Here goes. So, this is about values and priorities of the profession in the US vs. Europe. see if you agree with me on this or not. This is neither an angry rant, nor a plea for help in despair, I simply want to bounce around a theory to see what others in the field might have to say about it.
A bit of a background: I'm originally from Europe myself, am presently an American Citizen and have lived in the US since the age of 15. I have worked in Architecture for the last 7 years, mostly full time, with the exception of 4 years when I was studying for a B.Arch. I left my last job at a big architecture firm to pursue an M.Arch II which is what I'm presently doing. I distinctly remember having the hardest time explaining to my colleagues as well as friends outside the field of architecture why I should want to leave a nice, reasonably steady job to pursue more education. As most of us here in the US know, in order to thrive and grow in architecture in the America what you need is a Bachelor degree and an Architecture license. Most of my ex-colleagues went this route and are doing quite well I think. All along, I felt completely certain about getting a master's degree because where I come from a Bachelor in Anything is quite rare, largely unheard of even. If you go to a uni, you come out with a Masters' degree and can rightfully call yourself whatever the profession the degree yields - like an Architect.
At work we did BIM. It was a large firm with many offices mostly doing Education + Healthcare kind of work. The way things worked at my firm was this: you got in with a B.Arch degree, and ideally begin doing IDP and eventually taking ARE's. We had all the resources in the world for this, from ARE study books to Actual monetary compensation for every test you passed. The company was genuinely interested in people with Stamps. And that's exactly what you became once you got your license - you got a pay hike, and a stamp with your name on it that you could use to stamp projects - which is mostly what you did from that point onwards. ...Well that, plus code compliance, and occasional sketching out of structural details to have us rookies draw up.
What it comes down to is this - Architectural profession in the US and continental Europe is different at its root. Europe comes from centuries of rich artistic tradition and it appears that appreciation for beautiful design or art is kind of in the genetics of most Europeans. A client, for instance, may be primarily interested in really good quality of built architectural space and would be willing to pay more for it, knowing that a Design Professional is at work and would do his/her best to assure a long lasting, unique and comfortable product. For this matter, it isn't uncommon in Europe to have an architect work exclusively on the design itself, and have things like construction documents, and all other stuff related to getting it built done externally by 'architect of record' type consulting firms, (can't recall who told me this, those who have experience working in Europe, feel free to chime in if I got this wrong).
In the US things are different - that isn't to say they're worse, it's really apples-to-oranges: The history of the United States is considerably shorter than that of most European nations and it is largely a self-made culture of mend and make do. America rightfully prides itself on being industrious, innovative, and most importantly - THRIFTY. Those of us who have worked in architecture here, know first hand that the most important part of doing a project is to COME IN UNDER BUDGET. If you can't do this - beware, Value Engineering awaits! Or take the familiar notion of the 'lowest bidder' in construction for instance. Anyways, everyone wants the most bang for their buck! We favor cheaper, pragmatic, familiar, more predictable commodities, especially mass-produced ones. This goes also for houses we live in, buildings where we work, and generally everything we build.
In the US, Architecture is first and foremost part of the Construction industry, where it largely is a matter of putting up a structure and doing it in the most efficient and cost effective way possible. Structures are built incredibly fast, but a lot less regard is given to architecture itself resulting in low quality space, facades, or even urban fabric at large. it's about efficient construction, meanwhile the function of the building itself with regards to occupants is usually kind of like a checklist of vents and light fixtures getting placed in every which way.
Meanwhile in Europe, Architecture as well as Design at large, is really considered somewhat of an Art. There, more design-conscious client demographic seems to have a certain level of trust and respect for a designer's talent as something that can produce for them beautiful things. They also don't mind paying more for all this.
With all this said, what do you think? Does someone who is interested not simply in getting buildings built, but rather in genuinely good design - be it a building, interior, furniture, or even cutlery - stand a chance at a decent living in the US? or is it more of the Old World phenomenon?
What about credentials - in the US: Are you better off with an B.Arch + M.Arch II or a B.Arch + Architecture License?
For those of you hailing from Europe - how well would someone with a B.Arch + M.Arch II from the US fare in the European Architecture/Design field?
Yes, Americans are cheap. So is the majority of architecture in America.
I was recently listening to an interview with artist David Koone, and he explained that most Americans are 'scared' when it comes to art, compared to euros. I would suggest that the word 'scared' should be replaced with 'cheapos'.
That comment is just as applicable to art as it is to architecture here.
I would say that most Americans just don't respect art/architecture like euros do. Art/architecture is just not important to most, even rich and/or well educated Americans.
As for education in architecture here, the best route is an accredited 5 year program, and then work and hope you can make a living off it (work towards becoming licensed), key word being 'hope'. I regret getting a master degree not because I wasn't working, I was, but because it was a scam to just take more money from me. The universities in America are stuffed full of old farty out-dated tenured professors, or young inexperienced adjunct teachers that have realized that they can make more pretending to teach, than actually working at the majority of dead-end jobs that are available, or the lack of available jobs in the real world.
As for Europe, I can't speak for what path is best when speaking of education, I can only speak of my observations here in the land of the free.
Forget industrious. And innovative only to the extent that another penny of profit can somehow be squeezed out of anything and everything. Appreciation only for financial return regardless of how it is achieved. Capitalism at its finest.
Our buildings are mostly utilitarian, however there are some great things scattered around. The typical American does not care about architecture. They only care about things like closet size and where they can store their Processed food supply. Same goes for cities. Cities are generally designed to accommodate a box truck wiping around a turn at 40mph. Little consideration goes into things like spatial experience for pedestrian. That would after all be socialism. Sarcasm. Architecture is a specialty here like foot fetishes and stamp collecting. It's an expensive luxury like custom hot rods. Europe IMHO has a much better way of looking at the profession. I always argue that architecture should be considered an art and should be deregulated. Anyway, the only downside to Europe is the horrible economy. Especially true in the south. My eye is set on Mexico. The economy is booming down there. They are replacing china in many areas of manufacturing. Great weather, rich history, great food....to bad the crime is still so high or I would make the move. Not as bad as the media hyped it up to be though. Most parts are actually very low compared to US.
Good thing about the us is that you have much more opportunity as a design/developer. The taxes in Europe are insane and the govt is a bunch of crooks in places like Spain. They change the rules on a daily basis. You really have very little protection as an investor/developer.
The tax thing is largely bullshit. By the time you add federal, state, local, sales and property taxes, and fees for things that that are often non-existent in Europe, US taxes are no bargain. (unless you are rich enough to avoid them). Especially when you consider that there is no socialed health care and that most of our money is spent on war and corporate wellfare. At least in Europe you get something for your taxes.
Jan 3, 14 1:16 pm ·
·
Forget all those fancy words like "capitalism" "democracy" "free markets" etc. America is a country of hustling.
Miles, it is true that you get more for your money in Europe, but for a business person, especially in real estate development, the taxes are a huge burden and your land rights are very limited. For instance, in Spain, if the bank forcloses on a property they can and do actually freeze all your property. All the loans are tied together. This basically makes it impossible to sell your assets to pay off others. Also whenever you transfer a property you have to pay a huge tax. Like 10%. That is usually 1/2 your profit. Not a big deal until the market crashes and that 10% makes your property 10% less valuable on top of whatever depreciation. They also tax your profit as income on top of that. Also, the rental business is horrible. You can't kick people out even if they don't pay. They could literally rub shit all over that walls and be a year without paying rent and the eviction process is ridiculously difficult.
The Euros appreciate their old buildings and went to great lengths to restore and rebuild them after World War II. The US was invaded by Le Corbusier and his ilk, who after failing to demolish and rebuild Paris for the Nazis with his "Radiant City", had better luck over here. Think of Corbu as Frank Gehry before his time.
Working on both sides of the pond I can say its much nicer to work in Europe. In Europe you have concepts such as flexible working hours, six weeks of vacation and in some countries 50% rebate on travel expenses. At the end of the day I have far more take home when working in Europe even though I was earning less plus you have a more relaxed lifestyle. Problem is it is very difficult to find a good paying job.
In North America architecture does not really exist. Yes there are design oriented practices but they are far and few between. There is just a building industry that is based on value engineering.
Miles, your land rights are not being limited by some utopian minded state for the betterment of humanity. That is a huge myth about Europe. Your rights are being limit by corrupt beurocratic slobs that are basically puppets for the bankers. The govt of spain is very corrupt as it is in the US. I know it's bad-worse hear in some respects, but you would be insane to get into the re investment/development business in Spain, Italy, etc.
Problem #1, individual ownership of land. Now there are haves and have-nots. Not because some people are better than others, or because some are more deserving than others, but simply because of the circumstances of their birth (e.g. Donald Trump).
Saint, I would have no problem paying taxes if I actually got something for them other than a police state to enforce corporate rule, endless war, a broken educational system, gmos in my food and no health care while I pay for every politician's and civil servant's retirement and benefits.
And if you want to talk about communisim, it would be helpful if you were more specific about particular aspects. There are many variants ranging from communisim to socialism and autocratic to social democratic.
Architectural profession, US / Europe, Masters degree / License and whatnot.
Here goes. So, this is about values and priorities of the profession in the US vs. Europe. see if you agree with me on this or not. This is neither an angry rant, nor a plea for help in despair, I simply want to bounce around a theory to see what others in the field might have to say about it.
A bit of a background: I'm originally from Europe myself, am presently an American Citizen and have lived in the US since the age of 15. I have worked in Architecture for the last 7 years, mostly full time, with the exception of 4 years when I was studying for a B.Arch. I left my last job at a big architecture firm to pursue an M.Arch II which is what I'm presently doing. I distinctly remember having the hardest time explaining to my colleagues as well as friends outside the field of architecture why I should want to leave a nice, reasonably steady job to pursue more education. As most of us here in the US know, in order to thrive and grow in architecture in the America what you need is a Bachelor degree and an Architecture license. Most of my ex-colleagues went this route and are doing quite well I think. All along, I felt completely certain about getting a master's degree because where I come from a Bachelor in Anything is quite rare, largely unheard of even. If you go to a uni, you come out with a Masters' degree and can rightfully call yourself whatever the profession the degree yields - like an Architect.
At work we did BIM. It was a large firm with many offices mostly doing Education + Healthcare kind of work. The way things worked at my firm was this: you got in with a B.Arch degree, and ideally begin doing IDP and eventually taking ARE's. We had all the resources in the world for this, from ARE study books to Actual monetary compensation for every test you passed. The company was genuinely interested in people with Stamps. And that's exactly what you became once you got your license - you got a pay hike, and a stamp with your name on it that you could use to stamp projects - which is mostly what you did from that point onwards. ...Well that, plus code compliance, and occasional sketching out of structural details to have us rookies draw up.
What it comes down to is this - Architectural profession in the US and continental Europe is different at its root. Europe comes from centuries of rich artistic tradition and it appears that appreciation for beautiful design or art is kind of in the genetics of most Europeans. A client, for instance, may be primarily interested in really good quality of built architectural space and would be willing to pay more for it, knowing that a Design Professional is at work and would do his/her best to assure a long lasting, unique and comfortable product. For this matter, it isn't uncommon in Europe to have an architect work exclusively on the design itself, and have things like construction documents, and all other stuff related to getting it built done externally by 'architect of record' type consulting firms, (can't recall who told me this, those who have experience working in Europe, feel free to chime in if I got this wrong).
In the US things are different - that isn't to say they're worse, it's really apples-to-oranges: The history of the United States is considerably shorter than that of most European nations and it is largely a self-made culture of mend and make do. America rightfully prides itself on being industrious, innovative, and most importantly - THRIFTY. Those of us who have worked in architecture here, know first hand that the most important part of doing a project is to COME IN UNDER BUDGET. If you can't do this - beware, Value Engineering awaits! Or take the familiar notion of the 'lowest bidder' in construction for instance. Anyways, everyone wants the most bang for their buck! We favor cheaper, pragmatic, familiar, more predictable commodities, especially mass-produced ones. This goes also for houses we live in, buildings where we work, and generally everything we build.
In the US, Architecture is first and foremost part of the Construction industry, where it largely is a matter of putting up a structure and doing it in the most efficient and cost effective way possible. Structures are built incredibly fast, but a lot less regard is given to architecture itself resulting in low quality space, facades, or even urban fabric at large. it's about efficient construction, meanwhile the function of the building itself with regards to occupants is usually kind of like a checklist of vents and light fixtures getting placed in every which way.
Meanwhile in Europe, Architecture as well as Design at large, is really considered somewhat of an Art. There, more design-conscious client demographic seems to have a certain level of trust and respect for a designer's talent as something that can produce for them beautiful things. They also don't mind paying more for all this.
With all this said, what do you think? Does someone who is interested not simply in getting buildings built, but rather in genuinely good design - be it a building, interior, furniture, or even cutlery - stand a chance at a decent living in the US? or is it more of the Old World phenomenon?
What about credentials - in the US: Are you better off with an B.Arch + M.Arch II or a B.Arch + Architecture License?
For those of you hailing from Europe - how well would someone with a B.Arch + M.Arch II from the US fare in the European Architecture/Design field?
Much obliged,
12
Yes, Americans are cheap. So is the majority of architecture in America.
I was recently listening to an interview with artist David Koone, and he explained that most Americans are 'scared' when it comes to art, compared to euros. I would suggest that the word 'scared' should be replaced with 'cheapos'.
That comment is just as applicable to art as it is to architecture here.
I would say that most Americans just don't respect art/architecture like euros do. Art/architecture is just not important to most, even rich and/or well educated Americans.
As for education in architecture here, the best route is an accredited 5 year program, and then work and hope you can make a living off it (work towards becoming licensed), key word being 'hope'. I regret getting a master degree not because I wasn't working, I was, but because it was a scam to just take more money from me. The universities in America are stuffed full of old farty out-dated tenured professors, or young inexperienced adjunct teachers that have realized that they can make more pretending to teach, than actually working at the majority of dead-end jobs that are available, or the lack of available jobs in the real world.
As for Europe, I can't speak for what path is best when speaking of education, I can only speak of my observations here in the land of the free.
Forget industrious. And innovative only to the extent that another penny of profit can somehow be squeezed out of anything and everything. Appreciation only for financial return regardless of how it is achieved. Capitalism at its finest.
Our buildings are mostly utilitarian, however there are some great things scattered around. The typical American does not care about architecture. They only care about things like closet size and where they can store their Processed food supply. Same goes for cities. Cities are generally designed to accommodate a box truck wiping around a turn at 40mph. Little consideration goes into things like spatial experience for pedestrian. That would after all be socialism. Sarcasm. Architecture is a specialty here like foot fetishes and stamp collecting. It's an expensive luxury like custom hot rods. Europe IMHO has a much better way of looking at the profession. I always argue that architecture should be considered an art and should be deregulated. Anyway, the only downside to Europe is the horrible economy. Especially true in the south. My eye is set on Mexico. The economy is booming down there. They are replacing china in many areas of manufacturing. Great weather, rich history, great food....to bad the crime is still so high or I would make the move. Not as bad as the media hyped it up to be though. Most parts are actually very low compared to US.
Good thing about the us is that you have much more opportunity as a design/developer. The taxes in Europe are insane and the govt is a bunch of crooks in places like Spain. They change the rules on a daily basis. You really have very little protection as an investor/developer.
The tax thing is largely bullshit. By the time you add federal, state, local, sales and property taxes, and fees for things that that are often non-existent in Europe, US taxes are no bargain. (unless you are rich enough to avoid them). Especially when you consider that there is no socialed health care and that most of our money is spent on war and corporate wellfare. At least in Europe you get something for your taxes.
Forget all those fancy words like "capitalism" "democracy" "free markets" etc. America is a country of hustling.
Miles, it is true that you get more for your money in Europe, but for a business person, especially in real estate development, the taxes are a huge burden and your land rights are very limited. For instance, in Spain, if the bank forcloses on a property they can and do actually freeze all your property. All the loans are tied together. This basically makes it impossible to sell your assets to pay off others. Also whenever you transfer a property you have to pay a huge tax. Like 10%. That is usually 1/2 your profit. Not a big deal until the market crashes and that 10% makes your property 10% less valuable on top of whatever depreciation. They also tax your profit as income on top of that. Also, the rental business is horrible. You can't kick people out even if they don't pay. They could literally rub shit all over that walls and be a year without paying rent and the eviction process is ridiculously difficult.
But on the other hand if you get sick here you are left to die.
the taxes are a huge burden and your land rights are very limited
You say it like that's a bad thing.
Ah, Miles... you're killing me.
The Euros appreciate their old buildings and went to great lengths to restore and rebuild them after World War II. The US was invaded by Le Corbusier and his ilk, who after failing to demolish and rebuild Paris for the Nazis with his "Radiant City", had better luck over here. Think of Corbu as Frank Gehry before his time.
Working on both sides of the pond I can say its much nicer to work in Europe. In Europe you have concepts such as flexible working hours, six weeks of vacation and in some countries 50% rebate on travel expenses. At the end of the day I have far more take home when working in Europe even though I was earning less plus you have a more relaxed lifestyle. Problem is it is very difficult to find a good paying job.
In North America architecture does not really exist. Yes there are design oriented practices but they are far and few between. There is just a building industry that is based on value engineering.
Miles, your land rights are not being limited by some utopian minded state for the betterment of humanity. That is a huge myth about Europe. Your rights are being limit by corrupt beurocratic slobs that are basically puppets for the bankers. The govt of spain is very corrupt as it is in the US. I know it's bad-worse hear in some respects, but you would be insane to get into the re investment/development business in Spain, Italy, etc.
Problem #1, individual ownership of land. Now there are haves and have-nots. Not because some people are better than others, or because some are more deserving than others, but simply because of the circumstances of their birth (e.g. Donald Trump).
Saint, I would have no problem paying taxes if I actually got something for them other than a police state to enforce corporate rule, endless war, a broken educational system, gmos in my food and no health care while I pay for every politician's and civil servant's retirement and benefits.
Sometimes I like Miles!
Man, you just hit like 6 or 7 of the 10 planks of communism in one post.
So you're a fan of plutocracy?
And if you want to talk about communisim, it would be helpful if you were more specific about particular aspects. There are many variants ranging from communisim to socialism and autocratic to social democratic.
and sometimes im just kinda, eh.
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