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tduds
threeohdoor

Honestly, if she had any real insight or fortitude, I would entertain the thought of voting for her. She is, after all, the stop all wars candidate. But she never really offered anything else other than a pretty face and joe rogan podcast appearance (there's a venn diagram there I'm sure)

 · 
x-jla

Kind of agree that she was too focused on that one issue, but she was the only candidate that appeared genuine to me

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tduds

I'm sure the conspiracy nuts will have a field day with this endorsement.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/tulsi-gabbard-drops-out-of-presidential-race-endorses-biden/2020/03/19/c723f8f4-4d07-11ea-9b5c-eac5b16dafaa_story.html

Mar 19, 20 12:21 pm  · 
 · 
x-jla

Tulsi got the raw deal. She needs to leave the DNC. She was light years better than sleepy creepy Biden.

 · 

How about that Justin Amash? Gunning to run for president on the Libertarian ticket. What is everyone thinking ... will he take votes away from Trump, or will he take votes away from Biden?

May 5, 20 12:34 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Both. This is a brief good thing for immediate Democracy because of the ant-democratic problems with first past the post, but it won't, in the long run, do anything to solve them.

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x-jla

He will get my vote. Otherwise I’m not voting. Biden is a senile rapist and Trump is a narcissist.

 · 

My secret hope is that he'll take away votes from Trump in a demonstrable way which will influence more people to support ranked choice voting or something like that so you can vote third-party without feeling like you've thrown away your vote.

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x-jla

So you think Biden will be better because what? He sexually assaults in a more democratic way?

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tduds

"Biden is a senile rapist and Trump is a narcissistic senile rapist." FTFY

2  · 

jla-x, I'm not sure where you're seeing in this little aside that I expressed a desire for Biden over Trump. I simply stated that I hope Amash's third-party run pulls support away from Trump in a demonstrable manner. The reasoning is that I think more Republicans oppose measures like ranked choice voting and if they can see that Amash get's a lot of votes, that might have picked Trump as their second-choice vote, they might be more open to it when it comes up. No, I don't think ranked-choice voting is the answer to all the US's issues, but I think it could help more third-party candidates in local and state elections which might eventually have a shot at influencing congressional and presidential elections.

2  · 
x-jla

Oh, I agree. I’d prefer to see parties abolished all together. They serve no real purpose. They have an obvious polarizing effect that is anti intellectual. This idea that beliefs are static and come in bundle packages is the most troubling thing to me. Yes, Amash will likely take votes away from Trump which is good, but he will also likely take some away from Biden which is also good. There are many many “liberals” that are really libertarians. Libertarians share more in common with liberals on civil issues than with republicans. We believed in gay marriage, open borders, prison reform, ending bs wars, and legalized pot before it was cool. I’ll admit, this is a bad time for Amash’s to run. Coronavirus and small government is gonna be a hard sell. It’s tantamount to if Tulsi Was running in 2004 post 9-11.

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x-jla

As for ranked choice, I think it’s a good idea.

 · 

I think a popular vote distribution of each states electoral votes would be a good system. For example in the last election California's 55 electoral votes would have been 18.26 Trump and 33.83 Clinton. I think a system like this would allow a third party choice to have a chance of working.

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x-jla

I agree, but don’t think that the popular vote is necessarily the better candidate...especially when the population is so poorly informed. Political parties are a bundle deal for ignorant voters.

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tduds

Political parties are an inevitable result of the coalition-building inherent in representative democracy, and a two party system is the inevitable result of first past the post voting. Talking about eliminating parties or moving to a multi-party democracy is useless without addressing the way we vote. You can't "abolish parties", you can only create the conditions that facilitate their dwindling.

1  · 

I would like to see more states get rid of plurality take all awarding of electors and adopt a system like Nebraska or Maine. 

I'm not such a big fan of the popular vote winner take all nationally either that some states are trying to establish as a counter to the electoral college process. I'm not sure if I'm describing that correctly. I'm referring to the coalition of states that are trying to award the states' electors to the winner of the national popular vote if they can gain enough states to join where the total of the coalition's electors would get the national vote winner past the post.

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Wood Guy

tduds, we now have ranked-choice voting here in Maine for local elections, as it's not allowed for Federal elections. Most intelligent people like it, but it is surprisingly confusing to others. I believe we have more independent voters than any other state and only enrolled voters can participate in primary elections, so I can see what you mean about needing to change the way we vote.

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x-jla

Really in Maine...how long has it been that way?

 · 
Non Sequitur

Saw this make the rounds in my social media. Post image

May 7, 20 11:42 am  · 
2  · 
citizen

^ I love this! But we should be clear that many other demographic categories could easily star in this meme.

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x-jla

if you vote Biden, and “believe all women” You would be voting for a sexual predator because you believe her and still vote.  

May 7, 20 12:17 pm  · 
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curtkram

the other option is to vote for a sexual predator. i'm sorry tara reade.

 · 

'Believe all women' means you take the accusations seriously and have an investigation regardless of who the accused is and if the statue of limitations has passed. You can vote for Biden and still 'believe all women'

2  · 

Shh, we don't need to bring nuance into this discussion. Broad brushes are the best to paint with.

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Wood Guy

I don't know a single person who wanted Biden, but that's who the left got, thanks to a dysfunctional and corrupt process. The liberals I know believe his accusers, or at least don't disbelieve them, but our options at this point are to vote for him anyway, or vote for Trump (directly or indirectly), with a well documented history of, well, everything. So we can vote for Biden, AND believe his accusers. And work for a better system.

1  ·  1
Wood Guy

Ooh, my first thumbs down, by somebody hiding behind a new name. Now my feelings are hurt.

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EA - yet jla-x keeps insulting people for not having a nuanced point of view. Apparently that only applies to its viewpoints. :)

 · 

He's only doing it because I've been pointing out his lack of nuance recently. It has made him use the word "nuance" more in his recent posts, but not actually incorporate it into his thinking and arguments ... so progress?

 · 

No progress from jla-x - just hypocrisy and more lies.

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x-jla

Chad, like I said, not playing your game. There is no nuance in the decision. You either believe the accuser and vote anyway, therefore vote for a sexual predator, or you don’t believe her, and no longer “believe all women”. When Kavanaugh was up there the opinions on the left were clear. There was no room for nuance. Now we need nuance...ok. Personally I don’t believe all women. I think that’s a retarded statement. Women lie, men lie, etc. I believe most women in sexual assault cases, but not all. That’s a silly statement that the left made. Now they have to live with that dilemma.

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x-jla

Talked themselves into a corner, now they look like huge hypocrites.

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jla-x NO. I said you have an investigation first I wasn't discussing the democrats views but my own. Right now it's an accusation. If Biden was shown to have sexually assaulted that women then I would not vote for him

Your comments on not believing all women implies that some women you do believe and others you simply dismiss without allowing for any type of investigation.  That is BS.  As for your use of 'retarded'  - not only are you a lying hypocrite but you're an insensitive bigot as well.  

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x-jla

Chad, that word isn’t offensive to me. I think it’s a good word as long as you don’t call a mentally retarded person regarded as an insult. The word is fine. I don’t care that the pc police outlawed it. I never got a vote. I would have voted to keep it, as would the knuckle dragging blue collar folks I grew up with. I don’t take my language directives from upper middle class pc snobs.

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tduds

"..to me" speaks volumes about your worldview.

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Wood Guy

jla-x, how is it nuanced? With Biden we are clearly stating that we're voting for the (much) lesser of two evils. I would have gladly taken almost any of the other candidates over Biden.

If Kavenaugh had been paired against someone more evil, it would have been easier to accept his nomination. But it was just him.

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x-jla

Tduds, I grew up saying that word. I’ve never seen it actually offend anyone. People like chad pretend to be offended, but they are really just trying to impose their political/religious beliefs onto others. Telling people what to say like cranky old ladies.

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x-jla

Wood guy, “ You either believe the accuser and vote anyway, therefore vote for a sexual predator, or you don’t believe her, and no longer “believe all women”....2 choices. Not a nuanced thing at all. You are opting for the first one. That’s fine. Just don’t want to see anyone with a pussy hat in the ballot box or I’m making fun of them, because they are being hypocrites.

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x-jla

"..to me" speaks volumes about your worldview......speaks volumes to me that you think it’s ones responsibility to form a universal objective world/moral view. I have my view, you have yours.

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jla-x, I think the point others are trying to make is that they are making the decision based on nuance. Just because you choose not to view the situation with any nuance doesn't mean others aren't. 

In short, your criticism is unfounded because you choose not to see the situation with any nuance.

 · 

That's fine jla-x. My world view is that you're a lying, hypocritical bigot who believes in conspiracy theory's because you feel powerless and vulnerable. You want to make sense of what you don't comprehend and absolve yourself of fault so you don't have to change your viewpoint when proven incorrect.  

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x-jla

I’m not saying that you as an individual aren’t applying nuance to the decision. I’m saying that there is a lot of hypocrisy as to when nuance is applied. Sometimes it suits one party to use absolute black and white statements like “believe all women”. “Kavanaugh is a rapist!” Other times it suits them to use nuance. “Well Biden may have or not blah blah...”. It usually has to do with who’s running...it’s this kind Of tribal politics that is corrosive.

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jla-x - NO. You stated that I had no nuance to my decision.

You wrote:

 'There is no nuance in the decision. You either believe the accuser and vote anyway, therefore vote for a sexual predator, or you don’t believe her, and no longer “believe all women”."

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x-jla

Chad, we are all powerless and vulnerable. We live on a little planet plowing through space. We live in a country run by corporations and political hacks. We get to chose between the lesser or two evils. We can be wiped out at any moment by a tiny virus, or a huge asteroid. I don’t “believe“ conspiracy theories, I just don’t “believe” official narratives either, so I entertain them and keep an open mind. I’m old enough to remember conspiracy theories that turned out to be official narratives. I’m not a bigot, at all, I just don’t take language as seriously as you do. Where I come from we speak in an exaggerated and non-litteral way. We call friends assholes and enemies pals...I believe in evolution of culture, not top down revolution. Words go out of fashion, and new slang comes into fashion.

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x-jla

Chad, to the latter post of yours, see my reply to EA. You are applying nuance to this vote conveniently....but then accuse trump voters of being complicit with a racist because he is, Kavanaugh supporters of being complicit with a sexual predator because he is, etc. The rules are being changed now. You can use NUANCE! You can vote for a sexual predator and not be complicit with one because you are hoping he does other good things. If you can use NUANCE to vote for Biden and not be complicit, is it also then possible for a trump supporter to not vote for trump and not be complicit with his sexual predation and racism?

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tduds

"They have their own view of what is 'world view'." 

That's what the term means, yes.

This is the dumbest fucking thread. Peace.

1  · 

No. I have issue with any supporter that don't care if their candidate was accused of sexual assault / racism, thievery, ect. and didn't want an investigation to prove innocence or guilt because the outcome didn't matter to them to make a decision. Sure no one candidate perfectly aligns with every other individuals views. However each person has line in the sand so to speak where certain behavior simply isn't acceptable regardless of the other good things a person may do. That's personal integrity.

1  · 
x-jla

As long as you call for the investigation when it’s against a political rival as well. That’s totally the right thing then, and I agree, but many people on the left, and the dnc, weren’t calling for fair investigation when it was politically convenient for the rival to be demonized, they were asking the public to “believe.”

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x-jla

I’m fact, those of us that “called for due process” were called names and accused of being bad people. This wasn’t too long ago, did everyone forget?

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x-jla

To be clear, i find political tribalism to be the grossest threat to the country. “Believe all women” was never a true statement that the left believed in...it was a tribal chant...

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Wood Guy

One note about the "R" word--my sister in law is a nurse who works with adults who are cognitively disabled and she has let me know in no uncertain terms that if she ever hears me use that word, my head will be cleaved from my neck. They are people with a disability and it is an offensive term. You don't get to decide if it's an ok word, they (and those who work with them) do. You don't call people with other disabilities "cripples," do you? Maybe you do...

1  · 
tduds

Frankly I've stopped giving a shit about the presidential election. 

It matters less to me who occupies the white house and more that the Republican party is out of the majority in both houses of congress. A 2nd term of Trump requires actual accountability, and a Democratic congress will use Biden as a rubber stamp to enact more progressive legislation. 

The best case scenario of 2020 is that it makes the office of the president less powerful & less relevant. 

Also my Oregon democratic primary ballot finally arrived and Liz Warren is still on it, so I can vote happily just this once.

May 7, 20 12:33 pm  · 
2  · 
x-jla

The democrats and republicans equally do not care about the people. Having an even balance of power between the two parties keeps them from doing more damage.

1  · 
x-jla

The parties are just 2 different brands of bullshit. Like Apple appealing to a certain hip socially aware demographic...but then manufactures shit in Chinese sweat shops. It’s all bull. The game is power. They want more. They get more of it by taking it from you.

1  · 
x-jla

Cuomo is the only one who can beat trump.

 ·  1
tduds

"The democrats and republicans ... do not care about the people." 

I agree with this but I disagree with "equally"

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SneakyPete

Political parties are clubs. Bands of supposedly like-minded people gathering their clout. Their benefits are given via laws at a federal and state level, making "get(ting) rid of political parties" something of a quixotic endeavor.

1  · 
tduds

lol Cuomo. Hilarious.

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

First!

Sep 1, 20 2:58 pm  · 
1  · 

If you're on twitter and haven't seen this thread from over the weekend, you're missing out. I love it and hate it, both at the same time. 

Sep 1, 20 5:48 pm  · 
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x-jla

Kamala Harris is the worst...3-2-1 Debate!

Sep 1, 20 10:27 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Mike Pence is worse.

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x-jla

Why?

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randomised

Depends who for, for young black males trying to make it work Kamala Harris has been the absolute worst, broke up more Black families than Tinder...With his stance on abortion, Mike Pence is actually somehow responsible for the formation of families, people trying to make it work together after a hook up and no possibility of an abortion...they are the exact opposite in every way, she breaks up Black families and puts Black men in jail(which in the US means forced them into slavery), he brings them together because of his religious views...

 ·  1
SneakyPete

wow.

2  · 

That is some grade AAA, premium trolling right there rando. That type of post needs proper paperwork documenting provenance.

1  · 
SneakyPete

.


6  · 
Non Sequitur

This certificate is genius.

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tduds

Love the "ignore every actual event that's ever happened and wildly extrapolate hypotheticals" method of argument there, Rando.

1  · 
randomised

Thanks tduds, that’s what won me the Internet! No matter what happens in the future nobody will ever take that from me, September 2nd 2020 the day I won the entire internet, simply by stating the god honest truth, who would have thought in the time of leftist fascism and media bias to actually win the internets with the facts...thanks SneakyPete, you’re very good people!

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tduds

Nothing makes me cringe harder than replying to funny sarcasm with extremely unfunny sarcasm.

1  · 

"god honest truth" in that statement means, "what those with an honest belief in god want to be the truth while ignoring what happens in reality (the actual truth)."

1  · 
randomised

I don’t know EA, I don’t believe in god...

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randomised

What sarcasm tduds, it is factually true that Kamala Harris locked up lots of Black men and subsequently is responsible for a generation of Black kids growing up without their fathers present whereas Pence is at least morally responsible for the fact men will become fathers!

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You used the phrasing, I was just responding to it in context. I won't try to wrap my head around the mental gymnastics it takes for you to invoke god to indicate the truth of something, if (in truth) you don't believe god exists to be the arbiter of truth ... you do you.

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randomised

Just taking in the facts doesn’t take that much mental gymnastics EA, I’m sure you’re able to...

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curtkram

it looks like biden is shitposting on twitter like the president does, but it seems he puts more thought into what he makes public.  i wonder if there will be a biden 'covfefe' moment?

Sep 1, 20 10:31 pm  · 
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randomised

I’d be more worried about Biden’s inherent racism than some silly misspelling honestly...

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SneakyPete

Biden's inherent racism worries you? Interesting.

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randomised

More so than some spelling errors in a tweet that go viral, yes. Doesn’t that worry you? Interesting!

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x-jla

Trump isn’t racist, he’s just a narcissist who happens to be white.

 ·  1

Naw, he's a racist who's also a narcissist.

2  · 
x-jla

True racism is not as common as the media propaganda would make you believe. biden and Harris are just career climbers. They would do or say anything to get ahead.

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SneakyPete

Please define "true racism."

1  · 
x-jla

A person or system that treats one differently based on their immutable racial characteristics.

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tduds

Yeah the guy whose first big move as a professional adult involved getting sued for keeping black tenants out of his housing projects... that guy isn't racist at all.

3  · 
x-jla

A system can be codified with racism, or can be codified to treat everyone equally yet have people within it who practice racism. This is a big difference. The latter cannot be solved with protest, only individual enlightenment. The former can be solved through unrest.

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randomised

But getting sued is not a move, was he actually found guilty by the way?

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SneakyPete

Please define "immutable racial characteristics."

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tduds

jla - exactly. & also we live in the first system. That's what we've all been trying to say.

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tduds

"Under an agreement reached in June 1975, Trump Management was required to furnish the New York Urban League with a list of all apartment vacancies, every week, for two years. It was also to allow the league to present qualified applicants for every fifth vacancy in Trump buildings where fewer than 10 percent of the tenants were black." (https://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2015/07/30/1973-meet-donald-trump/) (also https://www.nytimes.com/2016/0...)

So you have a settlement to avoid an official admission of guilt, which is a very lawyerly way of getting around an actual hearing / trial in which you'd probably lose. All this to say that "technically not admitting guilt" isn't really a slam dunk counterpoint to being racist as hell. I could point to dozens more examples (Central Park Five, anyone? Birtherism? Accusations among his hotel employees) but you can do your own research if you care.

1  · 
x-jla

No we don’t tduds, that’s what I’m tryin to say. There are not any laws on the books that allow the state to treat a specific racial group differently. The way laws are applied may be different, but again, that’s the doing of a person within the system. Please name a specific law on the books today that refers to a specific racial group.

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x-jla

Since you brought it up, the Central Park 5 is a good one. What racially specific law led to that unjust outcome ?

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x-jla

I’ll give you one...crack cocaine sentences are an underhanded codified racism...but not racially specific technically.

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x-jla

“Please define "immutable racial characteristics." SP- the way we physically look or are born...hair, skin tone, etc...

 · 

You're looking too narrowly if you're focusing on codification (laws) supporting racism. There is a middle ground you're glossing over and that's where there isn't necessarily codified racism, and it's not just racist individuals, but a systematic racism supported by codification and racist individuals. That's where your crack cocaine sentencing comes in. 

It's not necessarily codified racism, and it's not an individual judge acting racist in how they hand out sentences, but rather a system that supports the unknowing racist (probably sometimes knowingly racist) actions of those individuals (in power) to hand out harsher sentencing because it has been "codified" in sentencing guidelines put in place by other individuals unknowingly (or knowingly) supporting racism. 

There are a lot of examples that fit into the middle ground. This is the hard one to solve because it requires rethinking the system, not just a law here or there, or dealing with some individuals here or there.

1  · 
tduds

"Please reduce a complex web of explicit & implicit biases, vestigial generational trauma, and persistent economic / environmental inequalities into a single example of a law." 

No. I cannot and will not try.

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tduds

The simplest way I can explain it is this: The problems in the US are class problems, but because of the residual effects of the way we codified class until ~40 years ago, they are - in effect - racial problems. 

We haven't finished digging ourselves out of the cultural  / systemic pit we built, and we're acting like the fact that we stopped digging was enough.

 · 
x-jla

Yes, exactly. I agree. Without a law that is explicitly codified, as it once was pre civil rights movement, protests and/or riots are not effective means of change. Because the racism is coming from individuals, within a system that appears fair on paper, “Eliminating racism” is essentially the exact same thing as “eliminating ignorance” and “eliminating power thirst”. Those are not short term solvable issues, but instead require long term shifts in culture, which has been steadily happening.

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tduds

Sure okay. I can't speak for the world (though I think many anti-racist activists would agree with me), but my aims are not "eliminating racism" but rather "introducing consequences for racists", which our country is severely lacking. A system that makes racist cops not racist is a huge lift. A system that makes racist cops not cops is pretty easy, if you try.

1  · 
x-jla

In other words, the constitution can be a perfect document, applied imperfectly, and still be a perfect document. Application of that document (Or whatever document or law) in a “more perfect” way should be the goal. If that were the spirit, the country would be united, but instead the left has decided that the US is inherently evil and must be torn down. That’s where the division is coming in.

 · 
tduds

Ahhh we were so close.

1  · 
x-jla

Take second amendment for example...you’d be a pretty big dummy to assume that black people can access that liberty to the same degree as whites in practice. They cannot. That doesn’t delegitimize the amendment, instead it says that we must ensure that it’s equally accessible. It is on paper, but it’s not in practice.

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x-jla

Tduds, please provide an example of a “consequence for racists”?

 · 
tduds

Arrest the cops who shot Breonna Taylor is a popular one that's going around.

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tduds

I think, not so much police brutality in general but the culture of Policing that protects offenders - the "thin blue line" / "blue wall of silence" - is an example of systemic racism. The fact that it requires significant public outcry *every single time* an example of racist police brutality comes to light, rather than the system being able (well, willing) to deliver justice internally, is an example of "a lack of consequences."

 · 
SneakyPete

Please explain how to change a system -a system that has relied on codified racism for most of its existence and used codified racism to bolster itself against being dismantled at every opportunity-  from within said system.

1  · 
tduds
SneakyPete

I would not have called it "defunding," but I don't get to pick the words other people use. Then again I also looked into the actual policies being discussed under those words and found I agreed with the ideas instead of just copping out and using a dictionary to avoid critical thinking.

3  · 
x-jla

“Please explain how to change a system -a system that has relied on codified racism for most of its existence and used codified racism to bolster itself against being dismantled at every opportunity- from within said system.“. But but but...the system has been changing for the better slowly over time. Radicals want instant change. That’s not possible without an enormous degree of authoritarian controls. So being the one who’s calling for radical change, you explain to me how we fix things?

 · 
x-jla

Liberals are good at pointing out problems, but terrible at finding solutions. Conservatives are bad at pointing out problems, but good at making sure they continue.

 · 
tduds

I'd settle for "faster" rather than "instant"

 · 
SneakyPete

You're pretty lousy at both. You're good at calling other people out, but fail to admit you're just as incapable of finding solutions as anyone. I don't claim to have solutions, but I also don't pretend the problems aren't as bad as they are just to make myself feel superior.

 · 
x-jla

Yeah, but the US system DOES tends towards being better over time, and breaking that system has consequences. I’d settle for “better“ then “worse”

 · 
x-jla

Keep making it better. We designers know that tabula rasa ideas are often disastrous.

 · 
tduds

Personally, I think one single thing (not easy, but single) that could solve a lot of problems is to normalize amending the Constitution. It was intended as an imperfect, incomplete document. We were given a mechanism to evolve our national contract in alignment with our national culture, but somewhere along the way folks got all 'Religious' about it and now we're stuck with a calcified 18th century text trying to handle 21st century problems. Jefferson suggested it be re-written wholesale every 20 years. That might be extreme, but surely a middle ground exists. There should be hundreds of Amendments, not 27 (the last ~10 of which are mostly so minor & technical they don't impact our lives in a significant way) .

1  · 
x-jla

SP, not trying to prove people wrong...it’s just debate...A novel “solution” would maybe be to require every officer to be a big brother/big sister to a kid from the neighborhood. Essentially combine policing with community service. That would maybe help somewhat.

 · 
x-jla

But me commenting on that, or the mob demanding things, is like an average citizen making demands about architecture. I don’t know enough about policing, and neither do you.

 · 
SneakyPete

I know that police are asked to do much, much more than they should be due to the inconsistent or unavailable resources for things like mental health, housing, food, drug addiction, etc.

2  · 
tduds

That's a weird sentiment... Protests are an expression of anger of unacceptable outcomes. Their aim is to get the people who *do* know enough about policing and/or have the political knowledge to craft policy off their butts, to work on inputs that result in more acceptable outcomes. Expecting the protesters to bring their own inputs is expecting too much, imo. I don't go to a restaurant with my own recipes...

3  · 
x-jla

Tduds, but the problem is when you create an anti-police sentiment it causes people to be more violent or disrespectful towards police, and then police will be violent or disrespectful back. Police are people. We shouldn’t elevate them to a higher standard while holding the behavior of the community to a lower standard.
It’s completely counterproductive.

 · 
tduds

I didn't create anti-police sentiment. Decades of unaccountable brutality doled out disproportionately to disadvantaged communities did. If the police are acting this way because people are finally asking for accountability, they're telling on themselves.

2  · 
x-jla

The hyperbole is exacerbating this sentiment.

 · 
SneakyPete

Police should absolutely be held to a higher standard. Lead by example. Pay them commensurate to the job, but tighten the standards.

2  · 
tduds

Hyperbolic or not, the response to being called out on brutality is not more brutality.

 · 
x-jla

Let me fix that- “Hyperbolic or not, the response to calling out others on brutality is not more brutality.”

 · 
tduds

I rarely bring this up because it's anecdotal, but my father was a cop for 32 years (retired about 5 years ago) and whenever we talk about this he mostly agrees with me. He finds the lack of accountability disgusting, and the defense of bad officers insulting to good ones.

I think if you really dug in you'd find that more cops silently feel this way, but stay silent because of a professional culture that punishes speaking out. That culture is what needs fixing, and - frankly - it *is* an issue that can be tackled via law and policy.

1  · 
x-jla

SP, I disagree. We should hold everyone to a higher standard, because everyone is capable of acting at a higher standard, and it’s beneficial to them and society to do so. Holding authority to a higher standard creates the greatest inequality of all- inequality of moral agency.

 · 
tduds

I mean, by definition holding everyone to a higher standard holds no one to a "higher" standard. If you want to pontificate about a perceived decline in overall civility, okay, but it's a weird thing to do in the same thread where you're insisting on concrete policy solutions from everyone else.

 · 
x-jla

I’m not insisting on anything. I’m saying that you can’t get furious when a single cop shoots someone and then remain silent, or provide excuses, when civilians do the same at a rate probably 100-1000 times higher. Sorry, but a cop in the south Bronx isn’t as laid back as one in Beverly Hills, for good reason. Would you be?

 · 
SneakyPete

I would never choose to be a police officer. It's bad enough the assumptions I get in Architecture due to the preponderance of bad apples.

 · 
tduds

"and then remain silent" ...big assumption there.

 · 
tduds

I don't talk about things that aren't relevant to police brutality in threads about police brutality. I talk about them elsewhere, where they're the topic of conversation. Conversely, bringing it up here, where it's not the point, is a whatboutism.

 · 
tduds

The existence of other problems - however real they may be - doesn't diminish the problem at hand, nor does it de-legitimize peoples' efforts to address either.

1  · 
SneakyPete

Some people must only do one thing at a time. Seems like it would be difficult with the amount of stuff to do between breaths.

 · 
x-jla

Tduds, crime has nothing to do with police brutality? If you work in an area with rampant crime, Where cops are being assaulted, shot at, etc, I’d assume the cops are going to be ptsd vigilant...it happens that most bad neighborhoods are poor neighborhoods, and because of the historical mistreatment of minorities, poverty is rampant among minorities. Chicken egg argument, but not as simple as “racist cops are hunting people down”. That’s an oversimplification, and the hyperbole makes the situation worse, not better.

 · 
SneakyPete

Who has the larger amount of the power to affect change in that dynamic?

 · 
randomised

Thanks tduds, so Trump has not been found guilty, noted ;-)

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Ain't this some shit.

I'm sure these are just some nice police men.

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

That "true racism" comment, boy if that ain't a Yo-Semite two step, I don't know what is...wow.

 · 
randomised

Those nice police men might have even been “white hispanic”...

 ·  1
tduds

'but not as simple as “racist cops are hunting people down”.' 

Good thing no one is making that argument then.

1  · 
tduds

Rando: "Not found guilty" is different from "found not guilty." FWIW

1  · 
randomised

True...and “not guilty” doesn’t mean innocent either.

1  · 
x-jla

Tduds, yes people are making that argument. The narrative implies that police killing of minorities is an epidemic, rather than a rare occurrence, while in fact the chance of being killed by a member of your own race is 99.999% more likely.

 ·  1
x-jla

I’ll post the statistics, but you’ll just say that math is racist, so...

 ·  1
x-jla

1000 People total killed nationally in a year....54% white, 23% black.....and Only 4% total were unarmed. That’s nationwide in an entire year. If b3, Tduds, and SP, were cops, and they had millions of police encounters....would their numbers be any better? 96% of those shootings were armed suspects. One unjustified killing is terrible, but it’s also impossible to create a system that is 100% perfect when we are dealing with humans. The media aka propaganda wings of the 2 parties....is driving this narrative and creating a false sense of panic. Your fear and anger is being carefully curated. The question is why?

 ·  2
x-jla

The dead: 45 percent white men; 23 percent black men; and 16 percent Hispanic men. Women have accounted for about 5 percent of those killed, and people in mental distress about 25 percent of all shootings.“———clearly police are sexist against men!

 ·  2
x-jla

I mean seriously why doesn’t that narrative hold up? Only 95% are men! Those cops are sexist! That’s the problem!

 ·  1
SneakyPete

x-jla, you have no understanding of statistics, and your use of them is like attempting surgery with a cudgel. The patient is dead, man. You killed it.

3  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Good lord, no wonder we have problems.

1  · 
square.

interesting that someone thinks they can dismiss the largest protest movement in us history based on the (poor) use of statistics, anonymously on the web, to add. what's the goal here?

1  · 
SneakyPete

Winning.

1  · 
x-jla

Truth seeking is the goal. I’m not dismissing anything. I’m simply stating that while this problem exists, The media and political class are exploiting, exaggerating the extent, and cherry picking for their own gains. What started as a grass roots movement has been hijacked, and the initial message and universal support has been diminished by the usual power junkies. Why is this so hard to see?

 · 
x-jla

Being that I have been railing against the growing police state for years, drug laws, stop and frisk, etc...I’m not defending the police by any means. I’m simply stating that this goes beyond race. Race is a component, but this goes beyond race. The state has been creeping towards authoritarians for many years. It also goes beyond parties. It’s like the WWF....fake good guys and bad guys fooling the audience and giggling in the locker room.

 · 
SneakyPete

So let's not start until we fix it? I don't follow. If there's a problem, you gotta start somewhere, and in this country race as a starting point to fixing a problem seems better than most.

 · 
tduds

"Tduds, yes people are making that argument." 

Please find an example of someone* making this argument. Not even going to acknowledge your other statements until you cite something.

*Someone with actual clout, not a twitter rando with 13 followers.

 · 
x-jla

Long story short, the problem isn’t racist cops, it’s the number of interactions human cops who may or may not be racist, incompetent, scared, etc have with the public. The problem is that we have too many frivolous laws. The answer is more liberty, not less. Decriminalize drugs, end loitering laws, focus on real crime like rape, murder, burglary....

 · 
x-jla

In effect, the outcome will be more just treatment of black people, but having that as a goal is playing into the identity politics bs. It’s through individual liberty that group liberty will be achieved. That’s the root of the disagreements I think. For example: end stop and frisk. That statement has no racial component, but its effect if ended will disproportionately benefit minorities because the policy disproportionately affects them negatively as it is applied. Make sense?

 · 
x-jla

The intense focus on racial identity is causing unnecessary division. A focus on expanding everyone’s liberties will create unity imo. Just the opinion of a gardener...but gardens are sort of like miniature societies...and they are usually best with minimal pruning and control...

 · 
x-jla

Tduds, and I don’t disagree with blm totally. lol. I disagree with some of their rhetoric. Do we have to agree with everything in its entirety always, or be cast as an opponent?

 · 
tduds

Still waiting on that citation, btw.

& while we're at it feel free to point out what sections, if any, of the document I linked that you disagree with. 

 · 
x-jla

I’m not looking for it. I’ve heard Shaun King, BLM leaders, athletes,

 · 
x-jla

Public figures say things to that effect. Many times.

 · 
tduds

"Many people are saying..." 

 · 
x-jla

“Dismantle the nuclear family”. Nope. “End stop and frisk”. Yes. See it’s easy. Politics isn’t a religion, for me anyway...

 · 
SneakyPete

My garden has a wooly aphid problem but I'm not going to do anything about it until the drainage problem, the deer problem, the broken greenhouse, the weeding, and the remulching are all able to be fixed, too. I guess those plants will just have to die because I refuse to focus on one issue because that's ... unfair?

1  · 
tduds

“Dismantle the nuclear family” Please cite where this is stated.

 · 
tduds

As best I can discern you agree with all the explicitly stated things that people have brought to your attention with citations, and disagree with all the vague things that "many people are saying"

Please prove me wrong if you can.

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Did Jlax just bring Talcum X into the conversation? Did he? Really? The man is a fucking grifter of all grifters.

1  · 
x-jla

On that we agree!

 · 
x-jla

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

 · 
SneakyPete

Don't forget fathers, otherwise you might upset the Dutch.

3  · 
x-jla

Tduds, I admit that I’m wrong on that one. I was going by the interpretation of others who were misreading/misinterpreting that statement. Its not bad...I think. And I’m a little ashamed of myself for dismissing it without reading it for myself, because I actually agree with the “it takes a village” idea...if that’s truly what they are getting at. I’ll look more into it.

1  · 
x-jla

SP, yes absent fathers are definitely the biggest issue. I think that’s probably where people took issue with the statement.

 · 
tduds

Yeah I also strongly support the "it takes a village" mentality.

1  · 
SneakyPete

Who else supported that and was ridiculed for it? I can't recall...

1  · 

Did tduds and jla just make progress? Was this a break through?

 · 
SneakyPete

SHUT UP EA.

 · 
x-jla

I’m not allergic to admitting when I’m wrong. I actually like being proven wrong, because on those rare occasions I learn something. lol

1  · 
SneakyPete

So that rash isn't new, then? ;)

 · 
tduds

EA - We do agree sometimes. As frustrating as I find jla's philosophies & world view I will give him credit for usually keeping the mud-slinging to the issues & not the individuals. I try to extend, at the very least, the same courtesy. I fail sometimes.

1  · 

Applause all around. I know it's not the first time, and jla is one who will admit when they fall short or could have done better (I try to as well). I recall an exchange jla and I had concerning environmentalism, climate change, teenagers, politicization of issues, outdoorsy sexy, and Teddy Roosevelt swagger where we seemed to arrive at a point of common ground. 

Cheers all, Have a good weekend.

3  · 
DTL.DWG

They should remove the heads at the executive branch (figuratively)

They should have an executive board and return back to the original method for electing President and Vice Presidents since we are now civil enough not to have duels anymore (I think).

Require an Executive Board to be made up of at least four (4) parties and then run some algorithm in which the dominating party is represented based on votes but you have to have at least four (4) parties....(granted in the US the smaller parties will eventually become arms of the larger ones, or maybe make parties declare certain ideologies in writing that counter other parties to be considered a party...that would get interesting as well).

In the meantime, let's have the two (2) oldest people running for president ever Tweet themselves into office.

Sep 2, 20 8:38 am  · 
 · 

I'd spend more time running your firm DWG and less time here. It would be more productive. ;)

 · 
tduds

I was with you for the first sentence & then you slowly lost me.

 · 
tduds

Generally, though, yea abolish the presidency.

 · 

I say we go back to the feudal system.

1  · 
SneakyPete

As opposed to the feuding system?

2  · 
tduds

good one.

 · 

I think we can have feuding feudalism.

 · 
SneakyPete

But can we have Family Feuding Feudalism?

 · 
tduds

What?

 · 
gwharton

Yeah. And it worked out so well that they stopped doing that retarded sh*t immediately.

 · 
DTL.DWG

what you mean gw, all those duels? Just get rid of the "Executive" being one person, make it more complicated, would make being a Journalist hard and simple peoples lives harder, they couldn't just point a finger and go "it's all the president's fault!" (because that's exactly how it works, one guy, doing all that work - how many people work in the government again?). tduds, you said I lost you either literally or were just expressing you only agreed with sentence one...btw, is this why people argue with bots? assumptions, tones, all this sh*ts missing.

 · 
gwharton

With the orginal "second place gets the consolation prize of Vice President", you get the very real possibility of having two personal and political enemies as President and Vice President, the latter with an actual legal incentive to destroy the former and take his place. That is a very bad situation for the political stability of the executive branch, as became very clear early on in our history, and is why the practice was quickly abandoned.

1  · 
square.

hamilton, bro

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

my favorite part of Judge Smails quote is this; "...doing that retarded sh*t immediately." it's the self awareness to edit shit, but not find a better word than "retarded". It's the essence of Trumpist thinking.

 · 
x-jla

“retarded” is not trumpist. It was part of the common cultural lingo up until recently when the pc police banned it. Not following the orders of the pc police isn’t trumpist, it’s anti elitist, which also happens to be the sentiment that trump somehow capitalized on...oddly he’s an elite too...but he presents himself as the class clown of the fancy lad boarding school...and the common folk like when he makes armpit farts during a lecture.

 ·  1
tduds

He didn't say the word itself was "Trumpist", but rather the hilarious swing-and-a-miss thought process of censoring the word that isn't offensive but leaving the one that is.

1  · 
DTL.DWG

yes, G, add two more and then the entire executive branch is a cage match, keep the ego centric fucks who run for the highest office in the land occupied while the rest of work....

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

This is the prime example of Trumpist thinking;


 · 
x-jla

Exposing the hypocrisy of the ruling class is trumpist?

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Think about your comment, critically, and come back with a position as though I wrote it, because the obviousness of this kind of idiocy, passing as "critique of the ruling class" is so full of shit.

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

More Trumpist pablum;


 · 
x-jla

It’s all spectacle bro. Politics is so boring, why do I waste my time posting about it? I don’t really spend much time thinking about it. I usually watch vids about space, physics, plants....I was thinking about that, and realized that it’s not the actual political shit that draws me in, but the spectacle of it all. It’s a weird evil form or performance art really...catching Pelosi on camera is a glimpse into

 · 
x-jla

*the behind the scenes shit...the reality behind the curtain...whats interesting is the Truman show like nature of it all...

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Nothing to see here;


 · 
randomised

And Biden is hiding in his basement...but that’s not the point. If Trump is such a bad president y’all should be thankful that he is on the golf course that often, can’t fuck up when you’re not around.

 · 
randomised

Well, how many innocent Black men has Harris put behind bars on Trumped-up charges? Pence zero! I know who I’d vote for...

 · 
DTL.DWG

as I'm an open minded dude, I watched something I would say is in the conspiracy world but crosses over into common sense (this is where it all gets muddled I guess) but was made by a Dutch person. A lot of it about the US's politics. I find this interesting because as an American whose actually educated enough to know there is more to Holland than legal weed (tolerated as I understand it) I could give two shits about Holland/Netherland's (whatever) politics. Out of curiosity why all this interest in US politics as a Dutchman?

 · 
randomised

Because it matters...

 · 
tduds

Image ..

Sep 2, 20 5:41 pm  · 
7  · 
DTL.DWG

was trying to find the ESPN documentary, but for some quick history here, which makes all this post all that more interesting...long time ago (maybe 60 +/- years) northern universities started recruiting what would have HBCU football stars to basically win games. eventually the south had to follow suit as the all white teams were not winning. so when it came to winning no one cared about race...let me see if I can find that documentary...

 · 
Koww

y'all ever notice... since Kamala Harris was selected to be the VP nominee, there hasn't been a word about her?

Sep 3, 20 7:28 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

About as much as you hear from Pence.

1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Nothing needs to be said, but everything's been said.

 · 
x-jla

She’s awful.

 · 
gwharton

They actually managed to find somebody with less personal charisma than Hillary. Amazing. But I thought she was dead. I distinctly remember watching Tulsi execute her in cold blood on national television.

2  ·  1

Still better than watching Trump or Pence flub their way through a speech.

1  · 
x-jla

Harris is equal or greater of a fascist than Pence.

1  · 
randomised

Chad, reading auto prompters is not that important in the grand scheme of things, is it? Obama gave great speeches but droned thousands of innocent civilians to their deaths, for instance...

1  · 
x-jla

It’s all about the facade random...we aren’t supposed to judge on the content of their character...

1  · 
x-jla

Americans are fools for clever packaging...

1  · 
square.

right rando, the dutch had great cheese but enslaved thousands of people, for instance...

2  · 
tduds

You must be reading the wrong publications. I've seen, heard, and read a ton about her in the past month.

1  · 
randomised

*the Dutch HAVE great cheese...But square why point to the past of the Netherlands when confronted with the ugly present truth of America today? What’s this cognitive dissonance? You guys really are not used to people telling it like it is, that America is not the greatest country in the world...Your education system must suck even harder than I already thought, I feel for you!

 ·  1
b3tadine[sutures]

"You guys really are not used to people telling it like it is..." - rando

1  · 
randomised

And you’re the living proof of that! QED

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

"And you’re the living proof of that!"(!)(!)


 · 
randomised

Critiquing American Imperialism, mass murder of innocent civilians by a Democrat president and the unjust incarceration of Black men by the Democratic running mate...b3ta: “hold my beer, the Dutch sit around in a circle at birthday parties” QED Qlown Erat Demonstrandum

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

"Critiquing American Imperialism"

Dutch War Crimes?


 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Ooopsy!

 · 
Non Sequitur

Air Jordan’s vs wood clogs? Pretty obvious which one is better, no? QED.

2  · 
randomised

b3ta we are talking about the here and now...Glad I’m not German, you would be posting pics of Auschwitz to deflect from Obama’s war crimes or Kamala’s imprisoning of Black men (I thought you were a BLM fanboy, yet you are supporting the candidate that supported bussing and a running mate that’s responsible for the mass incarceration of Black men) If you are indicative of the current political and intellectual discourse in America, it will be a Trump landslide in November, no doubt...

 · 
randomised

Non, wooden clogs are climate neutral renewable carbon sinks and made by local craftsmen, those Jordan’s are made by little child slaves in sweatshops, I know which one is better!

 · 
Non Sequitur

^have you tried dunking in clogs? Perhaps a moot point, but the little wood clog magnet on my fridge I bought in Amsterdam was likely made in a worse factory than a typical big brand shoe.

2  · 
randomised

Sure non, whatever you want to believe...

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Hoooray!

Welcome to the 21st Century!

1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

The Dutch are inclined to celebrate their so-called Golden Age while ignoring its grimmer aspects.

1  · 
randomised

American neurotic!

 · 
Non Sequitur

Black Pete is still super racist.

2  · 
randomised

And in (former) colonies they paint Saint Nic white, can’t just project North American traditions or experiences and recent racial history onto everything and everywhere, that’s exactly that fascist American imperialism which is causing so much harm all around the globe.

 · 
Non Sequitur

Still super racist. It’s just below wearing a klan robe.

 · 
randomised

They wear similar robes in Spain, called capirotes, has nothing to do with lynching Black people...again, can’t simply project American use of racial stereotypes and historical symbolism onto the rest of the world, it doesn’t work like that...

 · 
Non Sequitur

^yes we can. Your black pete is super racist and you SHOULD be ashamed of supporting it. But you're not able to see this.

 · 
randomised

I’m not supporting it...but you only need to look at the use of swastikas in Hinduism or Buddhism whatever and Nazi Germany to see you’re off here, context!

 · 
Non Sequitur

are they not ortho and spin in the opposite direction?

also, fuck context.  Moral relativism cares not for history or local "customs".

 · 
randomised

That Ameri-imperialist approach, that the American way is always the right way, is simply wrong...like “bringing democracy” or “liberating” unoccupied countries...I wouldn’t navigate on the American moral compass.

 · 
Non Sequitur

I'm not american. Black pete remains super racist and you should be ashamed to defend it.

1  · 
square.

it's called perspective rando. it's funny that you call out americans for not being able to take criticism, and then go on a defensive, endless rant when someone criticizes your county. my point was it's all in perspective- throughout history there's no such thing as a guilt free nation. i'm not defending america. we suck in a lot of ways, and i agree with a lot of your points. but, whereas america is the "lead culprit" now, the dutch were at one point. but history moves on. so stop whining and learn to take what you dish out.

2  · 
randomised

Non, I’m not defending Black Pete, but you as a Canadian defend the Ameri-imperialist way of doing things and their way of looking at the world. “You’re either with us or against us” that kind of binary black and white(!) way of seeing the world...

 · 
Non Sequitur

No, we're just more capable of self-criticism and pointing out problems others are oblivious to. Try to keep up, it's not that difficult.

2  · 
square.

i don't know how else to explain to rando this is literally their modus operandi..

2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

square, you're exactly correct. The Netherlands was America, before America, and it was Trumpist, before Trump. Hell, they've even exported the good stuff; legal weed! Thanks Orangé, funny, they were Orange before Trump...kkklasic.

 · 
x-jla

Yeah, but I thought Black Pete was supposed to be a Moor from Spain? The Moors were the imperial force in that region of southern Italy and Spain. The Barbary slave trade was a huge slave trade that preceded the Atlantic slave trade. I think the root of Black Pete is not coming from Dutch colonialism, but rather folklore regarding Moorish colonialism into Europe? Blackface in the US is totally different as it was used to oppress blacks. Not defending, just thought the history was different?

1  ·  1
b3tadine[sutures]

Let's leave what is "oppressive" and what isn't to people who are being depicted, because it isn't clear that Black Dutch are altogether happy with this depiction.

 · 
x-jla

Santa had black slaves? I thought he just enslaved midgets!

 ·  2
SneakyPete

Elves are not real and that is an offensive term. But you know that and are simply trolling, albeit poorly.

1  · 

Little people can be black. Fucking racist.

1  · 
x-jla

“Elves aren’t real” that’s racist against Icelandic people

 · 
SneakyPete

I am unwilling to entertain your sophomoric jokes when you blend them with offensive spew.

1  · 
x-jla

Just saying, you offended half of Iceland right there.

 ·  1
SneakyPete

Just saying go away or shut the fuck up, your choice.

1  · 
randomised

Square, I’m not going on a defensive, I’m just explaining to the uninformed here that the American point of view is not always the right point of view, it hardly is when it comes to foreign politics…what you think is racist, might not be racist at all, simply because the context is different, the origin is different, the experience is different, etc. I’m not whining, I just find it typical when mentioning the American imperialism and mass murder of today, the cognitive dissonance-reflex is to create such a transparent diversion tactic to move the discussion away from racists such as Biden, mass murderers such as Obama and incarcerators of predominantly Black men such as Harris. There is nothing in your response that I need “to take”, simply because you’ve missed the mark. 

And for b3ta, here an interview with a friendly left-wing historian about the true origin of the Black Pete tradition: 


 ·  1
b3tadine[sutures]

Remarkable! A WHITE Dutch historian says it ain't so...let's wrap it up guys!

Except, in every representation of Black Pete - in the ones specifically show in this idiotic piece - Black Pete, is African. EXCEPT, when the character hits the 20th Century, Pete takes on a striking resemblance to Sambo figures, and lawn jockeys.

You're a fucking dope.

 · 
SneakyPete

You find a lot of American Archinecters suggesting "that the American point of view is ... always the right point of view," rando?

2  · 
x-jla

B3, did you watch the video? The guy clearly understands the history of this fable. Unless you counter with an alternative historical narrative, rather than one based on feelings, I don’t see the argument.

 ·  1
b3tadine[sutures]

Yes, numbnuts, I watched; did you? All of it is buuuulllshit. His analysis, bullshit. The images he uses either contradict him, or are completely lacking in cultural, sociological intelligence, gross exaggerations, gross generalizations, or downright mis-readings.

https://hadithi.africa/2019/09/30/whats-behind-the-tribal-makeup/#:~:text=The%20Xhosa%20tribe%20of%20South,as%20a%20rite%20of%20passage.&text=Among%20the%20Pondo%20people%20of,between%20them%20and%20their%20ancestors.

The Xhosa tribe of South Africa uses face paint as a rite of passage. Boys entering adolescence undergo a ritual in which they’re separated from the rest of their tribe and embrace the mentorship of an older man. Once the ritual is over, they’re painted red. Among the Pondo people of South Africa, spiritual leaders paint their faces and bodies white because this establishes a mystical connection between them and their ancestors.

 · 
x-jla

I’m not offended by the Xhosa though, and if I where, it wouldn’t equate to the Xhosa being offensive or racist, it would mean that I’m being ignorant and misinformed.

 ·  2
randomised

Sorry b3ta that accurate historical facts and proper context are bullshit in your narrow mind, my job is done here :-) your classic racist trope that the guy somehow has his facts wrong because he is white, classic racist b3ta! Never change dude...

 ·  2
b3tadine[sutures]

huilen


 · 
randomised

Forgot the swastikas and the stiff right arm...lost your touch?

2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

This isn't about you in any way...


 · 
Non Sequitur

...and not even one reference to Urban Dance Squad. You’re loosing your touch Rando.

2  · 
square.

"i'm not on the defensive, BUT [insert rambling, incoherent paragraph attempting to justify, deflect and excuse]."

2  · 
randomised

To explain and bring in the facts is not defensive, I’m just helping you out to see it from the right angle...and not your usual American Imperialist Bush-like tunnel vision. I’m providing you with a service and opportunity to learn something new, you’re welcome!

 ·  2
randomised

The fact you even bring up UDS means my work on that front already paid off!

 · 
Non Sequitur

Not really rando... I still had to google them to make sure I typed their name correctly.

1  · 
SneakyPete

Your worldview has more in common with "American Imperialist Bush-like tunnel vision" than it does with anyone arguing with you. But you know that and you're being disingenuous as usual.

3  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

SP, it's fun watching his self-own, his racist shit-posting is just;


 · 
randomised

But you googled them! Great progress Non! That you had to google how to spell urban, dance and squad is a bit disappointing though...

 · 
randomised

SP, just indicate where my worldview is American-Imperialistish...I just happen to have more knowledge about (a) certain topic(s) than the lot of you combined...that is all, I don’t really care if you’re with me or against me, just happily filling the gaps of your collective knowledge, use it or lose it...up to you.

And for you b3ta, it would be nice if you could, you know, maybe indicate what I actually said that was so racist, because so far in our little discussion(s) it is you being the racist, don’t you have some pro-boning to do? Some helpless non-white women to bother with your mad skills, all for “free” obviously, and to then humble brag their names all over the place like you’re some Motherfucking Theresa?

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

^^"Some helpless non-white women to bother with your mad skills, all for “free” obviously, and to then humble brag their names all over the place like you’re some Motherfucking Theresa?"


 · 
randomised

Nice drawing b3theresa, great colour palette!

 · 
x-jla

The Pelosi hair salon scandal is my favorite thing this week.  

Sep 4, 20 11:14 am  · 
1  · 
randomised

We just had the Minister of Justice and Security actually crying in parliament over leaked photos of his wedding where social distancing was totally absent and hands were shaken etc., just a few weeks earlier the hypocrite named people not obeying the COVID measures as selfish “antisocials”...comedians couldn’t even come up with this stuff.

3  · 
citizen

I've heard that as long as there's no tonguing, we should be fine. Has that changed?

 · 
SneakyPete

One person being an idiot proves EVERYTHING, but an entire fucking group being idiots proves NOTHING.

1  · 
x-jla

One person aka The Queen B of the dem party.

 · 
SneakyPete

Queen Bee? Get the entire fuck out of here. Dems like or dislike her as they see fit, and they can find enough diversity of thought and opinion within their party to avoid being jettisoned for not wearing a specific fucking hat. I used to think you were misguided. You're not. You're actively, pervasively, consistently, and above all WILLFULLY stupid.

2  · 
x-jla

The party has been lecturing Americans that businesses need to remain closed, people have lost life savings, businesses that they worked hard for, in CA peolle have been arrested and fined for opening barber shops, etc, and she breaks the rules to get a haircut w/o even wearing a mask. She represents the party. She signed up for the job. She deserves the criticism. She exemplifies the hypocrisy that will cost them the election in nov. trump is a cunt, but he doesn’t pretend not to be. The Dems are all about facade...and the people eat it up because it reinforces their false sense of virtue.

 · 
SneakyPete

The party has been lecturing Americans that businesses are more important than people, people have lost everything, THEIR FUCKING LIVES, in THE ENTIRE COUNTRY peolle (SIC) have DIED, and he talks about Covid being not a big deal FOR MONTHS w/o even wearing a mask. He represents the party. He signed up for the job. He deserves the criticism. He exemplifies the hypocrisy that should cost them the election in nov. trump is a cunt, but he doesn’t pretend not to be. The Repubs are all about facade...and the people eat it up because it reinforces their false sense of superiority.

1  · 
SneakyPete

You don't even make it DIFFICULT.

1  · 
x-jla

THE REPUBS AND DEMS BOTH SUCK EQUALLY. FAR RIGHT AND FAR LEFT IDEOLOGIES ARE FOR MORONS. THE MEDIA IS PLAYING US ALL. BOTH PARTIES EXPLOIT RACIAL ISSUES. THE MEDIA IS NOTHING BUT A PROPAGANDA MACHINE. PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING OVER WHICH SHITBAG SMELLS WORSE.

 ·  3
curtkram

jla, no

3  · 
SneakyPete

Yeah. It's the media. Big, bad Boogeyman.

 · 
x-jla

More hypocrisy

 · 
SneakyPete

Holy shit; politicians can be hypocrites?! That's it, you've done it. We can go home. Game's over folk. Thanks to the selective news reading of one fucking idiot everything is clear.

1  · 
SneakyPete

You should go read the Epoch Times, very much your speed.

1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Lax, why do you hate the police, and the judges?

 · 
x-jla

just showing that the political elite are ALL full of shit. This idea that one party is good, and one is bad is so lame. Tribalism is so lame. Exposing the tribal “leaders” sheds light on how lame it is. Unity of the people requires that “we” all wake up from the tribal rally cry of the media and political elite and hate all politicians equally like we used to!

 · 
x-jla

These are the same people saying that people are selfish and irresponsible for wanting to open up their gyms...while having open gyms! Are you kidding me? This isn’t news worthy?

 ·  1
b3tadine[sutures]

"The gyms that have been open for government employees include those for police officers, judges, lawyers, bailiffs, and paralegals, according to the report. One such gym, the Hall of Justice gym, has been open since July 1."

Jlax why do you hate civil servants?

 · 
SneakyPete

You know who's full of shit, jla? You. You are full of shit. You have always been full of shit and you will probably, based on your inability to learn anything at all, always be full of shit. I pity any client who hires you expecting critical thinking, because you have proven yourself utterly incapable of it.

 · 
x-jla

B3, I don’t hate civil servants. SP, my critical thinking skills are the best.

 · 
x-jla

B3, if gyms are dangerous why would you want civil servants using them? If they are not dangerous then why would you want gym owners to suffer?

 · 
SneakyPete

Be still now I am with you I am deep within you You are at peace You cannot be harmed You will not suffer Breathe deeply Breathe in the healing love of the universe And breathe out the sickness which has taken you I am with you

 · 
x-jla

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/were-shutting-party-down-rochester-protesters-take-over-restaurants-third-night-protests-1529872%3famp=1


So peaceful...why tf do people give in and leave?  only one way to deal with bullies.  

Sep 5, 20 4:16 pm  · 
 ·  1
x-jla

Large crowds/mobs and power trips. Problem there. Keep eating the meals people, or this will just continue to be used to bully.

 ·  2
DTL.DWG

middle class white kids with teenage angst...living in that area (driving, etc...) I can tell you, these are all one-off highlights for the press.

 · 
SneakyPete

POST PITTSBURGH NOW GUYS! THERE'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE TO PROVE YOUR OVERWHELMING OPINION!

1  · 
DTL.DWG

not a real city, even Frank Lloyd Wright wrote that! (architecture)

 ·  1
SneakyPete

Pittburgh's one of the nicest towns in the Midwest (it isn't in the Midwest, but don't tell most Americans that). Architecture included.

1  · 
x-jla

You mean the fiery but peaceful protests?

 · 
SneakyPete

Mister ORIGINAL THOUGHTS ARE MY JAM regurgitating the talking points of FOX NEWS. Come get your ORIGINAL THINKING, folks. RIGHT HERE.

1  · 
DTL.DWG

I like the fact someone's beer was drunk or is it drank? (pittsburgh) this is all very localized and I ain't driving 6 hours to point that out. these events are good talking points - left or right for the media. I was within 5 minutes of the first paining of the NYC BLM painting, no crowd, cops pretty much just chilling (btw there are cops at that building 24/7 year round) in other words when I got home and watched the news, it was clearly hyperbole...also was a day after the one even they were throwing stuff at cop cars, same neighborhood with 12 hours, you'd never know...but keep running those clips over and over and over and you wonder why this country has so many prejudices. I've met people from NJ who are still afraid to walk in certain NYC neighborhoods, like across the water, how does such thinking develop? who causes it?

 · 
DTL.DWG

If I were to base this election simply on lawn signs, flags, stickers, t-shirts, in the Northeast from Philly to NYC and north, over to CT,  Trump has this election hands down.  I saw one Biden/Harris T-shirt and a barely legible Joe Biden 2020 flag (he needs to work on his graphic design, the Trump ones are obvious).  Like literally blocks of suburban homes with Lawn and Flags for Trump.  My favorite to date, you can guess the person, subtitle - "Fuck your Feelings"...yes, when talking about politics please do not get emotional (it's not worth it). 

Lastly, I don't care who wins as long as the tariffs are strong on China, I've seen this in action making jobs come by to the USA, the tariff  on one job for cabinets made the wall street guy order local, well not NYC (that was still to much) but had to abandon the China order for someone in the midwest.  Nothing emotional here, just monetary, so if whoever wins can continue this, all for it.   Could care less what they think about "ethics".  Morals shouldn't be anything the government has an opinion on, that's my opinon.



Sep 6, 20 10:30 am  · 
1  · 
x-jla

Trump will win by a landslide. The Dems used the same exact formula they used in 2016...if a vaccine is released before Nov he will win by an even greater landslide. I will place my bets that if that happens the Dems will suddenly become the anti-vax party by saying it was rushed for political gains. Americans hate hypocrisy. Trump is an asshole on the surface and behind the curtain. That’s not good, but it’s better than the hypocrisy for most people who just don’t want to be bothered by these clowns.

 · 
DTL.DWG

I'm just basing this on lawn and front porch "flare", maybe Biden peeps are more low-key

Office Space Joanna Flair Jennifer Aniston GIF by Danno | Gfycat

5  · 
bowling_ball

"Morals shouldn't be anything the government has an opinion on, that's my opinon." That's the stupidest thing I've read all day. I get it - legalize drugs and prostitution, etc... but that doesn't give any government carte blanche to commit war crimes, for example. Ethics need to be considered in all decisions more complicated than math problems.

1  · 
DTL.DWG

bowling_ball - what you quote was meant in the sense of "telling you how to live". War on the other hand, well now you're talking structure and systems, economy, standards of living, "freedom" depending who you talk to, etc...and its too complicated for any one human to have more than an opinion on it, moreover to even make a statement on it, hence all that yelling above by two dutch people (well one I gather is of dutch decent). Anyone can be against war, that's the easy part "ethically", but as I note to complicated to address or even bother addressing here...Now put that on some lawn "flare".

 · 
SneakyPete

Pretty sure it's 'flair', my dude.

 · 
citizen

Love that lawn and front porch flare.  What could go wrong?


2  · 
SneakyPete

Wonder what gender the tablecloth will be.

2  · 
x-jla

Guess, you have a 50/50 chance.

 · 
SneakyPete

More like a 100% chance of burning down the fucking neighborhood. And you still won't get the gender right. 

2  ·  1
DTL.DWG

bruh - let's go with lawn "flare" and then make meme's, since you may know what movie I'm rolling with here, a Mike Judge classic....

what party is this guy (meme)

Office Space' Got Rid Of TGIF Flair - Business Insider

and what party is this lady (meme)

Office Space facts: Office Space 20th anniversary | EW.com

Richard Dawkins on the internet's hijacking of the word 'meme'  (in case you're into being educated about stuff)


1  · 
citizen

One of the best movies there is. I've posted a meme (sorry!) or two from this cinema classic here over the years. Jennifer Aniston is a wonderful surprise in it.

1  · 
Non Sequitur

^ I doubt many know the origins of the term. I came across it some 12-15ish years ago when I first started reading Dawkings.

 · 
DTL.DWG

yeah, I thought Aniston did real well in this one, but this dude was many of my studio mates in undergrad's hero, with one of the best lines ever -

and damn you NS for being so damn educate!


 · 
citizen

Even if it wasn't packed full of great scenes, this alone is worth the 90-minute run time:

Reaction gif tagged with stare, David Herman, Office Space

 · 
x-jla

Conservatives love flair. The Nazis liked flair too. That’s kind of scary. Flair scares me more than anything. It’s indicative of a full adoption of tribalism. The blm flair is now starting to emerge too. The trump flair is definitely more widespread. Conservatives in general are more likely to flair their trucks with bumper stickers and shit like that.

 · 
x-jla

Also really really hate team flair. Those dummies that dress like their favorite teams and fight over which team is better after a game that just proved which team was better...

 · 
DTL.DWG

for Bowling_Ball (history repeats over and over in many versions)

 6:00 - right to vote argument to change things, average but involved citizen

10:00 +/- probably most architects after a liberal arts education

14:00 +/- letting the man speak even if you don't agree

18:18 - more like someone on this website  ;)

20:45 - government and the mob, let's get some theories going...conspiracy theories are always good

32:00 +/-  most of 'merica's opinion on middle to upper class college kids with opinions demostrating 

34:00 + its complicated! and the dude calls some of the best film people ever childish...yes it's complicated.

36:30 - counter revolution, this was 1970, the end of the 1968 riots and movements (so to speak), the 1970 hard hat riot was the "silent majority" reacting...guess where we are at now in 2020 or close...

38:00 +/-  media likes the kids

NYU film students: Martin Scorsese, Oliver Stone, Harvey Keitel, and Helma Schoonmaker

enjoy ;)


Sep 8, 20 9:35 pm  · 
 · 

Really inspiring political discussion going on here. One side is bad because there are hypocrites among their ranks. The other side is bad because they like flair and so did the Nazis. But that is only when we can stop arguing over what the Dutch did/do and whether they get to hold the high ground on being all tolerant and anti-racist. 

54 days until Nov 3rd and this is what we're talking about. Trump is exactly the president we deserve.

Sep 9, 20 11:39 am  · 
3  · 
SneakyPete

I don't agree with your final sentence.

 · 

I don't like it either, but I'm not seeing convincing evidence to the contrary. I'll happily be proved wrong on Jan 20th.

 · 
SneakyPete

We includes you when you say it and me when I say it. I don't deserve this fucking gas bag and neither do you.

 · 
x-jla

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/05/kamala-harris-covid-vaccine-safety-trump-election


Antivaxer!  I distinctly remember a similar discussion on here recently...

Sep 9, 20 11:39 am  · 
1  ·  1

Take things out of context much? How's Trump's record on hydroxychloroquine?

1  · 
gwharton

Trump's record on HCQ was better than the haters' was, as it turns out.

 ·  1
SneakyPete

"the haters"

1  · 
x-jla

How’s the Dems record on Hydrocychloroquine?

1  ·  1
Non Sequitur

"“I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he’s talking about. I will not take his word for it.” 

Says it right there in the article. 

It's not "anti-vax", it's "trump is not a reliable expert (in anything) so his word on the success of the vaccine better be backed by credible, impartial and objective research before I take his statement seriously."

edit.

2  · 

"Trump's record on HCQ was better than the haters' was, as it turns out."

Is that why the FDA pulled the EUA for it?

 · 
x-jla

Medicine should not be politicized obviously, but both parties are doing this with corona. I literally said that I wouldn’t trust a vaccine that was rushed, and I was called an antivaxer, so does same apply the Kamala?

1  · 
Non Sequitur

rushed is not the same thing as expressing lack of confidence in your potus. "Rushed" is subjective and speaks more to your misunderstanding of the process and efforts currently in place. There is a difference.

3  · 
tduds

She didn't say she wouldn't trust the vaccine. She said she wouldn't trust Trump's word. They're not the same, stop pretending like they are. Fuck your both sidesism.

3  ·  1
tduds

Excuse my profanity but my county is on fire and right-wing dumbfucks are parading around my town. The gloves are off until November. Prepare to have your shit called.

3  ·  2
gwharton

As scientific results continue to roll in, it is becoming clear that the early rejection of HCQ as a therapeutic treatment, based on the (fraudulent and later retracted) Lancet study, has cost many lives. There is strong evidence now to suggest that early treatment using a combination of HCQ in conjunction with Azithromycin and Zinc supplementation reduces hospitalization and mortality rates from SARS-CoV2 infection by at least an order of magnitude. There are similar results for using Ivermectin in conjunction with AZM and Zinc supplementation as well. Also, vitamin D3 deficiency is strongly correlated with more extreme morbidity and higher hospitalization rates from COVID-19, so make sure you take your Vitamin D pills, kids.

1  · 

Maybe you're right gwharton, Trump seems to be doing just fine ... and I totally believe that he was taking it.

BTW, we've talked about how it would help your argument to cite sources. So whenever you're ready...

1  · 
x-jla

Her facial expressions are hilarious lol.

1  · 
x-jla

I’ve been taking my Vitamin D3 errday

1  · 
SneakyPete

You know what kills coronavirus? Bleach. Have at it, dipshits.

 · 
gwharton

Most of the rest of the world is not hyper-ventilating over HCQ because it's a US political shibboleth promoted by TDS sufferers. As an example, France deregulated of HCQ on July 11th, allowing over-the-counter sale starting on that date. There is typically a lag of around 11-12 days from infection rates for SARS-CoV2 and correlated hospitalization and fatality rates as the disease progresses. Prior to HCQ going OTC in France, they had a stable case fatality rate (CFR) of about 3.4%. In the following month, the CFR in France dropped to 0.94% (a reduction of 72.3%, which is huge). France also began suffering a second wave of infection in mid-August, with more infections than in their first wave. However, where 27,777 people died from COVID-19 in the first wave, only 384 have died in the second wave to date, and hospitalizations are way, way down. This pattern recurs all over the world, and shows a clear correlation between early therapeutic use of HCQ+AZM+Z and dramatically reduced morbidity from COVID-19. But no. A bunch of American political hacks want you to think it's bad because Trump once said some encouraging things about it based on preliminary intelligence he was getting in his Presidential briefings. Maybe what we really need is a vaccine for Trump Derangement Syndrome, since TDS is now verifiably costing American lives.

1  ·  1
SneakyPete

I write words with things that sound like facts but refuse to provide evidence. That way I sound smart.

 ·  1
SneakyPete

TDS is the derangement you need to suffer to think that the HYDROCHLOROQUINE would have saved more lives than Trump's ACTUAL DECISIONS caused to be lost by his inability to put himself and his own sense of self-importance aside for a SINGLE SECOND in order to do the right thing.

 ·  1
x-jla

“Excuse my profanity but my county is on fire and right-wing dumbfucks are parading around my town.” Uhhhhhhh? Like did you sleep though the fact that the left-wing dumbfucks lit the country on fire? I’m in agreement that all are dumb, but after months of riots, arson, etc you are complaining when the “other-side” protests? I wonder how many stores will be looted by the the right wingers before the left calls in the national guard?...how many “isolate incidents” of old people being punched in the face? How many people harassed in their homes? your idea that the right is dangerous and the
left is Not is completely devoid of reality.

1  ·  1
x-jla

All mobs are dangerous! All tribalism is bad! Identity politics feeds tribalism, and it’s exactly this reason I called it out as a dangerous practice that is not in line with “liberal” values.

 ·  1
SneakyPete

Oh cool, another xlax ghwarton circle jerk of stupidity and arrogant ignorance.

 ·  1
gwharton

Why do you hate SCIENCE!, Pete?

 · 
SneakyPete

x-jla, if you want to be taken seriously, take a week break from attacking the left and spend it attacking the right. You wouldn't last a day.

 · 
SneakyPete

POST THE SCIENCE WITH LINKS. YOU ARE NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT BULLSHIT.

 ·  1
gwharton

HCQ+D3 very effective at treating even severe COVID-19 cases: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076020302764
similar results here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.08.20095893v1

Here's the French data Plotted against time and HCQ OTC availability:



Apologize now or STFU.

 ·  1
x-jla

But that wouldn’t irritate you guys! That’s no fun :( I’m on a family Text thread...And my wife’s aunt is a huge trump supporter...so I paid my 17yo son 20$ to write Soros2020 and to post pics of Mao. She thinks he’s a communist now, and is constantly attempting an intervention. When he asked why I don’t just do it, I said that I was too mature.

 · 
tduds

Left wing dumbfucks did not light the country on fire. Historically dry conditions and a once-in-a-generation wind storm lit the country on fire. Decades of ignoring obvious signs of climate change lit the country on fire. 

2  · 
x-jla

I’m a political atheist...so why trash Jesus in a Mosque...

 · 
Non Sequitur

^and badly timed hipster gender reveal parties too... aparently.

 · 
SneakyPete

Are you suggesting that two studies should have directed the entire Country's efforts to combat the Virus? I'm still not seeing any evidence for the other bulllshit you presented as fact.

 ·  1
tduds

Just gave out my first thumbs down. What a callous, arrogant, insensitive thing to say. People in my county are dying. Entire towns in Oregon are *gone* overnight. We're on evacuation alert. I haven't slept well in two days, and all you can think of is how this karmically relates to a few trashcan fires in downtown Portland? Go fuck yourself.

1  · 
SneakyPete

"But that wouldn’t irritate you guys! That’s no fun :( I’m on a family Text thread...And my wife’s aunt is a huge trump supporter...so I paid my 17yo son 20$ to write Soros2020 and to post pics of Mao. She thinks he’s a communist now, and is constantly attempting an intervention. When he asked why I don’t just do it, I said that I was too mature."


So you're not just a fucking asshole to strangers on the internet, you're also a shitty person to your own family. I am not surprised.

1  · 
gwharton

HCQ use in Spanish nursing homes has dramatically reduced COVID-19 severity: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-70219/v2

 · 
SneakyPete

Non Seq, gender reveal parties are more a thing done by middle americans who huff trends directly from their social media feed than they are hipster.

 · 
tduds

Please keep this on topic - Not trusting Trump is not the same as being anti-vaccine.

1  · 
SneakyPete

But you can buy bleach at the store, gwharton.

 · 
Non Sequitur
x-jla

Tduds, are you kidding? Trash can fires? 3 people were shot and killed in the chop zone alone, including a 14yo. Many people have been assaulted, many businesses have been burned down and looted. Cops have been shot. A black conservative reporter was Stabbed by an antifa member. Do you want me to find the insurance claim reports for each state? The damages are unprecedented. On top of that, the crime rates are soaring in NYC and elsewhere, which is at least partly due to the anti police sentiment and the overall acceptance of lawless behavior by political leaders and progressive DA’s

 · 
x-jla

Tduds, I didn’t know you were talking about the actual wild fires. Thought you were referring to the overall political climate.

 · 
x-jla

My bad.

1  · 
x-jla

“Excuse my profanity but my county is on fire and right-wing dumbfucks are parading around my town. The gloves are off until November. Prepare to have your shit called.“. Based on your wording, it sounded more about the protests than the wild fires. I too live in an area where we get wild fires. That’s not a joke man. Be safe and hopefully they are able to contain them:(

 · 
gwharton

Meta-study research review shows HCQ is still being more intensively studied for SARS-CoV2 treatment and prophylaxis than almost any other compound, despite strong political pressure in the USA: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.30.20117937v1

 · 
gwharton

More current studies showing strong therapeutic results with HCQ: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221371652030206X 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.18.20172874v

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092485792030342

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095362052030335

https://c19study.com/catteau.htm

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.20.20178772v

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092485792030248

And here’s an aperitif about Vitamin D and SARS-CoV2

https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/febs.15495

I can keep doing this all day. There are hundreds and hundreds of these studies in the scientific literature. But you go ahead and keep linking “Snopes” and partisan media as authoritative. Maybe it will help alleviate your cognitive dissonance symptoms.

1  · 
SneakyPete

"Maybe it will help alleviate your cognitive dissonance symptoms."

*laughing*

1  · 
x-jla

“Please keep this on topic - Not trusting Trump is not the same as being anti-vaccine“ -Tduds. Yes, and Not trusting Democrats is not the same as being anti-vaccine either. Unfortunately, everything is now political, so something like a vaccine development process is
potentially subject to political tampering. I blame the conservatives politicizing the vegetable garden (happy SP?).

 · 
SneakyPete

Happy that you, as usual, trot out one example to pretend to be a free-thinker after spending literal days arguing right wing talking points? You know the answer to that, you're just trolling. You really need to do better, trolling works best when people can't tell you're doing it.

 · 
x-jla

Climate change denial (happy SP?)

 · 
x-jla

Problem is that politics has imbedded itself into everything. Science and politics DO NOT MIX. There is litterally a thing called the scientific process...and last I checked it doesn’t involve a green check from snoops, or a thumbs up from trump.

 · 
SneakyPete

"take a week break from attacking the left and spend it attacking the right" 

I'll add "only." This should be easy for you, as you have protested many, many times that you see just as much bad from the right. I'm asking that you limit yourself to negative statements about the right for a week. If they're as bad as the left, as you claim, it should be easy.

 · 

For the record, I stopped looking at the scientific papers gwharton was posting after the first three didn't support his claims. Here are some excerpts for those who want to play along. 

From the first link he claims shows "HCQ+D3 very effective at treating even severe COVID-19 cases" ... all patients received the HCQ treatment so there really wasn't a control for HCQ in the study. Rather it was focused on Calcifediol. Further, the authors note that while treatment with HCQ was the best available treatment at the time, it is no longer considered effective in treatment of COVID-19. "The best available treatment that at the beginning of the outbreak in our hospital, included the use of hydroxychloroquine/azithromycin therapy [23,24,26]. However, taking into consideration more recent data on the safety and efficacy of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine in small randomized clinical trials, case series, and observational studies this treatment is no longer considered effective [32] in treating COVID-19.

The second link that apparently supported the first, didn't mention HCQ at all and was instead looking at Vitamin D. 

The third link about using HCQ in Spanish nursing homes ... again, all patients received HCQ and azithromycin for the first five days so there was no control group that didn't receive it. They also specifically call out that there is contradictory results from the treatment, "It is worth highlighting that the multivariate logistic regression analysis identified hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin treatment as an independent factor favoring survival compared with no treatment or other treatments. At present, contradictory results have been published regarding the effectiveness of this treatment in COVID-19 infected patients and the associated risk of adverse events using those medications [30-34]."

If you want to convince anyone, you're going to have to try harder.

3  · 
x-jla

I don’t have time to read them all, but i don’t want my docs hands tied by political bs if I need help. Hydroxy has been around for a long time. Doctors know how to use it. Vitamin D is known to help immune system and to regulate cytokine, and it’s good for you generally and cheap, so just take it and cross fingers that it helps covid too. I don’t see the problem.

 ·  1
x-jla

Especially people with darker complexions living in northern climates. Most black Americans, especially in the northeast, are deficient.

 · 
x-jla

“I'll add "only." This should be easy for you, as you have protested many, many times that you see just as much bad from the right. I'm asking that you limit yourself to negative statements about the right for a week. If they're as bad as the left, as you claim, it should be easy.“ - I see an equal degree of bad in the tribalism, but not the policies. Leftist policies are worse. Tribalism is bad regardless of the ideology, because once the flair comes out, the ideology is moot and it’s all about power and winning.

 · 
x-jla

*leftist policies and conservative policies are worse than classically liberal / libertarian policies should say...

 · 
x-jla

Usually

 · 
BabbleBeautiful

maybe gwharton's reading comprehension skills are just wack

1  · 
SneakyPete

So I have reset the clock to now, let me know if you're up for the challenge or are just going to continue being a right wing bobblehead with delusions of fair play.

1  · 

I'll reserve judgement on that because I haven't read everything he linked to. I'm simply indicating that the first ones (logically the ones he thought most informative to support his statements) didn't offer much support ... so I stopped reading. As jla implied with his response, I'd rather leave it up to the medical professionals. For my part, I'd rather trust the federal government, especially the President, to give good, accurate, unbiased information that is in the best interest of the country and not their own special or political interests ... but I can't do that based on their record so far. Apparently neither can Kamala Harris.

2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Except there's recent evidence of a Bradykinin Storm, and not a Cytokine Storm. Whatever the fuck that is, I'm just an architect. I read a piece of a report today that stated, it was the overwhelming amount of anecdotal reports, the lack of credible, controlled studies, that is leading to the stupid around Hydroxy...

 · 
randomised

Should rename the thread Corona Central

 · 
tduds

Image may contain: text that says 'Alissa Azar @R3volutionDaddy Y'all kept saying Portland was on fire until it actually happened huh 1:52 PM Sep 8, 2020 Twitter for iPhone 80 Retweets 7 Quote Tweets 561 Likes'.

Sep 9, 20 12:24 pm  · 
2  · 
randomised

tduds, be sure to wash your hands regularly now that you took your gloves off, and don’t touch your face!

 ·  3
randomised

Geez Louise, I was just kidding because tduds took his gloves off in the middle of a pandemic...lighten up b3tasneak!

 · 
SneakyPete

hilarious

 · 
randomised

Thought so too!

 · 
tduds

Checking out for a while. This thread clearly is not good for my stress this week.

Sep 9, 20 1:03 pm  · 
4  · 
SneakyPete

Yep.

 · 
citizen

Concur, tduds. I'd just substitute "year" for "week."

 · 

Hot takes on the Bob Woodward book? Go!

Sep 10, 20 1:59 am  · 
1  · 
randomised

And now for some positive news, Trump got nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to bring peace to the Middle East! Hope it will work, his track record is better than his predecessors:


Sep 10, 20 4:52 am  · 
 ·  3
randomised

Sorry for the triple post! It first didn’t show up twice so put it in TC, thought I lost posting privileges here or something. But later it showed a 502 Bad Gateway, I don’t know. It wasn’t my intention to, mods can kill these two in PC if they want.

 · 
randomised

And now for some positive news, Trump got nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to bring peace to the Middle East. Hope it will work out, for now his track record is much better than his predecessors: 


Sep 10, 20 4:55 am  · 
 ·  3
b3tadine[sutures]

I'll fix this for you

1  · 
Non Sequitur

Never heard of opp infinite reach before but if I had to guess, I would have guess it was Bill's.

 · 
randomised

That was around the time Clinton lied in his Grand Jury testimony, I’m sure the timing was coincidental ;-)

 · 
BabbleBeautiful

Problems with the title & content of the poster aside, since when does not starting a war = nobel peace prize?

 · 
square.

you really have nothing better to do with your time than troll american architects on an american architecture website about american politics? looks like a fetish at this point.

1  · 
randomised

Babble, Trump is nominated for his work in the Middle East, bringing the UAE and Israel closer together...don’t you follow any news? But about the image, just a nice image to show his clean slate, it does not relate literally to his Nobel nomination, too much time on the golf course to be starting any wars probably!

 · 
square.

"no square, i am simply trying to.. dumb americans.. imperialism.. mcdonalds... obama.... world order.... illuminati........"

 · 
BabbleBeautiful

rando: I'm fully abreast the news and my question still stands as I don't see "brining the UAE and Isreal closer together" as a qualifier.

Lastly, I'd like to nominate you for the Darwin Award.

1  · 
randomised

What question still stands Babble? And you clearly don’t know what the Darwin Award is as I’m still alive and well. That picture is just a nice reminder of the peaceful nature of the current presidency, not following the orders of the Military Industrial Complex and such, does not directly relate to his nomination, but shows character.

 · 
randomised

square, or you could simply read what I wrote...you’re clearly out of your depth and grasping at straws here. Make a coffee and try again, I’m not going anywhere.

 · 
square.

repeating the word "clearly" doesn't make your "argument" understandable.

 · 
BabbleBeautiful

I consider you and your arguments dead, rando.

 · 
randomised

Sorry for your loss!

1  · 
randomised

Square, “clearly” not! Sorry, that you’re unable to understand what I am trying to say. What is it you don’t understand, perhaps I can rephrase.

 · 
x-jla

First they nominated obama the bomber, now a guy that erects walls and puts kids in cages! Nobel peace prize is setting the bar pretty high huh!

 · 
x-jla

I nominate Jeffrey Dahmer, sure he ate people, but one time he helped an old lady cross the street, thats nice.

 · 
randomised

They nominated Obama after two weeks in office, before all his bombings and killing of innocent civilians.

 · 
BabbleBeautiful

I don't agree with the NPP nomination or award of any US president as that individual cannot and does not operate within the framework of altruism, which I believe is to the the spirit of NPP.

Also, if anyone has any real understanding of the middle east it's obvious the potentially softened ties between the UAE and Israel doesn't guarantee shit.

 · 
SneakyPete

How about we leave this thread to the two wankers and their consistent fluffers, as they don't have large enough minds to change.

2  · 
tduds

Nominations are meaningless. 318 people were nominated this year. Past nominees include Adolph Hitler.

3  · 
tduds

"Over time, many individuals have become known as "Nobel Peace Prize Nominees", but this designation has no official standing, and means only that one of the thousands of eligible nominators suggested the person's name for consideration." -Wikipedia, emphasis mine.

1  · 
curtkram

trump tried to bring peace to the middle east by keeping palestine out of the talks. seriously.

2  · 
randomised

Tduds, that nomination of Hitler was done by an anti fascist activist as a kind of trolling, and it worked because no one got the prize for peace that year...obviously

 · 
randomised

Curt, you can make peace agreements with separate parties involved, one by one, saving the best for last...if all other countries in the Middle East reach agreements with Israel, that will put serious pressure on the Palestine authorities to soften up as well. I think it is a good first step, better than anything happening there under Obama and Bush...

 · 
randomised

“ How about we leave this thread to the two wankers and their consistent fluffers”

The floor is yours!

 · 
BabbleBeautiful

.

Sep 10, 20 9:38 am  · 
 · 
randomised

square, the Nobel Peace Prize is not American, the Middle East is not American and archinect, founded by a Canadian, is about bringing together designers from around the globe. Now, judging from your username here you might be a flat earther that doesn’t know what around the globe means, but it means more than just ‘Merica...




Sep 10, 20 9:40 am  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

this is news. I come here to discuss kangaroos and cilantro chopping techniques.

2  · 
randomised

I come here to post Urban Dance Squad https://youtu.be/QQZGINShLWI

 · 

No one wants to tackle the Woodward book and POTUS interviews? I'll go then ... even tying it to architecture. 

It is enraging to say the least, yet not unexpected that POTUS was lying to us the whole time about the severity of the virus and what he knew. I doubt he'll have any trouble sleeping at night, but I'd hope that a few of the members of congress that also knew and went along with it might feel a little of the weight of 190,000 dead on their shoulders. 

I thought this morning about the Citicorp tower and the structural issues that were discovered and subsequently fixed and how it is used as a case study in professional ethics in engineering and architecture curricula. LeMessurier is largely held as having acted ethically even though the scope and scale of the problems were downplayed so as to avoid public panic. It is not lost on me that POTUS and the administration were attempting to do the same as they downplayed (and are still downplaying) the severity of the virus. 

The difference I can see is that while one was managed with a proper plan and resulted in no catastrophe and no loss of life, the other had no (good) plan, and has resulted in significant loss of life. I suppose when you can downplay things and prevent the thing you're downplaying from happening, you can get away with it. I'm certain that if a storm had come and toppled the tower the case study would be taught differently. 

We'll see if POTUS gets away with it having downplayed it and not preventing the thing he was downplaying from happening. I don't know who said it first, but I've seen it a few times now ... Trump just shot 190,000 people in the middle of Fifth Ave, we'll see if he gets away with it.

P.s. I'm not happy about Woodward, Simon & Schuster, and WaPo sitting on this until now either. This might soon become something taught in journalism schools re: professional ethics. I do hope the journalism profession takes a hard look at this as well. One big reason why I'm suppressing my anger for Bob at the moment ... he's not on the ballot in November.

Sep 10, 20 1:30 pm  · 
 · 
x-jla

Downplaying the severity of the virus is bad, but exaggerating the severity is also bad. It’s also bad to lie that masks don’t work in order to prevent a buying panic, and protect supplies for frontline workers. Media and WHO and others perpetuated this lie. This pandemic has been filled with misinformation. POTUS should be held to a higher level of scrutiny, but the media has zero moral high ground. They also lied that covid doesn’t spread during protests but spreads at beaches (makes zero sense). TRUMP is a liar, and his lies definitely led to preventable deaths mainly by his older fan base who took his words as gold and ran with them.

 · 
x-jla

Its just so obnoxious that this is all being exploited for the election, and just now sources are coming our of the woodwork. The majority of trumps base will just see this as more political propaganda. Had they released this earlier, it would be more effective.

1  · 
SneakyPete

Resetting the clock to zero. Challenge still stands.

1  · 
x-jla

Let’s not even get into the lies by the WHO and CCP. That initial lie is what led to this all. Then, we have a perpetual and constant lie about where the virus began, and the US media and tech giants apparently doing China’s propaganda coverage...hmm why can that be $$$

 · 

Exaggerating the scale of the lies is also bad. Please provide sources for when it was claimed that covid isn't spread during protests. We can get into the masks thing later.

1  · 

Meh, you're full of lies.

3  · 
x-jla

My god, there are so so so many media and political assholes who said that protesting was not going to, and hasn’t spread covid. Then, they denounced the same types of gatherings. WTF is the difference between people hanging out on a beach, or marching shoulders apart shouting? Please explain? If you don’t see the hypocrisy, then I’m sorry, but you’re not tuned into what’s going on.

 · 
x-jla

Again, this does not equate to Trump=good. It just means that WE are all being played by liars from all angles, and liars lecturing us about other liars is quite annoying as their credibility is severely weak

 · 

My god you're an idiot.

3  · 
SneakyPete

JLA: I could come out and make a statement that you all agree with, but instead I'll say it it as a double negative and then pivot to a wishy-washy statement that isn't provable (even though the initial statement I could have made is...) because God forbid I have a single fucking point of view that isn't full of crap.

The rest of us: *rolling eyes in back of skulls*

1  · 
SneakyPete

Hey JLA, you know what would make the media less annoying? Having less shit to report on from corrupt fucking fat cats in politics. Having less shit to report on from corrupt cops. Having less shit to report on due to the desperation resulting from poverty that leads to crime. Having less shit to report on from institutions who are supposed to HELP the common good but instead HURT it. If that shit wasn't common, incessant, and pervasive maybe the big bad CNNs of the world would have less to report on that you would need to turn a blind eye to in order to continue whipping the wrong culprit. But then I don't think you'd know what to do with yourself without your "MEDIA IS BAD" blanket.

1  · 
x-jla

You must be living in a cave. The media and politicians downplayed the potential for the BLM protests being a super spreader event. The same exact types of gatherings, beach going, bikers, etc, were deemed dangerous and were banned and or broken up by officials. So one of two things must be true 1)they lied to blm protesters possibly causing spread and death because they saw the protests as necessary or politically beneficial 2)they lied to citizens going about other similar outdoor activities to expand power and authority for whatever reason.

 ·  1
SneakyPete

3)they reported the story with the information they had (which you do not have)

1  · 
SneakyPete

jla, where do you get your information from? Is it the media? Or do you have a group of investigators reporting things directly to you?

1  · 
x-jla

Unless you can explain how viruses don’t transmit during protests but do transmit during beach outings and parties then please don’t bother answering. Trumps lies likely killed some of his elderly followers....Leftist Politicians and media lies likely killed blm protesters elderly family members.

 · 
SneakyPete

Your armchair logic is worth about as much as the armchair. BLM protests in my town used masks. The beach-goers, political rally attendees, and motorcyle rally riders took pride in flaunting this universally agreed upon basic prevention method. This is one possible reason. Please do your best to sound completely idiotic while responding. Also I have reset the clock to zero. Challenge still stands.

1  · 
x-jla

My only point SP is that both sides are evil cunts, because politics is an evil cunty business, and media is now just propaganda wings of one party or the other. Pleeeese stop with the bad guy good guy narrative. Y’all are starting to look like hulk hogan fans, while I’m here trying to tell you that wrestling is fake.

 · 

So here's my issue with what you've posted re: protests, rallies, etc. At the time, as linked in the article you posted about protests, health officials were concerned about the virus spreading ... only after the fact that studies were showing that there wasn't a large spike of infections related to it do you see the article you posted. 

Note the timeline: June 1 article, concern about spike in protest-related cases. June 24 article, study showing protests not causing spike in cases. The study also cautions that there might be a rise in cases, but it just isn't showing, "The attendees may further be a selected subpopulation of younger individuals who if infected have less severe symptoms (Liao et al. 2020) and thus may never get tested and not show up in the official COVID-19 numbers.

Now play this out over the other articles you posted. Burning Man celebration on the beach, written at the time of the gathering. Officials were responding with caution just like with the protests. Let's wait for the follow up. 

Sturgis Motorcycle Rally, written at the time of the rally. There has been some follow up with explanations about why it has been different than the BLM protests (BLM protesters didn't gather indoors at bars and tattoo parlors). 

Now does all of this mean that the restrictions on beaches might be excessive or over reaching ... perhaps. But I don't think they are unwarranted; others can disagree. Most beach restrictions I've seen recently have still allowed people to go, just not large groups or overcrowding. Regardless the pattern has largely been the same for all of these. Specifically, concern and caution expressed, with the event happening, and then further study and analysis.

1  · 
SneakyPete

The only idiot positing a good guy bad guy narrative is you. I have not, and never will, posit a good guy as a savior. But I'm also not going to try and muddy the water (like you LOVE to try to do) so the worst of us seem less bad by comparison. And the day you have a point is the day Hell freezes over.

1  · 
x-jla

The ones who know wrestling is fake want to see Andy Kaufman poke around, and they decide the election. The clown will always win so long as the fake ness exists.

 · 
SneakyPete

You realize you're the clown, right?

1  · 
x-jla

You guys are blind to the bs. When politicians in NY like Deblasio day that I can’t attend a funeral, but can attend a blm rally, don’t be surprised when I see hypocrisy. This is not limited to the cnn article. This was widespread and you know it. You ask for a source, I post the first shit I can find, and then you act as if that source is the totality of it all. Again, just as you guys accuse right-wingers of bias, your leftist bias is apparent too. My point is, we should be equally calling out all forms of misinformation and BS, not just when it fits a political narrative.

 · 
SneakyPete

"we should be equally calling out all forms of misinformation and BS, not just when it fits a political narrative."

Irony alert.

1  · 
BabbleBeautiful

x-jla, did you even read the articles or the research paper only one of them is referring to or do you have the same reading comprehension problems as ghwarton?

1  · 
x-jla

SP, but you aren’t. You are an apologist for the left wing bs machine. I literally noted that trumps lie=death of old followers and leftist lies about blm=death of protesters elderly family members. That sound like a balanced opinion. You are assume that trumps lies led to deaths. I am assuming that Deblasio (among many others) lies led to deaths of blm supporters or their families. What’s the difference? Furthermore, did narrative of an exaggerated cfr, that the media kept regurgitating, lead to financial problems, poverty, depression, suicide, substance abuse, anxiety, peklle not going to doctors due to fear and dying from other issues, etc. We can assume the answer is at least some suffered as a result of overreaction and fear mongering.

 · 
SneakyPete

That's a real nice straw man, there. Too bad none of it is based on anything I said.

1  · 
square.

going to the bar or paying for the services of private businesses isn't protected in the constitution; free speech is.

damn that was easy.

1  · 
x-jla

I’m pretty sure that covers religious gatherings, but those were shut down too, damn that was easy

 · 
x-jla

Freedom of assembly, freedom of commerce, property rights, etc...don’t make me school you on the constitution

 · 
x-jla

Anyway square, we aren’t talking about not allowing people to protest, we are talking about media and politicians downplaying the risk of covid spreading at such constitutionally protected gatherings.

 · 
SneakyPete

You're a landscape designer, schools are outside your purview.

2  · 
SneakyPete

And instead of focusing on the problem, which is selfish people doing selfish things, you invent a reality where the media is the worst thing and, until you have actual information, it will remain a figment of the fantasy world you inhabit. You could use the brain in your head to provide insights into actual events actually happening, but you choose instead to ramble like a lunatic, tilting at windmills and saying little of consequence.

1  · 
SneakyPete

Two media articles reporting on the topic you have adamantly maintained the media won't discuss.

2  · 
x-jla

I can do this all day, but gotta do actual work. Toodles

 · 
square.

you're border line manic at this point. i'm worried.

also how old are you? "don’t make me school you" "toodles" i'm starting to think xlax is one of those teenagers masquerading as an adult landscape designer, which would explain a lot.

1  · 
square.

three other points for your thick binary skull- 1) protests were limited through curfews, and continue to be limited through police who dictate where, when, and how protests happen (only for those who don't agree with the pres, right wingers like you can march into state capitals with assault rifles and threaten governors without any recourse). 2) religious gatherings weren't really outright banned everywhere, mostly inside buildings. outdoor religious ceremonies could and do continue to happen. and virtual gatherings are happening as well. it's all about the spirit, right? 3) this is different in every state. stop pretending there's some left wing deep state controlling everyone nationwide. only your boy tRump is using the fed to bust into cities across the countries and arrest people without attending to their rights. the paranoia..

1  · 

I don't know why I have to say this, but here I am. None of the articles you posted point to the media lying about the coronavirus not being spread by protests. They may point to some hypocrisy of elected individuals (golf clap), but they don't do what you are claiming they do, nor what I asked you to do in order to refute your statement, "They also lied that covid doesn’t spread during protests but spreads at beaches (makes zero sense).

Psst, it makes zero sense because it's all in your mind.

1  · 
x-jla

Square, Trump isn’t my boy. I literally called him a liar above if you bother reading. What I’m saying is, if that’s all this books got, it will not sway the public one inch because most/all politicians are liars and have lied about covid for political reasons. Trump admitting to his lie is actually going to help him, not hurt him. You guys, and definitely the DNC, are completely oblivious to how much the average American hates and distrusts the political class and the media. The covid pandemic exacerbated that as politicians used their authority in a very inconsistent way. They lost in 2016 not because of sexism or racism, but because the Dems just ooze fakeness. Releasing this, and all the anonymous sources coming our weeks before an election are going to be totally written off as political hit pieces, whether true or not. Also, we all know trump called this “basically a flu” as was lying. What’s the news? We also knew covid obviously spread during protests and the dem politicians Were downplaying that. Duh

 · 

"We also knew covid obviously spread during protests and the dem politicians Were downplaying that." Sources please. I don't know of any politician that was downplaying that the protests could be potential spreaders. I'm not trying to stick up for Dems, btw, just trying to stick up for not exaggerating things to fit a narrative.

1  · 
square.

i'm not fan of the dnc. i understand the hatred of the political class. i'm there. i voted for bernie. but to say that trump's lying and downplaying the virus is equivalent to the "media" is asinine, and why no one takes you seriously on this site. you also qualify and bury every single thing you say with "but the left wing marxist media," rather than for once saying "you know, trump lying killed thousands of people."

 · 
x-jla

“TRUMP is a liar, and his lies definitely led to preventable deaths mainly by his older fan base who took his words as gold and ran with them.” -jla (said above 2-3x)

 · 
square.

nice editing. conveniently skipped the part about mentioning the media and WHO first; proving my point.

1  · 

Good for you. Did you need a gold star? No one has any issue with you saying things like that. At issue for now is that you've exaggerated things (or fabricated them) to fit your narrative that both sides are equally bad. And that criticism of the republican party/conservatives/right wing/etc. must also be followed with criticism of the democratic party/liberals/progressives/antifa/etc. so as not to seem like you've gone left, but not the other way around.

1  · 
x-jla

The Liberal msm and democratic politicians absolutely downplayed the threat of spread during the protests, and absolutely lied about masks to prevent panic buying. they also consistently exaggerated the threat by constantly referring to bs cfr’s when the scientific research clearly showed a much lower reality. I know people personally who didn’t go to doctors appointments

 · 
x-jla

For serious conditions because of the fear of catching covid. The fear mongering certainly had some effect no?

 · 
SneakyPete

"absolutely" "consistently" "clearly"


1  · 

[citation needed]

Also, shameless plug for a blog post where I used that Princess Bride reference too: https://archinect.com/arch-ell...

 · 

Look I'll give you that there were people that avoided doctor's appointments due to fear of catching the virus. I cancelled and haven't reschedule my regular dentist appointment (I've missed what would have been two at this point). Not likely to be an issue for me in the long term luckily. 

What I don't get is why you think it is necessary to bring this up as some sort of statement that both sides are bad. Yes, there are likely issues related to cancellations or postponements of those appointments, but do you honestly think that the effect of those people not going to the doctor during this period has had the same effect as 6.4 million people catching COVID-19 (and all the potential future complications ... whatever they may be) and 190,000 people dead in the US?

 · 
x-jla

EA, Because both sides lied about the virus constantly. The economic destruction will lead to death and despair. The anxiety and depression is a real problem. Trumps lies that downplayed the virus were a poor attempt to counter the media hysteria about the severity of the virus. I distinctly remember initially being very paranoid. We all remember the panic buyers loading up on food. The lies about masks is a whole different discussion, but likely early use of masks could have slowed the spread and helped to keep some small businesses open. The big lie, that caused all of this to begin with was from the CCP and WHO. I feel the media was very very easy on them considering that China’s lies and coverup caused the pandemic to spread beyond its borders.

 · 
x-jla

So, to answer your question, trumps lie is only part of the story, and it’s not being exposed to spread truth, as media should, but to hurt his campaign. Then, when someone says that the media is engaged in political propaganda, they get called conspiracy theorists. Are you telling me the media isn’t playing politics?

 · 

Fair enough, but that's off-topic to the discussion I started at the beginning concerning the revelations of Trump's lies from the Woodward interview. If you'd rather not discuss the topic at hand, that's fine. Please comment somewhere else rather than derail the discussion. At this point we've had maybe a handful of comments that were about the topic, and we've spent the rest of the time discussing why you feel the need to be off topic. It's not conducive to any type of meaningful discussion. BTW, I'm including myself in that criticism. I responded. I didn't have to.

BTW, if a moderator wants to hide all the comments that aren't on topic, I'm cool with that.

1  · 
SneakyPete

You carry water for Trump. You make excuses for Trump. Example: "Trumps lies that downplayed the virus were a poor attempt to counter the media hysteria about the severity of the virus." This is not fact, yet you present it as one. You are not unbiased. You are not better than. You are delusional.

1  · 

note that my response above was before I'd seen jla's comment attempting to tie it back to the topic

1  · 
SneakyPete

Please continue to set up weak assed straw men and weak assed statements designed to hide yourself from the fact that you are a right wing idealogue with delusions of neutrality. It would be amusing if it weren't so maddening.

 · 

jla, to respond to your question of whether or not the media is playing politics to hurt his campaign ... I'd refer you to the one like you've received so far in all of this back and forth. I don't like that it seems like they've held off on this until now and I agree that it seems like they are releasing it now in an attempt to persuade the electorate. But I'm also not going to let that distract me from what I see as the larger issue of keeping Trump out of the WH for 4 more years (per the postscript in my original post).

 · 
x-jla

EA, I saw that you questioned the timing of the release in your original post. I wasn’t arguing against you, I was arguing against the false narrative that goes something like “our main problem is Trump, and if we remove trump everything will be ok”. This is not true. Trump is one component of a much larger degenerative condition of the political class and the media in this country. As I’ve said before, putting all your cards on the “trump bad” narrative is not going to beat trump. We all know he’s a liar and a fraud, we just also know that they are all liars and frauds. The “trump bad” narrative has allowed others, including the public, political class, and the media, to degenerate further as they project on the easy and obvious scar on our country-trump.

 · 
x-jla

I’m not sure why this elicits so much anger from you all. Is it possible that I’m scratching the surface of an uncomfortable truth?

 · 
SneakyPete

Wishful thinking is your bread and butter.

 · 
SneakyPete

Did the media murder someone you love? Show me on this doll where the media touched you.

1  · 

I don't recall anyone saying that if we remove Trump everything will be ok. I'm under no delusions that that would be the case, and I doubt a lot of people supporting Biden believe that too. I doubt Biden would miraculously turn everything around and do a whole lot better, but I'm fairly certain it would be better than Trump, and if not a step in the right direction it would at least be a good idea to get Trump out of the oval office. 

So while I applaud you for your lofty goals, no, we won't take care of the "much larger degenerative condition of the political class and media in this country" in one election ... but getting rid of Trump seems like a good place to start. Showing incumbent republicans that were silent or complicit to Trump's offenses in order to avoid getting "primary-ed" out of their seats that there are consequences for their complicity and tribalism would also be good. 

As for the dem's hypocrisy and the left-wing media conspiracies you like to complain about so much ... sure, let's get rid of that too, but it's like halfway down the list for me.

 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Man, this is so good.

If The Orange Shitgibbon had just done his job from day one, and not play 365 days of golf over the course of three years, none of this would be occurring.

End of fucking story.

 · 
x-jla

EA, I only disagree with one thing, the Dems are not better, and they are potentially worse. You are still Operating under this idea that Trumpism is more dangerous than whatever the Democrats and their recent far left wing will usher in. I think both are dangerous roads to go down. 4 years of Projecting on trump has resulted in a party that is even more degenerate and corrupt than they were in 2016.

 · 

jla, fair enough. I didn't think you'd agree and it makes sense you'd side with Trump over the Dems given your biases.

 · 
x-jla

I’m not siding with trump, and I don’t have to operate within the false dichotomy that you are operating in. I’ll vote Jo Jorgensen, and if she isn’t on the ballot I won’t vote at all. If this were 2001, I’d say the Dems were the lesser of 2 evils, in 2008 I voted Obama because we needed a change from the neocons, 2016 I voted Johnson because both options were trash.

 · 
x-jla

Saying that Bundy was worse than Dahmer isn’t an endorsement of Dahmer...just means I can predict his pathology easier, and he’s less frightening. Both are scary though.

 · 
x-jla

Actually, come to think of it, I’ve never voted for a Republican.

 · 
SneakyPete

you just vote knowing full well it enables the republicans yet not caring about the consequences because it allows you to continue living the lie inside your head -all you truly care about- which is: "I'm always right."

 · 
x-jla

Ya, I vote in a way I think is right, that’s the point of voting. Lol

 · 

I’ll concede that my comment for you siding with Trump was a false dichotomy. I’ll also point out that it’s not a false dichotomy that the political system is a two-party system which forces a dichotomy if you want to end up voting for the eventual president. So yes, you’re free to not side with him, but whether you like it or not, if your not voting for Biden, your vote will be counted as favorable to Trump given his advantage in the electoral college. I know you already understand that. I’m only pointing it out to indicate that while I agree with your comment about the point of voting, it doesn’t really work out that idealistically in reality. You only have to go back to the beginning of Politics Central to see that I’d favor changes made to get away from a two-party system and that you agree with me.

1  · 

All this has given me a new idea. Someone posts something that points to Republican hypocrisy and we see if jla responds to denounce it, or to support it.

A few rules: Up until the point jla responds, people can place their predictions of whether he will support or denounce. You can't place a prediction on something you post. First to reply with the correct prediction gets to post next. I'll go first. 

Mitch McConnell and filling a Supreme Court vacancy during an election year. 2016: Wait for the election and let the people decide who should fill the vacancy. 2020: "Oh, we'd fill it."

Sep 10, 20 8:21 pm  · 
2  · 
x-jla

Obviously hypocrisy. Judges should not be political activists first off, their job is to interpret and uphold the constitution. The republicans questioning Sotomayor started this ridiculous and dangerous trend where we question the partisanship of judges.

 · 
SneakyPete

My turn: Trump constantly complained that Obama was abusing Executive Orders, yet now is using them to excess.

1  · 

Adding in a rule that you need to cite sources too: Here's one for SP's issue. Also probably better to start a new comment for new issues rather than simply add to the replies. 

Prediction: He'll denounce it, but also make a comment about how the hyper-partisanship and dysfunction in congress has caused the chief executive to use them more or something like that.

1  · 
x-jla

I agree SP. trump abuses executive orders. This is not hard, but talking about what we agree on is kinda boring no?

 · 
x-jla

Here’s one, immigration. I completely disagree with everything about trumps immigration policies. I’m actually for open borders, probably to the left of most on that issue. The market will self regulate and people will immigrate with opportunity or lack there of

 · 
SneakyPete

You don't get to start.

 · 

It’s not like we are really talking about what we agree on, rather we are simply teasing out whether you can be critical of the right as much as you can be for the left. Also, I think seeing where we have common ground is helpful in combating partisanship.

 · 

This one maybe isn’t as straightforward as the others have been, but Republican attempts to restrict abortion through restrictive state legislation haven’t largely been attributed with the overall reduction in abortion rate. Rather, access to contraceptives covered under the ACA, among other things, are more likely to have caused the decline. I shouldn’t need to point out that Republicans and their evangelical base aren’t that into being pro-choice, contraceptives, nor the ACA. For articles, there are many (https://khn.org/morning-breakout/abortion-rate-hits-record-low-but-experts-say-its-not-state-restrictions-that-are-responsible-for-the-dip/), but it seems most of these are relying on a report from the left-leaning, pro-choice Guttmacher Institute. #fulldisclosure

Sep 11, 20 8:10 am  · 
 · 
randomised

“ Rather, access to contraceptives covered under the ACA, among other things, are more likely to have caused the decline.”

That’s very good news!

 · 
x-jla

It’s good that abortion is down, and I am into contraceptives, but also support the freedom of speech and religion, and think it’s more important than an employees access to free contraceptives. There is no constitutional amendment guarantees free contraceptives. Their is one that guarantees free speech and freedom of religion (regardless of how wacky the religious idea is). Should note, I’m also not religious, but I do not agree with abortion beyond a very early point. It’s a scientific debate, and subjective as to when personhood begins. From a purely constitutional standpoint, a “person” has a right to life and liberty. So, taking science into account when does a person become a person, and at that point it makes sense that their rights would kick in.

 ·  1
x-jla

That’s a different debate though

 · 
x-jla

Let me add,,,abortion can also be limited without trampling anyone’s rights. The procedure can be limited at the medical professional regulatory level. So in essence, it’s not illegal for a woman to get a 2nd trimester abortion, it’s just not a service that is available. And, an important point is that you don’t have to right to another persons service. Back to the ACA thing, upon employment, a company that opts out should probably have to disclose that in the employment contract.

 ·  1
Non Sequitur

ummm, you're trampling dangerous territory Jla. Putting aside your silly personhood/constitution nonsense (it is), you assume most abortions are elective and late term while in reality, the vast majority of them are medical necessities or within the first trimester. What you're doing by adding all these inane stipulations is creating further hurdles to basic woman healthcare and preventing them from exercising their choice of their bodies.

 · 
x-jla

Non, we can have a pure scientific debate as to when a person is a person, but it’s all going to be based on subjective criteria, because there is no exact point from a scientific perspective that life begins other than the formation of a unique DNA code, and that happens immediately upon conception.

 · 
x-jla

I love this debate, because it teases out the scientific minded people, the religious people, and the ones who adhere to a political religion but pretend to be science minded...

 · 
Non Sequitur

so, we agree that it's a complicated thing... and certainly something well above the intellectual capacity of politicians and "public opinion". Important medical services should not be based on fluffy labels such as "personhood" in this case. Another low social evolutionary point by the good folks of M'urica.

 · 
Non Sequitur

Jla, it also teases out people who think they are smart on the subject but in reality, they fall flat on their ignorant faces very quickly. There is no debate here, only the illusion of one by those who simply cannot (or refuse to) understand the issues. I know which group you belong in.

 · 
x-jla

Non, as for the emergency late term abortions, that’s obviously an exemption, and it’s also very rare that an abortion is beneficial to save a woman’s life. You are bringing that up to divert from the harder question.

 · 
x-jla

Non, the personal attacks for me are a sign that you have nothing of substance to add. If you think a grown man with a dozen broken bones gets his feelings hurt by snarky Internet insults then...idk what to say...at the most it’s just boring and mildly annoying...

 · 
Non Sequitur

I am not. Just like the person-hood term, inserted into this topic by idiot religious folks to fake a debate, you're missing the bigger pictures. The debate here is a false one and I equal it with the same intellectual level as flat earth or creationism. To debate your silly POV is to give your "points" ill-deserved sense of importance. Take the hint, you're drastically on the wrong side.

 · 
x-jla

A) does a person have a right to not be killed? B) When does a person become a person, and why? Please base B on scientific reasoning not subjective opinion.

 · 
Non Sequitur

Instead of relying on the real issues, you're focused on a inane definition of term specifically inserted into this "debate" to steer the conversation in favor of the anti-crowd. Again, another example as to why M'erica is the shit show it is today. Don't confuse my avoidance of debate as sign that I am not informed. I am exceptionally well versed on this topic. I am simply not in the mood to educate someone who cares little about the issue.

 · 

Does this mean that randomised is next? He was the only one to submit a reply before jla ... just no predictions.

 · 
SneakyPete

That should be good...

 · 
Non Sequitur

from EA's article, and part of the issues I insinuate above: 

"They say the increased harassment has coincided with newly enacted state laws restricting legal abortion and polarizing rhetoric surrounding the procedure." 

Nonsense term definition circle jerking and false "scientific appeals" like jla's lead to this type crap. Enjoy your flaming dumpster.

 · 
x-jla

“I like democracy, as long as everyone has the same opinion as me” -non

 · 
randomised

“ Does this mean that randomised is next? He was the only one to submit a reply before jla ... just no predictions.”

Next what ? Not following...

 · 
SneakyPete

Reading comprehension has never been one of your strongest suits.

2  · 
SneakyPete

"Define something scientists can't agree on, then base all policy on my personal definition because you can't do what I demand" - X-Lax


"I'm a big tough guy in real life and therefore feel the need to brag about it on the internet to win internet points while accusing someone else of wanting to be an internet tough guy. The irony is totally invisible to me" - Also X-Lax

 · 
randomised

So help me out here oh mighty Sneak, what was meant by EA’s words.

 · 
SneakyPete

Ask EA.

 · 
x-jla

SneakyPete, lemme fix that...
"Define something scientists cant agree on, then base my personal definition on my careful logical interpretation of the science, because in a democracy I am entitled to my opinion" -

 · 
x-jla

"I'm a grown man in real life and therefore I feel the need to Not engage in ad hominem attacks on the internet to win internet points while calling out someone else for resorting to ad hominem attacks.”- Also X-Lax

 · 
x-jla

“Democratic socialism is all fun and games until the majority disagrees with me, then I get mad and call them stupid”

 · 
x-jla

And SP, you obviously didn’t get the “sticks and stones” lecture when you were a kid because you missed my reference totally

 · 

randomised

All this has given me a new idea. Someone posts something that points to Republican hypocrisy and we see if jla responds to denounce it, or to support it. 

 A few rules: Up until the point jla responds, people can place their predictions of whether he will support or denounce. You can't place a prediction on something you post. First to reply with the correct prediction gets to post next. 

Adding in a rule that you need to cite sources too. Also probably better to start a new comment for new issues rather than simply add to the replies.

 · 

While we wait for randomised ... I'll throw some fuel on the fire. 

Religious freedom is guaranteed by the first amendment from being infringed by any law that congress would pass, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." A person's freedom to exercise their religion freely, does not enable them to create law making other people adhere to their religious creed. So if a person's religion teaches that abortion is wrong and/or that contraception is wrong ... fine. It means that congress cannot pass a law requiring them to get an abortion or use contraception. Doesn't mean we need to have a law prohibiting those things. For any person so religiously inclined, they can freely exercise their religion and abstain from having an abortion or using contraception. 

Same goes for what a religion might teach as the beginning of life. If someone's religion teaches that life begins at conception, fine. If they also believe that taking a life is bad, I'd extrapolate that they would abstain from getting an abortion. And I know, jla, that you are not trying to use a religious argument to define "personhood." I'm not saying your motives are religious in nature and I'll be fine giving you the benefit of the doubt. However, I'd wager that the vast majority of people's interest in defining "personhood," even if using a scientific rationale, is religious in nature to support their religious beliefs. 

To preempt the argument that the ACA infringes on a persons religion by making them provide for contraception for their employers. I call BS. Religion is by and large a personal and individual matter. Providing for a woman's healthcare is not infringing on a person's religion. It's a slippery slope if you start to think that it is. Next I'll say that my religion teaches that adultery is wrong so I shouldn't have to pay taxes that support any roads that are used by adulterers as they travel to and from their adulterous rendezvous. 

Additionally, the Supreme Court ruling that supposedly supported the religious exemption for the contraceptive mandate wasn't really decided on the grounds of religious freedom. Rather it was decided on whether or not the ACA allowed the administration to carve out the exemptions based on religious or moral grounds. It does according to a 7-2 ruling. "The Supreme Court’s analysis was limited to whether HRSA had administrative authority under the statute to carve out exemptions, and did not look to whether the administration’s exemption was mandated by the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Thus, a future administration could potentially reduce the scope of this exemption," (emphasis mine).

1  · 
x-jla

“A person's freedom to exercise their religion freely, does not enable them to create law making other people adhere to their religious creed. “. No one is forced to adhere to anything though, because an employment arrangement is a voluntary transaction between an employer and an employee, and the employee is free to get contraception on their own, just not on the companies dime. No one has a “right“ to free access to services or goods. I’ll have to read the actual SCOTUS decision when I have time....

 · 
Non Sequitur

EA, your patience for addressing nonsensical POVs is admirable.

2  · 
x-jla

“Religion is by and large a personal and individual matter. Providing for a woman's healthcare is not infringing on a person's religion. “ Let’s say a Muslim owned company provides free lunch for its employees as part of their employee benefits. Should that company have to right to limit their free lunch to a Halal cafeteria, or should they be forced to use a cafeteria that sells pork and does not adhere to Halal? The free lunch is not a right, it’s a benefit that is part of the employment arrangement.

 · 

I'm not disagreeing that the employment arrangement is voluntary, but there are aspects of employment that are regulated by law. Providing for healthcare is regulated by the ACA. Providing for minimum wage and working conditions are also regulated by law, etc.

 · 
x-jla

I buy all my food at a Halal butcher, because they have cleaner and better quality meats, maybe I’ll ask him this weekend when I stop in to shop....

 · 
x-jla

In essence, if the employer has the option to provide nothing, then providing something is speech. Forcing the Muslim to provide lunch for the non-halal cafeteria And the halal cafeteria imo would be compelled speech.

 · 

No one is regulating whether the muslim employer provides lunch. The ACA is regulating whether employers provide healthcare. I'm not aware of anyone challenging the ACA on the grounds of freedom of speech so ... what are you getting at?

 · 
x-jla

The employee can still eat what they please obviously, They just have to pay for it on their own.

 · 
SneakyPete

x-lax, you're standing in a field of sand that used to be your house and yet still condemn others for throwing stones. You engage in every fallacy there is and still find the time to call out others.

2  · 
x-jla

EA, hypothetically let’s assume AOC wins in 2030 and free lunch becomes a thing that employers have to provide while employees are on the clock. Then?

 · 
x-jla

It’s essentially the same thing. The employee is not being forced into that arrangement. I would add that the employer should be required to disclose that xyz is not provided....

 · 
x-jla

Since non won’t answer, SP up for a question? A) does a person have a right to not be killed? B) When does a person become a person, and why? Please base B on scientific reasoning not subjective opinion.

 · 
x-jla

A) Yes. B) the only tangible criteria for life is the formation of a unique DNA sequence, or possibly can be argued consciousness. The first brain activity occurs 5-6 weeks, so sometime between conception and week 5-6... There is my answer

 · 
Non Sequitur

jla, like I wrote earlier, I'm not addressing your loaded questions because they are shit and not an actually useful or intelligent pov. Utter ignorance on your part.

2  · 
SneakyPete

Yeah, I stopped playing made up games with children where the rules changed so the kid who was the biggest jerk would inevitably win when I stopped being a child. So until you stop being a disingenuous jerk I won't be entertaining your leading questions. You have fun, though.

1  · 
x-jla

Non, SP, the challenge stands. Answer or you forfeit your right to engage in this debate.