds nice Donna
NOMA put out a good statement reaffirming commitment to community and equity in the built environment. https://www.noma.net/noma-pres...
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