"You don't need to..The place shown in Orhan's video is my hometown."
Oh really? And may I ask if you are of arab descent? And are any members of your family Muslim? Or are you, perhaps, of another faith?
Not that it really matters, but since you've made it such a strong point in your posts that you lived in a muslim country, perhaps this info is relevant to the discussion, just so we have some perspective on where your anti-muslim sentiments derive from.
And just to be fair, I am a secular atheist, raised as a Christian, born in Baghdad, Iraq.
"Oh really? And may I ask if you are of arab descent?" What does that have to do with the discussion,really?
"just so we have some perspective on where your anti-muslim sentiments derive from." I'm not anti-muslim.My criticism actually has to do with the religion,not the brainwashed people. I guess you didn't read my post carefully.If you did,you'd know where my "sentiments" were coming from.Also,read this: http://faithfreedom.org/content/islams-useful-idiots
I read it and I thought of you.How naive you are. :) I won't go any further because we're drifting away from the main discussion and I don't have time to waste arguing with ignorant people like you.
On another note,the Swiss government did not ban the construction of mosques so muslim people are free to practice their religion in their religious sanctuaries.What was banned was only the construction of the minarets.
and since your concern is gays and womens in the middle east, how about letting a gay woman have her say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg8i0C4hwBk
(keep in mind that this was apropos the 2006 israeli war on lebanon).
Paradox, you sound like you are completely full of shit. You can't just sum up the Muslim world in one generalization that only caters to your personal narrow-minded view.
I can personally guarantee you that you did not live there -- most racist islamophobes try to make that claim and it always ends up not being true. Take Daniel Pipes for instance.
Its hard to make an Argument for Advancing one's Culture [Islam], in it's purest form [minaret], to within another host culture [Switzerland], while at the same time arguing against that host culture's desire to preserve theirs......DUH! Preserving an established culture makes for a stronger argument than Advancing one!
Any precedent of intolerance should be seen where the minarets come from, and not by the Swiss.
This is a great website which helps illustrate the mindset of many Non-Muslim Europeans dealing with the Muslim Surge / Stealth Expansion: Gates of Vienna
"What does that have to do with the discussion,really?"
It is relevant because you claim to have lived in a Muslim country for 18 years but still harbor prejudices about Muslims and Islam that are most commonly attributed to persons outside the faith and who have spent very little time in a country with a predominantly Muslim population. So, by not revealing this you've basically confirmed that you are not an Arab, you don't have Muslim family members, and that you most likely come from a Christian or Jewish family.
I agree completely with Med that it sounds like you lied about the 18 years in Istanbul. You throw around a few basic Arabic words like 'haram' and you think your lie is convincing? Next paragraph you will probably use the word 'madrasah' with and claim that all the madrasah's you attended in your 18 years in Istanbul were breeding grounds for terrorism and anti-israeli sentiment.
Well, hey, I dont think we need to pile on. Paradox is on firm ground criticizing many predominantly muslim countries for inequalities toward women and really brutal intolerance toward gays. Just as I dont think you can criticize a person simply for being muslim, I dont think just being muslim makes one immune to criticism. The point here should be that making unprincipled arguments (or patently ludicrous ones) destroys ones credibility to make a principled stand on the the things that really matter.
Its also, once again, not true that "the first suicide bomber" was either jewish or muslim. Depending on how you count it, they were either Russian or Dutch. So hopefully we can end that (more or less meaningless) debate.
FP your article is bias because it trys to quid pro quo the comparison. You see Sadam killed 500,000 muslims of Persian and Kurdistan so a war to remove himself cost muslim lives who many were defenders of the dictator then how can you compare honestly? Is it a fair comparison?
personally i having no problems with people being killed, muslims or otherwise. one way or another people are going to die. what's another 100,000 dead here or there really going to matter?
but i still don't like the idea of minarets in switzerland. that is not something that i want to see...and apparently most swiss people agree.
oe...I in no way believe that Islam or predominantly Muslim countries are immune to criticism. That's not at all what I've been saying or insinuating in my responses. We all know there is a lot to be criticized with regards to civil liberties of all varieties in Muslim countries. Just as there are in non-muslim countries. But when the discussion becomes an attack on all Muslims, then there needs to be a response which shows that Christian and Jewish actions across the globe are equally (if not more) violent and should be equally criticized. That did not happen here.
I already mentioned that I'm a secular atheist. I'm completely neutral in this regard. I think all religions are the root of our global problems, including Islam. But there has been a public campaign by Christian conservatives and pro-Israelis' to smear Muslims as if they are more violent and more looney than other religious persons...and they do so to justify limiting Muslim's civil rights...and furthermore justify bombing their countries to the stone age...and they sanction and economically strangle them. It is a grave injustice.
And the reason why I think it is relevant to discuss the background of Paradoxx is because it reveals how his/her prejudices emerged. Is Paradoxx a Zionist? Is s/he pro-Israeli? Are his/her family members Christian missionaries? I have a perspective based on my life experience...and Paradoxx has one based on his/hers. The difference is that I don't justify my perspective by lying about my life experiences. And I also don't make gross generalizations about peoples.
Regarding the suicide bomber...I realize there have been suicide attacks throughout history, in various forms. But the significance of Sima Fleishhaker-Hoizman is that Arabs are routinely blamed for bringing the suicide bomb into modern warfare, especially in Israel & the Occupied Palestinian Territories. So, no, I do not think it is a meaningless debate...The debate is about removing stereotypes about Muslims and Arabs, which is exactly the point of my post. I am, however, curious to know which conflict Russians and/or the Dutch employed the suicide bomb.
"Just as I dont think you can criticize a person simply for being muslim, I dont think just being muslim makes one immune to criticism."
Totally agree.Muslims are not very fond of being criticized though.
"It is relevant because you claim to have lived in a Muslim country for 18 years but still harbor prejudices about Muslims and Islam that are most commonly attributed to persons outside the faith and who have spent very little time in a country with a predominantly Muslim population. So, by not revealing this you've basically confirmed that you are not an Arab, you don't have Muslim family members, and that you most likely come from a Christian or Jewish family.
I agree completely with Med that it sounds like you lied about the 18 years in Istanbul. You throw around a few basic Arabic words like 'haram' and you think your lie is convincing? Next paragraph you will probably use the word 'madrasah' with and claim that all the madrasah's you attended in your 18 years in Istanbul were breeding grounds for terrorism and anti-israeli sentiment.
Urgh...such a waste of time."
Yes I was born in Istanbul and lived there until I was 19 then I moved here. I have my passport here to prove it but I don't disclose personal information here and I can' waste my time proving that to worthless, naive, brainwashed idiots like you. Can't you just get into your very thick skull that MAYBE the reason I have bitterness for that is because I lived IN it? Haven't you heard of Irshad Manji? Go get some information about her but I'm sure you must heard of Salman Rushdie,the novelist. He wrote the Satanic Verses,mainly a fiction book(but more than a fiction book) which actually criticizes Mohammad and now he is residing on England because Khomeini issued a fatwa on him,if he enters the Islamic lands,he will be beheaded! I went to a discussion between Irshad Manji and Rushdie and here is what they had to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc60ro81dIw
Take your precious time to watch it.
First of all FP,I'm from Istanbul so that makes me Turkish.I'm pure Turkish.Arabic people don't live in Turkey and Turkish people are NOT middle easterners.I see so many Americans confuse Arabs with Turkish people and some of them have never even heard of the country let alone know where it is on the map. My family is muslim (not so much my parents because they know it is a bullshit religion also).So yes,I've spent 18 years of my life in a muslim environment and I WAS a muslim until my father raised a curiosity in me to read the Koran. Well..after I read it I realized everything.Most muslim people themselves don't know what the Koran says!(They don't like reading a lot) You can't possibly argue about that with me because I've read countless books on the subject and I read about Mohammad's life.
We use haram in Turkey also,it comes from Arabic and we have lots of Arabic words in our language since they raped our ancestors in the past and "mixed in". Also, madrasah is of Arabic origin. It means "religious school".The modern term for school in Turkish is "okul".Go educate your yourself.
I'm non-religious but I believe in god. Istanbul weren't a breeding ground for terrorism.Turkish people are the ONLY muslim population who have a secular government but the new religious government (AKP) is trying to take us hundreds of years back to go back to being an Islamic state. We have mosques almost in 5 blocks and not enough schools. We have religion but not spirituality.Honor killings galore in the country.They are trying to get rid of every good thing Ataturk left to us: a secular government, freedom (from speech to clothing) and an open mind. Turkish people are not terrorists nor are lots other of muslims. Even muslims themselves are uneducated about Islam so it is normal for you to be completely CLUELESS about it. Do me a favor and do not write one post insulting me before taking a look at Koran and seeing what it says and read articles about it. I don't talk to ignorant people trying to be politically correct aka useful IDIOTS.
Im not sure an ad-homonym attack on Paradox's background is really your best argument, and to me accusing religion of being the root of all conflict isnt really founded, (between Stalin and Mao atheists have probably killed more people than all the religious nuts put together), but I think we mostly agree on the rest.
I hear the neighborhood church bells every Sunday morning, on religious holidays, and when someone gets married. I like it, and I never confuse the steeple for a penis.
oe - stalin & mao exploited a credulous population & system (the credulity having been established & reinforced by irrational religious belief) and furthermore, they did not commit those acts in the name of atheism.
Paradoxx...I happily apologize to you about calling you a liar about your time in Istanbul. I don't know you at all, so I cannot make that claim. It just seemed suspicious to me for reasons I already outlined.
But I still don't understand the information you've given. First you say that being a Muslim or Arab is not relevant. Then you reveal that your family was Muslim and that even you were once a Muslim? Why would you not include that as part of your original arguments? Does that not add more credibility to your argument? And in your first post you talk about how Muslims are a 'threat'. That they breed 3+ children at a time...insinuating that you belive we should stop them from procreating. That they differ from other human beings. Sorry, but your perspective is rooted in propaganda and stereotypes, which is exactly why I questioned your credibility.
Then you say that you are not religious but you believe in God. How is that possible? If you believe in God you are, by definition, a religious person. Am I missing something here?
And yes...I do know the language of Turkey. And I also know many Turks say they are not middle easterners, but geographically, there are lineages within the middle east...and all maps that I know of include Turkey as part of the middle east. There is a very pompous belief that middle easterners are in some way less civilized than Europeans, Asians, Westerners, etc...which is not what the Turks wish to be associated with. Surely being European or far-eastern is more civilized, eh?
I am not surprised by your perspective though, especially if you admire the work of Irshad Manji. She is a tool for conservatives. I have seen her on other debates (with As'ad Abukhalil) and I find her completely moronic. She is by no means a scholar as far as I'm concerned, and I have no desire to read her book. I already know what she has to say and will never adopt her perspectives.
Sorry, I have absolutely no desire to meet with you, or to argue in person about whether minarets should be banned or whether all Muslims are inherently violent and fanatics. You can keep reading your apologist authors and accumulating propaganda by yourself. I think I'll survive just fine without another pointless debate where neither party budges. I'm sure you feel the same.
If you're not full of shit regarding your 18 years in Istanbul, you're still full of shit with respect to 99% of everything else you said. I honestly don't care whether or not you did live there...your opinions about Muslims are still completely ignorant and, dare I say it, worth no more than a pile of shit. Sorry...gotta call a spade a spade.
Man guys. This is a bit silly right? Ive known people who grew up muslim and turned on a lot of it in college. Its not that improbable.
oe - stalin & mao exploited a credulous population & system (the credulity having been established & reinforced by irrational religious belief) and furthermore, they did not commit those acts in the name of atheism.
Really? I think they were exploiting people with extraordinarily rational, anti-religious arguments. About social justice for the oppressed masses, moving into a glorious new era beyond superstition and irrational belief? They were just lying about who was actually gonna benefit from it.
turkey is in the middle east therefore it is middle eastern. cyprus and "israel" are also middle eastern countries. or do you hate the region (because, more than anything, Parad0xx86, your posts are fuller of hatred than sense)
so much you want to relocate turkey to scandinavia?
don't you belly dance and eat kebabs?
and i believe that it is you who fucked us for centuries before the french took over....Parad0xx86
....86? is that 1986, your year of birth? maybe in a decade, you'll learn to unhate it out of your system.
Come on guys,you should be able to do better than this..I mean you're telling me I'm full of dogshit and bullshit but you're unable to tell me WHY I'm wrong.Can't you as educated people disprove my arguments with logic and sound evidence? Or are you just too lazy to research? Back up your arguments with proof so that I can take you seriously. "You're such an ignorant person who is full of shit is very weak and childish. :)
Dear Fondue,I'm aware they don't teach much geography in US but you should at least take a look at the map before saying ridiculous things.Turkey is not in middle east,it stretches between Europe and Asia.It basically makes the southeastern Europe and southwestern Asia.It consists Anatolian region,a part of eastern Thrace and a small part of Europe. Your ignorance astounds me.Belly dance and shish kabob..is that how you explain the entire nation? And what did you mean when you said we fucked you before the French took over? Our nation's motto is 'Peace at home,peace at world". I guess when you mentioned we fucking you(whoever that is..) you were talking about the Ottoman Folks..Newsflash darling,the Islamic Ottoman Empire was thrown over a century ago and now we have the modern republic of Turkey thanks to Ataturk and you're defending those people similar to Islamic Ottoman guys,I seriously doubt your IQ level now..
Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. It is pointless. I agree with oe. This argument devolved into a petty war of words. An I fell for your troll trap. Truth is, nothing we say will get through to you, so there is no point. So, there is no need to continue trying to reason with you.
You call Fondue ignorant about geography, yet you do not even realize that your so-called homeland of Istanbul is in the middle east. If you want facts, I'll give them to you right here and here and here, etc. It sounds like you don't even realize the middle east is a part of Asia. This is very basic stuff.
So you see...this is yet another reason why I don't believe you lived in Turkey. How is it possible for one to live in a country for 18 years and not even know the basics of its geography? A bit suspicious if you ask me.
and Parad0xx86, i clearly indicated my not being american quite a few times now. perhaps, your concern should be over your own IQ level than mine. i know exactly where turkey is. you're the neighbours of our neighbours. carry on.
the article suggests that they are afraid of a surge in militant islam, which would threaten their position of neutrality in international conflict. given the history of islamic culture, it isn't too far fetched to say that allowing minarets to be built could possibly bring violence and instability.
Turkey is not in the middle east,it is in the near east.Get your facts right. Turkey has been part of Europe since the 14th century(whether Europeans like it or not..) and traditionally not a part of the middle east (though Arabs are in denial about that).Originally Turks come from Central Asia. I know my history,thanks!
"If you're not full of shit regarding your 18 years in Istanbul, you're still full of shit with respect to 99% of everything else you said."
Speaking so elegantly like that you can't expect people to reason with you. I'd also like to remind you that it was YOU who started this argument by copying my post and making only minor changes. Perhaps it is you who the troll is.
And Fondue..I don't see where in this thread you mentioned you're not from US.You mentioned you lived in Jeddah but I don't know if you were born there or grew up there or just lived there for a short time and I didn't read your other posts in other threads so I don't know where you are from.
Before I finish my post I'd like to share this very nice passage from Koran: "O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people." - sura 5:54
Parad0xx86, it is understandable you don't like your own culture,
but, why do you want other people also to hate your culture or why do you want other people to agree with your "self-hatred"?
Is it because you want "the rest of the world" to agree that the reason you hate your culture is that is wrong but not you?
Maybe both of you and your culture aren't wrong, but a little bit different...
In Italy, for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had 500 years of democracy and peace - and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.-Harry Lime
While the Netherlands had close to 40 years of government-backed policy geared towards high-density and compact urban development, the people in the Netherlands have taken to suburbanization rather radically.
While a portion of the population views suburbanism as a mostly positive experience, it usually an indicator of some sort of general issue or condition with society that one is distancing itself from physically.
Where as America is a little more loud and perhaps ostentatious about the social conditions that lead to development patterns of the 20th century, other countries such as the Netherlands are much quieter about it.
It's a phenomenon I like to refer to as "une division des menottes."
A division of tiny hands. The 'tiny hands' being the various experiences and personal preferences that aren't necessarily motivated by logic.
If you talk to any typical dutch person when they are around other gentiles and off the record, their opinions of the "muslim invasion" make you wonder if they died and were reincarnated in South Carolina.
There's stylistic and comfort concerns too as well.
It's not to say that building minarets would bring violence but they will repulse people away and lead to the physical divisions of cities and neighborhoods-- especially when so many people seem to have opinions about it.
Switzerland is just basically starting to go through what France and the Netherlands have been dealing with for two decades.
the idea that there is such a thing as a pure or ethnically singular state anymore is ridiculous--certainly European countries are more homogenous than the US in this respect, but this has always been in flux, and in an increasingly integrated world, this will continue to be in flux and the boundaries of ethnicities, race, religion, culture and so forth will blur and overlap more and more. Pluralism is the future of every country, even one as historically insular as Switzerland. Better to embrace it than attempt to reject it. Culture, states and demographics have never been static.
As I previously said, your insistence that Turkey is NOT designated as part of the middle east is linked to a Eurocentric desire not to be linked to arab states. It is ridiculous. Look here. Note that the "near east" INCLUDES middle eastern states!
Additionally, I should note that the term "Near East" is an outdated designation that refers to historical and archeological contexts. Read the whole link above.
Also, you sent some international Wiki version of the "greater middle east" map, which is actually something Bush initiated. See this for an explanation. If you do an image search for maps of "greater middle east" they all include Turkey!
You can argue this all you want, but if I do a Google image search for "middle east" every single map that comes back includes Turkey. What is your response to this? Is it just a huge conspiracy? I don't understand why you want to fight this fight. It's such a silly one.
"I'd also like to remind you that it was YOU who started this argument by copying my post and making only minor changes. Perhaps it is you who the troll is."
My point was that Christians and Jews can just as easily fit every single criticism you made about Muslims in your post. I don't understand why you consider this so offensive.
You quoted "the Koran" regarding Jews and Christians going to hell. But you quoted a translation made by conservative Christians and Jews that in an attempt to slander the Koran and make it appear more vitriolic than Christianity or Judaism ? The official English translation is:
"O you who believe, if you revert from your religion, then GOD will substitute in your place people whom He loves and who love Him. They will be kind with the believers, stern with the disbelievers, and will strive in the cause of GOD without fear of any blame. Such is GOD's blessing; He bestows it upon whomever He wills. GOD is Bounteous, Omniscient."
Not that I like this version either (or any other scripture in the Koran or Bibles), but it is no worse than many verses in the bible. And is this any different than Judaism's claim to being the chosen people? Please, stop pulling up mis-translations from anti-muslim sites and quoting them like they're official.
Maybe, Paradoxx's argument is reflexting somehow complex Turkish identities.
As all we know, Turk is ethnically close to "Korean-Mongolian" or "Mongolian-Korean".
However, as they had immigrated into the west, they have changed their cultures and identities into sometimes "Islamics" and sometimes "Christians". And now they are trying to fit into the "European culture".
As a Turk, Paradoxx's denial about Islamic culture which was his previous culture and religion might reflect sorts of these identity changes.
almost 100 posts on this topic now and still nobody has admitted that they actually want to see minarets in switzerland.
this is really a non-issue. the swiss don't want minarets and nobody else wants to see minarets in switzerland. a ban on them seems perfectly reasonable and not worth the criticism it's been receiving.
I support the ban! At least muslims can still build mosques! Whoever ia against the ban, ask yourself, is there even one church in Saudi Arabia like there is a mosque in a Vatican? Are you aware that churches in the gulf region are not allowed to have crosses on their spires or domes? Churches require a presidential approval in Egypt? I am glad that the Swiss are waking up.. it's time for the rest of Europe and the West to do the same.
Swiss Minaret Ban
"I'm not gonna waste my time schooling you on Islam or Muslim culture"
You don't need to..The place shown in Orhan's video is my hometown.
Thanks.
"You don't need to..The place shown in Orhan's video is my hometown."
Oh really? And may I ask if you are of arab descent? And are any members of your family Muslim? Or are you, perhaps, of another faith?
Not that it really matters, but since you've made it such a strong point in your posts that you lived in a muslim country, perhaps this info is relevant to the discussion, just so we have some perspective on where your anti-muslim sentiments derive from.
And just to be fair, I am a secular atheist, raised as a Christian, born in Baghdad, Iraq.
"Oh really? And may I ask if you are of arab descent?" What does that have to do with the discussion,really?
"just so we have some perspective on where your anti-muslim sentiments derive from." I'm not anti-muslim.My criticism actually has to do with the religion,not the brainwashed people. I guess you didn't read my post carefully.If you did,you'd know where my "sentiments" were coming from.Also,read this: http://faithfreedom.org/content/islams-useful-idiots
I read it and I thought of you.How naive you are. :) I won't go any further because we're drifting away from the main discussion and I don't have time to waste arguing with ignorant people like you.
On another note,the Swiss government did not ban the construction of mosques so muslim people are free to practice their religion in their religious sanctuaries.What was banned was only the construction of the minarets.
and since your concern is gays and womens in the middle east, how about letting a gay woman have her say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg8i0C4hwBk
(keep in mind that this was apropos the 2006 israeli war on lebanon).
Yes that is one of my concerns..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjrvi5_MP_Q
Paradox, you sound like you are completely full of shit. You can't just sum up the Muslim world in one generalization that only caters to your personal narrow-minded view.
I can personally guarantee you that you did not live there -- most racist islamophobes try to make that claim and it always ends up not being true. Take Daniel Pipes for instance.
Its hard to make an Argument for Advancing one's Culture [Islam], in it's purest form [minaret], to within another host culture [Switzerland], while at the same time arguing against that host culture's desire to preserve theirs......DUH! Preserving an established culture makes for a stronger argument than Advancing one!
Any precedent of intolerance should be seen where the minarets come from, and not by the Swiss.
This is a great website which helps illustrate the mindset of many Non-Muslim Europeans dealing with the Muslim Surge / Stealth Expansion: Gates of Vienna
"What does that have to do with the discussion,really?"
It is relevant because you claim to have lived in a Muslim country for 18 years but still harbor prejudices about Muslims and Islam that are most commonly attributed to persons outside the faith and who have spent very little time in a country with a predominantly Muslim population. So, by not revealing this you've basically confirmed that you are not an Arab, you don't have Muslim family members, and that you most likely come from a Christian or Jewish family.
I agree completely with Med that it sounds like you lied about the 18 years in Istanbul. You throw around a few basic Arabic words like 'haram' and you think your lie is convincing? Next paragraph you will probably use the word 'madrasah' with and claim that all the madrasah's you attended in your 18 years in Istanbul were breeding grounds for terrorism and anti-israeli sentiment.
Urgh...such a waste of time.
Puddles, Paradoxx, and Swiss Cheese,
You may also want to read this.
...and for some reason all we ever hear is that Muslims are the violent ones. Very interesting, no?
Well, hey, I dont think we need to pile on. Paradox is on firm ground criticizing many predominantly muslim countries for inequalities toward women and really brutal intolerance toward gays. Just as I dont think you can criticize a person simply for being muslim, I dont think just being muslim makes one immune to criticism. The point here should be that making unprincipled arguments (or patently ludicrous ones) destroys ones credibility to make a principled stand on the the things that really matter.
Its also, once again, not true that "the first suicide bomber" was either jewish or muslim. Depending on how you count it, they were either Russian or Dutch. So hopefully we can end that (more or less meaningless) debate.
FP your article is bias because it trys to quid pro quo the comparison. You see Sadam killed 500,000 muslims of Persian and Kurdistan so a war to remove himself cost muslim lives who many were defenders of the dictator then how can you compare honestly? Is it a fair comparison?
personally i having no problems with people being killed, muslims or otherwise. one way or another people are going to die. what's another 100,000 dead here or there really going to matter?
but i still don't like the idea of minarets in switzerland. that is not something that i want to see...and apparently most swiss people agree.
oe...I in no way believe that Islam or predominantly Muslim countries are immune to criticism. That's not at all what I've been saying or insinuating in my responses. We all know there is a lot to be criticized with regards to civil liberties of all varieties in Muslim countries. Just as there are in non-muslim countries. But when the discussion becomes an attack on all Muslims, then there needs to be a response which shows that Christian and Jewish actions across the globe are equally (if not more) violent and should be equally criticized. That did not happen here.
I already mentioned that I'm a secular atheist. I'm completely neutral in this regard. I think all religions are the root of our global problems, including Islam. But there has been a public campaign by Christian conservatives and pro-Israelis' to smear Muslims as if they are more violent and more looney than other religious persons...and they do so to justify limiting Muslim's civil rights...and furthermore justify bombing their countries to the stone age...and they sanction and economically strangle them. It is a grave injustice.
And the reason why I think it is relevant to discuss the background of Paradoxx is because it reveals how his/her prejudices emerged. Is Paradoxx a Zionist? Is s/he pro-Israeli? Are his/her family members Christian missionaries? I have a perspective based on my life experience...and Paradoxx has one based on his/hers. The difference is that I don't justify my perspective by lying about my life experiences. And I also don't make gross generalizations about peoples.
Regarding the suicide bomber...I realize there have been suicide attacks throughout history, in various forms. But the significance of Sima Fleishhaker-Hoizman is that Arabs are routinely blamed for bringing the suicide bomb into modern warfare, especially in Israel & the Occupied Palestinian Territories. So, no, I do not think it is a meaningless debate...The debate is about removing stereotypes about Muslims and Arabs, which is exactly the point of my post. I am, however, curious to know which conflict Russians and/or the Dutch employed the suicide bomb.
"Just as I dont think you can criticize a person simply for being muslim, I dont think just being muslim makes one immune to criticism."
Totally agree.Muslims are not very fond of being criticized though.
"It is relevant because you claim to have lived in a Muslim country for 18 years but still harbor prejudices about Muslims and Islam that are most commonly attributed to persons outside the faith and who have spent very little time in a country with a predominantly Muslim population. So, by not revealing this you've basically confirmed that you are not an Arab, you don't have Muslim family members, and that you most likely come from a Christian or Jewish family.
I agree completely with Med that it sounds like you lied about the 18 years in Istanbul. You throw around a few basic Arabic words like 'haram' and you think your lie is convincing? Next paragraph you will probably use the word 'madrasah' with and claim that all the madrasah's you attended in your 18 years in Istanbul were breeding grounds for terrorism and anti-israeli sentiment.
Urgh...such a waste of time."
Yes I was born in Istanbul and lived there until I was 19 then I moved here. I have my passport here to prove it but I don't disclose personal information here and I can' waste my time proving that to worthless, naive, brainwashed idiots like you. Can't you just get into your very thick skull that MAYBE the reason I have bitterness for that is because I lived IN it? Haven't you heard of Irshad Manji? Go get some information about her but I'm sure you must heard of Salman Rushdie,the novelist. He wrote the Satanic Verses,mainly a fiction book(but more than a fiction book) which actually criticizes Mohammad and now he is residing on England because Khomeini issued a fatwa on him,if he enters the Islamic lands,he will be beheaded! I went to a discussion between Irshad Manji and Rushdie and here is what they had to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc60ro81dIw
Take your precious time to watch it.
First of all FP,I'm from Istanbul so that makes me Turkish.I'm pure Turkish.Arabic people don't live in Turkey and Turkish people are NOT middle easterners.I see so many Americans confuse Arabs with Turkish people and some of them have never even heard of the country let alone know where it is on the map. My family is muslim (not so much my parents because they know it is a bullshit religion also).So yes,I've spent 18 years of my life in a muslim environment and I WAS a muslim until my father raised a curiosity in me to read the Koran. Well..after I read it I realized everything.Most muslim people themselves don't know what the Koran says!(They don't like reading a lot) You can't possibly argue about that with me because I've read countless books on the subject and I read about Mohammad's life.
We use haram in Turkey also,it comes from Arabic and we have lots of Arabic words in our language since they raped our ancestors in the past and "mixed in". Also, madrasah is of Arabic origin. It means "religious school".The modern term for school in Turkish is "okul".Go educate your yourself.
I'm non-religious but I believe in god. Istanbul weren't a breeding ground for terrorism.Turkish people are the ONLY muslim population who have a secular government but the new religious government (AKP) is trying to take us hundreds of years back to go back to being an Islamic state. We have mosques almost in 5 blocks and not enough schools. We have religion but not spirituality.Honor killings galore in the country.They are trying to get rid of every good thing Ataturk left to us: a secular government, freedom (from speech to clothing) and an open mind. Turkish people are not terrorists nor are lots other of muslims. Even muslims themselves are uneducated about Islam so it is normal for you to be completely CLUELESS about it. Do me a favor and do not write one post insulting me before taking a look at Koran and seeing what it says and read articles about it. I don't talk to ignorant people trying to be politically correct aka useful IDIOTS.
Gerizekali cahiller..
Im not sure an ad-homonym attack on Paradox's background is really your best argument, and to me accusing religion of being the root of all conflict isnt really founded, (between Stalin and Mao atheists have probably killed more people than all the religious nuts put together), but I think we mostly agree on the rest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narodnaya_Volya_%28organization%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_van_Speijk
and much more importantly to my mind;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Tigers
FP I see you're in NY.If you want to argue about it let's go out and argue. Bring it on brother!
I hear the neighborhood church bells every Sunday morning, on religious holidays, and when someone gets married. I like it, and I never confuse the steeple for a penis.
oe - stalin & mao exploited a credulous population & system (the credulity having been established & reinforced by irrational religious belief) and furthermore, they did not commit those acts in the name of atheism.
we might as well chop down all church steeples and all other religious phallic symbols
Paradoxx...I happily apologize to you about calling you a liar about your time in Istanbul. I don't know you at all, so I cannot make that claim. It just seemed suspicious to me for reasons I already outlined.
But I still don't understand the information you've given. First you say that being a Muslim or Arab is not relevant. Then you reveal that your family was Muslim and that even you were once a Muslim? Why would you not include that as part of your original arguments? Does that not add more credibility to your argument? And in your first post you talk about how Muslims are a 'threat'. That they breed 3+ children at a time...insinuating that you belive we should stop them from procreating. That they differ from other human beings. Sorry, but your perspective is rooted in propaganda and stereotypes, which is exactly why I questioned your credibility.
Then you say that you are not religious but you believe in God. How is that possible? If you believe in God you are, by definition, a religious person. Am I missing something here?
And yes...I do know the language of Turkey. And I also know many Turks say they are not middle easterners, but geographically, there are lineages within the middle east...and all maps that I know of include Turkey as part of the middle east. There is a very pompous belief that middle easterners are in some way less civilized than Europeans, Asians, Westerners, etc...which is not what the Turks wish to be associated with. Surely being European or far-eastern is more civilized, eh?
I am not surprised by your perspective though, especially if you admire the work of Irshad Manji. She is a tool for conservatives. I have seen her on other debates (with As'ad Abukhalil) and I find her completely moronic. She is by no means a scholar as far as I'm concerned, and I have no desire to read her book. I already know what she has to say and will never adopt her perspectives.
Sorry, I have absolutely no desire to meet with you, or to argue in person about whether minarets should be banned or whether all Muslims are inherently violent and fanatics. You can keep reading your apologist authors and accumulating propaganda by yourself. I think I'll survive just fine without another pointless debate where neither party budges. I'm sure you feel the same.
This paradox guy is completey full of dogshit.
Med...I completely agree. I have doubts about everything s/he says, despite my apology. But I thought I'd take the higher ground.
First of all I'm not a guy.Secondly,go eff yourself med and fp."Took the higher ground" you're both full of shit.
Also med and fp PROVE I'm wrong! Tell me HOW I'm full of shit,please and show evidence. I have proof for everything I say.
Paradox,
If you're not full of shit regarding your 18 years in Istanbul, you're still full of shit with respect to 99% of everything else you said. I honestly don't care whether or not you did live there...your opinions about Muslims are still completely ignorant and, dare I say it, worth no more than a pile of shit. Sorry...gotta call a spade a spade.
Man guys. This is a bit silly right? Ive known people who grew up muslim and turned on a lot of it in college. Its not that improbable.
oe - stalin & mao exploited a credulous population & system (the credulity having been established & reinforced by irrational religious belief) and furthermore, they did not commit those acts in the name of atheism.
Really? I think they were exploiting people with extraordinarily rational, anti-religious arguments. About social justice for the oppressed masses, moving into a glorious new era beyond superstition and irrational belief? They were just lying about who was actually gonna benefit from it.
turkey is in the middle east therefore it is middle eastern. cyprus and "israel" are also middle eastern countries. or do you hate the region (because, more than anything, Parad0xx86, your posts are fuller of hatred than sense)
so much you want to relocate turkey to scandinavia?
don't you belly dance and eat kebabs?
and i believe that it is you who fucked us for centuries before the french took over....Parad0xx86
....86? is that 1986, your year of birth? maybe in a decade, you'll learn to unhate it out of your system.
fondue, you don't exactly sound full of love either.
Hey, Islam... I'm sure we can talk this out and find some peace over a drink.
Oh, whoops!
Come on guys,you should be able to do better than this..I mean you're telling me I'm full of dogshit and bullshit but you're unable to tell me WHY I'm wrong.Can't you as educated people disprove my arguments with logic and sound evidence? Or are you just too lazy to research? Back up your arguments with proof so that I can take you seriously. "You're such an ignorant person who is full of shit is very weak and childish. :)
Dear Fondue,I'm aware they don't teach much geography in US but you should at least take a look at the map before saying ridiculous things.Turkey is not in middle east,it stretches between Europe and Asia.It basically makes the southeastern Europe and southwestern Asia.It consists Anatolian region,a part of eastern Thrace and a small part of Europe. Your ignorance astounds me.Belly dance and shish kabob..is that how you explain the entire nation? And what did you mean when you said we fucked you before the French took over? Our nation's motto is 'Peace at home,peace at world". I guess when you mentioned we fucking you(whoever that is..) you were talking about the Ottoman Folks..Newsflash darling,the Islamic Ottoman Empire was thrown over a century ago and now we have the modern republic of Turkey thanks to Ataturk and you're defending those people similar to Islamic Ottoman guys,I seriously doubt your IQ level now..
The small land bridge at Istanbul illustrates how disconnected turkey is from europe. west and north around Black sea is another divide. It's asia.
Paradoxx,
Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. It is pointless. I agree with oe. This argument devolved into a petty war of words. An I fell for your troll trap. Truth is, nothing we say will get through to you, so there is no point. So, there is no need to continue trying to reason with you.
You call Fondue ignorant about geography, yet you do not even realize that your so-called homeland of Istanbul is in the middle east. If you want facts, I'll give them to you right here and here and here, etc. It sounds like you don't even realize the middle east is a part of Asia. This is very basic stuff.
So you see...this is yet another reason why I don't believe you lived in Turkey. How is it possible for one to live in a country for 18 years and not even know the basics of its geography? A bit suspicious if you ask me.
ckl, neither full of hate nor full of love.
and Parad0xx86, i clearly indicated my not being american quite a few times now. perhaps, your concern should be over your own IQ level than mine. i know exactly where turkey is. you're the neighbours of our neighbours. carry on.
so much hate in this debate.
the article suggests that they are afraid of a surge in militant islam, which would threaten their position of neutrality in international conflict. given the history of islamic culture, it isn't too far fetched to say that allowing minarets to be built could possibly bring violence and instability.
1) http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosya:GreaterMiddleEast1.png
2) http://europa.eu/abc/european_countries/candidate_countries/turkey/index_en.htm
3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey
Turkey is not in the middle east,it is in the near east.Get your facts right. Turkey has been part of Europe since the 14th century(whether Europeans like it or not..) and traditionally not a part of the middle east (though Arabs are in denial about that).Originally Turks come from Central Asia. I know my history,thanks!
"If you're not full of shit regarding your 18 years in Istanbul, you're still full of shit with respect to 99% of everything else you said."
Speaking so elegantly like that you can't expect people to reason with you. I'd also like to remind you that it was YOU who started this argument by copying my post and making only minor changes. Perhaps it is you who the troll is.
And Fondue..I don't see where in this thread you mentioned you're not from US.You mentioned you lived in Jeddah but I don't know if you were born there or grew up there or just lived there for a short time and I didn't read your other posts in other threads so I don't know where you are from.
Before I finish my post I'd like to share this very nice passage from Koran: "O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people." - sura 5:54
Peace.
hey wtf? who put those minarets on our byzantine church?
Who Put that Basilica in my Minarets!?
Finally, an improvement in the Job Market!
Parad0xx86, it is understandable you don't like your own culture,
but, why do you want other people also to hate your culture or why do you want other people to agree with your "self-hatred"?
Is it because you want "the rest of the world" to agree that the reason you hate your culture is that is wrong but not you?
Maybe both of you and your culture aren't wrong, but a little bit different...
In Italy, for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had 500 years of democracy and peace - and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.-Harry Lime
^Kickass.
it isn't too far fetched to say that allowing minarets to be built could possibly bring violence and instability.
Fucking HOW???
Look at Amsterdam as an example.
While the Netherlands had close to 40 years of government-backed policy geared towards high-density and compact urban development, the people in the Netherlands have taken to suburbanization rather radically.
While a portion of the population views suburbanism as a mostly positive experience, it usually an indicator of some sort of general issue or condition with society that one is distancing itself from physically.
Where as America is a little more loud and perhaps ostentatious about the social conditions that lead to development patterns of the 20th century, other countries such as the Netherlands are much quieter about it.
It's a phenomenon I like to refer to as "une division des menottes."
A division of tiny hands. The 'tiny hands' being the various experiences and personal preferences that aren't necessarily motivated by logic.
If you talk to any typical dutch person when they are around other gentiles and off the record, their opinions of the "muslim invasion" make you wonder if they died and were reincarnated in South Carolina.
There's stylistic and comfort concerns too as well.
It's not to say that building minarets would bring violence but they will repulse people away and lead to the physical divisions of cities and neighborhoods-- especially when so many people seem to have opinions about it.
Switzerland is just basically starting to go through what France and the Netherlands have been dealing with for two decades.
the idea that there is such a thing as a pure or ethnically singular state anymore is ridiculous--certainly European countries are more homogenous than the US in this respect, but this has always been in flux, and in an increasingly integrated world, this will continue to be in flux and the boundaries of ethnicities, race, religion, culture and so forth will blur and overlap more and more. Pluralism is the future of every country, even one as historically insular as Switzerland. Better to embrace it than attempt to reject it. Culture, states and demographics have never been static.
Paradoxx,
As I previously said, your insistence that Turkey is NOT designated as part of the middle east is linked to a Eurocentric desire not to be linked to arab states. It is ridiculous. Look here. Note that the "near east" INCLUDES middle eastern states!
Additionally, I should note that the term "Near East" is an outdated designation that refers to historical and archeological contexts. Read the whole link above.
Also, you sent some international Wiki version of the "greater middle east" map, which is actually something Bush initiated. See this for an explanation. If you do an image search for maps of "greater middle east" they all include Turkey!
You can argue this all you want, but if I do a Google image search for "middle east" every single map that comes back includes Turkey. What is your response to this? Is it just a huge conspiracy? I don't understand why you want to fight this fight. It's such a silly one.
"I'd also like to remind you that it was YOU who started this argument by copying my post and making only minor changes. Perhaps it is you who the troll is."
My point was that Christians and Jews can just as easily fit every single criticism you made about Muslims in your post. I don't understand why you consider this so offensive.
You quoted "the Koran" regarding Jews and Christians going to hell. But you quoted a translation made by conservative Christians and Jews that in an attempt to slander the Koran and make it appear more vitriolic than Christianity or Judaism ? The official English translation is:
"O you who believe, if you revert from your religion, then GOD will substitute in your place people whom He loves and who love Him. They will be kind with the believers, stern with the disbelievers, and will strive in the cause of GOD without fear of any blame. Such is GOD's blessing; He bestows it upon whomever He wills. GOD is Bounteous, Omniscient."
Not that I like this version either (or any other scripture in the Koran or Bibles), but it is no worse than many verses in the bible. And is this any different than Judaism's claim to being the chosen people? Please, stop pulling up mis-translations from anti-muslim sites and quoting them like they're official.
Maybe, Paradoxx's argument is reflexting somehow complex Turkish identities.
As all we know, Turk is ethnically close to "Korean-Mongolian" or "Mongolian-Korean".
However, as they had immigrated into the west, they have changed their cultures and identities into sometimes "Islamics" and sometimes "Christians". And now they are trying to fit into the "European culture".
As a Turk, Paradoxx's denial about Islamic culture which was his previous culture and religion might reflect sorts of these identity changes.
almost 100 posts on this topic now and still nobody has admitted that they actually want to see minarets in switzerland.
this is really a non-issue. the swiss don't want minarets and nobody else wants to see minarets in switzerland. a ban on them seems perfectly reasonable and not worth the criticism it's been receiving.
haha!
No one can compete with you puds. Thats all.
thanks to the advent of modern technology, we are now able to explore the possibilities of minaret architecture in the swiss context:
I support the ban! At least muslims can still build mosques! Whoever ia against the ban, ask yourself, is there even one church in Saudi Arabia like there is a mosque in a Vatican? Are you aware that churches in the gulf region are not allowed to have crosses on their spires or domes? Churches require a presidential approval in Egypt? I am glad that the Swiss are waking up.. it's time for the rest of Europe and the West to do the same.
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