I am from Montreal, Canada. I was wondering if there was an "easy" way to become a licensed architect and a licensed engineer in either Quebec, Ontario or British Columbia. I am intending on getting a BEng, Civil and a MArch.
By "easy way", I mean "another path than doing a 3+ years internship for the architecture license and ANOTHER 3+ years internship for the engineering license"...
In both required internships, there must be some aspects that are very similar. Therefore, I am thinking that there might be a way to get credit for both licensing processes as I get experience in an architecture/engineering firm for SOME components of the architecture/engineering internships...
I hope I'm being clear! I'm currently trying to contact the OAQ and the OIQ (the Quebec professional orders for Architects and Engineers) to see if I can get an "official" answer. In the meanwhile, I'd like to have your impression on the matter. :)
Stephane (I hope I remember your name correctly), I do not know how P.eng record their hours for... or even if they require "internship" hours at all but what you should know is that to become a licensed architect, you cannot log intern hours until you've complete an M.Arch and work under the direct supervision of registered member and a 3rd party mentor . The minimum required hours to apply for license are the same in all Canadian Provinces and I seriously doubt that any of the main categories will accept hours under another profession... but, if the OAQ for example is like the OAA, they do check all submitted hours and often, they will call you during internship to clarify your log-book.
The "easiest" way would be to attempt to log your P.eng hours between degrees. Plan to take 2-4 years off to get that P.eng certification then take your M.arch. I know from experience that the Engineering talent pool is weak (at least in Ontario) and the construction industry needs good people... who knows how many millions my project would save if there were competent people to work with?
I digress, in short, no easy way. Professional licensing is a long process because it's like that they control the quality of those they license, if that makes any sense. The requirements for P.eng are not the same as a OAA, or OAQ architect and I would be surprised to see either discipline accept double dipping in the exp hours.
btw, 3 years for OAQ/OAA is the absolute minimum, most take 5+ years to complete the internship program. Keep this in mind because there are phases of projects which you need extensive experience in which are not often available to most interns. Office budgeting, spec writing, site supervisions, etc. You have to be one helluva good intern to get all that experience in the first 3 years (plus writing the exams and attending licensing courses too).
Easiest way is to get an accredited Architectural Engineering degree. I only know the US, but you can research at abet.org and make some calls. At OSU, it was still a 5 year degree that really only the 4th and 5th year changed focus from design studio to advanced structures. The advantage is with it, you can get both licenses. So after you graduate, you take the first half of the engineering license exam, find a job that has both licensed engineers and architects, and tailor your IDP program to meet the requirements of both licenses. When you finish the internship, you should be eligible to take both license exams.
In the US there is no way to get both licenses unless you complete both internships. IDP had a category in the past for related practices, which gave some overlap between the two fields, but was not counted as a full percentage point in architectural IDP.
I wouldn't try to find the "easy way" to get out of completing your internships in both fields if you plan to practice in both otherwise you will be at a major technical disadvantage in one or the other. As much as internships suck to complete, the time designation is there for a reason and especially in engineering because it is a matter of life safety and really learning the practice in a professional setting.
In addition, in the US, you have to get licensed PEs to sign for you to sit for your own PE exam. As you know, engineers are way more "by the book" than architects, and they will not just sign for your exam if they believe you to be a liability to the discipline and practice. You might also want to look into the NCEES, which is currently trying to pass a rule, that you have to have a masters degree in engineering, in addition to a completed internship before you can sit for your PE exam.
Non Sequiter, that's not quite true. There doesn't appear to be a Canadian school. CACB does however recognize and has accredited multiple US Schools of Architecture and their degrees. So, I looked up my sister's school KSU that offers a AE Degree, as does KU and Oklahoma. CACB recognizes all of them and I'm sure more (just looked up the ones I know have it since I almost went that route). My Dad is a licensed A/E btw.
But it'd be worth the call to be sure that particular A/E degree is accepted by CACB and whatever your engineering license board requires.
The dual licenses is a big bonus. How my Dad uses his... Smallish, typically light framed construction he'll engineer himself depending on size and whether he wants to or not. Always does it for the real small jobs where you need a beam or two or foundation changes. Everything else, we hire a real structural engineer; He understands his limitations and even though he could stamp a large commercial structure and engineer it, he chooses not to.
It also comes in handy challenging your structural engineer when they get conservative. And... it helped him when he was young and starting out; Single source solution for clients and employers. You'll pay more for that one guy who fills the roles of two. The design was also more flexible; If architecturally you changed your mind, it was easy enough to resize the structure to accommodate without having to worry about or sell it to a skiddish engineer... "Oh no! Lateral loads and custom beams my software can't do!!"
And to be honest, I see it as a more viable career path. Architects have sold the "we make it pretty" to well. Engineers stepped in and sold the "we make it work". Most clients aren't looking for a signature building... so they approach engineers more often and are kind of annoyed they have to have an architect (they don't value design as much as we'd like them too). It's easier to sell "You need a Engineer" than it is "Architect" now and these days.
mightyaa, Canada only has 10 or 11 schools where one can take a master's degree that is recognized if one wants to apply for intern architect status (and thus the first step necesairy before loging hours). I only linked to the CACB site and I did not bother to figure out what school the acronyms came from. Perhaps it varies from state to state, but in canada, where the OP says he intends on studying and working, such dual status is not a thing unless, as chigurh mentions, it is more likely that one must pursue both IDP independant from each other.
I know no-one ever who has "dual" license. Many start out in engineering than take a M.arch. They don't chase both professional titles. Perhaps it's a jurisdiction and I understand there are places more relaxed than others and perhaps this is where a less stringent 50/50 degree is acceptable.
p.s. That last paragraph of yours is subjective. I've seen in practice about 1 competent P.eng for every 8 worthless ones... also subjective on my part, but who is counting?
To be honest, I'm just trying to figure out now what path I am going to take in just a few years from now. I'm a first year civil engineering student, "interested in architecture, structural engineering, entrepreneurship and real estate" (as I state it on my CV). So I've got many options to choose from, or to combine; and that's exactly what I'm trying to do. However, in years from now, I don't think that I want to practice structural engineering as my day-to-day work; I like learning about it but I'm not really sure about working as an engineer for the rest of my life. Architecture is really what's it's all about, for me.
I still didn't get an answer from the OAQ and the OIQ, but I think that I already know the answer: there is no "easy way" to become a licensed architect and engineer, at least not in my situation. You guys are right.
I guess I'm in engineering right now to have a good, technically-oriented engineering background whenever I start my architecture career. Because yes, I would definitely choose to get my license to practice in architecture rather than engineering. I am excited for the upcoming semesters, when I'll have structural analysis courses and all the construction management courses (that I am taking as an option)... but after that, I'd go for the MArch and then start the long process of becoming a licensed architect. On another note, since I want to become financially independent as soon as possible (before 35-40 years old, hopefully earlier!), I'll have to rely on my real estate investments since young architects, well... typically don't make great money. I am currently working on getting an education on real estate investing, but Archinect is not really the place to talk about this.
Thanks again, and have a good one!
Oh, and nice talking to you again, Non Sequitur! (And yes, my name is Stéphane, glad you remembered!)
Easiest way to become licensed architect AND licensed engineer?
Hi Archinecters (?),
I am from Montreal, Canada. I was wondering if there was an "easy" way to become a licensed architect and a licensed engineer in either Quebec, Ontario or British Columbia. I am intending on getting a BEng, Civil and a MArch.
By "easy way", I mean "another path than doing a 3+ years internship for the architecture license and ANOTHER 3+ years internship for the engineering license"...
In both required internships, there must be some aspects that are very similar. Therefore, I am thinking that there might be a way to get credit for both licensing processes as I get experience in an architecture/engineering firm for SOME components of the architecture/engineering internships...
I hope I'm being clear! I'm currently trying to contact the OAQ and the OIQ (the Quebec professional orders for Architects and Engineers) to see if I can get an "official" answer. In the meanwhile, I'd like to have your impression on the matter. :)
Thank you!
Stephane (I hope I remember your name correctly), I do not know how P.eng record their hours for... or even if they require "internship" hours at all but what you should know is that to become a licensed architect, you cannot log intern hours until you've complete an M.Arch and work under the direct supervision of registered member and a 3rd party mentor . The minimum required hours to apply for license are the same in all Canadian Provinces and I seriously doubt that any of the main categories will accept hours under another profession... but, if the OAQ for example is like the OAA, they do check all submitted hours and often, they will call you during internship to clarify your log-book.
The "easiest" way would be to attempt to log your P.eng hours between degrees. Plan to take 2-4 years off to get that P.eng certification then take your M.arch. I know from experience that the Engineering talent pool is weak (at least in Ontario) and the construction industry needs good people... who knows how many millions my project would save if there were competent people to work with?
I digress, in short, no easy way. Professional licensing is a long process because it's like that they control the quality of those they license, if that makes any sense. The requirements for P.eng are not the same as a OAA, or OAQ architect and I would be surprised to see either discipline accept double dipping in the exp hours.
btw, 3 years for OAQ/OAA is the absolute minimum, most take 5+ years to complete the internship program. Keep this in mind because there are phases of projects which you need extensive experience in which are not often available to most interns. Office budgeting, spec writing, site supervisions, etc. You have to be one helluva good intern to get all that experience in the first 3 years (plus writing the exams and attending licensing courses too).
Easiest way is to get an accredited Architectural Engineering degree. I only know the US, but you can research at abet.org and make some calls. At OSU, it was still a 5 year degree that really only the 4th and 5th year changed focus from design studio to advanced structures. The advantage is with it, you can get both licenses. So after you graduate, you take the first half of the engineering license exam, find a job that has both licensed engineers and architects, and tailor your IDP program to meet the requirements of both licenses. When you finish the internship, you should be eligible to take both license exams.
I'd bet Canada has something similar.
Mightyaa, Canada does not have such joint programs... at least none that are recognized by our national accreditation board.
If you want to become a licensed architect in Canada, CACB must approve your education prior to becoming an intern architect.
They have a list of acceptable programs here:
http://www.cacb-ccca.ca/index.cfm?Voir=sections&Id=2789&M=1357&Repertoire_No=660386109
In the US there is no way to get both licenses unless you complete both internships. IDP had a category in the past for related practices, which gave some overlap between the two fields, but was not counted as a full percentage point in architectural IDP.
I wouldn't try to find the "easy way" to get out of completing your internships in both fields if you plan to practice in both otherwise you will be at a major technical disadvantage in one or the other. As much as internships suck to complete, the time designation is there for a reason and especially in engineering because it is a matter of life safety and really learning the practice in a professional setting.
In addition, in the US, you have to get licensed PEs to sign for you to sit for your own PE exam. As you know, engineers are way more "by the book" than architects, and they will not just sign for your exam if they believe you to be a liability to the discipline and practice. You might also want to look into the NCEES, which is currently trying to pass a rule, that you have to have a masters degree in engineering, in addition to a completed internship before you can sit for your PE exam.
Good luck.
Non Sequiter, that's not quite true. There doesn't appear to be a Canadian school. CACB does however recognize and has accredited multiple US Schools of Architecture and their degrees. So, I looked up my sister's school KSU that offers a AE Degree, as does KU and Oklahoma. CACB recognizes all of them and I'm sure more (just looked up the ones I know have it since I almost went that route). My Dad is a licensed A/E btw.
But it'd be worth the call to be sure that particular A/E degree is accepted by CACB and whatever your engineering license board requires.
The dual licenses is a big bonus. How my Dad uses his... Smallish, typically light framed construction he'll engineer himself depending on size and whether he wants to or not. Always does it for the real small jobs where you need a beam or two or foundation changes. Everything else, we hire a real structural engineer; He understands his limitations and even though he could stamp a large commercial structure and engineer it, he chooses not to.
It also comes in handy challenging your structural engineer when they get conservative. And... it helped him when he was young and starting out; Single source solution for clients and employers. You'll pay more for that one guy who fills the roles of two. The design was also more flexible; If architecturally you changed your mind, it was easy enough to resize the structure to accommodate without having to worry about or sell it to a skiddish engineer... "Oh no! Lateral loads and custom beams my software can't do!!"
And to be honest, I see it as a more viable career path. Architects have sold the "we make it pretty" to well. Engineers stepped in and sold the "we make it work". Most clients aren't looking for a signature building... so they approach engineers more often and are kind of annoyed they have to have an architect (they don't value design as much as we'd like them too). It's easier to sell "You need a Engineer" than it is "Architect" now and these days.
mightyaa, Canada only has 10 or 11 schools where one can take a master's degree that is recognized if one wants to apply for intern architect status (and thus the first step necesairy before loging hours). I only linked to the CACB site and I did not bother to figure out what school the acronyms came from. Perhaps it varies from state to state, but in canada, where the OP says he intends on studying and working, such dual status is not a thing unless, as chigurh mentions, it is more likely that one must pursue both IDP independant from each other.
I know no-one ever who has "dual" license. Many start out in engineering than take a M.arch. They don't chase both professional titles. Perhaps it's a jurisdiction and I understand there are places more relaxed than others and perhaps this is where a less stringent 50/50 degree is acceptable.
p.s. That last paragraph of yours is subjective. I've seen in practice about 1 competent P.eng for every 8 worthless ones... also subjective on my part, but who is counting?
Thank you all for you answer.
To be honest, I'm just trying to figure out now what path I am going to take in just a few years from now. I'm a first year civil engineering student, "interested in architecture, structural engineering, entrepreneurship and real estate" (as I state it on my CV). So I've got many options to choose from, or to combine; and that's exactly what I'm trying to do. However, in years from now, I don't think that I want to practice structural engineering as my day-to-day work; I like learning about it but I'm not really sure about working as an engineer for the rest of my life. Architecture is really what's it's all about, for me.
I still didn't get an answer from the OAQ and the OIQ, but I think that I already know the answer: there is no "easy way" to become a licensed architect and engineer, at least not in my situation. You guys are right.
I guess I'm in engineering right now to have a good, technically-oriented engineering background whenever I start my architecture career. Because yes, I would definitely choose to get my license to practice in architecture rather than engineering. I am excited for the upcoming semesters, when I'll have structural analysis courses and all the construction management courses (that I am taking as an option)... but after that, I'd go for the MArch and then start the long process of becoming a licensed architect. On another note, since I want to become financially independent as soon as possible (before 35-40 years old, hopefully earlier!), I'll have to rely on my real estate investments since young architects, well... typically don't make great money. I am currently working on getting an education on real estate investing, but Archinect is not really the place to talk about this.
Thanks again, and have a good one!
Oh, and nice talking to you again, Non Sequitur! (And yes, my name is Stéphane, glad you remembered!)
No problem Stephane. Keep your goals ahead of yourself and you'll figure it out as you trek along.
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