...Tenants had to sign new leases and one day, people came and cut down all the trees, ripping out the garden by its roots. Their new building manager told the tenants – low-income families mostly occupied the cottages – that pets were no longer allowed. One cottage housed a daycare center for the local kids; despite having all the requisite permits, the new landlord told them they had to go...
What an excellent group of people, here I thought the landlords back in my college town were the malevolent type...
I have a question that's not worthy of a new thread - probably . Has anyone used AirSox or any other fabric duct? We used them on a gym I worked on in Philly 12 years ago and all I remember is when they are deflated they look terrible, but I can't recall how they compare to metal spiral duct in 1. cost and 2. quietness? Does anyone know?
^ Used it once on a medical building because they asked for it…they only “deflated” when they weren’t there….in a house they would expand & contract while you are there (heat/ac cycling), but in most commercial applications, with fresh air requirements, air of some kind is always moving.
Noticed that they had a mega version at The Henry Ford Museum that you can see in photo below (upper right)…building predates AC. Big with the military for field hospitals…can’t help on cost, but any time you get out of the ordinary it gets harder to find an HVAC that is familiar…competitive bidding can be a problem for same reason.
Might help your acoustical issue if it's the same project...does help some with air movement, but the smaller stuff is pretty thin to absorb much...stuff I used was as thin as silk.
Thanks Carrera. I was thinking acoustically not about the fabric absorbing sound, but that the air movement itself would be quieter. The sox have small holes evenly distributed along the length, rather than a few hard openings where the air gets forced through quickly and noisily. Makes sense?
Do you think coloring 1/2 the pre-cast wall panels on a building would be less expensive via integral color in the mix or after the building is erected before they are sealed?
Going for a beton brut look. No paint or other cladding. Just concrete and storefront glass.
Arch, it’s all in the site logistics….if an exterior wall can be painted with a roller from the ground it would be less cost to site paint…if it involves moving scaffolding, climbing & masking (for spraying) the integral color by a landslide. (Don’t know anything about mixing paint with concrete though).
Years ago I did a lot of cheap apartments and we bought paint and gave it to the drywaller and he mixed it into his texture coat at no upcharge…cut out the painter completely, less than half cost…plus the time involved. Think it’s still done around here on residential drywall ceilings.
The greatest savings you can garner from building construction is eliminating whole trades...more trades mean more time plus more overhead & profit…remember that a trade has OH&P and the GC adds on his OH&P on top of that…name-that-tune-with-less-notes is a little known cost savings method that architects can control.
I honestly don't know from a cost perspective, though Carrera's advice seems right on. But if you want beton brut then don't paint.
Will Bruder's pre-cast concrete at the Phoenix Public Library is s gorgeous, and he got that texture by going to the pre-cast manufacturer and having guys smack the panels with a couple of 2x4s as they came down the manufacturing line. In concrete everything should be homogenous.
Thanks. Pretty consistent with what I was thinking.
Wasn't going to paint, if the color isn't integral to the concrete I would do like an acid etch dye or stain to color it... something that penetrates instead of sitting on top.
Another thing I can't seem to get a straight answer... does raw precast need sealer for exterior wall use? The moisture barrier occurs at the panel insulation (3" pre-cast, 3" foam insulation, 3" pre-cast) so it seems like it shouldn't.
Donna, Bruder's work is really great. Not too many good architects in the SW, but he definitely stands out. Rand Elliott too.
Precast concrete generally works as a mass wall assembly and wouldn't require anything to seal out water. The concrete itself will take care of that. Pay attention to the joints between panels and where it interfaces with openings, etc. (you want two-stage joints). Good info over here at BSC.
Arch, Agree with Everyday, did a lot of bush hammer projects years ago…might have site sealed them (no admixtures then), don’t remember…but I’ll guarantee you that if we did no one has since. Unlike block I just think poured concrete is too dense to absorb much. Also, the precast I’ve done always seemed to have a denser face surface than site poured for some reason. Think tilt-up is fun, a lot in my geo-location. Waterproofing concrete with admixtures is the most common approach…I guess it works…tried using admixture’s with CMU’s and they leak.
EI - thanks for the link on seals. Very informative. Fortunately there are no horizontal joints in these panels.
Carrera,
I'll probably check with pre-cast sub, but I agree - I see no reason the panels need to be sealed. If that's the case I'll likely go for integral color for where I want darker grey vs lighter grey concrete - eliminate all exterior finish work.
Donna,
Are you saying they beat on the forms before casting, or the panels themselves? Doesn't seem like hitting a concrete panel with a 2 x 4 would do much.
integral color is in the mix right? so you can have a dark panel and a light panel, but i don't ink you can have dark and light in the same panel.
the cost is based on the color. iirc, the white additive is kind of expensive. i think painting is typically cheaper than having an integral color, but painting requires maintenance and your painter will probably end up painting over the sealant joints which over time ends up looking bad. painting also ensures your color will be more consistent.
The way Bruder described it, the concrete is poured into forms that are flat (4-6" deep) and wide (6 x 12 or so feet) and come sort of rolling down the line flat. So a pair of guys stood on either side ....
Never mind. Here is a drawing. If it's not clear, that's WET concrete int he forms.
For the texture - I'd use form liners (the best stuff is from the EU). They add a little cost, but you can get some interesting textures. I guess smacking it with 2x4s works too.
Staining is definitely cheaper than integral color.
Donna - it's not a conveyor belt - it's a really really really long form (with separation between the panels), and the guys move down the line.
definitely no form liners - a little cost is still too much cost.
and i'm not really thinking of integral color with color admix, but maybe just specifying different aggregate or more/ less fly ash and grey vs white cement. I don't need much color difference, but I do need some.
Alternately maybe they can stain it before it leaves the fabrication facility so I don't have any exterior finish trades.
Donna, thanks for the sketch.
once we get into working with the precast sub i'll talk to them about something similar, although obviously not identical. One side is the form finish, the other they offer broom and hard trowel as standard finishes, so I imagine anything similar would be no added cost.
Precast subs can be hard to work with. We pushed ours a bit on one of our projects, and got some good results (the sound of your panel though makes me think you are not use the same factory).
Integral color can be an issue if you have to correct any site defects. On the project I worked on in Woodlawn (south side of Chicago) - there was some repair work and the color difference is quite noticeable. On another precast project in the former Cabrini Green area that LBBA designed, the precast was painted and created a nice monolithic finish.
Thanks, situationist! I have never visited a pre-cast plant so I really don't know how they work, the sketch was what was in my head when Bruder described it.
It doesn't make things any better, but genocides and massacres have been commonplace in those regions long before the West came to play... However, this idea that we, as humans, should be collectively outraged and distraught on any destruction brought on anyone in any place is unrealistic. Humanity doesn't operate in such ways, and if any time like now, in which we're more connected as a worldwide population than we've been in history, would you say we've become more united? More empathetic? More charitable? Everyone sees the suffering of humans around the world, more readily than ever. Both those stories you mention made it to national news in the west, my guess is the lack of continued coverage has more to do with limited access to western journalists in those regions, for obvious reasons, rather than some kind of selective apathy.
Some exciting news to share: I'm happy to announce that I've just accepted a position as a Project Architect at the Seattle office of Ankrom Moisan, a firm with deep roots in the Pacific Northwest, a strong portfolio of multifamily housing, hospitality, healthcare, and workplace design, and a reputation for being a great place to work. I start on April 20th, and it sounds like I'll be involved with a few high-rise multifamily projects as well as some workplace projects.
Now to prep for a long-distance move next month... Wish me luck!
I noticed some precast panels being put up on a construction site I pass on my commute. It looked like they had two different mix designs with integral colors on one panel ... well actually three mixes. Two mixes with integral colors were for the face of the panel, the back was just your typical gray. I knew that face mixes are used with GFRC panels, but for some reason I didn't put it together that they would be used in precast as well.
Anyone know if this is common practice rather than coloring the entire depth of a panel?
David, congrats and good luck with the move and the new job. Remember that even though its legal in Seattle, and you're starting on 4/20 ... it might not be a good idea to show up baked for your first day.
EI - I know the pre-cast sub we will most likely use does face mixes but have not yet teased out cost for that vs integral color in the entire panel (Dukane pre-cast)
David, congrats on the job - they are doing alot of hiring here in Chicago also. Sounds like they are growing all over.
Curtkram - check out some of the process images of Allied Works concrete projects. The Clyfford Still Museum was particularly impressive - full height (40+ feet) concrete pours in a single lift.
and david, yes I meant recruiting from Chicago. They are calling people like crazy and posting jobs on all the boards.
Ah... Yeah, the big cities all seem to be booming. Seattle and Portland are going apeshit. I hope it keeps up for a while before the next bust comes along.
arch, is there a good place to find their process images? my google-fu isn't doing much for me, and their website doesn't behave well on my computer. probably because i have flash disabled.
but in a side by side comparison - cloepfil vs ando in st louis - cloepfil came out on the losing side in a pretty significant way.
it was actually a good case study:
the pulitzer foundation by ando has beautiful can't-not-put-your-hands-on-it concrete, an intriguing quality of diffused light throughout, simple and effective use of water around the building, and a generally inviting feeling. despite over-eager docents who don't want you near anything.
allied architecture's contemporary art museum next door feels tough and unfriendly in a way that made me understand why non-architects are often repelled by modern. the design is fun, in a cerebral way, and all nicely executed, but decisions like the exterior chain mail, the address to the street, and many others just make it feel so much less welcoming than the (comparatively more private!) ando.
side-by-side, you can experience what can be warm, inviting, and more universally appreciated in modernism and what is just too hard.
TC is the place I can talk about Zaha while making it all about me, I guess. I'm so, so sad. Crushed. I've been sitting in front of my lunch for an hour not having taken a bite as I just don't have appetite for it and if you know me AT ALL you know that I don't usually ignore food.
She was a titan. So important, and I don't want to leave out the men but as a woman in the 80s going to architecture school to see her breaking through boundaries and looking fucking fabulous and unapologetic while doing it was a HUGE inspiration.
I loved, still love, her persona, the way she presented herself to the world, if not all of her work, and if not everything she said.
I feel a little lost. Like a major source of light has disappeared.
Thread Central
Rick, this is your best post ever on Archinect. Keep it up.
LOL archanonymous!
The white buffalo... I had to check out that cat house post after Donna mentioned it on here, I was expecting something else...
PROGRESS!
Excerpt from story [HERE]
...Tenants had to sign new leases and one day, people came and cut down all the trees, ripping out the garden by its roots. Their new building manager told the tenants – low-income families mostly occupied the cottages – that pets were no longer allowed. One cottage housed a daycare center for the local kids; despite having all the requisite permits, the new landlord told them they had to go...
What an excellent group of people, here I thought the landlords back in my college town were the malevolent type...
Mr Wiggin that's so depressing.
I have a question that's not worthy of a new thread - probably . Has anyone used AirSox or any other fabric duct? We used them on a gym I worked on in Philly 12 years ago and all I remember is when they are deflated they look terrible, but I can't recall how they compare to metal spiral duct in 1. cost and 2. quietness? Does anyone know?
^ Used it once on a medical building because they asked for it…they only “deflated” when they weren’t there….in a house they would expand & contract while you are there (heat/ac cycling), but in most commercial applications, with fresh air requirements, air of some kind is always moving.
Noticed that they had a mega version at The Henry Ford Museum that you can see in photo below (upper right)…building predates AC. Big with the military for field hospitals…can’t help on cost, but any time you get out of the ordinary it gets harder to find an HVAC that is familiar…competitive bidding can be a problem for same reason.
Might help your acoustical issue if it's the same project...does help some with air movement, but the smaller stuff is pretty thin to absorb much...stuff I used was as thin as silk.
Thanks Carrera. I was thinking acoustically not about the fabric absorbing sound, but that the air movement itself would be quieter. The sox have small holes evenly distributed along the length, rather than a few hard openings where the air gets forced through quickly and noisily. Makes sense?
^ Yes
Carrera, Donna,
Do you think coloring 1/2 the pre-cast wall panels on a building would be less expensive via integral color in the mix or after the building is erected before they are sealed?
Going for a beton brut look. No paint or other cladding. Just concrete and storefront glass.
Arch, it’s all in the site logistics….if an exterior wall can be painted with a roller from the ground it would be less cost to site paint…if it involves moving scaffolding, climbing & masking (for spraying) the integral color by a landslide. (Don’t know anything about mixing paint with concrete though).
Years ago I did a lot of cheap apartments and we bought paint and gave it to the drywaller and he mixed it into his texture coat at no upcharge…cut out the painter completely, less than half cost…plus the time involved. Think it’s still done around here on residential drywall ceilings.
The greatest savings you can garner from building construction is eliminating whole trades...more trades mean more time plus more overhead & profit…remember that a trade has OH&P and the GC adds on his OH&P on top of that…name-that-tune-with-less-notes is a little known cost savings method that architects can control.
I honestly don't know from a cost perspective, though Carrera's advice seems right on. But if you want beton brut then don't paint.
Will Bruder's pre-cast concrete at the Phoenix Public Library is s gorgeous, and he got that texture by going to the pre-cast manufacturer and having guys smack the panels with a couple of 2x4s as they came down the manufacturing line. In concrete everything should be homogenous.
Thanks. Pretty consistent with what I was thinking.
Wasn't going to paint, if the color isn't integral to the concrete I would do like an acid etch dye or stain to color it... something that penetrates instead of sitting on top.
Another thing I can't seem to get a straight answer... does raw precast need sealer for exterior wall use? The moisture barrier occurs at the panel insulation (3" pre-cast, 3" foam insulation, 3" pre-cast) so it seems like it shouldn't.
Donna, Bruder's work is really great. Not too many good architects in the SW, but he definitely stands out. Rand Elliott too.
Precast concrete generally works as a mass wall assembly and wouldn't require anything to seal out water. The concrete itself will take care of that. Pay attention to the joints between panels and where it interfaces with openings, etc. (you want two-stage joints). Good info over here at BSC.
EI, thanks for the link, good article.
Arch, Agree with Everyday, did a lot of bush hammer projects years ago…might have site sealed them (no admixtures then), don’t remember…but I’ll guarantee you that if we did no one has since. Unlike block I just think poured concrete is too dense to absorb much. Also, the precast I’ve done always seemed to have a denser face surface than site poured for some reason. Think tilt-up is fun, a lot in my geo-location. Waterproofing concrete with admixtures is the most common approach…I guess it works…tried using admixture’s with CMU’s and they leak.
EI - thanks for the link on seals. Very informative. Fortunately there are no horizontal joints in these panels.
Carrera,
I'll probably check with pre-cast sub, but I agree - I see no reason the panels need to be sealed. If that's the case I'll likely go for integral color for where I want darker grey vs lighter grey concrete - eliminate all exterior finish work.
Donna,
Are you saying they beat on the forms before casting, or the panels themselves? Doesn't seem like hitting a concrete panel with a 2 x 4 would do much.
integral color is in the mix right? so you can have a dark panel and a light panel, but i don't ink you can have dark and light in the same panel.
the cost is based on the color. iirc, the white additive is kind of expensive. i think painting is typically cheaper than having an integral color, but painting requires maintenance and your painter will probably end up painting over the sealant joints which over time ends up looking bad. painting also ensures your color will be more consistent.
The way Bruder described it, the concrete is poured into forms that are flat (4-6" deep) and wide (6 x 12 or so feet) and come sort of rolling down the line flat. So a pair of guys stood on either side ....
Never mind. Here is a drawing. If it's not clear, that's WET concrete int he forms.
Here are the panels, close up.
For the texture - I'd use form liners (the best stuff is from the EU). They add a little cost, but you can get some interesting textures. I guess smacking it with 2x4s works too.
Staining is definitely cheaper than integral color.
Donna - it's not a conveyor belt - it's a really really really long form (with separation between the panels), and the guys move down the line.
interesting Donna, thanks for posting
definitely no form liners - a little cost is still too much cost.
and i'm not really thinking of integral color with color admix, but maybe just specifying different aggregate or more/ less fly ash and grey vs white cement. I don't need much color difference, but I do need some.
Alternately maybe they can stain it before it leaves the fabrication facility so I don't have any exterior finish trades.
Donna, thanks for the sketch.
once we get into working with the precast sub i'll talk to them about something similar, although obviously not identical. One side is the form finish, the other they offer broom and hard trowel as standard finishes, so I imagine anything similar would be no added cost.
Integral color can be an issue if you have to correct any site defects. On the project I worked on in Woodlawn (south side of Chicago) - there was some repair work and the color difference is quite noticeable. On another precast project in the former Cabrini Green area that LBBA designed, the precast was painted and created a nice monolithic finish.
Thanks, situationist! I have never visited a pre-cast plant so I really don't know how they work, the sketch was what was in my head when Bruder described it.
I found the subs to be good at what they do, but hard to get info on the types of finish and connection techniques.
Happy Monday! I'll have some big news to share later in the week.
^ because non-white folks getting blown-up does not make the same splash or cause idiot highschool kids to post "payer" messages on the facebooks.
Damn stupid superstitions.
What Non Seq said. It's frustrating out here for a humanist.
It doesn't make things any better, but genocides and massacres have been commonplace in those regions long before the West came to play... However, this idea that we, as humans, should be collectively outraged and distraught on any destruction brought on anyone in any place is unrealistic. Humanity doesn't operate in such ways, and if any time like now, in which we're more connected as a worldwide population than we've been in history, would you say we've become more united? More empathetic? More charitable? Everyone sees the suffering of humans around the world, more readily than ever. Both those stories you mention made it to national news in the west, my guess is the lack of continued coverage has more to do with limited access to western journalists in those regions, for obvious reasons, rather than some kind of selective apathy.
^I've seen more news coverage when that american tourist in North Korea stole that poster than both the Iraq and Pakistan bombing stories.
The common denominator then being Americans were involved in these incidents. That kid in NK was an idiot...
Some exciting news to share: I'm happy to announce that I've just accepted a position as a Project Architect at the Seattle office of Ankrom Moisan, a firm with deep roots in the Pacific Northwest, a strong portfolio of multifamily housing, hospitality, healthcare, and workplace design, and a reputation for being a great place to work. I start on April 20th, and it sounds like I'll be involved with a few high-rise multifamily projects as well as some workplace projects.
Now to prep for a long-distance move next month... Wish me luck!
I noticed some precast panels being put up on a construction site I pass on my commute. It looked like they had two different mix designs with integral colors on one panel ... well actually three mixes. Two mixes with integral colors were for the face of the panel, the back was just your typical gray. I knew that face mixes are used with GFRC panels, but for some reason I didn't put it together that they would be used in precast as well.
Anyone know if this is common practice rather than coloring the entire depth of a panel?
David, congrats and good luck with the move and the new job. Remember that even though its legal in Seattle, and you're starting on 4/20 ... it might not be a good idea to show up baked for your first day.
Ugh spammers. Jeez. Fuck off, cellina.
Woot David. Sounds fun.
EI, it is fairly common in highway projects around here, no need to color the back that's against dirt. spot on with the 4/20 advice.
EI - I know the pre-cast sub we will most likely use does face mixes but have not yet teased out cost for that vs integral color in the entire panel (Dukane pre-cast)
David, congrats on the job - they are doing alot of hiring here in Chicago also. Sounds like they are growing all over.
Smoke a fatty on the way to work!
Thanks, everybody... AMA doesn't have a Chicago office, so you may be thinking of another firm, archanonymous.
Not quite the same, but the convo made me think of the Desert Cultural Center, in Osoyoos, BC.
Concrete wall is cast on site, multiple layers, all with thru-body coloring. Looks great in picture and IRL.
that looks amazing jerome. so do they need about 10 cement trucks pouring concrete at the same time? i'd love to see construction photos of the pour.
Jerome, that is reminiscent of this project, which was rammed earth. Lots of portland cement in the mix, but still rammed earth.
Curtkram - check out some of the process images of Allied Works concrete projects. The Clyfford Still Museum was particularly impressive - full height (40+ feet) concrete pours in a single lift.
and david, yes I meant recruiting from Chicago. They are calling people like crazy and posting jobs on all the boards.
Ah... Yeah, the big cities all seem to be booming. Seattle and Portland are going apeshit. I hope it keeps up for a while before the next bust comes along.
arch, is there a good place to find their process images? my google-fu isn't doing much for me, and their website doesn't behave well on my computer. probably because i have flash disabled.
Honestly, even Indianapolis is going gangbusters right now. I can't even keep track of how many projects are going on.
curt,
there is a little bit of info here.
the museum itself has a small room dedicated to the architecture. Definitely worth a visit if you are ever in Denver. Cloepfil is one of my favorites.
I got to see the Maryhill installation they did when I was 17 and contemplating architecture school vs engineering and it swayed me to architecture.
i WAS a fan of cloepfil. maybe still am.
but in a side by side comparison - cloepfil vs ando in st louis - cloepfil came out on the losing side in a pretty significant way.
it was actually a good case study:
the pulitzer foundation by ando has beautiful can't-not-put-your-hands-on-it concrete, an intriguing quality of diffused light throughout, simple and effective use of water around the building, and a generally inviting feeling. despite over-eager docents who don't want you near anything.
allied architecture's contemporary art museum next door feels tough and unfriendly in a way that made me understand why non-architects are often repelled by modern. the design is fun, in a cerebral way, and all nicely executed, but decisions like the exterior chain mail, the address to the street, and many others just make it feel so much less welcoming than the (comparatively more private!) ando.
side-by-side, you can experience what can be warm, inviting, and more universally appreciated in modernism and what is just too hard.
TC is the place I can talk about Zaha while making it all about me, I guess. I'm so, so sad. Crushed. I've been sitting in front of my lunch for an hour not having taken a bite as I just don't have appetite for it and if you know me AT ALL you know that I don't usually ignore food.
She was a titan. So important, and I don't want to leave out the men but as a woman in the 80s going to architecture school to see her breaking through boundaries and looking fucking fabulous and unapologetic while doing it was a HUGE inspiration.
I loved, still love, her persona, the way she presented herself to the world, if not all of her work, and if not everything she said.
I feel a little lost. Like a major source of light has disappeared.
I feel ya Donna. I'm speechless.
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