orientations no problem at all... but if u act like a queer at construction site, workers will think that ur a joke... very political incorrect, but that's what it is in asia.
Interesting, aspect. I'm sorry to hear that it's like that.
I'll repeat Liberty Bell's questions from the previous page:
...how closeted are you/were you at work/school? Does architecture (like many other creative practices) attract a higher proportion of us than other fields? Do you feel like your queerness has any influence/affect on your work?
it shouldnt matter..... if you are, then you are..... everyone gets heat for anything............
i got heat for dressing like a thug, and being a breakdancer
then we would pick on our friends that were from the suburbs...then they would pick on the friends that were from the country....then they would pick on the friends that were from ohio...then they would pick on the friends from canada.....then they would pick on the friends that were freaks and goth.....then they would pick on the "ravers"....then the ravers would pick on rockabillies.............etc.etc.....
there will always be some sort of tension in certain "fields" and you just deal with it........ who cares........
make some hottness..... and be the hottness....... thats whats architecture is all about..........
make some hottness..... and be the hottness....... thats whats architecture is all about..........
B that's the best thing you've said so far. I'm sorry that anyone has felt threatened by this thread and would consider not being a part of archinect anymore.
Play nice
I am saddened that there are so many closeted people out there, worse when they are architects/designers <- only because that is the international community I associate with (yes I am referring to the fact that I think of myself first as an architect, before creed, culture, race, sexuality, colour, etc). Perhaps I am alone in that regard - and as such again be the minority.
But isn't what this argument is all about? How do you cope with being a minority, how do you deal with it in the profession? Are you singled out? Unable to use your voice - sorry but as a West Indian architect I'm rarely taken seriously in professional settings and now I'm getting touchy.
This angst is for those that suffer just because they aren't [insert normal]
closested people: all the 'heterosexuals' who are too ignorant to realize humans true natures is that of polygamous bisexuality like our closest relative the Bonobo.
I can't answer from direct experience any of the original questions this thread was about, but off the top of my head the closest to me of the gay or lesbian people I know one is a pianist, another a graphic designer. Both very creative fields. Two are massage therapists (and you could argue that therapeutic fields are creative too, at the very least empathetic) and one is a physicist. Maybe the physicist is the odd one out... but I won't touch that one for thoughts of that Harvard dean who misspoke about the abilities of women.
I just did it myself, but its not really accurate to generalize about homosexual people of both genders together. The lesbian women I know have a very different view of looking at the world than the gay men I know. Honestly I have felt like the minority a few times around a large group of homosexual people and have found that there are a few choice names for heterosexuals among them too.
I know that the thread hasn't seemed very inviting to people it was intentioned for. I hope more of them will speak up and that archinect will continue to be a place where architecture is the unifying element, whatever else divides us.
Wow... I am a gay architect in nyc, and never expected these kinds of comments from the people on this board. Especially cryzko, your comments are beyond out of line and not even the slightest bit funny. I suggest you stay out of this thread, as you obviously can not add any meaningful discussion to it.
There is a "making fun of homos is okay cause were cool with homos and have a gay friend" attitude. Maybe some gay people you guys know make fun of straight people, IDK. But to me, it shows some kind of deeper misunderstandings / ignorance.
As for the questions originally asked by enemyhands..
I was/am not closeted at school or work. I don't go around proclaiming to the fact that I am gay, but if someone asks I have no problem telling them. As to whether the field attracts more of us, I am not so sure. I have many gay friends who do work in non-creative fields (although i find that hard to define, I think creativity is a required aspect of all fields). Computer, IT, business, medical, law... I think stereotypically you could say that gay people are attracted to creative fields (this stereotype worsened by such shows as Queer Eye for the Straight Guy), but I think in the end, sexual orientation is only one factor in someone's personality, likes, desires, etc.
Odd -- I don't find anything "out of line" in cryzko's post -- but different folks have different sensitivities. I guess it's not for me to tell someone he or she hasn't been insulted. . .
Yeah, maybe. I had a long dispute with a fellow on another design site who wanted to claim that gays are the better artists, designers, craftsmen, whatever. How boring, and irrelevant, and. . .wrong. Like some kind of narrow-minded "our side is better than your side" thing.
I just finished sharing shop-space with a real sicko who apparently believed the same shit. The only other gay cabinetmaker I've run into, in 40 years. . .kind of sad.
* Ferndale’s Craig Covery is the state’s first openly gay mayor
* The city plays host to the Motor City Pride festival
* Ferndale is home to Affirmations, a non-profit organization that helps “lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals find and develop community where we value and respect ourselves and others.”
i could care less what way you go..... it's your life..... just like everyone else.....
do i get all pissed off when the gay guy at the coffee house hits on me....no...i openly joke about it.....
did i get pissed when the 2 gay guys bought me a sweet 16 balloon on my 32 birthday and gave it to me at the coffee house and then sang happy birthday.....no..... it was actually cool since i dont celebrate my birthday....so.....
and i'm sure gay/lesbian folks have their fare share of "straight" jokes...... who cares..... ..... you think comedians care when they say stuff on stage ......... nope....... cause it's all in a context
if thats who you are then so be it...........
you think i get pissed when people tell me "what are you doing with you life?".."your not a designer"...."wtf do you know"... no...... cause i could care less.............
you do you............
you can get on my case if you want.......... i'm a "white" male..... and have dated outside of my race........ who cares..... but some people think that thats wrong............. and it's the closed minded people that get all pissed
it's also the closed minded people that tend to stir shit up and have to make excuses for there stupidity..............
realize that everyone goes through some sort of bullshit in life..... theres alot more people that tend to be at a lower level than yourself so they try to pull you down........... hence...let go of those people and move on.......... been there and done that...........
i still think that people are afraid to show whom/what they really are so they get all this built up negativity inside..... and at any chance to realease it, they do......... speak your mind and do yourself......
if you dont like the way i walk....keep in mind that we are walking in the same direction but on different roads.........
if you need guidance then ask...... if you need assurance then find a close friend..........
if you dont like the way my pants are baggy..... so be it...... i could care less........... because it's me............
My husband and I are both gay American men who married in Canada in 2003 - the first country to allow American citizens to marry there without emigrating.
We've been together in love for 32 years - our first home together for ten years was Manhattan, NYC - now we live and work in Pennsylvania.
I'm the architect; I've worked in the profession around the world - Wales, London, Western Australia, and USA.
Hubby and I are both 61 next birthday. We hope to retire to our Pennsylvania home in a few years (it's all about keeping the health insurance where we each work until 65 when nationalized health care kicks in for the first time for Americans - Medicare).
We work 100 miles apart, and our home is 100 miles away from our jobs. We are members of our church - MCCNY, in Manhattan, where we attend often. UFMCC is actively working to achieve equality in civil marriage so that we could have the same 1,400 federal protections afforded by marriage that's automatically granted to those created heterosexual (or those pretending to be).
Archiqueer here - find it bears no relationship to ACTUAL design abilities, but certainly bears weight upon world view. Out and out and super out, but context is key to survival and bribing the gods of banal astrology to forecast things in your favor.
Welcome, Timothy. I get all weepy inside* when I hear about anyone who has been happily together for over 30 years, but even moreso when it's a same-gender couple who I am sure has had a much more difficult road facing how ignorant people can be, and especially given that at 61 the world was a vastly less accepting place when you were in your 20s.
Rereading this thread reminds me how people new to archinect might find it all a bit nasty, but honestly the soul of the site is in its openness, general good humor, and acknowledgement of the shared experience of the ridiculous field of architecture. Let's promote that some more in '09, OK, all?
*Note I am a total sap, I also get weepy when I hear of people becoming American citizens, babies being born, and pretty much any story about a dog.
I second the sap comment, LB. Hearing about same-gender couples and/or biracial couples whom have overcome less-forgiving generations, makes me tear up. I want to hug them and tell them how thankful I am for standing their ground and proving that love will never succumb for social norms. (I hope that doesn't sound trite).
And about the tearing up thing, I always, always tear up while watching a movie on a plane. Regardless of the movie (hell, it could the ever-obnoxious films of Adam Sandler), I can guarantee I'd shed a tear but ONLY IF I WAS ON A PLANE. It's weird. And totally lame.
Ah, the words "Liberty Bell" makes me weepy, since I permanently returned to my native USA (from Perth, W. Australia) for the Bicentennial in 1976! No way would that Bicentennial outfit fit these days!
Maybe in 2009 I'll have more reasons to be able to feel untraumatized to actually enjoy saying the word "President" again?
Though to exercise important self-caring, my hubby and I are definitely gonna skip the Inauguration Invocation, given the level of unChristlike heterosexual-supremacy that's guaranteed to be flaunted.
My husband Earl is an ordained minister in the UCC - rather ironic since our new Prez is also UCC. So during the Invocation we'll simply shake the supremacists' dust from our feet, knowing we're Loved perfectly fine.
this should be clearer: it is totally irrelevant to favour being out over being closeted; this is a personal choice. what should be countered, ideally, is every societal, rather than personal, reason that forces someone to be closeted. the roots and not the tendrils
Nocti-baby,
It is not irrelevant to the developing personality of the individual and its ability to be a part of the world within which it develops. It is a personal choice, but speaking from experience, it is usually one made when awareness of self is most immature, vulnerable and impressionable - when the unknowns of the world are so hypnotic that the effects upon consciousness can be devastating to the point of hopelessness.
Trying to change society is tricky, just like trying to change an individual. And I am sick of people trying to change other people, as was the societal context I emerged in and did not have the resources to contend.
I've found more value in being a healthy mirror and analogue for other closeted and so deeply fearful homos than I have ever in being an 'activist' or 'rights lobbyist' - because ultimate, that discussion is about political power and that game is not so important to me.
In any case, lets go get gay married somewhere intolerant - like Iran.
Interesting thoughts. I too have little interest in the politicizing of social trends and individual pain and pride. But I can say that it is hurtful -- and unnecessary -- to remain closeted.
In my experience the way that works is to let people know you first, then to come out. It is the best antidote to bias and bigotry that I have seen in my own life. . .
In my experience the way that works is to let people know you first, then to come out. It is the best antidote to bias and bigotry that I have seen in my own life. . .
perhaps our concerns differ. in my case, what is more significant for me is the reasons why anyone would want to remain closeted. this is a socio-political matter irrespective of one's own personal choice. i care more about a juridical and state-sponsered security than challenging people's prejudices (which i can overcome in courts of law, need that be). however, it also flows the other way. law is not an unprejudiced area of spotless absolutes; granted that certain people would need to be challenged for the law to provide said security.
as for the psychological well-being of the person in or out of the closet. well, that depends on the person. i know men who have sex with other men and who barely register the word "gay" or its social and political entails. they keep their sex with "chicos" to themselves and are quite healthy persons. to some extent, the so-called western world's "global" gay culture contains within it the reverse catholic-guilt incurring confession. to "be healthy" ( a freudian psychological equivalent to being free of sin) one must speak one's nature. this gay culture provides, on its own, the concerend homosexual with an impetus to confess. my home country, lebanon, is an interesing case where both an explicit westernized gay culture and the local sense of traditional discretion wage their little battles.
there is a certain amount of frisson and subversive delight to be derived from remaining in the closet: an outsider mole in straight society. but on the whole I think it is not a healthy situation, even if the person is naturally reticent and private.
Nocti:
"they keep their sex with "chicos" to themselves and are quite healthy persons."
There are many levels of 'health' - and the pattern above ultimately leads to confrontation which reveals the inherent weakness of that pattern. This pattern is based on spiritual ill-health by living a life in denial, or dismissive repression. Second is that this often accompanies a hetero-oriented married life where in the pattern of denial and 'secretive' sex also leads to very risky sexual practices and impulses that risk the health of the man's wife and also children who might possibly be born.
Confession is an interesting phenomena with the proper psychological 'loading' - I've often thought that a lot of the issues with the American persona would be begin to soften if we had a culture receptive to secular confession. I fear that that requires as 'spiritual' perspective most people on this planet have absolutely no interest in considering, because it requires looking at your life as whole and taking responsibility for all of that. But religious confession is of a slightly different tone than confession of self to self and then self to society.
Farmer: I enjoy that without being in the closet. Usually, homo's still in the closet are FAR less enjoyable to be around than you are suggesting. The closet is a prison of fear and deep neuroses that can take decades to unravel, if at all. Its not that enjoyable.
Yes, there is a certain pleasure in having (and having to keep) a personal secret. This is perhaps lost when one comes out. I have never (well, almost never) flaunted my "lifestyle" (ugh -- a term used to make bigots comfortable ?) nor joined whole-heartedly the "community" -- nor have I been accused of being a "self-hating" homosexual.
Any queers out there?
Do you feel like your queerness has any influence/affect on your work?
yes, if u need to go to construction site.
I've seen people of all orientations run CA, so what do you mean by that, aspect?
orientations no problem at all... but if u act like a queer at construction site, workers will think that ur a joke... very political incorrect, but that's what it is in asia.
Interesting, aspect. I'm sorry to hear that it's like that.
I'll repeat Liberty Bell's questions from the previous page:
...how closeted are you/were you at work/school? Does architecture (like many other creative practices) attract a higher proportion of us than other fields? Do you feel like your queerness has any influence/affect on your work?
it shouldnt matter..... if you are, then you are..... everyone gets heat for anything............
i got heat for dressing like a thug, and being a breakdancer
then we would pick on our friends that were from the suburbs...then they would pick on the friends that were from the country....then they would pick on the friends that were from ohio...then they would pick on the friends from canada.....then they would pick on the friends that were freaks and goth.....then they would pick on the "ravers"....then the ravers would pick on rockabillies.............etc.etc.....
there will always be some sort of tension in certain "fields" and you just deal with it........ who cares........
make some hottness..... and be the hottness....... thats whats architecture is all about..........
it is the anniversery of StOnEwAll
B that's the best thing you've said so far. I'm sorry that anyone has felt threatened by this thread and would consider not being a part of archinect anymore.
Play nice
I am saddened that there are so many closeted people out there, worse when they are architects/designers <- only because that is the international community I associate with (yes I am referring to the fact that I think of myself first as an architect, before creed, culture, race, sexuality, colour, etc). Perhaps I am alone in that regard - and as such again be the minority.
But isn't what this argument is all about? How do you cope with being a minority, how do you deal with it in the profession? Are you singled out? Unable to use your voice - sorry but as a West Indian architect I'm rarely taken seriously in professional settings and now I'm getting touchy.
This angst is for those that suffer just because they aren't [insert normal]
sorry to sound like a bleeding heart but...sigh
Hey, if you can't tell it like it is, here, where can you ?
closested people: all the 'heterosexuals' who are too ignorant to realize humans true natures is that of polygamous bisexuality like our closest relative the Bonobo.
I can't answer from direct experience any of the original questions this thread was about, but off the top of my head the closest to me of the gay or lesbian people I know one is a pianist, another a graphic designer. Both very creative fields. Two are massage therapists (and you could argue that therapeutic fields are creative too, at the very least empathetic) and one is a physicist. Maybe the physicist is the odd one out... but I won't touch that one for thoughts of that Harvard dean who misspoke about the abilities of women.
I just did it myself, but its not really accurate to generalize about homosexual people of both genders together. The lesbian women I know have a very different view of looking at the world than the gay men I know. Honestly I have felt like the minority a few times around a large group of homosexual people and have found that there are a few choice names for heterosexuals among them too.
I know that the thread hasn't seemed very inviting to people it was intentioned for. I hope more of them will speak up and that archinect will continue to be a place where architecture is the unifying element, whatever else divides us.
=
Wow... I am a gay architect in nyc, and never expected these kinds of comments from the people on this board. Especially cryzko, your comments are beyond out of line and not even the slightest bit funny. I suggest you stay out of this thread, as you obviously can not add any meaningful discussion to it.
There is a "making fun of homos is okay cause were cool with homos and have a gay friend" attitude. Maybe some gay people you guys know make fun of straight people, IDK. But to me, it shows some kind of deeper misunderstandings / ignorance.
As for the questions originally asked by enemyhands..
I was/am not closeted at school or work. I don't go around proclaiming to the fact that I am gay, but if someone asks I have no problem telling them. As to whether the field attracts more of us, I am not so sure. I have many gay friends who do work in non-creative fields (although i find that hard to define, I think creativity is a required aspect of all fields). Computer, IT, business, medical, law... I think stereotypically you could say that gay people are attracted to creative fields (this stereotype worsened by such shows as Queer Eye for the Straight Guy), but I think in the end, sexual orientation is only one factor in someone's personality, likes, desires, etc.
Odd -- I don't find anything "out of line" in cryzko's post -- but different folks have different sensitivities. I guess it's not for me to tell someone he or she hasn't been insulted. . .
i think i get what ATP is saying, and i think in similar terms...
it's not...
hey, s/he is a gay/straight architect...
it's
hey, s/he is a shitty/outstanding architect...
but yeah, yet another in a line of threads i don't see the necc. for.
Yeah, maybe. I had a long dispute with a fellow on another design site who wanted to claim that gays are the better artists, designers, craftsmen, whatever. How boring, and irrelevant, and. . .wrong. Like some kind of narrow-minded "our side is better than your side" thing.
I just finished sharing shop-space with a real sicko who apparently believed the same shit. The only other gay cabinetmaker I've run into, in 40 years. . .kind of sad.
ok....i just got called out again......
you think i'm some sort of basher/etc..... chill out....
i have been living in ferndale for 2.5 years and have liked every part of it.....
just a quick run down
detroit.about.com/od/neighborhoods/a/Ferndaleprofile.htm
Gay/Lesbian:
* Ferndale’s Craig Covery is the state’s first openly gay mayor
* The city plays host to the Motor City Pride festival
* Ferndale is home to Affirmations, a non-profit organization that helps “lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals find and develop community where we value and respect ourselves and others.”
i could care less what way you go..... it's your life..... just like everyone else.....
do i get all pissed off when the gay guy at the coffee house hits on me....no...i openly joke about it.....
did i get pissed when the 2 gay guys bought me a sweet 16 balloon on my 32 birthday and gave it to me at the coffee house and then sang happy birthday.....no..... it was actually cool since i dont celebrate my birthday....so.....
and i'm sure gay/lesbian folks have their fare share of "straight" jokes...... who cares..... ..... you think comedians care when they say stuff on stage ......... nope....... cause it's all in a context
if thats who you are then so be it...........
you think i get pissed when people tell me "what are you doing with you life?".."your not a designer"...."wtf do you know"... no...... cause i could care less.............
you do you............
you can get on my case if you want.......... i'm a "white" male..... and have dated outside of my race........ who cares..... but some people think that thats wrong............. and it's the closed minded people that get all pissed
it's also the closed minded people that tend to stir shit up and have to make excuses for there stupidity..............
realize that everyone goes through some sort of bullshit in life..... theres alot more people that tend to be at a lower level than yourself so they try to pull you down........... hence...let go of those people and move on.......... been there and done that...........
i still think that people are afraid to show whom/what they really are so they get all this built up negativity inside..... and at any chance to realease it, they do......... speak your mind and do yourself......
if you dont like the way i walk....keep in mind that we are walking in the same direction but on different roads.........
if you need guidance then ask...... if you need assurance then find a close friend..........
if you dont like the way my pants are baggy..... so be it...... i could care less........... because it's me............
www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1dCui0HXJg&feature=related
Am new to this group.
My husband and I are both gay American men who married in Canada in 2003 - the first country to allow American citizens to marry there without emigrating.
We've been together in love for 32 years - our first home together for ten years was Manhattan, NYC - now we live and work in Pennsylvania.
I'm the architect; I've worked in the profession around the world - Wales, London, Western Australia, and USA.
Hubby and I are both 61 next birthday. We hope to retire to our Pennsylvania home in a few years (it's all about keeping the health insurance where we each work until 65 when nationalized health care kicks in for the first time for Americans - Medicare).
We work 100 miles apart, and our home is 100 miles away from our jobs. We are members of our church - MCCNY, in Manhattan, where we attend often. UFMCC is actively working to achieve equality in civil marriage so that we could have the same 1,400 federal protections afforded by marriage that's automatically granted to those created heterosexual (or those pretending to be).
Wishing you all a fine 2009!
Timothy
Welcome to Archinect Timothy!
Archiqueer here - find it bears no relationship to ACTUAL design abilities, but certainly bears weight upon world view. Out and out and super out, but context is key to survival and bribing the gods of banal astrology to forecast things in your favor.
Welcome, Timothy. I get all weepy inside* when I hear about anyone who has been happily together for over 30 years, but even moreso when it's a same-gender couple who I am sure has had a much more difficult road facing how ignorant people can be, and especially given that at 61 the world was a vastly less accepting place when you were in your 20s.
Rereading this thread reminds me how people new to archinect might find it all a bit nasty, but honestly the soul of the site is in its openness, general good humor, and acknowledgement of the shared experience of the ridiculous field of architecture. Let's promote that some more in '09, OK, all?
*Note I am a total sap, I also get weepy when I hear of people becoming American citizens, babies being born, and pretty much any story about a dog.
What about queer dogs LB?
Or - Queer puppies becoming citizens?
Stop, evilp, my keyboard is getting soaked.
I second the sap comment, LB. Hearing about same-gender couples and/or biracial couples whom have overcome less-forgiving generations, makes me tear up. I want to hug them and tell them how thankful I am for standing their ground and proving that love will never succumb for social norms. (I hope that doesn't sound trite).
And about the tearing up thing, I always, always tear up while watching a movie on a plane. Regardless of the movie (hell, it could the ever-obnoxious films of Adam Sandler), I can guarantee I'd shed a tear but ONLY IF I WAS ON A PLANE. It's weird. And totally lame.
That not only doesn't sound trite, n_, it sounds like exactly what I wanted to say but didn't put into words.
Hi all:
Thank you for your kind and welcoming comments!
Ah, the words "Liberty Bell" makes me weepy, since I permanently returned to my native USA (from Perth, W. Australia) for the Bicentennial in 1976! No way would that Bicentennial outfit fit these days!
Maybe in 2009 I'll have more reasons to be able to feel untraumatized to actually enjoy saying the word "President" again?
Though to exercise important self-caring, my hubby and I are definitely gonna skip the Inauguration Invocation, given the level of unChristlike heterosexual-supremacy that's guaranteed to be flaunted.
My husband Earl is an ordained minister in the UCC - rather ironic since our new Prez is also UCC. So during the Invocation we'll simply shake the supremacists' dust from our feet, knowing we're Loved perfectly fine.
Happy New Year to you!
Tim
Right on -- and thanks so much for the welcome words, Tim. Best to Earl, and have a great New Year yourselves !
as for being closeted:
this should be clearer: it is totally irrelevant to favour being out over being closeted; this is a personal choice. what should be countered, ideally, is every societal, rather than personal, reason that forces someone to be closeted. the roots and not the tendrils
isn't gay activity severely illegal in the Emirates?
those guys must have guts.
Nocti-baby,
It is not irrelevant to the developing personality of the individual and its ability to be a part of the world within which it develops. It is a personal choice, but speaking from experience, it is usually one made when awareness of self is most immature, vulnerable and impressionable - when the unknowns of the world are so hypnotic that the effects upon consciousness can be devastating to the point of hopelessness.
Trying to change society is tricky, just like trying to change an individual. And I am sick of people trying to change other people, as was the societal context I emerged in and did not have the resources to contend.
I've found more value in being a healthy mirror and analogue for other closeted and so deeply fearful homos than I have ever in being an 'activist' or 'rights lobbyist' - because ultimate, that discussion is about political power and that game is not so important to me.
In any case, lets go get gay married somewhere intolerant - like Iran.
Interesting thoughts. I too have little interest in the politicizing of social trends and individual pain and pride. But I can say that it is hurtful -- and unnecessary -- to remain closeted.
In my experience the way that works is to let people know you first, then to come out. It is the best antidote to bias and bigotry that I have seen in my own life. . .
isn't everybody queer? i think it is part of our ancestry and genetics to lean that way to make peace
see our closest relative the bonobo,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Sexual_social_behavior
Completely and utterly agree.
peridotbritches;
perhaps our concerns differ. in my case, what is more significant for me is the reasons why anyone would want to remain closeted. this is a socio-political matter irrespective of one's own personal choice. i care more about a juridical and state-sponsered security than challenging people's prejudices (which i can overcome in courts of law, need that be). however, it also flows the other way. law is not an unprejudiced area of spotless absolutes; granted that certain people would need to be challenged for the law to provide said security.
as for the psychological well-being of the person in or out of the closet. well, that depends on the person. i know men who have sex with other men and who barely register the word "gay" or its social and political entails. they keep their sex with "chicos" to themselves and are quite healthy persons. to some extent, the so-called western world's "global" gay culture contains within it the reverse catholic-guilt incurring confession. to "be healthy" ( a freudian psychological equivalent to being free of sin) one must speak one's nature. this gay culture provides, on its own, the concerend homosexual with an impetus to confess. my home country, lebanon, is an interesing case where both an explicit westernized gay culture and the local sense of traditional discretion wage their little battles.
addition:
which i can overcome in courts of law AND police stations!
there is a certain amount of frisson and subversive delight to be derived from remaining in the closet: an outsider mole in straight society. but on the whole I think it is not a healthy situation, even if the person is naturally reticent and private.
farmer,
except when everyone can tell you're gay. then its just sad and embarrassing when you won't admit it.
Nocti:
"they keep their sex with "chicos" to themselves and are quite healthy persons."
There are many levels of 'health' - and the pattern above ultimately leads to confrontation which reveals the inherent weakness of that pattern. This pattern is based on spiritual ill-health by living a life in denial, or dismissive repression. Second is that this often accompanies a hetero-oriented married life where in the pattern of denial and 'secretive' sex also leads to very risky sexual practices and impulses that risk the health of the man's wife and also children who might possibly be born.
Confession is an interesting phenomena with the proper psychological 'loading' - I've often thought that a lot of the issues with the American persona would be begin to soften if we had a culture receptive to secular confession. I fear that that requires as 'spiritual' perspective most people on this planet have absolutely no interest in considering, because it requires looking at your life as whole and taking responsibility for all of that. But religious confession is of a slightly different tone than confession of self to self and then self to society.
Farmer: I enjoy that without being in the closet. Usually, homo's still in the closet are FAR less enjoyable to be around than you are suggesting. The closet is a prison of fear and deep neuroses that can take decades to unravel, if at all. Its not that enjoyable.
Yes, there is a certain pleasure in having (and having to keep) a personal secret. This is perhaps lost when one comes out. I have never (well, almost never) flaunted my "lifestyle" (ugh -- a term used to make bigots comfortable ?) nor joined whole-heartedly the "community" -- nor have I been accused of being a "self-hating" homosexual.
for the LGBTQ who wanna be academics, Berkeley has $$$ - too bad I'm a breeder. Additional details here.
can't you just pretend to be out?
you mean pretend to be queer?
Sure -- be a closet straight !
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Archinect
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