Minimal animal - the last part of your story sounds familiar with something I just heard of and know has happened. Also with a firm of $$$ millions in revenue. Well let it go. Oh and of course its personal - being business is the bs excuse that they use to cover their asses.
NEW YORK (AP) — To President Barack Obama, Wall Street's $18.4 billion in bonuses is "shameful." To thousands of bank employees who don't sit in corner offices, that money helps pay the bills.
Outrage over the bonuses reached as high as the White House this week following news that financial firms were rewarding employees even as they were being bailed out with billions of taxpayer dollars. The feelings are understandable: The average Wall Street bonus of $112,000 was about twice the average American's income.
I'm just wondering did anyone in architecture get a $112,000 Bonus this year?
Anybody receiving a bonus from a bailed out firm should be forced to forfeit or else face jail time for treason. It is an absolute outrage. There will be blood in the streets.
Most of you posters seem to be young and still innocent and naive...
While I understand your anger at your previous employers, I hope you realize the huge burden of being in upper management and having to make those very difficult decisions that result in laying people off.
Most managers that are in their 40s, 50s, or 60s have been laid off themselves in previous downturns, so they truly do understand what it means. It is agonizing to be forced to make decisions that hurt the very people that you have hired, nurtured, and invested time and money in--all the while, worrying about your own job, mortgage, kids in college, and seeing your life savings and retirement plans evaporate.
Even in good times, it is often partners who work 60+ hour weeks-- redmarking careless work, finishing projects that have no budget left, trying to collect from clients, chasing down new work to keep the staff busy and revenue up, dealing with employee issues, etc, etc, etc. If you hate your job now, it is best for you to find a different line of work, because there are challenges at every level.
If someone in your firm wasn't sad to see you go, you might be the problem. Really! There was great sadness, loss of sleep, and second-guessing in our last layoff. We want all those employees back, along with the work to keep them busy.
That said, I offer this advise.
Do not burn bridges, at any level. You never know who you may be working with next time around. The architecture world is very small and word spreads--the good word and the bad word. Do not lie, exaggerate, or take credit for work you didn't do--architects know one another and the work being done. Chances are they are a friend of the real designer. Don't steal files--IT IS ILLEGAL! 'Nuf said. Ask for permission before taking anything. If you worked for me, I would gladly give you whatever I could, including a glowing recommendation. Never know when you might be my boss!.
minimal animal, as an owner of my own firm and one that has worked for countless others, i do not think most bosses take the attitude that you describe. sure there are certainly the fair share of unsavory bosses out there. not doubt. but i believe most take on employees in good faith and conscience. i have never even worked for bosses who come close to matching your descriptions, and i have worked at a lot of places in a handful of different industries and been through several downturns in my career.
taking on an employee is a huge responsibility to an employer. a good employer that is. a good employer understands that their employee has dreams and goal of their own that they want to acheive. they have bills and debts. they want to save money for future, to take well needed vacations and to spend their hard earned savings on things that make their life important and meaningful. they often either have a family or want to build one. a good employer wants to provide as many benefits to their employees as they possibly can afford. they want to give as many vacation days as can be afforded as well as holidays and sick days. they want to help build 401Ks or SEPs if possible. they want to provide quality health insurance which is increasingly more difficult every year. they want to mentor them to help make them better professionals.
why? because good employers understand that if their employee is happy, taken care of, feels as though their thoughts and ideas are at least being heard and valued, they in turn will be happy. they will learn. they will perform better work, and they are eager to come to work and give 100% every day.
i'm sorry that you've had a run of bad employers, but do not assume that the majority of us are as you describe. we are not. we invest a lot of thought, effort, time and money into trying to make our businesses prosper in a meaningful way. meaningful to ourselves, our work, our clients, our employees and our community.
I aggree with your comments, my bosses work very hard,
evenings and weekends, and one of my bosses came in after midnight to help me finish a spec for tender.
Architects in their 50's has been through the 80's and 90's recessions
and have seen the hard times before. Nobody wants to let their staff go, but if projects get cancelled they have unfortunately little choice but to make those tough descions.
I first graduated in during the 90's recession and had to live in three different cities in 5 years to find design work. I can understand if people don't want to move but sometimes that is the only option.
When things pick up again I suggest looking for two indicators when choosing to take a job with a firm.
#1 check the license status of the firm’s principals, most secretary of state websites have a search engine for disciplinary actions against individuals or businesses.
#2 if you can afford to wait then don’t take a job with a firm that has no one in the ALA or AIA both organizations have some specific ethics requirements and those extend to the treatment of employees. Membership in the chamber of commerce is not a substitute for recognition and membership in one of the two organizations representing design professionals.
All of the horrific experiences I encountered or heard about regarding layoffs and shady dealings have been with firms not associated with the AIA and or ALA. I have no experience dealing with the mega firms but even before this down turn, the studio culture or the rumors of the studio culture were a big turn off when I was first looking for work, word gets around and the firms that abuse their employees will eventually have a hard time filling their ranks with qualified dedicated design professionals.
i just have to say something about "mega firms"... yes there is a corporate culture, a board, a CEO, etc... but usually they are split into multiple studio types - and sometimes those studios are separated into sub-studios. those studios act like firms within themselves. sometimes the entire culture is entirely different from one studio to the next. the way you advance is different, your work hours can even be different, and certainly compensation can be different. so just because you work at XYZ mega firm, doesn't mean it's all the same.
i worked at the mega firm i was initially hired at because the actual individuals i would be working with were quality people. i didn't know what it was like at the LA, Shanghai, Tokyo, or any of the other offices. i decided to leave that firm to get a post-pro m.arch, and they gladly and willingly offered me any help they could give me- including help with my portfolios, making prints, binding, etc. and when i was ready to return, the VP of the studio i was originally in made a personal phone call to the senior VP of the studio i wanted to transfer to. all of the people i have worked with have been wonderful and i never felt like another number.
that being said- i agree it is hard for upper management to make difficult decisions about layoffs- even at mega firms- not just the small and mid-sized. there are so many misconceptions about large firms- but when you get right down to it, if you have found the right people to work with/for, it makes all the difference.
M animal--it looks like a lot of people here are trying to help you get yourself together. Your bitterness and blaming are only hurting you so I pray you overcome them.
Architecture is a cyclical business. If you can't deal with that, find something stable, perhaps a government job. I doubt many people in any field are feeling very secure right now. It is a profoundly disturbing time, but it is an opportunity to examine our lives, our goals, our systems, and our values and learn better ways to do things in the future.
By the way--huge revenues are usually accompanied by huge expenses. Whatever you think you know about your company's finances is probably only a small part of the big picture.
Architecture firms are part of the service industry--they sell the intellectual output of their workers. There is little or no inventory or other assets that can be reduced to change the financial picture. After reducing travel and some frivolous internal expenses, the only tool left in the box is payroll reduction, paycuts or "reduction in force." (Incidently, that term "riffed" is used to show that the person who is now unemployed became so through no fault of his (or her) own.) Since the economy is cyclical, one way to survive is to make as much money as possible when times are good (get BIG) and then scale back when times are bad. That looks like what your company did. Some firms specialize in certain types of work that are somewhat less cyclical--medical, government, infrastructure, overseas. Their work tends to be less creative and glamorous, however.
Best of luck in moving on to something better!
To those of you who are still employed--keep up your good work, go in with a smile every day, become indispensible, groom yourself and dress professionally, work out your personal issues yourself--on your own time, don't whine or complain, get your accreditations (AIA, IIDA, LEED), always do your best, make sure deadlines are met, nurture and mentor junior employees, etc. In other words, become the foundation of the firm moving forward. There are no guarantees, but everyone wants to work with positive, friendly, talented co-workers.
If you were "picked off" by your boss, it may not have been "fair" but you should try to look at yourself and figure out why.
cm
You seem to have a lot of good advice for us...and I appreciate that. I also appreciate, as you put it, "people trying to help me get myself together"...this forum is quite therapeutic that way...to know that you're not alone out there, and a lot of people are in similar situations.
I'm not trying to blame anyone in general, but basically recounting my experience in my last job. This is FACT. If anyone on this thread has made a guess at which firm I am describing, they would also know this to be true. I am not embellishing or exaggerating in any way. This is EXACTLY the way it happened...it unfolded in front of everyone, and not one person who has faced the axe has come away with anything positive to say...but then again, as you say, all 40+ people who got laid off, should really try to figure out how it was somehow their fault...and absolve the management of everything else...
e,
I don't mean to generalize...like I said, J3's post got me riled up...and cm has tried a little bit to not be patronizing to the young and restless...and has tried to explain, albeit not as well as you have, about the flip side of this situation. As I mentioned on another post above, I know there are a lot of firms out there who have tried very, very hard to retain their employees...but tough economic times have forced their hands...I know of one principal in a foreign office of my former employer who had to be hospitalized with a nervous breakdown on the day of layoffs...so I know the kind of pain that conscientious, honest employers go through while handing out pink slips....
But to just say that "figure out why you got picked off...its probably you" is just out of line...especially in these times...
recently, i interviewed a young designer who relocated from the LA area. let go from a very high profile design firm. was one of about twenty of 100+. was asked to leave the studio in an hour. computer access was immediately denied. said firm was extremely sorry to let him go and would provide recommendation. considered sketches, drawings, presentation materials, and other project materials proprietary. showed me a few renderings he gleaned from their website and explained his involvement. we do not do the type of work in which he was experienced but, he was extremely good, flexible in his outlook, and desires to learn how to do do construction documents. we have a small project that might be starting soon and there may be a place for him.
most firms, mine included, sincerely desire that employees succeed and go to great lengths to make them the best they can be. we provide as much opportunity as they can handle, and then some. as we provide this support there is an implicit understanding employees reciprocate and do their best. we realize almost all will not be with us for the long term. some will stay a year or two, become disenchanted, and move on. others might stay five or ten years and more. despite how diligent, loyal, or sincere and how long some have been with us, current financial considerations require we evaluate all options. some may be let go. unless you have done so, you do not know how difficult it is to tell someone you have known and helped grow for ten years, they have to leave.
there are a few firms that feel they are doing you a favor by providing employment and others that make you feel you are just another 'body.' unless absolutely necessary avoid them.
no offense taken...just trying to cope...
Been doing this for 13+ years (but been around it all my life...dad is Architect) and like cm said many of the 40-60 crowd has gone...leaving people like me in their mid/late 30's to manage and make certain decisions that are very difficult...something I don't like or want to do. On one end I have my friends whom I trully care for, the other is the CFO asking for revenue projections so decisions can be made on staffing...try that for stress...
On top of that, I have been shipped off to another office in the middle of winter (I like the warmth of Miami) and miss my girlfriend, friends, and family.
I have really come to appreciate the dialogue in this thread, as there are many points of view and all can share.
to quote cm:
"best of luck everyone"
Most managers that are in their 40s, 50s, or 60s have been laid off themselves in previous downturns, so they truly do understand what it means.
With all due respect I don't think anyone can compare what's happening today to the inflationary downturns of the late 1970's or the hiccup in the early 90's. Many managers today started in the 70's and remember some lean times, but they also have just experienced 25+ years of very good times. The highs were very high and the lows weren't very low. Everyone is quite removed from serious hard times.
I'm not saying management is nonchalantly cutting staff for their own personal gain. Then again, from what I've witnessed there are two schools of thought for layoffs and a third wild card.
#1, first in first out. Cut the younger inexperienced staff, of which, I've heard managers say things like, "they don't have kids to feed" or "they'll be picked up quick because they work cheaper."
#2, cut expensive and not as productive senior staff. People that aren't 100% up to speed on the latest software, have high salary, experienced but tend to work slower.
#3, wild card - keep those that have perceived higher needs. Not staff that's better at their work, but staff that might have just had a kid, has an ongoing medical issue, single parent, etc. This one doesn't happen in "corporate" America but in smaller architecture firms emotions do take command when finance is not separated from personal relationships.
#1 & #2 is a style of management thinking. Hard to really get upset with either, it's just life. #3 is something I would get upset about. Job security should be on merit, not outside circumstances.
If someone in your firm wasn't sad to see you go, you might be the problem. Really!
I agree with this. Most of the original local layoffs that I'm familiar with have been "fat cutting." Unfortunately much of that has already happened and the real cutting is well underway.
"Architect willing to work for FREE!"
"I am a recent graduate from Syracuse University School of Architecture and I'm looking for work to gain experience. If your design firm located in New York City and is in need of an assistant then do not hesitate to contact me and i can work for you WITHOUT PAID. For anyone who is interested please contact me and I will send you my resume and portfolio. This is a win-win situation for both sides, so don't wait too long to make that call...... "
"I Will Work for Free!"
"Yes that's right. I will work for you for free! If after 4 weeks you are not completely convinced that I am a great asset to your company you can simply tell me to leave. However, if after 4 weeks you appreciate my hard work, industry knowledge and experience then we will talk about a full time position. It is basically a win-win situation for the both of us. Although I will not be compensated for those 4 weeks, and regardless if you do choose to hire me or let me go, I will have learned a great deal from the experience and you will have spent nothing in the process.
I am looking for a position as a construction Project Manager or Project Architect with a regional construction management, architectural design or real estate firm.
My most recent work experience is as a commercial construction Project Manager and prior to that I worked as a successful Designer and Project Architect for five years. During that time I worked on many commercial, municipal and residential out-of the ground projects. I have experience managing all phases of construction projects including preconstruction and cost estimating. I am familiar with Expedition Project Management software and I am OSHA trained. I have over 5 years of Auto CAD drafting experience.
I am a graduate of Drexel University. I have been in the design and construction industry for more than 8 years and possess a broad knowledge of design documentation and construction practices. I am well organized, detailed-oriented and have excellent planning and problem solving skills. I have a keen ability to work well under pressure and feel comfortable coordinating numerous activities and multiple groups of people. I believe my industry experience and intuitive nature allow me to anticipate and recognize potential situations such as design flaws, scheduling conflicts and budget concerns. I have a self-starter mentality about me that I've been told explains my proactive approach to the task or project at hand.
I am very excited about this opportunity and hope to hear from a prospective company soon. My resume and portfolio are available upon request. Just simply send me an email requesting it with a description of the position and your company name.
You get what you pay for. I'm sure whomever picks this guy up and he will be very happy craking out sub-par unprofitable work for each other and their clients.
this is already a deep recession and it's going to take the arch profession much longer to recover if this lasts beyond 2009. There might be a drastic shortage of project architects and project managers in 10 years when demand picks up if too many people leave the profession, just my guess since that's what happened b/c of the 90's.
It's hard though to tell those young optimistic and hopeful who are swamped in student loan debt, almost homeless, and ineligible in most states to get licensed (because they didn't finish IDP) to drop their promising trajectory and switch careers, especially when their heart IS in it even despite the more negative aspects of the profession. The profession cannot lose those kind of people.
I think working for free in an externship for one or two weeks is great for networking and beginning to establish connections, but working as an architect intern for free is not as good an idea. A better approach would be to work as a contract employee or work part time, but ask for some compensation. Also, join a local networking club like your university's or an AIA club and put your face out there.
In the realm of "working for free" my cousin (not in architecture, but design related field) was laid off back in November. She has had several job offers since then but all have paid Less than her unemployment benefits are currently paying.
She was paid well ~70k range and fully expected to find offers less than her old salary, but the offers are well below market rate in her region ~30k. She told me she is not going back to her starting salary right out of college over 10yrs ago. I don't blame her.
Times are bad but if we allow wage deflation in our field we're in for a rude awakening worse than a "lost generation" of architects.
let's all remember what's killing the profession right now: almost half or more of medium to large scale projects basically died or are on indefinite hold, across the entire u.s. that kind of stoppage is going to hurt anyone and everyone. trying to make decisions on who to keep or not is agonizing in some cases, maybe not so much in others.
the boom time is dead right now.
however, what does seem to be the case (at least where we are) is that small projects - i mean additions to homes, small scale commercial renovations, etc, - are still there. it's not going to feed the larger firms but it can feed an individual or two to get through this.
network like crazy among all your non-architectural friends. offer up that you do residential, even if you've never touched it in your life. print up a flyer offering your services and post it on every bulletin board around town. something will turn up. if you just want to wait for other job openings to come along, good luck. but there is some work there. it's just going to take a lot more effort and initiative to root it out. in the end, maybe you find something more fulfilling to do, maybe you just learn a whole other set of skills which will make you more valuable to a firm when you go back. either way, just keep moving...
I have been thinking, the people offering their work for free are not the whores, the firms taking the offers are the whores. May the IRS audit them and may all their clients dry up for doing the profession such an egregious injury.
Giving away professional services (unless it is to a charity) is both wrong and a huge disservice to the profession.
Instead of giving away design services why not work with your clients and structure compensation around getting paid in 60-90 days when things (hopefully) pick up.
At least a future billing date lets you potentially collect something for your efforts. I'm going this sort of thing now with a couple developers that I know simply could not pay even though they say they are able to. I'm charing my normal rate and they have agreed to pay my fee in full by 12/30/09.
Granted this does not help me pay my bills now but at least I have something I can leverage against them for future work or in court.
One summer while I was in college (1977) things were pretty tough for finding summer work. No work in an architects offices was to be had. I decided working construction would be a good experience, but I had no background or skills. I approached a developer doing urban historic renovations and volunteered to be be a laborer for a week for free, and if I proved my worth they would hire me, if not, that was it. I ended up working all summer for them, and being paid. I lugged bags of plaster up flights of stairs, assisted carpenters, demo'd walls, stripped paint from woodwork, hauled trash, framed walls, scraped mortar off of bricks to re-use, got shocked, cut, bruised, and ended up with coal dust in my pores, but I learned a lot. I never would have got the job if I had not offered to work for free for a week. And they gave me a great recommendation the following summer when I finally scored an interview in an architects office.
Sometimes you just have to market yourself a little differently. The person who is willing to work for a month for free will learn a lot more than the person who sits at home unemployed playing video games, and perhaps it will turn into a real gig.
HA HA!! One day they gave me some caustic paint stripper to use on an old mantle piece, and halfway thru I realized the reason my skin was burning was because the rubber gloves had dissolved in the paint thinner! And then there was the day they told me to demo a wall in a building and that the gas and electric was turned off. Seconds after smacking an old gas line left in a wall from an old Victorian gas light fixture the old house I was in was filled with gas shooting out of an active line. I must have been living right, because when I ran out into the street, the first vehicle that crossed my path was a gas company truck!! They had the gas off in a few minutes. Sometimes not even knowing what OSHA is can be a good thing.
As someone with 30 years experience, I think the economy is far weaker than a recession, and that the economic decline will continue unabated for another two or three years. Minimum. Suggest readers on this thread start reading the commercial real estate news and the business publication web-sites. And prepare for the worst.
I was just laid off last week. I am about 6-9 months away from completing IDP so the timing of this is really depressing. In my meeting with the head of architecture dept and the principal, I was told that they just did not have work that utilized my skills (mainly front end design work, I guess). However, I think if someone is a quality designer, they can be utilized at all phases since design issues truly exist at all phases...blah blah blah. Basically our workload was non-existent. One of our clients that supplied us with about 50% of our work put on a hiring and general construction freeze.
I guess what I am worried about is if being laid-off is going to look bad on a resume one day? I have been told at all stages of school and in all professions that I am a good designer and should have great references. However, will people wonder why I was the one to go?
Regarding the bigger scheme of things, I do not see the market improving for sometime, maybe 2-3 years. That means any chance at becoming licensed maybe 2-3, maybe 4 years out.
I think that most employers are not going to look down all that much (if at all) on a gap of employment from late 2008 to 2009 (-10?, 11?!?...) being that they will be older than you and remember what is going on right now.
6-9 months, eh? Try moving (or "moving") to a state where you can start your exams prior to finishing all your IDP requirements. Its a great way to signal to a future employer that you aren't taking this recession lying down.
in the 1970s (back then, it was baaaaad!) we did a ton of hotel interiors; suite upgrades, banquet room renovations, and back-of-house stuff. clients included sheraton and hilton. nothing fancy. learned a lot about how commercial kitchens work.
hotels are constantly vying for the fewer business and tourist dollars. they must spend money to make money. they are also setting themselves up for the rebound.
thought about working for free for about 10 seconds. decided networking was more profitable use of time and it was.
this was before email! visited or telephoned (mostly visited) almost every architectural office in town looking for work. left resumes with them all. eventually hired by firm i didn't visit or send resume. they got my resume from another firm. was with them for five years. best experience of career.
investigate professional organizations other than AIA in your town. attend the monthly meetings of CSI, IFMA, CMAA, AGCA, etc. meet folks and ask what projects might be coming up and who should you telephone or send your resume to. this is not the time to be shy.
the idp question is a really interesting one and hasn't really had to be tested in an economy like the one we are potentially facing.
i'd predict the efforts to make idp more self-directed (they allow some of that already) and a 'demonstration of knowledge' based, instead of time based, would benefit enormously from the focused push by interns and organizations alike. denying someone the chance to sit because they can't secure a job really doesn't seem fair.
is archvoices still intact enough to make a run at this? anyone involved with the nac (within aia) enough to push the issue?
Strawbeary, sorry to hear about the paycut. Keep in mind the internet might help you find work should you need to do so later - can you cut back on something else? But that's just my bias; of course you know what's best for you guys.
brivy: if you read through this whole thread you will find that nobody thinks a layoff in this time period is going to reflect badly on anyone's resume. This is affecting the entire profession, which is a relatively small community. With only 6 months left on your IDP, I'd suggest trying to find an old-timer, sole proprietor shop who is still busy enough, to take you on and sign your papers. Be very upfront that you need the working experience; I am sure there are some sole practitioners out there who would be willing to mentor you, though maybe at a pretty reduced pay rate. Just don't work for free!
interns/junior level architects 50% pay cuts and associates and principals 5% pay cuts.<---- so junior people do not need to live and pay bills, while the principals do? wow.... what kind of a theory is that?
Layoffs....layoffs......
Minimal animal - the last part of your story sounds familiar with something I just heard of and know has happened. Also with a firm of $$$ millions in revenue. Well let it go. Oh and of course its personal - being business is the bs excuse that they use to cover their asses.
J3's post got me a little riled up...no hard feelings, J3...your follow up post was much better...
To quote:
NEW YORK (AP) — To President Barack Obama, Wall Street's $18.4 billion in bonuses is "shameful." To thousands of bank employees who don't sit in corner offices, that money helps pay the bills.
Outrage over the bonuses reached as high as the White House this week following news that financial firms were rewarding employees even as they were being bailed out with billions of taxpayer dollars. The feelings are understandable: The average Wall Street bonus of $112,000 was about twice the average American's income.
I'm just wondering did anyone in architecture get a $112,000 Bonus this year?
Anybody receiving a bonus from a bailed out firm should be forced to forfeit or else face jail time for treason. It is an absolute outrage. There will be blood in the streets.
Most of you posters seem to be young and still innocent and naive...
While I understand your anger at your previous employers, I hope you realize the huge burden of being in upper management and having to make those very difficult decisions that result in laying people off.
Most managers that are in their 40s, 50s, or 60s have been laid off themselves in previous downturns, so they truly do understand what it means. It is agonizing to be forced to make decisions that hurt the very people that you have hired, nurtured, and invested time and money in--all the while, worrying about your own job, mortgage, kids in college, and seeing your life savings and retirement plans evaporate.
Even in good times, it is often partners who work 60+ hour weeks-- redmarking careless work, finishing projects that have no budget left, trying to collect from clients, chasing down new work to keep the staff busy and revenue up, dealing with employee issues, etc, etc, etc. If you hate your job now, it is best for you to find a different line of work, because there are challenges at every level.
If someone in your firm wasn't sad to see you go, you might be the problem. Really! There was great sadness, loss of sleep, and second-guessing in our last layoff. We want all those employees back, along with the work to keep them busy.
That said, I offer this advise.
Do not burn bridges, at any level. You never know who you may be working with next time around. The architecture world is very small and word spreads--the good word and the bad word. Do not lie, exaggerate, or take credit for work you didn't do--architects know one another and the work being done. Chances are they are a friend of the real designer. Don't steal files--IT IS ILLEGAL! 'Nuf said. Ask for permission before taking anything. If you worked for me, I would gladly give you whatever I could, including a glowing recommendation. Never know when you might be my boss!.
minimal animal, as an owner of my own firm and one that has worked for countless others, i do not think most bosses take the attitude that you describe. sure there are certainly the fair share of unsavory bosses out there. not doubt. but i believe most take on employees in good faith and conscience. i have never even worked for bosses who come close to matching your descriptions, and i have worked at a lot of places in a handful of different industries and been through several downturns in my career.
taking on an employee is a huge responsibility to an employer. a good employer that is. a good employer understands that their employee has dreams and goal of their own that they want to acheive. they have bills and debts. they want to save money for future, to take well needed vacations and to spend their hard earned savings on things that make their life important and meaningful. they often either have a family or want to build one. a good employer wants to provide as many benefits to their employees as they possibly can afford. they want to give as many vacation days as can be afforded as well as holidays and sick days. they want to help build 401Ks or SEPs if possible. they want to provide quality health insurance which is increasingly more difficult every year. they want to mentor them to help make them better professionals.
why? because good employers understand that if their employee is happy, taken care of, feels as though their thoughts and ideas are at least being heard and valued, they in turn will be happy. they will learn. they will perform better work, and they are eager to come to work and give 100% every day.
i'm sorry that you've had a run of bad employers, but do not assume that the majority of us are as you describe. we are not. we invest a lot of thought, effort, time and money into trying to make our businesses prosper in a meaningful way. meaningful to ourselves, our work, our clients, our employees and our community.
best of luck to you.
CM
I aggree with your comments, my bosses work very hard,
evenings and weekends, and one of my bosses came in after midnight to help me finish a spec for tender.
Architects in their 50's has been through the 80's and 90's recessions
and have seen the hard times before. Nobody wants to let their staff go, but if projects get cancelled they have unfortunately little choice but to make those tough descions.
I first graduated in during the 90's recession and had to live in three different cities in 5 years to find design work. I can understand if people don't want to move but sometimes that is the only option.
Good Luck out there!!
When things pick up again I suggest looking for two indicators when choosing to take a job with a firm.
#1 check the license status of the firm’s principals, most secretary of state websites have a search engine for disciplinary actions against individuals or businesses.
#2 if you can afford to wait then don’t take a job with a firm that has no one in the ALA or AIA both organizations have some specific ethics requirements and those extend to the treatment of employees. Membership in the chamber of commerce is not a substitute for recognition and membership in one of the two organizations representing design professionals.
All of the horrific experiences I encountered or heard about regarding layoffs and shady dealings have been with firms not associated with the AIA and or ALA. I have no experience dealing with the mega firms but even before this down turn, the studio culture or the rumors of the studio culture were a big turn off when I was first looking for work, word gets around and the firms that abuse their employees will eventually have a hard time filling their ranks with qualified dedicated design professionals.
i just have to say something about "mega firms"... yes there is a corporate culture, a board, a CEO, etc... but usually they are split into multiple studio types - and sometimes those studios are separated into sub-studios. those studios act like firms within themselves. sometimes the entire culture is entirely different from one studio to the next. the way you advance is different, your work hours can even be different, and certainly compensation can be different. so just because you work at XYZ mega firm, doesn't mean it's all the same.
i worked at the mega firm i was initially hired at because the actual individuals i would be working with were quality people. i didn't know what it was like at the LA, Shanghai, Tokyo, or any of the other offices. i decided to leave that firm to get a post-pro m.arch, and they gladly and willingly offered me any help they could give me- including help with my portfolios, making prints, binding, etc. and when i was ready to return, the VP of the studio i was originally in made a personal phone call to the senior VP of the studio i wanted to transfer to. all of the people i have worked with have been wonderful and i never felt like another number.
that being said- i agree it is hard for upper management to make difficult decisions about layoffs- even at mega firms- not just the small and mid-sized. there are so many misconceptions about large firms- but when you get right down to it, if you have found the right people to work with/for, it makes all the difference.
Good post, e.
M animal--it looks like a lot of people here are trying to help you get yourself together. Your bitterness and blaming are only hurting you so I pray you overcome them.
Architecture is a cyclical business. If you can't deal with that, find something stable, perhaps a government job. I doubt many people in any field are feeling very secure right now. It is a profoundly disturbing time, but it is an opportunity to examine our lives, our goals, our systems, and our values and learn better ways to do things in the future.
By the way--huge revenues are usually accompanied by huge expenses. Whatever you think you know about your company's finances is probably only a small part of the big picture.
Architecture firms are part of the service industry--they sell the intellectual output of their workers. There is little or no inventory or other assets that can be reduced to change the financial picture. After reducing travel and some frivolous internal expenses, the only tool left in the box is payroll reduction, paycuts or "reduction in force." (Incidently, that term "riffed" is used to show that the person who is now unemployed became so through no fault of his (or her) own.) Since the economy is cyclical, one way to survive is to make as much money as possible when times are good (get BIG) and then scale back when times are bad. That looks like what your company did. Some firms specialize in certain types of work that are somewhat less cyclical--medical, government, infrastructure, overseas. Their work tends to be less creative and glamorous, however.
Best of luck in moving on to something better!
To those of you who are still employed--keep up your good work, go in with a smile every day, become indispensible, groom yourself and dress professionally, work out your personal issues yourself--on your own time, don't whine or complain, get your accreditations (AIA, IIDA, LEED), always do your best, make sure deadlines are met, nurture and mentor junior employees, etc. In other words, become the foundation of the firm moving forward. There are no guarantees, but everyone wants to work with positive, friendly, talented co-workers.
If you were "picked off" by your boss, it may not have been "fair" but you should try to look at yourself and figure out why.
Again, best of look to everyone!!
Oops, Best of luck to everyone!
cm
You seem to have a lot of good advice for us...and I appreciate that. I also appreciate, as you put it, "people trying to help me get myself together"...this forum is quite therapeutic that way...to know that you're not alone out there, and a lot of people are in similar situations.
I'm not trying to blame anyone in general, but basically recounting my experience in my last job. This is FACT. If anyone on this thread has made a guess at which firm I am describing, they would also know this to be true. I am not embellishing or exaggerating in any way. This is EXACTLY the way it happened...it unfolded in front of everyone, and not one person who has faced the axe has come away with anything positive to say...but then again, as you say, all 40+ people who got laid off, should really try to figure out how it was somehow their fault...and absolve the management of everything else...
e,
I don't mean to generalize...like I said, J3's post got me riled up...and cm has tried a little bit to not be patronizing to the young and restless...and has tried to explain, albeit not as well as you have, about the flip side of this situation. As I mentioned on another post above, I know there are a lot of firms out there who have tried very, very hard to retain their employees...but tough economic times have forced their hands...I know of one principal in a foreign office of my former employer who had to be hospitalized with a nervous breakdown on the day of layoffs...so I know the kind of pain that conscientious, honest employers go through while handing out pink slips....
But to just say that "figure out why you got picked off...its probably you" is just out of line...especially in these times...
recently, i interviewed a young designer who relocated from the LA area. let go from a very high profile design firm. was one of about twenty of 100+. was asked to leave the studio in an hour. computer access was immediately denied. said firm was extremely sorry to let him go and would provide recommendation. considered sketches, drawings, presentation materials, and other project materials proprietary. showed me a few renderings he gleaned from their website and explained his involvement. we do not do the type of work in which he was experienced but, he was extremely good, flexible in his outlook, and desires to learn how to do do construction documents. we have a small project that might be starting soon and there may be a place for him.
most firms, mine included, sincerely desire that employees succeed and go to great lengths to make them the best they can be. we provide as much opportunity as they can handle, and then some. as we provide this support there is an implicit understanding employees reciprocate and do their best. we realize almost all will not be with us for the long term. some will stay a year or two, become disenchanted, and move on. others might stay five or ten years and more. despite how diligent, loyal, or sincere and how long some have been with us, current financial considerations require we evaluate all options. some may be let go. unless you have done so, you do not know how difficult it is to tell someone you have known and helped grow for ten years, they have to leave.
there are a few firms that feel they are doing you a favor by providing employment and others that make you feel you are just another 'body.' unless absolutely necessary avoid them.
no offense taken...just trying to cope...
Been doing this for 13+ years (but been around it all my life...dad is Architect) and like cm said many of the 40-60 crowd has gone...leaving people like me in their mid/late 30's to manage and make certain decisions that are very difficult...something I don't like or want to do. On one end I have my friends whom I trully care for, the other is the CFO asking for revenue projections so decisions can be made on staffing...try that for stress...
On top of that, I have been shipped off to another office in the middle of winter (I like the warmth of Miami) and miss my girlfriend, friends, and family.
I have really come to appreciate the dialogue in this thread, as there are many points of view and all can share.
to quote cm:
"best of luck everyone"
With all due respect I don't think anyone can compare what's happening today to the inflationary downturns of the late 1970's or the hiccup in the early 90's. Many managers today started in the 70's and remember some lean times, but they also have just experienced 25+ years of very good times. The highs were very high and the lows weren't very low. Everyone is quite removed from serious hard times.
I'm not saying management is nonchalantly cutting staff for their own personal gain. Then again, from what I've witnessed there are two schools of thought for layoffs and a third wild card.
#1, first in first out. Cut the younger inexperienced staff, of which, I've heard managers say things like, "they don't have kids to feed" or "they'll be picked up quick because they work cheaper."
#2, cut expensive and not as productive senior staff. People that aren't 100% up to speed on the latest software, have high salary, experienced but tend to work slower.
#3, wild card - keep those that have perceived higher needs. Not staff that's better at their work, but staff that might have just had a kid, has an ongoing medical issue, single parent, etc. This one doesn't happen in "corporate" America but in smaller architecture firms emotions do take command when finance is not separated from personal relationships.
#1 & #2 is a style of management thinking. Hard to really get upset with either, it's just life. #3 is something I would get upset about. Job security should be on merit, not outside circumstances.
If someone in your firm wasn't sad to see you go, you might be the problem. Really!
I agree with this. Most of the original local layoffs that I'm familiar with have been "fat cutting." Unfortunately much of that has already happened and the real cutting is well underway.
Ad on New York Craigslist.org http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/egr/1017569470.html
"Architect willing to work for FREE!"
"I am a recent graduate from Syracuse University School of Architecture and I'm looking for work to gain experience. If your design firm located in New York City and is in need of an assistant then do not hesitate to contact me and i can work for you WITHOUT PAID. For anyone who is interested please contact me and I will send you my resume and portfolio. This is a win-win situation for both sides, so don't wait too long to make that call...... "
Another Architect will Work for free! Those who will not work for free are screwed!
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/egr/1017407827.html
"I Will Work for Free!"
"Yes that's right. I will work for you for free! If after 4 weeks you are not completely convinced that I am a great asset to your company you can simply tell me to leave. However, if after 4 weeks you appreciate my hard work, industry knowledge and experience then we will talk about a full time position. It is basically a win-win situation for the both of us. Although I will not be compensated for those 4 weeks, and regardless if you do choose to hire me or let me go, I will have learned a great deal from the experience and you will have spent nothing in the process.
I am looking for a position as a construction Project Manager or Project Architect with a regional construction management, architectural design or real estate firm.
My most recent work experience is as a commercial construction Project Manager and prior to that I worked as a successful Designer and Project Architect for five years. During that time I worked on many commercial, municipal and residential out-of the ground projects. I have experience managing all phases of construction projects including preconstruction and cost estimating. I am familiar with Expedition Project Management software and I am OSHA trained. I have over 5 years of Auto CAD drafting experience.
I am a graduate of Drexel University. I have been in the design and construction industry for more than 8 years and possess a broad knowledge of design documentation and construction practices. I am well organized, detailed-oriented and have excellent planning and problem solving skills. I have a keen ability to work well under pressure and feel comfortable coordinating numerous activities and multiple groups of people. I believe my industry experience and intuitive nature allow me to anticipate and recognize potential situations such as design flaws, scheduling conflicts and budget concerns. I have a self-starter mentality about me that I've been told explains my proactive approach to the task or project at hand.
I am very excited about this opportunity and hope to hear from a prospective company soon. My resume and portfolio are available upon request. Just simply send me an email requesting it with a description of the position and your company name.
I look forward to hearing from you soon. "
We are whores and should stop pretending otherwise.
nothing good ever comes out of Craig's list
You get what you pay for. I'm sure whomever picks this guy up and he will be very happy craking out sub-par unprofitable work for each other and their clients.
Whatever happened to waiting tables?
this is already a deep recession and it's going to take the arch profession much longer to recover if this lasts beyond 2009. There might be a drastic shortage of project architects and project managers in 10 years when demand picks up if too many people leave the profession, just my guess since that's what happened b/c of the 90's.
It's hard though to tell those young optimistic and hopeful who are swamped in student loan debt, almost homeless, and ineligible in most states to get licensed (because they didn't finish IDP) to drop their promising trajectory and switch careers, especially when their heart IS in it even despite the more negative aspects of the profession. The profession cannot lose those kind of people.
I think working for free in an externship for one or two weeks is great for networking and beginning to establish connections, but working as an architect intern for free is not as good an idea. A better approach would be to work as a contract employee or work part time, but ask for some compensation. Also, join a local networking club like your university's or an AIA club and put your face out there.
"Whatever happened to waiting tables?"
HAH! I AM AN ARCHITECT! ...MY NOSTRIL FLARING KNOWS NO HEIGHTS!
I wouldn't have any experience waiting tables....
In the realm of "working for free" my cousin (not in architecture, but design related field) was laid off back in November. She has had several job offers since then but all have paid Less than her unemployment benefits are currently paying.
She was paid well ~70k range and fully expected to find offers less than her old salary, but the offers are well below market rate in her region ~30k. She told me she is not going back to her starting salary right out of college over 10yrs ago. I don't blame her.
Times are bad but if we allow wage deflation in our field we're in for a rude awakening worse than a "lost generation" of architects.
dude, waiting tables can be more lucrative than architecture...
and we picked up some nice beat up knoll chairs for a song on CL.
citizen, from what I've heard there are not waitstaff jobs available right now, either.
just to update: word on the street is that tvs in atlanta laid off 50ish people last thursday or friday. approx. 1/6th of the total office.
to address some of the anxieties on this thread:
let's all remember what's killing the profession right now: almost half or more of medium to large scale projects basically died or are on indefinite hold, across the entire u.s. that kind of stoppage is going to hurt anyone and everyone. trying to make decisions on who to keep or not is agonizing in some cases, maybe not so much in others.
the boom time is dead right now.
however, what does seem to be the case (at least where we are) is that small projects - i mean additions to homes, small scale commercial renovations, etc, - are still there. it's not going to feed the larger firms but it can feed an individual or two to get through this.
network like crazy among all your non-architectural friends. offer up that you do residential, even if you've never touched it in your life. print up a flyer offering your services and post it on every bulletin board around town. something will turn up. if you just want to wait for other job openings to come along, good luck. but there is some work there. it's just going to take a lot more effort and initiative to root it out. in the end, maybe you find something more fulfilling to do, maybe you just learn a whole other set of skills which will make you more valuable to a firm when you go back. either way, just keep moving...
to interject something positive in this thread i actually got an interview - next tuesday.
No one would hire me as a Table Dancer! Not even with my cloths on.
Good luck, MAnU... report back, please.
Even whore doesn't work for FREE!
I have been thinking, the people offering their work for free are not the whores, the firms taking the offers are the whores. May the IRS audit them and may all their clients dry up for doing the profession such an egregious injury.
PJN26: Agreed!
Giving away professional services (unless it is to a charity) is both wrong and a huge disservice to the profession.
Instead of giving away design services why not work with your clients and structure compensation around getting paid in 60-90 days when things (hopefully) pick up.
At least a future billing date lets you potentially collect something for your efforts. I'm going this sort of thing now with a couple developers that I know simply could not pay even though they say they are able to. I'm charing my normal rate and they have agreed to pay my fee in full by 12/30/09.
Granted this does not help me pay my bills now but at least I have something I can leverage against them for future work or in court.
One summer while I was in college (1977) things were pretty tough for finding summer work. No work in an architects offices was to be had. I decided working construction would be a good experience, but I had no background or skills. I approached a developer doing urban historic renovations and volunteered to be be a laborer for a week for free, and if I proved my worth they would hire me, if not, that was it. I ended up working all summer for them, and being paid. I lugged bags of plaster up flights of stairs, assisted carpenters, demo'd walls, stripped paint from woodwork, hauled trash, framed walls, scraped mortar off of bricks to re-use, got shocked, cut, bruised, and ended up with coal dust in my pores, but I learned a lot. I never would have got the job if I had not offered to work for free for a week. And they gave me a great recommendation the following summer when I finally scored an interview in an architects office.
Sometimes you just have to market yourself a little differently. The person who is willing to work for a month for free will learn a lot more than the person who sits at home unemployed playing video games, and perhaps it will turn into a real gig.
did you use OSHA equipment ? ;)
HA HA!! One day they gave me some caustic paint stripper to use on an old mantle piece, and halfway thru I realized the reason my skin was burning was because the rubber gloves had dissolved in the paint thinner! And then there was the day they told me to demo a wall in a building and that the gas and electric was turned off. Seconds after smacking an old gas line left in a wall from an old Victorian gas light fixture the old house I was in was filled with gas shooting out of an active line. I must have been living right, because when I ran out into the street, the first vehicle that crossed my path was a gas company truck!! They had the gas off in a few minutes. Sometimes not even knowing what OSHA is can be a good thing.
come to think about it isn't the year OSHA was founded? (hip hop and punk rock too)
when i was doing design build using: 'i know this isn't safe and i need my OSHA respirator' got me allot of, well environmental non-intoxication
plus that is the same year i started life ;)
As someone with 30 years experience, I think the economy is far weaker than a recession, and that the economic decline will continue unabated for another two or three years. Minimum. Suggest readers on this thread start reading the commercial real estate news and the business publication web-sites. And prepare for the worst.
I was just laid off last week. I am about 6-9 months away from completing IDP so the timing of this is really depressing. In my meeting with the head of architecture dept and the principal, I was told that they just did not have work that utilized my skills (mainly front end design work, I guess). However, I think if someone is a quality designer, they can be utilized at all phases since design issues truly exist at all phases...blah blah blah. Basically our workload was non-existent. One of our clients that supplied us with about 50% of our work put on a hiring and general construction freeze.
I guess what I am worried about is if being laid-off is going to look bad on a resume one day? I have been told at all stages of school and in all professions that I am a good designer and should have great references. However, will people wonder why I was the one to go?
Regarding the bigger scheme of things, I do not see the market improving for sometime, maybe 2-3 years. That means any chance at becoming licensed maybe 2-3, maybe 4 years out.
I think that most employers are not going to look down all that much (if at all) on a gap of employment from late 2008 to 2009 (-10?, 11?!?...) being that they will be older than you and remember what is going on right now.
6-9 months, eh? Try moving (or "moving") to a state where you can start your exams prior to finishing all your IDP requirements. Its a great way to signal to a future employer that you aren't taking this recession lying down.
professional gambler
somebody has work.
http://www.hotelchange.com/archive/090129.htm
in the 1970s (back then, it was baaaaad!) we did a ton of hotel interiors; suite upgrades, banquet room renovations, and back-of-house stuff. clients included sheraton and hilton. nothing fancy. learned a lot about how commercial kitchens work.
hotels are constantly vying for the fewer business and tourist dollars. they must spend money to make money. they are also setting themselves up for the rebound.
thought about working for free for about 10 seconds. decided networking was more profitable use of time and it was.
this was before email! visited or telephoned (mostly visited) almost every architectural office in town looking for work. left resumes with them all. eventually hired by firm i didn't visit or send resume. they got my resume from another firm. was with them for five years. best experience of career.
investigate professional organizations other than AIA in your town. attend the monthly meetings of CSI, IFMA, CMAA, AGCA, etc. meet folks and ask what projects might be coming up and who should you telephone or send your resume to. this is not the time to be shy.
The 20% paycut arrived. I no longer make enough to cover our bills, ready to get rid of the cell phone and high speed internet.
the idp question is a really interesting one and hasn't really had to be tested in an economy like the one we are potentially facing.
i'd predict the efforts to make idp more self-directed (they allow some of that already) and a 'demonstration of knowledge' based, instead of time based, would benefit enormously from the focused push by interns and organizations alike. denying someone the chance to sit because they can't secure a job really doesn't seem fair.
is archvoices still intact enough to make a run at this? anyone involved with the nac (within aia) enough to push the issue?
Strawbeary, sorry to hear about the paycut. Keep in mind the internet might help you find work should you need to do so later - can you cut back on something else? But that's just my bias; of course you know what's best for you guys.
brivy: if you read through this whole thread you will find that nobody thinks a layoff in this time period is going to reflect badly on anyone's resume. This is affecting the entire profession, which is a relatively small community. With only 6 months left on your IDP, I'd suggest trying to find an old-timer, sole proprietor shop who is still busy enough, to take you on and sign your papers. Be very upfront that you need the working experience; I am sure there are some sole practitioners out there who would be willing to mentor you, though maybe at a pretty reduced pay rate. Just don't work for free!
I heard of a firm that just gave all interns/junior level architects 50% pay cuts and associates and principals 5% pay cuts.
That makes a lot of sense!
Archmed- Who would be stupid enough to do that!
interns/junior level architects 50% pay cuts and associates and principals 5% pay cuts.<---- so junior people do not need to live and pay bills, while the principals do? wow.... what kind of a theory is that?
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