in an ecosystem, such as our earth's, it is all related.
Your point about pollution is a good one though. What manufacturers and industry may gain on one hand, we end up paying for on another in the form of greater health costs, etc.
I do agree that sustainability is a farce until we as a species are willing to realize and talk about the fact that uncontrolled growth, globally, in a framework of finite resources is untenable. Until that topic is discussed all other forms of 'sustainability' will only serve to heighten the long term issues as it will push any real changes further into the future.
I do look forward to industries such as solar getting the support and incentives that only industries such as oil and coal have received until now.
You have voted because you wanted to take back the White House, and because of you, we won together the swing states necessary to get to 270 electoral votes....
You know, I understand that a lot of people are asking, what does Hillary want? What does she want? Well, I want what I have always fought for in this whole campaign. I want to end the war in Iraq. I want to turn this economy around. I want health care for every American. I want every child to live up to his or her God-given potential, and I want the nearly 18 million Americans who voted for me to be respected, to be heard and no longer to be invisible....
I have been working on this issue not just for the past 16 months, but for 16 years. And it is a fight I will continue until every single American has health insurance. No exceptions and no excuses...
Now the question is, where do we go from here, and given how far we've come and where we need to go as a party, it's a question I don't take lightly. This has been a long campaign, and I will be making no decisions tonight. But this has always been your campaign, so to the 18 million people who voted for me and to our many other supporters out there of all ages, I want to hear from you. I hope you'll go to my website at HillaryClinton.com and share your thoughts with me and help in any way that you can.
In the coming days, I’ll be consulting with supporters and party leaders to determine how to move forward with the best interests of our party and our country guiding my way....
* admit, make a clean breast of; "She confessed that she had taken the money"
* be willing to concede; "I grant you this much"
* give over; surrender or relinquish to the physical control of another
* acknowledge defeat; "The candidate conceded after enough votes had come in to show that he would lose"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
and this is the email i awoke with today - and yes i sent it to her as "betadinesutures"
Hillary for President
Dear Betadinesutures,
I wanted you to be one of the first to know: on Saturday, I will hold an event in Washington D.C. to thank everyone who has supported my campaign. Over the course of the last 16 months, I have been privileged and touched to witness the incredible dedication and sacrifice of so many people working for our campaign. Every minute you put into helping us win, every dollar you gave to keep up the fight meant more to me than I can ever possibly tell you.
On Saturday, I will extend my congratulations to Senator Obama and my support for his candidacy. This has been a long and hard-fought campaign, but as I have always said, my differences with Senator Obama are small compared to the differences we have with Senator McCain and the Republicans.
I have said throughout the campaign that I would strongly support Senator Obama if he were the Democratic Party's nominee, and I intend to deliver on that promise.
When I decided to run for president, I knew exactly why I was getting into this race: to work hard every day for the millions of Americans who need a voice in the White House.
I made you -- and everyone who supported me -- a promise: to stand up for our shared values and to never back down. I'm going to keep that promise today, tomorrow, and for the rest of my life.
I will be speaking on Saturday about how together we can rally the party behind Senator Obama. The stakes are too high and the task before us too important to do otherwise.
I know as I continue my lifelong work for a stronger America and a better world, I will turn to you for the support, the strength, and the commitment that you have shown me in the past 16 months. And I will always keep faith with the issues and causes that are important to you.
In the past few days, you have shown that support once again with hundreds of thousands of messages to the campaign, and again, I am touched by your thoughtfulness and kindness.
I can never possibly express my gratitude, so let me say simply, thank you.
Can someone please explain to me what HRC's logic in basically conceding yet keeping her delegates. I seriously don't understand that logic. If the race is over than what's the point?
"An argument and a dispute may appear to be the same thing. However, an argument can be for or against, whereas a dispute is always against."
The following two sentences are in agreement with one another:
Aristotle argued that men and women have different kinds of reasons.
Aristotle disputed that men and women have the same reason."
I would argue that the most of the comments against Clinton which have appeared ih treads here at Archinect and out there as well are in fact disputes against Clinton.
Here's my email to Obama:
Senator Obama, you should really be toning down your self-importance just a few notches and start to worry about McCain. I realize that the part of your speech which I quoted above was the ending, and you were trying to finish on a high note, but that closer was to the wrong speech: it should have been the end of your speech in November (we hope).
The ending of two nights ago suggests that you think your victory over McCain is a done deal: if you really think that, then you're not learning from history, recent and not so recent. Harry Truman was considered as interesting as a 2x4 and looked totally hapless, and there was no chance, NO CHANCE, that he could ever beat...wait, what was his name again? And you just beat an opponent whose primary victory was considered "inevitable". So please, Obama, save the self-mythologizing for you victory speech in November, or you risk pulling a Clinton or a Dewey (yea, I knew his name all along, but I bet many people don't).
"my quoting of HRC is what i believe is drivel. she has not one humble bone in her body."
Ah, but that last paragraph of Obama's, where he claims he will set off the cure for everything that's wrong with this country, where so many other Presidents greater than he have failed, that's humble? and is also not so much campaign caca?
again Emilio, beginning to do something about something is NOT solving the problem, but it is in the very least a recognition that Obama is aware of a problem, and that with him as President it will get paid more than lip service.
at the end of the day i know that an Obama presidency will not be an elixir for all that ills us, but it will be a signal to me, the pple in the US and the world that the beginning of something more important than himself will have commenced.
HRC promising or McBush promising a gas tax holiday is the start of nothing. like i have said before; I want someone to tell me the hard truth rather than make an easy promise. Barack has never said anything will be easy, in fact he's stated just the opposite.
My point is really that statements like the one I mentioned reinforce many voters' (the ones that are not on board with him) suspicion that he'll just say anything as long as it sounds idealistic and is about change, and that there may not be any substance behind the words. He's promising a lot for someone who basically has two years as a senator under his belt - and I say that not as a reason why he couldn't be a good president: what he has done so far has worked, but the question is, will it be enough in the fall, and, if it is, can he get our friends in Washington to go along with him to make these changes? But I don't think he's going to underestimate McCain, he's too intelligent for that. As for his approach to Clinton, I'll use my favorite quote from The Godfather II: "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer".
"Senator Obama, you should really be toning down your self-importance just a few notches and start to worry about McCain."
Right. As opposed to clintons outpouring of humility and graciousness, held from a media isolated bunker 3 floors below bedrock without tv monitors or cell phone reception, so that her supporters could revel fully in her selflessness before the greater good. Maybe if Obama is lucky and humble enough she might just invite him to be VP under her new Imaginary Presidency of Hillarylandia.
Yea, but Clinton is not the Democratic nominee, Obama is, so who cares what her humility and graciousness are. My argument is directed more at Obama's approach to bring people on board who aren't yet (see post above): and don't think he's not gonna need them in the fall.
2 years ago Barack Obama was not even on the radar for President, Clinton was waiting for the coronation. How's that for Idealism? He had the audacity to run for something he had no chance of winning. Find where that exists in the history of our country. I'll take idealism over anything at this point, we need someone to believe the impossible is possible if we are prepared to work hard enough for it.
"I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began
to...."
Nice try, but his statement is clearly envisioning a future where he will have been President and have been the catalyst for all those great things (including the dropping of ocean levels) and presumes that we as old people will be sitting around and talking to our children or grandchildren about him like we now talk about Lincoln.
So yea, if he does do all that the statement suggests he will have done, then my statement about it will be a fallacy...but since he's not even the President elect yet, that statement presumes quite a bit.
"Which is why it might have been nice if Clinton had, yknow, actually encouraged them to do that."
You can bet your ass she'll encourage them if he makes her the VP choice...again "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer."
But I know it won't happen.
There's a great book by Doris Kearns Goodwin called "Team of Rivals", which is about how Lincoln brought in all the people he'd been running against and didn't really agree with to form his Cabinet. He thought that if he was constantly challanged it would keep him sharp and reaching for more than he might have otherwise...not a bad lesson there.
The problem with that assessment is that if Clinton actually gave a shit about the policies that help wouldnt be conditional.
Look were all trying to bring this together, its a pretty constant battle for me just to hold my tongue. Obama right now is basically taking wednesdays' knife-in-the-back and handing it back saying "Hey, its cool." I do place somewhat irrational faith in Clinton to get the hint and actually start doing something to bring the party together so we have some prayer of actually winning this fall, irrespective of her own political ambitions or who the VP is gonna be, but I havent seen that yet.
I'm just not sweating it that much. The assessment of her position given on the site linked by e above is pretty good. Look, she captured a lot of delegates in a close race. She's now dealing with the fact that her dream is shattered, so that's going to take a few days (knife-in-the-back is a bit of an exaggeration, c'mon).
But as the article says, holding that many delegates gives her some clout, and so it should, it always has before, not just with her. Anyway, the party is going to start coming down hard on her and I think she'll tow the line eventually (like the next couple of week). Look, no worries mate, Obama's got the nomination, he'll know how to work it out, if he's as clever as I think.
Toe the line is actually the survivor of a set of phrases that were common in the nineteenth century; others were toe the mark, toe the scratch, toe the crack, or toe the trig. In every case, the image was that of men lining up with the tips of their toes touching some line. They might be on parade, or preparing to undertake some task, or in readiness for a race or fight. The earliest recorded form is dated 1813, in a book by
Ok, so he said we, but what is the momentious moment that is setting all this off? the generator? his getting the Democratic nomination - not even his winning the actual office: to me that shows a little presumption, in that there's another campaign to be run before he can step into the office and start some of these changes.
Look, everyone reacts differently to these speeches: I'll just say that I was enjoying his speech greatly, but when he got to the closing paragraph, particularly the part about the oceans receding, I did a spit take with my drink....just didn't sound right to me. It was more about forming his future legend, starting his myth, and not in keeping with the message of the rest of the speech. I think I know what he meant to say, but he (or his speech writer) just phrased it wrong.
"just didn't sound right to me. It was more about forming his future legend, starting his myth, and not in keeping with the message of the rest of the speech"
And you don't see ten times that from Clinton?...come on...I mean, yes, he is a politician. All things considered he has been much more humble in comparison to her...no question about it.
Why does every comment still have to be in comparison to Clinton? Yes, I agree that her sights are well set on her future legend, but I really don't care how it compares to her: I'm just commenting on certain messages, subtle or not so subtle, that Obama is giving in his speeches that may not help him from here on in. There's many voters who just aren't convinced, and, unfortunately, the speeches he gives from now on are going to be what they go by (he's going to have little time now to impress people in his Senator job).
But, ok, looks like it didn't sound funny to most in this thread (although I have spoken to some people at work about it and they confirm some of what I'm saying.) Anyway, I'm sure Obama and is staff are considering reactions to the speech and how to make the future ones even better (and they probably don't read Archinect....but I am still waiting for a response to my email ;)
well lets see...why would one compare the two? do you really need an answer?
and all these polls and the like saying he can't do well in the presidential election...well, they said the same 16 months ago about the dem. nomination...and now look where we are.
My point is a tiny flaw you see in one line of his speech pales in comparison to her actions as far as harming him in the election...her own democratic supporters are even flabbergasted now by her wavering...and she is not doing,"whatever it takes to beat McCain"...she has played lip service and then has acted as the spoiled sport...
I personally think you are going to see a big difference in his electability once he and McCain debate...because McCain is one of the worst public speakers I have ever seen...let it play out before you get all your feathers ruffled.
Emilio, two things you are missing here. First, seeing yourself "as" President is step one in getting everyone else to see as such, remember that this is a candidate that is believed to be; Muslim, not American, black or not black enough, inexperienced, elitist, America hater, capitulator, blah, blah, blah. So if doing that plants ease in some of those that are fearful then fine.
Second, Hillary holding on to her delegates returns this campaign back to where we all started; it's not about America's best interests, it's about hers. Honestly, I could give two fucks about HRC, she missed her moment of presidentiality several times. She could have been the legend that everyone wanted her to be at the end; when everyone in her campaign told her to keep fighting, she could have stepped to them and said the following - "Listen, I appreciate your loving support, and your desire to keep fighting, I am truly moved by your loyalty, but this is over, I am conceding, and we will line up behind Barack and swear our undying loyalty to the next POTUS and anyone with a problem with that should take that free plane ticket and go home." Then she should have said this to Terry McAullif; "Do not introduce me as the next President of the United States."
It's been said that McCain could use the exposure of some town-hall style debates (one on one), which he has proposed, because he's hurting for money. Also it's suggested that he is best in that format -- unscripted talk -- and that he's death when behind a mic and a teleprompter.
SDR, actually, McBush has some of his dumbest things in front of town halls, Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran and the 100 years of Iraq, both in town halls.
"She could have been the legend that everyone wanted her to be at the end; when everyone in her campaign told her to keep fighting, she could have stepped to them and said the following - "Listen, I appreciate your loving support, and your desire to keep fighting, I am truly moved by your loyalty, but this is over, I am conceding, and we will line up behind Barack and swear our undying loyalty to the next POTUS and anyone with a problem with that should take that free plane ticket and go home."
Well, beta, in an ideal, Walt Disney world, yes, everyone would act like that and be totally selfless and always do the claims that Obama is above all that, that he will do things differently, that he'll never compromise, that he'll be able to push through all the change he is promising...but that remains to be seen, doesn't it? Even the God of the Republican renaissance, R. Reagan himself, made a run at Ford at the convention of '76, and he's going to be made saint any day now. Everyone uses what leverage they have in their perspective worlds and jobs. The fact is, Obama didn't win with any sort of huge mandate, he won by a small margin, so that gives his opponent some say on how the party proceeds from this point, and that's not being a "spoil sport".
As far as me making a small thing about one part of his speech and Clinton being much worse, let me ask people here a question:
Can anyone make ANY constructive criticism about Obama here in this thread or at Archinect, or is this just a Barack admiration society? and does every GD response to these comments have to be "yea, but look at Hillary, it's her fault" ??
So a couple of months from now, if Obama has a poor performance in a debate it will be "well, Hillary dropped out too late"; and if in October, he doesn't poll well against McCain, it will be Hillary's fault again....Hilllary, Hilllary, Hilllary....WTF? Don't bother, I already know the answer...
I realize that there's a group here, and out in the country, that thinks every problem in this country, hell, every problem in the world, can be laid at the Clintons' feet. I personally think that theory is a load of crap, and so do many others in this country (as seen by the amount of votes she got). But hey, knock yourself out...and maybe read "Moby Dick": that's a good example of someone going insane over an obsession that he can't let go of.
I enjoy contributing to these threads because I like the fact that people here are interested enough to give thoughtful responses, and are passionate about this election, and a lot of that is thanks to Obama. But Clinton will be out of the scene soon, and if I can't even say "Obama phrased that badly", or "Here's what he's not doing right to get his message across", and get something else other than "but Hillary is worse", then what the hell is the point of a discussion?
Well, beta, in an ideal, Walt Disney world, yes, everyone would act like that and be totally selfless and always do the right thing. Everyone here claims that Obama is above all that,
"Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton sat in comfortable chairs, sipped water and spoke for an hour about the presidential campaign to come. Just the two of them, without aides. And they parted laughing."
"On Friday, Clinton's campaign said she would deliver her formal endorsement of Obama at a noon gathering at the National Building Museum and urge Democrats to unite behind his candidacy. Obama secured the 2,118 delegates needed to win the nomination Tuesday after primaries in Montana and South Dakota."
"Clinton spent much of Friday working on her concession speech with campaign manager Maggie Williams, media adviser Mandy Grunwald and strategist Mark Penn. Aides described the process as painstaking and emotional but said there was no question Clinton would enthusiastically endorse Obama in the speech."
believe me i don't think Obama's perfect, i really think he needs to understand how to be comfortable in front of whatever audience he's in front of. i think he needs to remind people of his upbringing. he doesn't make the case well enough of the connection between Iraq and the economy. he doesn't discuss the built environment. he should play down the religion part enough. he doesn't keep McBush on the offensive enough.
VOTE OBAMA
in an ecosystem, such as our earth's, it is all related.
Your point about pollution is a good one though. What manufacturers and industry may gain on one hand, we end up paying for on another in the form of greater health costs, etc.
I do agree that sustainability is a farce until we as a species are willing to realize and talk about the fact that uncontrolled growth, globally, in a framework of finite resources is untenable. Until that topic is discussed all other forms of 'sustainability' will only serve to heighten the long term issues as it will push any real changes further into the future.
I do look forward to industries such as solar getting the support and incentives that only industries such as oil and coal have received until now.
Well, as they say on the internets:
Emilio,
You have voted because you wanted to take back the White House, and because of you, we won together the swing states necessary to get to 270 electoral votes....You know, I understand that a lot of people are asking, what does Hillary want? What does she want? Well, I want what I have always fought for in this whole campaign. I want to end the war in Iraq. I want to turn this economy around. I want health care for every American. I want every child to live up to his or her God-given potential, and I want the nearly 18 million Americans who voted for me to be respected, to be heard and no longer to be invisible....
I have been working on this issue not just for the past 16 months, but for 16 years. And it is a fight I will continue until every single American has health insurance. No exceptions and no excuses...
Now the question is, where do we go from here, and given how far we've come and where we need to go as a party, it's a question I don't take lightly. This has been a long campaign, and I will be making no decisions tonight. But this has always been your campaign, so to the 18 million people who voted for me and to our many other supporters out there of all ages, I want to hear from you. I hope you'll go to my website at HillaryClinton.com and share your thoughts with me and help in any way that you can.
In the coming days, I’ll be consulting with supporters and party leaders to determine how to move forward with the best interests of our party and our country guiding my way....
all drivel.
no no no more of that.
more lolbamas,
I sent Hillary an email that went like this:
Hillary for PresidentGET OUT!
Definitions of concede on the Web:
* admit, make a clean breast of; "She confessed that she had taken the money"
* be willing to concede; "I grant you this much"
* give over; surrender or relinquish to the physical control of another
* acknowledge defeat; "The candidate conceded after enough votes had come in to show that he would lose"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
* yielding - agreeing despite previously disagreeing
www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/Vocab.htm
and this is the email i awoke with today - and yes i sent it to her as "betadinesutures"
Dear Betadinesutures,
I wanted you to be one of the first to know: on Saturday, I will hold an event in Washington D.C. to thank everyone who has supported my campaign. Over the course of the last 16 months, I have been privileged and touched to witness the incredible dedication and sacrifice of so many people working for our campaign. Every minute you put into helping us win, every dollar you gave to keep up the fight meant more to me than I can ever possibly tell you.
On Saturday, I will extend my congratulations to Senator Obama and my support for his candidacy. This has been a long and hard-fought campaign, but as I have always said, my differences with Senator Obama are small compared to the differences we have with Senator McCain and the Republicans.
I have said throughout the campaign that I would strongly support Senator Obama if he were the Democratic Party's nominee, and I intend to deliver on that promise.
When I decided to run for president, I knew exactly why I was getting into this race: to work hard every day for the millions of Americans who need a voice in the White House.
I made you -- and everyone who supported me -- a promise: to stand up for our shared values and to never back down. I'm going to keep that promise today, tomorrow, and for the rest of my life.
I will be speaking on Saturday about how together we can rally the party behind Senator Obama. The stakes are too high and the task before us too important to do otherwise.
I know as I continue my lifelong work for a stronger America and a better world, I will turn to you for the support, the strength, and the commitment that you have shown me in the past 16 months. And I will always keep faith with the issues and causes that are important to you.
In the past few days, you have shown that support once again with hundreds of thousands of messages to the campaign, and again, I am touched by your thoughtfulness and kindness.
I can never possibly express my gratitude, so let me say simply, thank you.
Sincerely,
Hillary
Hillary Rodham Clinton
she listened.
you're a real mover and shaker, beta.
let the healing begin. [tongue stuck firmly in cheek]
Ah yes: drivel=whatever I say is drivel.
Your hubris is right up there with Obama's.
But, again, who gives a shit, it's over.
emilio are you functionally illiterate?
my quoting of HRC is what i believe is drivel. she has not one humble bone in her body.
Can someone please explain to me what HRC's logic in basically conceding yet keeping her delegates. I seriously don't understand that logic. If the race is over than what's the point?
[url=http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6139]
Why Clinton Will Hold Onto Her Delegates (For Now)[/url]
hmm...
[url=http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6139]
Why Clinton Will Hold Onto Her Delegates[/url]
crap.
Why Clinton Will Hold Onto Her Delegates (For Now)
http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6139
*argue and dispute
"An argument and a dispute may appear to be the same thing. However, an argument can be for or against, whereas a dispute is always against."
The following two sentences are in agreement with one another:
Aristotle argued that men and women have different kinds of reasons.
Aristotle disputed that men and women have the same reason."
I would argue that the most of the comments against Clinton which have appeared ih treads here at Archinect and out there as well are in fact disputes against Clinton.
Here's my email to Obama:
Senator Obama, you should really be toning down your self-importance just a few notches and start to worry about McCain. I realize that the part of your speech which I quoted above was the ending, and you were trying to finish on a high note, but that closer was to the wrong speech: it should have been the end of your speech in November (we hope).
The ending of two nights ago suggests that you think your victory over McCain is a done deal: if you really think that, then you're not learning from history, recent and not so recent. Harry Truman was considered as interesting as a 2x4 and looked totally hapless, and there was no chance, NO CHANCE, that he could ever beat...wait, what was his name again? And you just beat an opponent whose primary victory was considered "inevitable". So please, Obama, save the self-mythologizing for you victory speech in November, or you risk pulling a Clinton or a Dewey (yea, I knew his name all along, but I bet many people don't).
yours sincerely,
A supporter
He hasn't replied yet (I don't think he has too many humble bones either).
"my quoting of HRC is what i believe is drivel. she has not one humble bone in her body."
Ah, but that last paragraph of Obama's, where he claims he will set off the cure for everything that's wrong with this country, where so many other Presidents greater than he have failed, that's humble? and is also not so much campaign caca?
I LOVE him frowning upon my shenanigans. . .
He has purple lips. There, I said it.
it's because she needs to pay off her 40 million dollar debt. that's what Air America says
again Emilio, beginning to do something about something is NOT solving the problem, but it is in the very least a recognition that Obama is aware of a problem, and that with him as President it will get paid more than lip service.
at the end of the day i know that an Obama presidency will not be an elixir for all that ills us, but it will be a signal to me, the pple in the US and the world that the beginning of something more important than himself will have commenced.
HRC promising or McBush promising a gas tax holiday is the start of nothing. like i have said before; I want someone to tell me the hard truth rather than make an easy promise. Barack has never said anything will be easy, in fact he's stated just the opposite.
The gas holiday thing was caca too, I agree.
My point is really that statements like the one I mentioned reinforce many voters' (the ones that are not on board with him) suspicion that he'll just say anything as long as it sounds idealistic and is about change, and that there may not be any substance behind the words. He's promising a lot for someone who basically has two years as a senator under his belt - and I say that not as a reason why he couldn't be a good president: what he has done so far has worked, but the question is, will it be enough in the fall, and, if it is, can he get our friends in Washington to go along with him to make these changes? But I don't think he's going to underestimate McCain, he's too intelligent for that. As for his approach to Clinton, I'll use my favorite quote from The Godfather II: "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer".
Anyway,
BEAT McCAIN!
"He has purple lips. There, I said it."
Its the wine. Always with the wine.
"Senator Obama, you should really be toning down your self-importance just a few notches and start to worry about McCain."
Right. As opposed to clintons outpouring of humility and graciousness, held from a media isolated bunker 3 floors below bedrock without tv monitors or cell phone reception, so that her supporters could revel fully in her selflessness before the greater good. Maybe if Obama is lucky and humble enough she might just invite him to be VP under her new Imaginary Presidency of Hillarylandia.
Yea, but Clinton is not the Democratic nominee, Obama is, so who cares what her humility and graciousness are. My argument is directed more at Obama's approach to bring people on board who aren't yet (see post above): and don't think he's not gonna need them in the fall.
Which is why it might have been nice if Clinton had, yknow, actually encouraged them to do that.
"where so many other Presidents greater than he have failed"
since Obama has never (yet) been President, this statement is a complete fallacy.
did you see Comedy Central where they insinuated that it was gay men who are the last to support hillary?
Emilio,
2 years ago Barack Obama was not even on the radar for President, Clinton was waiting for the coronation. How's that for Idealism? He had the audacity to run for something he had no chance of winning. Find where that exists in the history of our country. I'll take idealism over anything at this point, we need someone to believe the impossible is possible if we are prepared to work hard enough for it.
I dont think thats what it was insinuating. Actually I dont know what that was insinuating..
"I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began
to...."
Nice try, but his statement is clearly envisioning a future where he will have been President and have been the catalyst for all those great things (including the dropping of ocean levels) and presumes that we as old people will be sitting around and talking to our children or grandchildren about him like we now talk about Lincoln.
So yea, if he does do all that the statement suggests he will have done, then my statement about it will be a fallacy...but since he's not even the President elect yet, that statement presumes quite a bit.
(response to db)
"Which is why it might have been nice if Clinton had, yknow, actually encouraged them to do that."
You can bet your ass she'll encourage them if he makes her the VP choice...again "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer."
But I know it won't happen.
There's a great book by Doris Kearns Goodwin called "Team of Rivals", which is about how Lincoln brought in all the people he'd been running against and didn't really agree with to form his Cabinet. He thought that if he was constantly challanged it would keep him sharp and reaching for more than he might have otherwise...not a bad lesson there.
The problem with that assessment is that if Clinton actually gave a shit about the policies that help wouldnt be conditional.
Look were all trying to bring this together, its a pretty constant battle for me just to hold my tongue. Obama right now is basically taking wednesdays' knife-in-the-back and handing it back saying "Hey, its cool." I do place somewhat irrational faith in Clinton to get the hint and actually start doing something to bring the party together so we have some prayer of actually winning this fall, irrespective of her own political ambitions or who the VP is gonna be, but I havent seen that yet.
I'm just not sweating it that much. The assessment of her position given on the site linked by e above is pretty good. Look, she captured a lot of delegates in a close race. She's now dealing with the fact that her dream is shattered, so that's going to take a few days (knife-in-the-back is a bit of an exaggeration, c'mon).
But as the article says, holding that many delegates gives her some clout, and so it should, it always has before, not just with her. Anyway, the party is going to start coming down hard on her and I think she'll tow the line eventually (like the next couple of week). Look, no worries mate, Obama's got the nomination, he'll know how to work it out, if he's as clever as I think.
Toe the line is actually the survivor of a set of phrases that were common in the nineteenth century; others were toe the mark, toe the scratch, toe the crack, or toe the trig. In every case, the image was that of men lining up with the tips of their toes touching some line. They might be on parade, or preparing to undertake some task, or in readiness for a race or fight. The earliest recorded form is dated 1813, in a book by
well, i'll be...always thought it was "tow". toe makes more sense. thanks sdr.
to...."
when WE began...WE. not ME. WE, as in ALL OF US, TOGETHER.
Ok, so he said we, but what is the momentious moment that is setting all this off? the generator? his getting the Democratic nomination - not even his winning the actual office: to me that shows a little presumption, in that there's another campaign to be run before he can step into the office and start some of these changes.
Look, everyone reacts differently to these speeches: I'll just say that I was enjoying his speech greatly, but when he got to the closing paragraph, particularly the part about the oceans receding, I did a spit take with my drink....just didn't sound right to me. It was more about forming his future legend, starting his myth, and not in keeping with the message of the rest of the speech. I think I know what he meant to say, but he (or his speech writer) just phrased it wrong.
"just didn't sound right to me. It was more about forming his future legend, starting his myth, and not in keeping with the message of the rest of the speech"
And you don't see ten times that from Clinton?...come on...I mean, yes, he is a politician. All things considered he has been much more humble in comparison to her...no question about it.
Why does every comment still have to be in comparison to Clinton? Yes, I agree that her sights are well set on her future legend, but I really don't care how it compares to her: I'm just commenting on certain messages, subtle or not so subtle, that Obama is giving in his speeches that may not help him from here on in. There's many voters who just aren't convinced, and, unfortunately, the speeches he gives from now on are going to be what they go by (he's going to have little time now to impress people in his Senator job).
But, ok, looks like it didn't sound funny to most in this thread (although I have spoken to some people at work about it and they confirm some of what I'm saying.) Anyway, I'm sure Obama and is staff are considering reactions to the speech and how to make the future ones even better (and they probably don't read Archinect....but I am still waiting for a response to my email ;)
well lets see...why would one compare the two? do you really need an answer?
and all these polls and the like saying he can't do well in the presidential election...well, they said the same 16 months ago about the dem. nomination...and now look where we are.
My point is a tiny flaw you see in one line of his speech pales in comparison to her actions as far as harming him in the election...her own democratic supporters are even flabbergasted now by her wavering...and she is not doing,"whatever it takes to beat McCain"...she has played lip service and then has acted as the spoiled sport...
I personally think you are going to see a big difference in his electability once he and McCain debate...because McCain is one of the worst public speakers I have ever seen...let it play out before you get all your feathers ruffled.
Emilio, two things you are missing here. First, seeing yourself "as" President is step one in getting everyone else to see as such, remember that this is a candidate that is believed to be; Muslim, not American, black or not black enough, inexperienced, elitist, America hater, capitulator, blah, blah, blah. So if doing that plants ease in some of those that are fearful then fine.
Second, Hillary holding on to her delegates returns this campaign back to where we all started; it's not about America's best interests, it's about hers. Honestly, I could give two fucks about HRC, she missed her moment of presidentiality several times. She could have been the legend that everyone wanted her to be at the end; when everyone in her campaign told her to keep fighting, she could have stepped to them and said the following - "Listen, I appreciate your loving support, and your desire to keep fighting, I am truly moved by your loyalty, but this is over, I am conceding, and we will line up behind Barack and swear our undying loyalty to the next POTUS and anyone with a problem with that should take that free plane ticket and go home." Then she should have said this to Terry McAullif; "Do not introduce me as the next President of the United States."
It's been said that McCain could use the exposure of some town-hall style debates (one on one), which he has proposed, because he's hurting for money. Also it's suggested that he is best in that format -- unscripted talk -- and that he's death when behind a mic and a teleprompter.
SDR, actually, McBush has some of his dumbest things in front of town halls, Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran and the 100 years of Iraq, both in town halls.
FCUK THE CORPORATE WORLD!!!
Right -- but Bush isn't McCain. Really.
ya Bush is much more deceptive and cunning, or at least he can keep his mouth in line with 'the message'
lifeless institutions running things, bad idea.
"She could have been the legend that everyone wanted her to be at the end; when everyone in her campaign told her to keep fighting, she could have stepped to them and said the following - "Listen, I appreciate your loving support, and your desire to keep fighting, I am truly moved by your loyalty, but this is over, I am conceding, and we will line up behind Barack and swear our undying loyalty to the next POTUS and anyone with a problem with that should take that free plane ticket and go home."
Well, beta, in an ideal, Walt Disney world, yes, everyone would act like that and be totally selfless and always do the claims that Obama is above all that, that he will do things differently, that he'll never compromise, that he'll be able to push through all the change he is promising...but that remains to be seen, doesn't it? Even the God of the Republican renaissance, R. Reagan himself, made a run at Ford at the convention of '76, and he's going to be made saint any day now. Everyone uses what leverage they have in their perspective worlds and jobs. The fact is, Obama didn't win with any sort of huge mandate, he won by a small margin, so that gives his opponent some say on how the party proceeds from this point, and that's not being a "spoil sport".
As far as me making a small thing about one part of his speech and Clinton being much worse, let me ask people here a question:
Can anyone make ANY constructive criticism about Obama here in this thread or at Archinect, or is this just a Barack admiration society? and does every GD response to these comments have to be "yea, but look at Hillary, it's her fault" ??
So a couple of months from now, if Obama has a poor performance in a debate it will be "well, Hillary dropped out too late"; and if in October, he doesn't poll well against McCain, it will be Hillary's fault again....Hilllary, Hilllary, Hilllary....WTF? Don't bother, I already know the answer...
I realize that there's a group here, and out in the country, that thinks every problem in this country, hell, every problem in the world, can be laid at the Clintons' feet. I personally think that theory is a load of crap, and so do many others in this country (as seen by the amount of votes she got). But hey, knock yourself out...and maybe read "Moby Dick": that's a good example of someone going insane over an obsession that he can't let go of.
I enjoy contributing to these threads because I like the fact that people here are interested enough to give thoughtful responses, and are passionate about this election, and a lot of that is thanks to Obama. But Clinton will be out of the scene soon, and if I can't even say "Obama phrased that badly", or "Here's what he's not doing right to get his message across", and get something else other than "but Hillary is worse", then what the hell is the point of a discussion?
that second paragraph should read"
Well, beta, in an ideal, Walt Disney world, yes, everyone would act like that and be totally selfless and always do the right thing. Everyone here claims that Obama is above all that,
and, beta, I'm not including you, you didn't harp on HRC, rather responded to the point.
"Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton sat in comfortable chairs, sipped water and spoke for an hour about the presidential campaign to come. Just the two of them, without aides. And they parted laughing."
"On Friday, Clinton's campaign said she would deliver her formal endorsement of Obama at a noon gathering at the National Building Museum and urge Democrats to unite behind his candidacy. Obama secured the 2,118 delegates needed to win the nomination Tuesday after primaries in Montana and South Dakota."
"Clinton spent much of Friday working on her concession speech with campaign manager Maggie Williams, media adviser Mandy Grunwald and strategist Mark Penn. Aides described the process as painstaking and emotional but said there was no question Clinton would enthusiastically endorse Obama in the speech."
you guys worry too much...
believe me i don't think Obama's perfect, i really think he needs to understand how to be comfortable in front of whatever audience he's in front of. i think he needs to remind people of his upbringing. he doesn't make the case well enough of the connection between Iraq and the economy. he doesn't discuss the built environment. he should play down the religion part enough. he doesn't keep McBush on the offensive enough.
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