> LB – There is no work. I’m at a small office and this situation has occurred swiftly. We had to lay off half the staff 6 weeks ago when 75% of the work went on hold quite literally overnight but we really thought the last big project was going to stay put. It represented about 12 months of work for the remaining staff and we have another really big project that went on hold that we were hoping would be a go again come the spring. That second project alone coming back would mean we could staff up to 100% again and have work for 18 months. So, if things turn around we know that at least these 2 big projects will come back. How far out that will be is the question and after a record-breaking day on the DOW like today I’m not feeling confident that we are talking 1-3 months here.
The #1 has the most to lose here. He can’t collect and I can’t even imagine what it would be like for him to find a job after owning his own (very successful until these last 2 months) business for 20 years.
I just came out of an office meeting and it is looking more and more like tomorrow is the last billable day. I did present a new business idea to the firm that was well accepted and I think will well serve a certain market when things get better. We would use the downtime to get the foundation in place for the new venture but income from it is a long way off. I now have to really look at my own situation and decide what is best for my family. I have a wife, a son and someone new on the way and although ownership stake in a business that could be successful 5 years from now would be great I need to figure out how we can survive without burning though everything we have worked so hard for over the years.
this is starting to look very ugly. i was watching the bbc and they had a story about the loss of jobs in china and the possiblility that if the jobs dry up in china their could be massive civil unrest as the people have sucked up to the government in exchange for jobs. my friend in chicago who owns a travel business said that she has become semi retired is going to sell her house has laid off staff etc.
Lookin’ Between the Couch Cushions for Spare Change
That’s what today was like: looking between the couch cushions for spare change. A couple of small things happened that we would typically pass along to consultants or contractors but today we embraced them. It’s all non-traditional work, in one case acting as an owner’s representative and the other being a general contractor/securing bids for a very small project. It’s not much but it will get us billable through next week.
Niles Bolton just laid off 1/3 of their staff. More expected. Add Berryrio and SK&I to that list.
The good news is that HOK in DC is hiring for anyone looking. Apparently they are looking to expand their office from 120 or so to about 170. That's the word on the street plus from people who work there.
Apparently SOM Chicago laid off a bunch of people this past Thursday. I've heard numbers between 30 and 50, but can't confirm. And the last thing I heard from that office was that they had pleny of work and were quite busy... Scary stuff.
SOM NY has been laying off the whole year and three weeks ago they laid off 50 people in one day. and I heard more is coming.
sameolddoctor, megafirms design suck anyway... and I agree, maybe it is a good thing. I have a feeling American architecture is so stuck in the past partly because of them.
archmed, most of them are. Say what you will a lot of these firms have very high inefficiencies, with lots of staff, that, frankly do not do much. We have worked with many of these 'acronymed' firms in the past, and frankly, found out that we can get much more work done, both qualitatively and quantitatively for the number of people they employ.
after sending my package out ... just got another reply from a small DC firm stating:
"Thank you for your fine portfolio and interest in our firm. The current economic situation precludes us from considering any hiring at all in the foreseeable future. We will keep your resume on file for future
reference."
...I've heard this a time or two in recent months.
I havent been in this convo yet, so I have to say that I am still reading everyone's comments, but is there a general consensus, or recommendation for what everyone is doing? I get the feeling that its about time to begin looking in other fields, at least until things begin to pick back up...whenever that may be
I am currently finishing up my masters, so I havent had the chance to be laid off. My sincere sympathy to all of those who have. I will be finishing up in May though, and get the impression that I am going to have a tough time finding a job (to say it lightly)
No +2. You will find a gig. The natural cycle is Massive Layoffs every 10 years of people between 25 - 45 then replace those peole with low paid interns and lower the quality of work, then massive layoffs, then hire new crop of low paid interns and repeat cycle
I got laid off a month ago..it was the fourth round or so of layoffs at the corporate firm i was working for the past two years here in FL. I have to say that I am pretty happy about it because I hated the shitty work I was doing and my bosses hated me for that. But, it is weird to be racking up credit card debt and trying to figure out how to stretch those measly unemployment checks.
Am seriously considering the following:
- moving somewhere else...
- getting an easy job and focusing on ARE's
- becoming a housewife and forgetting architecture altogether
I am in the same position +2, I will also be graduating in May. My goal is to get started immediately on becoming licensed so that I am not just delegated into "intern" status. I am happy that they changed the rules so that recent grads can do IDP and ARE at the same time in NY state...
I have just about given up on applying to traditional firms right now, but that does not mean all is lost...I am just glad that I am graduating soon so that i don't have to apply for anymore financial aid...
I want to teach, which can be done with a master's degree...but in order to have a couple of options, I am going to apply to a couple PhD programs for next fall...
No offense to the '09 grads and '08, who are jumping into this abyss, but this isn't half as bad as 90-92. That was literally an architectural apocalypse. But who knows, this could get much worse. Also - 80-82 was dam near meltdown but that hit the older workers harder from what my bosses tell me. Younger staff had a fighting chance in the early 80's.
I don't think that it is a discussion about who has it worse...
I keep hearing this and it reminds me of when parents would say, "Back in my day we had to walk 50 miles to school in 10 feet of snow, you just don't know how good you have it these days!"
If you have been laid off, or a recent/soon to be grad who can't find a job to save your life then who cares what happened 15 years ago if there are no jobs in 2008?
if you are experienced then at least you have that...if you are coming out of school and there are no jobs...how are suppose to get experience?
I hear, and see, it differently. On the day of the Lehman Brothers' collapse I saw George Soros in conversation. In his 60+ years of trading he reckoned this is/would be the worst downturn.
Relax, you're still under the University's umbrella for six more months so you won't feel any impact until you graduate. Clamfan is definitely right though, you'll figure it out. I graduated in May and never got an offer.
15 years ago matters because it was a similar scenario. Sounds like they lost an entire graduating year then to other professions. Luckily, I picked up a part-time job that'll hold me through for a while. Though you won't have financial aid to apply for, you may have loans you need to start paying back, which in that case, find a plan B.
^ but the trade deficite rose along with the overall increase in global trade so it's sort of a misleading graph. Maybe trade defecit as a percentage of GDP if such graph existed may be more appropriate
when i was looking for work for 4 years and came up short in the firms/etc.... and everyone told me this that and the other..... now you folks know it feels to not have shit and have to hustle to get by.....
case in point..............
and as LB said a few posts up
"In ten years employers may look back and see that every person they interview had a 2-3 year stint in 08-10 doing video games, or web design, or construction management, cabinetry, whatever - and I think those things on your resume look better than 2 years as a barrista"
that might work but it hasnt worked for me..... so just leave the profession and do something else......
:crizzler::
"good luck folks.... but on the other hand
when i was looking for work for 4 years and came up short in the firms/etc.... and everyone told me this that and the other..... now you folks know it feels to not have shit and have to hustle to get by.....
case in point.............."
In pretty much every recent thread where you have talked about your experiences, I have only seen encouragement, appreciation for your work and well-meant advice. Why the spite towards the people who are now unemployed?
Re what crizzler said about what LB said:
"that might work but it hasnt worked for me..... so just leave the profession and do something else...."
LB is referring to the fact that many, many people will be outside the profession at the same time. Your experience outside of the profession is not analogous to what so many will experience now.
i know of 7 people laid off at small to medium sized firms in atlanta since friday. we've definitely seen a rapid pick up in the number of resumes coming in. most of the people seem to have just been laid off in the past couple of weeks. right now, in atlanta, the rough count of layoffs in the last six months is right at 400-450. that might be conservative, since most of the larger commercial firms have shed some significant numbers. i can guarantee the market here will not be able to absorb that many people back into other jobs anytime soon.
the reason this downturn gets compared to 90-93 is that the profession lost a lot of people who were laid off and never came back. in some ways, it took a decade or more to recover from that blow. i think there is a fear among some of the older people (lets define that as 40ish) that we'll see a similar exodus and that's just not a good thing long term.
there are some huge, fundamentally different aspects to this downturn from that one. first, the sheer speed of this one is fairly frightening. the curve downward then took 12-18 months, bottomed out, and gradually started to pick up again. this took less than 6 months for the wheels to come completely off (although it might be argued that the fundamental forces behind the drop have been in play for 18 months or more). second, every sector of construction is getting hammered at the same time. last time around, it tended to hit the commercial and other non-institutional sectors the hardest. right now, though, with the bond market in such a state of flux, a lot of state and local entities are not going to be able to sell bonds to finance construction projects (at least right now), which may kill the one 'safe' sector left for most non-commercial projects. beyond that, only federal work seems really safe and plentiful. great if your a larger or niche firm there, bad for everyone else. third, last time around, we were reeling from a hit to a part of the financial sector, but overall lending just didn't abruptly stop like it has now. that fact alone is going to make this recovery much steeper and harder than last time, probably much more difficult than anything any of us have lived through.
the big question for everyone going forward is how long can you hold out (speaking more to firm owners than employees)? this is especially true when credit lines are being frozen, aging receivables are piling up, most of the current work is winding its way through, and the prospect of new work is increasingly growing smaller and hyper competitive.
my prediction is that we're about halfway through with layoffs at the firms that had a high exposure to the commercial and residential work. we're going to see more smaller to midsize firms get hit as their current workload winds down and they have a harder time getting a piece of the shrinking pie. more mergers will happen, some firms will fold, some will reorganize into different entities altogether. those companies which have a strong niche in institutional work will tend to fare better, but they're susceptible to issues like everyone else. overall, i think we're a little more than halfway to the bottom. once we see the wave of commercial and then credit card defaults become more prominent, we'll know whether we're truly screwed or if there's some light visible ahead.
what i was sort of implying is that those that have been layed off will have to treat themselves as being 'self-employed' and actually go out and hustle/market/bid/etc themselves to get work...
it will be hard for everyone but as for what i have experienced over the years, now really isnt the best time to have to 'learn' the traits of being 'self-employed'. there will be alot of under cutting/etc going on and then making sure these companies that you might do work/contract for, will be able to pay you on time/etc...
some areas you might want to look into
exhibit design/engineering
millwork draftsman at shops
adjunct professors at schools
high school classes teaching basic design/autocad
maybe hookup with a trade school and teach cad
go to the local union hall and see if they have 'labor' positions open..electrical/hvac/etc
these re some of the things i had to do over the years in order to stay afloat.....it's a different mentality than having a 9-5 where you dont have to think about finding work...
This is the new reality for the next four years or so, theres just not enough money in the system, theres a generational shift, boomers who account for the most capital spending our tightening up as they near retirement and lose money in 401Ks, the yunger folks just dont make enough to even buy a car let alone a house and appliances - theses restructurings happen in 30 year cycles.
there can be as much money as is wanted in the system . it's faith based
ya with the aging population we loose the most as the grandparents die and the parents retire and the burden will be shifted to an ill prepared youth, as they were a rebellious youth before that put separation in place well before this generation.
but we are learning to live with in our means in new realities placed on us by forefathers with no foresight.
I've been wondering about the older generation of Architects. The 1970's grads or older that are nearing retirement age. Seeing how their 401k's have probably been destroyed like everyone else's I'm wondering how long they will soldier on. In a prolonged recession I see a long wait for "new" blood at the management of most firms. This I see as one of the more damaging things for the future of this business.
Layoffs....layoffs......
-Friend was layed of from SOM SF along with a bunch of others on Tuesday
-Field Paoli layed of 7 last Monday(herd they are going for another round next week)
-ELS layed off 17
-Ratcliff layed of about 6 last week
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ all in the SF Bay Area.
-My office still has tons of work(knock on wood)
Had my review on Monday...pretty sure I'm not going anywheres.
I'm thinking of becoming a hobo - riding the rails and offering 3D modeling in exchange for a hot meal.
I've already got my bindle and my harmonica.
I'll be in the grand Archinect studio! In fact I already have a web site for us! No, really.
> LB – There is no work. I’m at a small office and this situation has occurred swiftly. We had to lay off half the staff 6 weeks ago when 75% of the work went on hold quite literally overnight but we really thought the last big project was going to stay put. It represented about 12 months of work for the remaining staff and we have another really big project that went on hold that we were hoping would be a go again come the spring. That second project alone coming back would mean we could staff up to 100% again and have work for 18 months. So, if things turn around we know that at least these 2 big projects will come back. How far out that will be is the question and after a record-breaking day on the DOW like today I’m not feeling confident that we are talking 1-3 months here.
The #1 has the most to lose here. He can’t collect and I can’t even imagine what it would be like for him to find a job after owning his own (very successful until these last 2 months) business for 20 years.
I just came out of an office meeting and it is looking more and more like tomorrow is the last billable day. I did present a new business idea to the firm that was well accepted and I think will well serve a certain market when things get better. We would use the downtime to get the foundation in place for the new venture but income from it is a long way off. I now have to really look at my own situation and decide what is best for my family. I have a wife, a son and someone new on the way and although ownership stake in a business that could be successful 5 years from now would be great I need to figure out how we can survive without burning though everything we have worked so hard for over the years.
thresh, I'm so sorry. This archinect studio idea is sounding better and better all the time... I'm in.
this is starting to look very ugly. i was watching the bbc and they had a story about the loss of jobs in china and the possiblility that if the jobs dry up in china their could be massive civil unrest as the people have sucked up to the government in exchange for jobs. my friend in chicago who owns a travel business said that she has become semi retired is going to sell her house has laid off staff etc.
Good luck Thresh.
And toaster, I love me a bindle somethin' fierce.
one job thats hiring is the army. they are meeting their quotas again.
crowbert - and you already have a good hobo name...
thresh- that really sucks - hang in there.
Lookin’ Between the Couch Cushions for Spare Change
That’s what today was like: looking between the couch cushions for spare change. A couple of small things happened that we would typically pass along to consultants or contractors but today we embraced them. It’s all non-traditional work, in one case acting as an owner’s representative and the other being a general contractor/securing bids for a very small project. It’s not much but it will get us billable through next week.
Times are different. You have to think different.
Niles Bolton just laid off 1/3 of their staff. More expected. Add Berryrio and SK&I to that list.
The good news is that HOK in DC is hiring for anyone looking. Apparently they are looking to expand their office from 120 or so to about 170. That's the word on the street plus from people who work there.
Apparently SOM Chicago laid off a bunch of people this past Thursday. I've heard numbers between 30 and 50, but can't confirm. And the last thing I heard from that office was that they had pleny of work and were quite busy... Scary stuff.
Is there anyone working in architecture anymore?
GENSLER did a round of layoffs, heard there may be a second round beginning next year
This might be the start of the end of the 'megafirms'. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
SOM NY has been laying off the whole year and three weeks ago they laid off 50 people in one day. and I heard more is coming.
sameolddoctor, megafirms design suck anyway... and I agree, maybe it is a good thing. I have a feeling American architecture is so stuck in the past partly because of them.
Sameold doctor, a lot of these firms are not Megafirms.
gensler som and hok aren't mega?
they certainly aren't boutique
archmed, most of them are. Say what you will a lot of these firms have very high inefficiencies, with lots of staff, that, frankly do not do much. We have worked with many of these 'acronymed' firms in the past, and frankly, found out that we can get much more work done, both qualitatively and quantitatively for the number of people they employ.
holz, not talking about Gensler and HOK -- more like the SK&Is and Niles Boltons of the world.
Sameolddoctor, I agree with you on everything. Way too much overhead and making of work at these places.
i had never heard of niles bolton, and kinda wish i hadn't googled them.
maybe it isn't a bad thing for some of these firms to... streamline.
Unfortunately, in offices big or small, its the intern-level people who are getting screwed. Mostly.
I can confirm that SOM Chicago laid off 70 and more are to come.
Chicago has officially been hit by the downturn!
Since the SOM "breakup" and moving of the HQ to NYC the Chicago office has been a backwater
after sending my package out ... just got another reply from a small DC firm stating:
"Thank you for your fine portfolio and interest in our firm. The current economic situation precludes us from considering any hiring at all in the foreseeable future. We will keep your resume on file for future
reference."
...I've heard this a time or two in recent months.
Whats up everybody,
I havent been in this convo yet, so I have to say that I am still reading everyone's comments, but is there a general consensus, or recommendation for what everyone is doing? I get the feeling that its about time to begin looking in other fields, at least until things begin to pick back up...whenever that may be
I am currently finishing up my masters, so I havent had the chance to be laid off. My sincere sympathy to all of those who have. I will be finishing up in May though, and get the impression that I am going to have a tough time finding a job (to say it lightly)
No +2. You will find a gig. The natural cycle is Massive Layoffs every 10 years of people between 25 - 45 then replace those peole with low paid interns and lower the quality of work, then massive layoffs, then hire new crop of low paid interns and repeat cycle
I got laid off a month ago..it was the fourth round or so of layoffs at the corporate firm i was working for the past two years here in FL. I have to say that I am pretty happy about it because I hated the shitty work I was doing and my bosses hated me for that. But, it is weird to be racking up credit card debt and trying to figure out how to stretch those measly unemployment checks.
Am seriously considering the following:
- moving somewhere else...
- getting an easy job and focusing on ARE's
- becoming a housewife and forgetting architecture altogether
probably #2 makes the most sense.
I am in the same position +2, I will also be graduating in May. My goal is to get started immediately on becoming licensed so that I am not just delegated into "intern" status. I am happy that they changed the rules so that recent grads can do IDP and ARE at the same time in NY state...
I have just about given up on applying to traditional firms right now, but that does not mean all is lost...I am just glad that I am graduating soon so that i don't have to apply for anymore financial aid...
I want to teach, which can be done with a master's degree...but in order to have a couple of options, I am going to apply to a couple PhD programs for next fall...
good luck to the '09 grads ...
No offense to the '09 grads and '08, who are jumping into this abyss, but this isn't half as bad as 90-92. That was literally an architectural apocalypse. But who knows, this could get much worse. Also - 80-82 was dam near meltdown but that hit the older workers harder from what my bosses tell me. Younger staff had a fighting chance in the early 80's.
I don't think that it is a discussion about who has it worse...
I keep hearing this and it reminds me of when parents would say, "Back in my day we had to walk 50 miles to school in 10 feet of snow, you just don't know how good you have it these days!"
If you have been laid off, or a recent/soon to be grad who can't find a job to save your life then who cares what happened 15 years ago if there are no jobs in 2008?
if you are experienced then at least you have that...if you are coming out of school and there are no jobs...how are suppose to get experience?
Figure it out?
clamfan,
why don't you tell me since you are an expert
"This isn't half as bad as 90-92".
I hear, and see, it differently. On the day of the Lehman Brothers' collapse I saw George Soros in conversation. In his 60+ years of trading he reckoned this is/would be the worst downturn.
I'm watching with horror as it all collapses.
gyrlusocute005:
Relax, you're still under the University's umbrella for six more months so you won't feel any impact until you graduate. Clamfan is definitely right though, you'll figure it out. I graduated in May and never got an offer.
15 years ago matters because it was a similar scenario. Sounds like they lost an entire graduating year then to other professions. Luckily, I picked up a part-time job that'll hold me through for a while. Though you won't have financial aid to apply for, you may have loans you need to start paying back, which in that case, find a plan B.
look at the size and volume of trade difference between now and the 90s
oops ^ (be carefull when putting revision clouds ;)
there
^ but the trade deficite rose along with the overall increase in global trade so it's sort of a misleading graph. Maybe trade defecit as a percentage of GDP if such graph existed may be more appropriate
Got a 20% cut in pay (4-day workweek)....dont quite know what to do. Boss doesn't want to lay anyone off so thats a good sign.
Got a 20% cut in pay (4-day workweek)....dont quite know what to do. Boss doesn't want to lay anyone off so thats a good sign.
good luck folks.... but on the other hand
when i was looking for work for 4 years and came up short in the firms/etc.... and everyone told me this that and the other..... now you folks know it feels to not have shit and have to hustle to get by.....
case in point..............
and as LB said a few posts up
"In ten years employers may look back and see that every person they interview had a 2-3 year stint in 08-10 doing video games, or web design, or construction management, cabinetry, whatever - and I think those things on your resume look better than 2 years as a barrista"
that might work but it hasnt worked for me..... so just leave the profession and do something else......
learn to think out of the box......
:crizzler::
"good luck folks.... but on the other hand
when i was looking for work for 4 years and came up short in the firms/etc.... and everyone told me this that and the other..... now you folks know it feels to not have shit and have to hustle to get by.....
case in point.............."
In pretty much every recent thread where you have talked about your experiences, I have only seen encouragement, appreciation for your work and well-meant advice. Why the spite towards the people who are now unemployed?
Re what crizzler said about what LB said:
"that might work but it hasnt worked for me..... so just leave the profession and do something else...."
LB is referring to the fact that many, many people will be outside the profession at the same time. Your experience outside of the profession is not analogous to what so many will experience now.
what kungapa said.
:c: having noted your disillusion with the industry, and your recent success in finding employment, I am pleased.
However, individual success is not always appropriate metaphor, or polite conversation.
does anyone else think of this when they see the thread title?
nice, dread :)
I just hope we can win a game...
i know of 7 people laid off at small to medium sized firms in atlanta since friday. we've definitely seen a rapid pick up in the number of resumes coming in. most of the people seem to have just been laid off in the past couple of weeks. right now, in atlanta, the rough count of layoffs in the last six months is right at 400-450. that might be conservative, since most of the larger commercial firms have shed some significant numbers. i can guarantee the market here will not be able to absorb that many people back into other jobs anytime soon.
the reason this downturn gets compared to 90-93 is that the profession lost a lot of people who were laid off and never came back. in some ways, it took a decade or more to recover from that blow. i think there is a fear among some of the older people (lets define that as 40ish) that we'll see a similar exodus and that's just not a good thing long term.
there are some huge, fundamentally different aspects to this downturn from that one. first, the sheer speed of this one is fairly frightening. the curve downward then took 12-18 months, bottomed out, and gradually started to pick up again. this took less than 6 months for the wheels to come completely off (although it might be argued that the fundamental forces behind the drop have been in play for 18 months or more). second, every sector of construction is getting hammered at the same time. last time around, it tended to hit the commercial and other non-institutional sectors the hardest. right now, though, with the bond market in such a state of flux, a lot of state and local entities are not going to be able to sell bonds to finance construction projects (at least right now), which may kill the one 'safe' sector left for most non-commercial projects. beyond that, only federal work seems really safe and plentiful. great if your a larger or niche firm there, bad for everyone else. third, last time around, we were reeling from a hit to a part of the financial sector, but overall lending just didn't abruptly stop like it has now. that fact alone is going to make this recovery much steeper and harder than last time, probably much more difficult than anything any of us have lived through.
the big question for everyone going forward is how long can you hold out (speaking more to firm owners than employees)? this is especially true when credit lines are being frozen, aging receivables are piling up, most of the current work is winding its way through, and the prospect of new work is increasingly growing smaller and hyper competitive.
my prediction is that we're about halfway through with layoffs at the firms that had a high exposure to the commercial and residential work. we're going to see more smaller to midsize firms get hit as their current workload winds down and they have a harder time getting a piece of the shrinking pie. more mergers will happen, some firms will fold, some will reorganize into different entities altogether. those companies which have a strong niche in institutional work will tend to fare better, but they're susceptible to issues like everyone else. overall, i think we're a little more than halfway to the bottom. once we see the wave of commercial and then credit card defaults become more prominent, we'll know whether we're truly screwed or if there's some light visible ahead.
maybe my text was read out of context.....
what i was sort of implying is that those that have been layed off will have to treat themselves as being 'self-employed' and actually go out and hustle/market/bid/etc themselves to get work...
it will be hard for everyone but as for what i have experienced over the years, now really isnt the best time to have to 'learn' the traits of being 'self-employed'. there will be alot of under cutting/etc going on and then making sure these companies that you might do work/contract for, will be able to pay you on time/etc...
some areas you might want to look into
exhibit design/engineering
millwork draftsman at shops
adjunct professors at schools
high school classes teaching basic design/autocad
maybe hookup with a trade school and teach cad
go to the local union hall and see if they have 'labor' positions open..electrical/hvac/etc
these re some of the things i had to do over the years in order to stay afloat.....it's a different mentality than having a 9-5 where you dont have to think about finding work...
This is the new reality for the next four years or so, theres just not enough money in the system, theres a generational shift, boomers who account for the most capital spending our tightening up as they near retirement and lose money in 401Ks, the yunger folks just dont make enough to even buy a car let alone a house and appliances - theses restructurings happen in 30 year cycles.
20 years...
there can be as much money as is wanted in the system . it's faith based
ya with the aging population we loose the most as the grandparents die and the parents retire and the burden will be shifted to an ill prepared youth, as they were a rebellious youth before that put separation in place well before this generation.
but we are learning to live with in our means in new realities placed on us by forefathers with no foresight.
7th generation???
I've been wondering about the older generation of Architects. The 1970's grads or older that are nearing retirement age. Seeing how their 401k's have probably been destroyed like everyone else's I'm wondering how long they will soldier on. In a prolonged recession I see a long wait for "new" blood at the management of most firms. This I see as one of the more damaging things for the future of this business.
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