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Mir-Hossein Mousavi an architect

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Moses

someone who doesn't like someones opinion, will resort to white washing them like what this imbocile H&R is doing.

You actually spent a year on 4chan,.. how old are you?

Jun 19, 09 4:07 am  · 
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hillandrock

ive spent more than a year on 4chan.

OLD ENOUGH. 13/f/mi... you want to chat big boy?

Jun 19, 09 4:11 am  · 
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chatter of clouds

there is some substance to what Moses says, I believe. why don't the US and Europe go try 'democratizing' Saudi Arabia? because saudi plays along, gives its oil up readily and doesn't go on and on about israel's destructive acts in the region and because it discourages libertarian movements in the region (hizbolla, hamas..) through forging alliance with corrupt governments in the region. its not really about democracy then, is it? don't get me wrong, kudos to the iranians for knowing what they want but why should the US and Europe, and their citizens, who have had the most detrimental effect on the middle east region historically and presently, be seen as holding the ethical measuring yardstick, commending or condoning, here? iran should find its way out of this without the involvement of any insiduous involvement of a suspect third party. i'm glad the US president, for a change, has not thrown his pitch in for one side over the other but i doubt his stance suffices to stem the US institutional tradition of being anti-islamic republic iran and anti non-US-conformist entities.

Jun 19, 09 6:13 am  · 
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chatter of clouds

not to mention that if the US does over pressurize KSA, KSA can explode outwardly as well as implode internally endangering not only oil supply but further escalating the emigration of fundamentalist terrorism. saudi not only has the oil card in its hand but also that of extreme sunni jihadist up its sleave.

Jun 19, 09 6:19 am  · 
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chatter of clouds

iranians as shiites are much more well acquainted with differences in coexisting theological interpretations and are endowed with theocratic diversity; it is part of their culture, history and religions to foster diversity whereas in saudi, the ultimate sunni wahabi stronghold, this is frowned upon. iran is way way more democratic.

Jun 19, 09 6:28 am  · 
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med.

Saudi Arabia is the complete antithesis of Iran. The two should never be compared.

It is the #1 sponsor of terrorism, the biggest violator of human rights, and blantantly considers women as third class citizens. And we are one of their #1 supporters. Now THAT is just comical.

Iran is light-years ahead of the Saudis. There will be some good that will come out of this ordeal. Whether the oposition likes it or not the Shi'a establishment will be firmly planted in Iran's future but there will be a massive overhaul to soften the conservatives. The hardliners should know all too well that the only alternative is a nasty civil war. Remember, the Islamic Revolution in Iran was popular when it happened. Don't expect a sudden change overnight.

Jun 19, 09 10:54 am  · 
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oe

And just for the record, Im quite certain weve given pakistan considerably more than 3 billion over the last several years.

Jun 19, 09 11:12 am  · 
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med.

We've given a lot of countries money that they don't deserve. Israel is one of many... Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Pakistan, etc also should get their shit together before bumming money from us.

Jun 19, 09 11:23 am  · 
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nomadzilla

I really don't have any motivation to update this thread since Moses hijacked the topic to talk about an unrelated issue. But I'm surprised at how you folks have give in and are arguing with someone who is obviously just looking for a fight and doesn't understand a word about how to have a respectful rational dialogue with others.

Have fun ignoring the sacrifices and pain a nation is going through just to get back it's independence, freedom and republic, the three elements our fathers stood for against the Shah's regime 30 years ago.

Internet is scarce here in Tehran, and i might as well use it for a good cause rather than replying to Moses's bullshit.

Jun 19, 09 12:17 pm  · 
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nomad,

Sorry for the highjacking.. What next after the Ayatollah's speech?
Is your feeling that the protests will continue?

Good to know you are still safe.

Jun 19, 09 12:29 pm  · 
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mantaray

nomad, i've been checking this thread to keep up with YOU and YOUR situation in iran, and have had to skip past all the bullshit racist crap that moses-idiot is putting up, and all the troll-feeders indulging him.

Everybody stop responding to this fool and we can move on to more important things, like the situation in Iran.

please do continue to post as you are able, nomad, I for one would appreciate it. I have been scouring news feeds to try to find out the truth of what's going on. Please stay safe.

Jun 19, 09 2:25 pm  · 
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mantaray

curious -- I read somewhere that one ayatollah disagrees with the Supreme Leader & stated he felt the election was rigged and should be investigated. Is that true? If so, what happens when one Ayatollah disagrees with the Supreme Leader? Does he have any influence? Do they ever disagree?

Jun 19, 09 2:30 pm  · 
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nomad glad to hear from you. I'm wondering the same as namhenderson-- what now, after khamenei's veiled threat?

to everybody -- sorry about my contributions to the feeding. green about this whole troll thing, less so now.

Jun 19, 09 2:31 pm  · 
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Living in Gin

From what I've read, only the Council of Experts has the legal authority to remove the Supreme Leader. This council had been holding a special meeting, but I haven't seen any news about the outcome of that meeting.

Stay in touch, nomad.

Jun 19, 09 2:43 pm  · 
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The neighboring Turkish press has been extremely quiet about the whole situation except trying gingerly not to offend any Iranian official or agency. Usually there would be barrage of editorials.
The natural oil gas and other deals, I suspect.
Alliances and behind the scenes deals change from country to country. As a neighbor, who knows the inner workings of the Iranian society, they are very careful assessing the situation.

Jun 19, 09 3:42 pm  · 
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nomadzilla

thanks for your support guys,
about how Khamenei's speech will effect the situation:

1. he basically gave the hardliners and bassijis the green light to use repressive military force to intimidate people. This means that you'll probably hear more and more reports of killings from Tehran in the next weeks or months. This conflict is almost inevitable because after Khamenei's speech people are even more angry with the results, tonight people were more motivated than ever to shout out slogans from their rooftops, something that has been going on over the past week.

2. Khamenei has invested the whole creditability and legitimacy of the islamic republic's 30 year history in Ahmadinejads re-election. He is basically risking the trust of the nation to keep ahmadinejad in power. And in someways this might be a good sign, because many people who had previously supported the islamic republic are now seeing obvious signs of corruption and dictatorship in the leadership. Even fractions of the revolutionary guards who supported rezaei during this election and have significant military power in Iran are now gradually losing their trust in the leadership. The thing that is very obvious now in Iran is that this election was the last one people really participated in, thus the validity of the regime will definitely decline if the leader doesn't change his attitude.

3. I think the protests will eventually fail in an incident similar to Tiananmen Square in 1989. First of all, millions of people are just frustrated with the regime and will not stop protesting anytime soon but will face guards and militia ready to fire. Secondly, the protests seem a bit pointless now that khamenei has shown his pharaoh-like side, since moosavi would have to work under his supervision even if the real election ballots were to be announced. Thirdly, even if moosavi wanted to overthrow khamenei (which he doesn't intend to) he doesn't have the leadership characteristics to do so, specially the fact that he's an old member of the islamic republic system and was khamenei's PM for 8 years back when khamenei was the president and khomeini was the supreme leader, this will make it almost a paradox for people to stand with him in a very unlikely uprising against the leadership and regime.

4. The ayatollah who condemned the rigged election and Khamenei's reaction to the coup was Ayatollah Montazeri, an old figure in the regime who was selected by khomeini to become the supreme leader but was rejected by the regime in 1989 due to his liberal ideology. He has been under house arrest ever since. So, as you can imagine, he has very limited influence.

5. About the Council of Experts, they are elected by the people but are screened by the guardian council (who are selected by the leader), so basically the leader indirectly picks the "experts" who can remove him. There is absolutely no chance that their meeting had anything to do with removing Khamenei.

6. Orhan, i think Turkish press is trying to keep quiet because the turkish government has much more at stake in relations with Iran compared to the west. Gul and Ahmadinejad have many differences but don't forget, they are great business partners. And it is very likely that Turkey will want to act as a moderator in future Iran-USA diplomatic relations.

Jun 19, 09 9:01 pm  · 
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nomad, yes.

here is an article from a turkish blog. (i can't give the name because it discloses the name of the iranian writer and her e-mail address..





by xxxxxx xxxxxxx (please contact her for further daily reports - xxxxxxxx @ gmail.com

Tehran Report / a collective will.

June 14th, 2009

8:45 PM
It‟s still less than ten days before the official beginning of summer.
Although the weather may be warm and the blossoms are gone, it is, according to the position of the Earth in relation to the Sun, spring. Tehran Spring.

A period of political liberalization under a Reformist government, backed by popular approval against the Soviet-backed Socialist system in Czechoslovakia in 1968 has come to be known as the Prague Spring. Infamous for the brutalityof the Soviet and Warsaw Pact tanks rolling into the city of Prague eight months after President Alexander Dubcek loosened restrictions on speech, the media and travel, millions of demonstrators were crushed within seconds,
although they remained peaceful the entire time. Czechoslovakia remained occupied by Soviet military forces until 1990, when the Socialist system collapsed. The Prague Spring may have not been successful from a populist, anti-authoritarian perspective, but it indicated a trend, rising in Europe and the world at the time, that unrest existed on many levels: cultural, economic, social, and, most importantly, ideological.
The demonstrations in Prague temporarily shadowed the International Marxist movement, popular amongst intellectuals in Western Europe, as the USSR proved once again that the utopian yearning for revolution had seceded to authority hungry for control. During the early months of the Prague Spring, inspired by the Socialist reformist experiment in Czechoslovakia, students in Paris and other Western European cities set the university ablaze, workers went on strike, and the bureaucracy collapsed.
A glimmer of hope, only temporary, until the moment of the Grand Compromise between the „68ers and De Gaulle‟s government occurred one month later, effectively paralyzing Leftism in the West until even today.
This paralysis was confirmed by the multilateral Soviet crushing of the reformist movement later that summer.
Foucault‟s take on the Iranian Revolution has always been controversial.
His articles in France were read with disdain, as Foucault effectively stepped outside of his typically meticulous mode of analysis to embrace a Hegelian "Spirit" embedded deep within his psyche. He praised the "collective will of the Iranian people" as an undeniable, inspirational force to be reckoned with and to learn from.
He was, per chance, nostalgic for "true", "authentic" revolutionary movement, a nostalgia whose origins lay potentially in the dashed hopes of May 1968.
Yet, in an interview between Foucault and journalists Claire Briere and Pierre Blanchet ("Iran: The Spirit of a World Without Spirit"), Foucault exhibits moments in which his analytical clarity shines: "It is true that Iranian society is shot through with contradictions that cannot in any way be denied, but it is certain that the revolutionary event that has been taking place for a year now, and which is at the same time an inner experience, a sort of constantly recommenced liturgy, a community experience, and so on, all that is certainly articulated onto the class struggle: but that doesn‟t find expression in an immediate, transparent way."

Jun 19, 09 9:53 pm  · 
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no more time for him.

back to topic-- is this real? they are going ahead with it?

http://twitter.com/mousavi1388

"Please join Mousavi, Khatami and Karoubi tomorrow at 4pm from Enghelab Sq. to Azadi Sq. in Tehran for a crucial green protest #IranElection"

- posted 8 hours ago it says. if true, that's way ballsier than anything anybody I've talked to has expected as a next move...


Jun 19, 09 10:46 pm  · 
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take back the first comment, I was looking at the end of page one and thought moses was back saying the same thing again.

Jun 19, 09 10:47 pm  · 
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totally not aimed at orhan. in context it looks even worse...

Jun 19, 09 10:49 pm  · 
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and reading it, that's an amazing article. thanks orhan.

Jun 19, 09 10:55 pm  · 
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Living in Gin

Heh... No worries, subtect.

I'll be traveling tomorrow and won't be able to keep up with the news, but I'm hoping and praying for the best. Those protesters are about a million times braver than I am.

Allah-o Akbar.

Jun 19, 09 10:55 pm  · 
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Iranians are great people and it is a magnificent culture. You people deserve better than this oppressive regime.

Jun 19, 09 11:27 pm  · 
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"Please join Mousavi, Khatami and Karoubi tomorrow at 4pm from Enghelab Sq. to Azadi Sq. in Tehran for a crucial green protest #IranElection"

if anybody finds info on the authenticity of this, please post. this is a serious game of chicken. in light of khamenei's comment about "street gatherings are targets for terrorists," I'm nervous.

and I have to say, tactically, this seems completely incompetent. after that comment, if a bomb goes off in a crowd, it's going to get attached to the government regardless of whether they had anything to do with it...

Jun 20, 09 12:28 am  · 
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Living in Gin

This regime doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer. If they really wanted to steal an election the right way, they should have waited a few days to "count" the ballots and then announce Ahmadinejad the winner by a narrow margin. (*cough* Florida 2000 *cough* Ohio 2004 *cough*) It would be just as bullshit, but at least it would be more plausible. Instead, they got greedy and tried to fabricate a "landslide" to send a message.

Reminds me of how the Soviet hard-liners botched the coup against Gorbachev in 1991. All hell broke loose, and the regime collapsed. Here's hoping this regime collapses in a similar manner, with a minimum of bloodshed.

Jun 20, 09 1:40 am  · 
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Moses

And what difference would it make if Mousavi came into power?

Would the "regime" go away? ... the ayatollahs still have power?

...... its just a load of bullshit, couped together.

Jun 20, 09 10:46 am  · 
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BabbleBeautiful

There are two main advantages to having a relatively "reformist" President in Iran.

1) A better representation to the rest of the world
2) He does have a say in national economic and social issues.

Jun 20, 09 1:01 pm  · 
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BabbleBeautiful

Good read: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/weekinreview/21worth.html

Jun 20, 09 1:18 pm  · 
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BabbleBeautiful

Here's a decent blog for non-Farsi readers/speakers who want to keep abreast of what's going on in Iran.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/

My will goes out to them.

Jun 20, 09 2:46 pm  · 
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nomadzilla

Just got released from anti-riot police.
hope they don't block my exit permit.
two people died in front of my eyes today.
they pour boiling water with helicopters to keep people from forming clusters.
kicked the shit out of a bassiji who was hitting a young lady and her 4 year old daughter before i was arrested.
I have bruises on my back and head from the beatings.
I heard that moosavi and khatami did attend the rally before the militia opened fire. He said he is ready to die and told people to hold a national strike if he is arrested.
The internet, cellphones, international calls and satellite TV doesn't work most of the time.
If you've followed my posts, i mentioned the opposition fraction in the revolutionary guards who supported rezaei, well 16 high ranking generals of that fraction have been arrested.
I'm tired.

Jun 20, 09 4:33 pm  · 
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empathy is the best I can offer, nomad. despite the price paid, your response was the just one. twitter feeds are questioning if it was boiling water:

Chemical warfare? It is not boiling water but something else:

Helicopters spraying water with agent in it onto crowds. Skin irritant, will make it feel as though water is scalding.

Two reports coming from Tehran about helicopters pouring boiling water on protesters.

Helicopters did not spray boiling water. It was a type of ACID, similar to what Mojahedeen used in '78-'82.

Probably CS tear gas crystals mixed in water which is why washing it off only makes it worse. Mixing it in water like the reports would be the most efficient usage of the CS agent

Sodium metabisulfite Na2S2O5 mixed with water (5% solution) cures CS tear gas. Wash eyes with solution


also on twitter feeds, hospitals vs. embassies that are taking in the injured:

There is a list of embassies in Tehran floating around, as injured protesters are being encouraged to go to them instead of hospitals. The hospitals are very like stocked full of Basijis.

4.22 pm. Conf'd Iran Fatemiyeh Hospital Tehran: 30-40 dead as of 11pm; 200 injured. Police taking names of incoming injured.

RT ASAP! TAKING WOUNDED Portugese Embassy No.30, Nezami St., Abbas Pour St., Valy-e-Asr

RT RT Australian Embassy accepting injured: No 13, 23rd Street, Khalid Islambuli Ave - Telephone+98 21 8872 4456

European embassies reportedly open doors for injured, tell families to take them there.

Canadians, call your foreign office. It's confirmed Canadian Embassy rejects injured protesters

rest and be as safe as you can be, nomad.

Jun 20, 09 6:20 pm  · 
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here's an email to send your concerns regarding canadian embassy in Tehran: sos@international.gc.ca Information received from 1888 9499993 - emergency assistance for Canadians.

Jun 20, 09 7:15 pm  · 
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here's the response from the canadian government. as with all the info flying around, so hard to confirm anything:


In response to your concerns regarding the situation in Iran, we would like to share the following with you:

Reports on Saturday that the Canadian Embassy in Iran was turning away people seeking sanctuary are false. The Embassy was closed Saturday and there were no Canadians at the Embassy when the protests began.

We have been advised by other Embassies in Tehran that they did not provide shelter to injured Iranians, as has been alleged.

Embassy staff has made every attempt to ensure services, particularly consular, remain unaffected by the situation. Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada, including the Canadian Embassy in Tehran, continues to provide consular assistance to Canadian citizens in-person, on the phone and through email.

Jun 21, 09 3:28 pm  · 
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further statistical analysis on the results:

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/files/14234_iranelection0609.pdf

Jun 21, 09 3:55 pm  · 
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med.

If the regime is smart they will need to start reforming NOW on their own (no international intervention -- that will only make things worse).

Otherwise, Iran will succumb to becoming nothing more than a puppet of the US which is not what the Middle East needs. The Middle East needs a powerful Iran not a sissified version of it with a total pansy of a leader like King Abdullah, Hosni Mubarak, Bashar Assad, etc.

Jun 21, 09 5:23 pm  · 
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an alternative reading of events:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF16Ak05.html

Jun 21, 09 5:30 pm  · 
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toasteroven

nomad - stay safe... my thoughts go out to you and everyone caught up in this mess...

I'm thinking things will change pretty quickly once a general strike has been organized.

Jun 22, 09 12:41 am  · 
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nomadzilla

I received a letter from the Iranian military service organization today,
my exit permit has been annulled.
I think the best way to resist right now is to hold a national strike and keep on chanting from the rooftops at night. It will have a long-term effect and weaken the government without shedding more blood and ruining anyones future.
besides, if i join the protests right now, there's a high chance that i'll get killed.
Since i can't get out of the country, can anyone tell me how i can defer my admission offer? Who should i contact?

Jun 22, 09 2:57 am  · 
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BabbleBeautiful

Sorry to hear about the annulment. Can you try again?

The best way is to call the Admissions office of the school you want to defer till next year.

And yes, a national strike would probably be the next best logical step. I wish I was there with you, and we (representing San Diego Iranians) support you and send our wills to you all.

Jun 22, 09 3:04 am  · 
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toasteroven

I'm sure any admissions office will be sympathetic to your situation - contact them.

what school are you planning on going to? maybe someone on archinect who is affiliated with the program can help you out.

Jun 22, 09 9:55 am  · 
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med.

You write them a letter and tell them to go fuck themselves -- and you're going anyway whether they like it or not.

Jun 22, 09 10:03 am  · 
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WonderK

nomadzilla, where are you going to school? Would it matter in the least if they wrote a petition asking for your exit permit?

I'm so glad you are OK. This is terrifying and we feel very helpless as to what we can do on the outside. Be safe.

Jun 22, 09 12:43 pm  · 
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le bossman

nomad

the university of michigan will definitely post-pone your attendance, if you want them to. i did so for a much lesser reason, they would probably love aligning themselves with helping the oppressed and would probably be enthusiastic about helping you out if you write them (raoul wallenberg studied architecture at michigan which they like to point out often). perhaps as an alumni i can be of some assistance in helping to twist their arm by writing an email or two, although i'm just a small fish. let me know.

Jun 22, 09 4:20 pm  · 
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Moses

Is there a strike nation wide? or just where the wealthy iranians are in Tehran?

Jun 22, 09 4:51 pm  · 
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med.

Oh, and I too would be deligted to help in any way I can as well Nomad. At my school, there were many people from Iran who were brilliant architects. I'm sure any of the US schools are on your side and are willing to help.

Just do us a favor and stay safe no matter what!

Jun 22, 09 4:52 pm  · 
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Moses

stay safe nomad, stay in doors...

Jun 22, 09 4:52 pm  · 
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Moses

They're having a box-for-box recount :-

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=98782&sectionid=351020101

Jun 22, 09 4:56 pm  · 
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med.

Ayyyeee Moses. Ease off.

I'm all about being critical of western hypocricy and the double standard on this event, but there is a time and place for that.

I'm finding it more and more difficult to believe that Ahmedinajad won this election. The evidence is looking more and more overwhelming. Think about it -- why would people want to re-elect a president that really made this economy tank? I mean there are wide reports that the economy of Iran could have been stellar but far to many management mishaps led to a battered economy. and this all came from the top.

Still, Iran can be a great democracy but it's path does not want to be a puppet of the US like Turkey, Iraq, Pakistan, and Egypt. Iranians are above that.

Jun 22, 09 4:56 pm  · 
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Moses

wtf. med, i asked if it was a nation wide protest or just in Tehran where the more well off are, its a viable question !

rich venezualians hated chaves for socialising everything,... poor venezualians liked him for it... same with Iran. so dont make out like im attacking innocent people,

I would have liked Mousavi win though. He would have restored more of Irans art & history.

stay safe nomad, peace. If its dangerous dont risk it.

Jun 22, 09 5:04 pm  · 
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