I'm in my 3rd year of graduate school - Will have my M.Arch in April.
I've had 4 summers of experience in an architectural firm.
Couple wants me to draft up Plans, Sections, Elevations of their home, approx 5,000 sq ft. Any Idea on what I charge them? The couple wants to pay a flat fee for each stage - i.e. plans, then sections, then elevations.
I'm pretty quick on CAD.... I was thinking it would take me 20 hours on plans, 15 hours on sections and 10 hours on elevations - maybe $15 an hour?
1. you'll need to work all of the drawings together, so plans, sections, elevations are not 'stages'.
2. have you been responsible for the putting together (not just drafting) of a construction set before? it's very seldom a start-at-the-beginning-keep-going-til-you're-done process. there will be lots of back and forth, revision, and coordination. don't underestimate your time in the front end.
3. i don't know where you are but....well, $15 an hour is cheap no matter where you are.
if i'm not mistaken, uncle sam will want taxes on what you are doing at the end of the year. budget that into things. maybe 30 an hour?
seriously though, 5000 sf home for 600 dollars? absolutely ridiculously low number. if these people can afford a 5000 sf home, they can afford to pay you way more.
it this just a rough plan on cad, kind of a programing / design,
or that is the price for a construction set,?? traditional or custom??
what about revision detail, engineer , going back and forth to the city, i dont think you can make the dwg in that amount of time including design, , doesnt matter how fast are you in CAD
this is not discourage you , but dotn make promises that are very difficoult to follow...i make that mistake a lot, and always get complaining form my coworker bosses etc, besides if you submit dwg you can not control thebldg dept...
It isn't clear from your post - and the responses - whether you're talking about drawing existing conditions of an existing 5000 sf house, or construction documents for a new or renovated house.
If you're talking about drawings of something existing - i.e. measured record drawings - then even $15 per hour is a bit higher than what some drafting operations will charge for this.
If you're talking about construction drawings then: it somewhat depends where. If you're still in school presumably these clients are considering hiring a student because they're looking for a deal. So if your local small firms are charging $50 per hour for their staff's time then the client probably won't want to pay that and is probably expecting a bargain. You need to consider what this will cost you - remember that you'll be owing about 1/3 of whatever you collect just in taxes and social security as an independent contractor.
Also: if you're talking about construction documents, a local building inspector has the option of asking for drawings - most often sections - sealed by an architect or engineer. This is true even if the state allows residential construction without a license. It's always the option of the local inspector to require sealed structural drawings and/or calculations if they deem it necessary - and they frequently do deem it necessary when a young or student designer is involved! So: you need to explain to your client that this MAY be necessary, that you are not registered, and that if this may entail more expense on their or your part to have a registered architect or engineer thoroughly review the design and seal at least one section. That alone may run over $1000 in consultant's fees - so make sure that the client understands that if this comes up it's THEIR expense and not to come out of your
its a brand new custom home .. they want someone to draft up their ideas - they have pictures and sketches they have done. they will then bring my drawings to an architect for them to do CD's, etc. I'm basically doing the beginning stages for them. These are no way going to be sent to a contractor to be built, or have any type of official notes on them.
yes, i'll work on all 3 together, they just wanted a flat fee for each set of drawings...
it has nothing to do with going to the city, just basic design and drawing....
It strikes me that your potential clients are either very unsophisticated about the process....or very sophisticated. Either condition means that you should not put yourself in the position of giving them a flat fee that allows them to burn your time with endless decision making.
They're trying to be shrewd by out-sourcing the schematic design, be aware of that.
Quote them an hourly rate only.
make sure you take a retainer/advance, whatever you charge them. People usually love to give you work and hate to pay you money!
I bet a lot of people on this forum will agree!
It would even make sense to charge for stages (if plans,sections,elevations are stages, so be it- you can do them together(rough) and finish them stage wise) That way you'll be sure they have the intention to pay you!
...or quote them a fixed fee that does not exceed a certain number of hours. You'll have to keep them posted on the progress of the design as well as the number of hours you've spent working on it this way but you'll both be getting what you want. That way, if they get sucked into the vortex of indecision you won't be stuck with them. Also, if they do exceed the number of hours you agreed upon, you need to be firm and stop working until you reach another agreement with them about your continued compensation.
I would not take this job unless you are desperate for money &/or some kind of freelance experience, but with the latter I think it'd be more worth your time to do free work for family or friends. The reason is that these people are obviously hiring you because they want a deal, and not just a little deal, but a massive savings, meaning they are extremely cheap, meaning (based on my experience) total pains in the ass!
They probably do not understand the complexity of the process (seeing as how they are trusting a student to work out their designs & do as-builts), and if they end up taking your plans to an architect they will most likely have to pay the architect again for work you've already done anyway. More importantly, if it's a new 5,000 sq.ft. home but they want to 'design' it with a little input from you, and not hire the actual professional architect to do the design, that means they want a tract house, and will you be able to work with clients that want that? We've done some 'design' (drafting) on tract house type stuff, and it worked out fine, but the clients hired us because we were friends with the contractor, not because it was going to save them money, and we went into it knowing we were only going to spend a few hours (really) on the design. Thye clients were also very nice and easy going, and really didn't want anything other than to match their existing house - but these things you learn to be able to judge by experience and we've also now learned never to take a job from anyone who questions our fees or seems like they're looking for a deal.
If you do decide to do it, I make sure to write up a decent contract (see previous discussions here about what to include), and if you're doing it for a fixed fee be sure to add in there that they only get three options for each stage (or whatever you want to limit it to), and if they go over that than you will charge them hourly. Starting off trying to charge hourly with this type of client, who has already asked for a fixed fee and wants to save money by hiring a student, is dangerous, because they are very likely to complain you're overcharging them once they feel they have 'paid you enough' (we've actually had a client say that before even though they signed an open-ended hourly contract and could not make up thier mind about anything).
To make a long story short, it's really not the type of job that's worth $15 an hour, or even $25 really, but if you need the money ask for at least $25, go for it and just chalk it up to a learning experience...
great responses guys, i really appreciate it. keep them comming.
The couple is very successful, the wife a lawyer, and the husband dealing with finance. They have 6 acres of land, and a 5,000 sqft house an't cheap. So I'm not quite sure EXACTLY why they want a student to help with the initial design, but it would be great for me to do something like this.
in short, i need the money. furthermore, i also want to use this as a learning experience dealing with a client, and how the communication process works in order to achieve the ultimate goal of producing a design that works - both with the architect (circulation, etc) and the client.
I'll definetly do up a contract, and for sure write down a flat fee - however, not to exceed a certain amount of hours. I'll also ask for a retainer up front. I'm thinking $25 an hour.
How many hours do you think it will take to design 5,000 sq ft in floor plans? sections? elevations? I'm very good with CAD.
you are not sure why they'd want a student? think about that for a moment. if they are going to an architect, then why bother with the sections? the architect will need to either redraw or expand on the detailing anyway. charge them 1500 for plans and elevations, with one change allowed.
you have to research the city requirements (bldg dept, planning and so on ) and meet with the clients a bunch of times, this is the MOST IMPORTANT part of thee process, really the most important, maybe they want a student because they want fresh ideas, but maybe because they dont understand the process well and want to save some money, are you going to give them 3D renders,
this is a good experience but dont let them abuse you.
you have to research the city requirements (bldg dept, planning and so on ) and meet with the clients a bunch of times, this is the MOST IMPORTANT part of thee process, really the most important, maybe they want a student because they want fresh ideas, but maybe because they dont understand the process well and want to save some money, are you going to give them 3D renders,
this is a good experience but dont let them abuse you.
The amount of time it will take depends on many factors, the least of which is your speed with CAD - how much of the design do they really already have figured out? How many options are they going to want? How many times will they change their mind? Are you going to go to the local bdlg dept to figure out what they can do? This can be very time consuming & you can easily make mistakes (although if it's in a rural area it'll be a lot easier than if it were in a large city). Do they want you to literally just draw what they want, or do they want your design input? Do they expect you to come up with ideas for interior finishes (even though they're only asking for plans, sections & elevations), structural systems & exterior materials, or is it purely the schematic idea phase? Are they going to want a model? (it sounds like they don't, which I think is a bid mistake - clients have a very hard time grasping what drawings really mean, even if they seem to get it). Will you be dimensioning the drawings, adding notes?
The schematic part of the design might total 20% of an architect's fees on any given project (depends on how everyone bills, but you get the idea), so if their budget is $1,000,000, and the fees are 12%(low), then the schematic portion would total $24,000. So, if you charge them a flat fee of, say, $10,000, they're still getting a massive deal - assuming they can actually use what you produce and whoever they bring it to doesn't charge them again for schematic design. Looks like you were originally planning to charge them $675 - think about it... In my experience, we generally use up all the fees in the schematic phase in actual man hours worked, and we've found that with a 10% fee we lose money (this is for custom homes, not tract houses based on plans from a book). Using my fuzzy math, it means on a project with a $1,000,000 budget (which would be the minimum cost for a 5,000 sq.ft. house we would design out here in LA), it would take approx 240 hours to complete this portion of the work (after accounting for overhead). This will sound enormous to you, but in all honesty that is a realistic number, taking into account all the client meetings, working on design options, etc. (it equals 6 weeks of full time work). I actually just looked up the numbers for a project we did with an initial budget of $350,000, and it looks like after schmatic and about 1/2 way though DD, we were at around 225 hours spent (that's also including a foam core model, but hey). Most of that time was spent designing, not drawing... everyone says they know what they want and can make decisions quickly - very few people actually can.
I can't stress enough how this type of deal is just a disaster waiting to happen - think about it, if you were going to have anything custom made, and you had the money to spend on having a professional do it, why would you hire a student? It just doesn't make sense. The ONLY reason they would do it is to save money, and this type of client is bad news. Anyways, I hate to be so cynical but it's my reality. If it works out well please let us know...
on one hand, an m.arch and four summers in architecture firms may not have given you the amount of experience to know how this process will go. RAR's descriptions ring true, but you never really know until you've been through it a few times. and hopefully when you go through it for the first time you are working under someone, not going it alone. because the best mistakes to learn from -- are other people's mistakes.
on the other hand, people sometimes hire students / young architects knowing full well that they aren't as experienced and knowledgeable -- but also knowing that students / young architects need to start somewhere and that the ideas that come from an unjaded, enthusiastic mind are sometimes worth the procedural naivete.
but let me go back to the first hand and say that i would advise that you inform your potential clients of your level of schooling and experience right away (if you haven't already). and be prepared for them to say "no thanks." and be glad when they do.
you say you need the money, but i bet you don't need the liability. in texas there is no statute of limitations for claims against non-licensed building designers. maybe this is different in your state. what this means (hope i'm not being too didactic, because i don't mean to be) is that 20 years from now, if the roof leaks they can reasonably make a claim against you. a licensed architect would be immune, since the statute of limitations is ten years for licensees.
I wouldn't worry about the liability - we've spent a lot of time stressing over it and after working for a few years and countless discussions with attorneys (family members & otherwise), the chance of you actually being sued over one residential project that you designed as a student is almost non-existent. You just have to think of this as a learning experience, which may earn you some money, but more likely will lose you some money (meaning you'll end up working for free on it because you can't charge the client for all the time it actually takes, or they'll not pay you, or something similar...). Our first three projects or so caused us major headaches, and a lot of it came from our lack of experience (both in actual design and in knowing what to expect from the clients during the process as well as how to educate them). Yes, it was probably a valuable learning experience, no I wouldn't do it over if I could choose... I would have waited for a more appropriate situation, when I had more experience working for someone else.
the risk is not that you will LOSE a lawsuit, it's that you'll become PARTY to one. who cares if you win or lose? you will spend money on lawyers, time in court, and ultimately for naught -- win, lose, or ... settle. and i don't know of a professional malpractice insurance policy that covers you retroactively.
if you think it's beyond most clients to sue a student designer, you've probably done work without a written contract too...
It takes approx. $10,000-$15,000 to go to court. In our experience, clients who are the type to sue don't even want to spend a few thousand on an attorney to begin with - we have been threatened with lawsuits in the past, and the situation has always been resolved without an attorney, mediation or anything... (other than us wringing our hands and cursing that we ever took the job in the first place).
your experience is your experience. how long have you been in business?
i don't want to belabor the subject -- this project sounds like a bad one, student designer or not -- but:
if you bought a house from someone who hired a student
and mold starts to infest your house b/c of bad flashing details or something like that (welcome to texas)
or there WERE no flashing details
or it was built off "not for construction" drawings
and you get pissed b/c you spent $1.5 million on your house
and you want to get mad and get even
and you find out who built the house and who designed it (look up the building permit at the city, etc)
you will spend 10-15 grand to go to court
in hopes that you can get 100,000 out of the contractor
and 10,000 of out of the designer.
RAR, didn't mean to sound condescending or dismissive on that one, BTW...when i said "how long have you been in business?"...toneless internet strikes again. sorry.
maybe try to find someone that's a friend with a bit more experience. someone not necessarily licensed, but with experience doing everything from pre-design to at least DDs. that way you have someone making sure things are going as they should and you'll still be right in the thick of it.
guys to be honest, i think this is nothing more than asking for drawings to convey their ideas from a student.
'not for construction' and putting notes that these are used for schematic design will hopefully dismiss me of your concerns in terms of going to court....
some other details....
i go to UF and the clients chose to pick a UF student bc they have contacts with the school ....
another detail is that the house is going to be built in Illinois, that's where the property is ... i think they just want some fresh design ideas, nothing more nothing less....
this is going to be their new 'dream' home, and are not in any rush, so maybe just throwing around some ideas with a student, spending a couple hundred bucks in the long term will allow them to think about some ideas....
you didn't take professional practice at UT, did you?
if your friends get mad when you ask for a contract -- get new friends. you're a professional and this is business.
and you and others are mistaking "can" for "will." people WILL sue for stupid reasons. our firm was sued by a guy who slipped off a ladder. for making the ceiling too high. said his johnson was "adversely affected" by our design. insurance took care of that straightaway.
an ex-boss of mine had exactly your same attitude...that's why i'm not working there anymore (among other reasons).
your method of practice sounds like driving after just a couple of drinks. you probably won't get stopped, you almost certainly won't get into an accident. but it only takes once to change your life.
Interesting discussion, as you can see there's a lot to have fun with in the world of residential design... Anyways, if it really is just them wanting to have you draw out what they're thinking so they can have a better discussion with an architect, then I think it's completely fair to just charge them an hourly rate. To give them the benefit of the doubt, you can assume they want a fixed fee because they have no idea how long it will take to have a student draw it up, and they're worried about spending too much. I would sit down with them and discuss what their expectations are, how much they have already figured out, etc. Hopefully you can get a feel for how long it would take, but if you give them a fixed number just be ready to potentially eat it...
no, wait, i'd be going against my own beliefs on that one--a seal doesn't make you an architect. my wife gets on to me for just lobbing out barbs in arguments even when i don't mean them.
you sound like you've read a lot of nietzsche, though.
i think itsa great opportunity for you to get into the architectual design world.
I would advice you not to proceed as a student particularly, but as an artist that will generate the concept for a 5000 sqrft house for wealthy people.
So get the most out of this experience, become essential to them, get paid what you deserve for generating this concept and create something cool that you and them will be proud to later see get built.
i started my career as a receptionist at the branch office of an architecture firm that was located on the second floor of a strip shopping center right above a dry cleaners...in the middle of summer...
...so i guess that's how i'll end it...
...so i guess i better re-learn how to use that damn fax machine...
people like you is why i am sitting here today making 35,000 a year after 5 years of school, when any pothead bussiness major makes at least 5000 dollars more than me!
anyway sorry for the rant....i would charge 25 at least and 50 at most....depends on what you bring to the table for them...
working as a conceptual designer/consultant is great, but if you are already talking with your client about charging by the drawing, you are already down in the cad monkey business.
if the clients will take your work to an architect after you are done, you should emphasize your production on concepts, sketches, renderings. if you can convince them, it will be a fun experience.
i agree with and/or. if this thing is gonna be handed to an architect at some point i might even try to only do renderings and perspectives (in a variety of media). it sounds like they want you help convey the idea and so renderings rather than some kind of precursor to construction documents would be more appropriate.
maybe pencil sketches, a watercolor, or even a computer rendering or two (but something more moody and idea based, not something really detailed and photoreal)
this discussion is rather worrying for someone in their final year of graduate school. Just a thought.
Nonetheless I'm thinking this cannot be production set of drawings, if that were the case I would suggest you really have a sit down with those folks and discuss it in real financial terms.
guys, all i'm doing is drawing up their ideas on CAD ... plans, sections, elevations to get them thinking about a dream home they've been planning towards for years....
it will not go to production.
its design development.
all i'm asking for is a price that would be condusive for someone in my position, and for someone who is looking for ideas
"and since the wife is a lawyer, you may want to sign a contract disclaiming your responsibility."
I'm surprised that comment didn't come earlier. In my professional practice course we were asked who would not be good to work with. Usually the person who sues people for a living would be a good choice (of someone NOT TO WORK FOR)!
So anyway. It's 4 years later. How did the work turn out? What did you end up doing/charging?
I agree -- 45$-50$/hour. Don't settle for chump change for your time and abilities.
I'm sure your friends should appreciate the fact that you're using your time, skills, and talents to design their home.
I'm sure they make a lot of money if they're in the position to be building a home. So for example if one of them is a doctor or something like that, imagine asking him/her to settle for chump change to do "free-lance" work.
What do I charge as a FreeLance Fee?
I'm in my 3rd year of graduate school - Will have my M.Arch in April.
I've had 4 summers of experience in an architectural firm.
Couple wants me to draft up Plans, Sections, Elevations of their home, approx 5,000 sq ft. Any Idea on what I charge them? The couple wants to pay a flat fee for each stage - i.e. plans, then sections, then elevations.
I'm pretty quick on CAD.... I was thinking it would take me 20 hours on plans, 15 hours on sections and 10 hours on elevations - maybe $15 an hour?
300 plan
225 section
150 elevation
Whatcha think?
Thanks.
1. you'll need to work all of the drawings together, so plans, sections, elevations are not 'stages'.
2. have you been responsible for the putting together (not just drafting) of a construction set before? it's very seldom a start-at-the-beginning-keep-going-til-you're-done process. there will be lots of back and forth, revision, and coordination. don't underestimate your time in the front end.
3. i don't know where you are but....well, $15 an hour is cheap no matter where you are.
if i'm not mistaken, uncle sam will want taxes on what you are doing at the end of the year. budget that into things. maybe 30 an hour?
seriously though, 5000 sf home for 600 dollars? absolutely ridiculously low number. if these people can afford a 5000 sf home, they can afford to pay you way more.
$45/$50 an hour
it this just a rough plan on cad, kind of a programing / design,
or that is the price for a construction set,?? traditional or custom??
what about revision detail, engineer , going back and forth to the city, i dont think you can make the dwg in that amount of time including design, , doesnt matter how fast are you in CAD
this is not discourage you , but dotn make promises that are very difficoult to follow...i make that mistake a lot, and always get complaining form my coworker bosses etc, besides if you submit dwg you can not control thebldg dept...
$40-50 seems good to me, if you are good and fast, maybe $60
you should dig in the archive for this related subject and will find tons of responses in one thread.
It isn't clear from your post - and the responses - whether you're talking about drawing existing conditions of an existing 5000 sf house, or construction documents for a new or renovated house.
If you're talking about drawings of something existing - i.e. measured record drawings - then even $15 per hour is a bit higher than what some drafting operations will charge for this.
If you're talking about construction drawings then: it somewhat depends where. If you're still in school presumably these clients are considering hiring a student because they're looking for a deal. So if your local small firms are charging $50 per hour for their staff's time then the client probably won't want to pay that and is probably expecting a bargain. You need to consider what this will cost you - remember that you'll be owing about 1/3 of whatever you collect just in taxes and social security as an independent contractor.
Also: if you're talking about construction documents, a local building inspector has the option of asking for drawings - most often sections - sealed by an architect or engineer. This is true even if the state allows residential construction without a license. It's always the option of the local inspector to require sealed structural drawings and/or calculations if they deem it necessary - and they frequently do deem it necessary when a young or student designer is involved! So: you need to explain to your client that this MAY be necessary, that you are not registered, and that if this may entail more expense on their or your part to have a registered architect or engineer thoroughly review the design and seal at least one section. That alone may run over $1000 in consultant's fees - so make sure that the client understands that if this comes up it's THEIR expense and not to come out of your
it seems than you may not be the main character in the story. your dwgs will go straight to the contractor who will build the project without you.
good point and/or.
okay, to clear this up ...
its a brand new custom home .. they want someone to draft up their ideas - they have pictures and sketches they have done. they will then bring my drawings to an architect for them to do CD's, etc. I'm basically doing the beginning stages for them. These are no way going to be sent to a contractor to be built, or have any type of official notes on them.
yes, i'll work on all 3 together, they just wanted a flat fee for each set of drawings...
it has nothing to do with going to the city, just basic design and drawing....
It strikes me that your potential clients are either very unsophisticated about the process....or very sophisticated. Either condition means that you should not put yourself in the position of giving them a flat fee that allows them to burn your time with endless decision making.
They're trying to be shrewd by out-sourcing the schematic design, be aware of that.
Quote them an hourly rate only.
make sure you take a retainer/advance, whatever you charge them. People usually love to give you work and hate to pay you money!
I bet a lot of people on this forum will agree!
It would even make sense to charge for stages (if plans,sections,elevations are stages, so be it- you can do them together(rough) and finish them stage wise) That way you'll be sure they have the intention to pay you!
...or quote them a fixed fee that does not exceed a certain number of hours. You'll have to keep them posted on the progress of the design as well as the number of hours you've spent working on it this way but you'll both be getting what you want. That way, if they get sucked into the vortex of indecision you won't be stuck with them. Also, if they do exceed the number of hours you agreed upon, you need to be firm and stop working until you reach another agreement with them about your continued compensation.
I would not take this job unless you are desperate for money &/or some kind of freelance experience, but with the latter I think it'd be more worth your time to do free work for family or friends. The reason is that these people are obviously hiring you because they want a deal, and not just a little deal, but a massive savings, meaning they are extremely cheap, meaning (based on my experience) total pains in the ass!
They probably do not understand the complexity of the process (seeing as how they are trusting a student to work out their designs & do as-builts), and if they end up taking your plans to an architect they will most likely have to pay the architect again for work you've already done anyway. More importantly, if it's a new 5,000 sq.ft. home but they want to 'design' it with a little input from you, and not hire the actual professional architect to do the design, that means they want a tract house, and will you be able to work with clients that want that? We've done some 'design' (drafting) on tract house type stuff, and it worked out fine, but the clients hired us because we were friends with the contractor, not because it was going to save them money, and we went into it knowing we were only going to spend a few hours (really) on the design. Thye clients were also very nice and easy going, and really didn't want anything other than to match their existing house - but these things you learn to be able to judge by experience and we've also now learned never to take a job from anyone who questions our fees or seems like they're looking for a deal.
If you do decide to do it, I make sure to write up a decent contract (see previous discussions here about what to include), and if you're doing it for a fixed fee be sure to add in there that they only get three options for each stage (or whatever you want to limit it to), and if they go over that than you will charge them hourly. Starting off trying to charge hourly with this type of client, who has already asked for a fixed fee and wants to save money by hiring a student, is dangerous, because they are very likely to complain you're overcharging them once they feel they have 'paid you enough' (we've actually had a client say that before even though they signed an open-ended hourly contract and could not make up thier mind about anything).
To make a long story short, it's really not the type of job that's worth $15 an hour, or even $25 really, but if you need the money ask for at least $25, go for it and just chalk it up to a learning experience...
great responses guys, i really appreciate it. keep them comming.
The couple is very successful, the wife a lawyer, and the husband dealing with finance. They have 6 acres of land, and a 5,000 sqft house an't cheap. So I'm not quite sure EXACTLY why they want a student to help with the initial design, but it would be great for me to do something like this.
in short, i need the money. furthermore, i also want to use this as a learning experience dealing with a client, and how the communication process works in order to achieve the ultimate goal of producing a design that works - both with the architect (circulation, etc) and the client.
I'll definetly do up a contract, and for sure write down a flat fee - however, not to exceed a certain amount of hours. I'll also ask for a retainer up front. I'm thinking $25 an hour.
How many hours do you think it will take to design 5,000 sq ft in floor plans? sections? elevations? I'm very good with CAD.
Thanks again.
you are not sure why they'd want a student? think about that for a moment. if they are going to an architect, then why bother with the sections? the architect will need to either redraw or expand on the detailing anyway. charge them 1500 for plans and elevations, with one change allowed.
you have to research the city requirements (bldg dept, planning and so on ) and meet with the clients a bunch of times, this is the MOST IMPORTANT part of thee process, really the most important, maybe they want a student because they want fresh ideas, but maybe because they dont understand the process well and want to save some money, are you going to give them 3D renders,
this is a good experience but dont let them abuse you.
you have to research the city requirements (bldg dept, planning and so on ) and meet with the clients a bunch of times, this is the MOST IMPORTANT part of thee process, really the most important, maybe they want a student because they want fresh ideas, but maybe because they dont understand the process well and want to save some money, are you going to give them 3D renders,
this is a good experience but dont let them abuse you.
Also i think at this point speed with CAD is not that important
is the wife hot?
The amount of time it will take depends on many factors, the least of which is your speed with CAD - how much of the design do they really already have figured out? How many options are they going to want? How many times will they change their mind? Are you going to go to the local bdlg dept to figure out what they can do? This can be very time consuming & you can easily make mistakes (although if it's in a rural area it'll be a lot easier than if it were in a large city). Do they want you to literally just draw what they want, or do they want your design input? Do they expect you to come up with ideas for interior finishes (even though they're only asking for plans, sections & elevations), structural systems & exterior materials, or is it purely the schematic idea phase? Are they going to want a model? (it sounds like they don't, which I think is a bid mistake - clients have a very hard time grasping what drawings really mean, even if they seem to get it). Will you be dimensioning the drawings, adding notes?
The schematic part of the design might total 20% of an architect's fees on any given project (depends on how everyone bills, but you get the idea), so if their budget is $1,000,000, and the fees are 12%(low), then the schematic portion would total $24,000. So, if you charge them a flat fee of, say, $10,000, they're still getting a massive deal - assuming they can actually use what you produce and whoever they bring it to doesn't charge them again for schematic design. Looks like you were originally planning to charge them $675 - think about it... In my experience, we generally use up all the fees in the schematic phase in actual man hours worked, and we've found that with a 10% fee we lose money (this is for custom homes, not tract houses based on plans from a book). Using my fuzzy math, it means on a project with a $1,000,000 budget (which would be the minimum cost for a 5,000 sq.ft. house we would design out here in LA), it would take approx 240 hours to complete this portion of the work (after accounting for overhead). This will sound enormous to you, but in all honesty that is a realistic number, taking into account all the client meetings, working on design options, etc. (it equals 6 weeks of full time work). I actually just looked up the numbers for a project we did with an initial budget of $350,000, and it looks like after schmatic and about 1/2 way though DD, we were at around 225 hours spent (that's also including a foam core model, but hey). Most of that time was spent designing, not drawing... everyone says they know what they want and can make decisions quickly - very few people actually can.
I can't stress enough how this type of deal is just a disaster waiting to happen - think about it, if you were going to have anything custom made, and you had the money to spend on having a professional do it, why would you hire a student? It just doesn't make sense. The ONLY reason they would do it is to save money, and this type of client is bad news. Anyways, I hate to be so cynical but it's my reality. If it works out well please let us know...
on one hand, an m.arch and four summers in architecture firms may not have given you the amount of experience to know how this process will go. RAR's descriptions ring true, but you never really know until you've been through it a few times. and hopefully when you go through it for the first time you are working under someone, not going it alone. because the best mistakes to learn from -- are other people's mistakes.
on the other hand, people sometimes hire students / young architects knowing full well that they aren't as experienced and knowledgeable -- but also knowing that students / young architects need to start somewhere and that the ideas that come from an unjaded, enthusiastic mind are sometimes worth the procedural naivete.
but let me go back to the first hand and say that i would advise that you inform your potential clients of your level of schooling and experience right away (if you haven't already). and be prepared for them to say "no thanks." and be glad when they do.
you say you need the money, but i bet you don't need the liability. in texas there is no statute of limitations for claims against non-licensed building designers. maybe this is different in your state. what this means (hope i'm not being too didactic, because i don't mean to be) is that 20 years from now, if the roof leaks they can reasonably make a claim against you. a licensed architect would be immune, since the statute of limitations is ten years for licensees.
I wouldn't worry about the liability - we've spent a lot of time stressing over it and after working for a few years and countless discussions with attorneys (family members & otherwise), the chance of you actually being sued over one residential project that you designed as a student is almost non-existent. You just have to think of this as a learning experience, which may earn you some money, but more likely will lose you some money (meaning you'll end up working for free on it because you can't charge the client for all the time it actually takes, or they'll not pay you, or something similar...). Our first three projects or so caused us major headaches, and a lot of it came from our lack of experience (both in actual design and in knowing what to expect from the clients during the process as well as how to educate them). Yes, it was probably a valuable learning experience, no I wouldn't do it over if I could choose... I would have waited for a more appropriate situation, when I had more experience working for someone else.
...go right ahead, nobody will sue me.
the risk is not that you will LOSE a lawsuit, it's that you'll become PARTY to one. who cares if you win or lose? you will spend money on lawyers, time in court, and ultimately for naught -- win, lose, or ... settle. and i don't know of a professional malpractice insurance policy that covers you retroactively.
if you think it's beyond most clients to sue a student designer, you've probably done work without a written contract too...
It takes approx. $10,000-$15,000 to go to court. In our experience, clients who are the type to sue don't even want to spend a few thousand on an attorney to begin with - we have been threatened with lawsuits in the past, and the situation has always been resolved without an attorney, mediation or anything... (other than us wringing our hands and cursing that we ever took the job in the first place).
your experience is your experience. how long have you been in business?
i don't want to belabor the subject -- this project sounds like a bad one, student designer or not -- but:
if you bought a house from someone who hired a student
and mold starts to infest your house b/c of bad flashing details or something like that (welcome to texas)
or there WERE no flashing details
or it was built off "not for construction" drawings
and you get pissed b/c you spent $1.5 million on your house
and you want to get mad and get even
and you find out who built the house and who designed it (look up the building permit at the city, etc)
you will spend 10-15 grand to go to court
in hopes that you can get 100,000 out of the contractor
and 10,000 of out of the designer.
especially if the student has a rich daddy.
RAR, didn't mean to sound condescending or dismissive on that one, BTW...when i said "how long have you been in business?"...toneless internet strikes again. sorry.
maybe try to find someone that's a friend with a bit more experience. someone not necessarily licensed, but with experience doing everything from pre-design to at least DDs. that way you have someone making sure things are going as they should and you'll still be right in the thick of it.
guys to be honest, i think this is nothing more than asking for drawings to convey their ideas from a student.
'not for construction' and putting notes that these are used for schematic design will hopefully dismiss me of your concerns in terms of going to court....
some other details....
i go to UF and the clients chose to pick a UF student bc they have contacts with the school ....
another detail is that the house is going to be built in Illinois, that's where the property is ... i think they just want some fresh design ideas, nothing more nothing less....
this is going to be their new 'dream' home, and are not in any rush, so maybe just throwing around some ideas with a student, spending a couple hundred bucks in the long term will allow them to think about some ideas....
you didn't take professional practice at UT, did you?
if your friends get mad when you ask for a contract -- get new friends. you're a professional and this is business.
and you and others are mistaking "can" for "will." people WILL sue for stupid reasons. our firm was sued by a guy who slipped off a ladder. for making the ceiling too high. said his johnson was "adversely affected" by our design. insurance took care of that straightaway.
an ex-boss of mine had exactly your same attitude...that's why i'm not working there anymore (among other reasons).
your method of practice sounds like driving after just a couple of drinks. you probably won't get stopped, you almost certainly won't get into an accident. but it only takes once to change your life.
when i meant "you" i meant metamechanic...
Interesting discussion, as you can see there's a lot to have fun with in the world of residential design... Anyways, if it really is just them wanting to have you draw out what they're thinking so they can have a better discussion with an architect, then I think it's completely fair to just charge them an hourly rate. To give them the benefit of the doubt, you can assume they want a fixed fee because they have no idea how long it will take to have a student draw it up, and they're worried about spending too much. I would sit down with them and discuss what their expectations are, how much they have already figured out, etc. Hopefully you can get a feel for how long it would take, but if you give them a fixed number just be ready to potentially eat it...
...i agree, don't fix a fee until you've talked with them a bit. and the final word is, watch your back. always.
for "other" architects?
"but for now i have the luxury of not being licensed yet and a day job with small stuff on the side. i'll def change my attitude when the time comes."
no, wait, i'd be going against my own beliefs on that one--a seal doesn't make you an architect. my wife gets on to me for just lobbing out barbs in arguments even when i don't mean them.
you sound like you've read a lot of nietzsche, though.
i think itsa great opportunity for you to get into the architectual design world.
I would advice you not to proceed as a student particularly, but as an artist that will generate the concept for a 5000 sqrft house for wealthy people.
So get the most out of this experience, become essential to them, get paid what you deserve for generating this concept and create something cool that you and them will be proud to later see get built.
i started my career as a receptionist at the branch office of an architecture firm that was located on the second floor of a strip shopping center right above a dry cleaners...in the middle of summer...
...so i guess that's how i'll end it...
...so i guess i better re-learn how to use that damn fax machine...
nono you started humbly, thats how you should end
i'll be humbled, all right...turns out i won't be able to take my escalade, my pit bulls, and my lladro figurines with me when i die.
boy, i haven't been on this forum long but these discussions sure get sidetracked...can't say as i don't mind, though...
people like you is why i am sitting here today making 35,000 a year after 5 years of school, when any pothead bussiness major makes at least 5000 dollars more than me!
anyway sorry for the rant....i would charge 25 at least and 50 at most....depends on what you bring to the table for them...
"35,000 a year after 5 years of school, when any pothead bussiness major makes at least 5000 dollars more than me"
you mean 50000 more than you, you forgot a '0'
$30/HR
this thread had totally gone wild in 2 days!
working as a conceptual designer/consultant is great, but if you are already talking with your client about charging by the drawing, you are already down in the cad monkey business.
if the clients will take your work to an architect after you are done, you should emphasize your production on concepts, sketches, renderings. if you can convince them, it will be a fun experience.
and since the wife is a lawyer, you may want to sign a contract disclaiming your responsibility.
i agree with and/or. if this thing is gonna be handed to an architect at some point i might even try to only do renderings and perspectives (in a variety of media). it sounds like they want you help convey the idea and so renderings rather than some kind of precursor to construction documents would be more appropriate.
maybe pencil sketches, a watercolor, or even a computer rendering or two (but something more moody and idea based, not something really detailed and photoreal)
this discussion is rather worrying for someone in their final year of graduate school. Just a thought.
Nonetheless I'm thinking this cannot be production set of drawings, if that were the case I would suggest you really have a sit down with those folks and discuss it in real financial terms.
you'd be spending way more.
can you explain to me why its 'worrying'?
guys, all i'm doing is drawing up their ideas on CAD ... plans, sections, elevations to get them thinking about a dream home they've been planning towards for years....
it will not go to production.
its design development.
all i'm asking for is a price that would be condusive for someone in my position, and for someone who is looking for ideas
"and since the wife is a lawyer, you may want to sign a contract disclaiming your responsibility."
I'm surprised that comment didn't come earlier. In my professional practice course we were asked who would not be good to work with. Usually the person who sues people for a living would be a good choice (of someone NOT TO WORK FOR)!
So anyway. It's 4 years later. How did the work turn out? What did you end up doing/charging?
I agree -- 45$-50$/hour. Don't settle for chump change for your time and abilities.
I'm sure your friends should appreciate the fact that you're using your time, skills, and talents to design their home.
I'm sure they make a lot of money if they're in the position to be building a home. So for example if one of them is a doctor or something like that, imagine asking him/her to settle for chump change to do "free-lance" work.
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