Bloodclot's description of his studio is quite similar to my (former) office. I was running a project that was still in the early stages of development and I was responsible for the entire project, conceptualization, design, programming, etc. The design I had produced was received very well by the client and was praised highly by them. As the project progressed, the chief operating officer (that's right, not an architect), started to involve himself in the project by taking part of the client communication. That evolved into him telling me how to do certain things despite him having minimal architectural experience and minimal knowledge of the project. He had been working outside of the profession for 10-12 years before joining our office, which meant that, given his age, I had more architectural experience than he did, but he still had a higher position in the office than myself.
For a major meeting with city officials, the client requested that one representative from our office attend, and as the project architect, that would have been myself. The week before the meeting, I was informed that the COO would be going as well. OK, fine, I was still expecting to present the project, and I had not been told otherwise, so I prepared a powerpoint presentation and wrote out my speech, with the sections specifically written for each image.
The meeting didn't go quite as I had expected.
The guy secretly copied a large part of my presentation during a practice runthrough. At the beginning of the meeting, after he made introductions, he proceeded to present the part of the presentation which he copied VERBATIM. Despite throwing off my prepared speech, and being completely furious, I still went through the rest of it which went very well despite everything.
I waited a couple weeks to give myself time to cool off, and confronted him. He claimed that what he did was the right thing to do.
And despite that I had a track record of good work on that and past projects, I was fired a month later. I was told that it was purely economic even after I questioned if there were personality conflicts issues.
Aquapura, management should stop telling lies and just tell their nervous-as-hell employees that they're in dire straights and that more layoffs are to come. I know many firms that do this and from my standpoint I appreciate that straighforwardness much more. That way we might have an actual second or two to organize our lives and look for plan B. See the earlier part of this thread on how SOM employees were literally tossed into the streets within seconds of their layoffs.
Let's be realistic folks. I don't see this profession surviving next winter.
If you're a mid or senior-level person who suddenly has a previously uninvolved principal or other senior-level person closely monitoring your work, hovering over your desk, and suddenly attending all your meetings, beware. Often this is a clue that you're on the lay-off list.
In defense of firms "not telling" their employees that firm's finances are in jeopardy and there is little pending paying work ahead, note that this sort of situation can occur quickly, and firm may have been sincere in assessing situation as "ok" a month ago, and even sometimes, a week ago. Clients can literally disappear overnight, stopping a project, or stopping payments.
Business conditions can be unpredictable. Particularly for firms that often "carry a job" while waiting for client such as real estate developers to obtain construction financing before paying their significant portion of architectural services fees. Large firms have been stiffed by clients in past; I can think of two very large high-rise projects in Chicago were this occurred.
And this is no defense of spendthrift firm owners. There are not a lot of partner-architects here in Chicago living in mansions and driving expensive sports cars.
Chicago, I second that. Another reason I've witnessed why firms don't tell employees is that they don't want people walking out with sensitive data or damaging client relations if they know they will be terminated. I don't condone this attitude, but it certainly is a reality.
And while it may be a small amount compared to the big picture, it's always disappointing to see people consolidate their own position at the expense of others, using the downsizing as an opportunity to do so.
To add onto what Chicago said about "not telling" about financial details, etc. another thing is work hoarding. You tell everyone that layoffs are coming and everyone keeps a death grip on any bit of work they can to proove they are essential to the firm. Collaborative work becomes non-exsistent and the overall product suffers.
The profession will survive, all be it probably much smaller. Eventually most clients will see through the firms that kept on staff with poor abilities and those people will get theirs eventually. Will the laid off staff stick around long enough for a recovery? That's another question.
aquapura wrote: Will the laid off staff stick around long enough for a recovery?
The problem that young professionals have is their debt obligations, student loans, credit cards, car loans, and god forbid, a mortgage. Architectural education is expensive and I often see my peers living well beyond their means. I think the profession is misrepresented to the students who are recruited into architecture schools. College recruiters seriously misrepresent what the real potential earnings and risk are in the architectural profession. When the recovery comes around I hope those mentors out there focus on personal financing and getting out of debt as much as any other IDP objective.
Women tend to earn lower salaries through out their careers and tend to agitate less for promotions and salary increases. A cost-effective (or even bargain) employee is likely to ride out several waves of lay-offs, if otherwise unaffected by office politics.
NYTimes has done several articles noting that women in professions have been less affected by lay-offs than men.
my student loan payments monthly are more than my rent, credit cards, utilities, food, gas, insurance combined. being unemployed is tough. I've been unemployed for ten months now and my student loans have not budged, they've grown. and I don't foresee them going down having to settle for some $10 hr bullshit pay the rent type job.
trick is that I have to make like 40 grand a year to live and make payments that are more than just interest only payments, and I don't see myself being able to do that for at least a little while.
my brother wants to go to emory (out of state tuition) and I told him being potentially 225k (no family support-same as me) in debt for a 4 year bachelors in writing will stick with him till he dies. and for some reason its shrugged off like eh, oh well. so some young people are just ignorant to it, so thats also to blame.
I loved my education and what I got out of it, but i wish either I would have woken up and realized what I was burdening myself with, or had people tell me bluntly that I would have to pay so much for so long. neither of which happened.
ah, another sob story from joe. I'm just going to hate having to default on my loans and having my life taken over by debtors. which is entirely possible if things keep going like this for me. less than two months and counting for unemployment. the countdown begins. and to top it off, I cant get a job in other related fields (construction, development, graphic design). fast food places around here are now only taking people with experience. fuckin oregon. now I'm thinking of moving back to pittsburgh (cheap!!!) so I can save money. wow.
just had to vent. sorry. I know something will come along for me soon, its just aggravating at times.
I think the profession is misrepresented to the students who are recruited into architecture schools. College recruiters seriously misrepresent what the real potential earnings and risk are in the architectural profession.
I've never heard of a college recruiter telling a potential student that Architecture is a high paying profession. And everytime I got a firm tour while in high school or as an undergrad I was always told that this isn't a high paying career. The problem is the public perception that Architects are highly paid. Colleges don't need to misrepresent because the students already have that ingrained in their minds.
Where colleges do misrepresent the profession is in how they train everyone to be "designers" and graduate them into a world were over half their time will be spent doing production work. Every single new hire I've ever worked with has complained that they aren't designing all day.
One thing I'd like to be more widely know is the cyclical nature of Architecture. As an undergrad student in my early 20's I had no idea of the bang/bust nature of this profession. Maybe if we are all trained to expect a downturn right around the corner we'd learn to live more within our means. That could've gone a long way to helping us in the current situation.
There is one really big problem with the compensation now days. It is down, adjusted, 30% from the 80s. This means that architects now are in different neighborhoods than the architecture buying public. They run in different socioeconomic circles than the property managers. This split from the peer group is going to have very consequences long term for the profession. My theory.
aquapura- couldn't agree more when you said "One thing I'd like to be more widely know is the cyclical nature of Architecture. As an undergrad student in my early 20's I had no idea of the bang/bust nature of this profession."
Professors, IDP mentors, principals, and others know exactly how this works and yet no one mentioned this UNTIL after the first round of layoffs at my firm. I was in school during 9/11, and my professors had to have been around during the 90's, and yet this was never discussed in any pro-practice or other architecture-business related class as to what was happening. WHY NOT?! It IS a cycle- and every 8-10 years this happens.
I think another issue is basic personal finance. We get wrapped up in making models, animations, presentations, etc... we forget basic calculations, a budget, perusing money websites every once in awhile to see what's going on. My side hobby is finance. I would never want it as a real job- but thank God I figured out a few things before I was out cold on the street. Yet I see many of my colleagues in this same predicament.
The other issue - that has been widely covered in the media lately- is the overwhelming pressure put on students in ANY major to take out loans to cover their tuition and expenses. This is done by administration + staff all the time and gets exceedingly worse right before registration time. The students are told they can't register for classes if they don't pay, and are pressured to sign loan documents there on the spot and told "you can pay for it after you graduate". Not having been in that situation before many students sign without thinking- because the prospect of not graduating is worse than whatever that loan payment might be in the future. That is predatory lending at it's finest in every academic institution in this country.
Up until now it's been all about those poor unfortunate management-level people who have had to make these painful decision to let this entire generation of architects go.
And as my posts and responses to them indicate I have absolutely no right whatsoever being frustrated by the way any of this is being handled.
damn, med - how many times do you feel you need to make EXACTLY the same point before you realize nobody much cares what you have to say on the subject?
we got bored with your whining months ago.
for every one of these so called "abuse" stories you cling to, I can give you five about intern level staff abusing their employer's good graces.
and, before you pounce, no - such stories do not give employers any excuse to heap abuse in return.
archie - nothing is wrong per say, just that I wanted to try and see other areas. Im not sure that I want to buy a house and settle just yet. but it would probably be a great investment to buy now. thats for sure.
med.
04/24/09 12:45 babs, I don't ever recall saying what I said in my last post.
what you said in your prior post:
med.
04/24/09 9:01 Up until now it's been all about those poor unfortunate management-level people who have had to make these painful decision to let this entire generation of architects go.
just for the record, a sampling of some of your recent posts, just from this particular thread:
med.
04/23/09 10:38 I've heard many gut wrenching stories similar to this -- of course with many of the posters defending those kinds of actions. I know that at one firm here, the management people made a promise to everyone that their jobs were safe for at least another year but ended up laying 20% of them off and giving the rest 20% pay cuts only a month later. So we all know what a steaming crock of shit it is when people say our jobs are "safe."
med.
04/23/09 12:40 … management should stop telling lies and just tell their nervous-as-hell employees that they're in dire straits and that more layoffs are to come.
med.
04/13/09 13:42 Generally management of firms keep all their financial matters tightly sealed so we have no idea what happens or really what to do once the axe falls. Once you guys herd us into that room and tell us your "great news", have us escorted off the premises immediately like criminals and have an education-less HR person (who apparently has leagues better job security than we do) assure that all of our belongings will be mailed to us, what are we supposed to think???
med.
04/03/09 12:35 okay since you are in the position of tossing people out into the streets, I'm very curious about something. Why do you lay people off in masses? Isn't it already a humiliating enough experience to lose your job and to add insult to injury, you have to herd everyone together to face their slaughter.
med.
04/02/09 10:02 Yes, they were given bonuses and they were apparently very busy but they signed shady contracts with shady clients, didn't get paid, didn't have accumulate nearly enough fee, cut everyone's pay and then laid of their most skilled staff. They had a massive lay off towards the end of last year and the principals made a promise to everyone that the worse was over and that everyone's job was "safe." So NO ONE saw it coming.
med.
02/27/09 6:54 But you have to understand that when I see people on here (of greater influence at their offices) acting preachy to people who just went through a layoff, it really gets under my skin. The last thing they want to hear are more excuses and justification in light of the fact that they have to make a sudden unexpected life-changing revolution -- I mean seriously folks!
med.
02/26/09 14:41 Here we go again -- more senior-level people making more excuses for their own incompetence and their own failure in keeping their firms afloat. That's right -- it's ALL the fault of the victims here!
med.
02/10/09 9:20 I know of an architecture firm that axed most of their junior level people and the remaining ones got 30% paycuts while the principals, PMs and senior associates got 5% paycuts. And apparently this seems to be a common occurrence when I brought it up to some friends of mine. I'm sure some of you "brilliant" senior level people will have some ridiculous explanation for that one! I don't mean to be offensive to some of you but the reason I've been using this abrasive tone is because we have heard you guys do all of the talking while the rest of us have been completely silenced.
med.
02/09/09 12:26 We're being made to suffer for someone else's fuck up. Whether it's from the piss-poor management of the firm, whether it's from the government, or from the actions of selfish wall street criminals -- it's not our fault.
med.
02/06/09 13:58 We've already heard all of this millions and millions of times and it gets so repetitive, so asinine, and sooooooo tired -- It's like people never really got over the 1950s business model and continue rehashing the same nightmare again and again. You will tell us about how "difficult" it is for you to make these decisions and then herd about 50 people into a room and categorically toss them onto the streets like rubbish while shedding a few crocodile tears. You don't think we've experienced this before?
In the end of the day you're still sitting pretty high atop your perch at XYZ Design with the profits you received in the boom times of 2004-2007. In the meantime, we're all out on the streets begging, heaping, and groveling for one of your little "informational interviews." And those of us who were fortunate to last through your third round of layoffs will sacrifice just about everything we have left (including our dignity and pride) to do as much work as possible and do whatever we can to keep our already unsatisfactory pay and pray every day that you don't either reduce our salary or flat out toss us onto the street like a the vermin we are. We're the ones losing sleep and having nightmares about the specific nature of how you plan on delivering the "great news" to us. We already understand all of this. Do you really think we need to be hearing these fucking lame excuses here too?
med.
02/06/09 12:38 The only thing a guy like me gives a rats ass about is my employment and being able to hang onto my employment. We don't really give a flying fuck about of your excuses (whether they're justified or not) as to why you need to let people go. We've heard them all before and it's the same tire, worn-out, 1950s mentality rubbish that has been tried over and over and over.
med.
02/03/09 9:12 We're all victims of someone else's mistake. We've done nothing wrong here.
med.
01/10/09 7:21 I was talking with a friend of mine yesterday and he was telling me how sick he was of this. We bust our asses, stay until midnight to meet nearly impossible deadlines, we get paid shit in the first place ... And what's the payback? ZERO job security.
oh come on. lets not completely kill this thread. if you dont like what he says just skip it, roll your eyes, hit your desk, whatever. its really not a big deal. its a fucking discussion board. get over it.
Just to screw things up with a positive note, our firm is probably about a month away from taking some unemployed folks off the dole. I don't know if LA is starting to turn around, but my friends at other non-corporate firms seem to be looking to do the same.
Babs, that's some serious obsession you have there. Very scary quite frankly. Didn't really prove a point -- you just quoted all of the things I said on the board. Obviously it's true, as I've said many times on how frustrated we can be by upper management decisions or how upper management in some cases has not really helped the profession during this economic downturn -- Not all and certainly only a minority.
Anyway, It's a diuscussion and it's a message board for people to discuss these kinds of things so naturally you're going to hear lots od opinions that obviously won't really jive with what you say. If you don't like what I say and cannot handle it either ignore or continue preaching -- all I'll do is respond.
Yet, ss you've seen, I've recieved countless threats on this because of my opinions from several people. Please enthrall me about the "professionalism" behind that.
med - IMO, you are one self-delusional son of a gun! I don't think I've ever encountered anyone so self-absorbed by the absolute correctness of your own views and so dismissive of the views of those who don't see it your way.
to me, the value of any discussion board is the opportunity to learn from others and broaden one's own perspective - not just project one's own frustrations. I've been reading your posts for a long time through your multiple incarnations. I've seen little, if any, growth or maturity. that's so sad.
I'm not management of any sort. I have felt like med does now in the past. Fortunately, I've grown up and gotten over it. I learned that bitching at the Masters of the Universe didn't do anyone any good especially ME! I'm sick of this pissing contest. And, that is all that it is. It sucks out there right now. But, med, you have a damn job and you haven't been laid off. You have nothing to complain about! You need to be keeping your nose to the grindstone and be thankful that your employed. I've been laid off the last two May's. Right now I still want to be employed on May 31st. The people above me are working their tails off to get us new work. I'm cleaning up details on a project that is getting ready to pour concrete. My boss realizes that he has 13 people depending on him. Your friends that have lost jobs have been dealt a tough hand. It's there problem not yours. You aren't helping them out by telling their stories on Archinect. One of my old boss's told someone that I know that is unemployed basically to get out of the field of Architecture. That's how bad things are out there. You have brought up the same crap over and over. Guess what? There will be more layoffs at the end of the month and the end of the quarter. Unfortunately, we work in a boom/bust profession and right now it's bust. Go play the lotto...
med - and yet you exercise no self-restraint whatsoever when insulting others who don't see the world through your eyes. you're a small minded buffoon.
lb - slowly is the key word. billings didn't have much room to continue falling and, yes, the stimulus is working a little bit for us (just a bit).
inquiries is to be expected - i wouldn't read too much into that number. we've gotten lots of calls from groups who know the construction market is flat and are 'interested' in building, if only from a timing standpoint. this doesn't take into account that most of them won't be able to secure funding to actually do anything. but it counts as an inquiry.
what i'm surprised a certain person on this thread failed to note in the aia survey is that principals are taking salary reductions the hardest. of course, it doesn't change the fact that we (those evil, 50's mindset owners) are all swine, spreading our nasty flu around, trying to infect everyone we work with....
we're not at the bottom yet people. give it another 4-5 months and let's see if we bottom out on unemployment numbers, what the bank stress tests say, and, most importantly, if the ted spread drops down to something below the high 90's. once that hits the teens, lending will be back to normal...
med: "sorry you feel that way about someone you don't know"
how many firms, and firm owners, have you abused here based on nothing more than heresay from your buds in the industry or rumours that you've picked up on the street.
Jabber say whatever makes you feel satisfied. If all you have is personal insults and name calling perhaps you should just stick to making posts about "not getting laid." Perhaps that post contains all that high powered "growth and maturity" you were preaching to me about.
Joe,
Things got hairy in Pitt during the fall and winter when Perkins Eastman, Burt Hill, WTW, etc began to really contract. However, some friends of mine work in a few small-to-mid-size firms there and they seem to be hanging in there and have seen things starting to pick up lately. Other firms have seen a rapid rise in inquiries at least...
eh, burt hill. not looking forward to that but. it would be a job which is better than none!
and things were contracting before that! I got laid off at the beginning of summer, in a medium sized retail firm that in the end ended up doing like 4 lay offs and then went down to 4 days a week. ouch. I'm going to have to get out my "network" notebook.
I'd say yes, but more of a glimmer at the end of a long tunnel. I think what we are seeing is a bounce similar to the stock market bounce we've seen since early march.
While many stocks are oversold or undervalued, I think there are many firms that over-laidoff. At least in terms of looking forward.
I think we'll see a little burst in employment this summer and fall as projects and billings start coming back on line. Firms hiring back 25-40% of what they've laid off. from there it will be a long slow road up. I think it will take 10 years to get back to 2007 levels of employment for architects.
The same fundamental problems still exist within the profession. None of that has changed. But we have growing world population, growing need for density, and growing need for green solutions on our side.
Moving forward, I see former large firms and mid-size firms getting swallowed by larger AE and construction firms. I still see very small firms and mega firms as the future. The 20-100 size firm I think will become increasingly rare.
jabber, babs, outed and other reasonable posters--
Look at med's posts a year ago. Then, he was complaining about how his peers and even lower ranking co-workers were bein' mean to him, socially isolating him, and hurting his feelings. Now, he has simply shifted to a different target to blame for all of his problems. His postings reveal petty, delusional, whiny, immature, and paranoid tendencies. He doesn't listen to anyone's reason or advise, so I'm going to take Joe's advise and let him stew in his own misery and try to ignore him. He's like a buzzing gnat--annoying, distracting, and inviting a swat. If everyone will ignore him, it will at least eliminate his defensive (and offensive) responses.
hmmm cadcroupier, I think that the future of architecture in the US is going to be more and more of small firms (2-20 persons) range.
The larger firms with lots of overheads and less effective work product will get lesser in number. Clients will be looking for more quick-on-their-feet types of offices, and not be thinking too much about name-brand acronym architects.
And that is an awesome thing for most of us, and architecture in general.
but lesser in number by consolidation/mergers...not lesser in number in terms of market capitalization.
the midsize and larger firms will consolidate and offer a broader range of services in house, ie. A, E, LA, CM, planning. firms with strong specialities will be absorbed into already large established A,E,C companies to form specialty studios within the larger organization. Think URS/AECOM/CH2M swallowing the nbbj,perkins size firms along with smaller regional players or "name brand acronyms"
there will be the 2-20 firms but they will be limited to small scale private development. I do see some A firms consolidating into "one-stop" shops with other regional consultants, developers, contractors to form regional AECs. competing for projects in the 10 - 50M range.
mainly diversification and specialization though a consolidation of portfolios. Generalist firms then merging with other disciplines to form regional Megas.
If you mean "quick on their feet" in terms of project delivery, greater efficiency. I agree, but I think it results in less A driven (architect as prime consultant) projects.
In the short term I don't think it will be that "awesome". I see the industry being very volatile for the next few years, as the winners emerge and losers evaporate. In the long term I see it leading to greater stability, salary, and innovation within the profession.
I don’t buy this picture at all I think we will see some consolidation of the mega firms but I think the shuffle of people on a project and the perceived and or actual impersonal service will drive some clients away. Most architectural firms are local in nature not doing too many projects beyond a regional or metropolitan area. 5-10 person firms serving local small to mid size clients might be the first to rebound as all the existing but neglected building stock needs to be rehabilitated. In Chicago think of all the condominium developments built by crooks from Bosnia as illustrated on This American Life http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1289 .
Lots of small difficult repair rehab jobs out there that need a steady hand and personalized service for potentially traumatized clients who take comfort in knowing the firm doing the work won’t abandon them for some bigger project.
In small city rural markets you will see 20-100 person firms getting the bulk of the energy retrofit and school expansion projects since all politics is local and local design firms are perceived to be good enough to design an addition or upgrade the roof or toilet fixtures. New schools will still be ripe for mega firms but this will become less common as prefabrication eats into the school market. I also think starchatects will not only survive but thrive. Think of what starchatects did for Columbus Indiana. Mega Firms will, in my opinion corner the market on skyscrapers, hospitals, and university laboratories. What I do see as a growth opportunity for the mega firms is serving as architect of record for some Starchatects creation. The small design studio type firms win a competition and get a contract with the client, then subcontract out to SOM to finish all the CDs.
I also see a brain drain on the larger firms as people putting off retirement suddenly retire as their stock portfolios rebound, and the horror stories recounted here and in other informal circles, true or otherwise, will steer top talent away from those firms. Smaller forms will also feel this but it will probably be gradual as the sole proprietors and partners withdraw slowly from the profession.
Another trend to be looking out for is a switch up in academia as the market recovers young academic professionals might try professional practice and at the same time experienced architects who don’t have much of a retirement or pension start going after the academic positions work for 5-10 years and retire with a pension. Student’s benefit from their experience, and the younger design professionals switching out to real practice cut their teeth on designing with mixed results. Without this switch up academia would become more and more isolated from the profession.
i don't disagree with many of the scenarios that you mention. And I think we are saying the same thing: small local firms will still compete for the 10M or less projects. but 100 person firms won't survive on roof jobs, and energy upgrades alone.
re: stararchitects, brain drain, and academia. While some of this may happen, I don't see those as macro trends.
More likely, I see the SOMs of the world subcontracting design to the OMAs of the world rather than the other way around. I think what you are mentioning is more the way business is currently being done.
Nobody denies that the economy is cyclical. But the problem is the frequency of such cycles is way more in architecture compared to other professions and the recession periods are longer too. This makes Architecture one of the riskiest professional careers one could choose, at least in USA. So naturally as the business and employment is intermittent, one would expect the architectural fees and salaries to be higher compared to those of other professions, in order to make up for the frequent dry periods. Ironically I find architecture to be the least remunerative among all professions in USA. The architects get One-fourth that of a lawyer, one-fifth of what a surgeon gets et cetera. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I think your associations should advise the Architectural firms to increase the fees, across the board, to their clients to make up for dry spells and in turn ask them to pay higher emoluments to architects and related production staff.
By the by I am neither an Architect nor a resident of USA. However I am a realty developer and engineer and am a ctizen of India. In India Architects are highly respected and, of late, paid on par with IT professionals or better and mind you software engineers are the best paid professionals in India.
...I find architecture to be the least remunerative among all professions in USA.
Salary paid for education and licensure requirements, I would tend to agree. Of course many service jobs pay less than architecture, but require little to no education and no license.
I think your associations should advise the Architectural firms to increase the fees, across the board, to their clients to make up for dry spells and in turn ask them to pay higher emoluments to architects and related production staff.
It's tough to raise your prices in the middle of a downturn. While I agree architects work too cheap I'm a very big believer in the supply x demand of our business. Right now demand is low and supply is way too high so we're working cheap. In boom times firms turn down projects when busy and can afford to raise fees. I'd level out the valleys by reducing the ranks of freshly minted architecture grads. Regulate the supply at the source and let demand pay more or just wait when the next boom happens.
"Regulate the supply at the source and let demand pay more or just wait when the next boom happens."
Thats what theyve been trying to do with increased education standards; Id argue that has had the result of driving away a lot of people who in the past would have become architects. Possibly also devaluing our worth on the market because of the skew towards whatever it is we've becoming. Babbling idiots? Possibly.
I'd level out the valleys by reducing the ranks of freshly minted architecture grads. Regulate the supply at the source and let demand pay more or just wait when the next boom happens.
I'd really like to see some numbers on how many people who graduate from pre-professional architecture programs go on to master's programs, and what percentage of accepted applicants to top masters programs are from pre-professional arch programs (school by school, if possible).
I have a feeling this is where the numbers of grads can be reduced - have preference for people with pre-pro degrees and only admit a small number of people who don't. I think the number of accepted applicants should be skewed towards MArch I AP level applicants instead of people with little-to-no arch background.
people who go back to school after working for a while are the ones who will push for an education that more likely supports the profession - they'll know what they need to learn and advocate for it. right now there are too many inexperienced/clueless students in grad programs who have no idea how what they are learning applies to what they'll actually be doing - so they let schools get away with teaching the bare minimum to get NAAB accreditation.
Layoffs....layoffs......
Bloodclot's description of his studio is quite similar to my (former) office. I was running a project that was still in the early stages of development and I was responsible for the entire project, conceptualization, design, programming, etc. The design I had produced was received very well by the client and was praised highly by them. As the project progressed, the chief operating officer (that's right, not an architect), started to involve himself in the project by taking part of the client communication. That evolved into him telling me how to do certain things despite him having minimal architectural experience and minimal knowledge of the project. He had been working outside of the profession for 10-12 years before joining our office, which meant that, given his age, I had more architectural experience than he did, but he still had a higher position in the office than myself.
For a major meeting with city officials, the client requested that one representative from our office attend, and as the project architect, that would have been myself. The week before the meeting, I was informed that the COO would be going as well. OK, fine, I was still expecting to present the project, and I had not been told otherwise, so I prepared a powerpoint presentation and wrote out my speech, with the sections specifically written for each image.
The meeting didn't go quite as I had expected.
The guy secretly copied a large part of my presentation during a practice runthrough. At the beginning of the meeting, after he made introductions, he proceeded to present the part of the presentation which he copied VERBATIM. Despite throwing off my prepared speech, and being completely furious, I still went through the rest of it which went very well despite everything.
I waited a couple weeks to give myself time to cool off, and confronted him. He claimed that what he did was the right thing to do.
And despite that I had a track record of good work on that and past projects, I was fired a month later. I was told that it was purely economic even after I questioned if there were personality conflicts issues.
The COO is now running the project.
Aquapura, management should stop telling lies and just tell their nervous-as-hell employees that they're in dire straights and that more layoffs are to come. I know many firms that do this and from my standpoint I appreciate that straighforwardness much more. That way we might have an actual second or two to organize our lives and look for plan B. See the earlier part of this thread on how SOM employees were literally tossed into the streets within seconds of their layoffs.
Let's be realistic folks. I don't see this profession surviving next winter.
If you're a mid or senior-level person who suddenly has a previously uninvolved principal or other senior-level person closely monitoring your work, hovering over your desk, and suddenly attending all your meetings, beware. Often this is a clue that you're on the lay-off list.
In defense of firms "not telling" their employees that firm's finances are in jeopardy and there is little pending paying work ahead, note that this sort of situation can occur quickly, and firm may have been sincere in assessing situation as "ok" a month ago, and even sometimes, a week ago. Clients can literally disappear overnight, stopping a project, or stopping payments.
Business conditions can be unpredictable. Particularly for firms that often "carry a job" while waiting for client such as real estate developers to obtain construction financing before paying their significant portion of architectural services fees. Large firms have been stiffed by clients in past; I can think of two very large high-rise projects in Chicago were this occurred.
And this is no defense of spendthrift firm owners. There are not a lot of partner-architects here in Chicago living in mansions and driving expensive sports cars.
Chicago, I second that. Another reason I've witnessed why firms don't tell employees is that they don't want people walking out with sensitive data or damaging client relations if they know they will be terminated. I don't condone this attitude, but it certainly is a reality.
And while it may be a small amount compared to the big picture, it's always disappointing to see people consolidate their own position at the expense of others, using the downsizing as an opportunity to do so.
To add onto what Chicago said about "not telling" about financial details, etc. another thing is work hoarding. You tell everyone that layoffs are coming and everyone keeps a death grip on any bit of work they can to proove they are essential to the firm. Collaborative work becomes non-exsistent and the overall product suffers.
The profession will survive, all be it probably much smaller. Eventually most clients will see through the firms that kept on staff with poor abilities and those people will get theirs eventually. Will the laid off staff stick around long enough for a recovery? That's another question.
aquapura wrote: Will the laid off staff stick around long enough for a recovery?
The problem that young professionals have is their debt obligations, student loans, credit cards, car loans, and god forbid, a mortgage. Architectural education is expensive and I often see my peers living well beyond their means. I think the profession is misrepresented to the students who are recruited into architecture schools. College recruiters seriously misrepresent what the real potential earnings and risk are in the architectural profession. When the recovery comes around I hope those mentors out there focus on personal financing and getting out of debt as much as any other IDP objective.
Women tend to earn lower salaries through out their careers and tend to agitate less for promotions and salary increases. A cost-effective (or even bargain) employee is likely to ride out several waves of lay-offs, if otherwise unaffected by office politics.
NYTimes has done several articles noting that women in professions have been less affected by lay-offs than men.
my student loan payments monthly are more than my rent, credit cards, utilities, food, gas, insurance combined. being unemployed is tough. I've been unemployed for ten months now and my student loans have not budged, they've grown. and I don't foresee them going down having to settle for some $10 hr bullshit pay the rent type job.
trick is that I have to make like 40 grand a year to live and make payments that are more than just interest only payments, and I don't see myself being able to do that for at least a little while.
my brother wants to go to emory (out of state tuition) and I told him being potentially 225k (no family support-same as me) in debt for a 4 year bachelors in writing will stick with him till he dies. and for some reason its shrugged off like eh, oh well. so some young people are just ignorant to it, so thats also to blame.
I loved my education and what I got out of it, but i wish either I would have woken up and realized what I was burdening myself with, or had people tell me bluntly that I would have to pay so much for so long. neither of which happened.
ah, another sob story from joe. I'm just going to hate having to default on my loans and having my life taken over by debtors. which is entirely possible if things keep going like this for me. less than two months and counting for unemployment. the countdown begins. and to top it off, I cant get a job in other related fields (construction, development, graphic design). fast food places around here are now only taking people with experience. fuckin oregon. now I'm thinking of moving back to pittsburgh (cheap!!!) so I can save money. wow.
just had to vent. sorry. I know something will come along for me soon, its just aggravating at times.
Remember to never work at an architecture office with a CEO, or a COO or a DICK.
Oh wait, then all corporate offices would be out of the picture....
I've never heard of a college recruiter telling a potential student that Architecture is a high paying profession. And everytime I got a firm tour while in high school or as an undergrad I was always told that this isn't a high paying career. The problem is the public perception that Architects are highly paid. Colleges don't need to misrepresent because the students already have that ingrained in their minds.
Where colleges do misrepresent the profession is in how they train everyone to be "designers" and graduate them into a world were over half their time will be spent doing production work. Every single new hire I've ever worked with has complained that they aren't designing all day.
One thing I'd like to be more widely know is the cyclical nature of Architecture. As an undergrad student in my early 20's I had no idea of the bang/bust nature of this profession. Maybe if we are all trained to expect a downturn right around the corner we'd learn to live more within our means. That could've gone a long way to helping us in the current situation.
There is one really big problem with the compensation now days. It is down, adjusted, 30% from the 80s. This means that architects now are in different neighborhoods than the architecture buying public. They run in different socioeconomic circles than the property managers. This split from the peer group is going to have very consequences long term for the profession. My theory.
aquapura- couldn't agree more when you said "One thing I'd like to be more widely know is the cyclical nature of Architecture. As an undergrad student in my early 20's I had no idea of the bang/bust nature of this profession."
Professors, IDP mentors, principals, and others know exactly how this works and yet no one mentioned this UNTIL after the first round of layoffs at my firm. I was in school during 9/11, and my professors had to have been around during the 90's, and yet this was never discussed in any pro-practice or other architecture-business related class as to what was happening. WHY NOT?! It IS a cycle- and every 8-10 years this happens.
I think another issue is basic personal finance. We get wrapped up in making models, animations, presentations, etc... we forget basic calculations, a budget, perusing money websites every once in awhile to see what's going on. My side hobby is finance. I would never want it as a real job- but thank God I figured out a few things before I was out cold on the street. Yet I see many of my colleagues in this same predicament.
The other issue - that has been widely covered in the media lately- is the overwhelming pressure put on students in ANY major to take out loans to cover their tuition and expenses. This is done by administration + staff all the time and gets exceedingly worse right before registration time. The students are told they can't register for classes if they don't pay, and are pressured to sign loan documents there on the spot and told "you can pay for it after you graduate". Not having been in that situation before many students sign without thinking- because the prospect of not graduating is worse than whatever that loan payment might be in the future. That is predatory lending at it's finest in every academic institution in this country.
Joe;
So whats wrong with Pittsburgh, Joe? In this economy it is pretty sweet to be able to buy a $50,000 house.
I'm glad these stories are starting to come out.
Up until now it's been all about those poor unfortunate management-level people who have had to make these painful decision to let this entire generation of architects go.
And as my posts and responses to them indicate I have absolutely no right whatsoever being frustrated by the way any of this is being handled.
damn, med - how many times do you feel you need to make EXACTLY the same point before you realize nobody much cares what you have to say on the subject?
we got bored with your whining months ago.
for every one of these so called "abuse" stories you cling to, I can give you five about intern level staff abusing their employer's good graces.
and, before you pounce, no - such stories do not give employers any excuse to heap abuse in return.
archie - nothing is wrong per say, just that I wanted to try and see other areas. Im not sure that I want to buy a house and settle just yet. but it would probably be a great investment to buy now. thats for sure.
babs, I don't ever recall saying what I said in my last post. I think you are just too used to being pissed off and preachy towards me.
Thanks for proving my point. Apparently we have absolutely no right whatsoever in being frustrated by all these job losses in the profession.
med.
04/24/09 12:45
babs, I don't ever recall saying what I said in my last post.
what you said in your prior post:
med.
04/24/09 9:01
Up until now it's been all about those poor unfortunate management-level people who have had to make these painful decision to let this entire generation of architects go.
just for the record, a sampling of some of your recent posts, just from this particular thread:
med.
04/23/09 10:38
I've heard many gut wrenching stories similar to this -- of course with many of the posters defending those kinds of actions. I know that at one firm here, the management people made a promise to everyone that their jobs were safe for at least another year but ended up laying 20% of them off and giving the rest 20% pay cuts only a month later. So we all know what a steaming crock of shit it is when people say our jobs are "safe."
med.
04/23/09 12:40
… management should stop telling lies and just tell their nervous-as-hell employees that they're in dire straits and that more layoffs are to come.
med.
04/13/09 13:42
Generally management of firms keep all their financial matters tightly sealed so we have no idea what happens or really what to do once the axe falls. Once you guys herd us into that room and tell us your "great news", have us escorted off the premises immediately like criminals and have an education-less HR person (who apparently has leagues better job security than we do) assure that all of our belongings will be mailed to us, what are we supposed to think???
med.
04/03/09 12:35
okay since you are in the position of tossing people out into the streets, I'm very curious about something. Why do you lay people off in masses? Isn't it already a humiliating enough experience to lose your job and to add insult to injury, you have to herd everyone together to face their slaughter.
med.
04/02/09 10:02
Yes, they were given bonuses and they were apparently very busy but they signed shady contracts with shady clients, didn't get paid, didn't have accumulate nearly enough fee, cut everyone's pay and then laid of their most skilled staff. They had a massive lay off towards the end of last year and the principals made a promise to everyone that the worse was over and that everyone's job was "safe." So NO ONE saw it coming.
med.
02/27/09 6:54
But you have to understand that when I see people on here (of greater influence at their offices) acting preachy to people who just went through a layoff, it really gets under my skin. The last thing they want to hear are more excuses and justification in light of the fact that they have to make a sudden unexpected life-changing revolution -- I mean seriously folks!
med.
02/26/09 14:41
Here we go again -- more senior-level people making more excuses for their own incompetence and their own failure in keeping their firms afloat. That's right -- it's ALL the fault of the victims here!
med.
02/10/09 9:20
I know of an architecture firm that axed most of their junior level people and the remaining ones got 30% paycuts while the principals, PMs and senior associates got 5% paycuts. And apparently this seems to be a common occurrence when I brought it up to some friends of mine. I'm sure some of you "brilliant" senior level people will have some ridiculous explanation for that one! I don't mean to be offensive to some of you but the reason I've been using this abrasive tone is because we have heard you guys do all of the talking while the rest of us have been completely silenced.
med.
02/09/09 12:26
We're being made to suffer for someone else's fuck up. Whether it's from the piss-poor management of the firm, whether it's from the government, or from the actions of selfish wall street criminals -- it's not our fault.
med.
02/06/09 13:58
We've already heard all of this millions and millions of times and it gets so repetitive, so asinine, and sooooooo tired -- It's like people never really got over the 1950s business model and continue rehashing the same nightmare again and again. You will tell us about how "difficult" it is for you to make these decisions and then herd about 50 people into a room and categorically toss them onto the streets like rubbish while shedding a few crocodile tears. You don't think we've experienced this before?
In the end of the day you're still sitting pretty high atop your perch at XYZ Design with the profits you received in the boom times of 2004-2007. In the meantime, we're all out on the streets begging, heaping, and groveling for one of your little "informational interviews." And those of us who were fortunate to last through your third round of layoffs will sacrifice just about everything we have left (including our dignity and pride) to do as much work as possible and do whatever we can to keep our already unsatisfactory pay and pray every day that you don't either reduce our salary or flat out toss us onto the street like a the vermin we are. We're the ones losing sleep and having nightmares about the specific nature of how you plan on delivering the "great news" to us. We already understand all of this. Do you really think we need to be hearing these fucking lame excuses here too?
med.
02/06/09 12:38
The only thing a guy like me gives a rats ass about is my employment and being able to hang onto my employment. We don't really give a flying fuck about of your excuses (whether they're justified or not) as to why you need to let people go. We've heard them all before and it's the same tire, worn-out, 1950s mentality rubbish that has been tried over and over and over.
med.
02/03/09 9:12
We're all victims of someone else's mistake. We've done nothing wrong here.
med.
01/10/09 7:21
I was talking with a friend of mine yesterday and he was telling me how sick he was of this. We bust our asses, stay until midnight to meet nearly impossible deadlines, we get paid shit in the first place ... And what's the payback? ZERO job security.
owned
oh come on. lets not completely kill this thread. if you dont like what he says just skip it, roll your eyes, hit your desk, whatever. its really not a big deal. its a fucking discussion board. get over it.
joe - sounds like a good idea - happy to comply.
for when i read threads like this: http://tinyurl.com/ctdmne
Just to screw things up with a positive note, our firm is probably about a month away from taking some unemployed folks off the dole. I don't know if LA is starting to turn around, but my friends at other non-corporate firms seem to be looking to do the same.
Babs, that's some serious obsession you have there. Very scary quite frankly. Didn't really prove a point -- you just quoted all of the things I said on the board. Obviously it's true, as I've said many times on how frustrated we can be by upper management decisions or how upper management in some cases has not really helped the profession during this economic downturn -- Not all and certainly only a minority.
Anyway, It's a diuscussion and it's a message board for people to discuss these kinds of things so naturally you're going to hear lots od opinions that obviously won't really jive with what you say. If you don't like what I say and cannot handle it either ignore or continue preaching -- all I'll do is respond.
Yet, ss you've seen, I've recieved countless threats on this because of my opinions from several people. Please enthrall me about the "professionalism" behind that.
med - IMO, you are one self-delusional son of a gun! I don't think I've ever encountered anyone so self-absorbed by the absolute correctness of your own views and so dismissive of the views of those who don't see it your way.
to me, the value of any discussion board is the opportunity to learn from others and broaden one's own perspective - not just project one's own frustrations. I've been reading your posts for a long time through your multiple incarnations. I've seen little, if any, growth or maturity. that's so sad.
I'm not management of any sort. I have felt like med does now in the past. Fortunately, I've grown up and gotten over it. I learned that bitching at the Masters of the Universe didn't do anyone any good especially ME! I'm sick of this pissing contest. And, that is all that it is. It sucks out there right now. But, med, you have a damn job and you haven't been laid off. You have nothing to complain about! You need to be keeping your nose to the grindstone and be thankful that your employed. I've been laid off the last two May's. Right now I still want to be employed on May 31st. The people above me are working their tails off to get us new work. I'm cleaning up details on a project that is getting ready to pour concrete. My boss realizes that he has 13 people depending on him. Your friends that have lost jobs have been dealt a tough hand. It's there problem not yours. You aren't helping them out by telling their stories on Archinect. One of my old boss's told someone that I know that is unemployed basically to get out of the field of Architecture. That's how bad things are out there. You have brought up the same crap over and over. Guess what? There will be more layoffs at the end of the month and the end of the quarter. Unfortunately, we work in a boom/bust profession and right now it's bust. Go play the lotto...
some useful grist for the mill: Architecture Firm Billings Show Signs of Spring Thaw
comb, I was about to post that article!
If we can avoid the swine flu, I think things are slowly looking up.
Swine flu happens on farms all of the time so I don't know why this is such big news...
The billings is good news!
Titalwave, thanks for being the most levelheaded poster of any of us. I've found your posts to be the most straightforward and educational.
Comb, thanks for this article. Hopefully it's a sign that there is light at the end of the tunnel....?
Jabber, your personal insults and name-calling don't really mean anything to me.
med - and yet you exercise no self-restraint whatsoever when insulting others who don't see the world through your eyes. you're a small minded buffoon.
jabber, sorry you feel that way about someone you don't know.
Are you being any better with these churlish personal insults and name calling?
lb - slowly is the key word. billings didn't have much room to continue falling and, yes, the stimulus is working a little bit for us (just a bit).
inquiries is to be expected - i wouldn't read too much into that number. we've gotten lots of calls from groups who know the construction market is flat and are 'interested' in building, if only from a timing standpoint. this doesn't take into account that most of them won't be able to secure funding to actually do anything. but it counts as an inquiry.
what i'm surprised a certain person on this thread failed to note in the aia survey is that principals are taking salary reductions the hardest. of course, it doesn't change the fact that we (those evil, 50's mindset owners) are all swine, spreading our nasty flu around, trying to infect everyone we work with....
we're not at the bottom yet people. give it another 4-5 months and let's see if we bottom out on unemployment numbers, what the bank stress tests say, and, most importantly, if the ted spread drops down to something below the high 90's. once that hits the teens, lending will be back to normal...
how is the scene in Pittsburgh looking right now? anyone?
med: "sorry you feel that way about someone you don't know"
how many firms, and firm owners, have you abused here based on nothing more than heresay from your buds in the industry or rumours that you've picked up on the street.
f**king hypocrite.
easy now! so something on topic -
how is the scene in Pittsburgh looking right now? anyone?
have layoff stopped? anyone hiring? any new big jobs starting up? anything?
Jabber say whatever makes you feel satisfied. If all you have is personal insults and name calling perhaps you should just stick to making posts about "not getting laid." Perhaps that post contains all that high powered "growth and maturity" you were preaching to me about.
Joe,
Things got hairy in Pitt during the fall and winter when Perkins Eastman, Burt Hill, WTW, etc began to really contract. However, some friends of mine work in a few small-to-mid-size firms there and they seem to be hanging in there and have seen things starting to pick up lately. Other firms have seen a rapid rise in inquiries at least...
Light at the end of the tunnel...?
eh, burt hill. not looking forward to that but. it would be a job which is better than none!
and things were contracting before that! I got laid off at the beginning of summer, in a medium sized retail firm that in the end ended up doing like 4 lay offs and then went down to 4 days a week. ouch. I'm going to have to get out my "network" notebook.
"Light at the end of the tunnel...?"
I'd say yes, but more of a glimmer at the end of a long tunnel. I think what we are seeing is a bounce similar to the stock market bounce we've seen since early march.
While many stocks are oversold or undervalued, I think there are many firms that over-laidoff. At least in terms of looking forward.
I think we'll see a little burst in employment this summer and fall as projects and billings start coming back on line. Firms hiring back 25-40% of what they've laid off. from there it will be a long slow road up. I think it will take 10 years to get back to 2007 levels of employment for architects.
The same fundamental problems still exist within the profession. None of that has changed. But we have growing world population, growing need for density, and growing need for green solutions on our side.
Moving forward, I see former large firms and mid-size firms getting swallowed by larger AE and construction firms. I still see very small firms and mega firms as the future. The 20-100 size firm I think will become increasingly rare.
jabber, babs, outed and other reasonable posters--
Look at med's posts a year ago. Then, he was complaining about how his peers and even lower ranking co-workers were bein' mean to him, socially isolating him, and hurting his feelings. Now, he has simply shifted to a different target to blame for all of his problems. His postings reveal petty, delusional, whiny, immature, and paranoid tendencies. He doesn't listen to anyone's reason or advise, so I'm going to take Joe's advise and let him stew in his own misery and try to ignore him. He's like a buzzing gnat--annoying, distracting, and inviting a swat. If everyone will ignore him, it will at least eliminate his defensive (and offensive) responses.
Same thoughts here:
http://www.planetizen.com/node/37646
hmmm cadcroupier, I think that the future of architecture in the US is going to be more and more of small firms (2-20 persons) range.
The larger firms with lots of overheads and less effective work product will get lesser in number. Clients will be looking for more quick-on-their-feet types of offices, and not be thinking too much about name-brand acronym architects.
And that is an awesome thing for most of us, and architecture in general.
SOD...i think we are saying the same thing.
but lesser in number by consolidation/mergers...not lesser in number in terms of market capitalization.
the midsize and larger firms will consolidate and offer a broader range of services in house, ie. A, E, LA, CM, planning. firms with strong specialities will be absorbed into already large established A,E,C companies to form specialty studios within the larger organization. Think URS/AECOM/CH2M swallowing the nbbj,perkins size firms along with smaller regional players or "name brand acronyms"
there will be the 2-20 firms but they will be limited to small scale private development. I do see some A firms consolidating into "one-stop" shops with other regional consultants, developers, contractors to form regional AECs. competing for projects in the 10 - 50M range.
mainly diversification and specialization though a consolidation of portfolios. Generalist firms then merging with other disciplines to form regional Megas.
If you mean "quick on their feet" in terms of project delivery, greater efficiency. I agree, but I think it results in less A driven (architect as prime consultant) projects.
In the short term I don't think it will be that "awesome". I see the industry being very volatile for the next few years, as the winners emerge and losers evaporate. In the long term I see it leading to greater stability, salary, and innovation within the profession.
I don’t buy this picture at all I think we will see some consolidation of the mega firms but I think the shuffle of people on a project and the perceived and or actual impersonal service will drive some clients away. Most architectural firms are local in nature not doing too many projects beyond a regional or metropolitan area. 5-10 person firms serving local small to mid size clients might be the first to rebound as all the existing but neglected building stock needs to be rehabilitated. In Chicago think of all the condominium developments built by crooks from Bosnia as illustrated on This American Life http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1289 .
Lots of small difficult repair rehab jobs out there that need a steady hand and personalized service for potentially traumatized clients who take comfort in knowing the firm doing the work won’t abandon them for some bigger project.
In small city rural markets you will see 20-100 person firms getting the bulk of the energy retrofit and school expansion projects since all politics is local and local design firms are perceived to be good enough to design an addition or upgrade the roof or toilet fixtures. New schools will still be ripe for mega firms but this will become less common as prefabrication eats into the school market. I also think starchatects will not only survive but thrive. Think of what starchatects did for Columbus Indiana. Mega Firms will, in my opinion corner the market on skyscrapers, hospitals, and university laboratories. What I do see as a growth opportunity for the mega firms is serving as architect of record for some Starchatects creation. The small design studio type firms win a competition and get a contract with the client, then subcontract out to SOM to finish all the CDs.
I also see a brain drain on the larger firms as people putting off retirement suddenly retire as their stock portfolios rebound, and the horror stories recounted here and in other informal circles, true or otherwise, will steer top talent away from those firms. Smaller forms will also feel this but it will probably be gradual as the sole proprietors and partners withdraw slowly from the profession.
Another trend to be looking out for is a switch up in academia as the market recovers young academic professionals might try professional practice and at the same time experienced architects who don’t have much of a retirement or pension start going after the academic positions work for 5-10 years and retire with a pension. Student’s benefit from their experience, and the younger design professionals switching out to real practice cut their teeth on designing with mixed results. Without this switch up academia would become more and more isolated from the profession.
i don't disagree with many of the scenarios that you mention. And I think we are saying the same thing: small local firms will still compete for the 10M or less projects. but 100 person firms won't survive on roof jobs, and energy upgrades alone.
re: stararchitects, brain drain, and academia. While some of this may happen, I don't see those as macro trends.
More likely, I see the SOMs of the world subcontracting design to the OMAs of the world rather than the other way around. I think what you are mentioning is more the way business is currently being done.
but its anyones guess i suppose.
Nobody denies that the economy is cyclical. But the problem is the frequency of such cycles is way more in architecture compared to other professions and the recession periods are longer too. This makes Architecture one of the riskiest professional careers one could choose, at least in USA. So naturally as the business and employment is intermittent, one would expect the architectural fees and salaries to be higher compared to those of other professions, in order to make up for the frequent dry periods. Ironically I find architecture to be the least remunerative among all professions in USA. The architects get One-fourth that of a lawyer, one-fifth of what a surgeon gets et cetera. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I think your associations should advise the Architectural firms to increase the fees, across the board, to their clients to make up for dry spells and in turn ask them to pay higher emoluments to architects and related production staff.
By the by I am neither an Architect nor a resident of USA. However I am a realty developer and engineer and am a ctizen of India. In India Architects are highly respected and, of late, paid on par with IT professionals or better and mind you software engineers are the best paid professionals in India.
Salary paid for education and licensure requirements, I would tend to agree. Of course many service jobs pay less than architecture, but require little to no education and no license.
I think your associations should advise the Architectural firms to increase the fees, across the board, to their clients to make up for dry spells and in turn ask them to pay higher emoluments to architects and related production staff.
It's tough to raise your prices in the middle of a downturn. While I agree architects work too cheap I'm a very big believer in the supply x demand of our business. Right now demand is low and supply is way too high so we're working cheap. In boom times firms turn down projects when busy and can afford to raise fees. I'd level out the valleys by reducing the ranks of freshly minted architecture grads. Regulate the supply at the source and let demand pay more or just wait when the next boom happens.
"Regulate the supply at the source and let demand pay more or just wait when the next boom happens."
Thats what theyve been trying to do with increased education standards; Id argue that has had the result of driving away a lot of people who in the past would have become architects. Possibly also devaluing our worth on the market because of the skew towards whatever it is we've becoming. Babbling idiots? Possibly.
I'd really like to see some numbers on how many people who graduate from pre-professional architecture programs go on to master's programs, and what percentage of accepted applicants to top masters programs are from pre-professional arch programs (school by school, if possible).
I have a feeling this is where the numbers of grads can be reduced - have preference for people with pre-pro degrees and only admit a small number of people who don't. I think the number of accepted applicants should be skewed towards MArch I AP level applicants instead of people with little-to-no arch background.
people who go back to school after working for a while are the ones who will push for an education that more likely supports the profession - they'll know what they need to learn and advocate for it. right now there are too many inexperienced/clueless students in grad programs who have no idea how what they are learning applies to what they'll actually be doing - so they let schools get away with teaching the bare minimum to get NAAB accreditation.
I loves the NAAB excel files
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