Dont knock it till you try it.

A degree doesn’t mean anything if they don’t have the talent or knowledge to make it in the real world.

That's what I'm talking about.

some schools do kick them out. UF was one of them. I assume most of the good undergrads kick 'em to the street.

Design 1, first semester of undergrad, I'd guess about 50% of our class dropped out in the first month or two (with quotes like "man, I thought I'd be able to party!" Ha. Kids can be so silly)

And now they are very likely making more money, making more of a contibution to the world, and happier than all of us...oh well.

Every school kicks people out if they don’t get passing grades. What is the difference between one person who spends two hours on a project and gets passing grade vs. someone who spends two days and gets the same grade? As long as you make the grade who cares.

If they're getting the same grade, then maybe they're just more efficient than you are?

Exactly

great conflict i sense in you,
out drinking you wish you were.

ok, schools shouldnt determine the way or the method or the minimum hours of their students. the worth of the degree should be determined on the quality of the work, not hours in the studio. there is allready too much of a bullshit "im more hardcore than you, i did 5 days without sleep" competative culture.

if a student can fuck around for most of the semester then pull out a great design, good for them, chances are if they fuck around too much then the design will suffer and they will probably be exposed when they enter the workforce.

ps. fucking around then pulling something outta my arse at the last minute is my prefered option.

Points well taken. I think I should have been more clear, I was referring to people who do the bare minimum to pass design studio. These people do not contribute to an architectural discussion as a whole, they bring nothing to the table.

Also, I do not think its about "who's more hardcore" I believe its about trying to get the most out of school. That is why some people spend nights not sleeping because they are working to get the best design they can and are not satisfied with the first intuitive project they develop. Its about testing and refining to the last possible minute. You get what you put in, but why should someone who does not care about their work take away jury time from someone who spent the time and did the work?

You are saying the same thing again, Its their prerogative if they want to do the bare minimum to get by, once they get to the real world the might run in to problems.
Some people choose to live their life by just doing the bare minimum. Those people are usually insignificant in the lives of those who work hard and strive to improve and be the best

i didnt read most of the rest of this thread
<whining>
i have worked a 10 hour day (on a sunday).
to finish up my project so that i can help out on a different project.
for a team that has had 1 person come in to work extra over the weekend.
slackasses.
it doesn't end when you are out of school.
</whining>

i think what sheri24 is saying is that we should all be more like pretty boy brian and wear 37 pieces of flair.

Yoda, I hate to say it, but if they are doing the minimum to get by, then that's getting by. Every teacher/class/school/whatever establishes their minimums, and if people reach them they reach them. There has to be a minimum *somewhere*. If they raised the minimum to a new level, then you'd STILL be on here whining about people who only did the bare (new and higher) minimum. It really is unfortunately that people do this, but if it's any consolation, those I know who have done this have NOT made it in architecture once they graduate. They go work as managers at Bed, Bath & Beyond instead.

And the funny thing is, the place I went to school doesn't kick you out if you fail classes. They let you keep retaking the classes, and keep failing you as often as you deserve. Then if you don't have a high enough GPA, they don't let you graduate. But they don't actually kick you out... they just see how long you'll continue to pay them thousands of dollars to fail. It's like one of those online intelligence tests that grades you by when you realize it's fucked up and quit. Not saying it's a perfect system, but it's vaguely humorous to see one of these people get trapped in it.

Oh yeah, and they take away your financial aid, just to be sure that you're learning the lesson on your own $$$$.

Kill em all

let God sort em out

but degree-less talent or knowledge doesn’t mean anything to the real world because it doesn’t have the brains to make it out.

there's too much talk about bare, asses, and sleeping in this thread.

is this enough flair for you?
http://usssabalo.org/PC-Paynehero_Holcomb.jpg

boys make passes at girls with bare (ahem)

i'm sleeping now. can you tell?

during my undergrad years we we used to call them 'the 40%'ers...

that was the pass rate at my old school.

now that im in grad school, im a 40%er and proud of it.

Nice Spiderdad,

I am in grad school, and will take away a nice heavy piece of paper at the end of it, with my name written in pretty caligraphy. I will also have made some useful contacts, and produced some just passable work.

I have other things to do than study. Spending days and extra days refining the concepts and structure in apiece of work is not contibuting as much to my life or my ability to contribute to the world as going out to work on my days away from school.

Many of the 40%ers will actually have some other aspects of life to deal with alongside their studies, even if that is just getting through their first bout of alcoholism/depression/financial or existential woe.

Kick their worthless asses out of school, or at least out of the major...
All the essential points have been made why:

1. They're eating up our financial Aid
2. The school should be doing them a favor by saying "Hey there, maybe this isn't for you, why don't you try biochemistry?"
3. These are the jerkoffs that are going into the real world and building the Best Buys and vomit quality architecture, which affects all of us!

I am even more impressed when they find a way to utilize the hard work of others to realize their vision.

silly fro9k, that doesn't happen

This used to really anger me when in college. I remember pinning up projects and always seeing a couple standouts that looked way out of place. Why? Because they sucked. And we'd always wonder why they were still in the program. Some of them graduated with the same degree I got. At the time I was upset. Today I don't really think about it anymore and haven't kept in touch to see what the slackers are doing. My only hope is that they are doing Autocad toilet room elevations for the new Wal-Mart store out in the country.

SuperBeatledud - I'm sure some of the slackers are working on Best Buy stores. Of course none of us on this forum would find that interesting work, but having met some people that work at their corporate arch department, I would accept their paycheck. Unfortunately for the talented there is good money in bad architecture. Maybe the joke really is on us.

Work vs. Labor:

Are you in it for the joy of accomplishment? Of putting forth your best effort to see if you're able to make something great - that you're really proud to have done?

Or is it for the recognition? The grade? The status? The money?

I admit, its anoying to have studios dilluted by kids who do nothing. At least with kids who work and dont think thier projects come out clearly. I dont know youve gotta be a bit of a buddhist about it though, just be patient and do your thing man. Everyones got thier pace.

I think there is something to be said for a certain kind of laziness. The architects I know tend to error more on the working to hard and making too big a deal of things. I always admire people who can do less and just do what’s important. If you can get this nailed, then you can work your ass off later and do a lot of important stuff instead of just generating a lot of froth.

It’s easy to get on self righteous ego trip about being better than the pathetic people who just aren’t pulling it off (until they figure it out and start kicking ass in some weird way you didn’t think of) but be glad that they are there to make you look good.

The really tragic condition which will inspire true catharsis in a wise architect is the hubris driven, overwrought, over-rendered, banality we see a lot of. Its rough when you see something and all you can think is “that’s so good; to bad it sucks” followed by “somebody’s rendering department is going to love that kid”.

Drunken Master Fighting style: That’s what I’m working on.

honestly, i get the feeling that this happens in tons of professions. there are the type-A go getters who do phenomenally, and there are the people who do just enough to get by.

there are tiers of schools and of jobs in architecture as there are in law and medicine. i can't count the number of dummies from high school who i now hear about getting their law and medical degrees from no-name schools. a neighbor of mine growing up is now in med school in st. maarten. now you tell me, what the hell kind of qualified med school is in st. maarten? but someday he's going to be a doctor and his mommy will be uber proud of him.

now what's scarier, a bad architect or a bad doctor? i'm not sure either.

Those that do just enough to get by in school are destined to go to the office and (instead of working) surf the internet and post on some internet message b. . . oh wait, forget it.

Don't work your ass off unless you get paid for it. Or at least 40% of it.
Whew! That's a lot of typing for one day. Time to go get drunk.

i disagree, j. to me the most disappointing thing about grad school was that out of 70 students, only about 1/3 were really interested in getting anything done. i mean, look at how many students didn't even finish thesis on time. you couldn't have been one of the slacker students, because you worked 12 jobs the whole time.

There's no argument here, do your work or go get a job at McDonalds...end of story!!!!!

i dont underestand why people care so much about what other people do, worry about your own life

Because some people's jobs and their quality of how they do their jobs affect my life.

that's true

i can only think of one?! what is that supposed to mean?

i'm going to destroy you for doubting me

i once doubed le bossman...i've been a wreck ever since.

anyhow, i'm more concerned with the hard-working people who have no business being in architecture than i am with the lazy ones. anybody who doesn't do anything fades into obscurity quickly. however, the hardworking (but otherwise talentless) have had a much more lasting detrimental effect on the architecture of america.

i'd rather that we evaluated the merit of arhitecture students more on the quality of work rather than an individual's ability to commit 20 hours per day to a project. those with talent have a tendency to make things look easy and the best of them often do find it to be easy. we'd probably be better off by each identifying our own talents (i.e., those things that come easily to us) and then accentuating that latent ability. our ideal role model should be the architect who achieves excellence in 40 hours/week and leads a relatively balance life rather than the work-addicted types that we often find our selves competing with.

huh...i wonder who that was...in our grade?

i'm lazy and i produce schlock...but at least i didn't spend a lot of time producing schlock

I dont waste my time on the reviews of the 40%ers...but I somewhat have the priviledge of doing that. I assume most of you dont.

wait i think i know what you're talking about. hey puddles what about the "conjugating q. poop" spam emails? i about peed my pants when i read your post...

"the people who didn't work were pretty transparent and became management"

the story of civilization, in one (partial) sentence.

work is overrated he said...
worked 8 hours saturday
8 hours sunday
12 hours monday
8 hours tuesday
13 hours wednesday
8 hours thursday
4 hours friday...

- what a crock - and the worst sort of generalization

yeah, it's definitely bad when people, you know, "slack off" because they enjoy spending time with their families or otherwise living a balanced life. what's worse, there are people in the profession who value themselves to the point where they refuse to work for little income. shame on them. shame on all of them.