I get uppity when I see posts where a young architect, w/ a Masters, is having a hard time figuring out if he should take a low-wage arch job.
I pose this action to everyone at the job captain/staff architect level on down, especially in places like LA, SF, or NYC: All of you should just stop what you're doing & go do something else for a month or two.
Or, I'll even pose this thought: All of ya'll in LA, SF, NYC, etc. Go find a job worthy of your talents & experience in say Denver, Miami, Houston, Atlanta, or some other reasonable cost-of-living town. You will, in effect, be giving yourself the pay you deserve, while not actually increasing your salary.
I'm not advocating a strike, I'm saying don't work for a firm that doesn't respect you. If you've got a masters, or lots of ecperience & someone is offering you $14/hr, then I'm talking to you.
Just Leave for a while.
Once the arch firms open for business Monday morning (some will not have closed for the weekend), they'll wonder "Where'd all the Job captains go? They'll wonder that for the next few weeks as they freak out trying to meet deadlines.
This may establish value for these jobs.
What about your sense of responsibility you ask? How can I advocate such contempt? It's not contempt - It's (forgive me, O' Vitruvius) business.
If you don't do this, then you're gonna keep building up your own sense of contempt for Architecture.
i like the idea of establishing value for these jobs so myabe we should all take a month off. it wouldn't be a strike so much as a holiday and we could simply make it a part of our culture (hell, teachers take the whole summer off).
the weather has become very pleasant recently so i move that we take august off. any seconds?
National Skip Work Day?
Being that we don't have a union, that may be the only way to really bring it to the attention of the industry at large.
I like it... set up a site and start advertising perhaps some sort of significant date.
I heard firms usually have a thin margin between payroll and money coming in? I know this was true of a smaller firm I worked for.
This is an interesting idea, and I wouldn't discourage it, but I can think of one possible drawback. Your firms may find that things run perfectly well without you.
In that case I hope that whatever else you find to do for awhile works out well for you and that it's truly more lucrative.
It happens that both of our interns were on vacation recently, for the same week and a half. Both are paid about $14 per hour, though we're not in any of the major cities mentioned. All salary reference sources indicate that we're paying an average salary for our region - in fact $14 per hour is above average for our firm's size in this region.
A couple of things became apparent during that intern-less period of time:
1. there were several comments from the rest of us that it was one of our most productive weeks in quite awhile. There were far fewer interuptions for the rest of us - fewer questions, no need to give directions or spend time correcting work - and the hours that we gained ourselves seemed to make up for the temporary loss of the interns.
2. Because we had this opportunity to pick up where they'd left off on a few of their projects we discovered some serious problems in some of this work. Yes, we would have checked this work and caught these things eventually, but probably at a point at which more backtracking would have had to happen.
Our interns are talented and helpful. I'm not suggesting that they're unecessary. But - regardless of what degree they have - interns almost always require a lot of supervision and training, and a lot of time must be devoted to checking their work. When you consider that someone being paid $14 per hour really costs the firm close to $20 per hour once you look at the firm's share of taxes, unemployment insurance, worker's comp, benefits, etc. - and that higher-salaried people often must spend unbillable time training interns - it becomes very difficult to justify higher salaries. Usually it takes about a year to get to the point where we can even bill the majority of the intern's time (time spent picking up redlines often exceeds the budget for the phase. Anytime senior staff would have been able to do the same task for a lower total fee we don't pass on this training time to the client) and until he or she is up to speed with construction techniques, putting together a drawing set meeting the firm's standards, etc. A first-year intern's salary is seen as an investment, not a profit-making prospect.
I saw the post from the intern (not architect) considering the $14 per hour job and I think he can certainly hold out for more money. In that city/market that's a low salary. But, he has very limited previous experience (he only mentions student jobs) and may find that it's a trade off between starting a job now- any job - to get some experience, or holding out for something better-paying but forfeiting more weeks/months of potential earnings while he waits, as well as having that much less experience when he looks for his next job.
Good luck with the alternative jobs. I had lots of jobs in other fields before architecture - but I didn't make any more money in graphic design, copywriting, etc. than I made as an intern. The only job I had back then that paid better than my intern jobs was as a janitor for a preschool. It paid more because it involved things that nobody would do for less money. But I'd take the $14 an hour architecture job over that any day.
I'm not suggesting that they're unecessary. But - regardless of what degree they have - interns almost always require a lot of supervision and training, and a lot of time must be devoted to checking their work. When you consider that someone being paid $14 per hour really costs the firm close to $20 per hour once you look at the firm's share of taxes, unemployment insurance, worker's comp, benefits, etc. - and that higher-salaried people often must spend unbillable time training interns - it becomes very difficult to justify higher salaries.
those were my thoughts as well
maybe the issue is what other fields pay out of school in comparison to architecture. In fact salaries in general are higher in other fields then architecture. maybe what's really the issue here is the importance we place on architecture and the importance the rest of the world places on it in comparison.
/not really an opinion, I'm just free-wheeling at this point
Do you think 1st year doctors or lawyers make less mistakes than 1st year Archt interns? I'll even make it easier, how about 1st year MBA's?
Lots of hand-holding occuring there, but they usually can find decent pay.
Bloopox, I agree, Interns can slow you down. But if that's happening, then the firm needs to figure out what its interns are for. And, should the firm even have interns? If not, then the firm needs to cough up more money for more experienced people & quit trying to cheap-out on important tasks.
But back to NANA Day (or, as I hope for it to be: NaNa MONTH [NaNAM): I
It isn't only the Interns letting themselves get suckered into low-pay for commensurate experience. It's mostly the mid-level people who are really doing too much for too little. They need to find ways to
make their compensation right.
I am asking the larger segment of Architecture, Job Captains, Staff Archts & heyll, even Project Managers, to do some soul-searching, collectively (not to be confused w/ collective bargaining), and send a statement by disappearing. Or, by leaving high cost-of-living locations in favor of more affordable places.
BTW, an inexperienced Archt Intern gets offer $14/hrr. How much does one of the more experienced positions make? $25? Wow!!! Maybe $35/hr? What does one of your consultant engineers make? How about one of THEIR Interns? I'll venture to say (but haven't researched) that many inexperienced Engrs make more than experienced architects.
You're probably right - Interns playing hooky for a day isn't gonna
promote NaNAM, or NANA Day. But, the main component of the Architectural workforce going somewhere else for a month, or forever - Now that would have an impact.
Sure architect's fees would have to rise, but that's not gonna matter one bit to construction costs. If you doubt me, look at what the cost of fuel has done to the cost of real estate. Can you say it's had a significant effect? I don't see that it has. And, if the construction industry can absorb that, then they can absorb the nominal increase in archt fees.
Now, let's all chant together (Col. Steve Austin style): 'NaNaNaNaNa-Na-Na'.
architecturegeek had a great point about the 'importance' that society places on our work. I think that if we were not there, then our importance would be felt. More importantly, more value can be established.
Heyll, I know most of us aren't gonna go stand up for the principles of NANA, or NaNAM. But if our NANA can be to us what 'Festivus' is to Christmas - Well, then we're onto something!
We don't have any consultant engineers. We do our own structural calcs and that's actually one of the things that makes us able to bill a little higher than some of our competition. If you don't have something that sets your firm apart you'll always just be undercut by somebody out there who will do the work for less. And the funny thing is, the so-called bottom-feeder architects around here who undercut everyone else to get any job are usually 1-man shows with no interns, so I'm not sure that all the support staff in the world walking out at once would really help that much with raising the cost of architectural services. ...
New doctors actually don't do much better than architects. My significant other is a recent med school grad and at the moment I'm the higher earner. I'd imagine that in the next few years this will change, but don't imagine that people leave med school and instantly make 6 figures. Also, as I said I have previous careers (and schooling) in graphic design and writing. Neither pays as well on average as architecture. Graphic design starts off stronger but levels out at a lower average after a few years. Writing is always iffy. Corporate law pays better, environmental law pays worse, but people don't go into the latter thinking they're going to make as much as MBA's.
Our main reason for having interns is that we feel a responsibility to provide opportunities and training for people coming into the field, because when we came out of school people did this for us. Architecture is a field in which people are not particularly useful until they have several years of experience. I'm under the impression that engineers come out of school with at least some useful skills (other than software know-how, which seems to be the most useful thing that architecture interns have initially.) Training an intern is a risky investment since many of them will take their year or so of experience and move on to a new experience (and maybe a higher salary.) Some of them stick around. If they all quit tomorrow we'd miss them but I think we'd still get the work done.
i agree with mystery man, it should be more than just interns.
also, i feel the prime motivation shouldn't be salaries or pay. it would be better to think of it as a lifestyle or cultural value for our profession in which we feel that it would be worthwhile to experience things other than architecture office work in a manner that they could influence our understanding of people and hopefully the quality of our work.
it might be difficutl to do on an individual basis, but if we all did it at the same time (august/september?), it might time it might have the reciprocal effect of letting everyone else know just how necessary architects are in the business of the world.
as i said earlier, teachers all take a generous summer holiday and everybody else has adjusted to that, i.e., most families schedule vacations during summer when the kids are out of school.
this is just my 2¢, but i'd love to get a month off every year...maybe i should just move to france
Interesting topic. Supply and demand seem to be at work on some level here, too. It's probably been posted here before at some point, but this guy's site is pretty interesting. The essays under the tabs at the top are worth checking out. (as a side note, I'd be interested to hear what anyone else thinks about this guy and his views.) One particular thing he mentions is that there are enough students in architecture schools in America right now to totally re-populate the entire profession within five years [I'm assuming just the U.S.].
...it's not just the 'middle' people in architecture that get hosed, it's middle-everything, the middle-class in all social systems do all the work, get screwed on the pay/taxes and are seen as a disposable commodity; ..it would be fun though, to see the entire middle class stay home for a week and watch the world come to a halt......
hmmm. i've gotta say this is an intriguing concept and one that i have considered at some level. the main issue at work here seems to be one that Bloopox probably isn't able to comment on (although i find his comments valid given his context)...and that is, given a metropolitan locale of "global city" stature...the architectural profession is able to abuse young professionals especially within the "intermediate" stage. why is this? well, to me it seems intrinsically tied to the corporate foundation of computer aided design practices in the profession. basically the means of production of documents with the computer that most offices utilize is one based on the hierarchically defined corporate offices that first were instrumental in incorporating the computer. what effect does that have? well, the roles of intern versus senior staff is pretty well defined, but the movement between these two becomes a difficult political terrain. the transparency of previous office models seems to have promoted a clearer process for moving from one station to another. given the ability to quickly view mistakes and accomodate efficient or productive practices. with the rise of the computer has also seen the commensurate rise of the intermediate level. the lack of transparency created by the computer makes the movement from intern to senior level difficult and the exchange of productive practices between intern, junior and senior level staff more difficult. currently there is a power struggle where senior staff see the their reliance on traditional techniques as the defining characteristics of their role, whereas now it creates an extra workload and an inefficiency within the system. the intermediate designer must then act as "translator" for the information into the production system...creating increasing layers of hierarchy....what does this mean for NANA(M)? good question. but definitely it seems that it would force offices to question the means by which information is distributed into the production and it might force them to create a clearer pathway to seniority levels that don't involve a "middle-manager" paradigm....
these are the sort of question that might then lead to a critical assessment of fee structures and the value of staff.
To all the rest of us, I know that this idea I'm floating is more of a concept than anything near an actual movement. But the idea of getting compensated well (or as I approach it - get every dollar that you can for the time & 'heart' you spend) is something that we, as A profession, do not take seriously. And we should. I think that we are the
most intelligent, energetic, and conscientious profession of 'em all. We should make sure that we don't forget to be that way with ourselves. In other words, we need to push our bosses & clients harder for money. We ESPECIALLY need to remember this when we are put into ridiculous situations, such as a last minute, major changes .
Also, if you're going to 'work-round-the-clock', you need to charge for it. DO NOT WORK FOR FREE. Other professions charge more for this. Indeed they actually 'rape' their customers/clients when this happens. I give you the infamous 'change order' example.
One point that you should all remember is this: Asking for, or negotiating for more money DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BAD ARCHITECT. However, if you work for a pittance & resent your boss, then that makes you less of a good person. Do something about that resentment.
I want to go back to a point that somebody made in one of these boards. I think it was one of Bloopox's examples, forgive me if I've got that wrong. Anyway, the point was made that the average Arch firm makes an 8% profit. Who do you think gets that 8%? The last time I checked, 8% can be a lot of money. Let's start by thinking small. If you're working for a small firm, say 3 people, that nets around 8% profit & they have an annual billing of $1M, then they have $64K profit. That most likely goes straight to the owner(s) of the firm. That's fine with me, but if you're doing most of the production in the firm, you need to try to get as much of that profit as you can based on your contribution. If you're getting $14/hr, there is room for you to negotiate. You might only get a small part, but you need to be proactive & at least try because the firm owner(s) are banking that you won't even be considering this. Hey, they've got a boat payment coming up!
I want to address my friend Bloopox, here. From what you've writen, I believe that you are probably above the 'mid-level' position. If that's true, then you have more of a vested interest in keeping labor costs down. I totally follow where you're coming from & I respect that you want to protect your interests. To some extent, as a mostly free-lance Architect, I have to watch costs, too. But I do not see that pushing us to make the pie bigger for Architecture as being a bad thing. That is free-enterprise, and it is capitalist. That is GOOD. Working for 'fast-food' wages (or secretarial wages) is a form of communism, which is a form of slavery. BAD.
Just give more thought to making more money. that's all I ask.
Just Go Do Something Else For A While.
I get uppity when I see posts where a young architect, w/ a Masters, is having a hard time figuring out if he should take a low-wage arch job.
I pose this action to everyone at the job captain/staff architect level on down, especially in places like LA, SF, or NYC: All of you should just stop what you're doing & go do something else for a month or two.
Or, I'll even pose this thought: All of ya'll in LA, SF, NYC, etc. Go find a job worthy of your talents & experience in say Denver, Miami, Houston, Atlanta, or some other reasonable cost-of-living town. You will, in effect, be giving yourself the pay you deserve, while not actually increasing your salary.
I'm not advocating a strike, I'm saying don't work for a firm that doesn't respect you. If you've got a masters, or lots of ecperience & someone is offering you $14/hr, then I'm talking to you.
Just Leave for a while.
Once the arch firms open for business Monday morning (some will not have closed for the weekend), they'll wonder "Where'd all the Job captains go? They'll wonder that for the next few weeks as they freak out trying to meet deadlines.
This may establish value for these jobs.
What about your sense of responsibility you ask? How can I advocate such contempt? It's not contempt - It's (forgive me, O' Vitruvius) business.
If you don't do this, then you're gonna keep building up your own sense of contempt for Architecture.
i like the idea of establishing value for these jobs so myabe we should all take a month off. it wouldn't be a strike so much as a holiday and we could simply make it a part of our culture (hell, teachers take the whole summer off).
the weather has become very pleasant recently so i move that we take august off. any seconds?
Something MUST BE DONE.
Can we do September, 95+degrees + 90%+ humidity, Down South make playing hooky more of an interior deal in the Summer.
yeah the 14 bucks ab hour thing is ludacris. I made that much as an intern.
Although, why someone who receives an MArch should be worth more than someone who has a BArch beats the hell out of me........
National Skip Work Day?
Being that we don't have a union, that may be the only way to really bring it to the attention of the industry at large.
I like it... set up a site and start advertising perhaps some sort of significant date.
I heard firms usually have a thin margin between payroll and money coming in? I know this was true of a smaller firm I worked for.
Can I make a day w/ an acronym?
National Architect Not Available
[ NANA ] Day.
Date? Just as long as the weather's nice.
We must make this happen, it's critical to our lprofession.
happy nanaday!
Nana-Nana. Nana-Nana. Hey, hey, hey...
This is an interesting idea, and I wouldn't discourage it, but I can think of one possible drawback. Your firms may find that things run perfectly well without you.
In that case I hope that whatever else you find to do for awhile works out well for you and that it's truly more lucrative.
It happens that both of our interns were on vacation recently, for the same week and a half. Both are paid about $14 per hour, though we're not in any of the major cities mentioned. All salary reference sources indicate that we're paying an average salary for our region - in fact $14 per hour is above average for our firm's size in this region.
A couple of things became apparent during that intern-less period of time:
1. there were several comments from the rest of us that it was one of our most productive weeks in quite awhile. There were far fewer interuptions for the rest of us - fewer questions, no need to give directions or spend time correcting work - and the hours that we gained ourselves seemed to make up for the temporary loss of the interns.
2. Because we had this opportunity to pick up where they'd left off on a few of their projects we discovered some serious problems in some of this work. Yes, we would have checked this work and caught these things eventually, but probably at a point at which more backtracking would have had to happen.
Our interns are talented and helpful. I'm not suggesting that they're unecessary. But - regardless of what degree they have - interns almost always require a lot of supervision and training, and a lot of time must be devoted to checking their work. When you consider that someone being paid $14 per hour really costs the firm close to $20 per hour once you look at the firm's share of taxes, unemployment insurance, worker's comp, benefits, etc. - and that higher-salaried people often must spend unbillable time training interns - it becomes very difficult to justify higher salaries. Usually it takes about a year to get to the point where we can even bill the majority of the intern's time (time spent picking up redlines often exceeds the budget for the phase. Anytime senior staff would have been able to do the same task for a lower total fee we don't pass on this training time to the client) and until he or she is up to speed with construction techniques, putting together a drawing set meeting the firm's standards, etc. A first-year intern's salary is seen as an investment, not a profit-making prospect.
I saw the post from the intern (not architect) considering the $14 per hour job and I think he can certainly hold out for more money. In that city/market that's a low salary. But, he has very limited previous experience (he only mentions student jobs) and may find that it's a trade off between starting a job now- any job - to get some experience, or holding out for something better-paying but forfeiting more weeks/months of potential earnings while he waits, as well as having that much less experience when he looks for his next job.
Good luck with the alternative jobs. I had lots of jobs in other fields before architecture - but I didn't make any more money in graphic design, copywriting, etc. than I made as an intern. The only job I had back then that paid better than my intern jobs was as a janitor for a preschool. It paid more because it involved things that nobody would do for less money. But I'd take the $14 an hour architecture job over that any day.
those were my thoughts as well
maybe the issue is what other fields pay out of school in comparison to architecture. In fact salaries in general are higher in other fields then architecture. maybe what's really the issue here is the importance we place on architecture and the importance the rest of the world places on it in comparison.
/not really an opinion, I'm just free-wheeling at this point
Do you think 1st year doctors or lawyers make less mistakes than 1st year Archt interns? I'll even make it easier, how about 1st year MBA's?
Lots of hand-holding occuring there, but they usually can find decent pay.
Bloopox, I agree, Interns can slow you down. But if that's happening, then the firm needs to figure out what its interns are for. And, should the firm even have interns? If not, then the firm needs to cough up more money for more experienced people & quit trying to cheap-out on important tasks.
But back to NANA Day (or, as I hope for it to be: NaNa MONTH [NaNAM): I
It isn't only the Interns letting themselves get suckered into low-pay for commensurate experience. It's mostly the mid-level people who are really doing too much for too little. They need to find ways to
make their compensation right.
I am asking the larger segment of Architecture, Job Captains, Staff Archts & heyll, even Project Managers, to do some soul-searching, collectively (not to be confused w/ collective bargaining), and send a statement by disappearing. Or, by leaving high cost-of-living locations in favor of more affordable places.
BTW, an inexperienced Archt Intern gets offer $14/hrr. How much does one of the more experienced positions make? $25? Wow!!! Maybe $35/hr? What does one of your consultant engineers make? How about one of THEIR Interns? I'll venture to say (but haven't researched) that many inexperienced Engrs make more than experienced architects.
You're probably right - Interns playing hooky for a day isn't gonna
promote NaNAM, or NANA Day. But, the main component of the Architectural workforce going somewhere else for a month, or forever - Now that would have an impact.
Sure architect's fees would have to rise, but that's not gonna matter one bit to construction costs. If you doubt me, look at what the cost of fuel has done to the cost of real estate. Can you say it's had a significant effect? I don't see that it has. And, if the construction industry can absorb that, then they can absorb the nominal increase in archt fees.
Now, let's all chant together (Col. Steve Austin style): 'NaNaNaNaNa-Na-Na'.
architecturegeek had a great point about the 'importance' that society places on our work. I think that if we were not there, then our importance would be felt. More importantly, more value can be established.
Heyll, I know most of us aren't gonna go stand up for the principles of NANA, or NaNAM. But if our NANA can be to us what 'Festivus' is to Christmas - Well, then we're onto something!
We don't have any consultant engineers. We do our own structural calcs and that's actually one of the things that makes us able to bill a little higher than some of our competition. If you don't have something that sets your firm apart you'll always just be undercut by somebody out there who will do the work for less. And the funny thing is, the so-called bottom-feeder architects around here who undercut everyone else to get any job are usually 1-man shows with no interns, so I'm not sure that all the support staff in the world walking out at once would really help that much with raising the cost of architectural services. ...
New doctors actually don't do much better than architects. My significant other is a recent med school grad and at the moment I'm the higher earner. I'd imagine that in the next few years this will change, but don't imagine that people leave med school and instantly make 6 figures. Also, as I said I have previous careers (and schooling) in graphic design and writing. Neither pays as well on average as architecture. Graphic design starts off stronger but levels out at a lower average after a few years. Writing is always iffy. Corporate law pays better, environmental law pays worse, but people don't go into the latter thinking they're going to make as much as MBA's.
Our main reason for having interns is that we feel a responsibility to provide opportunities and training for people coming into the field, because when we came out of school people did this for us. Architecture is a field in which people are not particularly useful until they have several years of experience. I'm under the impression that engineers come out of school with at least some useful skills (other than software know-how, which seems to be the most useful thing that architecture interns have initially.) Training an intern is a risky investment since many of them will take their year or so of experience and move on to a new experience (and maybe a higher salary.) Some of them stick around. If they all quit tomorrow we'd miss them but I think we'd still get the work done.
Anyway, good luck with nana day.
i plan to be a very very loud mime.
and hence a very bad one.
i agree with mystery man, it should be more than just interns.
also, i feel the prime motivation shouldn't be salaries or pay. it would be better to think of it as a lifestyle or cultural value for our profession in which we feel that it would be worthwhile to experience things other than architecture office work in a manner that they could influence our understanding of people and hopefully the quality of our work.
it might be difficutl to do on an individual basis, but if we all did it at the same time (august/september?), it might time it might have the reciprocal effect of letting everyone else know just how necessary architects are in the business of the world.
as i said earlier, teachers all take a generous summer holiday and everybody else has adjusted to that, i.e., most families schedule vacations during summer when the kids are out of school.
this is just my 2¢, but i'd love to get a month off every year...maybe i should just move to france
Interesting topic. Supply and demand seem to be at work on some level here, too. It's probably been posted here before at some point, but this guy's site is pretty interesting. The essays under the tabs at the top are worth checking out. (as a side note, I'd be interested to hear what anyone else thinks about this guy and his views.) One particular thing he mentions is that there are enough students in architecture schools in America right now to totally re-populate the entire profession within five years [I'm assuming just the U.S.].
Not that they'd have the training to do anything for the next 5 after that, but....
MM, I agree. I have said if they keep fucking with me I'd walk at an inoppurtine moment. And demand a little RESPECT
yeah, that'll get you respect....
...it's not just the 'middle' people in architecture that get hosed, it's middle-everything, the middle-class in all social systems do all the work, get screwed on the pay/taxes and are seen as a disposable commodity; ..it would be fun though, to see the entire middle class stay home for a week and watch the world come to a halt......
hmmm. i've gotta say this is an intriguing concept and one that i have considered at some level. the main issue at work here seems to be one that Bloopox probably isn't able to comment on (although i find his comments valid given his context)...and that is, given a metropolitan locale of "global city" stature...the architectural profession is able to abuse young professionals especially within the "intermediate" stage. why is this? well, to me it seems intrinsically tied to the corporate foundation of computer aided design practices in the profession. basically the means of production of documents with the computer that most offices utilize is one based on the hierarchically defined corporate offices that first were instrumental in incorporating the computer. what effect does that have? well, the roles of intern versus senior staff is pretty well defined, but the movement between these two becomes a difficult political terrain. the transparency of previous office models seems to have promoted a clearer process for moving from one station to another. given the ability to quickly view mistakes and accomodate efficient or productive practices. with the rise of the computer has also seen the commensurate rise of the intermediate level. the lack of transparency created by the computer makes the movement from intern to senior level difficult and the exchange of productive practices between intern, junior and senior level staff more difficult. currently there is a power struggle where senior staff see the their reliance on traditional techniques as the defining characteristics of their role, whereas now it creates an extra workload and an inefficiency within the system. the intermediate designer must then act as "translator" for the information into the production system...creating increasing layers of hierarchy....what does this mean for NANA(M)? good question. but definitely it seems that it would force offices to question the means by which information is distributed into the production and it might force them to create a clearer pathway to seniority levels that don't involve a "middle-manager" paradigm....
these are the sort of question that might then lead to a critical assessment of fee structures and the value of staff.
or maybe this is all a big seat of the pants reaction that i've made while sitting here starting out my monday morning at work...
ahh, mondays.
Futureboy,
You get it. Top-O-Nana[M] to ya!
To all the rest of us, I know that this idea I'm floating is more of a concept than anything near an actual movement. But the idea of getting compensated well (or as I approach it - get every dollar that you can for the time & 'heart' you spend) is something that we, as A profession, do not take seriously. And we should. I think that we are the
most intelligent, energetic, and conscientious profession of 'em all. We should make sure that we don't forget to be that way with ourselves. In other words, we need to push our bosses & clients harder for money. We ESPECIALLY need to remember this when we are put into ridiculous situations, such as a last minute, major changes .
Also, if you're going to 'work-round-the-clock', you need to charge for it. DO NOT WORK FOR FREE. Other professions charge more for this. Indeed they actually 'rape' their customers/clients when this happens. I give you the infamous 'change order' example.
One point that you should all remember is this: Asking for, or negotiating for more money DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BAD ARCHITECT. However, if you work for a pittance & resent your boss, then that makes you less of a good person. Do something about that resentment.
I want to go back to a point that somebody made in one of these boards. I think it was one of Bloopox's examples, forgive me if I've got that wrong. Anyway, the point was made that the average Arch firm makes an 8% profit. Who do you think gets that 8%? The last time I checked, 8% can be a lot of money. Let's start by thinking small. If you're working for a small firm, say 3 people, that nets around 8% profit & they have an annual billing of $1M, then they have $64K profit. That most likely goes straight to the owner(s) of the firm. That's fine with me, but if you're doing most of the production in the firm, you need to try to get as much of that profit as you can based on your contribution. If you're getting $14/hr, there is room for you to negotiate. You might only get a small part, but you need to be proactive & at least try because the firm owner(s) are banking that you won't even be considering this. Hey, they've got a boat payment coming up!
I want to address my friend Bloopox, here. From what you've writen, I believe that you are probably above the 'mid-level' position. If that's true, then you have more of a vested interest in keeping labor costs down. I totally follow where you're coming from & I respect that you want to protect your interests. To some extent, as a mostly free-lance Architect, I have to watch costs, too. But I do not see that pushing us to make the pie bigger for Architecture as being a bad thing. That is free-enterprise, and it is capitalist. That is GOOD. Working for 'fast-food' wages (or secretarial wages) is a form of communism, which is a form of slavery. BAD.
Just give more thought to making more money. that's all I ask.
Besides, what other profession sets you up to want to work for yourself more that Architecture?
Aw, nutz, I blew my cover.
Sorry, they have $80K profit. I'm not watching my P's & Q's today. Better go & check my invoices now!
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.