I doubt if you will see Architects flocking to retirement at 65...or even 70. Maybe it happens in the big firms....but that is a really a minority in the over all profession. The only Architects who will be seeking retirement are those who have choosen to work for government or large corporate driven companies requiring inhouse Architects. The rest of us well we will be working till 92 like Mr. Wright.
Very true, snook. I wonder who of us, after looking at their 401k's can really say they see a nicely planned retirement without the aid of a spouse's benefits?
clamfan said: "Since the SOM "breakup" and moving of the HQ to NYC the Chicago office has been a backwater"
This is not true. Here's why:
There is no SOM "HQ", but Central HR, Central Accounting, Central IT, and most of the high-powered engineering expertise is still planted firmly in Chicago. If there were an "HQ", it would be hard to argue against the Chicago office. Most see the Chicago and NYC offices as being on equal footing, though there was less respect for the design coming out of Chicago a few years ago (and now many see them as equal).
SOM Chicago has had some of the most high-profile jobs of all SOM offices in recent years. Say what you will about the later SOM work of Adrian Smith, but I don't see David Childs being much of an improvement. After Adrian's departure, design at SOM Chicago is now led by a couple of former NY partners, but the office is still going strong in comparison to other SOM offices.
According to my inside sources, SOM NY has had layoffs at higher frequency, earlier timeframes, and greater depth than Chicago. But yeah, both offices are laying off in large numbers!
Look Kid: The SOM NY/Chi split was when Smith & Gill left to set up Smith & Gill, hence the bringing-in of NY partners to the Chicago office.
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Earlier I mentioned an Edinburgh Starchitect office closing. [if you consider them starry] Make's Edinburgh office announced its closure today.
I doubt if you will see Architects flocking to retirement at 65...or even 70.
Retirement probably wasn't the right term. I too work with people well past age 65, but all of them have stepped down from the day to day operations of running a firm. They have given up the 60+ hour weeks and management the principals deal with daily. I can't wait for the golden years when I can just come into work and "design" on a very flexible schedule.
My concern is since the current crop of upper management has lost so much on their investments none of them will be too eager to let someone step into their position for quite a long time. Aside from new blood being good for most businesses, people like myself might be waiting a long time for promotions.
Please realize that our economic prospects are far worse than a two to four year recession. The market for architectural services is evaporating. New commercial real estate development is unlikely. Speculative real estate development is over. Refinancing of existing commercial real estate loans is increasingly difficult; witness General Growth Properties', the 2nd largest mall owner, impending failure.
Imagine all the other property owners in same situation. Institutional development, the hospitals, schools, and universities, are all curtailing their capital development projects.
In Chicago, there were no new downtown highrises after 1929 until the Prudential Building. I think we're facing that magnitude of economic reality. Chicago is "built out" - there is a significant surplus of every type of real estate: office, industrial, retail, residential, institutional, governmental, etc.
What work is left for architectural offices, except to finish the projects in construction, and then only if the client continues to pay? Many large architectural firms "front fund" their developer clients until the construction loan is complete and the first draw occurs. So many larger firms have significant outstanding billings for their large projects. There is not much hope for firms "carrying the payroll".
Moonlighting on residential projects won't keep you fed. Most new residential projects are unlikely to occur beyond schematic design discussions, as people see their stock portfolios dwindle and their own jobs at risk. Houses are no longer "personal piggy banks" ready to be tapped by home equity loans for remodeling projects. Construction loans are difficult to obtain even for high-end residential homes.
Go home and review your finances. Can you feed and house yourself (and your family) for at least a year? Are you willing to expand your job search to non-architectural "survival" employment?
For all the Chicago architects, please read Chicago Crains and keep close tabs on the Chicago economy, because it won't be pretty.
Pretty spot on Chicago Architect. Just to add to your non-architectural survival employment...it's competitive and many people don't take you seriously. I'm in Chicago as well and many restaurants are way too slow to hire. I'm an avid runner and couldn't secure a pt position at a running store because they sensed once the market picked up I'd be out of there.
I've applied to brokerage firms, trading firms, retail positions, etc. and have found it's difficult to get even a response. They're swamped as well with individuals w/in those fields looking for work.
I too am in Chicago, and somehow our firm is sitll winning new jobs each week. We've also had several jobs that were on hold come back into the hopper. We have definitely seen a large shift away from housing development and are slower than we were a year ago, but there is still work out there. We're not hiring, but are actually feeling kind of short-staffed and will be bringing in some more interns to help on projects next semester. Will this last? Well, I'm pretty nervous about it. But I think we have at least a two year pipeline under contract, so not every firm is suffering... yet.
i know some cities have been hit for a few a year to a few months....but also consider the auto industry taking a hit too..especially in the midwest.. detroit has been in the hole for years with layoffs/etc.......
you have to diversify yourself regardless if you have/had a typical cushy office job. people need to have a few backup plans that they have had on the back burner for a while.
chicagoarchitect sure didn't wake up on the right side of the bed today. while i don't disagree, maybe this downturn will finally make people listen to me when i say we need less architects, not more. as Lookout Kid hinted upon, there still is a need for architects. Problem is that a bubble economy also created a bubble for architects that has to contract.
there may be some merit in your argument - the trick is what happens when the situation becomes 'normal' again? who's left at that point? all the talented, dedicated people or the bottom feeders who somehow managed to stick around like cockroaches?
i don't think our market (as professionals) is too saturated - i'd argue we haven't been as expansive as we could be with our services, instead letting others take huge chunks of fee and scope of work away from what we could/can do. that expansiveness might be what's keeping some firms floating right now, more so than others.
I have to somewhat disagree w/ Chiarchitect that Chicago is "built out". Regarding the residetial market, theres a glut of 10,000 condo units in the downtown area which is growing at a rate of about 8,000 per year. So you have a 1.5 year glut. Compared to areas of the sunbelt where theyve built 10-15 years of inventory thats very minor. In the exurbs the problem is a little more dramatic - not because of the number of homes built in former cornfields of northern Illinois, but rather their prices. They simply are too exspensive for the elderly, newlyweds and imigrant famlies who typicaly escape to the exurbs. Commercial real estate is actualy cruising along in the class A market. The problem is the abandonment of the older pre war high rises. Business continue to occupy ( albeit its contracted some this year and last ) but vacancy is right on target for a healthy office market - 12-18% For us architects maybe these old high rises could make good small business spaces - thats the real tragedy of downtown Chicago right now. No one but multi nationals and giant trading and leagal firms can afford to be there. We lost our lease and had to move to River west ( pukes) all in all I think Chicago is one of the metro regions best surving this storm and well positioned going foreward. Now if we could just do something about January and feruary....
I'm a victim of the Cooper Carry layoffs. I worked in one of the non-Atlanta offices. Myself and others were brought into a mid-morning meeting and were told the situation. We were each given 3 weeks severance.
I have been working in this industry since 2003 and it looks like I won't be back anytime soon. Good luck to others.
HOK has had layoffs in several offices and may be planning for more. They had a hiring freeze a few weeks ago. They may hire if the talent is needed, but not without laying others off.
That kind of massacre after Thanksgiving Break is total bull shit. They led everyone one on into believing that thing were sound by giving everyone a holiday bonus, let everyone take their Thanksgiving break and spend an assload of money traveling and then fuck everyone in the ass when they got back. Some people weren't even back from vacation to face the reality that they were no longer employed. I understand that there is never a good way to let people go but there are also really BAD ways to do it and this one takes the cake. Even the more level headed people there were outraged by the way they handled it.
We've heard a lot of layoff stories this year, but I can't say I've ever heard of something like this.
Archmed, that's pretty typical at alot of places. It totally blows. I've known people in a related field (mining engineering) leave the mine site to go on vacation to see their families thinking everything is ok only to get a phone call from the boss saying "don't come back".
I personally will probably be unemployed sometime after Christmas break is over. This has made me seriously rethink my post-graduation situation. There is always one act in town that is always hiring young, dedicated architects and engineers and will pay them a decent wage while letting them continue to gain experience in their field: The U.S. Military. After graduation, I may just join the Navy and go do PM work building barracks and maintenance depos in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Crumpets, I have the same question as grid: what are your plans?
Apu, I'll also ask the question I imagine others have: to work for the military, do you have to actually join? Or can you work for them as a civilian, but w/o being employed by Halliburton (or perhaps being employed by them and destroying them from within)?
Speaking of letting people go while on vacation. During the 2001-02 downturn I was working for an A/E firm that was having layoffs. One engineer left on a 2 week summer vacation with his family. Two days into his trip they let him go. He didn't know until his key card didn't work on the front door two weeks later. Also, no severance and the vacation used up the last of his PTO time. He got nothing.
I know of several engineering consulting firms that are going through layoffs right now. At least we're not alone.
Aqua, the banking industry is hurting too. This morning WaMu anounced at least 10,000 layoffs. A few weeks ago, it was Citigroup that anounced 50,000 cuts.
This is fucking insane. I can't believe Obama only won by 7 million votes.
LB, the way it works is if I join the Navy after i graduate to work as an engineer/architect they bring me on as an officer and I get the impression most of the navy/army construction jobs are in-house design and planning with outside/civilian contractors (like Halliburton) building the stuff and the military coordinates (really just like the architect/contractor relationship). I may post something if I ever wind up speaking with a recruiter and joining. I may have to change my screen name to Lt. Apu if that ever happens...
I wander down the street where I live (a central business district) and see the worried looks on people's faces. In a way, I'm rather glad I'm already unemployed rather than fearing its immanence. This way, I'm relaxed, I've woken at lunchtime and can stroll down the street enjoying the sunshine without a 50min curfew... I feel its something of an inditement of my chosen profession that, as someone passionate about architecture, I'm loathe to consider the time when I might be re-employed in the profession itself... time to crank up the mini-moog and hit those bouncy bass-lines :-)
Thanks everyone for your support. Archmed, I too am a little bit unsettled at the way it was handled. I just have a feeling this has been in the works for months, especially since they started outsourcing some of the HR.
It's true, everyone who got let go was fooled. We were all given a Holiday Bonus right before Thanksgiving break. From my perspective, things were going well. We knew Atlanta was struggling, but our office was fairly busy with good projects on the horizon. In fact, I truly felt we would be hiring people anytime soon. Our office is quite small and it's quite telling that merely 6 months ago this office was having retention problems (people would just walk out because the principal is quite an ass). My guess is that Atlanta flexed it's muscles and decided that each office needed to cut people.
In terms of what to do - well, I am fortunate in that I have another non-architectural degree that I'm going to implement. The problem I have is I'm not sure what industry I'd like to work in. I'll let you all know where I head in the near future. But, in the meantime, I have 3 personal projects I'm working on. One is to start my own design company. Afterall - why not? I've read a lot of people stress out about leaving the profession, etc, etc. For me, architecture died when I left grad school. I love design, but the nitty gritty bits and pieces of construction is not my bag. So, for me atleast, architecture will become a part-time personal gig. And, I implore others who are forced to leave the industry to do the same. Keep those creative juices flowing.
Crumpets Im troubled by your statements. I dont mean to be critical in a bad time for you but my observations;
"I too am a little bit unsettled at the way it was handled"
Never place blame even it was deserved. It becomes a habit.
" I've read a lot of people stress out about leaving the profession, etc, etc. For me, architecture died when I left grad school. I love design, but the nitty gritty bits and pieces of construction is not my bag"
Nitty gritty construction is not independent of design nor is design independent of construction. Maybe this gives insight into staffing decisions?
"So, for me atleast, architecture will become a part-time personal gig"
Never give up - recoup and regroup and get back in the mix.
They handled it like a bunch of assholes and they are squarely to blame for it. The fact that you can even have an issue with this is just comical. Crumpet was one of the unfortunate victims of a disasterous effort at "softening the blow" on their part.
I know a lot of the former and present staff at CC and not a single person is anything less than outraged at the way this transpired.
Jack, please start reading the local real estate journal reports. Even reading Crains would give you a more accurate assessment of the current Chicago real estate market.
Don't forget the very large stock of existing homes in the Chicago market, in addition to the noted new condo units coming on line. Many homeowners already faced possible foreclosure due to interest rate resets. which will continue through 2009 and 2010, only more likely now due to probable unemployment occurring in many households. Home prices remain high (in relation to income) and mortgages are now difficult to obtain without stellar credit. People are unlikely to buy a home if their job security and financial status are uncertain and the economic looks bleak, so that big pool of unsold homes is unlikely to shrink in size.
Downtown residential development has stopped; new projects aren't in the pipeline and the availability of project financing has disappeared. "Spire" and Teng's "Oriental" projects are stopped dead, both losing their construction financing even though construction was underway. Corus Bank is no longer lending to developers. In the "exurbs" a number of the home builders are "closing up" as we speak (Neumann Homes, Pasquenelli, Kimball Hill) or struggling mightly (Pulte, etc). Residential developers are dismantling their operations and terminating their senior people.
Current downtown office vacancy rate (tracking Class A office space only) doesn't reflect amount of vacant "Class B" and "Class C" space, or reflect additional sublease space which will become available shortly as lay-offs reduce office space requirements. Hines' Riverbend may be last downtown office high-rise project for awhile. Meanwhile, suburban office markets are glutted with vacant space; the I-88 corridor has office buildings containing floors of never occupied tenant space. Unlikely to see any new office buildings or corporate headquarters.
Industrial developers, mixed-use/retail developers, and REITs are hurting badly. Duke's stock lost 31.5% of its value just yesterday in a single day of trading. General Growth Properties' can't refinance its outstanding $1+ billion loan, has seen its stock lose nearly all value, and could collapse any day. Don't expect any new retail shopping center projects, or renovation projects. Look at Block 37 and Carsons renovation projects; Freed faces a significant hurdle in leasing these two big blocks of downtown retail space
Mayor Daley had a Friday news conference several weeks ago, when he announced that "many corporate executives" had visited him recently to advice him that "massive lay-offs would occur shortly and continue through 2009" here in Chicago. Daley noted that we would experience another "Great Depression", not mincing words. People really need to assess their financial situation and make plans for a prolonged period of unemployment and general lack of opportunity. Chicago is not well-positioned for a soft recession.
Achmed, I was just noting my reactions to the langauge used in the post.
Chiarchitect, I understand the fear, I understand the overexuberance experianced in the last decade, and I stnad by my convictions that we are not only doing better than most places, we are well positioned going forward.
PS Ive been reading Crains since '92 and know a few retail developers who are chomping at the bit to grasp a piece of the GGP portfolio, are flush with cash and waiting on the sidelines through this downturn, which in turn will provide re branding opportunities for us retail architects out there. Fear not my friend the Sun also Rises.
From my understanding most of the work done by the Army/Navy Corps of Engineers is actually done by civilians employed through the individual branch of the Armed Forces. Depending upon if you are licensed or not they either train you to be a 'journeyman architect' or you are hired on directly as an architect. It also depends upon who you are hired by, but you will most likely spend significant time abroad if you join the Army. You might also do a lot of travel for the Navy, but most is within the United States and its territories.
I know the Army uses Microstation, so I would assume all Branches might have standardized to that. I can not comment on the metric. I never asked.
You do not have to join any branch of the military in order to work for them. Remember that if you join any branch of the Armed Forces you are a soldier first. I don't say that in a bad way, it is just the mentality towards one's responsibilities.
what's the deal with all these "interviews" that come along with the excess baggage of "we're waiting to hear on a few projects, but once we know, we'll let you know." i'd almost prefer to just hear this in an email rather than going out to the interview just to be let down again and wasting my time.
just had a similar experience allisfalling, actually two...the most recent one i took a flight to the interview. i figured them allowing it to get that far meant that they actually already knew they could take on new staff.
seriously, ive gone on at least 10 interviews, all in california but still drove from northern california to southern california multiple times for interviews, just to hear the same response about how much they like what they see but they just can't hire. it's altogether disappointing, a waste of time, and a waste of money i already don't have.
that's where i flew from, LA-SF. good thing it wasn't that expensive, but still...
and you have to keep telling yourself that this situation is out of our control, it's good to be wanted...
If anyone is collecting unemployment and feeling embarrassed or down about it, I heard this yesterday:
Don't be embarrassed, because this is YOUR money. While you worked you paid into it without choice; now you are just getting it back.
I'm self-employed, which means if things tank I won't be able to collect unemployment, but if I could I sure as hell would - I've been paying into it since I was 14 years old!
Anyway: it's frustrating, but hang in there everyone, keep putting your best self out there.
my job flew me and picked me up from detroit-jersey
ask them if they will cover your expense to fly out to interview. i would figure a phone interview and emailing them some of your work is good enough to see if you 'qualify' for the job.
at one firm i interviewed at, i was given the run around. i had the interviews, and filled out the paper work, then they said i should be able to start the next week. well, i gave the shop i was at the heads up letting them know that i got an office job. well, the firm ended up giving me the run around and never returned my calls/emails after the fact and sort of screwed me since my shop work was given to another person.
if firms dont know what they want and are just 'surfin' for interviews, then just be blunt with them and as them if they plan on hiring asap. it's really a waste of time to bullshit with some sort of 'might get hired if we get 10 jobs in' excuse.
Liberty....that is two of us....and yup that is why I was doing as-built drawings until mid-night -thirty and meeting a contractor at 7:00 am ....need to keep the clients we have real happy.....cause their be no sugar form Uncle Sam for those of us who are owners....and pay our own health insurance.....and all those taxes... I will not surrender!
Layoffs....layoffs......
I doubt if you will see Architects flocking to retirement at 65...or even 70. Maybe it happens in the big firms....but that is a really a minority in the over all profession. The only Architects who will be seeking retirement are those who have choosen to work for government or large corporate driven companies requiring inhouse Architects. The rest of us well we will be working till 92 like Mr. Wright.
ya i work with a few that are 80+
Very true, snook. I wonder who of us, after looking at their 401k's can really say they see a nicely planned retirement without the aid of a spouse's benefits?
clamfan said: "Since the SOM "breakup" and moving of the HQ to NYC the Chicago office has been a backwater"
This is not true. Here's why:
There is no SOM "HQ", but Central HR, Central Accounting, Central IT, and most of the high-powered engineering expertise is still planted firmly in Chicago. If there were an "HQ", it would be hard to argue against the Chicago office. Most see the Chicago and NYC offices as being on equal footing, though there was less respect for the design coming out of Chicago a few years ago (and now many see them as equal).
SOM Chicago has had some of the most high-profile jobs of all SOM offices in recent years. Say what you will about the later SOM work of Adrian Smith, but I don't see David Childs being much of an improvement. After Adrian's departure, design at SOM Chicago is now led by a couple of former NY partners, but the office is still going strong in comparison to other SOM offices.
According to my inside sources, SOM NY has had layoffs at higher frequency, earlier timeframes, and greater depth than Chicago. But yeah, both offices are laying off in large numbers!
Look Kid: The SOM NY/Chi split was when Smith & Gill left to set up Smith & Gill, hence the bringing-in of NY partners to the Chicago office.
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Earlier I mentioned an Edinburgh Starchitect office closing. [if you consider them starry] Make's Edinburgh office announced its closure today.
Massive layoff today at Cooper Carry including most senior level people. I heard around 80 firmwide.
Retirement probably wasn't the right term. I too work with people well past age 65, but all of them have stepped down from the day to day operations of running a firm. They have given up the 60+ hour weeks and management the principals deal with daily. I can't wait for the golden years when I can just come into work and "design" on a very flexible schedule.
My concern is since the current crop of upper management has lost so much on their investments none of them will be too eager to let someone step into their position for quite a long time. Aside from new blood being good for most businesses, people like myself might be waiting a long time for promotions.
i had coffee with a guy from oma yesterday. rotterdam just let go 50 people. he was one of them. 50! ouch.
Please realize that our economic prospects are far worse than a two to four year recession. The market for architectural services is evaporating. New commercial real estate development is unlikely. Speculative real estate development is over. Refinancing of existing commercial real estate loans is increasingly difficult; witness General Growth Properties', the 2nd largest mall owner, impending failure.
Imagine all the other property owners in same situation. Institutional development, the hospitals, schools, and universities, are all curtailing their capital development projects.
In Chicago, there were no new downtown highrises after 1929 until the Prudential Building. I think we're facing that magnitude of economic reality. Chicago is "built out" - there is a significant surplus of every type of real estate: office, industrial, retail, residential, institutional, governmental, etc.
What work is left for architectural offices, except to finish the projects in construction, and then only if the client continues to pay? Many large architectural firms "front fund" their developer clients until the construction loan is complete and the first draw occurs. So many larger firms have significant outstanding billings for their large projects. There is not much hope for firms "carrying the payroll".
Moonlighting on residential projects won't keep you fed. Most new residential projects are unlikely to occur beyond schematic design discussions, as people see their stock portfolios dwindle and their own jobs at risk. Houses are no longer "personal piggy banks" ready to be tapped by home equity loans for remodeling projects. Construction loans are difficult to obtain even for high-end residential homes.
Go home and review your finances. Can you feed and house yourself (and your family) for at least a year? Are you willing to expand your job search to non-architectural "survival" employment?
For all the Chicago architects, please read Chicago Crains and keep close tabs on the Chicago economy, because it won't be pretty.
What Chicago Architect said, but for London.
I admit to having a kind of 'deer-in-the-headlights' fascination with this situation as it unfolds.
Pretty spot on Chicago Architect. Just to add to your non-architectural survival employment...it's competitive and many people don't take you seriously. I'm in Chicago as well and many restaurants are way too slow to hire. I'm an avid runner and couldn't secure a pt position at a running store because they sensed once the market picked up I'd be out of there.
I've applied to brokerage firms, trading firms, retail positions, etc. and have found it's difficult to get even a response. They're swamped as well with individuals w/in those fields looking for work.
I too am in Chicago, and somehow our firm is sitll winning new jobs each week. We've also had several jobs that were on hold come back into the hopper. We have definitely seen a large shift away from housing development and are slower than we were a year ago, but there is still work out there. We're not hiring, but are actually feeling kind of short-staffed and will be bringing in some more interns to help on projects next semester. Will this last? Well, I'm pretty nervous about it. But I think we have at least a two year pipeline under contract, so not every firm is suffering... yet.
I'm hoping after the new administration comes in that there will be new spending on government projects.
the GSA during the Clinton years were fairly decent clients.
i know some cities have been hit for a few a year to a few months....but also consider the auto industry taking a hit too..especially in the midwest.. detroit has been in the hole for years with layoffs/etc.......
you have to diversify yourself regardless if you have/had a typical cushy office job. people need to have a few backup plans that they have had on the back burner for a while.
good luck
b
chicagoarchitect sure didn't wake up on the right side of the bed today. while i don't disagree, maybe this downturn will finally make people listen to me when i say we need less architects, not more. as Lookout Kid hinted upon, there still is a need for architects. Problem is that a bubble economy also created a bubble for architects that has to contract.
aqua,
there may be some merit in your argument - the trick is what happens when the situation becomes 'normal' again? who's left at that point? all the talented, dedicated people or the bottom feeders who somehow managed to stick around like cockroaches?
i don't think our market (as professionals) is too saturated - i'd argue we haven't been as expansive as we could be with our services, instead letting others take huge chunks of fee and scope of work away from what we could/can do. that expansiveness might be what's keeping some firms floating right now, more so than others.
the american population is expected to increase 30 million in the next 20 years.
I have to somewhat disagree w/ Chiarchitect that Chicago is "built out". Regarding the residetial market, theres a glut of 10,000 condo units in the downtown area which is growing at a rate of about 8,000 per year. So you have a 1.5 year glut. Compared to areas of the sunbelt where theyve built 10-15 years of inventory thats very minor. In the exurbs the problem is a little more dramatic - not because of the number of homes built in former cornfields of northern Illinois, but rather their prices. They simply are too exspensive for the elderly, newlyweds and imigrant famlies who typicaly escape to the exurbs. Commercial real estate is actualy cruising along in the class A market. The problem is the abandonment of the older pre war high rises. Business continue to occupy ( albeit its contracted some this year and last ) but vacancy is right on target for a healthy office market - 12-18% For us architects maybe these old high rises could make good small business spaces - thats the real tragedy of downtown Chicago right now. No one but multi nationals and giant trading and leagal firms can afford to be there. We lost our lease and had to move to River west ( pukes) all in all I think Chicago is one of the metro regions best surving this storm and well positioned going foreward. Now if we could just do something about January and feruary....
I'm a victim of the Cooper Carry layoffs. I worked in one of the non-Atlanta offices. Myself and others were brought into a mid-morning meeting and were told the situation. We were each given 3 weeks severance.
I have been working in this industry since 2003 and it looks like I won't be back anytime soon. Good luck to others.
HOK has had layoffs in several offices and may be planning for more. They had a hiring freeze a few weeks ago. They may hire if the talent is needed, but not without laying others off.
Crumpets - what do you plan on doing now?
Crumpet, I'm pretty aware of the situation at CC.
That kind of massacre after Thanksgiving Break is total bull shit. They led everyone one on into believing that thing were sound by giving everyone a holiday bonus, let everyone take their Thanksgiving break and spend an assload of money traveling and then fuck everyone in the ass when they got back. Some people weren't even back from vacation to face the reality that they were no longer employed. I understand that there is never a good way to let people go but there are also really BAD ways to do it and this one takes the cake. Even the more level headed people there were outraged by the way they handled it.
We've heard a lot of layoff stories this year, but I can't say I've ever heard of something like this.
Archmed, that's pretty typical at alot of places. It totally blows. I've known people in a related field (mining engineering) leave the mine site to go on vacation to see their families thinking everything is ok only to get a phone call from the boss saying "don't come back".
I personally will probably be unemployed sometime after Christmas break is over. This has made me seriously rethink my post-graduation situation. There is always one act in town that is always hiring young, dedicated architects and engineers and will pay them a decent wage while letting them continue to gain experience in their field: The U.S. Military. After graduation, I may just join the Navy and go do PM work building barracks and maintenance depos in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Crumpets, I have the same question as grid: what are your plans?
Apu, I'll also ask the question I imagine others have: to work for the military, do you have to actually join? Or can you work for them as a civilian, but w/o being employed by Halliburton (or perhaps being employed by them and destroying them from within)?
Speaking of letting people go while on vacation. During the 2001-02 downturn I was working for an A/E firm that was having layoffs. One engineer left on a 2 week summer vacation with his family. Two days into his trip they let him go. He didn't know until his key card didn't work on the front door two weeks later. Also, no severance and the vacation used up the last of his PTO time. He got nothing.
I know of several engineering consulting firms that are going through layoffs right now. At least we're not alone.
Aqua, the banking industry is hurting too. This morning WaMu anounced at least 10,000 layoffs. A few weeks ago, it was Citigroup that anounced 50,000 cuts.
This is fucking insane. I can't believe Obama only won by 7 million votes.
LB, the way it works is if I join the Navy after i graduate to work as an engineer/architect they bring me on as an officer and I get the impression most of the navy/army construction jobs are in-house design and planning with outside/civilian contractors (like Halliburton) building the stuff and the military coordinates (really just like the architect/contractor relationship). I may post something if I ever wind up speaking with a recruiter and joining. I may have to change my screen name to Lt. Apu if that ever happens...
I wander down the street where I live (a central business district) and see the worried looks on people's faces. In a way, I'm rather glad I'm already unemployed rather than fearing its immanence. This way, I'm relaxed, I've woken at lunchtime and can stroll down the street enjoying the sunshine without a 50min curfew... I feel its something of an inditement of my chosen profession that, as someone passionate about architecture, I'm loathe to consider the time when I might be re-employed in the profession itself... time to crank up the mini-moog and hit those bouncy bass-lines :-)
50 min lunches? Thats why theyre laid off
Thanks everyone for your support. Archmed, I too am a little bit unsettled at the way it was handled. I just have a feeling this has been in the works for months, especially since they started outsourcing some of the HR.
It's true, everyone who got let go was fooled. We were all given a Holiday Bonus right before Thanksgiving break. From my perspective, things were going well. We knew Atlanta was struggling, but our office was fairly busy with good projects on the horizon. In fact, I truly felt we would be hiring people anytime soon. Our office is quite small and it's quite telling that merely 6 months ago this office was having retention problems (people would just walk out because the principal is quite an ass). My guess is that Atlanta flexed it's muscles and decided that each office needed to cut people.
In terms of what to do - well, I am fortunate in that I have another non-architectural degree that I'm going to implement. The problem I have is I'm not sure what industry I'd like to work in. I'll let you all know where I head in the near future. But, in the meantime, I have 3 personal projects I'm working on. One is to start my own design company. Afterall - why not? I've read a lot of people stress out about leaving the profession, etc, etc. For me, architecture died when I left grad school. I love design, but the nitty gritty bits and pieces of construction is not my bag. So, for me atleast, architecture will become a part-time personal gig. And, I implore others who are forced to leave the industry to do the same. Keep those creative juices flowing.
Crumpets Im troubled by your statements. I dont mean to be critical in a bad time for you but my observations;
"I too am a little bit unsettled at the way it was handled"
Never place blame even it was deserved. It becomes a habit.
" I've read a lot of people stress out about leaving the profession, etc, etc. For me, architecture died when I left grad school. I love design, but the nitty gritty bits and pieces of construction is not my bag"
Nitty gritty construction is not independent of design nor is design independent of construction. Maybe this gives insight into staffing decisions?
"So, for me atleast, architecture will become a part-time personal gig"
Never give up - recoup and regroup and get back in the mix.
I've been laid off both in '01 and '08, both immediately after returning from vacation, both the exact same time of year... early September.
It almost makes me think they do it on purpose. I won't be taking any more early September vacations, that's for sure.
Jack,
They handled it like a bunch of assholes and they are squarely to blame for it. The fact that you can even have an issue with this is just comical. Crumpet was one of the unfortunate victims of a disasterous effort at "softening the blow" on their part.
I know a lot of the former and present staff at CC and not a single person is anything less than outraged at the way this transpired.
regardless, never place blame or complain after a layoff - just accept it and move on.
Jack, please start reading the local real estate journal reports. Even reading Crains would give you a more accurate assessment of the current Chicago real estate market.
Don't forget the very large stock of existing homes in the Chicago market, in addition to the noted new condo units coming on line. Many homeowners already faced possible foreclosure due to interest rate resets. which will continue through 2009 and 2010, only more likely now due to probable unemployment occurring in many households. Home prices remain high (in relation to income) and mortgages are now difficult to obtain without stellar credit. People are unlikely to buy a home if their job security and financial status are uncertain and the economic looks bleak, so that big pool of unsold homes is unlikely to shrink in size.
Downtown residential development has stopped; new projects aren't in the pipeline and the availability of project financing has disappeared. "Spire" and Teng's "Oriental" projects are stopped dead, both losing their construction financing even though construction was underway. Corus Bank is no longer lending to developers. In the "exurbs" a number of the home builders are "closing up" as we speak (Neumann Homes, Pasquenelli, Kimball Hill) or struggling mightly (Pulte, etc). Residential developers are dismantling their operations and terminating their senior people.
Current downtown office vacancy rate (tracking Class A office space only) doesn't reflect amount of vacant "Class B" and "Class C" space, or reflect additional sublease space which will become available shortly as lay-offs reduce office space requirements. Hines' Riverbend may be last downtown office high-rise project for awhile. Meanwhile, suburban office markets are glutted with vacant space; the I-88 corridor has office buildings containing floors of never occupied tenant space. Unlikely to see any new office buildings or corporate headquarters.
Industrial developers, mixed-use/retail developers, and REITs are hurting badly. Duke's stock lost 31.5% of its value just yesterday in a single day of trading. General Growth Properties' can't refinance its outstanding $1+ billion loan, has seen its stock lose nearly all value, and could collapse any day. Don't expect any new retail shopping center projects, or renovation projects. Look at Block 37 and Carsons renovation projects; Freed faces a significant hurdle in leasing these two big blocks of downtown retail space
Mayor Daley had a Friday news conference several weeks ago, when he announced that "many corporate executives" had visited him recently to advice him that "massive lay-offs would occur shortly and continue through 2009" here in Chicago. Daley noted that we would experience another "Great Depression", not mincing words. People really need to assess their financial situation and make plans for a prolonged period of unemployment and general lack of opportunity. Chicago is not well-positioned for a soft recession.
Achmed, I was just noting my reactions to the langauge used in the post.
Chiarchitect, I understand the fear, I understand the overexuberance experianced in the last decade, and I stnad by my convictions that we are not only doing better than most places, we are well positioned going forward.
PS Ive been reading Crains since '92 and know a few retail developers who are chomping at the bit to grasp a piece of the GGP portfolio, are flush with cash and waiting on the sidelines through this downturn, which in turn will provide re branding opportunities for us retail architects out there. Fear not my friend the Sun also Rises.
i love you archmed
There is universal insurance in Canada, and as far as I'm concerned it's not a socialist country
Time to go weave ritual rugs in Kathmandu and leave all this mess behind.
Apu - Isn't military work all BIM (microstation, I think) and in metric? I think the CA experience would be very interesting...
RE: The military
From my understanding most of the work done by the Army/Navy Corps of Engineers is actually done by civilians employed through the individual branch of the Armed Forces. Depending upon if you are licensed or not they either train you to be a 'journeyman architect' or you are hired on directly as an architect. It also depends upon who you are hired by, but you will most likely spend significant time abroad if you join the Army. You might also do a lot of travel for the Navy, but most is within the United States and its territories.
I know the Army uses Microstation, so I would assume all Branches might have standardized to that. I can not comment on the metric. I never asked.
You do not have to join any branch of the military in order to work for them. Remember that if you join any branch of the Armed Forces you are a soldier first. I don't say that in a bad way, it is just the mentality towards one's responsibilities.
what's the deal with all these "interviews" that come along with the excess baggage of "we're waiting to hear on a few projects, but once we know, we'll let you know." i'd almost prefer to just hear this in an email rather than going out to the interview just to be let down again and wasting my time.
just had a similar experience allisfalling, actually two...the most recent one i took a flight to the interview. i figured them allowing it to get that far meant that they actually already knew they could take on new staff.
march-
seriously, ive gone on at least 10 interviews, all in california but still drove from northern california to southern california multiple times for interviews, just to hear the same response about how much they like what they see but they just can't hire. it's altogether disappointing, a waste of time, and a waste of money i already don't have.
that's where i flew from, LA-SF. good thing it wasn't that expensive, but still...
and you have to keep telling yourself that this situation is out of our control, it's good to be wanted...
If anyone is collecting unemployment and feeling embarrassed or down about it, I heard this yesterday:
Don't be embarrassed, because this is YOUR money. While you worked you paid into it without choice; now you are just getting it back.
I'm self-employed, which means if things tank I won't be able to collect unemployment, but if I could I sure as hell would - I've been paying into it since I was 14 years old!
Anyway: it's frustrating, but hang in there everyone, keep putting your best self out there.
my job flew me and picked me up from detroit-jersey
ask them if they will cover your expense to fly out to interview. i would figure a phone interview and emailing them some of your work is good enough to see if you 'qualify' for the job.
at one firm i interviewed at, i was given the run around. i had the interviews, and filled out the paper work, then they said i should be able to start the next week. well, i gave the shop i was at the heads up letting them know that i got an office job. well, the firm ended up giving me the run around and never returned my calls/emails after the fact and sort of screwed me since my shop work was given to another person.
if firms dont know what they want and are just 'surfin' for interviews, then just be blunt with them and as them if they plan on hiring asap. it's really a waste of time to bullshit with some sort of 'might get hired if we get 10 jobs in' excuse.
Liberty....that is two of us....and yup that is why I was doing as-built drawings until mid-night -thirty and meeting a contractor at 7:00 am ....need to keep the clients we have real happy.....cause their be no sugar form Uncle Sam for those of us who are owners....and pay our own health insurance.....and all those taxes... I will not surrender!
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