anyone familiar with poured in place concrete or residential concrete construction etc...my curiousities are both general and specific (I searched the archives without any success):
A friend/co-worker wants to build a home with a green roof that slopes from grade, allowing easy access to the rooftop. The home would be around 1200-1400 sqft, on a small-ish suburban lot. He imagines an elongated arch reaching 15' or so in height, spanning 50-60 feet. for the sake of simplicity, how could something like this be achieved?
pre-cast arches dropped from the heavens?
poured in place into formwork?
sorry, I have no clue. any examples or references would be appreciated.
Hi
Zaha's latest the at Ordrupgård in denmark was calculated formwork, calculated with dutting edge software , now jackass or not fact is that that is primitiv plain CAD, --- seem like you want to use a computer as a stone age man , see even the plain thing you ask is so simple with simple CAD, go make it with Solid modeling and you can instantly make your formwork from the informations in the geometrics , you soon find this is better than doing it by hand but why stay with Lego mind.
i think there are some good shots of the formwork of the new Pedro Eisenman holocaust memorial project in Germany in recent publications (the usual mags). the library by mecanno (SP?) in Delft, NL is the classic green-ed building. check that one out.
Also, although Per Corell is a bumbling jerk with questionable command of the english language (doubtless can't speak Danish without offending people either), and probably hasn't ever built a real building, milling some foam might be the ticket for your own formwork. there's nothing 'instant' about it and long rant essays don't mean anything, so if you want to build something, I recommend you figure it out rather than writing silly essays about it. you can't very well wish, argue, or talk buildings into existence can you ?
if you have access to a milling machine, check the newest arch. review for formwork of some F. Ghery towers also in germany. getting the slab engineered probably wont' be easy and I can't even imagine how the rebar would be installed inside curved formwork.
I would recommend you search for 'green' roofs and see how the planting, structural (gravity loads), and drainage issues were dealt with. those are likely more challenging than how you're going to pour a slab.
aside from all this, making any ramp that rises 15 feet over a 60 foot run would be a very steep ramp.
look at george nakashima's house (can be found in his monograph). He was experimenting with concrete arches back in the day...he is also the greatest woodworker of all time (imo)
themeworld I am on reasoable safe ground as _everything_ you can describe in a 3D drawing you can produce. As long as it follow the tradisional engineering rules. And yes I builded a lot of different things with and without plans -- I can use heavy mashines and hand tools and acturly master niches so why is it you think 3D drawings of the actural thing in an assembly will not work exactly as how you see it work in a 3D drawing ? Don't you trust 3D drawings or are you just using social harasment instead of arguments ? Is it becaurse the "real architects" from your point of view better have none hands-on experience , that you socialy try harras mine.
Realy is it back to that again social harasment instead of real arguments --- please tell me where in my 3D drawings I am wrong ; you see if I wasn't right it could not be shown in a 3D drawing can't you even realise that.
No offcaurse not while you replace arguments with social harasment you don't even wait for an answer, but depend on that "others" think boatsbuilding are less "fine" than architecture. But is this realy the only ability you master -- then will _that_ make you a house, will that mean a revolution in building construction ?
Realy if you knew arts history you would know, but do you ?
social harassment ? again, that isn't a phrase we have in english. I can barely respond to your gibberish because it really makes almost no sense as an example of her majesty's english. I'm much happier making fun of your ridiculousness than pretending that the incomprehensible content of your essays deserves the dignity of a real response.
I'm just calling you out for being ridiculous. I'm calling you out for absurd, poorly written essays and heaps of images of 3D models followed by empty claims of the ease of building. Boat building is super cool (really), I'm saying I doubt you've ever built your architecture even as a model. That something CAN be done is relatively meaningless if it isn't done.
I'm relatively new to archinect but apparently you've posted your 'work' and ranted often enough that you are nearly universally hated on this site. I agree with this consensus. As such, you don't deserve responses to your 'theories'. Pppptttthhhhhbbbbbbbbbttttttttt.........!
And I am saying that the concrete formwork that is asked in this tread, can be yieled by just pointing to the Solids in a 3D drawing -- these would leave any measures to produce just what can be drawn in 3D with 3D entities ------- after 30 years that is all it add up to ; what was there from the beginning if you could just do a few calculations even on a piece pf paper if you douldn't maneage to multitask with the computer.
No I show a new way and you are so busy with social harasment, just like the arts critics was at the beginning of the past century, that you don't even look into it , don't even see that new things must be different but vorse of all, you don't see how it is the same "arguments" every time --- arguments that when you read them are with no doubt about social harasment being easier than realising the new.
thenewold I guess you think that an artist who speak perfect english are the only one that shuld count --- well maby if arts was about books, but you see when writers try state their rules in other brands they don't just talk rubbish they are totaly off track. You see I known some of the real great artists and fact is, that some of them barely could spell their own name in their own language ,still they made nice paintings so say the critics.
Your measure seem to be your own measure, if someone don't spell correct english he can't project a house ; now do that mean that many chinese architects who are not good at english shuld not be architects.
I also known some artists that in their personal life was some svine, they still made great books , a few both had bad spelling and no moral but they still made great arts. And you tell me that houses are made out of words -- don't you think that writers rather shuld keep to their own private life and start doing some poetry instead.
garpike ;
"What is new? Using 3d models for construction? That is not new."
That all depend what you mean ; "Throwing a sketch" that is then the responsibility of the engineers , is _that_ using 3D models for constructions ?
Is it then "using 3D models for construction" if these engineers only have lame polymesh entities that rely on skilled metal workers to put into reality --- if a tape measure will show huge foults ?
No but maby you don't know the difference and so you can use easy words without even looking at the drawings or reconise the difference.
You see mainly computers are _not_ used like you emagine in architecture ,usealy they are just holding an account on bits and pieces put into a computer drawing, and have _nothing_ to do wiith the construction as such --- na that is done the good old way with no need for computers, you didn't know that ?
You just think I am some hippie, and havn't worked with this the past 15 years ,think again but then ansver in an honest way.
And why is that --- becaurse my arguments are real ? While you think technikes that was made up 20 years ago will forever rule the build works, that Gethry are the master for the next 1000 years, listen how sense is it to build two houses when you want to build one -- isn't that what these steel houses are and the most expensive way to do that ---- if you even know about computers and try compare with how huge heavy steel profiles are bended and buckled with great expense , then you shuld wonder if architecture isn't in a dead-end ; wasn't computers made to make it simpler and cheaper , as I prove, isn't Gethry's concept allready 20 years old -- will you expect it to last forever.
Forever call it "cutting edge" and what you once could call it.
Realy just ansver me, have you even checked ,have you even understood what you complain about .
Yes I have even checked and understood what I complained about. Have you? Do you even know what I am talking about when I mention Gehry? Gehry Technologies? Contractors using only 3d models? I am not talking about how old some of the techniques are. I am not suggesting they are all "cutting edge". You are assuming that I am suggesting these things. You are also assuming that we are walking about "cutting edge" in the first place. We are not. We are talking about some silly egg crate idea that you won't let go. I did a Google search and see that you have been pushing this stuff since at least 2002.
Also, I must address the cost thing. Of course it is expensive to bend steel. But your idea must be so cheap it sells itself! (Sarcasm device test)
Garpike you just show you havn't understood anything, with 3D-H there are no bending or fiddeling .every piece that fir together are sectioned out of the 3D model it can nothing but work. ------- Then how do you explain the obvious difference in these metal tophat structures where you build two houses when you want to build one ; do you realy call the heavy "H" beam fighting the same as the thin stringer bending in other of these structures, ------ realy everyone who tried make polymesh structures make sense know these troubles -- only fiddeling make it work, and was that the meaning with the new fantastic methods. Was it the meaning that what was new 20 years ago shuld still be "cutting edge engineering" when fact is as all who know these structures know , the measures don't hold ; shuldn't computers make this better ?
No 3D-H is simply another world -- but you didn't read the 5000 words either did you, acturly all your questions all around the digital building process are ansvered in those, if you read them you wouldn't ask these questions --- and if you did and could point to the text where you was in doubt , I had a chance to open your mind, instead you eagerly try close it more and more.
So you acturly don't deal with architecture, hate the new or is here as you heard this is a place to bash a hippie --- and all those fancy designers are such ?
Just because something is new (which is not) doesn't mean everyone will like it. I am not interested. I have tastes like everyone else. Different people like different things. Actually, I do deal with architecture and actually I am not interested.
Damn! This is like the telemarketer that won't give up. And damn me being the guy that can't hang up.
donkey, about your friend's project, sounds very expensive. Has he considered materials other that concrete? I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to achieve a green roof on light wood frame construction - unless the humidity is a desire aspect of the concrete.
is there a large budget? per's version is i think rather an expensive option, in spite of claims to the contrary. but so is concrete in general. the local trades may not be too good at it either...
how wide is the house? if you can design it the right way the span can be reduced to the narrow width (instead of 20m you span 5 or 6) so that most any material will do for the structure (i think; check with an engineer after you do a prelim design)
sculptural concrete construction/formwork
anyone familiar with poured in place concrete or residential concrete construction etc...my curiousities are both general and specific (I searched the archives without any success):
A friend/co-worker wants to build a home with a green roof that slopes from grade, allowing easy access to the rooftop. The home would be around 1200-1400 sqft, on a small-ish suburban lot. He imagines an elongated arch reaching 15' or so in height, spanning 50-60 feet. for the sake of simplicity, how could something like this be achieved?
pre-cast arches dropped from the heavens?
poured in place into formwork?
sorry, I have no clue. any examples or references would be appreciated.
-donkey
I didn't count on silly-ass Per to distract from my query. Please, any help would be appreciated.
Hi
Zaha's latest the at Ordrupgård in denmark was calculated formwork, calculated with dutting edge software , now jackass or not fact is that that is primitiv plain CAD, --- seem like you want to use a computer as a stone age man , see even the plain thing you ask is so simple with simple CAD, go make it with Solid modeling and you can instantly make your formwork from the informations in the geometrics , you soon find this is better than doing it by hand but why stay with Lego mind.
Fight Per-rorism
i think there are some good shots of the formwork of the new Pedro Eisenman holocaust memorial project in Germany in recent publications (the usual mags). the library by mecanno (SP?) in Delft, NL is the classic green-ed building. check that one out.
Also, although Per Corell is a bumbling jerk with questionable command of the english language (doubtless can't speak Danish without offending people either), and probably hasn't ever built a real building, milling some foam might be the ticket for your own formwork. there's nothing 'instant' about it and long rant essays don't mean anything, so if you want to build something, I recommend you figure it out rather than writing silly essays about it. you can't very well wish, argue, or talk buildings into existence can you ?
if you have access to a milling machine, check the newest arch. review for formwork of some F. Ghery towers also in germany. getting the slab engineered probably wont' be easy and I can't even imagine how the rebar would be installed inside curved formwork.
I would recommend you search for 'green' roofs and see how the planting, structural (gravity loads), and drainage issues were dealt with. those are likely more challenging than how you're going to pour a slab.
aside from all this, making any ramp that rises 15 feet over a 60 foot run would be a very steep ramp.
look at george nakashima's house (can be found in his monograph). He was experimenting with concrete arches back in the day...he is also the greatest woodworker of all time (imo)
themeworld I am on reasoable safe ground as _everything_ you can describe in a 3D drawing you can produce. As long as it follow the tradisional engineering rules. And yes I builded a lot of different things with and without plans -- I can use heavy mashines and hand tools and acturly master niches so why is it you think 3D drawings of the actural thing in an assembly will not work exactly as how you see it work in a 3D drawing ? Don't you trust 3D drawings or are you just using social harasment instead of arguments ? Is it becaurse the "real architects" from your point of view better have none hands-on experience , that you socialy try harras mine.
Realy is it back to that again social harasment instead of real arguments --- please tell me where in my 3D drawings I am wrong ; you see if I wasn't right it could not be shown in a 3D drawing can't you even realise that.
No offcaurse not while you replace arguments with social harasment you don't even wait for an answer, but depend on that "others" think boatsbuilding are less "fine" than architecture. But is this realy the only ability you master -- then will _that_ make you a house, will that mean a revolution in building construction ?
Realy if you knew arts history you would know, but do you ?
william massie
social harassment ? again, that isn't a phrase we have in english. I can barely respond to your gibberish because it really makes almost no sense as an example of her majesty's english. I'm much happier making fun of your ridiculousness than pretending that the incomprehensible content of your essays deserves the dignity of a real response.
I'm just calling you out for being ridiculous. I'm calling you out for absurd, poorly written essays and heaps of images of 3D models followed by empty claims of the ease of building. Boat building is super cool (really), I'm saying I doubt you've ever built your architecture even as a model. That something CAN be done is relatively meaningless if it isn't done.
I'm relatively new to archinect but apparently you've posted your 'work' and ranted often enough that you are nearly universally hated on this site. I agree with this consensus. As such, you don't deserve responses to your 'theories'. Pppptttthhhhhbbbbbbbbbttttttttt.........!
And I am saying that the concrete formwork that is asked in this tread, can be yieled by just pointing to the Solids in a 3D drawing -- these would leave any measures to produce just what can be drawn in 3D with 3D entities ------- after 30 years that is all it add up to ; what was there from the beginning if you could just do a few calculations even on a piece pf paper if you douldn't maneage to multitask with the computer.
No I show a new way and you are so busy with social harasment, just like the arts critics was at the beginning of the past century, that you don't even look into it , don't even see that new things must be different but vorse of all, you don't see how it is the same "arguments" every time --- arguments that when you read them are with no doubt about social harasment being easier than realising the new.
What is new? Using 3d models for construction? That is not new.
thenewold I guess you think that an artist who speak perfect english are the only one that shuld count --- well maby if arts was about books, but you see when writers try state their rules in other brands they don't just talk rubbish they are totaly off track. You see I known some of the real great artists and fact is, that some of them barely could spell their own name in their own language ,still they made nice paintings so say the critics.
Your measure seem to be your own measure, if someone don't spell correct english he can't project a house ; now do that mean that many chinese architects who are not good at english shuld not be architects.
I also known some artists that in their personal life was some svine, they still made great books , a few both had bad spelling and no moral but they still made great arts. And you tell me that houses are made out of words -- don't you think that writers rather shuld keep to their own private life and start doing some poetry instead.
garpike ;
"What is new? Using 3d models for construction? That is not new."
That all depend what you mean ; "Throwing a sketch" that is then the responsibility of the engineers , is _that_ using 3D models for constructions ?
Is it then "using 3D models for construction" if these engineers only have lame polymesh entities that rely on skilled metal workers to put into reality --- if a tape measure will show huge foults ?
No but maby you don't know the difference and so you can use easy words without even looking at the drawings or reconise the difference.
You see mainly computers are _not_ used like you emagine in architecture ,usealy they are just holding an account on bits and pieces put into a computer drawing, and have _nothing_ to do wiith the construction as such --- na that is done the good old way with no need for computers, you didn't know that ?
You just think I am some hippie, and havn't worked with this the past 15 years ,think again but then ansver in an honest way.
One word: Gehry.
Geeeez... I should just ignore this guy.
And why is that --- becaurse my arguments are real ? While you think technikes that was made up 20 years ago will forever rule the build works, that Gethry are the master for the next 1000 years, listen how sense is it to build two houses when you want to build one -- isn't that what these steel houses are and the most expensive way to do that ---- if you even know about computers and try compare with how huge heavy steel profiles are bended and buckled with great expense , then you shuld wonder if architecture isn't in a dead-end ; wasn't computers made to make it simpler and cheaper , as I prove, isn't Gethry's concept allready 20 years old -- will you expect it to last forever.
Forever call it "cutting edge" and what you once could call it.
Realy just ansver me, have you even checked ,have you even understood what you complain about .
Yes I have even checked and understood what I complained about. Have you? Do you even know what I am talking about when I mention Gehry? Gehry Technologies? Contractors using only 3d models? I am not talking about how old some of the techniques are. I am not suggesting they are all "cutting edge". You are assuming that I am suggesting these things. You are also assuming that we are walking about "cutting edge" in the first place. We are not. We are talking about some silly egg crate idea that you won't let go. I did a Google search and see that you have been pushing this stuff since at least 2002.
Also, I must address the cost thing. Of course it is expensive to bend steel. But your idea must be so cheap it sells itself! (Sarcasm device test)
Garpike you just show you havn't understood anything, with 3D-H there are no bending or fiddeling .every piece that fir together are sectioned out of the 3D model it can nothing but work. ------- Then how do you explain the obvious difference in these metal tophat structures where you build two houses when you want to build one ; do you realy call the heavy "H" beam fighting the same as the thin stringer bending in other of these structures, ------ realy everyone who tried make polymesh structures make sense know these troubles -- only fiddeling make it work, and was that the meaning with the new fantastic methods. Was it the meaning that what was new 20 years ago shuld still be "cutting edge engineering" when fact is as all who know these structures know , the measures don't hold ; shuldn't computers make this better ?
No 3D-H is simply another world -- but you didn't read the 5000 words either did you, acturly all your questions all around the digital building process are ansvered in those, if you read them you wouldn't ask these questions --- and if you did and could point to the text where you was in doubt , I had a chance to open your mind, instead you eagerly try close it more and more.
I have no time or interest.
So you acturly don't deal with architecture, hate the new or is here as you heard this is a place to bash a hippie --- and all those fancy designers are such ?
Just because something is new (which is not) doesn't mean everyone will like it. I am not interested. I have tastes like everyone else. Different people like different things. Actually, I do deal with architecture and actually I am not interested.
Damn! This is like the telemarketer that won't give up. And damn me being the guy that can't hang up.
donkey, about your friend's project, sounds very expensive. Has he considered materials other that concrete? I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to achieve a green roof on light wood frame construction - unless the humidity is a desire aspect of the concrete.
is there a large budget? per's version is i think rather an expensive option, in spite of claims to the contrary. but so is concrete in general. the local trades may not be too good at it either...
how wide is the house? if you can design it the right way the span can be reduced to the narrow width (instead of 20m you span 5 or 6) so that most any material will do for the structure (i think; check with an engineer after you do a prelim design)
You've probably checked this out already, but.........
http://www.greenroofs.com/
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