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NCARB Says my School is not accredited, but it is....

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Hi All;

I am in the process of starting my ARE taking an was going to request ARE testing authorization from NCARB. When I sat down to do this, I was shown to be ineligible to do this, and it seem to be because NCARB things my M.Arch is from a accredited institution, even though I know it it (University of Oregon Portland Program). Has anyone else had this problem? I'm currently equal part angry and amused at this screw up. 

Please let me know, thanks. 

 
Oct 4, 15 3:37 am
null pointer

1. Calm down.

2. Call them.

Not that hard.

Oct 4, 15 9:17 am

Point them to NAAB. 

A question?

Was your education a 2-yr. or 3-yr. M.Arch? or was it a 1-yr. M.Arch (post-professional).

The two and three year (professional) degrees are NAAB accredited.

http://naab.org/r/schools/view.aspx?record_id=20592&origin=results&QS=QS&f1_4595=4&startrec=1&viewby=50&union=AND&top_parent=243

Accreditation is good until 2021 (next renewal cycle).

Oct 4, 15 10:23 am
Both are right. Call them, but only if it is a 2 or 3 year program. The 1 year M.Arch is meant as a post professional degree and usually are not accredited as those are more of a path into academia.
Oct 4, 15 11:09 am

It's a 2 year M.Arch (one of my tasks as a GRF was actually to get files together for the next round of accreditation). I know it has to be a screwup on their end since a few of my classmate have already taken their tests and become licensed. I'll call them first thing Monday morning, tis just seems like such a weird and specific mistake that I wanted to see if anyone had experienced it.

Thanks. 

Oct 4, 15 12:35 pm

Josh,

More accurately, the one year M.Arch program is post-professional degree and is for those who already has an NAAB accredited bachelors of architecture degree.

Whether it is used for academia jobs or not is irrelevant.

Oct 4, 15 2:10 pm
I'm well aware of what the one year M.Arch is, Richard. Most people with their post-professional Masters tend to teach, if not teach and practice.

What I'm confused by is the term Professional Building Designer, and why such a thing is even in existence. But that's not a topic for this thread.
Oct 5, 15 12:20 am

True, Josh. I just don't assume all who pursue post-professional degree tends to teach but I'm not arguing for or against the argument of 'most'. 

Regarding the latter part.

I agree, the PDP title is not a topic for this thread but it is important to note there are licensed professionals and there are professionals. Licensed professionals are professionals but not all professionals are licensed professionals. Lets leave it at that with this thread and we can continue it in PM.

Oct 5, 15 12:45 am
JeromeS

Ah, RWCB-PBD, I see you've made another friend...

Oct 5, 15 9:39 am
alrightalright

it's not "irrelevant" what most people tend to do with a specific degree; in fact it is a useful way to measure whether or not the degree is suitable for you (albeit not the only way, but still useful).

RWCB-PBD, you find the strangest things to pick fights about... I'm infinitely impressed with your prolific ability to respond to and invest time in so many posts... it makes me wonder when you actually do any of your professional building designing

Oct 5, 15 10:19 am

alrightalright,

In regards to the topic, it is irrelevant as it is totally a tangent. Additionally, it is one person's opinion. There is little if any real statistical data. Add to that, it is a moving target. What people do with it is a choice and it is irrelevant to the discussion of NAAB accreditation of University of Oregon which is answered. In addition, if someone wants a job in the federal government and is competing or a host of other reasons including a personal goal is entirely fluidic and depends on many factors but that is not what this thread topic is about.

My point isn't about whether or not the information is a useful way to measure whether or not the degree is suitable for a person, a more in-depth discussion and properly conducted statistical survey, data collection and analysis is certainly worthy of its own thread topic.

I was trying to not direct the discussion on that on THIS thread. I think reality is a tad more fluid and the matters are more variable and whether it is most or not is kind of presumptuous that it is static and never changes. 

As I said, I neither agree or disagree with Josh's statement of 'most'.

Oct 5, 15 12:25 pm
placebeyondthesplines

@alrightalright

RWCB, PBD hasn't ever designed anything other than the pillow fort in his parents' basement.

Oct 6, 15 5:07 am
Sharky McPeterson

As if the title "post-professional" degree wasn't a clear enough reference to its typical application. With or without the statistics, I think most in the field would assume that if someone is going back to school for an M.Arch II, that that person was thinking about teaching.

Oct 6, 15 1:03 pm
null pointer

did the dude even call NCARB?

 

this is such a dumb thread.

Oct 6, 15 2:30 pm

Sharky,

Did you even read what I wrote? My point is that if a person pursuing a post-professional degree in M.Arch can be for almost any thing and that is a personal choice. Not unless you are just a drone with no thinking of your own. Sometimes a person may get it because they want to get certain jobs that prefers people with Masters degrees or a host of other reasons. Sometimes, it can be simply a little personal. People are individuals not numerical statistics. 

Again, what the fuck does that have to do with this thread topic?

If you are a professor, I would have to smack you across the back of your head with total lack of reading skills.

Oct 6, 15 3:08 pm
tduds

"People are individuals not numerical statistics."

Until you aggregate them.

Oct 6, 15 3:23 pm
Sharky McPeterson

Richard,

Putting aside the ad hominem statements, what you're saying makes very little sense.

I suppose you could get a degree in veterinary medicine and go into a corporate business job. However, it would probably make more sense to major in business.

Likewise, you can get an M.Arch II and have no intention of becoming a professor. However, if you don't intend on doing that, it would probably not make much sense to obtain a M.Arch II. I cannot think of any practical reasons besides being able to teach. Outside of teaching, you're wasting money on a degree you really don't need for anything.

Oct 6, 15 4:04 pm
kjdt

The original poster's school doesn't even offer a 1-year M.Arch - their 1-year program is an MS, not an M.Arch.  The only M.Arch programs offered there are all NAAB-accredited.  

Balkins:  You are the one who brought the 1-year M.Arch into the discussion in the first place - why are you swearing at others to stop discussing it when you started it?

There are two possibilities for the source of the original poster's issue: 

1. Glitch on NCARB's site.  Solution: Contact NCARB.  

or 2. Maybe the original poster graduated before the M.Arch program was accredited.  Usually when a program is initially NAAB-accredited it applies retroactively to the graduates of the previous two years.  It can be a bit risky to be in the early classes of a new program though, because if the first accreditation isn't granted when anticipated then the earliest grads end up with unaccredited degrees.  Since the OP says his classmates have not had this problem, this probably isn't the case, though he doesn't say where they sought their licenses and education requirements vary state to state...

Oct 6, 15 4:07 pm
curtkram

I cannot think of any practical reasons besides being able to teach.

put off real life for one more year?

Oct 6, 15 4:08 pm

Sharky,

People don't always make decisions simply on your perspective of practical. People make decisions for themselves not what makes sense to you or me or anyone else for that matter.

Do you understand that?

Practical reasons can be just about anything.

Oct 6, 15 4:21 pm

kjdt,

Think to why I asked that question. I brought it up because Abraham didn't make clear in his original post which M.Arch degree. I didn't bring it up to discuss the value of it or why someone would get it.

My response to Josh was exactly what it meant. Precisely, I said it was irrelevant for this discussion to discuss more on the 1-yr M.Arch because Abraham clarified in his second post. Therefore, why the FUCK are we debating this on this thread?

#2 is a not a chance unless he went to architecture school it prior to 1974. I highly doubt it. He doesn't even look old enough. 

http://naab.org/r/schools/view.aspx?record_id=20592&origin=results&QS=QS&f1_4595=4&startrec=1&viewby=50&union=AND&top_parent=243

Oct 6, 15 4:26 pm

Bartending puts off real life far better and is more lucrative vs. entry level architecture. Although the haze of smoke is lacking in bars these days...

Oct 6, 15 4:27 pm
kjdt

He stated in his first post that he has an M.Arch.  He also stated which school he attended.  Therefore it was clear that he had either a 2-year or 3-year M.Arch, because his school does NOT offer a 1-year M.Arch - so there was no reason for you to ask it in the first place.  Why don't you get off the internet for a few days and find a job so that you can afford that $500 to be able to eat on campus while you attend your 11th year of community college. 

Oct 6, 15 4:33 pm

kjdt,

Okay. The school used to called the 1-year M.Arch an M.Arch degree. Used to be called: M.Arch I (1-year), M.Arch II (2-year) and M.Arch III (3+ year). They must have changed that fairly recently.

The 1 year M.Arch was relabeled as an M.A. Architecture or M.S. Architecture.

Oct 6, 15 4:41 pm

kjdt,

The $500 wasn't just for eating food but also for (books or tools), materials and supplies. Since you haven't paid any attention, I'm already working on these things as it is. 

Oct 6, 15 4:45 pm
Sharky McPeterson

@curtkram

Lol, touché!

@Richard,

Practical reasons can be just about anything.

I'm getting the feeling you're being a contrarian simply for the sake of being a contrarian here. Your stream of thought doesn't quite add up, and I think even you must be aware of that.

Oct 6, 15 4:46 pm
JeromeS

$500 to be able to eat on campus

LOL!   No, I'm pretty sure you said you needed the money to eat on campus.  I remember thinking, at the time, that for a guy with no money to go to school, that sure is a lot, particularly when you could bring a lunch.

Oct 6, 15 4:49 pm

There is float figures to factor in for tuition and fees and tools (workshop courses) and materials and supplies in addition to food. Food alone probable wouldn't even need $500. $500/3 terms is round $166/167 a term. If you do the path, that's about $15 worth a week. Even then, I can shave costs here and there. It's an estimate. It is possible that costs be less in some areas but more in other areas. It doesn't hurt to pad a little for rough estimate budget. As I said, a budget figure. 

Even if I could bring a lunch. As a matter of fact, it is rough budgetary estimate nothing more. It isn't hard line. As is, I'm already moving along $200+ ahead as it is. In that, I already received a foundation grant for a Cooperative Work Experience course of two credits worth. 

Cooperative Work Experience is an opportunity for money as well. I'm not saying it be alot of money but can be enough to help cover expenses.

Oct 6, 15 5:01 pm
kjdt

I was paying attention.  Ricky you write so much you can't keep track of it yourself.  This is a cut-and-paste quote:

"I'll be looking at finishing the rest of my Associates degree in Historic preservation at Clatsop Community College while I am here which would cost around $900 in tuition and fees and a budget of maybe $1,500 so as to cover any books and supplies. Ideally, $2000 so I can have food at campus as well. "

 

...and that sort of post doesn't really help with your credibility as a "professional building designer".  I mean we're somewhere around the same age give or take a few years, and so should be somewhere around the same point in our professional careers, but for you $500 to $2000 seems to be a major commitment.  Why is that?  You claim it's more lucrative to keep your "building design" business running than to get a full time grunt job - which implies you're making some real money - and you don't have high living expenses (if any) - so how is $500 a career-stalling obstacle for you while it's discretionary spending money for me?   What are you spending all your fees on? If you're really designing any buildings, and not giving away your services, then why can't you afford what to me would be less than 2 business days' wages for your year of on-campus food?

Oct 6, 15 5:10 pm
kjdt

You don't have any kids to support, or even a car.  You live with your parents.  You say you never go out in the evenings, don't drink, no girlfriend or boyfriend.  You describe your computers and equipment as very outdated and barely functional.  But you claim to be running two businesses, on which you claim to spend most of your time, and you claim to have multiple ongoing projects. What on earth is all your money going toward?  Do you smoke 20 packs a day? Collect rare Beanie Babies? Temporarily support a Nigerian prince because he's leaving you his millions?  What's the deal?

Oct 6, 15 5:18 pm

Right now, business in in between clients and there is no predicting if or when the next client will show up. Building Design as with architecture business lives on client paycheck to client paycheck. You live on client to client. There is no predicting. 

Right now, I am already working towards this as it is. Why do you think I am enrolled in Cooperative Work Experience ? 

Where is my discretionary spending going? Lets see, renewing IDP might just be one of those expenses? 

Oct 6, 15 5:24 pm

Where is my discretionary spending going? Lets see, renewing IDP might just be one of those expenses? 

If you really want to get ahead of kjdt in this argument, you might try picking an expense that costs more than roughly $1.50 per week currently. You can probably find that by just wandering around looking for change left in the "take a penny, leave a penny" jars in local gas stations and convenience stores.

Just sayin'...

Oct 6, 15 5:35 pm
BR.TN

^$75, haha.

Richard Water Closet Balkins

Oct 6, 15 6:35 pm
kjdt

If you're between clients, and there's no telling if or when another project might turn up, and you haven't historically made enough that you've been able to save 6 months to a year's income for the slow periods, and for expenses such as tuition and food, then wouldn't you be much better off - both financially and in gaining experience - if you'd get a full time paying job?

If you're earning so little as a "professional building designer" that IDP is a hardship and you can only hope to save $500 for food, then your building design business is somewhere between failing and fictitious.

And why pay tuition for someone to supervise your cooperative work experience to satisfy requirements for a redundant associate degree?  Stop collecting associate degrees.  They won't get you anywhere - they're just stalling tactics.  

Get a real job where you get paid and don't have to pay any of it to a college to supervise you.  Let's say you have to start at even just $12.50 per hour - that would be $500/week.  Yes I know - taxes, FICA, the money your parents will want as a cut of the living expenses, IDP fees, student loan payments - all that will chip away at it - but it's better than earning nothing, or having to pay the community college to supervise you - especially if it's in a fake job invented for that purpose (like you described the coop experience you had to do to get your drafting certificate.)

 

As for the original poster:  I think the problem is just that the Portland program doesn't have its own accreditation - it's a satellite of UO's main program - NAAB and NCARB both have it in their records as the Eugene campus address.  

Oct 6, 15 7:35 pm

E_I,

Yes there are other expenses, as well. I said it is one of the expenses not the only one. 

Oct 6, 15 7:40 pm
no_form

balkins is like a terrorist, hijacking every thread.

Oct 6, 15 7:45 pm

I caught your wording of it being "one of those expenses" the first time. My point was that if you want to get ahead of kjdt (or others) ... generally, don't bring up an expense that most would consider extremely minor as the only named example you offer (albeit with the catch-all that it is only one of them).

I also caught the fact that you phrased it as a question, but I didn't feel the need to bring that up. That might be even more illustrative of how much kjdt has you backpedaling in this case, you were asking him/her if renewing IDP was a sufficient enough expense for them to believe you and let you off. However, I'm sure you'll play the question mark off as a simple typo because you don't take the time to proofread what you write.

Oct 6, 15 8:09 pm

kjdt,

Offer a job position!

Oct 6, 15 8:26 pm
kjdt

Send me a resume, cover letter, and work samples.

Oct 6, 15 9:18 pm

If you're between clients, and there's no telling if or when another project might turn up, and you haven't historically made enough that you've been able to save 6 months to a year's income for the slow periods, and for expenses such as tuition and food, then wouldn't you be much better off - both financially and in gaining experience - if you'd get a full time paying job?

How much do you charge to make that much money. People don't make that kind of money. For about the twice the amount of time to design a 5,000 sq.ft. house, I can design a 50,000 sq.ft. commercial building and make over 10x as much money but guess what, I am not allowed to design 50,000 sq.ft. commercial buildings as projects in Oregon. Doing big projects is easy money generation because the amount of labor involved, you have a gain. Add to that, commercial clients are willing to pay more. 6 months of savings isn't likely. I have to earn in 3 to 6 months time window enough income entire year or more income to satisfy 6-12 months of low periods. Clients aren't going to pay that kind of money. They aren't going to pay more than 10% of their income. After all, lending sources do not allow the money to be used to pay for design services.... only construction. People don't earn that level of income. The people with kind of money don't live in the area.

Sorry, I don't have Donald Trump as a client. If I did, I wouldn't have any excuse for money issues at all... nor would he have any right to claim financial hardship, either to pay a premium fee. 

If you're earning so little as a "professional building designer" that IDP is a hardship and you can only hope to save $500 for food, then your building design business is somewhere between failing and fictitious.

And why pay tuition for someone to supervise your cooperative work experience to satisfy requirements for a redundant associate degree?  Stop collecting associate degrees.  They won't get you anywhere - they're just stalling tactics.  

The reason is for wrapping up the associates degree in historic preservation is for licensing requirements. It isn't necessarily a hardship. I received a grant that is covering tuition for cooperative work experience. The other courses are just a couple workshops (one being used to substitute the intro to historic preservation) and a directed projects.

For me, I am using it to shore up and build connections and doing more on the public awareness side. In business, that is what you have to do. 

 

Get a real job where you get paid and don't have to pay any of it to a college to supervise you.  Let's say you have to start at even just $12.50 per hour - that would be $500/week.  Yes I know - taxes, FICA, the money your parents will want as a cut of the living expenses, IDP fees, student loan payments - all that will chip away at it - but it's better than earning nothing, or having to pay the community college to supervise you - especially if it's in a fake job invented for that purpose (like you described the coop experience you had to do to get your drafting certificate.)

The cooperative work experience project isn't in this case isn't designing a garage/workshop for the CWE director or anything like that. This one is different. 

Oct 7, 15 1:02 am

Send me a resume, cover letter, and work samples.

Identify yourself and your firm. 

'kjdt' means as much as a randomly selected letters.

Oct 7, 15 4:00 am
null pointer

In a major city, you get that much turn-over, Balkins; and if you're good at what you do, you get to charge for things other than drawing plans.

Not everyone chooses to live in bumfuck nowhere and then complain about work.

 

Also, if you really cared about business development, you'd be begging Paul Petrunia to delete all of your posts in this forum. If I was your competition, it would take me 3.5 minutes to win a contract over you, even while charging a higher rate ("Have you seen that guy's trail on the internet? He's clearly crazy").

Oct 7, 15 7:53 am
kjdt

Richard my firm is identified in one or more employment ads currently running, and I am identified as the point of contact. We have never received any application materials from you, and I'd hazard to guess that's the case with all other firms, currently advertising or not, throughout the world.  If you continue to talk yourself out of applying anywhere then you'll never have a real career - it's that simple.  Your building designer "business" will continue to be a very part-time hobby and you'll never be able to afford food.

As for the 6-month to 1-year emergency fund: that's sound financial practice for all adults.  It doesn't mean you need to make enough money in every 6-month period to last that year - it just means you need to build up that much of a safety net over time, so that if and when the slow times or the emergencies (i.e. urgent home repair, illness, legal issues) come you can ride them out comfortably.  If your business isn't yielding enough to build that cushion over a few years then it's not likely to be viable in the long run and you need to find other work to supplement or replace it.

The first paragraph of your long response to me above strongly affirms exactly why you can't survive on your own, and that you'd be better off joining an established firm, with licensed principals, that can work on larger projects.

Oct 7, 15 10:27 am

kjdt,

Richard my firm is identified in one or more employment ads currently running, and I am identified as the point of contact. We have never received any application materials from you, and I'd hazard to guess that's the case with all other firms, currently advertising or not, throughout the world.  If you continue to talk yourself out of applying anywhere then you'll never have a real career - it's that simple.  Your building designer "business" will continue to be a very part-time hobby and you'll never be able to afford food.

kjdt, how many firms advertises on that list? Which one references to "kjdt" as a contact. I'm sure I have an idea as to what you are trying to do, though.

As for the 6-month to 1-year emergency fund: that's sound financial practice for all adults.  It doesn't mean you need to make enough money in every 6-month period to last that year - it just means you need to build up that much of a safety net over time, so that if and when the slow times or the emergencies (i.e. urgent home repair, illness, legal issues) come you can ride them out comfortably.  If your business isn't yielding enough to build that cushion over a few years then it's not likely to be viable in the long run and you need to find other work to supplement or replace it.

Kjdt,

How often does any employee even have 6 months to a years of savings? That is pretty idealistic. Sure, it is sound if people are willing to pay you. Everybody wants everything for nothing. Unless I offer construction, it is difficult to market as a building designer when a contractors aren't charging for the design. They subsidize it and make it up in their overhead & profits and so forth.

How can you compete with free services?

As for established firms, it always takes time to set up.

Oct 7, 15 1:21 pm

kjdt,

Which city/state? There are quite a few firms there in the list. 

Oct 7, 15 1:29 pm
kjdt

What I'm "trying to do" is get you to apply to some firms, so you can survive, because everything you write about how hard it is for you to compete and save any money are exactly the reasons why you'd be better off working for an established firm - at least until you have a few years more experience and a stronger portfolio so you could attract more lucrative projects!

I would think that most people could save an emergency fund of six months' living expenses over the course of their first 3 to 5 years of full time work - that's just a matter of putting away 10% to 15% of your gross pay per check.  At the very least everyone should have 3 months' minimum in savings - because it can easily take that long to find a new job, or take that much money to fix various common household calamities.  Without that you're living on the brink of disaster. 

Oct 7, 15 1:31 pm
kjdt

Besides this 3 to 6 month safety net issue, at the rate you're going what are you planning to do about some provision for when you're too old to work?  You're in your mid 30s - you should have a solid start on a nest egg by now. 

Think about it:  even IF you believe social security will still exist, AND you don't retire until you're 75, AND you only want to live the lifestyle in your retirement that you could live today on an income of less than 30k per year, you should be saving a minimum of $500 per month right now for that very meager and brief retirement.   If the idea of saving even 6 months of living expenses is a wild pipe dream to you, then what you're doing is NOT working.

Oct 7, 15 1:38 pm
Living in Gin

.

Oct 7, 15 1:45 pm
null pointer

Ban RWCB-PBD, Archinect.

Oct 7, 15 1:58 pm

kjdt,

I'm trying to complete the  Associates in Historic Preservation so that I have a degree (not just courses but a completed degree) in the subject area so I can market that besides my CAD. Add to that, the transcripts can be transmitted to California Architect Board so I would have an open file with them. I don't have any plans for a third associates degree.

Architecture & Historic preservation is in the realm of what my education and training is for.

Oct 7, 15 2:18 pm

kjdt,

Retiring? I am not even looking at retiring. I'd probably die at the drafting table. LOL!

Oct 7, 15 2:20 pm

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