^ Think that thread had lawsuit written all over it, couldn’t look at it.
Always dreamt of an umbrella corporation for small fry’s….spending a lot of time with my “corporate doctor” lately….a big hospital in my town went corporate and absorbed all the local doctors…they all work in independent group practices like they did before, but they now are all on salary with perks, power & protection. With over 60% of architects in practices of 5 or less it’s worthy of thought.
Apr 13, 16 10:15 pm ·
·
Donna,
Did you guys notice that horrid thread with an architect's name in the title is gone? I'm happy to see it go.
I often think about how much better off architects might be if their business was more consolidated. It's a big problem that architects are often the smallest entity in the process: clients, contractors, software vendors, landlords: all bigger than the architect. Often even the engineering consultants.
I really do believe the future of architecture in the US is going to move towards a model where a limited number of large undifferentiated practices do all the bread-butter work and build up repeatable expertise in understanding building systems and managing construction, while a smaller group of freelance / contract design firms take on the early phase design and image-making for projects where cleverness or special planning knowledge matter.
It will stretch the relevance of current licensing laws even further, as practice becomes more divided between conceptual designing and implementation / oversight. The model of each architect as an all-in-one generalist is already less common in practice than the IDP process assumes, and is a major reason for the challenge young architects face in accumulating experience. It will get harder - eventually maybe there will be a more decisive distinction.
Millender, that model may well be the future for the small practitioner... one of the original principles of SHoP spinoff with just that very model... the talent today in the smallest of firms is astounding, but what's the long game for these firms... surely the majority don't seek to remain doing barns & chapels for the duration.... the phenomenon puzzles me, think your model may be the answer.... that is: don't grow - collaborate.
I agree with you that in the future you will see more big name architectural companies doing the majority of the work load, while more specialized boutique companies focus on specialties that they do best.
I think that implication also means that licensure is pretty much irreverent to the common man, mostly b/c they have set up licensure as an obstacle course that drains you mentally and monetarily. Once you factor in that most structures constructed in the future will be done by larger but fewer and fewer companies, which has been the path we have been on for the past 30 years, it just make sense to a sensible person that becoming a licensed architect is really just not worth the stress/time/money in return for the license. Sadly, the colleges and even practicing architects prey upon the idea of this zeitgeist that architects are magnanimous beings, and that anyone can become one with a degree and a license.
Socially, psychologically & economically wise the architecture industry is rather interesting to study, but to partake in it as a career just felt wrong, and a lot like how I would imagine being a slave feels like.
Thanks Carrera. I opened that 'news article' and got as far as, "This post is brought to you by BQE ArchiOffice," before I closed it.
Glad Archinect puts in the disclaimer, but still disappointing it masquerades sponsored content as news items. Call it a feature and I wouldn't care at all. I might even read it because I would know what to expect when I open it.
Thanks curtkram. They reference that quote and link to the AIA article in the BQE article too in the second paragraph ... "According to Kermit Baker, chief economist at The American Institute of Architects, 63 percent of all AIA member-owned architecture firms have five or fewer employees."
Apr 14, 16 1:50 pm ·
·
AIA article is probably the original source as they had the stats teams to collect this kind of data.
It should be noted that there is a margin of error and firms sizes fluctuates. I would argue the numbers are now probably closer to 55%-60% since 2012 (assuming the data was collected sometime in 2012 vs being presented in 2013). I maybe underestimating growth so the 55%-60% is a guess.
This is probably because of firms adding additional employees to match up with the demand in 2013-present. Some firms as of 2012 were firms of 6 to 15 or so in 2004 but when the recession hit, they reduced staff or laid off all employees with only the owner-partners remaining.
cuz i got time i guess. btw, i got a new job too! it's here though, so no moving for me. hopefully less archinecting.
there is a podcast with your name on it, which you don't appear to be part of.
i have no idea why slim and fat would be used in the same context like that. could be sarcastic like sneaky says. might be regional too.
Apr 14, 16 5:39 pm ·
·
JeromeS,
AIA does regular surveys as it is along with its independent arm but still really AIA all behind it.... NCARB. You know the licensing boards for architecture is often dominated by AIA architects who are the architect members. That's off on a tangent....
It is very documented that when the housing market crashed in '07 or '08 and the recession came into full swing, many of the firms had to downsize their staff. A number of those before the recession were over 5 people in size. I'm not saying they were huge. They may have been 6 or 7 people but 6 or 7 means they would be part of the next size category up. The recession caused a drop in size of these firms.
In 2013, any survey data would have took about a year or so to collect and analyze. As these things aren't done in 'warp speed scotty' rate when it comes to AIA. Use AIA's past precedence and their data is about a year or two behind the survey release date which was released in 2013. So the data is probably from 2011 or 2012. Lets assume they got this data when they did the big survey deal in conjunction with NCARB in their collaborated efforts. You know they are joined at the hip in everything they do. They're 'partners in crime'. (metaphorically not to be taken literally)
They got this data around that time. We should assume with the recovery, albeit slow on average while in some areas are strong recovery while in others is not so much, in any case, with recovery we should assume that more demand would require restaffing.
I'm estimating the percentile of firms of 5 or less is probably lower than it was in the recession when the data was collected. Take the statistics with a little grain of salt as it is probably a little dated and behind.
That's what I'm suggesting. My guess is its probably between 55%-60% but it could be closer to 50%-55%. It is hard to estimate without new data collecting.
I noticed the podcast and started listening to it to see if it was about me too, i haven't finish it but so far no such luck! I like to think it is named after me, but I think we are both named after the same such utterance, which is googleable. and congrats on the job.
Just for funsies while I'm waiting for an email ...
JeromeS,
AIA does regular surveys as it is along with its independent arm but still really AIA all behind it.... NCARB. You know the licensing boards for architecture is often dominated by AIA architects who are the architect members. That's off on a tangent.... {{then why not delete the paragraph? This is why at best we all just skim your posts. Most probably don't even read them at all}}
It is very documented that when the housing market crashed in '07 or '08 and the recession came into full swing, many of the firms had to downsize their staff {{citation needed}}. A number of those before the recession were over 5 people in size {{citation needed}}. I'm not saying they were huge. They may have been 6 or 7 people but 6 or 7 means they would be part of the next size category up {{citation needed}}. The recession caused a drop in size of these firms {{citation needed}}.
In 2013, any survey data would have took about a year or so to collect and analyze {{speculation, not to mention it was published in 2014 so it could be from 2013}}. As these things aren't done in 'warp speed scotty' rate when it comes to AIA {{speculation}}. Use AIA's past precedence {{citation needed}} and their data is about a year or two behind the survey release date which was released in 2013 {{citation needed}}. So the data is probably from 2011 or 2012 {{speculation}}. Lets assume they got this data when they did the big survey deal in conjunction with NCARB in their collaborated efforts {{why assume this when you could buy the report and fingure it out for reals?}}. You know they are joined at the hip in everything they do {{speculation}}. They're 'partners in crime'. (metaphorically not to be taken literally) {{metaphorically meaning what exactly?}}
They got this data around that time {{citation needed}}. We should assume with the recovery, albeit slow on average while in some areas are strong recovery while in others is not so much, in any case, with recovery we should assume that more demand would require restaffing {{speculation}}.
I'm estimating the percentile of firms of 5 or less is probably lower than it was in the recession when the data was collected {{based on what? speculation}}. Take the statistics with a little grain of salt as it is probably a little dated and behind {{whose statistics, your's or the AIA's?}}.
That's what I'm suggesting. My guess is its probably between 55%-60% but it could be closer to 50%-55%. It is hard to estimate without new data collecting {{why not contact Kermit Baker and find out when they will be collecting new data?}}.
Apr 14, 16 6:36 pm ·
·
E_I,
Want cited sources: Every regular on this forum that runs a business or was laid off. Every regular on AREForum, Residential Architect forum on LinkedIn (when it was there), and so on. Every post by people being laid off, the entire web, etc.
You do realize that those people who were laid off, set up their own sole-proprietorship during that time by the act of taking on projects with clients would add to the percentage of firms of 5 or less. When a number of them flopped (failed) and they got hired with a job means they are no longer in business of their own because they are busy working as an employee full-time.
Full-time in Architecture is typically 40+ hours a week.
If they are working full-time, they aren't doing a lot if any side work.
AIA did the base numbers. I'm estimating with all the new hiring in the past 2 years or so, that the number of small firms will drop off some. Lets remember, some of them flopped. Some left the profession. Some retired or passed on. All these dynamics will change the numbers some. How accurate the AIA statistics is hard to know.
Lets also remember there was a swell of folks who were doing on and off projects while collecting unemployment. Given the whirlwind of dynamics, I think it is hard to say exactly the numbers.
I'm estimating (a fucking guess based on seeing all the job postings, new hires at a number of firms, and comments here and on other forums) that with new hires means that there will be fewer unemployed architects running their own firms because they got hired at a firm for a more stable income being an example. Call it a judgment call. I just given you a large number of factors that has all been happening during the last 4-5 years.
I have looked at firms in Portland and Seattle and other places with new job posts and new hires happening. Don't you think that is going to effect the number of firms that are 1-5 people?
Once they go to 6 or more people, they are no longer calculated in the 5 or less category. They move into the next category.
Yes, take my own guesstimate with a grain of salt. Also take the AIA's as their data is probably about 5 years old or so.
If you haven't noticed, there has been all these hiring since then.
Yeah - emailed it to all my architecture friends...
Apr 15, 16 11:45 am ·
·
Make sure to save that image for all prosperity. You just might even get away with that on the desktop background in the office. It's art........ of lighting.
Thread Central
^ Think that thread had lawsuit written all over it, couldn’t look at it.
Always dreamt of an umbrella corporation for small fry’s….spending a lot of time with my “corporate doctor” lately….a big hospital in my town went corporate and absorbed all the local doctors…they all work in independent group practices like they did before, but they now are all on salary with perks, power & protection. With over 60% of architects in practices of 5 or less it’s worthy of thought.
Donna,
Did you guys notice that horrid thread with an architect's name in the title is gone? I'm happy to see it go.
Yep. That's good.
Carrera,
I often think about how much better off architects might be if their business was more consolidated. It's a big problem that architects are often the smallest entity in the process: clients, contractors, software vendors, landlords: all bigger than the architect. Often even the engineering consultants.
I really do believe the future of architecture in the US is going to move towards a model where a limited number of large undifferentiated practices do all the bread-butter work and build up repeatable expertise in understanding building systems and managing construction, while a smaller group of freelance / contract design firms take on the early phase design and image-making for projects where cleverness or special planning knowledge matter.
It will stretch the relevance of current licensing laws even further, as practice becomes more divided between conceptual designing and implementation / oversight. The model of each architect as an all-in-one generalist is already less common in practice than the IDP process assumes, and is a major reason for the challenge young architects face in accumulating experience. It will get harder - eventually maybe there will be a more decisive distinction.
Millender, that model may well be the future for the small practitioner... one of the original principles of SHoP spinoff with just that very model... the talent today in the smallest of firms is astounding, but what's the long game for these firms... surely the majority don't seek to remain doing barns & chapels for the duration.... the phenomenon puzzles me, think your model may be the answer.... that is: don't grow - collaborate.
Where would one find a source for this type of information? I know I've seen stats like this before, I'm just blanking on where and who published it.
^ Picked it up under "Big Risk for Bigger Reward in Small Architecture Firms" in Archinect News...the number was actually 63%
Good post midlander!
I agree with you that in the future you will see more big name architectural companies doing the majority of the work load, while more specialized boutique companies focus on specialties that they do best.
I think that implication also means that licensure is pretty much irreverent to the common man, mostly b/c they have set up licensure as an obstacle course that drains you mentally and monetarily. Once you factor in that most structures constructed in the future will be done by larger but fewer and fewer companies, which has been the path we have been on for the past 30 years, it just make sense to a sensible person that becoming a licensed architect is really just not worth the stress/time/money in return for the license. Sadly, the colleges and even practicing architects prey upon the idea of this zeitgeist that architects are magnanimous beings, and that anyone can become one with a degree and a license.
Socially, psychologically & economically wise the architecture industry is rather interesting to study, but to partake in it as a career just felt wrong, and a lot like how I would imagine being a slave feels like.
"a lot like how I would imagine being a slave feels like."
Wut?
Modern slavery is live and well....
Thanks Carrera. I opened that 'news article' and got as far as, "This post is brought to you by BQE ArchiOffice," before I closed it.
Glad Archinect puts in the disclaimer, but still disappointing it masquerades sponsored content as news items. Call it a feature and I wouldn't care at all. I might even read it because I would know what to expect when I open it.
here's some google-fu
As of 2013, 63 percent of all AIA member–owned architecture firms had fewer than five employees.
http://www.aia.org/practicing/AIAB104583
smart people, do fat chance and slim chance mean the same thing?
yes
Thanks curtkram. They reference that quote and link to the AIA article in the BQE article too in the second paragraph ... "According to Kermit Baker, chief economist at The American Institute of Architects, 63 percent of all AIA member-owned architecture firms have five or fewer employees."
AIA article is probably the original source as they had the stats teams to collect this kind of data.
It should be noted that there is a margin of error and firms sizes fluctuates. I would argue the numbers are now probably closer to 55%-60% since 2012 (assuming the data was collected sometime in 2012 vs being presented in 2013). I maybe underestimating growth so the 55%-60% is a guess.
This is probably because of firms adding additional employees to match up with the demand in 2013-present. Some firms as of 2012 were firms of 6 to 15 or so in 2004 but when the recession hit, they reduced staff or laid off all employees with only the owner-partners remaining.
Assuming people actually reported anything to the AIA.
I wouldn't.
^^ Is that based on your local experience with ChadbourneDoss and Tom Potter? Or did you just pull it completely from your cornhole?
curt, how did I know you'd be the one to answer. So is there a nuanced difference?
One's sarcastic, the other is not.
cuz i got time i guess. btw, i got a new job too! it's here though, so no moving for me. hopefully less archinecting.
there is a podcast with your name on it, which you don't appear to be part of.
i have no idea why slim and fat would be used in the same context like that. could be sarcastic like sneaky says. might be regional too.
JeromeS,
AIA does regular surveys as it is along with its independent arm but still really AIA all behind it.... NCARB. You know the licensing boards for architecture is often dominated by AIA architects who are the architect members. That's off on a tangent....
It is very documented that when the housing market crashed in '07 or '08 and the recession came into full swing, many of the firms had to downsize their staff. A number of those before the recession were over 5 people in size. I'm not saying they were huge. They may have been 6 or 7 people but 6 or 7 means they would be part of the next size category up. The recession caused a drop in size of these firms.
In 2013, any survey data would have took about a year or so to collect and analyze. As these things aren't done in 'warp speed scotty' rate when it comes to AIA. Use AIA's past precedence and their data is about a year or two behind the survey release date which was released in 2013. So the data is probably from 2011 or 2012. Lets assume they got this data when they did the big survey deal in conjunction with NCARB in their collaborated efforts. You know they are joined at the hip in everything they do. They're 'partners in crime'. (metaphorically not to be taken literally)
They got this data around that time. We should assume with the recovery, albeit slow on average while in some areas are strong recovery while in others is not so much, in any case, with recovery we should assume that more demand would require restaffing.
I'm estimating the percentile of firms of 5 or less is probably lower than it was in the recession when the data was collected. Take the statistics with a little grain of salt as it is probably a little dated and behind.
That's what I'm suggesting. My guess is its probably between 55%-60% but it could be closer to 50%-55%. It is hard to estimate without new data collecting.
I noticed the podcast and started listening to it to see if it was about me too, i haven't finish it but so far no such luck! I like to think it is named after me, but I think we are both named after the same such utterance, which is googleable. and congrats on the job.
Or here, if it wasn't mentioned in the podcast.
"The trouble with Oakland is that when you get there, there isn't any there there."
Gertrude Stein
US author in France (1874 - 1946)
Just for funsies while I'm waiting for an email ...
JeromeS,
AIA does regular surveys as it is along with its independent arm but still really AIA all behind it.... NCARB. You know the licensing boards for architecture is often dominated by AIA architects who are the architect members. That's off on a tangent.... {{then why not delete the paragraph? This is why at best we all just skim your posts. Most probably don't even read them at all}}
It is very documented that when the housing market crashed in '07 or '08 and the recession came into full swing, many of the firms had to downsize their staff {{citation needed}}. A number of those before the recession were over 5 people in size {{citation needed}}. I'm not saying they were huge. They may have been 6 or 7 people but 6 or 7 means they would be part of the next size category up {{citation needed}}. The recession caused a drop in size of these firms {{citation needed}}.
In 2013, any survey data would have took about a year or so to collect and analyze {{speculation, not to mention it was published in 2014 so it could be from 2013}}. As these things aren't done in 'warp speed scotty' rate when it comes to AIA {{speculation}}. Use AIA's past precedence {{citation needed}} and their data is about a year or two behind the survey release date which was released in 2013 {{citation needed}}. So the data is probably from 2011 or 2012 {{speculation}}. Lets assume they got this data when they did the big survey deal in conjunction with NCARB in their collaborated efforts {{why assume this when you could buy the report and fingure it out for reals?}}. You know they are joined at the hip in everything they do {{speculation}}. They're 'partners in crime'. (metaphorically not to be taken literally) {{metaphorically meaning what exactly?}}
They got this data around that time {{citation needed}}. We should assume with the recovery, albeit slow on average while in some areas are strong recovery while in others is not so much, in any case, with recovery we should assume that more demand would require restaffing {{speculation}}.
I'm estimating the percentile of firms of 5 or less is probably lower than it was in the recession when the data was collected {{based on what? speculation}}. Take the statistics with a little grain of salt as it is probably a little dated and behind {{whose statistics, your's or the AIA's?}}.
That's what I'm suggesting. My guess is its probably between 55%-60% but it could be closer to 50%-55%. It is hard to estimate without new data collecting {{why not contact Kermit Baker and find out when they will be collecting new data?}}.
E_I,
Want cited sources: Every regular on this forum that runs a business or was laid off. Every regular on AREForum, Residential Architect forum on LinkedIn (when it was there), and so on. Every post by people being laid off, the entire web, etc.
You do realize that those people who were laid off, set up their own sole-proprietorship during that time by the act of taking on projects with clients would add to the percentage of firms of 5 or less. When a number of them flopped (failed) and they got hired with a job means they are no longer in business of their own because they are busy working as an employee full-time.
Full-time in Architecture is typically 40+ hours a week.
If they are working full-time, they aren't doing a lot if any side work.
AIA did the base numbers. I'm estimating with all the new hiring in the past 2 years or so, that the number of small firms will drop off some. Lets remember, some of them flopped. Some left the profession. Some retired or passed on. All these dynamics will change the numbers some. How accurate the AIA statistics is hard to know.
Lets also remember there was a swell of folks who were doing on and off projects while collecting unemployment. Given the whirlwind of dynamics, I think it is hard to say exactly the numbers.
I'm estimating (a fucking guess based on seeing all the job postings, new hires at a number of firms, and comments here and on other forums) that with new hires means that there will be fewer unemployed architects running their own firms because they got hired at a firm for a more stable income being an example. Call it a judgment call. I just given you a large number of factors that has all been happening during the last 4-5 years.
I have looked at firms in Portland and Seattle and other places with new job posts and new hires happening. Don't you think that is going to effect the number of firms that are 1-5 people?
Once they go to 6 or more people, they are no longer calculated in the 5 or less category. They move into the next category.
Yes, take my own guesstimate with a grain of salt. Also take the AIA's as their data is probably about 5 years old or so.
If you haven't noticed, there has been all these hiring since then.
"Once they go to 6 or more people, they are no longer calculated in the 5 or less category."
Do go on...
I've been spending the past two days trying to solve the parking issue on a project I'm working on. I think I've finally found the solution.
When you need to park two cars. Two compactors.
Sorry jla-x,
Not going there.
A deviation or deviant side track:
We've talked about architecture that looks like a male part. Now, the ethereal sexuality of lighting. LOL!
Ha ha ha. Good one Rick.
RWCB-PBD- That was your greatest post ever. So much so that I'm not going to jump on with Everyday's edit of your andecdotal evidence.
no one has ever complained about boobs. 80085
awesome!
Ouch that image fucking hurts.
It hurts?
Tintt, maybe those suspended lights bring back painful tassel memories for Donna.
Kudos Richard. That photo just made my morning.
Happy Friday TC.
Yeah - emailed it to all my architecture friends...
Make sure to save that image for all prosperity. You just might even get away with that on the desktop background in the office. It's art........ of lighting.
I kept a copy of that image.
Boobs = prosperity for a select few only...
Not tassels, Non Seq. A friend described to me what it felt like to have both her nipples pierced and I got very queasy. Ouch.
Carrera, I sent you an email a few days ago, did you see it?
Sorry, saw it now that you mention it got distracted, will have time tomorrow.Thanks for reminding me.
/\ been wondering same thing.
didn't he say he was done with archinect until RB stops with his shit?
maybe Balkins was hired to get rid of Miles? Balkins is the closest human to being a bot.
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