Like SHoP, but if this stuff gets any taller all the terrorist will need is matches.
Sep 22, 15 12:29 pm ·
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Actually, if they overbuild it, that is use CLT that is larger than required as well as Ipe boards 4" thick wrapping around the wall surfaces as well as Ipe joists. Add to that a fire suppression system with redundancy water supply and distribution as maybe needed, the fire suppression should extinguish fire before any critical issue.
The key is extinguishing the fire before it goes out of control. What is also to be noted is large timber beams are known to self-extinguish itself due to the charring which inhibits continuous burning as long. A trick maybe under control is to pre-char the surface of wood and so as to inhibit catching on fire or something. Additional, a structure can be structurally made of wood provide it is encapsulated in a fire-resistant barrier. Similarly, we did this with steel. Where wood may burn, steel would melt. So historically, we encapsulate the columns in a fire resistant barrier such as 6" CMU blocks surrounding the CLT columns for example.
There are solutions but this stuff would have to be fire rated and with fire suppression.
wood rots faster than steel. especially if you're spraying fire sprinklers on it.
you could look at the maintenance of some of the ancient wood japanese shrines, like Ise Grand, as a way of preserving the wood. not sure it's worth the trouble.
I like scotch, but not bourbon. My husband likes TX bourbon. I admit that it smells delicious, but still tastes like bourbon. Yuck.
Sep 22, 15 1:44 pm ·
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A structure like that should have been built in the Astoria, Oregon coastal area as it rains far more than enough to worry too much about fire igniting the wood. LOL.
Actually, given they are using engineered beam and column structure, it is very likely to be a low risk to fire with suppression system. This is in the Portland, Oregon community and it is by far from being the tallest building in the area. Oregon building codes would require a fire sprinkler system installed, if I recall it correctly. There would be 1 hour fire rating between the units would be my reasoned assumption. The exposed wood is probably fire treated. They don't look like Ipe so it is probably treated with a fire resistant coating. In addition, there can be further methods to prevent or minimize fire.
Structurally, it would perform equivalent to the steel framed construction as the large dimension lumber would have charring that would occur along with a sprinkler system to suppress a fire which you would do need even in a steel frame structure to prevent the steel from melting by extinguishing the fire before the steel loses its strength.
On the outside exterior, this is probably a low risk deal provide they coated it with fire resistance and exterior weather resistance.
Among the things that can minimize fire issue is the facilities equipped with ovens and other equipment in the place that doesn't have an open flame such as conduction cooktops and other technologies like radiant heating and in-line water heating. Minimize risks so a manageable level. Given the building is only 10 stories in a neighborhood of other buildings of comparable building height already. Not likely a mainstream terrorist target.
If I was designing such a structure, the building would probably have some sort of non-combustible face brick work and such that it would be unlikely to be affected some idiot walking along flicking a lit cigarette. There are ways to minimize issues.
As long as the risks are mitigated sufficiently, it should be fine. Steel may not combust but under heat of fire at melting temperature, it weakens and can collapse. Fire that can consume large timber will heat steel up to point where it would soften and sag and even melt.
For stud work, wood studs and the light steel C channel studs will perform similar in a fire. One burns. The other melts and warps. Either way, serious life threatening risks to occupants.
Wood will rot if you constantly spray but if you let moisture ventilate out, it will be fine. You aren't going to be running the sprinklers all the time. You sprinkler in an emergency.
Some species of wood is very durable after all, wood will stay preserved even after 50 to 100+ years when completely submerge. After all, many of the wood comes from trees that grows in this wet and mossy environment like found in western Oregon and Washington.
Wood is renewable.
It comes from trees that are grown. Steel comes from iron ore which is pretty much the same quantity more or less as there was millions of years ago as there is today. It isn't exactly renewable and it takes a long time for fresh iron ore to come up from the insides of the earth in sufficient quantity to build buildings and structures. We are using iron ore that are mostly from geological activity from million or more years ago.
For every tree consumed, we can plant 1 or more trees that will become massive trees in 600 years. Energy required to make it into building components is far less than to make iron ore from rock into a steel beam.
If we need to replace a wood column or beam, it can be replaced with minimal energy and carbon footprint. Less than steel or concrete.
My point is there are benefits. Our current and biggest Wood rot problem comes from idiots making regulations who doesn't know jack shit about wood and how it works or Design professionals who don't know a damn thing about wood and causes the conditions for wood rot to occur. A little bit of moisture isn't a problem on wood.
My house, although, over 130 years old with virtually all of its structural framing being 140 years old. Some stuff being only 100 or so years old. That isn't bad at all for wood.
I've been thinking about tall wood buildings for a few years now. It's an excellent idea, but seems to be completely not allowed by code. I'm curious how SHOP would get around that "minor" detail.
Go walk thru Paul Revere's house, 250 years old, there isn't anything square, level or plumb about it. The outside looks ok but...
Wood buildings can not have the service life that masonry and steel building do.
Sep 22, 15 3:08 pm ·
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JeromeS,
What is the service life of buildings today?
30 years? Maybe 50 years.
Paul Revere's house was probably built before there was modern levels. In addition, there is 250 years of settlement with stone masonry foundation and shallow foundations. It is unclear whether there was continuous footing or if it is isolated pads under mortared stone masonry stem wall.
250 years of settlement issues and you can have the same issues with steel buildings as well as masonry. They didn't necessarily account for differential settlement back then. 250 years later? Hell, who knows what issues were caused by subway tunnels over the years.
Add to the fact is that it was built before modern levels and possibly built by Paul Revere and friends. Lets remember the timber were probably cut by ax and cleaned up by a few other tools by a craftsman. However, they didn't have 19th century industrial age milled lumber or modern saws. In addition, sub-mm level perfection probably wasn't a major concern at the time. It was more important that it got built during the permissible weather than perfectly squared and plumbed walls. Then even if was at the time it was built, there was 250 years of settlement... differential? Possible effects caused by the neighboring building causing settlement issues over the years. It was crafted and built also on a somewhat sloping ground.
In this day and age, we can get a lot tighter precision with far more squared & plumbed walls.
What is the intended service life of the 10 story condo? It is clearly possible to have 250 year service life with the glulam and/or CLT structural elements.
...sigh... Engineered lumber does NOT have a 250 year service life!
Sep 22, 15 4:10 pm ·
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gruen,
Yeah... I agree.
Looking at the IBC (OSSC doesn't change this in any way)
We are looking at Type IV or V construction type.
That leaves us with 4 to 5 stories in height under that classification. I don't know how the hell they will be able to get 10 stories. It needs to be classified as Type I-A or I-B.
This means, there needs to be a 2-hr rated walls, structural frames, ceiling/floor separation at the least as well as 1-hr Ceiling/Roof assembly. Heavy Timber (Glulam/CLT) can give you a 1 hr rating rating from my understanding. I would almost certainly need to encapsulate the Timber with at least a 1-hr rated encapsulation like two layers of gypsum wall-board, brick masonry (veneer), etc.
I don't know how they will get to passing code, though.
Sep 22, 15 4:10 pm ·
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JeromeS,
Actually it can if you use an oversized glulam beams. The resin used to bind the laminates are going to last a very long time... possibly longer than the wood pieces. The laminates are often hardwood species and they can last 200+ years if the conditions are appropriate. They can last 1000 years with proper maintenance and not allow it to rot.
If you engineer to the minimum, then degradation may cause your service life to reduce at the rate of degradation. Glulams aren't going to degradate all that much faster than a solid hewn timber of the same size. Usually, glulams are stronger than an equivalent size solid hewn wood beam.
If the size of the glulam was bigger than it needed to be to support the design load with columns that are bigger than it needs to be... in other words... over built. It would have a 250 year service life. Structures that perform well over time tends to be structures that are overbuilt. The reason is that you have more structure than minimum. You have more structure for which degradation can occur without reducing its effective strength below that of the design load with basic code required safety standards. Wood may have rot, damages, nicks, and other wear & tear over its life. If it is sufficiently designed and built, the structure will endure. This also includes your fastening as well. If you normally need 3/8" grade 8 bolts but instead use 5/8" grade 8 bolts, the bolts will be stronger.
The resin that binds the glulam will probably last 1000+ years.
I'm talking about real service life. We simply don't have glulams that have been tested to last 250 years because the glulam that we are using in this day and age was only invented in the 19th century. One standing example goes back to 1866 approaching 150 years.
The resins they use are extremely high strength bonding that is stronger than the natural bonding of wood fibers as they are.
Sep 22, 15 4:34 pm ·
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Glulam could have a functional service life of well over 250 years.
without proper maintenance, things can fall apart pretty easy. shop might be among the best people to design a wood structure that won't have unseen elements rotting or falling apart, but ultimately a tall wood building would have less margin of error for problems caused by lack of maintenance than a steel building would have. i would be more concerned in wood construction with a connection failing because nobody saw it go to shit than i would be with fire.
rebuilding the building every 20 years as a form of maintenance is probably more that what's strictly required, but it is an example of the effectiveness of regular maintenance. :)
Sep 22, 15 4:57 pm ·
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curtkram,
Sure. That can be a problem for any structure.
A large part comes down to design. If you got water intrusion problem, it is a problem for steel as it is for wood. This is why those light steel studs are galvanized. If you use stainless steel or Aluminum then perhaps it wouldn't be a problem. However, melting point.
If you use concrete, you have the mass weight of it but sure, it probably will last with extreme endurance but it isn't always suitable to build a highrise out of concrete on a site.
In addition, we have not just glulam beams but another technology of structural CLT walls which can take an extremely long time to rot if ever. Then glulam column can be continuous which means minimum connections but not weak connections. It becomes very much like balloon frame with fire-blocking.
In addition to designed beam pocket and solidly secured ribbon beam and heavy duty beam hangers, I doubt the structure is going to go anywhere especially when you don't stretch the limits of beam spans between support.
As for margin of error for problems... that depends. Think about this, if I need only an 8" x 10" but instead am using a 12" x 24" beam, how much beam mass can I lose to rot or fire damage before the beam is too small for carrying the design load conditions at peak design stress conditions. Granted, we would not want to have rot so we would prevent water intrusion as well as allow for evaporation and discharge so there wouldn't be water reaching a point of causing wood rot.
You don't need to re-build every 20 years. As wood can properly last well over 20 years even without ideal maintenance. A large part of that is because by design, those conditions are minimized as well as choosing durable species of wood for wet environment.
If I was using Ipe, it would be very strong and durable and would be an extraordinarily strong glulam or CLT wall but also incredibly expensive but not exactly using local species.
Started my internship this week. I stared at column grids for 8 hours today!
This job is definitely more monotonous than my last one so far, but the projects are far larger in scope than anything I've worked on before. Hopefully my team will throw me some actual structural design assignments once I get acquainted with their software (I'm being trained in revit on-the-fly), but for now I'm learning a lot.
If I can survive the Pope-acolypse this will be a well deserved weekend!
Miles, I'm sorry to hear about your friend ODing. Sad.
Wood for higher rise buildings is a thing that is happening. The technology seems pretty interesting. I've been pondering recently the idea, as put forth by Peter Schjeldahl, that wood is flesh. We don't build out of any other flesh, do we?
I just spent 24 hours in Minneapolis. What a cool city, definitively way cooler than Naptown. The Jean Nouvel Guthrie theater is interesting but doesn't really have staying power IMO. It will age as a curiosity, not as a masterpiece. What was most interesting to me was the green initiatives - bike lanes *everywhere*, bike share and car share programs, lots of recycling, great connection to their industrial history. "Little Mogadishu" aka the Riverside Plaza by Ralph Rapson was EFFING AWESOME!!!!! at least as a sculptural building. Not sure it's really so great for the people that live there, but I did get a sense of vitality and community around the plaza area at the base so at least it doesn't seem to be inhibiting a sense of community.
Horyuji could be an "interesting" model for contemporary real estate speculation. Construct the project and brand (instant place making) it for the desired target market. Once the project meets it's desired return track it's performance against deferred maintenance (added profit). Once the project is not sustainable, complete demo selectively to keep the reusable stuff and turn the rest into biochar (for the next public space/ streetscape). The rebuild the site to meet the needs of the next desired group.
Recycle the entire site, and the pressure to find thenext great piece of property lessens.
Schoon make sure to go check out the benches in 30th Street Station that were built and installed by my husband! artist is Aaron Asis, piece is called In/out Station.
Vintage 1990. Done for a really miserable couple who stiffed him on the fee. At one of the early meetings the wife was wearing a purple velour pantsuit. They essentially got a rehashed spec house design. Definitely one of the lesser works, some really bad interior spaces - the interior trellis is about the only thing going for it.
Over time the quality of the clients deteriorated to the point of absurdity. These people were near the bottom.
I like the house a lot, sort of an open plan before open plan was cool? Also nice to see a home for sale that isn't "staged", looks like real people with real quirks live there now.
Yea, Miles I thought the house is gorgeous. Sorry to hear it wasn't a good experience for your dad.
I saw Deborah Berke give a lecture last night. I'm too busy today to go into it but it was SO inspirational and SUCH amazing work. She has a magazine article about her titled "Miss Minimalism" and it just inspired me to embrace minimalism even more than I do already. Who cares if something isn't swoopy and trendy and eye-catching?!? That's not my style. Simple forms, texture through materials, THAT is what matters to me.
Miles, have to say that there are a lot of quintessential Jaffe elements to this house. Don’t know if this street elevation is so much a quintessential, but is strong.
thank you sarah. my least favorite muslim holiday when they slaughter rams and other animals instead of abraham's son. they supposed to distribute the meat to poor people but most people don't even do that anymore. it gets bloody. not good if you are a kid growing up. but regardless, nice of you to wish happy eid.
miles' dad is one of my favorite architects and without miles, i wouldn't know about him.
As far as I am concerned there are only a handful of houses after 1975 that are worth anything and this isn't one of them.
This column / pavilion concept originally came out of Gates of the Grove, was extensively developed in a massive renovation, disastrously explored in STO in Norman's only (thankfully) PoMo abortion and then run off without thought on the West Orange house.
Norman was largely hands-off after the initial design and it clearly shows - he literally handed the job over to a former employee (sold as a local project manager) because he hated the client. There are some horrific material choices and details, like that oversize grey tile that looks like concrete block, or the way it wraps a partition - Norman rarely if ever showed the true thickness of a frame wall. The better details look integral to the structure (dining room ceiling) but many look slapped on (the half-paneled interior gable). Grills, switches, base and trim - all pretty much applied without thought. That stair rail is absolutely hideous, like something you'd buy prefab out of a catalog.
Now that's what I'm talking about, the early work. As a photographer and film maker Becker is avant-garde and recognized in my father a kindred spirit. They did three projects together and remained close friends.
Look at the difference between Becker and the West Orange house: bold form, simple palette of natural materials, beautifully proportioned interior spaces ... went to see that house a few years ago, the new owners said it was all original, completely unchanged. Except for the white colonial wainscot kitchen, of course. On the bright side, at least they didn't tear it down.
I thought I add this: If this becomes adopted and accepted into the codes... 10 story CLT is possible if sprinklered or otherwised approved methods for the story height increase. 9 stories, otherwise.
510.12 (new) Special occupancy provision allowing up to 9 story CLT Stand-alone provisions for a special occupancy R-1/R-2 with height increase similar to other existing special occupancies. G165-15-PC.pdf AWC Public Comment #2 – requests Approve as Modified
On October 4th, the American Wood Council (AWC) conducted a successful ASTM E119 fire resistance test on a CLT wall at NGC Testing Services in Buffalo, NY. The wall, consisting of a 5-ply CLT (approximately 6-7/8 inches thick), was covered on each side with a single layer of 5/8" Type X gypsum wallboard. The wall was loaded to the maximum load attainable by the NGC Testing Service equipment. The test specimen lasted 3 hours, 5 minutes, and 57 seconds (03:05:57). The US CLT Handbook project provided funding for this fire test. NGC-CLT-Report.pdf
Bob Borson has another lovely post today on Life of an Architect. This one discusses using shadows on construction documents, and these are perfect examples of "emotional drawings" IMO.
wouldn't it be more practical and effective to give a 3d perspective?
i'm not against 'emotional' drawings, but our first obligation is to communicate how to building the building, not communicate the emotional intent of the design. if shadows help do that, which he thought it did in this case, then more power to you. however, if shadows start obfuscating notes and materials and the stuff that is probably more important to communicate, then i would stay away from them.
you could do 2 elevation sheets, one to show shadows, the other to show the normal necessary stuff that might not be as fun.
That slime ball scammer "design/build" crook looks to be back at it here in Dallas, cleaned out his facebook comments of all the people he's ripped off, and re-launched a few websites with the same company name as before. Why do people like this get so many chances to do harm?
I have no problem with Bob's use of shadows on those elevations, but what's the deal with his "City Blueprint" font choice? It's the Comic Sans of construction documents.
I've had a little wine tonight. Ten years ago I wouldn't have hesitated to post on Archinect while drunk. These days I'm a bit more cautious. Question: is this because Archinect has changed, or because I have changed?
You guys, that Peterson car museum is SHIT. It's really embarrassing. Embarrassing for KPF, and for the discipline, and for humans.
Thread Central
SHoP Architects are Bringing a Wooden Condo Building to Chelsea. 10 stories, condo building, made of wood, in Manhattan ... the sky must be falling, or SHoP really wants to get sued.
Rise of the wooden skyscrapers: "Where all you need is a giant allen key to put it together."
6 dead after Berkeley balcony collapses
Like SHoP, but if this stuff gets any taller all the terrorist will need is matches.
Actually, if they overbuild it, that is use CLT that is larger than required as well as Ipe boards 4" thick wrapping around the wall surfaces as well as Ipe joists. Add to that a fire suppression system with redundancy water supply and distribution as maybe needed, the fire suppression should extinguish fire before any critical issue.
The key is extinguishing the fire before it goes out of control. What is also to be noted is large timber beams are known to self-extinguish itself due to the charring which inhibits continuous burning as long. A trick maybe under control is to pre-char the surface of wood and so as to inhibit catching on fire or something. Additional, a structure can be structurally made of wood provide it is encapsulated in a fire-resistant barrier. Similarly, we did this with steel. Where wood may burn, steel would melt. So historically, we encapsulate the columns in a fire resistant barrier such as 6" CMU blocks surrounding the CLT columns for example.
There are solutions but this stuff would have to be fire rated and with fire suppression.
wood rots faster than steel. especially if you're spraying fire sprinklers on it.
you could look at the maintenance of some of the ancient wood japanese shrines, like Ise Grand, as a way of preserving the wood. not sure it's worth the trouble.
Ise isn't preserved in the normal sense, it's rebuilt every 20 years. It preserves both culture and craft.
A structure like that should have been built in the Astoria, Oregon coastal area as it rains far more than enough to worry too much about fire igniting the wood. LOL.
Actually, given they are using engineered beam and column structure, it is very likely to be a low risk to fire with suppression system. This is in the Portland, Oregon community and it is by far from being the tallest building in the area. Oregon building codes would require a fire sprinkler system installed, if I recall it correctly. There would be 1 hour fire rating between the units would be my reasoned assumption. The exposed wood is probably fire treated. They don't look like Ipe so it is probably treated with a fire resistant coating. In addition, there can be further methods to prevent or minimize fire.
Structurally, it would perform equivalent to the steel framed construction as the large dimension lumber would have charring that would occur along with a sprinkler system to suppress a fire which you would do need even in a steel frame structure to prevent the steel from melting by extinguishing the fire before the steel loses its strength.
On the outside exterior, this is probably a low risk deal provide they coated it with fire resistance and exterior weather resistance.
Among the things that can minimize fire issue is the facilities equipped with ovens and other equipment in the place that doesn't have an open flame such as conduction cooktops and other technologies like radiant heating and in-line water heating. Minimize risks so a manageable level. Given the building is only 10 stories in a neighborhood of other buildings of comparable building height already. Not likely a mainstream terrorist target.
If I was designing such a structure, the building would probably have some sort of non-combustible face brick work and such that it would be unlikely to be affected some idiot walking along flicking a lit cigarette. There are ways to minimize issues.
As long as the risks are mitigated sufficiently, it should be fine. Steel may not combust but under heat of fire at melting temperature, it weakens and can collapse. Fire that can consume large timber will heat steel up to point where it would soften and sag and even melt.
For stud work, wood studs and the light steel C channel studs will perform similar in a fire. One burns. The other melts and warps. Either way, serious life threatening risks to occupants.
texas burboun is an oxymoron.
curtkram,
Steel rusts if it was exposed to water.
Wood will rot if you constantly spray but if you let moisture ventilate out, it will be fine. You aren't going to be running the sprinklers all the time. You sprinkler in an emergency.
Some species of wood is very durable after all, wood will stay preserved even after 50 to 100+ years when completely submerge. After all, many of the wood comes from trees that grows in this wet and mossy environment like found in western Oregon and Washington.
Wood is renewable.
It comes from trees that are grown. Steel comes from iron ore which is pretty much the same quantity more or less as there was millions of years ago as there is today. It isn't exactly renewable and it takes a long time for fresh iron ore to come up from the insides of the earth in sufficient quantity to build buildings and structures. We are using iron ore that are mostly from geological activity from million or more years ago.
For every tree consumed, we can plant 1 or more trees that will become massive trees in 600 years. Energy required to make it into building components is far less than to make iron ore from rock into a steel beam.
If we need to replace a wood column or beam, it can be replaced with minimal energy and carbon footprint. Less than steel or concrete.
My point is there are benefits. Our current and biggest Wood rot problem comes from idiots making regulations who doesn't know jack shit about wood and how it works or Design professionals who don't know a damn thing about wood and causes the conditions for wood rot to occur. A little bit of moisture isn't a problem on wood.
My house, although, over 130 years old with virtually all of its structural framing being 140 years old. Some stuff being only 100 or so years old. That isn't bad at all for wood.
I've been thinking about tall wood buildings for a few years now. It's an excellent idea, but seems to be completely not allowed by code. I'm curious how SHOP would get around that "minor" detail.
Go walk thru Paul Revere's house, 250 years old, there isn't anything square, level or plumb about it. The outside looks ok but...
Wood buildings can not have the service life that masonry and steel building do.
JeromeS,
What is the service life of buildings today?
30 years? Maybe 50 years.
Paul Revere's house was probably built before there was modern levels. In addition, there is 250 years of settlement with stone masonry foundation and shallow foundations. It is unclear whether there was continuous footing or if it is isolated pads under mortared stone masonry stem wall.
250 years of settlement issues and you can have the same issues with steel buildings as well as masonry. They didn't necessarily account for differential settlement back then. 250 years later? Hell, who knows what issues were caused by subway tunnels over the years.
Add to the fact is that it was built before modern levels and possibly built by Paul Revere and friends. Lets remember the timber were probably cut by ax and cleaned up by a few other tools by a craftsman. However, they didn't have 19th century industrial age milled lumber or modern saws. In addition, sub-mm level perfection probably wasn't a major concern at the time. It was more important that it got built during the permissible weather than perfectly squared and plumbed walls. Then even if was at the time it was built, there was 250 years of settlement... differential? Possible effects caused by the neighboring building causing settlement issues over the years. It was crafted and built also on a somewhat sloping ground.
In this day and age, we can get a lot tighter precision with far more squared & plumbed walls.
What is the intended service life of the 10 story condo? It is clearly possible to have 250 year service life with the glulam and/or CLT structural elements.
Wood buildings can not have the service life that masonry and steel building do.
As Bob Dole said when asked if he preferred boxers or briefs, "Depends."
With proper design and maintenance (and the luck of not burning down) wood buildings can last a long time. Hōryū-ji was built in 607.
...sigh... Engineered lumber does NOT have a 250 year service life!
gruen,
Yeah... I agree.
Looking at the IBC (OSSC doesn't change this in any way)
We are looking at Type IV or V construction type.
That leaves us with 4 to 5 stories in height under that classification. I don't know how the hell they will be able to get 10 stories. It needs to be classified as Type I-A or I-B.
This means, there needs to be a 2-hr rated walls, structural frames, ceiling/floor separation at the least as well as 1-hr Ceiling/Roof assembly. Heavy Timber (Glulam/CLT) can give you a 1 hr rating rating from my understanding. I would almost certainly need to encapsulate the Timber with at least a 1-hr rated encapsulation like two layers of gypsum wall-board, brick masonry (veneer), etc.
I don't know how they will get to passing code, though.
JeromeS,
Actually it can if you use an oversized glulam beams. The resin used to bind the laminates are going to last a very long time... possibly longer than the wood pieces. The laminates are often hardwood species and they can last 200+ years if the conditions are appropriate. They can last 1000 years with proper maintenance and not allow it to rot.
If you engineer to the minimum, then degradation may cause your service life to reduce at the rate of degradation. Glulams aren't going to degradate all that much faster than a solid hewn timber of the same size. Usually, glulams are stronger than an equivalent size solid hewn wood beam.
If the size of the glulam was bigger than it needed to be to support the design load with columns that are bigger than it needs to be... in other words... over built. It would have a 250 year service life. Structures that perform well over time tends to be structures that are overbuilt. The reason is that you have more structure than minimum. You have more structure for which degradation can occur without reducing its effective strength below that of the design load with basic code required safety standards. Wood may have rot, damages, nicks, and other wear & tear over its life. If it is sufficiently designed and built, the structure will endure. This also includes your fastening as well. If you normally need 3/8" grade 8 bolts but instead use 5/8" grade 8 bolts, the bolts will be stronger.
The resin that binds the glulam will probably last 1000+ years.
I'm talking about real service life. We simply don't have glulams that have been tested to last 250 years because the glulam that we are using in this day and age was only invented in the 19th century. One standing example goes back to 1866 approaching 150 years.
The resins they use are extremely high strength bonding that is stronger than the natural bonding of wood fibers as they are.
Glulam could have a functional service life of well over 250 years.
http://www.frdistilling.com/whiskeys/1
without proper maintenance, things can fall apart pretty easy. shop might be among the best people to design a wood structure that won't have unseen elements rotting or falling apart, but ultimately a tall wood building would have less margin of error for problems caused by lack of maintenance than a steel building would have. i would be more concerned in wood construction with a connection failing because nobody saw it go to shit than i would be with fire.
rebuilding the building every 20 years as a form of maintenance is probably more that what's strictly required, but it is an example of the effectiveness of regular maintenance. :)
curtkram,
Sure. That can be a problem for any structure.
A large part comes down to design. If you got water intrusion problem, it is a problem for steel as it is for wood. This is why those light steel studs are galvanized. If you use stainless steel or Aluminum then perhaps it wouldn't be a problem. However, melting point.
If you use concrete, you have the mass weight of it but sure, it probably will last with extreme endurance but it isn't always suitable to build a highrise out of concrete on a site.
In addition, we have not just glulam beams but another technology of structural CLT walls which can take an extremely long time to rot if ever. Then glulam column can be continuous which means minimum connections but not weak connections. It becomes very much like balloon frame with fire-blocking.
In addition to designed beam pocket and solidly secured ribbon beam and heavy duty beam hangers, I doubt the structure is going to go anywhere especially when you don't stretch the limits of beam spans between support.
As for margin of error for problems... that depends. Think about this, if I need only an 8" x 10" but instead am using a 12" x 24" beam, how much beam mass can I lose to rot or fire damage before the beam is too small for carrying the design load conditions at peak design stress conditions. Granted, we would not want to have rot so we would prevent water intrusion as well as allow for evaporation and discharge so there wouldn't be water reaching a point of causing wood rot.
You don't need to re-build every 20 years. As wood can properly last well over 20 years even without ideal maintenance. A large part of that is because by design, those conditions are minimized as well as choosing durable species of wood for wet environment.
If I was using Ipe, it would be very strong and durable and would be an extraordinarily strong glulam or CLT wall but also incredibly expensive but not exactly using local species.
Just a random thought.
Started my internship this week. I stared at column grids for 8 hours today!
This job is definitely more monotonous than my last one so far, but the projects are far larger in scope than anything I've worked on before. Hopefully my team will throw me some actual structural design assignments once I get acquainted with their software (I'm being trained in revit on-the-fly), but for now I'm learning a lot.
If I can survive the Pope-acolypse this will be a well deserved weekend!
Horyuji - has been reconstructed, who knows how many times. In fact very little of the 8th century building remains.
As a thought experiment, a wood high rise is interesting. That is all.
Miles, I'm sorry to hear about your friend ODing. Sad.
Wood for higher rise buildings is a thing that is happening. The technology seems pretty interesting. I've been pondering recently the idea, as put forth by Peter Schjeldahl, that wood is flesh. We don't build out of any other flesh, do we?
I just spent 24 hours in Minneapolis. What a cool city, definitively way cooler than Naptown. The Jean Nouvel Guthrie theater is interesting but doesn't really have staying power IMO. It will age as a curiosity, not as a masterpiece. What was most interesting to me was the green initiatives - bike lanes *everywhere*, bike share and car share programs, lots of recycling, great connection to their industrial history. "Little Mogadishu" aka the Riverside Plaza by Ralph Rapson was EFFING AWESOME!!!!! at least as a sculptural building. Not sure it's really so great for the people that live there, but I did get a sense of vitality and community around the plaza area at the base so at least it doesn't seem to be inhibiting a sense of community.
Horyuji could be an "interesting" model for contemporary real estate speculation. Construct the project and brand (instant place making) it for the desired target market. Once the project meets it's desired return track it's performance against deferred maintenance (added profit). Once the project is not sustainable, complete demo selectively to keep the reusable stuff and turn the rest into biochar (for the next public space/ streetscape). The rebuild the site to meet the needs of the next desired group.
Recycle the entire site, and the pressure to find the next great piece of property lessens.
Thanks Donna. Seems to be a raging epidemic fueled by cheap poppies from Afghanistan. Mission Accomplished!
Schoon make sure to go check out the benches in 30th Street Station that were built and installed by my husband! artist is Aaron Asis, piece is called In/out Station.
Miles on another note great spread on one of you dad's houses. You get to break some baby teeth on this one? http://curbed.com/archives/2015/09/23/contemporary-luxury-homes-new-jersey.php
Vintage 1990. Done for a really miserable couple who stiffed him on the fee. At one of the early meetings the wife was wearing a purple velour pantsuit. They essentially got a rehashed spec house design. Definitely one of the lesser works, some really bad interior spaces - the interior trellis is about the only thing going for it.
Over time the quality of the clients deteriorated to the point of absurdity. These people were near the bottom.
....and anyone else who wants one....
I like the house a lot, sort of an open plan before open plan was cool? Also nice to see a home for sale that isn't "staged", looks like real people with real quirks live there now.
Yea, Miles I thought the house is gorgeous. Sorry to hear it wasn't a good experience for your dad.
I saw Deborah Berke give a lecture last night. I'm too busy today to go into it but it was SO inspirational and SUCH amazing work. She has a magazine article about her titled "Miss Minimalism" and it just inspired me to embrace minimalism even more than I do already. Who cares if something isn't swoopy and trendy and eye-catching?!? That's not my style. Simple forms, texture through materials, THAT is what matters to me.
Miles, have to say that there are a lot of quintessential Jaffe elements to this house. Don’t know if this street elevation is so much a quintessential, but is strong.
thank you sarah. my least favorite muslim holiday when they slaughter rams and other animals instead of abraham's son. they supposed to distribute the meat to poor people but most people don't even do that anymore. it gets bloody. not good if you are a kid growing up. but regardless, nice of you to wish happy eid.
miles' dad is one of my favorite architects and without miles, i wouldn't know about him.
As far as I am concerned there are only a handful of houses after 1975 that are worth anything and this isn't one of them.
This column / pavilion concept originally came out of Gates of the Grove, was extensively developed in a massive renovation, disastrously explored in STO in Norman's only (thankfully) PoMo abortion and then run off without thought on the West Orange house.
Norman was largely hands-off after the initial design and it clearly shows - he literally handed the job over to a former employee (sold as a local project manager) because he hated the client. There are some horrific material choices and details, like that oversize grey tile that looks like concrete block, or the way it wraps a partition - Norman rarely if ever showed the true thickness of a frame wall. The better details look integral to the structure (dining room ceiling) but many look slapped on (the half-paneled interior gable). Grills, switches, base and trim - all pretty much applied without thought. That stair rail is absolutely hideous, like something you'd buy prefab out of a catalog.
http://mondo-blogo.blogspot.com/2011/06/prince-of-hamptons-modernism-norman.html
Great pics of Mr. Jaffe, good lookin' dude... When were young...
http://www.normanjaffe.com/biograph.html
Link has a good picture of Norman Jaffe sitting next to Wolverine at the RISD graduation in 1980.
Becker house is intriguing. I didn't look real hard but that seems to be the primary photo of that house.
Hahaha I'm dumb, I thought that *was* CMU! And I was applauding the nod to Kahn. My bad.
https://soundcloud.com/spectator1828/dame-zaha-hadid-walks-out-of
Now that's what I'm talking about, the early work. As a photographer and film maker Becker is avant-garde and recognized in my father a kindred spirit. They did three projects together and remained close friends.
Look at the difference between Becker and the West Orange house: bold form, simple palette of natural materials, beautifully proportioned interior spaces ... went to see that house a few years ago, the new owners said it was all original, completely unchanged. Except for the white colonial wainscot kitchen, of course. On the bright side, at least they didn't tear it down.
Good night TC, it has been a minute. Busy settling into a new city/job. So far Denver has been good. More to come...
Congrats Donna and Ken! Also, Redemption is def a fav drink. Sorry to hear about your friend Miles. Condolences.
E_I wrote:
SHoP Architects are Bringing a Wooden Condo Building to Chelsea. 10 stories, condo building, made of wood, in Manhattan ... the sky must be falling, or SHoP really wants to get sued.
Rise of the wooden skyscrapers: "Where all you need is a giant allen key to put it together."
6 dead after Berkeley balcony collapses
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought I add this: If this becomes adopted and accepted into the codes... 10 story CLT is possible if sprinklered or otherwised approved methods for the story height increase. 9 stories, otherwise.
These changes at the link ----> http://www.awc.org/Code-Officials/2015-IBC-Code-Changes
Example:
G165-15
510.12 (new) Special occupancy provision allowing up to 9 story CLT
Stand-alone provisions for a special occupancy R-1/R-2 with height increase similar to other existing special occupancies.
G165-15-PC.pdf
AWC Public Comment #2 – requests Approve as Modified
NGC-CLT-Report.pdf
Additional information:
Bob Borson has another lovely post today on Life of an Architect. This one discusses using shadows on construction documents, and these are perfect examples of "emotional drawings" IMO.
wouldn't it be more practical and effective to give a 3d perspective?
i'm not against 'emotional' drawings, but our first obligation is to communicate how to building the building, not communicate the emotional intent of the design. if shadows help do that, which he thought it did in this case, then more power to you. however, if shadows start obfuscating notes and materials and the stuff that is probably more important to communicate, then i would stay away from them.
you could do 2 elevation sheets, one to show shadows, the other to show the normal necessary stuff that might not be as fun.
That slime ball scammer "design/build" crook looks to be back at it here in Dallas, cleaned out his facebook comments of all the people he's ripped off, and re-launched a few websites with the same company name as before. Why do people like this get so many chances to do harm?
I have no problem with Bob's use of shadows on those elevations, but what's the deal with his "City Blueprint" font choice? It's the Comic Sans of construction documents.
Mr. Wiggin,
What's your problem with Mr. Borson?
Richard I don't think Mr Wiggin is referring to Bob Borson...or are you making a joke?
I knew that would get confused after I realized a prior post mentioned him. No problem with him, I love reading his blog!
No, this is someone I've mentioned in passing before, class A dirtbag.
Donna,
I couldn't tell. I suspected not so I asked so as to nudge him to clarify.
Mr. Wiggin,
Thanks for clarifying. It was confusing how you wrote it considering Mr. Borson is in Dallas, Texas as well so I was going... ugh.
Thanks again for clarifying.
I've had a little wine tonight. Ten years ago I wouldn't have hesitated to post on Archinect while drunk. These days I'm a bit more cautious. Question: is this because Archinect has changed, or because I have changed?
You guys, that Peterson car museum is SHIT. It's really embarrassing. Embarrassing for KPF, and for the discipline, and for humans.
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