Let's see if we can justify this behavior...In a nutshell:
1. Two criminals electrocute themselves running from police (who chase criminals)
2. Muslim youth unite and torch ghetto they are from, and assault police.
I'm confused, do muslims prefer living in burned out slums, or is mental illness so rampant, that they cannot deal with loss. Also, how is the french government responsible for their deplorable living conditions? Furthermore, how is the muslim community going to get anywhere with such a record of unreasonable ideas and behavior?
archangel, why would 'muslims' prefer living in burned out slums? who would?
your post kind of reminded me chief darral gates' statements after los angeles riots.
let me ask you one question. how is the muslim community get anywhere in europe, with outright racist generalizations and social injustice against them?
as it is briefly mentioned in another post, this racial divide is commonly used by opportunistic european politicians, namely in germany, france, holland, austria, denmark, sweden and to some degree in italy and england to gain votes and power.
i'd say you look into that, if you are interested in finding some answers.
To me the situation is clearly set by 30 years of unadmited segragationist politcs in the whole europe, particularly in countries with a strong colonial presence, such as France for instance.
Immigration is needed at one moment in history because there is a lot of work in the construction industry for example. Cities are built to house the newcomers. Work is done, population stays, with no more work to do. Fortunately, this population has been isolated in a badly planned and built remote city outbounds. Two generations pass, still no work, thus people get angry. Whenever there's a problem, governement shows its muscle, but there's more and more people with anger. At some point, the situatio gets worst an worst.
To me it's as simple as that.
I am just saying that, from an outwardly (and uneducated view), what I've seen of the muslim community in my life is:
-174 olympic assasinations
-misc plane hijackings
-WTC bombings (1993, 2001)
-Suicide bombings in Spain, London, Bali
-Beslan School bombing / massacre
-Beheading of Catholic school girls in indonesia
-riots in paris
The underlying question is, what are they doing to change the perception of the culture/religion?
What came first, prejudice, or proliferation psychotic homicide/suicide?
With each day and new example of terror, I am at a loss of how we can grow to understand....
ArchAngel, what are you doing to change the perception of your culture/religion?
I don't want to start another useless discussion on that, but I'm not sure the reaction of the occidental world (particularly the UK and USof A) to the 911 events as been particularly useful. Not to help people forget about three centuries of colonialism, slavery and global control on population of smaller and poorer countries.
Which prejudice came first?
Arch Angel
Are you really this simple or are you showing off for Archinect?
You can make a list like that out of any group/people/country.
This reminds me of the 60's in the USA (or at least what I've read about them). The Muslims want real chances to advance in society, they are fed up, the racism and xenophobia is gonna kill europe, and send it to war like it has many times before.
Oh, by the way ArchAngel, remember about 5 years ago when spaniards set an African/Muslim community ablaze?
There is something bad brewing in Europe.
Christians:
-The crusades
-The inquisition
-Witch trials/burnings
-Anti-semitism in most of europe
-KKK
-Abortion clinic bombers
-Neo Nazis (and the original variety)
Just compare these riots (no human casualities by the way) to recent events that you probably haven't heard on Fox news of and that happened at the border of a small territory belonging to Spain, but part of Morocco (i believe) called Ceuta a few weeks ago. A group of central African try to break the frontier to get a better life in Europe. They suffer a brutal repression and are deported by Moroccan police IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT with no shoes, no food no water. Now, I'm not blaming Spain or Morocco in particular. I'm just looking for an exemple of injustice plainly organized by a Western country to protect it's territory by any means from a population it doesn't to see, and from problems it doesn't want to aknowledge. Just like a few users of this forum.
The USA:
-Mass Killing of Native Americans
-Enslavement of Africans
-Stealing land from Mexico
-Colonizing and using foreing cultures
-Meddling in Latin american affairs (stealing Panama from Colombia, Supporting bloody dictartors in: Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua, Cuba (Batista), Iraq (when convenient), Saudi Arabia, the stan countries)
-Bombings/War/Colonialism
I am saying this as an MAerican and a Christian, and I do love both qualifiers.
has anyone looked into the situation that is or was going on in the Netherlands? it seems - from the little i've heard - that Holland has a very liberal immigration policy and to the delight of many dutchies people came in droves. the problem is it seems that many poor muslims, and very religious muslims, have migrated to Holland. well, that isn't really the problem, but the problem that Holland seems to be having is that muslim extremists have handcuffed the native Dutch from criticizing anything muslim, islamic, religious, etc...some have been assasinated because of their comments, some live under the threat of assasination. holland is now or was considering changing their immigration policies, because of the threat. Have things changed? Can anyone say for sure that this threat is isolated? What are the thoughts from abroad? Am I missing more to this story?
Of course, I wasn't implying that religious extremist aren't dangerous. But I don't think the situation in Aulnay has anything to do with it. It has to do with a repressive and stupid policy toward a desperate youth with nothing to hope for. I just talk from the point of view of a French citizen that just plainly hate it's governement, and that's probably the only thing i have in common with the rioters of Aulnay.
"There is something bad brewing in Europe." melquiades.
yes.. again.. but, much more complex and ignited. i don't wish it..
something else.
the new pope said " muslim turkey does not belong to europe". that statement in itself is very well heard in muslim world, not only as a political statement, but also as an irresponsible and aggressive opinion coming from a pope, who is supposed to guide the christian world towards spirituality, peace and love.
his was just an example about the depth of divide and level of understanding.
mr. sarkozy (french minister and presidential runner) called electricuted muslim kids, "punks".
As an american who lived in France for 4 years, with many muslim friends (well their parents were muslim, from Algeria or Morocco), I definitely witnessed much more open racism and hostility between French & Immigrant youth than anything I'd ever experienced here. I think it's hard to grasp if you have not directly experienced the situation, and I would say it took me a few years even to touch the surface of the ingrained French culture and how it reacts when confronted with different cultures and social situations that do not conform to recent history.
Imagine the relationship that exists in the inner city between the african american community & the cops here - just say it's something similar in France, but with a lot more tension and misunderstanding on both sides (at least that was my observation). Paris is a difficult place for anyone to live, even my white French friends who were born there - 'French'you might want to elaborate, but it can be difficult to find work and there's a very strong class hierarchy that exists in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. The kids that are rioting are physically and culturally isolated from opportunity - not only that but they are constantly told they are worthless and will never have any chance of living the 'French' lifestyle that they can glimpse on a trip into Paris - Champs Elysees, Les Halles, etc...
I personally was assaulted on more than one occasion by angry people who probably thought I was French (at that time anyway- 10 years ago - when people found out I was from LA they usually changed their demeanor entirely and became much more friendly or left me alone ). I also had a chance to see what life was like in the cites(projects), to hang out with people in their mid twenties, a lot of whom were planning for families and trying to figure out how they were going to work and what they wanted for their children.
I came away from living there not feeling racist towards muslims or north africans (though of course there are forms of the religion I despise and particularly did not appreciate the way some of my female friends were treated by their families - very patriarchal), but understanding at the very least the frustration that a lot of people feel and the difficulties the French government, and people, have to face - the culture is much older than ours, somewhat less tolerant, and I think a lot of French people are feeling a little lost (esp. older generation) when it comes to a changing Europe & world.
Spot on analysis R.A Rudolph.
I would just add to your post by saying that in my opinion the majority of French people - from all social backgrounds and origins - are more than 'a little lost' at the moment, more like 'totally confused'. The whole country is in a state of complete disarray, the economy is bad ('bad' being an understatement to describe the situation actually) and the majority of French folks still find it difficult to come to terms with the fact that they no longer have any kind of influence on a fast changing world and as a result of that no longer know where they stand culturally and socially. The pressure is mounting and all the conditions are now gathered for a cataclysm of seismic proportions to take place. One way or another shit is gonna hit the fan sooner than later over there and the consequences for France will be immense. It will leave deep scars that will take years to heal. I wouldnt want to be there when it happens because somehow i can sense that it will be very, very ugly. But maybe that's just what France needs right now, a massive shockwave that will force it to reflect on itself and make it start anew, the kind of tabula rasa effect so deeply rooted in the French psyche and cherished by so many cartesian minds, from Hausmann to Le Corbusier.
I agree that the protectionist pursuit of a kind of cultural mausoleum by the French both heightens the perception of muslims that 'native' French are racist and hate them AND heightens the almost cultural irrelevance of contemporary France. It's not possible to freeze a culture to 'protect' it from the evil english speaking nations. And the cultural freeze is clearly stifling any serious new French relevance. It's really the nasty sort of architectural preservationism at the scale of a whole country. To the extent that the French can accept and encourage a larger definition of what it means to be French, they will suceed or fail in settling muslims communities in France in a healthy (and peaceful) way. The future of Europe will mostly have to do with immigration and it's up to EU countries to decide whether they're willing to change or whether they want to stay rigid and die slowly.
The French are cool - - - and some of those Indians had it coming.
Integration is the key - but Muslims the world over are having a hard time integrating. I don't think the problem is the patriarchal issue - look at how the Northern Indians treat their women. - - - I'm going back to deodorant as the underlying causality. If either party started wearing some of the under arm variety - integration would be somewhat less funky.
thenewworld you said something that is super important
Im interestedi n this subject, which is:
IMMIGRATION
Europe is a dying continent. They can hardly reproduce themselves, and this is the reason they need so many immigrants.
The Italians are pretty bad about it, and in soem corneres they are very xenophobic.
Lets not single out the French, the Spaniards, Italians, Dutch, etc...
are suffering from he same ill...
So nice to see my alias written hundreds of times for once! (just kidding).
Well guys, gals, I 've just witnessed one of the most violent scene in my whole: a guy beaten up like hell by four others. You know what's goin' on right now in Paris? The cops are out in Aulnay kicking these kids asses once more, and it's freeplay for all inbound. There's a very strange atmosphere tonight outside, something actually quite scary. I don't think the big night is tonight, but it could pretty much be the start of something. Something a bit like what Doberman described.
For the rest, well, it's nice to read such good descriptions of the mess that is France, and consequently I'm afraid, Europe in general, especially after the defeat of the European constitution. Thanks for your views on all that. It's nice to have personal and well informed poitn of views. It changes from our usual self esteem that we can read all day long in the paper.
I dont think it will be that bad though,
THe 60's in this country were similar, and there always was a fear of the "big one". This country was one big, fat mess. Riots, protests, cops beating and even killing people, And I think we were able to go through it all, with only a few bruises.
I think it will be hard, but Maybe this will cause Europe to wake up to their real situation.
I think the analysis has been good- but:
Poor parisians in the banlieu does not equal muslim. Yes i think we can agree that many are perhaps of North African origin- but these are not religious extremists, and they may be muslim or not. That seems to be irrelevant here.
Bizzarely it reminds me of a pretty trashy french film that came out recently-
Banlieu 14 or something, where the police get so woried by the troubles of the suburb that they build a massive wall around the whole thing, and then try and blow them up.
France seems to tread a fine balance between racism and i think a genuine desire to engineer an equal footing for all. On paper at least.
For instance going back to the banning of wearing religious headwear in schools- it was a move aimed at removing religion from the agenda, and in one sense was a good idea, but could so easily be taken as racist, as a way of creating conformity, rather than celebrating diversity. Then on the other hand in Paris right in the centre is the insitut du monde arab. I think france has actually been more succesful and more tolerant of muslims than many others. I think the riots are about poverty, not religion in this case. France isnt a great supporter of the poor, but then there are so many other places this could have happened.
i've also witnessed open hostility between security forces/metro cops/police etc. towards 'les bad boys' on the street in the banlieues and in Paris, and i don't doubt for a second the impact of instituionalised discrimination/racism in what is already an excessively beauracratic country. though that said, there seems alot of positives in France too, racial strereotypes will never fully die, but they certianly seem less rife in France compared to the united states, where maybe government policy is better, but general cultural attitudes are not. personally i feel there is something seriously wrong when police/security can show open hostility discriminatorialy, but there is also something deeply concerning about the ingrained racial stereotyping between black+white america, that equally holds multiculturalism back.
I root for all poor people, no matter their religion or color, who have been alienated by their governments.
So I am rooting for the rioters in France.
By that i mean i root for the establishment to open their eyes and see that depriving the less fortunate of opportunities to better themselves, living-wage jobs and full economic inclusion is in no way a sustainable way to run a society.
I support the actions of the riotors because there are times when extreme actions are called for. The effects of France neglecting its colonialist past and their insistance on marginalizing and isolating their immigrant populations in ghettos removed from Paris has gone unoticed for decades...
...until these riots and the coverage by the international press.
See how quickly the need for self presevation casues the french government to recognize their racial diversity and begin to think about their need to begin to make real changes. For the sake of the many other potential ticking time bombs that may be out there, i sure hope Chirac does something soon.
I wonder what Interior Minister and presidential hopeful Nicolas Sarkozy who called the rioters "scum" and "louts and hooligans" thinks of these people?
Ive been living in the 18th for two months now and havent seen much that even hinted at the riots in the past week or so. I have noticed some tension in the streets but it could be that i just dont know this place nearly well enough to sense the subtle changes that have gone on.
I agree with you Suture of supporting people in attempting to make their poor living conditions and terrible treatment known to the government and the world in a real way. I have to disagree with the tactics though when they start burning schools and ambulances while attempting to attack the medics as well.
as jacques pepin said, sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette and right now those french minorities are cooking up their piece de resistance.
"Inspired by the "liberty, equality, fraternity" motto of its 1789 revolution, the French republic officially rejects any consideration of race, creed or color that could undermine national unity.
It asks immigrants to integrate by forgetting their roots and becoming like the French, rather than the less ambitious view in countries such as Britain and the United States that newcomers should learn English, obey the law and pay taxes." reuters
the poor can become oppressors themselves. oppressors who wield endless, thoughtless, non-negoitiable violence and instead of winning reform, simply make their own and everyone else's lives miserable. i note you don't have any pictures of, say, the 25 year Angolan civil war in there... and yet you show pictures of rosa parks and nelson mandela, who did not condone violence to achieve reform.
myriam, what else are ppl to do when they have absolutely no power, are ignored, isolated, confined, and disrepected? i'm not an advocate of violence, but i certainly understand why this is happening. they feel like they don't have much else to lose and nothing else has worked to this point.
"A ghetto is an area where people from a specific ethnic background or united in a given culture or religion live as a group, voluntarily or involuntarily, in milder or stricter seclusion. The word historically referred to restricted housing zones where Jews were required to live; however, it now commonly labels any poverty-stricken urban area.
Ghettos in post-WWII France
There are "ghettos" in modern France. The poorer banlieues, or suburbs, of France, especially those of Paris, house a largely Muslim (and impoverished) population that is routinely discriminated against in the job market, as well as, allegedly, by the police. (There are, however, affluent banlieues near Paris as well.)"
exactly what the blacks did here in the 60s: use the political process to fight back against institutionalized racism and to increase favorable public opinion of your group. The situation in France currently is pretty similar to here in the 60s; with the exception that at the very least France has a commitment to maintaining the health and welfare of its citizens (including those in the ghettos) with national programs for the poor whereas there is nothing like that for the poor in America. The poor French also receive free job training and a better education (by many standards) than the poor do here (and in the 60s, blacks didn't even get that).
My point is, the problem in France is that the gov't looks the other way when the police harrass the muslims, or they don't get jobs, etc. A lot of this is caused by very entrenched xenophobia on the part of the French populace. A good way to fight that is the same way Martin Luther King did--with peace, and a long quiet fight of working your hardest to change people's perceptions by showing them that they're wrong.
By acting out in violence, these youths are simply perpetuating the same stereotypes and fears that are causing the French to support strong police surveillance, etcetera, of them in the first place. They are doing nothing but setting their cause, and the cause their parents have worked so hard for, back. You better believe Sarkozy's going to get a huge voter turnout in the next election.
I remember when I first visited Europe and noticed all over Europe, but in particular Paris, how many immigrants there were. Many years later and being more educated I think much of it has to do with integration. All my life I've lived near immigrants. Growing up I remember the Laotian family behind our house. Aside from an accent they were as much apple pie Americans as anyone else. They had a neighborhood BBQ on the 4th of July. They came to America looking for a better life, yes, but they also loved the country. Many times over I've met similar people in our American culture. Granted, that's not everyone who comes to America, but the melting pot indeed is alive & well. I didn't see that in Europe. I'm sure both sides are to blame, but there is a problem over there.
rutger, abracadabra
banlieue is the french word for suburb. it does not mean ghetto in any way. i hate the systematically negative connotation now associated with that word in the french language, for there are as many posh 'banlieues' as there are poor ones over there. it annoys me that people always tend to assimilate french suburbs with bad 60's and 70's real estate developments. historically there's always been a very rich cultural and social dimension to the french suburban life so it should never be reduced to its ugliest side. Architecture certainly does play a part in what is happening over there, however in my opinion the lack of jobs and opportunities remains the main reason why the kids have been out on the streets breaking stuff and burning shit for the last 10 days. a lot of them feel ostracized and as a result of this vent their anger in this rather nihilistic way just to remind everybody that they exist and shoudn't be left out.
doberman, having lived in one of istanbul's, i know what banliyo is. but here, i am rebroadcasting reuters from the ghettos.. yes gehettos, and that is disassociated from 'banlieues'.
and, if yourself or relatives living in one of the good ones all the better for you and them.
but stop denying, this people are from systematic ghettos. they have minus the liberty, equality, fraternity and then some.
nihilistic or not, the great problem in europe has been exposed.
CAULNAY-SOUS-BOIS
Let's see if we can justify this behavior...In a nutshell:
1. Two criminals electrocute themselves running from police (who chase criminals)
2. Muslim youth unite and torch ghetto they are from, and assault police.
I'm confused, do muslims prefer living in burned out slums, or is mental illness so rampant, that they cannot deal with loss. Also, how is the french government responsible for their deplorable living conditions? Furthermore, how is the muslim community going to get anywhere with such a record of unreasonable ideas and behavior?
Story (Fox News)
stay confused..
No wonder you are confused, you get your views from Fox News!
C'mon, help me out. Make sense of this Abra.
I'd say "stay 50" but we both know that's impossible.
archangel, why would 'muslims' prefer living in burned out slums? who would?
your post kind of reminded me chief darral gates' statements after los angeles riots.
let me ask you one question. how is the muslim community get anywhere in europe, with outright racist generalizations and social injustice against them?
as it is briefly mentioned in another post, this racial divide is commonly used by opportunistic european politicians, namely in germany, france, holland, austria, denmark, sweden and to some degree in italy and england to gain votes and power.
i'd say you look into that, if you are interested in finding some answers.
To me the situation is clearly set by 30 years of unadmited segragationist politcs in the whole europe, particularly in countries with a strong colonial presence, such as France for instance.
Immigration is needed at one moment in history because there is a lot of work in the construction industry for example. Cities are built to house the newcomers. Work is done, population stays, with no more work to do. Fortunately, this population has been isolated in a badly planned and built remote city outbounds. Two generations pass, still no work, thus people get angry. Whenever there's a problem, governement shows its muscle, but there's more and more people with anger. At some point, the situatio gets worst an worst.
To me it's as simple as that.
oh and by the way is Aulnay-sous-bois. Hope Fox did get that right. I didn't have the courage to click on the link.
I am just saying that, from an outwardly (and uneducated view), what I've seen of the muslim community in my life is:
-174 olympic assasinations
-misc plane hijackings
-WTC bombings (1993, 2001)
-Suicide bombings in Spain, London, Bali
-Beslan School bombing / massacre
-Beheading of Catholic school girls in indonesia
-riots in paris
The underlying question is, what are they doing to change the perception of the culture/religion?
What came first, prejudice, or proliferation psychotic homicide/suicide?
With each day and new example of terror, I am at a loss of how we can grow to understand....
ArchAngel, what are you doing to change the perception of your culture/religion?
I don't want to start another useless discussion on that, but I'm not sure the reaction of the occidental world (particularly the UK and USof A) to the 911 events as been particularly useful. Not to help people forget about three centuries of colonialism, slavery and global control on population of smaller and poorer countries.
Which prejudice came first?
Arch Angel
Are you really this simple or are you showing off for Archinect?
You can make a list like that out of any group/people/country.
This reminds me of the 60's in the USA (or at least what I've read about them). The Muslims want real chances to advance in society, they are fed up, the racism and xenophobia is gonna kill europe, and send it to war like it has many times before.
Oh, by the way ArchAngel, remember about 5 years ago when spaniards set an African/Muslim community ablaze?
There is something bad brewing in Europe.
Christians:
-The crusades
-The inquisition
-Witch trials/burnings
-Anti-semitism in most of europe
-KKK
-Abortion clinic bombers
-Neo Nazis (and the original variety)
Just compare these riots (no human casualities by the way) to recent events that you probably haven't heard on Fox news of and that happened at the border of a small territory belonging to Spain, but part of Morocco (i believe) called Ceuta a few weeks ago. A group of central African try to break the frontier to get a better life in Europe. They suffer a brutal repression and are deported by Moroccan police IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT with no shoes, no food no water. Now, I'm not blaming Spain or Morocco in particular. I'm just looking for an exemple of injustice plainly organized by a Western country to protect it's territory by any means from a population it doesn't to see, and from problems it doesn't want to aknowledge. Just like a few users of this forum.
The USA:
-Mass Killing of Native Americans
-Enslavement of Africans
-Stealing land from Mexico
-Colonizing and using foreing cultures
-Meddling in Latin american affairs (stealing Panama from Colombia, Supporting bloody dictartors in: Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua, Cuba (Batista), Iraq (when convenient), Saudi Arabia, the stan countries)
-Bombings/War/Colonialism
I am saying this as an MAerican and a Christian, and I do love both qualifiers.
Dont be simple minded and ignorant Arch Angel
brought to you by: Fat American
has anyone looked into the situation that is or was going on in the Netherlands? it seems - from the little i've heard - that Holland has a very liberal immigration policy and to the delight of many dutchies people came in droves. the problem is it seems that many poor muslims, and very religious muslims, have migrated to Holland. well, that isn't really the problem, but the problem that Holland seems to be having is that muslim extremists have handcuffed the native Dutch from criticizing anything muslim, islamic, religious, etc...some have been assasinated because of their comments, some live under the threat of assasination. holland is now or was considering changing their immigration policies, because of the threat. Have things changed? Can anyone say for sure that this threat is isolated? What are the thoughts from abroad? Am I missing more to this story?
Of course, I wasn't implying that religious extremist aren't dangerous. But I don't think the situation in Aulnay has anything to do with it. It has to do with a repressive and stupid policy toward a desperate youth with nothing to hope for. I just talk from the point of view of a French citizen that just plainly hate it's governement, and that's probably the only thing i have in common with the rioters of Aulnay.
now there's some compasionate conservativitism.
compasionate conservatism?
"There is something bad brewing in Europe." melquiades.
yes.. again.. but, much more complex and ignited. i don't wish it..
something else.
the new pope said " muslim turkey does not belong to europe". that statement in itself is very well heard in muslim world, not only as a political statement, but also as an irresponsible and aggressive opinion coming from a pope, who is supposed to guide the christian world towards spirituality, peace and love.
his was just an example about the depth of divide and level of understanding.
mr. sarkozy (french minister and presidential runner) called electricuted muslim kids, "punks".
As an american who lived in France for 4 years, with many muslim friends (well their parents were muslim, from Algeria or Morocco), I definitely witnessed much more open racism and hostility between French & Immigrant youth than anything I'd ever experienced here. I think it's hard to grasp if you have not directly experienced the situation, and I would say it took me a few years even to touch the surface of the ingrained French culture and how it reacts when confronted with different cultures and social situations that do not conform to recent history.
Imagine the relationship that exists in the inner city between the african american community & the cops here - just say it's something similar in France, but with a lot more tension and misunderstanding on both sides (at least that was my observation). Paris is a difficult place for anyone to live, even my white French friends who were born there - 'French'you might want to elaborate, but it can be difficult to find work and there's a very strong class hierarchy that exists in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. The kids that are rioting are physically and culturally isolated from opportunity - not only that but they are constantly told they are worthless and will never have any chance of living the 'French' lifestyle that they can glimpse on a trip into Paris - Champs Elysees, Les Halles, etc...
I personally was assaulted on more than one occasion by angry people who probably thought I was French (at that time anyway- 10 years ago - when people found out I was from LA they usually changed their demeanor entirely and became much more friendly or left me alone ). I also had a chance to see what life was like in the cites(projects), to hang out with people in their mid twenties, a lot of whom were planning for families and trying to figure out how they were going to work and what they wanted for their children.
I came away from living there not feeling racist towards muslims or north africans (though of course there are forms of the religion I despise and particularly did not appreciate the way some of my female friends were treated by their families - very patriarchal), but understanding at the very least the frustration that a lot of people feel and the difficulties the French government, and people, have to face - the culture is much older than ours, somewhat less tolerant, and I think a lot of French people are feeling a little lost (esp. older generation) when it comes to a changing Europe & world.
Spot on analysis R.A Rudolph.
I would just add to your post by saying that in my opinion the majority of French people - from all social backgrounds and origins - are more than 'a little lost' at the moment, more like 'totally confused'. The whole country is in a state of complete disarray, the economy is bad ('bad' being an understatement to describe the situation actually) and the majority of French folks still find it difficult to come to terms with the fact that they no longer have any kind of influence on a fast changing world and as a result of that no longer know where they stand culturally and socially. The pressure is mounting and all the conditions are now gathered for a cataclysm of seismic proportions to take place. One way or another shit is gonna hit the fan sooner than later over there and the consequences for France will be immense. It will leave deep scars that will take years to heal. I wouldnt want to be there when it happens because somehow i can sense that it will be very, very ugly. But maybe that's just what France needs right now, a massive shockwave that will force it to reflect on itself and make it start anew, the kind of tabula rasa effect so deeply rooted in the French psyche and cherished by so many cartesian minds, from Hausmann to Le Corbusier.
I agree that the protectionist pursuit of a kind of cultural mausoleum by the French both heightens the perception of muslims that 'native' French are racist and hate them AND heightens the almost cultural irrelevance of contemporary France. It's not possible to freeze a culture to 'protect' it from the evil english speaking nations. And the cultural freeze is clearly stifling any serious new French relevance. It's really the nasty sort of architectural preservationism at the scale of a whole country. To the extent that the French can accept and encourage a larger definition of what it means to be French, they will suceed or fail in settling muslims communities in France in a healthy (and peaceful) way. The future of Europe will mostly have to do with immigration and it's up to EU countries to decide whether they're willing to change or whether they want to stay rigid and die slowly.
The French are cool - - - and some of those Indians had it coming.
Integration is the key - but Muslims the world over are having a hard time integrating. I don't think the problem is the patriarchal issue - look at how the Northern Indians treat their women. - - - I'm going back to deodorant as the underlying causality. If either party started wearing some of the under arm variety - integration would be somewhat less funky.
thenewworld you said something that is super important
Im interestedi n this subject, which is:
IMMIGRATION
Europe is a dying continent. They can hardly reproduce themselves, and this is the reason they need so many immigrants.
The Italians are pretty bad about it, and in soem corneres they are very xenophobic.
Lets not single out the French, the Spaniards, Italians, Dutch, etc...
are suffering from he same ill...
So nice to see my alias written hundreds of times for once! (just kidding).
Well guys, gals, I 've just witnessed one of the most violent scene in my whole: a guy beaten up like hell by four others. You know what's goin' on right now in Paris? The cops are out in Aulnay kicking these kids asses once more, and it's freeplay for all inbound. There's a very strange atmosphere tonight outside, something actually quite scary. I don't think the big night is tonight, but it could pretty much be the start of something. Something a bit like what Doberman described.
For the rest, well, it's nice to read such good descriptions of the mess that is France, and consequently I'm afraid, Europe in general, especially after the defeat of the European constitution. Thanks for your views on all that. It's nice to have personal and well informed poitn of views. It changes from our usual self esteem that we can read all day long in the paper.
I dont think it will be that bad though,
THe 60's in this country were similar, and there always was a fear of the "big one". This country was one big, fat mess. Riots, protests, cops beating and even killing people, And I think we were able to go through it all, with only a few bruises.
I think it will be hard, but Maybe this will cause Europe to wake up to their real situation.
oh and by this coutnry I mean USA
I think the analysis has been good- but:
Poor parisians in the banlieu does not equal muslim. Yes i think we can agree that many are perhaps of North African origin- but these are not religious extremists, and they may be muslim or not. That seems to be irrelevant here.
Bizzarely it reminds me of a pretty trashy french film that came out recently-
Banlieu 14 or something, where the police get so woried by the troubles of the suburb that they build a massive wall around the whole thing, and then try and blow them up.
France seems to tread a fine balance between racism and i think a genuine desire to engineer an equal footing for all. On paper at least.
For instance going back to the banning of wearing religious headwear in schools- it was a move aimed at removing religion from the agenda, and in one sense was a good idea, but could so easily be taken as racist, as a way of creating conformity, rather than celebrating diversity. Then on the other hand in Paris right in the centre is the insitut du monde arab. I think france has actually been more succesful and more tolerant of muslims than many others. I think the riots are about poverty, not religion in this case. France isnt a great supporter of the poor, but then there are so many other places this could have happened.
you could probably elaborate a bit French, but is it fair to say these problems have been brewing for the better part of 25 years? My guess is that Islam has little to do with it, that its more the institutionalised discrimination, particulary towards 2nd/3rd generation north-africans, as well as the phsyical/cultural isolation (as someone mentioned) of the cité environments; even if the french public school system is able to provide education (including priority zones etc. that they have), most kids still can't get a job etc etc.
i've also witnessed open hostility between security forces/metro cops/police etc. towards 'les bad boys' on the street in the banlieues and in Paris, and i don't doubt for a second the impact of instituionalised discrimination/racism in what is already an excessively beauracratic country. though that said, there seems alot of positives in France too, racial strereotypes will never fully die, but they certianly seem less rife in France compared to the united states, where maybe government policy is better, but general cultural attitudes are not. personally i feel there is something seriously wrong when police/security can show open hostility discriminatorialy, but there is also something deeply concerning about the ingrained racial stereotyping between black+white america, that equally holds multiculturalism back.
ap-love that link. except for the fact that my company does a lot of work for am general. your supersource for hummers.
dont forget this one-www.mc.cc.md.us/Departments/hpolscrv/VdeLaOliva.html
Paris is burning again:
I root for all poor people, no matter their religion or color, who have been alienated by their governments.
So I am rooting for the rioters in France.
By that i mean i root for the establishment to open their eyes and see that depriving the less fortunate of opportunities to better themselves, living-wage jobs and full economic inclusion is in no way a sustainable way to run a society.
I support the actions of the riotors because there are times when extreme actions are called for. The effects of France neglecting its colonialist past and their insistance on marginalizing and isolating their immigrant populations in ghettos removed from Paris has gone unoticed for decades...
...until these riots and the coverage by the international press.
See how quickly the need for self presevation casues the french government to recognize their racial diversity and begin to think about their need to begin to make real changes. For the sake of the many other potential ticking time bombs that may be out there, i sure hope Chirac does something soon.
I wonder what Interior Minister and presidential hopeful Nicolas Sarkozy who called the rioters "scum" and "louts and hooligans" thinks of these people?
French what arrondisement are you in?
Ive been living in the 18th for two months now and havent seen much that even hinted at the riots in the past week or so. I have noticed some tension in the streets but it could be that i just dont know this place nearly well enough to sense the subtle changes that have gone on.
I agree with you Suture of supporting people in attempting to make their poor living conditions and terrible treatment known to the government and the world in a real way. I have to disagree with the tactics though when they start burning schools and ambulances while attempting to attack the medics as well.
yeah hooray for those rioters who set that woman on crutches ablaze. tres fuckin bien.
as jacques pepin said, sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette and right now those french minorities are cooking up their piece de resistance.
yeah just pray they dont cook you.
French integration model fails- Reuters headline
"Inspired by the "liberty, equality, fraternity" motto of its 1789 revolution, the French republic officially rejects any consideration of race, creed or color that could undermine national unity.
It asks immigrants to integrate by forgetting their roots and becoming like the French, rather than the less ambitious view in countries such as Britain and the United States that newcomers should learn English, obey the law and pay taxes."
reuters
nice one abra
viva le salad bowl.
suture,
the poor can become oppressors themselves. oppressors who wield endless, thoughtless, non-negoitiable violence and instead of winning reform, simply make their own and everyone else's lives miserable. i note you don't have any pictures of, say, the 25 year Angolan civil war in there... and yet you show pictures of rosa parks and nelson mandela, who did not condone violence to achieve reform.
myriam, what else are ppl to do when they have absolutely no power, are ignored, isolated, confined, and disrepected? i'm not an advocate of violence, but i certainly understand why this is happening. they feel like they don't have much else to lose and nothing else has worked to this point.
What role do architecture and urbanism play in these problems?
All the banlieus seem to lookalike, with the same depressing flats and similar urban layouts. Any thoughts about this?
rutger, it is the g word; (wikipedia standart)
"A ghetto is an area where people from a specific ethnic background or united in a given culture or religion live as a group, voluntarily or involuntarily, in milder or stricter seclusion. The word historically referred to restricted housing zones where Jews were required to live; however, it now commonly labels any poverty-stricken urban area.
Ghettos in post-WWII France
There are "ghettos" in modern France. The poorer banlieues, or suburbs, of France, especially those of Paris, house a largely Muslim (and impoverished) population that is routinely discriminated against in the job market, as well as, allegedly, by the police. (There are, however, affluent banlieues near Paris as well.)"
e,
exactly what the blacks did here in the 60s: use the political process to fight back against institutionalized racism and to increase favorable public opinion of your group. The situation in France currently is pretty similar to here in the 60s; with the exception that at the very least France has a commitment to maintaining the health and welfare of its citizens (including those in the ghettos) with national programs for the poor whereas there is nothing like that for the poor in America. The poor French also receive free job training and a better education (by many standards) than the poor do here (and in the 60s, blacks didn't even get that).
My point is, the problem in France is that the gov't looks the other way when the police harrass the muslims, or they don't get jobs, etc. A lot of this is caused by very entrenched xenophobia on the part of the French populace. A good way to fight that is the same way Martin Luther King did--with peace, and a long quiet fight of working your hardest to change people's perceptions by showing them that they're wrong.
By acting out in violence, these youths are simply perpetuating the same stereotypes and fears that are causing the French to support strong police surveillance, etcetera, of them in the first place. They are doing nothing but setting their cause, and the cause their parents have worked so hard for, back. You better believe Sarkozy's going to get a huge voter turnout in the next election.
peace isn't sexy but it sure works better to combat racism than violence does in the long run.
Shall we live in interesting times...
I remember when I first visited Europe and noticed all over Europe, but in particular Paris, how many immigrants there were. Many years later and being more educated I think much of it has to do with integration. All my life I've lived near immigrants. Growing up I remember the Laotian family behind our house. Aside from an accent they were as much apple pie Americans as anyone else. They had a neighborhood BBQ on the 4th of July. They came to America looking for a better life, yes, but they also loved the country. Many times over I've met similar people in our American culture. Granted, that's not everyone who comes to America, but the melting pot indeed is alive & well. I didn't see that in Europe. I'm sure both sides are to blame, but there is a problem over there.
This Paris business is yet ANOTHER example of why it's idiotic urbanistically to concentrate poverty or anything else for that matter.
(gmail firewall down?)
rutger, abracadabra
banlieue is the french word for suburb. it does not mean ghetto in any way. i hate the systematically negative connotation now associated with that word in the french language, for there are as many posh 'banlieues' as there are poor ones over there. it annoys me that people always tend to assimilate french suburbs with bad 60's and 70's real estate developments. historically there's always been a very rich cultural and social dimension to the french suburban life so it should never be reduced to its ugliest side. Architecture certainly does play a part in what is happening over there, however in my opinion the lack of jobs and opportunities remains the main reason why the kids have been out on the streets breaking stuff and burning shit for the last 10 days. a lot of them feel ostracized and as a result of this vent their anger in this rather nihilistic way just to remind everybody that they exist and shoudn't be left out.
I think being asked for your papers 3 or 4 times a day has a lot to do with it...
The architecture isn't that bad, I think, personally. Some of it bad, some of it good... We're not talking Pruitt-Igoe here...
doberman, having lived in one of istanbul's, i know what banliyo is. but here, i am rebroadcasting reuters from the ghettos.. yes gehettos, and that is disassociated from 'banlieues'.
and, if yourself or relatives living in one of the good ones all the better for you and them.
but stop denying, this people are from systematic ghettos. they have minus the liberty, equality, fraternity and then some.
nihilistic or not, the great problem in europe has been exposed.
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