Archmed, that seems to be my firm's take as well. we actually just had a few people leave on their own accord right at the start of the new year. one was a principal, and the others were mid-level- so maybe that will help our particular office be able to avoid as many layoffs. i know they are coming though. especially because we had laid off people first before that other firm i was talking about had laid people off before. so now that firm has had two and we have only had one. it's really unsettling to think every day you go in that it might be your last. every single day i back up my work- because you know that as soon as you are let go they usually don't let you go back to your computer/files. they either escort you with HR, or they have you make a list. freaking ridiculous, like we're all children and we're going to steal the three-hole punch.
that seems to be a pretty cool setup you have, threshold.
"Action is the antidote to despair" seems to be my motto lately. we were planning to buy a house/rowhouse by July. the cost of housing has gone down quite a bit that it's actually more expensive for us to rent outside of DC than to just buy a rowhouse within the District. i guess that is actually the one thing that has kept me somewhat sane- because no matter if i'm at this firm now, or i'm at another job, my goal is to buy a house. so maybe i could have a somewhat more regular job with the government and still buy the house. basically that is what i'm looking to.
i saw an ad for a government agency hiring architects- and i read it aloud to my boyfriend, it said: "must be able to work some late nights and weekends"... my boyfriend said "oh, that doesn't sound too good, like you might not have much of a family life" i thought about it and then realized well shit, that's what i do now anyways! except there i would make 20k more. so maybe screw the "high design" bullshit for now... i need to feed my family!
Congrats, threshold. The variety of roles sounds like it will really add to your experience, plus you get to keep your job. I opted for a reasonably significant pay cut (and reduction in hours) to help ease the layoff situation at my work (It helped a little in the big scheme of things), and fought to keep some of my less experienced team members in the office. Thankfully, come the New Year, we are still all employed. I think firms can get numb to the effect these layoffs have on the remaining staff, and I had to say something.
All this at a time when I've been thinking of shifting out of architecture to some other design discipline for a while...
i wasn't at all surprised, just that i had a job for so long...
i'm kind of excited about it..since i've had a lot of things i've wanted to do, but haven't had the time. i also disliked the complacency i had with a job. i'm going to slowly look for work in architecture (and i may already have a temporary situation...) but i think mainly i'm going to try and sell my paintings and drawings for a while.
-i think i may also try to study for and take the ARE
-make a website for my work
-redo my portfolio and resume
-file my taxes early
-go to the inauguration
-work on a furniture line and it's graphics...something i've had on hold for years.
Sorry to hear it Lars, but glad to hear you'll have some cool things to fill the break.
And congrats to you Threshold! I think a lot about people in your situation/stage of life with families. I know if I'm cut its just me eating value menu and ramen, but I know you had more to care for and I'm glad things have worked out for the time.
i don;t know why people still mention this to this day. considering that most things now are based on the global economy, your job can get shipped over seas for less money.
if you're out of work, try to diversify your talents and look into industries that are not in architecture. as much as i would like to get my idp and licensed and all that, i'm not gonna starve in an industry that has sooo many issues.
Thanks all. And Minimal Animal, I think you will be surprised what can happen if you step out of your comfort zone and be open to new challenges. I started right after my first post here to let the people who were professionally closest to me know about my job concerns (it was a tricky decision because the firm did not/does not want to appear like there is any slowdown). Almost immediately small opportunities started to present themselves: 2 websites, a master bathroom renovation and a commercial foyer addition. However the construction management job could be long term if things don’t get better (RI is now #1 in unemployment… Yep :b:, worse than Detroit.) and it offers health insurance (my wife is a self employed graphic designer/artist).
50 people laid off from Burt Hill in Pittsburgh last week. Work overseas in Dubai slowing down. They laid off 15 last month too. Also another firm closed its Pittsburgh office, laid off 9. Perkins and Eastman supposedly laid off 15 or so as well in the past three months.
Threshold's post should be cross-linked to the "OPTIMISM" thread.
That combination of 1) creative thinking, (2) communication with colleagues--inside and outside the firm, and (3) willingness to take action sets a great example for the rest of us.
yep. I know. HKS had another big national layoff last week.
Shalom Baranes and Torti Gallas made moves locally.
It's ugly out there. And I am familiar about the feelings that you brought up earlier. I didn't go through the downturn in the early 90's. But, I went through the dot.com bust and the start of the condo bust in FL in 2007. This just seems different.
Archmed, you don't have to read this thread if it ticks you off. The bleeding isn't going to stop simply by bailing everyone out. We need to let the companies fail that aren't prepared for this and start from scratch. There are home builders that have yet to close shop completely, as one did recently in Chicago. That's my solution to your request to "make the f cking bullshit go away."
I've been unemployed for a while now and I can say that I'm much happier than some of my friends who go into work fearing if today is "the" day. My initial sequence went something like this: being pissed off at the world followed by a short lived happiness with sleeping in and chocolate cupcakes, paired with mad optimistic job searching, then disillusion with society, finally followed by the rejection of it all and the return of happiness.
It is what it is and until you accept it, life will really suck. Make the most of it.
Anyway, Lucien Lagrange in Chicago had some laid off last week...I was surprised that residential development lasted that long.
what's weird is i see quite a few job offers here in nyc. i'm going to start looking in a few weeks or so...but right now i don't want to work in architecture. for those that have started looking... have people looked at places like consulting for architects?
hope all's well for everyone out there... i agree with punch... i'm definitely happier without my job. i've been so productive since i got laid off. i feel energized and have sooooo much creative energy. i finished two paintings yesterday. now if only i could start making money
Punch thanks for sharing your layoff sequence, it sounds familiar, but I have to ask: how are you paying your rent right now? What is the safety net that is keeping you able to feel happy? Or do you have no safety net and are just enjoying the freefall?
Punch, I'm gainfully employed right now ::knock on wood:: but I don't feel any better than those who have lost their jobs. As others pointed out, each day I walk into the office I feel like it could be my last... This sucks. I just feel that I want someone to push the fast-forward button and make this nightmare go away already.
BTW, I can confirm Smithgroup DC had a layoff friday. Not sure the exact numbers, but that's the news coming out of the largest firm in DC.
Liberty Bell, I'm fortunate in the sense that I'm a young, healthy, recent graduate and I'm able to live in my parents house. They're very supportive so my expenses are minimal. I was extremely bitter for quite some time as I *never* got a job offer after completing my masters last may, but I'm past that. There honestly isn't much of a safety net, I've just completely cut back on almost everything...no eating out anymore, "grabbing drinks" doesn't really exist unless there's an occasion, I don't travel as much, etc. Everything has become extremely simplified. Income is at a bare minimum, but I've learned to swallow my ego and do anything, shoveling snow, babysitting, random projects people need around the house.
Along with many other investors, I've lost 40% of what I had in the markets, but I'm okay with that at this point because I can't change that. Plus, most of that portfolio is high risk, high return so I'm positive in a few years that'll be back to making appropriate double-digit yearly returns.
I'm not necessarily enjoying the freefall, it's just I've taken the approach of "I don't care." It is what it is and I'm not going to get upset, but rather use this time to better myself.
Archmed, good to hear you're employed and keep your head up. Unfortunately, there is no fast-forward button. We'll have to stomach the likely fall of Chrysler, which will bring more unemployment, further foreclosures. Without a stable housing market, this economy isn't going to move anywhere in the right direction. Plus, the 1 million+ people laid off in the past 2-3 months, how large is their nest egg? I'm sure not all of them can continue car payments, a mortgage, other bills for more than a few months until they're stuff gets repoed and foreclosed which will bring this economy down further. This truely is a mess, but we'll all somehow find a way to get through it.
Thanks for answering, Punch. I was wondering if you were on unemployment - which I think anyone who has been laid off should try to get - or not. Not having been employed, I guess you're not eligible, as I'm not since I'm self-employed. There was a story on NPR today with three recent grads who cannot find jobs at all and at least one of them was getting help from her parents. You definitely are not alone in that situation!
i think people in general are much more sympathetic to those who have been laid off or can't find work in the profession than you would imagine. i have all manner of friends (experience wise) who have been laid off, former students who can't get hired... this recession will end up deeply affecting our profession. my optimistic take is to hope it's like a well done pruning - you have to make deep cuts to ultimately improve the long term vitality of the plant.
right now, we need all of you guys who are unemployed to be the dreamers for us - figure out how to make a zero energy house. figure out how to redevelop our suburbs in a meaningful and sustainable way. dream big for all of us. if you're stuck for the time being, make the most of it. the rest of us are too busy scrambling to just find the next job to do too much dreaming right now...
Liberty Bell....problem for us is there is no unemployment we just shut the door because were the owners if it comes to that. I'm keeping positive.
However today I had a carpenter call who sounded
really sounded like he was at witts end. He told me he would do anykind of handyman kind of work if I had it or I could direct him to someone. I really felt it for the guy you could just hear the pain in his voice.
I did get a call on Sunday morning for a small addition on a house and another today. So I'm keeping positive.
I can relate to how the unemployed are possibly happier than the employed. Every day co-workers and I wonder when the axe will fall. And as usual there is very little transparency from upper management. But, like anyone does when their job is on the line, we work hard as we can on what little we still have going on, hoping that's just enough to stay on the payroll.
As for a safety net, my spouse's job is fairly secure, and so long as we have that income the mortgage would get paid. I would even welcome something like a one month unpaid furlough, so long as my job is waiting for me when I come back. After some very busy and stress filled years a long break would be nice. Although without a job to come back to I might feel otherwise about it.
What worries me is the pay. I read this AIA survey architect's salaries are up 30% over 15 years. This is utter BS. I and everyone I know in architecture, licensed but under 40, are earning an adjust -20-30% from architect's salaries at the end of the 80's. Despite comming off the biggest boom in history almost no growth was registered in compensation. Where was this 30% made? With most of us facing the prospect of layoffs or are firms being one job away from ruin, that 30% would have come in handy if only for equity to help start a new firm from ashes which is usualy how the cycle goes. But this cycle unlike the previous, the next generation has little money to make any moves - this may be the real issue with the profession and larger economy as a whole. Whos going to buy all those stocks to get the prices back up? Whos going to buy all the houses? Whos going to start new businesses when they have nothing to borrow against besides student loans?
I have a few questions in line with all these layoffs. Is anyone using e-recruitment companys? I've always wondered the success of them, I have signed up for a quite a few and have seen a significant increase in jobs being advertised since the official mention of the recession.
Actually, this is what the 2008 compensation survey said:
"Average compensation for architecture positions, when factoring in base salaries as well as overtime, bonuses and incentive compensation, increased by more than 5.7% per year on average over the three year period, the strongest record of growth since the AIA began collecting compensation data in 1990. ...In recent years, compensation staff levels for architectural staff positions have significantly outpaced those in the broader economy. "
The study goes on to say that the average architecture compensation is 50% higher than in 1999.
Part of the problem owners of firms have right now is that in order to hire staff a year ago, you were competing with everyone in town and at times had to offer salaries much higher than could be justified by the fees we are able to charge, or we gave raises that were a big jump in order to keep people from switching to another firm. It is interesting to note that most of the firms (at least where I live) that were driving up the wages by offering artificially high salaries are the first with the mass layoffs. For some firms, those "overpaid" (relative to their peers) staff people are easy targets for downsizing.
My latest staff problem is that in the past we have been very generous with bonuses and pension plan contributions. This year I am tending to hold onto the cash to make sure we can meet payroll and keep people employed. As much as I told people that bonuses and pension plans were based on profit, they are now feeling like it was part of base salary, and not happy with a reduction in their pension plan contribution. And as far as the bonuses, many of them used it to pay off debt they accumulated in anticipation of getting a bonus instead of thinking of the bonus as money to use for a nest egg or some other special thing.
And by the way, architecture firms as a business are fortunately pretty low entry costs versus many businesses (retail, restaurant, manufacturing, etc.) You can start a firm on $1000 plus a computer if you have some clients willing to give you your first few jobs, and can create a steady stream of work. The issue for most start ups is getting that steady stream of work, and right now it is even harder to do. I think the lack of work versus lack of capital is the real problem.
archie - what Im saying is average compensation for most architects outside of maybe very large firms in Chicago, the salaries are the same as 2001, maybe 5% higher. Maybe its different other places or maybe I work for too small of boutique places but I cant find a single person here to back this up.
Yikes, that is not my experience here in Pittsburgh. Wages have gone up significantly in the last 3 years, in excess of the cost of living. I would say they have gone up an average of 5 to 6 %, matching the aia study, where cost of living is around 3 to 4%. The salary survey the AIA does covers every state and every size firm, so perhaps it is just your firm. I can't guess as to why this would be- the economy the last three years was pretty good to architects, so firms should have been at least able to keep up with cost of living. Did they raise their billing rates, and if not, why not?
30% over 15 years is 2% annual increase
50% over 10 years is 5% annual increase
I would argue that neither has kept pace with real inflation in the economy. Not that other fields have either, but the way the AIA pumps a 5.7% rate is quite misleading.
Problem now is that with all the layoffs, competition for jobs is ridiculous and desperate people will be willing to work for next to nothing causing a very destructive deflationary spiral in architectural wages.
Hopefully this downturn drives a lot of the surplus staff out of the market all together so when a recovery does occur those of us left will be able to negotiate livable wages.
evilp - I agree that wages have been mostly flat since 2001. Read an article in a major magazine recently (forbes/fortune?) that said the post 911 recovery was not seen in take home wages. The only thing that kept the American consumer going was housing inflation, cash out equity, etc. See where that got us.
the AIA survey and any other survey have flaws in it. mainly every firm doesn't respond. depending on the cross-section it might even schew the results.
for example, i lived in orlando for five years. My salary increased 26% over that span. but, housing prices doubled. maybe even tripled. and my workload increased and my satifisfaction decreased because we were getting quality new hires based on the old salaries that were being offered.
i moved out of state and got a significant increase. about half of it was eaten up in the cost of living increase.
That was my point. If someone is making $38,000 now, and they make a couple of thousand more than you did ($36,000) then that is a 5.5% increase not a 3.5% increase. If they made a YEARLY 3.5% increase, then that kept up with cost of living.
archie, if a fresh intern is earning only $2k more in 2009 than what the equivalent was paid in 2000 that's less than one percent increases annually going $36k to $38k.
Sure, that's about a 5.5% increase total, but if inflation is 3%/year that would be a compounded 27% total increase in 9 years, aka $47k in 2009.
Most fresh interns are not earning that, thus why I think starting salaries have been flat. Would argue salaries for established architects are also flat because I haven't acheived a total 27% rise over 9 years, although better than 5.5% thankfully.
The only hope for good wage increases over the past decade have been via job hopping or major promotions. The latter I think happens mostly to keep people from job hopping, or from people threatening to do so.
My spouse works in a different field (thankfully) and has seen consistent 5%+ raises over the last 5 years, vastly better than my wage increases. Then again, while a 25% increases in pay might sound big, we by no means are living a life of luxury we didn't have 5 years ago. All it has done is helped us maintain what we enjoyed back then. Most people I know have cut back their lifestyle in the past 5 years.
I don't mean to harp on this topic but without healthy wage increases that out pace inflation we will continually devalue this profession.
I actually agree, I have been wondering for awhile why wages seemed to go nowhere in this biz.
archie, that is bittersweet news to hear... the single reason I am not currently living in Pittsburgh is that back when I was scouting jobs there, the average salary was much too low to support my student loan payments. Perhaps that is no longer the case...?
I fear the low wages might do the opposite. I fear with all the desperate people driving wages down, those talented self respecting individuals will not accept these artificially low wages and leave the profession for one which will compensate you for a living wage... at the moment I find myself being tempted to leave.
And not just to make MORE money, just to make enough to live, I'm having a hard time finding work at the moment. Everyone I've spoken with who is hiring is receiving hundreds of applicants even for the most menial of drafting jobs for low wages, so these guys are always able to find someone willing to work cheaper. For $8/hr I'd rather work at McDonalds.
in light of threshold's proactive approach... i decided that i would work on my own plan B. so every night i've been scoping out jobs both in and out of architecture- some masterplanning, ca, etc as well as architecture and community involvement. i figure it can only make me feel a bit more relieved... and so far it's working. we also came up with a few ways that if we HAD to refocus our finances in light of a layoff that there were several things we could do. and we would most definitely take advantage of unemployment. maybe even rent out a room. do what you gotta do.
laughing at the idiots on american idol definitely helped to lighten the mood.
also found out that some firms are choosing to let go of people "they just don't like" and blame it on the economy. nothing to do with job performance or lack of projects... instead, laying off people just because some idiot made it to upper management and is mad that the VP likes you more than him.
straight outta kindergarten.
wage increases are wildly varied now in part because the one direct link we had to an inflationary indicator was severed back in the 70's. back then, there was literally a little black book the aia published which 'suggested' architects fees relative to the cost of construction and type of project. it was largely taken as gospel by most clients, so when hard material costs (and soft labor costs) went up, fees went up accordingly. salaries, by and large, tended to keep pace. once the aia was sued by the feds to stop publishing the guide, there was no more enforcement of the fees and undercutting became more of the norm as owners shifted from qualifications (or connections, or whatever) based selections to setting us against each other (this was mostly confined to the commercial realm, but it still had a huge effect). so, basically, once upon a time we had a kind of 'lock' in place on fees, much like the realtors do now, but we lost it.
throw in the shift, in tax law, in the early 80's which accelerated the depreciation rate of buildings to 7 or 8 years, and you had more incentive for owners to seek the cheapest building with the highest valuation. part of that 'cheap' was to reduce the fees.
not all this is bad - there is an argument to be made that these forces helped force us to begin to figure out the real 'value' we can bring to our work. many firms that are just 'get along' firms are going to have a hard time competing in this environment, while many will figure out how to create more value for their services. i know plenty of firms who can generate roughly 200k per employee in fees each year. firms like frank o. (put aside what you think about the work) can generate cutting edge work and huge fees on top of that.
sorry - know this is a diversion from the topic at hand, but this took up quite a few posts. seemed worthy of some broader perspective.
one thing i forgot to point out: when fees became decoupled from the actual costs of construction, it has made it hard for many clients to accept that correlation on face value. so, they are working hard to keep 'real' fees as consistent (and stagnant) as they can, over time. we've seen some try to use revit and other perceived time-saving software packages as a way to say 'well, you can do it in less time, so it should cost less fee'. we don't agree, but not all of our peers do. if someone will pass on some savings and that's the prime driver, it will push down fees to some degree. we've also priced ourselves out of many projects. it's a tough balancing act and it does trickle back down to what kinds of salaries we can offer to our employees.
to answer your question - no - i still have a job yet monster still contacts me about a post i made there in 2002. Also somehow via monster my name got sent to every slimey archi-temp agency around chicago. Great if you like the idea of archi-pimps taking 2/3 what they are selling you for.
So one interesting thing I learned about unemployment is that you can still make earnings and get at least half of your benefits as long as you work under 40 hours a week. And are making less than the total benefits awarded.
So how low will you go, can you go?
I wonder if I should flat out say that I can work for a year with 10-20k full time salary in NYC and live rent free with family just to keep putting on the IDP hours.
For those of us without specific IDP units, does it make sense to really underbid ourselves so we can get those units done and get on with the ARE?
I am beginning to think of IDP as and extension of school. Maybe I just need to keep that in mind when offering or accepting wages way below that needed to cover cost of living, this is still education and I am still learning.
In many places you can’t just hang out a shingle and call your self an Architect. Architect is a title act just like MD or lawyer.
And is anyone frustrated with the cheap job search sites that come up with many IT Architecture jobs, not real Architecture jobs. I also don’t like people in the media referring to complex financial systems as “Architecture” this could create some bad associations down the road.
totally agree pjn about frustrations with IT Architecture/etc... and good info on the unemployment. i read a really good article the other day about what to do if you're let go:
#1. get a reference letter before you walk out of the door that very day and
#2. don't exact revenge against the boss or say anything that will harm your rep with them- esp because architecture is a small, small community
i hadn't really thought of the reference letter thing before. but i would definitely ask for that. i'm trying to compile all of my idp hours now and get them signed off before anything tragic happens
wage increases are wildly varied now in part because the one direct link we had to an inflationary indicator was severed back in the 70's. back then, there was literally a little black book the aia published which 'suggested' architects fees relative to the cost of construction and type of project.
Interesting. That was before my time, but might explain why architects generally were better compensated 30+ years ago.
I would love to be more involved in the contract negotiation. I know what my budget is and have to manage costs, but largely do not participate in the original negotiation. In my experience it seems upper management keeps that task very close to their chest. Like that's the one task that separates them from the rest of the staff. I'm just curious as to how we might be able to put pressure on clients for higher fees. Unfortunately, in today's economy I know for a fact some big clients are putting reverse pressure on us to lower our fees. I do think there should be a point where one has to be willing to turn down the work, if nothing else to claim some dignity.
mantaray, salaries are still pretty low in pittsburgh compared to the rest of the country. Most people coming from other cities are shocked. On the other hand, the cost of living, especially housing, is incredibly low, which makes it a very livable city (ranked #1 in the country last year, actually. ) For example, my son, who is a grad student doing research makes $24,000 a year, and was able to buy a fairly nice 3 bedroom house close to the universities, and lives pretty well on his income with no new debt. He looked at schools in california, atlanta and canada that all offered the same salary, but he would not have been able to cover his expenses in those cities.
Layoffs....layoffs......
Archmed, that seems to be my firm's take as well. we actually just had a few people leave on their own accord right at the start of the new year. one was a principal, and the others were mid-level- so maybe that will help our particular office be able to avoid as many layoffs. i know they are coming though. especially because we had laid off people first before that other firm i was talking about had laid people off before. so now that firm has had two and we have only had one. it's really unsettling to think every day you go in that it might be your last. every single day i back up my work- because you know that as soon as you are let go they usually don't let you go back to your computer/files. they either escort you with HR, or they have you make a list. freaking ridiculous, like we're all children and we're going to steal the three-hole punch.
that seems to be a pretty cool setup you have, threshold.
"Action is the antidote to despair" seems to be my motto lately. we were planning to buy a house/rowhouse by July. the cost of housing has gone down quite a bit that it's actually more expensive for us to rent outside of DC than to just buy a rowhouse within the District. i guess that is actually the one thing that has kept me somewhat sane- because no matter if i'm at this firm now, or i'm at another job, my goal is to buy a house. so maybe i could have a somewhat more regular job with the government and still buy the house. basically that is what i'm looking to.
i saw an ad for a government agency hiring architects- and i read it aloud to my boyfriend, it said: "must be able to work some late nights and weekends"... my boyfriend said "oh, that doesn't sound too good, like you might not have much of a family life" i thought about it and then realized well shit, that's what i do now anyways! except there i would make 20k more. so maybe screw the "high design" bullshit for now... i need to feed my family!
Congrats, threshold. The variety of roles sounds like it will really add to your experience, plus you get to keep your job. I opted for a reasonably significant pay cut (and reduction in hours) to help ease the layoff situation at my work (It helped a little in the big scheme of things), and fought to keep some of my less experienced team members in the office. Thankfully, come the New Year, we are still all employed. I think firms can get numb to the effect these layoffs have on the remaining staff, and I had to say something.
All this at a time when I've been thinking of shifting out of architecture to some other design discipline for a while...
so add my name to the list of the unemployed.
i wasn't at all surprised, just that i had a job for so long...
i'm kind of excited about it..since i've had a lot of things i've wanted to do, but haven't had the time. i also disliked the complacency i had with a job. i'm going to slowly look for work in architecture (and i may already have a temporary situation...) but i think mainly i'm going to try and sell my paintings and drawings for a while.
if any of you are looking for artwork let me know.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/larslarson/
-i think i may also try to study for and take the ARE
-make a website for my work
-redo my portfolio and resume
-file my taxes early
-go to the inauguration
-work on a furniture line and it's graphics...something i've had on hold for years.
threshold, your initiative is admirable. I just wish I had the means to do what you did....great job.
Sorry to hear it Lars, but glad to hear you'll have some cool things to fill the break.
And congrats to you Threshold! I think a lot about people in your situation/stage of life with families. I know if I'm cut its just me eating value menu and ramen, but I know you had more to care for and I'm glad things have worked out for the time.
there's no such thing as job security......
i don;t know why people still mention this to this day. considering that most things now are based on the global economy, your job can get shipped over seas for less money.
if you're out of work, try to diversify your talents and look into industries that are not in architecture. as much as i would like to get my idp and licensed and all that, i'm not gonna starve in an industry that has sooo many issues.
to each his/her own...
just saying
Yep, glad to hear it threshold. And lars, I commented on TC, it's great to hear how positive you are.
Thanks all. And Minimal Animal, I think you will be surprised what can happen if you step out of your comfort zone and be open to new challenges. I started right after my first post here to let the people who were professionally closest to me know about my job concerns (it was a tricky decision because the firm did not/does not want to appear like there is any slowdown). Almost immediately small opportunities started to present themselves: 2 websites, a master bathroom renovation and a commercial foyer addition. However the construction management job could be long term if things don’t get better (RI is now #1 in unemployment… Yep :b:, worse than Detroit.) and it offers health insurance (my wife is a self employed graphic designer/artist).
Again, be proactive.
just got word our project is on indefinite hold - due to municipality infrastructure issues. trying to be positive and hope it comes back.
50 people laid off from Burt Hill in Pittsburgh last week. Work overseas in Dubai slowing down. They laid off 15 last month too. Also another firm closed its Pittsburgh office, laid off 9. Perkins and Eastman supposedly laid off 15 or so as well in the past three months.
Threshold's post should be cross-linked to the "OPTIMISM" thread.
That combination of 1) creative thinking, (2) communication with colleagues--inside and outside the firm, and (3) willingness to take action sets a great example for the rest of us.
I really don't want to read this goddamn thread anymore.
The news just keeps getting worse and no one is doing anything to make it stop.
Someone needs to step up make this fucking bullshit go away. I don't give a rats ass what it takes.
because of a couple of the things that happened locally last week Archmed?
No, because it's happening everywhere, tidal.
yep. I know. HKS had another big national layoff last week.
Shalom Baranes and Torti Gallas made moves locally.
It's ugly out there. And I am familiar about the feelings that you brought up earlier. I didn't go through the downturn in the early 90's. But, I went through the dot.com bust and the start of the condo bust in FL in 2007. This just seems different.
Archmed, you don't have to read this thread if it ticks you off. The bleeding isn't going to stop simply by bailing everyone out. We need to let the companies fail that aren't prepared for this and start from scratch. There are home builders that have yet to close shop completely, as one did recently in Chicago. That's my solution to your request to "make the f cking bullshit go away."
I've been unemployed for a while now and I can say that I'm much happier than some of my friends who go into work fearing if today is "the" day. My initial sequence went something like this: being pissed off at the world followed by a short lived happiness with sleeping in and chocolate cupcakes, paired with mad optimistic job searching, then disillusion with society, finally followed by the rejection of it all and the return of happiness.
It is what it is and until you accept it, life will really suck. Make the most of it.
Anyway, Lucien Lagrange in Chicago had some laid off last week...I was surprised that residential development lasted that long.
what's weird is i see quite a few job offers here in nyc. i'm going to start looking in a few weeks or so...but right now i don't want to work in architecture. for those that have started looking... have people looked at places like consulting for architects?
hope all's well for everyone out there... i agree with punch... i'm definitely happier without my job. i've been so productive since i got laid off. i feel energized and have sooooo much creative energy. i finished two paintings yesterday. now if only i could start making money
Punch thanks for sharing your layoff sequence, it sounds familiar, but I have to ask: how are you paying your rent right now? What is the safety net that is keeping you able to feel happy? Or do you have no safety net and are just enjoying the freefall?
This is a serious question, BTW.
Punch, I'm gainfully employed right now ::knock on wood:: but I don't feel any better than those who have lost their jobs. As others pointed out, each day I walk into the office I feel like it could be my last... This sucks. I just feel that I want someone to push the fast-forward button and make this nightmare go away already.
BTW, I can confirm Smithgroup DC had a layoff friday. Not sure the exact numbers, but that's the news coming out of the largest firm in DC.
Liberty Bell, I'm fortunate in the sense that I'm a young, healthy, recent graduate and I'm able to live in my parents house. They're very supportive so my expenses are minimal. I was extremely bitter for quite some time as I *never* got a job offer after completing my masters last may, but I'm past that. There honestly isn't much of a safety net, I've just completely cut back on almost everything...no eating out anymore, "grabbing drinks" doesn't really exist unless there's an occasion, I don't travel as much, etc. Everything has become extremely simplified. Income is at a bare minimum, but I've learned to swallow my ego and do anything, shoveling snow, babysitting, random projects people need around the house.
Along with many other investors, I've lost 40% of what I had in the markets, but I'm okay with that at this point because I can't change that. Plus, most of that portfolio is high risk, high return so I'm positive in a few years that'll be back to making appropriate double-digit yearly returns.
I'm not necessarily enjoying the freefall, it's just I've taken the approach of "I don't care." It is what it is and I'm not going to get upset, but rather use this time to better myself.
Archmed, good to hear you're employed and keep your head up. Unfortunately, there is no fast-forward button. We'll have to stomach the likely fall of Chrysler, which will bring more unemployment, further foreclosures. Without a stable housing market, this economy isn't going to move anywhere in the right direction. Plus, the 1 million+ people laid off in the past 2-3 months, how large is their nest egg? I'm sure not all of them can continue car payments, a mortgage, other bills for more than a few months until they're stuff gets repoed and foreclosed which will bring this economy down further. This truely is a mess, but we'll all somehow find a way to get through it.
Thanks for answering, Punch. I was wondering if you were on unemployment - which I think anyone who has been laid off should try to get - or not. Not having been employed, I guess you're not eligible, as I'm not since I'm self-employed. There was a story on NPR today with three recent grads who cannot find jobs at all and at least one of them was getting help from her parents. You definitely are not alone in that situation!
i think people in general are much more sympathetic to those who have been laid off or can't find work in the profession than you would imagine. i have all manner of friends (experience wise) who have been laid off, former students who can't get hired... this recession will end up deeply affecting our profession. my optimistic take is to hope it's like a well done pruning - you have to make deep cuts to ultimately improve the long term vitality of the plant.
right now, we need all of you guys who are unemployed to be the dreamers for us - figure out how to make a zero energy house. figure out how to redevelop our suburbs in a meaningful and sustainable way. dream big for all of us. if you're stuck for the time being, make the most of it. the rest of us are too busy scrambling to just find the next job to do too much dreaming right now...
Liberty Bell....problem for us is there is no unemployment we just shut the door because were the owners if it comes to that. I'm keeping positive.
However today I had a carpenter call who sounded
really sounded like he was at witts end. He told me he would do anykind of handyman kind of work if I had it or I could direct him to someone. I really felt it for the guy you could just hear the pain in his voice.
I did get a call on Sunday morning for a small addition on a house and another today. So I'm keeping positive.
meh, a year ago you couldn't even get that carpenter to return your call.
I can relate to how the unemployed are possibly happier than the employed. Every day co-workers and I wonder when the axe will fall. And as usual there is very little transparency from upper management. But, like anyone does when their job is on the line, we work hard as we can on what little we still have going on, hoping that's just enough to stay on the payroll.
As for a safety net, my spouse's job is fairly secure, and so long as we have that income the mortgage would get paid. I would even welcome something like a one month unpaid furlough, so long as my job is waiting for me when I come back. After some very busy and stress filled years a long break would be nice. Although without a job to come back to I might feel otherwise about it.
What worries me is the pay. I read this AIA survey architect's salaries are up 30% over 15 years. This is utter BS. I and everyone I know in architecture, licensed but under 40, are earning an adjust -20-30% from architect's salaries at the end of the 80's. Despite comming off the biggest boom in history almost no growth was registered in compensation. Where was this 30% made? With most of us facing the prospect of layoffs or are firms being one job away from ruin, that 30% would have come in handy if only for equity to help start a new firm from ashes which is usualy how the cycle goes. But this cycle unlike the previous, the next generation has little money to make any moves - this may be the real issue with the profession and larger economy as a whole. Whos going to buy all those stocks to get the prices back up? Whos going to buy all the houses? Whos going to start new businesses when they have nothing to borrow against besides student loans?
I have a few questions in line with all these layoffs. Is anyone using e-recruitment companys? I've always wondered the success of them, I have signed up for a quite a few and have seen a significant increase in jobs being advertised since the official mention of the recession.
Actually, this is what the 2008 compensation survey said:
"Average compensation for architecture positions, when factoring in base salaries as well as overtime, bonuses and incentive compensation, increased by more than 5.7% per year on average over the three year period, the strongest record of growth since the AIA began collecting compensation data in 1990. ...In recent years, compensation staff levels for architectural staff positions have significantly outpaced those in the broader economy. "
The study goes on to say that the average architecture compensation is 50% higher than in 1999.
Part of the problem owners of firms have right now is that in order to hire staff a year ago, you were competing with everyone in town and at times had to offer salaries much higher than could be justified by the fees we are able to charge, or we gave raises that were a big jump in order to keep people from switching to another firm. It is interesting to note that most of the firms (at least where I live) that were driving up the wages by offering artificially high salaries are the first with the mass layoffs. For some firms, those "overpaid" (relative to their peers) staff people are easy targets for downsizing.
My latest staff problem is that in the past we have been very generous with bonuses and pension plan contributions. This year I am tending to hold onto the cash to make sure we can meet payroll and keep people employed. As much as I told people that bonuses and pension plans were based on profit, they are now feeling like it was part of base salary, and not happy with a reduction in their pension plan contribution. And as far as the bonuses, many of them used it to pay off debt they accumulated in anticipation of getting a bonus instead of thinking of the bonus as money to use for a nest egg or some other special thing.
And by the way, architecture firms as a business are fortunately pretty low entry costs versus many businesses (retail, restaurant, manufacturing, etc.) You can start a firm on $1000 plus a computer if you have some clients willing to give you your first few jobs, and can create a steady stream of work. The issue for most start ups is getting that steady stream of work, and right now it is even harder to do. I think the lack of work versus lack of capital is the real problem.
archie - what Im saying is average compensation for most architects outside of maybe very large firms in Chicago, the salaries are the same as 2001, maybe 5% higher. Maybe its different other places or maybe I work for too small of boutique places but I cant find a single person here to back this up.
Yikes, that is not my experience here in Pittsburgh. Wages have gone up significantly in the last 3 years, in excess of the cost of living. I would say they have gone up an average of 5 to 6 %, matching the aia study, where cost of living is around 3 to 4%. The salary survey the AIA does covers every state and every size firm, so perhaps it is just your firm. I can't guess as to why this would be- the economy the last three years was pretty good to architects, so firms should have been at least able to keep up with cost of living. Did they raise their billing rates, and if not, why not?
30% over 15 years is 2% annual increase
50% over 10 years is 5% annual increase
I would argue that neither has kept pace with real inflation in the economy. Not that other fields have either, but the way the AIA pumps a 5.7% rate is quite misleading.
Problem now is that with all the layoffs, competition for jobs is ridiculous and desperate people will be willing to work for next to nothing causing a very destructive deflationary spiral in architectural wages.
Hopefully this downturn drives a lot of the surplus staff out of the market all together so when a recovery does occur those of us left will be able to negotiate livable wages.
evilp - I agree that wages have been mostly flat since 2001. Read an article in a major magazine recently (forbes/fortune?) that said the post 911 recovery was not seen in take home wages. The only thing that kept the American consumer going was housing inflation, cash out equity, etc. See where that got us.
I know for a fact that interns at the firm Im at are making just a couple thousand more than I did in 2000. About 3.5%
if 2000 = .035 times salary. salary = $57,000. Not a bad intern salary.
or perhaps you meant 3.5% a year, which would have kept salaries about equal to cost of living increases?
the AIA survey and any other survey have flaws in it. mainly every firm doesn't respond. depending on the cross-section it might even schew the results.
for example, i lived in orlando for five years. My salary increased 26% over that span. but, housing prices doubled. maybe even tripled. and my workload increased and my satifisfaction decreased because we were getting quality new hires based on the old salaries that were being offered.
i moved out of state and got a significant increase. about half of it was eaten up in the cost of living increase.
No archie - I mean more like 35-40. In what planet are interns paid 57K?
That was my point. If someone is making $38,000 now, and they make a couple of thousand more than you did ($36,000) then that is a 5.5% increase not a 3.5% increase. If they made a YEARLY 3.5% increase, then that kept up with cost of living.
we were NOT getting quality new hires based on the salaries offered...
archie, if a fresh intern is earning only $2k more in 2009 than what the equivalent was paid in 2000 that's less than one percent increases annually going $36k to $38k.
Sure, that's about a 5.5% increase total, but if inflation is 3%/year that would be a compounded 27% total increase in 9 years, aka $47k in 2009.
Most fresh interns are not earning that, thus why I think starting salaries have been flat. Would argue salaries for established architects are also flat because I haven't acheived a total 27% rise over 9 years, although better than 5.5% thankfully.
The only hope for good wage increases over the past decade have been via job hopping or major promotions. The latter I think happens mostly to keep people from job hopping, or from people threatening to do so.
My spouse works in a different field (thankfully) and has seen consistent 5%+ raises over the last 5 years, vastly better than my wage increases. Then again, while a 25% increases in pay might sound big, we by no means are living a life of luxury we didn't have 5 years ago. All it has done is helped us maintain what we enjoyed back then. Most people I know have cut back their lifestyle in the past 5 years.
I don't mean to harp on this topic but without healthy wage increases that out pace inflation we will continually devalue this profession.
I actually agree, I have been wondering for awhile why wages seemed to go nowhere in this biz.
archie, that is bittersweet news to hear... the single reason I am not currently living in Pittsburgh is that back when I was scouting jobs there, the average salary was much too low to support my student loan payments. Perhaps that is no longer the case...?
aquapura
I fear the low wages might do the opposite. I fear with all the desperate people driving wages down, those talented self respecting individuals will not accept these artificially low wages and leave the profession for one which will compensate you for a living wage... at the moment I find myself being tempted to leave.
And not just to make MORE money, just to make enough to live, I'm having a hard time finding work at the moment. Everyone I've spoken with who is hiring is receiving hundreds of applicants even for the most menial of drafting jobs for low wages, so these guys are always able to find someone willing to work cheaper. For $8/hr I'd rather work at McDonalds.
in light of threshold's proactive approach... i decided that i would work on my own plan B. so every night i've been scoping out jobs both in and out of architecture- some masterplanning, ca, etc as well as architecture and community involvement. i figure it can only make me feel a bit more relieved... and so far it's working. we also came up with a few ways that if we HAD to refocus our finances in light of a layoff that there were several things we could do. and we would most definitely take advantage of unemployment. maybe even rent out a room. do what you gotta do.
laughing at the idiots on american idol definitely helped to lighten the mood.
also found out that some firms are choosing to let go of people "they just don't like" and blame it on the economy. nothing to do with job performance or lack of projects... instead, laying off people just because some idiot made it to upper management and is mad that the VP likes you more than him.
straight outta kindergarten.
wage increases are wildly varied now in part because the one direct link we had to an inflationary indicator was severed back in the 70's. back then, there was literally a little black book the aia published which 'suggested' architects fees relative to the cost of construction and type of project. it was largely taken as gospel by most clients, so when hard material costs (and soft labor costs) went up, fees went up accordingly. salaries, by and large, tended to keep pace. once the aia was sued by the feds to stop publishing the guide, there was no more enforcement of the fees and undercutting became more of the norm as owners shifted from qualifications (or connections, or whatever) based selections to setting us against each other (this was mostly confined to the commercial realm, but it still had a huge effect). so, basically, once upon a time we had a kind of 'lock' in place on fees, much like the realtors do now, but we lost it.
throw in the shift, in tax law, in the early 80's which accelerated the depreciation rate of buildings to 7 or 8 years, and you had more incentive for owners to seek the cheapest building with the highest valuation. part of that 'cheap' was to reduce the fees.
not all this is bad - there is an argument to be made that these forces helped force us to begin to figure out the real 'value' we can bring to our work. many firms that are just 'get along' firms are going to have a hard time competing in this environment, while many will figure out how to create more value for their services. i know plenty of firms who can generate roughly 200k per employee in fees each year. firms like frank o. (put aside what you think about the work) can generate cutting edge work and huge fees on top of that.
sorry - know this is a diversion from the topic at hand, but this took up quite a few posts. seemed worthy of some broader perspective.
one thing i forgot to point out: when fees became decoupled from the actual costs of construction, it has made it hard for many clients to accept that correlation on face value. so, they are working hard to keep 'real' fees as consistent (and stagnant) as they can, over time. we've seen some try to use revit and other perceived time-saving software packages as a way to say 'well, you can do it in less time, so it should cost less fee'. we don't agree, but not all of our peers do. if someone will pass on some savings and that's the prime driver, it will push down fees to some degree. we've also priced ourselves out of many projects. it's a tough balancing act and it does trickle back down to what kinds of salaries we can offer to our employees.
and so my question gets lost in the angst wilderness - fun
to answer your question - no - i still have a job yet monster still contacts me about a post i made there in 2002. Also somehow via monster my name got sent to every slimey archi-temp agency around chicago. Great if you like the idea of archi-pimps taking 2/3 what they are selling you for.
So one interesting thing I learned about unemployment is that you can still make earnings and get at least half of your benefits as long as you work under 40 hours a week. And are making less than the total benefits awarded.
So how low will you go, can you go?
I wonder if I should flat out say that I can work for a year with 10-20k full time salary in NYC and live rent free with family just to keep putting on the IDP hours.
For those of us without specific IDP units, does it make sense to really underbid ourselves so we can get those units done and get on with the ARE?
I am beginning to think of IDP as and extension of school. Maybe I just need to keep that in mind when offering or accepting wages way below that needed to cover cost of living, this is still education and I am still learning.
In many places you can’t just hang out a shingle and call your self an Architect. Architect is a title act just like MD or lawyer.
And is anyone frustrated with the cheap job search sites that come up with many IT Architecture jobs, not real Architecture jobs. I also don’t like people in the media referring to complex financial systems as “Architecture” this could create some bad associations down the road.
totally agree pjn about frustrations with IT Architecture/etc... and good info on the unemployment. i read a really good article the other day about what to do if you're let go:
#1. get a reference letter before you walk out of the door that very day and
#2. don't exact revenge against the boss or say anything that will harm your rep with them- esp because architecture is a small, small community
i hadn't really thought of the reference letter thing before. but i would definitely ask for that. i'm trying to compile all of my idp hours now and get them signed off before anything tragic happens
Interesting. That was before my time, but might explain why architects generally were better compensated 30+ years ago.
I would love to be more involved in the contract negotiation. I know what my budget is and have to manage costs, but largely do not participate in the original negotiation. In my experience it seems upper management keeps that task very close to their chest. Like that's the one task that separates them from the rest of the staff. I'm just curious as to how we might be able to put pressure on clients for higher fees. Unfortunately, in today's economy I know for a fact some big clients are putting reverse pressure on us to lower our fees. I do think there should be a point where one has to be willing to turn down the work, if nothing else to claim some dignity.
mantaray, salaries are still pretty low in pittsburgh compared to the rest of the country. Most people coming from other cities are shocked. On the other hand, the cost of living, especially housing, is incredibly low, which makes it a very livable city (ranked #1 in the country last year, actually. ) For example, my son, who is a grad student doing research makes $24,000 a year, and was able to buy a fairly nice 3 bedroom house close to the universities, and lives pretty well on his income with no new debt. He looked at schools in california, atlanta and canada that all offered the same salary, but he would not have been able to cover his expenses in those cities.
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