Archinect
anchor

Rules of thumb -- Working on the side

Veuxx

While working in a professional firm, what are some rules of thumb or advice when attempting to gain small projects on your own outside of your firm. 

My firm does very large hospitals, airports, university projects, and would not be interested in small home redesigns, etc.

 

Thanks

 
Jan 18, 14 5:59 pm
Atom

As for trying to get work when you haven't already got a client, that is luck. Every single entrepreneur that started an architectural practice that I have spoken with got the initial client on luck. You have to know them really well before they admit that because, obviously, we all want people to think it was hard work. The truth is, people were lucky to have a connection and be in the right part of town during a building boom. You can try all the nascent marketing methods you want. If you find those work, we'd enjoy reading about your success. I understand a person spending a giant sum of money on a building will commission you for other reasons than finding your banner addvertisement in a search result.    

Your pay draw is 1/3 of your billable. If you charge 75 you keep 25. That is a rule of thumb. Do not disclose to anyone in the office you have a lead on a client. They will turn informant on you. Do not disclose to your employer that you are working on the side. Don't ask if it is OK, don't tell them.  For the first tax year you need to see an accountant because you will have a business account and a personal account. I'll stop there. That is far enough. 

Jan 20, 14 1:56 am  · 
1  · 
boy in a well

amongst the young architects I know - a fair chunk got their first clients by stealing them from the firms they were previously working for . . .

Jan 20, 14 7:16 am  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

If your contract has a ban on moonlighting be prepared to be fired when they find out.

Jan 20, 14 8:55 am  · 
 · 
curtkram

like employment contract?  there are architects with employment contracts?

i've always seen 'at will' employment.  an employment contract would imply that if they wanted to fire you, they would have to buy you out of your contract. 

i would think in architecture it's more likely your boss can fire you for whatever reason they want, and moonlighting might be that reason.  offices often have policies that include either no moonlighting, or no moonlighting with clients that could be seen as competing against your firm.

if, as an example, your doing a residential addition and that's the sort of project your office wouldn't take, then they might not mind if their policy only prohibits direct competition.  on the other hand, if you end up somehow accidentally using a firm standard, letterhead, email, or something that even loosely ties your firm to that project, they might be concerned that they would be held liable in some respects should your project go wrong.  if something happened where insurance companies went after someone, they would want to go after your firm instead of you since the firm likely has more money for them to take, no matter how tenuous the relationship is.  because of that fear of liability, some firms will prohibit all moonlighting.

Jan 20, 14 9:29 am  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

Contract: a written or spoken agreement, esp. one concerning employment, sales, or tenancy, that is intended to be enforceable by law.

 

I was using it as a shorthand. If you're an "at will" employee, they don't NEED a reason to fire you.

Jan 20, 14 9:49 am  · 
 · 
MarvinOne

I've checked into this and found a couple of things.

1. While it might not hold up in court, if you get sued for something on your moonlighting project, the company might be held liable for it even if they didn't have knowledge of it. That's putting their hard earned license at risk and they didn't have anything to do with the project - do you want to do that to them?

2. Without experience, you can not get professional liability insurance, probably something good to have in our profession. Are you willing to risk everything you own?

3. Even if your project isn't in direct competition with those your firm works on, moonlighting is frowned upon because the employee will often be up late working on their own project, then not as productive on the company's project. Or they work on it during actual business hours. They expect you to give them your time and talents, it's what you're paid for.

4. My suggestion is that if you feel comfortable with it, talk to your employer and tell them of your opportunity. They may find a way to work with you on it. But only you can decide if that is a good idea. 

Jan 20, 14 10:03 am  · 
 · 
Atom

1. Common fear tactic. That is the man keeping you down. Does your employer keep you informed of the ventures they risk outside the firm? No. Don't tell them. Almost everything is at will these days.

2. E&O insurance, new license = $8,000 per year. Knock that number down with AIA membership and some risk reduction. 

3. Don't tell the employer. And, how do you think those fucking fuckers got started? A. Moonlighting or B. waiting until they had 10 years of a career left to buy the title of junior partner while the founder makes off with his stack of loot.  

4. If you are thick as thieves then you can have a meeting. If you are an at will wage slave cubicle operator and you go in divulging a good reason to get sent packing then see what that gets you but I advise against it. 

Jan 20, 14 3:08 pm  · 
1  · 
MarvinOne

Atom - I'm interested in learning about the E&O insurance you found. When I checked into it for a possible moonlighting project, the independent agent said they wouldn't even insure anyone without a certain amount of experience. It wasn't the cost that was the factor - they wouldn't even offer it to me. Just like most insurance, I'm guessing that it depends on your state. Based on the small amount I know about it, I think I live in a state where the insurance companies have architects under their thumb and control everything they do.

Jan 20, 14 4:37 pm  · 
 · 
mightyaa

#1 is real.  I had two cases I worked on like that.  Two slightly different scenarios. 

One was the straight forward moonlighting job.  He messed up, uninsured, so they pursued his employer making a case that he was under the supervision of this firm.

The second was really jacked.  Young architect who was flipping homes on the side.  Self-performing the drawings and the remodels.  Bragged about it at work.  Asked around for critiques and so forth amongst his peers.  Two of the flips sued him when they had major issues.  Again, he wasn't insured, so they sued his employer with the deep pockets.  And during the disclosure, found all the smoking guns...

I didn't like either case and told my lawyer so.  So I was simply replaced by some other expert.... I personally hate cases like that and would have preferred to be on the defense.

And in my firm, I don't allow moonlighting.  It's not so much the fear of liability; That's the excuse.  It has more to do with the idea that I'm bring in projects for the firm that I share with you and pay you to work on.  So it bothers me that if you land a project, you don't even consider bringing it into the firm.  It's a quick way to damage my loyalty and trust in you.  I simply start seeing you as my future competition rather than a potential successor or partner.  You put you first... So I mirror that and put the firm over you. 

Jan 20, 14 5:06 pm  · 
 · 
curtkram

'loyalty' is an interesting concept, in that it would typically have to go both ways to work.  same as 'respect.'  i don't know anything about your particular situation, but as a general philosophy, none of your employees are working for your profit.  they're working for their own profit.  there has to be a balance in there, between what  you give and what you take.  the current economy, and those who consider 'greed is good' to be a valid economic theory, doesn't seem to understand that.

if you said, 'i expect my employees to be loyal to me,' you are probably going to create a toxic environment where people don't perform well and would gladly stab you in the back should the opportunity arise.  on the other hand, if you said 'i would like to foster an environment of loyalty, where we all work together for everyone's gain,' you would have a whole team of people that wanted to succeed with you.

of course, you didn't say either.  this is just my broad philosophical take on how loyalty should work, since it seems to me to often be misunderstood and implemented poorly.

Jan 20, 14 5:37 pm  · 
1  · 
mightyaa

@curtkram

Don't disagree with you.  I don't demand loyalty.  Instead I go out of my way to create that environment through example.  It's really the little things, but it is unspoken.

I do somewhat disagree slightly with my employees not understanding they are working for the firm profit.  No one, including this firm, does it without making money.  I think everyone here is aware of this.  Most are also aware that my salary is artificially low; If the firm does good, I do good and visa-versa. 

Reminds me of an old architect joke:  Want to be a successful architect?  Marry rich...

Jan 21, 14 10:21 am  · 
 · 

Block this user


Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?

Archinect


This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.

  • ×Search in: