In New Jersey there are only two universities that have architectural education programs that legally allow a student to take exams and to become a licensed architect. The schools are: NJIT [ New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, NJ ] and Princeton University [ Princeton, NJ ].
There are a few other schools that have design, cad, and architecture courses, however, these are not approved and courses cannot be transferred to the two selected universities.
Somewhere, money must be flowing from the two universities to legislators in order regulate, control, and to restrict customers into buying the programs from only the two schools.
Payola, clout, bribery, fraud, and under the table payments ..... what else ?
The economic definition of Fascism, that is what socialism of the nationalist variety is, e.g., a regulatory economy in which goods and services are only nominally owned by private individuals and private firms, and in which all identities and prices for goods and labor are regulated by the government, all in the absence of individual and property rights.
In New Jersey there is a dearth of architectural and design innovation, and the market activity is next to nil. Architects I know routinely pay 1-2% of their fees to politicians to get projects to design schools and government projects in NJ.
I say that the monopoly regulation laws, and indeed, the architectural vocation licensing laws should be cancelled, and a creative and free-enterprise market re-instated in the State of New Jersey. Let us see a rebirth of creativity of business model types, design innovation, liberty, freedom of individual and intellectual action, and freedom of creativity in architecture in NJ.
Ralph,
There is this place called, "Merica" just across the border from New Jersey. All you have to do is get enough courage to cross that boarder and you will find a vast amount of schools of higher learning who have NCARB accredited programs. They might even take some of your prior core courses and transfer them as credit such as math and english, economic courses. Doubtful if any NCARB school will transfer Studio Credits, unless as electives.
Truth be told there are way more students coming out of school than the profession can absorb at this time and place. The economy has been off for a long time and the down turn certainly has resulted in a lot of people leaving or never entering the profession upon graduation.
You might even be surprised to learn you cost of education may be a lot less if you move out of state and work for a year before returning to school once you have established residence in another state where there a public universities with NCARB accredited programs. Again if cost is crazy consider taking some of the core requirement courses at a community college instead of at the University. Be sure to verify ahead of time what will transfer and what will not transfer. However since most of the time they function under the department of education you will find they serve one another.
Seems like the demand for Civil Engineers, Architectural Engineers, and Construction Managers will rise out of the depression much faster than for Architects. Why not get a degree in Civil Engineering or related field and pick up a Masters in Architecture later (if at all). I think the AIA and NCARB, by looking out for themselves first and foremost, are doing their very best to strangle the industry.
Lets not forget that out of state tuition is much more expensive than instate. Lets also not forget that the NAAB professional degree is not treated as a professional degree anyway. They mandate a certain degree and then treat graduates as if it is useless by forcing them to supplement the degree with IDP and restricting their ability to express any form of title that implies any architectural ability. A professional degree should not produce an intern. If it does it is not a professional degree. The arch cartel wants the have their cake and eat it too.
Title regulation and professional protectionism is a violation of your economic liberty if that regulation is redundant (which it is) overly burdensome as far as barriers to entry (which it is) unevenly enforced (which it is) and unnecessary (which most of it is).
Also, YES the US has been slowly transforming into a fascist state. All systems follow the path of least resistance towards greed and power. The resistance that should be keeping the govt in check is too busy watching Kim Kardasion take a shit.
In New Jersey there are only two universities that have architectural education programs that legally allow a student to take exams and to become a licensed architect.
First, NAAB accredits the schools, not NCARB. NCARB is indeed a villain, though. They administer the ARE (no problem there), they conjured up the variable length IDP in which the quality of the experience reported could be so variable, so fudged, and even dishonest for some and which a buffoon of a mentor may say "oh, ok" (a big problem, in my opinion) and that they require the NCARB certificate, ANOTHER ongoing fee simply to keep this certificate so you can get reciprocity to (most) other states, which you may not need to do every year, but only periodically, if ever.
Can you imagine if a law school grad had to work as a paralegal for 3-8 years before they could become a lawyer.
No. I couldn't. The body of professionals that is composed of attorneys would not allow that. They go to an ABA law school, pass the bar, are admitted to the bar to practice law and are thus lawyers, and if graduates of a plum school, not particularly eccentric, and in a decent market, are employed by a firm, albeit worked very hard, for very good pay. That their pay is somewhat diluted as a result of that is a problem, but I guess the triple digits count for something. They never live in some hippy-dippy part of a city with tattoo parlors and with roommates while doing IDP and trying to make ends meet.
Yeah but lawyers are a waste of space and that's why even their own profession recognizes it.
Since my u.g. curriculum is one of the common paths to law school, that is not true. At all. Most of the people I knew who were preparing for law school, were admitted to the top schools, and are now attorneys are brighter, far more well adjusted, and more professional than over 95% of the people at good a-schools, including the plum ones.
OP, the problem is simple. And I've pissed off a lot of people here when I was new. I still do. Architects don't have to live in L.A. - many live in lalaland in their brains. I believe that you should have a degree to become an architect. Sorry. Having people with a degree in chemistry then ending up at an Ivy to get the M.Arch. and having people get an associate's degree at a community college of dubious quality and then forging a career and being allowed to license because they started in the print room is not a level playing field.
I've offered this up before and I think it's the simplest solution for all 50 states and US territories, but architects don't like simple solutions, so they can have something to argue about:
B. Arch. (5 year), M. Arch I (+3 or 3.5 year), M. Arch. II (+2 year) - finite 3 year time period (eliminate IDP) and take the ARE (even partway into that 3 year internship) *
B.A. or B.S. in Architecture, Architectural Studies, Arch. Tech., or similar (4 year, not accredited) - finite 8 year time period (eliminate IDP) and take the ARE (even partway into that 8 year internship)
Some curricula for which there are pros and cons: civil eng. (structural path), CM, and landscape architecture. My gut reaction is no, since building design is not typically addressed.
Degrees in English, commerce, art, cultural anthropology, etc., AA or AS degrees, or no degree: no architect's license.
No namby-pamby bullshit, y'all hear? This is equitable, clear, and provides some incentive to get the NAAB accredited degree to chip off time. I would still like to see BA/BS Arch. grads be able to license in every jurisdiction. They did go to a-school.
* path I took - I knew which day on the calendar my 3 year period was up, and I had passed the ARE. Went to Europe to celebrate. Came back and buckled down, with no more coffeehouse time at night with study materials. The issue is when do you stamp drawings? Whether a finite time frame or IDP made architect, you may not be ready. That is for you, the professional, to decide. I've known acquaintances who left firms who pushed down the stamping responsibility to project architect types because they were not owners. Right on. So, the use of the stamp is more critical than actually having earned the title. But, damn, get it out of the way soon.
Actually newly-minted lawyers, even the Ivy League variety, are starving. There are no jobs available, and the graduates have up to $200,000 of non-dischargeable debt. Law school applications are way down and the requirements to get in a "prestigious" school have lessened considerably. Law school grads cannot even get jobs as paralegals, and no one, but no one, will hire a lawyer outside of the legal profession. They have spent a lot of money, three years of their life, and are in far worse shape career-wise than before they started law school. At least architects can retrain into construction management or similar field without anyone holding their architectural degree against them.
^ Things are bad in law. There's no doubt about that. A friend of mine was telling me about an earlier slump, but this one is prolonged. However, just as lobbyists and policy analyst types are being hired, so are attorneys. It's just way more more competitive. It never interested me, even though people told me along the way to consider it. Reliably falling asleep inside your undergraduate business law books was clearly not a predictor of success in either law school or legal practice.
Holy cow. So, Ralph (OP): "Somewhere, money must be flowing from the two universities to legislators in order regulate, control, and to restrict customers into buying the programs from only the two schools." I can almost state with certainty this isn't the case. Architecture programs are the biggest loss-leaders in most universities. Meaning, they consume a ton of resources without bringing in much non-tuition revenue. That fact alone means most states only have 1-2 state-funded schools that provide a 5 year BArch (I'm going to refrain from calling it a "professional" degree just to keep this moving along). Here in GA, we have only 1 schools with a 5 year BArch. And, for the most part, that produces enough graduates to keep supply/demand in relative balance.
Everything else is totally driven by the market. And the common thread we share with the lawyers coming out of the recession is that the market is radically rethinking how service professions are valued. Higher degrees of specialization are needed. And, yes, there are way more law schools/degrees/graduates than architects. But the lawyers who were doing well specialize in areas that have a high demand (bankruptcy) vs. areas with no demand (commercial real estate). It's not much different than most architecture firms in that regard. But what's also changed is most clients no longer pay firms to be 'on retainer' - they want to only pay for the services they're getting, as well as shopping those services around. It's causing a lot of disruption. Like architecture.
First The NAAB has an interest in restricting the number of architecture programs that are accredited, Law schools across the country are starting to shrink or downsize some are even closing outright. Architecture schools crank out more graduates than the industry can absorb and thus employment prospects are poor and eventual enrollment will start to drop in architecture schools if it has not dropped already. Law is just a few years ahead of the trend we will be facing in architecture.
Second, New Jersey has mediocre architecture because it has mediocre clients, if the height of fashion and sophistication is what we find in the Sopranos or Jersey Shore reruns we have a low bar for what is acceptable. The state is eventually a suburb of municipal centers located outside of the state, all the population is concentrated along the edges. Also it is a relatively small state
Third, Architecture is an incredibly expensive program to have in a university, the studio spaces are huge and you basically need the space of two classrooms for each studio and that one studio is just for one course. Other programs can share classrooms 8-10 per day in one room. it takes a space equivalent of 2 classrooms for 1 course for studios. Academic libraries are expensive to keep up to date and if your school has computer labs the equipment and software are expensive and costly to maintain. The going rate for a CNC system or laser cutting is upwards of six figures. Studios are messy and require much more attention from custodial staff and the late nights add to the burden of campus security, so many universities and collages don't offer architecture because of the expense.
But like art or music people tend to pursue architecture because it is something they want to do, Architecture is not a get rich field nor is it widely viewed as such, the rich lawyer stereotype has done a disservice to the law profession by attracting people for the wrong reasons. study what you would be happy doing despite the pay, but don't work for free, we have enough starving artist we don't need to add architects to the mix.
Over and OUT
Peter N
Dec 30, 13 2:08 pm ·
·
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.
NCARB - government regulation of education
In New Jersey there are only two universities that have architectural education programs that legally allow a student to take exams and to become a licensed architect. The schools are: NJIT [ New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, NJ ] and Princeton University [ Princeton, NJ ].
There are a few other schools that have design, cad, and architecture courses, however, these are not approved and courses cannot be transferred to the two selected universities.
Somewhere, money must be flowing from the two universities to legislators in order regulate, control, and to restrict customers into buying the programs from only the two schools.
Payola, clout, bribery, fraud, and under the table payments ..... what else ?
The economic definition of Fascism, that is what socialism of the nationalist variety is, e.g., a regulatory economy in which goods and services are only nominally owned by private individuals and private firms, and in which all identities and prices for goods and labor are regulated by the government, all in the absence of individual and property rights.
In New Jersey there is a dearth of architectural and design innovation, and the market activity is next to nil. Architects I know routinely pay 1-2% of their fees to politicians to get projects to design schools and government projects in NJ.
I say that the monopoly regulation laws, and indeed, the architectural vocation licensing laws should be cancelled, and a creative and free-enterprise market re-instated in the State of New Jersey. Let us see a rebirth of creativity of business model types, design innovation, liberty, freedom of individual and intellectual action, and freedom of creativity in architecture in NJ.
Ralph Hertle, Edison, NJ
Ralph,
There is this place called, "Merica" just across the border from New Jersey. All you have to do is get enough courage to cross that boarder and you will find a vast amount of schools of higher learning who have NCARB accredited programs. They might even take some of your prior core courses and transfer them as credit such as math and english, economic courses. Doubtful if any NCARB school will transfer Studio Credits, unless as electives.
Truth be told there are way more students coming out of school than the profession can absorb at this time and place. The economy has been off for a long time and the down turn certainly has resulted in a lot of people leaving or never entering the profession upon graduation.
You might even be surprised to learn you cost of education may be a lot less if you move out of state and work for a year before returning to school once you have established residence in another state where there a public universities with NCARB accredited programs. Again if cost is crazy consider taking some of the core requirement courses at a community college instead of at the University. Be sure to verify ahead of time what will transfer and what will not transfer. However since most of the time they function under the department of education you will find they serve one another.
Seems like the demand for Civil Engineers, Architectural Engineers, and Construction Managers will rise out of the depression much faster than for Architects. Why not get a degree in Civil Engineering or related field and pick up a Masters in Architecture later (if at all). I think the AIA and NCARB, by looking out for themselves first and foremost, are doing their very best to strangle the industry.
Ralph, I agree. Then they wonder why the field lacks diversity.
Lets not forget that out of state tuition is much more expensive than instate. Lets also not forget that the NAAB professional degree is not treated as a professional degree anyway. They mandate a certain degree and then treat graduates as if it is useless by forcing them to supplement the degree with IDP and restricting their ability to express any form of title that implies any architectural ability. A professional degree should not produce an intern. If it does it is not a professional degree. The arch cartel wants the have their cake and eat it too.
Title regulation and professional protectionism is a violation of your economic liberty if that regulation is redundant (which it is) overly burdensome as far as barriers to entry (which it is) unevenly enforced (which it is) and unnecessary (which most of it is).
Also, YES the US has been slowly transforming into a fascist state. All systems follow the path of least resistance towards greed and power. The resistance that should be keeping the govt in check is too busy watching Kim Kardasion take a shit.
Can you imagine if a law school grad had to work as a paralegal for 3-8 years before they could become a lawyer.
In New Jersey there are only two universities that have architectural education programs that legally allow a student to take exams and to become a licensed architect.
First, NAAB accredits the schools, not NCARB. NCARB is indeed a villain, though. They administer the ARE (no problem there), they conjured up the variable length IDP in which the quality of the experience reported could be so variable, so fudged, and even dishonest for some and which a buffoon of a mentor may say "oh, ok" (a big problem, in my opinion) and that they require the NCARB certificate, ANOTHER ongoing fee simply to keep this certificate so you can get reciprocity to (most) other states, which you may not need to do every year, but only periodically, if ever.
Can you imagine if a law school grad had to work as a paralegal for 3-8 years before they could become a lawyer.
No. I couldn't. The body of professionals that is composed of attorneys would not allow that. They go to an ABA law school, pass the bar, are admitted to the bar to practice law and are thus lawyers, and if graduates of a plum school, not particularly eccentric, and in a decent market, are employed by a firm, albeit worked very hard, for very good pay. That their pay is somewhat diluted as a result of that is a problem, but I guess the triple digits count for something. They never live in some hippy-dippy part of a city with tattoo parlors and with roommates while doing IDP and trying to make ends meet.
Yeah but lawyers are a waste of space and that's why even their own profession recognizes it.
Since my u.g. curriculum is one of the common paths to law school, that is not true. At all. Most of the people I knew who were preparing for law school, were admitted to the top schools, and are now attorneys are brighter, far more well adjusted, and more professional than over 95% of the people at good a-schools, including the plum ones.
OP, the problem is simple. And I've pissed off a lot of people here when I was new. I still do. Architects don't have to live in L.A. - many live in lalaland in their brains. I believe that you should have a degree to become an architect. Sorry. Having people with a degree in chemistry then ending up at an Ivy to get the M.Arch. and having people get an associate's degree at a community college of dubious quality and then forging a career and being allowed to license because they started in the print room is not a level playing field.
I've offered this up before and I think it's the simplest solution for all 50 states and US territories, but architects don't like simple solutions, so they can have something to argue about:
B. Arch. (5 year), M. Arch I (+3 or 3.5 year), M. Arch. II (+2 year) - finite 3 year time period (eliminate IDP) and take the ARE (even partway into that 3 year internship) *
B.A. or B.S. in Architecture, Architectural Studies, Arch. Tech., or similar (4 year, not accredited) - finite 8 year time period (eliminate IDP) and take the ARE (even partway into that 8 year internship)
Some curricula for which there are pros and cons: civil eng. (structural path), CM, and landscape architecture. My gut reaction is no, since building design is not typically addressed.
Degrees in English, commerce, art, cultural anthropology, etc., AA or AS degrees, or no degree: no architect's license.
No namby-pamby bullshit, y'all hear? This is equitable, clear, and provides some incentive to get the NAAB accredited degree to chip off time. I would still like to see BA/BS Arch. grads be able to license in every jurisdiction. They did go to a-school.
* path I took - I knew which day on the calendar my 3 year period was up, and I had passed the ARE. Went to Europe to celebrate. Came back and buckled down, with no more coffeehouse time at night with study materials. The issue is when do you stamp drawings? Whether a finite time frame or IDP made architect, you may not be ready. That is for you, the professional, to decide. I've known acquaintances who left firms who pushed down the stamping responsibility to project architect types because they were not owners. Right on. So, the use of the stamp is more critical than actually having earned the title. But, damn, get it out of the way soon.
Happy fucking New Year!!!
Actually newly-minted lawyers, even the Ivy League variety, are starving. There are no jobs available, and the graduates have up to $200,000 of non-dischargeable debt. Law school applications are way down and the requirements to get in a "prestigious" school have lessened considerably. Law school grads cannot even get jobs as paralegals, and no one, but no one, will hire a lawyer outside of the legal profession. They have spent a lot of money, three years of their life, and are in far worse shape career-wise than before they started law school. At least architects can retrain into construction management or similar field without anyone holding their architectural degree against them.
^ Things are bad in law. There's no doubt about that. A friend of mine was telling me about an earlier slump, but this one is prolonged. However, just as lobbyists and policy analyst types are being hired, so are attorneys. It's just way more more competitive. It never interested me, even though people told me along the way to consider it. Reliably falling asleep inside your undergraduate business law books was clearly not a predictor of success in either law school or legal practice.
You need to go do more research on the differences between Fascism and Socialism.
Holy cow. So, Ralph (OP): "Somewhere, money must be flowing from the two universities to legislators in order regulate, control, and to restrict customers into buying the programs from only the two schools." I can almost state with certainty this isn't the case. Architecture programs are the biggest loss-leaders in most universities. Meaning, they consume a ton of resources without bringing in much non-tuition revenue. That fact alone means most states only have 1-2 state-funded schools that provide a 5 year BArch (I'm going to refrain from calling it a "professional" degree just to keep this moving along). Here in GA, we have only 1 schools with a 5 year BArch. And, for the most part, that produces enough graduates to keep supply/demand in relative balance.
Everything else is totally driven by the market. And the common thread we share with the lawyers coming out of the recession is that the market is radically rethinking how service professions are valued. Higher degrees of specialization are needed. And, yes, there are way more law schools/degrees/graduates than architects. But the lawyers who were doing well specialize in areas that have a high demand (bankruptcy) vs. areas with no demand (commercial real estate). It's not much different than most architecture firms in that regard. But what's also changed is most clients no longer pay firms to be 'on retainer' - they want to only pay for the services they're getting, as well as shopping those services around. It's causing a lot of disruption. Like architecture.
First The NAAB has an interest in restricting the number of architecture programs that are accredited, Law schools across the country are starting to shrink or downsize some are even closing outright. Architecture schools crank out more graduates than the industry can absorb and thus employment prospects are poor and eventual enrollment will start to drop in architecture schools if it has not dropped already. Law is just a few years ahead of the trend we will be facing in architecture.
Second, New Jersey has mediocre architecture because it has mediocre clients, if the height of fashion and sophistication is what we find in the Sopranos or Jersey Shore reruns we have a low bar for what is acceptable. The state is eventually a suburb of municipal centers located outside of the state, all the population is concentrated along the edges. Also it is a relatively small state
Third, Architecture is an incredibly expensive program to have in a university, the studio spaces are huge and you basically need the space of two classrooms for each studio and that one studio is just for one course. Other programs can share classrooms 8-10 per day in one room. it takes a space equivalent of 2 classrooms for 1 course for studios. Academic libraries are expensive to keep up to date and if your school has computer labs the equipment and software are expensive and costly to maintain. The going rate for a CNC system or laser cutting is upwards of six figures. Studios are messy and require much more attention from custodial staff and the late nights add to the burden of campus security, so many universities and collages don't offer architecture because of the expense.
But like art or music people tend to pursue architecture because it is something they want to do, Architecture is not a get rich field nor is it widely viewed as such, the rich lawyer stereotype has done a disservice to the law profession by attracting people for the wrong reasons. study what you would be happy doing despite the pay, but don't work for free, we have enough starving artist we don't need to add architects to the mix.
Over and OUT
Peter N
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.