Mir-Hossein Mousavi an architect



Turkey is an essential member of NATO. I would not call them a puppet. They act in unison with Western powers and the US, but believe me, they have their own minds to act upon like refusing to give open bases and passage on the northern front to US forces going into Iraq in 2003. That was a narrow but open vote decision of Turkish Parliament. At this time, they are a puppet of US if you can call Italy a puppet or Germany a puppet.
The West is the side they chose to ally themselves with for many decades since 1923 and before that it was the Ottoman Empire, a whole different track record by itself.
Do they have growing pains and interruptions in their democracy? Yes, but not to the extend of calling them puppet of anybody but of themselves.

On the other hand, I do agree with you partially that Iran can have a unique non aligned free society. But for now, they are under the rules of religious constitution.

In the case of other countries you mention, non of them have a tradition of western style democracy.

Will Iran Look More Like Turkey, or Turkey Like Iran?

Jun 22, 09 9:40 pm  · 

sorry to hear the news, nomad.

storm clouds from twitter:

“Head of parliament’s judiciary committee: Mousavi
accountable for illegal protests, can be pursued

“Iran MP: Ground ready to legally pursue Mousavi for
acting against national security.”

“Head of the Judicial Commission of Majlis has
requested the judicial pursuit of Mir Hussein

and word is this is worth reading:

which itself is some kind of translation of this:

I have to say based on what little I understand, this sounds like a believable picture of what's going on backstage:

It is being said that the reason for the coup d'etat is Khamenei's growing health problems and the severity of his lung cancer. His son Mojtaba wanted to keep the role of Supreme Leader in the family and needed the presidential power to be sympathetic and close to home on the issue.

It is said that the experience of the House of Ayatollah Khomeini and specifically, Ahmad Khomeini's experience, had a big role in shaping recent events. They were determined to select the next Supreme Leader prior to the death of Khamenei. This is based on a line in Mousavi's letter to the Supreme Leader saying that the recent events would not only impact the presidency but the foundation of Leadership in the future--changing the Islamic Republic to a monarchy or an Islamic Monarchy.

Jun 23, 09 1:41 am  · 

I have to admit that it took me the better part of the last week to figure out that "Khomeini" was the original Ayatollah and "Khamenei" is the dude now. At first I thought it was the same name, and then I saw Christiane Amanpour pronounce it differently, and then I got it. The spelling is so close...stupid question, but are the two related in any way?

Jun 23, 09 2:52 am  · 

nope, no relation.

Jun 23, 09 3:10 am  · 

follow up on this:

"It is said that the experience of the House of Ayatollah Khomeini and specifically, Ahmad Khomeini's experience, had a big role in shaping recent events."

Ayatollah Khomeini's death in June 1989, soon after he had ousted his successor Ayatollah Montazeri, presented ambitious leading clergymen with a great opportunity: Ahmad considered himself a hereditary candidate; he wanted to succeed his father or at least be considered as a member of a leadership council. But those who argued in favour of a single leader won the day and chose Hojjal al-Islam Khamenei, to the annoyance of Ahmad Khomeini, who was left out of the active political scene.

Jun 23, 09 3:19 am  · 

Hey folks,
the internet is cut off in Iran, the "twitter effect" is becoming a really powerful force in our protests.
If the bassijis don't see any phone cameras pointing at them they might fire at us. The government really doesn't want the world to see their brutality and facebook and twitter is really stopping them from repressing the people even more than this.
The strikes are going on but aren't really nation-wide. But i expect them to gain momentum if the government arrests Moosavi, something that will happen sooner or later.
The strikes are not just in Tehran, in fact the strike at Tabriz's Bazaar in northwestern Iran was more effective than any strike in Tehran so far.
Many of the influential grand ayatollahs who have opposed the "s-elections" are under house arrest in Qom. the government has said that they have done so to "protect" them from terrorist attacks.
About my situation here: The police came to my house yesterday and told my family that they've identified and traced my car in one of the rallies. They were there to arrest me, so now i'm in hiding at a relatives house. Many of my friends are in a similar situation, whether they have attended the protests or were just members of the moosavi campaign. I really can't tell them to fuck themselves, that's not how things work in a country after a coup d-etat,
I was planning to attend the university of Michigan, but without an exit permit i won't be allowed to fly out of the country to get my visa in Dubai.
Le Bossman, thanks, I'll get in touch with the program coordinator and see how they could process my deferral. I really don't want to lose the opportunity and i might even make it this year if i pull some strings and if the university of michigan has a "late arrival" option.
@Subtect: Khamenei won't be able to keep the leadership in his family, Mojtaba is just a corrupt kid and those in power won't give away this valuable position to someone who became nationally infamous during Ahmadinejad's first term. But rather, khamenei wants to keep it in his own "school of thought", the main options in this regard are: Shahroudi (the chief of Iran's judiciary system) and Mesbah Yazdi (A very influential hardliner Ayatollah). I've seen a photo of ahmadinejad kissing Mesbah's foot during a meeting with him in Qom last year. It might have been photoshoped but the concept is very true.
@WonderK: Not related. It was kinda funny when all iranian leaders had names starting with "kha". When Khatami was president, better known as "the good old days".

Jun 23, 09 3:53 am  · 

nomad - I really appreciate you keeping us up with what is going on. stay safe.

I've heard that if the oil workers strike, then it's pretty much over - is that true? How much effect do they have?

Jun 23, 09 7:49 am  · 

Nomad - Thanks for the update. Please stay safe.

Jun 23, 09 8:23 am  · 

Mojtaba Khamenei:

According to some Iran analysts, Khamenei, 70, is manoeuvring to position his son as his successor.

Formally, the position is supposed to be awarded by the assembly of experts, an elected group of clerics led by the most powerful rival to Khamenei and Ahmadinejad, Hashemi Rafsanjani.

But the first supreme leader, ­Ruhollah Khomeini, had a powerful say on who his successor should be.

Khamenei has been increasingly described in the official media as the "Ali of our times", a reference to Ali, the Shia imam who passed on the position to his son Hassan.

"There has been a lot of talk lately that this is all about Mojtaba and the succession," said Ali Ansari, an Iran analyst at St Andrews University.

"He may be securing the position for the long term, and protecting it. The argument is that he is protecting his future."

Jun 23, 09 2:31 pm  · 

from the comments section here:

Events of 12-13 June Coup d’etat code-named: “Sharayet-e Khakestari” (Condition Grey):

English Translation of Original Memo transcribing the events of the day:

On evening of 22 Khordad 1388 (12 July 2009), the Ministry of Interior (State Department/Home Office) based on the final and definitive estimates of the results of the votes received from the election ballots from nationwide voting centres, officially awarded Mir-Hossein Mousavi the election win (of 10th term of the IROI presidential elections) and first and foremost directly advised Ali Khamenei. Ali Khamenei accepted Mousavi’s victory but with the precondition that Mousavi does not rush for the announcement of his win so as to avoid causing any tensions within the government and his supporters.

At the dawn of 23 Khordad 1388 (13 June 2009) a few hours after the Ministry of Interior had advised Khamenei of Mousavi’s win, immediately after morning prayers, based on a plan – blue printed well in advance by IRGC, Khamenei was taken from “Beit-e Rahbari (HQ of Supreme Leader)” in Pasteur Square, Tehran and transferr ed to a predefined location in North of Tehran, in Aghdassieh.

While in transit to North of Tehran, the IRGC command unit deployed at the HQ’s of the Supreme Leader advised Khamenei through Mojtaba Khamenei (his son) that the reason for this transfer was because of a “Condition Grey” and the transfer was as per instructions from the “IRGC Motahari Central Command” unit. During the transit, the special force battalions 1, 2 and 3 along with the protection team of Khamenei’s family and the Physical Protection Team in addition to the Check-and-Neutralize Team were completely transferred from the HQ’s of the Supreme Leader to the destination North of Tehran where Khamenei was headed.

On completion of the transfer of Khamenei, the expansion of the coup d’état operations (which had started the previous day in very preliminary form) was actioned throughout the city under code name “Maneuvre Eghtedar (Authority Maneuver)”. Simultaneously with this surprise maneuver which began to uncover its true nature as being a coup d’état, military and special forces – coup d’état units deployed and disperssed throughout the city.
Although20forces behind the coup d’état code named “Maneuver Authority” all were issued and equipped with black police uniform and on the surface giving the maneuver tone and image of being run by the police but the leadership and command was led by a “Council” which consisted of senior IRGC commanders and the head of the police force, “Ahmadi-Moghaddam”. The majority of the commanders implementing the maneuver were also commanders of the Revolutionary Guards and were not police commanders. “Mojtaba” second son of Ali Khamenei who represented the Supreme Leader’s Office was in direct contact with the Council for the coordination and implementation of the coup. The Council having predicted resistance by Mir-Hossein Mousavi and his camp had prepared in advance an initial (work in progress) arrest list which was completed at later stages of the coup.

It is not clear at this juncture if on 13 June 2009, during the implementation of the coup in Tehran if in fact Khamenei was completely unware of the advanced plan for the coup d’etat and just then only provided with updates and progress reports with regard to the status of the coup implementation in Tehran but was crystal clear is that Khamenei through his son Mojtaba was at the time in direct contact with those in charge of the coup and that he became a supporter of the coup movement after he was briefed earlier in the day. What is become increasingly clear is the whole planning for the coup had been a premeditated plan by Mojtaba but that Mojtaba for public consumption purposes (and what would possibly become useful at a later stage as damage control measures) deceived to appear and remain arms-length by avoiding to have been on record having given the initial instruction to plan or initiate the coup and falsely give the impression that he/Mojtaba had only entered the scene and became aware of the coup at a later stage and only after the coup had become a foregone conclusion by IRGC and that he/Mojtaba only became a supporter of the coup from this point onwards.

Jun 23, 09 3:45 pm  · 
On the fence

Man, I love this thread.

A more confused lot of people would be hard to find.

Conspiracy theorists are my all time favorite to read. Sometimes I even contemplate making myself a tinfoil hat.

Jun 23, 09 4:04 pm  · 

gather up information. sift.

Jun 23, 09 5:03 pm  · 

who decides what a conspiracy theory is? .... you?

Jun 23, 09 5:19 pm  · 

no, you do, Moses.

Jun 23, 09 5:22 pm  · 

thanks for being my inferior afrdsak...

It was a conspiracy that Saddam had nukes.. what are the chances at the time, you thought it was fact?

Now think, does bin laden exist?

i dont know the answer... you might though.

Jun 23, 09 5:38 pm  · 

the new protest tactic:

Mousavi - We will not expend any more energy talking to the Gov in the streets - we must change course #Iranelection breaking news RT RT RT

Mousavi - From Today every morning at 9am WE ALL travel to Tehran Bazaar - whatever reaction from Gov - Bazaar will close

Mousavi - stop all work and travel with friends & family toward Tehran Bazaar every day at 9am

Mousavi - do NOT wear green - dress normally - bring your children - if stopped u are ONLY going shopping

Mousavi - the objective is to bring Tehran to standstill - millions of people go shopping but NOBODY SHOPPING

Mousavi - There is nothing to fear - if asked - YOU ARE ONLY GOING SHOPPING

Mousavi - no matter what the reaction of the Gov - the Bazaar will close or be at standstill

Mousavi - - #Iranelection RT RT RT

and commentary:

This is quite brilliant on a tactical level. It is a method of contributing to a General Strike without calling it one. It gives the bazaari shopkeepers a pretext to shut down the bazaars - the backbone of Iranian commerce - without risking losing their market posts (as the State has threatened). It allows demonstrators a large degree of stealth heading to and from the "demonstration" without placards or wearing green or anything else to call attention to them as individuals. It focuses the struggle in a highly public place - one that exists in every city and town - where if the State chooses violent repression it will provoke even more opposition from previously unmobilized forces. How does the regime deal with that? It leaves no good choices for those trying to hold on to what is already a shaking grip on their power.

Jun 23, 09 5:54 pm  · 

The US makes it pretty east to beleive in conspiracy theories. Look at Iraq.

Jun 23, 09 8:29 pm  · 

Orhan, I've heard Turks make many of these claims -- all of which are pretty tired and pretty worn-out.

- Many Turks are ashamed to be Muslim so that they can look cool in front of the Americans. (you know it's true!) And it seems like this is heavily encouraged by the Turkish government.

- Turkey is led by a vehemently anti-Islam government (I mean banning women who choose to wear headscarves in public?! Really??) All so they can look cool to the Americans. Someone needs to vouch for their EU membership!

- Most of them bandy on about this idea of a pre-Islamic "advanced Turkish Civilization." VERY comical. And to the average unsuspecting American redneck, that Makes modern Turkey REALLY cool!

- They blindly followed Israel's side durring the Intifada and the war on Lebanon only because George W. Bush was too busy sucking Ariel Sharon's dick. It's only a matter of time before they tear down the Dome on the Rock and help the Israelis rebuild the Temple!

- And lastly, it would seem they "amazingly" sided with Bush's war on the people of Iraq. I mean they used Turkey's airspace to carry out these asaults all so we can be "shocked" and "awed."

Yeah, see the difference between Italy, France, and all those other European countries and Turkey is that those European countries actually have the balls to put their foot on the ground when you have a rampaging redneck US president trying to launch his "crusade." in the Middle East.

Jun 23, 09 8:45 pm  · 

everything you say is full of shit and totally unsubstantiated. i've heard people calling you that but this is the first hand i am witnessing regarding the information you wrote (stupid ass childish babble, if you will.)
i won't even bother to go over your points because not only they are full of fabrication, discrepancies and misinformation but they are also full of hatred for turks and most of them are quite the opposite.
do your fucking homework before you write stuff like that.

Jun 23, 09 9:30 pm  · 

Orhan, you know I'm not talking about Turkish people! I'm talking about the government in which many western nations prattle on about as being somewhat of an "ideal" example for the Islamic world to follow which I obviously wholeheartilly reject. People tend to throw this blanket statement on the Islamic world as being one big entity where the mentality of everyone is exactly the same. And no western comentator can ever get past this simple little idea where every country in the Islamic world has a different culture, different history, and a different path cut in front of it.

Shocked? I'm still trying to figure out which one of those facts need "substantiating." Everything seems to jive pretty well.

Otherwise, it sounds to me you're just joining the bandwagon.

Speeking of bandwagon, I just love the fact that Americans are doing what they are used to doing -- and that is being an expert on a country (in this case Iran) that they had no idea about before two weeks ago.

Jun 23, 09 9:50 pm  · 


"- Many Turks are ashamed to be Muslim so that they can look cool in front of the Americans. (you know it's true!) And it seems like this is heavily encouraged by the Turkish government."

"- Most of them bandy on about this idea of a pre-Islamic "advanced Turkish Civilization." VERY comical. And to the average unsuspecting American redneck, that Makes modern Turkey REALLY cool!"


"Orhan, you know I'm not talking about Turkish people! I'm talking about the government..."

can't imagine how he misunderstood.

and I can't help but think I might be intended as part of your last comment, so I'll say this: I've spent some time there, I've been married to an iranian woman for 7 years, and she is currently inside iran. this, I'm sure you can understand, gives me a compelling reason to read as much as I can find, the best of which I print as a pdf and send to her since she's in a filtered info blackhole. some of these things might be worth passing on to others, so I post them here, at the very least because it might be interesting and/or useful for nomadzilla and anybody else that's there and on archinect, which isn't filtered.

Jun 23, 09 10:29 pm  · 

Subtect, it wasn't intended for you.

Jun 23, 09 10:36 pm  · 

Sorry I offended you guys too.

Jun 23, 09 10:36 pm  · 

"A reformist website, Rooyeh, reported that Rafsanjani already had the support of nearly a majority of the Assembly of Experts, a body that constitutionally has the power to remove Ayatollah Khamenei. The report also indicated that Rafsanjani’s lobbying efforts were continuing to bring more clerics over to his side. Rafsanjani’s aim, the website added, is the establishment of a leadership council, comprising of three or more top religious leaders, to replace the institution of supreme leader. Shortly after it posted the report on Rafsanjani’s efforts to establish a new collective leadership, government officials pulled the plug on Rooyeh."

Jun 23, 09 10:47 pm  · 

here is an article written by a german that would help many to understand some of the basic inner workings of iran;
Behind the Scenes of the Islamic Republic

Jun 23, 09 11:12 pm  · 
chatter of clouds

this is besides the point but could it be only me that sometimes thinks that mousavi doesn't look too kosher (maybe for the ahmadinejad supporters he looks far too kosher :o)

could he be a dubious evil but impeccably kept 'car salesman' type in the guise of a benevolent old man?

then again, i concur with my brother's friend...ahmedinejad looks like a car mechanic. are car mechanics more honest than car salespeople?

Jun 24, 09 6:00 am  · 
the new republic

has a few pictures of one of Mousavi's buildings, ie the original topic of this thread...

and now with people

Jun 24, 09 1:44 pm  · 

Thanks for sharing that new republic link. The commentary is interesting:

"In passing we should also consider Zahra Rahnavard, Moussavi’s wife, who has campaigned with him and is one of the most highly regarded living sculptors and painters in Iran. Perhaps her most famous work is “Narcissus of Lovers,” (left) which was erected in Tehran’s Mother Square in 1994. To be perfectly frank, it looks awful, a ham-fisted, if earnest compromise between modernist schematism and traditional naturalism that manages to betray both. This is the sort of mid-cult style that, in the post-war West, spawned thousands of third-rate religious works that have now sunk into well-deserved oblivion. That this sculpture was created in the 1990s represents an astonishing backwardness, a lack of visual sophistication that is found in contemporary Iranian art far more often than one might expect."

Jun 24, 09 2:11 pm  · 
chatter of clouds

those columns are badly proportioned.
bad columns and bad artwork for a "budding democracy"?

Jun 27, 09 5:09 am  · 

Hey nomad, havent heard from you in a few days.. How is everthing doing there? Ive been following it closely still and the word seems to be people are trying to force backroom compromises?

Jun 27, 09 9:25 am  · 

Yeah any luck from with the Uni?

Jun 28, 09 5:00 pm  · 

this is taking an interesting turn, or is it all planned to show the world that ahmadinejad has his own mind?

Jul 22, 09 5:04 pm  · 

article not found

Apr 9, 10 1:00 pm  · 

This thread is really intense. Here's to hoping that nomadzilla made it through alright.

Apr 9, 10 1:23 pm  · 

loremipsim i know me to.

Nomad if you are out there or reading under a different name. I hope you made it to the school in US like you were planning

Apr 11, 10 10:11 am  · 

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