Went to an interview today and the principal said there is a good chance I am the guy they are looking for. He offered me $14/hr. His firm is KDarchitects in San Francisco. Should I take this job?
I have just recently graduated from Cal Poly Pomona with a March. Have a BA in Arch from Berkeley. Not much real life experience except working in a non-profit arch firm for six months before going back to school for a Masters. Know softwares such as autocad, form-z, photoshop....etc.
I have sent out bunch of resume with only few replies. Got three phone interviews, three actual interviews (one in San Jose which is far away) and no luck. Have another interview with a firm in SSF next week.
how much do you want to take this job?
you cant have been that taken with their work (i looked them up), but you do need to get experience, idp hours, a decent paying job, whatever...
basically-- think about what you want to get out of the job. if they've offered you a job, they know what they can out of you- you sound like you have good skills you can offer to any employer.
what about the office itself? friendly atmosphere? slave-drivers? lots of overtime? these things are as important as the work that you'll be doing....
i personally think if you're willing to apply and relocate to other cities, you can probably get a better firm/job offer. but if the job markert is bad/if you're having trouble getting interviews in SF, this might be something you should grab. -- i cant really speak for job market, salary expectations- but make sure you do your research and be sure you're getting something worthwhile.
atleast try this:: ask them if you can have until next week to give them an answer. go to this other interview, see how that goes, and then make a decision...
Thanks spiderdad.
Their office is actually quite small. However, they do get a variety of projects from big to small. I guess the problem I had with this offer is I was already making $15/hr three year ago with no experience and only a BA. In the end, I know it is really about do I plan to stay there for a long period of time or just move on when the next opportunity arises.
I know, though I am scared I might not be able to find anything for another months. It's not like I dont have confidence in myself, but it's kind of depressing without luck after searching for almost two months.
$14*40*4*11.25=$25,200 before taxes. let's say you put in 10 hours of overtime a month, that jumps you to $34,650. that's also assuming the company pays you time and a half for overtime, which let's face it, most principles are shy of scum and don't do. regardless of experience, you sould be making more than a classmate of mine that completely sucks, and lives in a less-costly city. i would buy a magnum of champagne, drink it, and then tell the principle to stick it up his arse, wide end first. that way he's got a nice grip to hold on to. don't be too worried about finding a job. summer hire will be headed back to school soon, and firms will be looking to replace them shortly. good luck-i say-good luck, young man.
seriously, if this is a full-time gig, don't even think about $14/hr, esp. in a city like San Francisco. If it were Phoenix, then we would be saying different things, but it costs a LOT to live in San Francisco. You probably can't afford to comply with their dress code on that salary.
This profession is so completely fucked up that someone with a masters degree gets offered less than $30k/year. High school janitors get more than that! Ok, I feel better now.
$14 x 2080 = $29,120. At least that's how I figure annual salary.
That's weak even with time-and-a-half overtime. You can get a wage like that in Kansas, so why would you accept it in San Fran?
Granted you don't have a lot of practical experience, but there is a going rate for unexperienced grads and I find it hard to believe $14 is what it's at in SF.
If you are that worried about work my suggestion is take the job but never stop looking. Get some experience and hopefully in a few months have something better. Sad thing is that better is probably $35k. Sad.
My guess is in San Francisco you should make way more than that. A masters, 6 months of experience (what the hell is a non-profit arch firm? Never heard of one) you should make more. I made $12 right out of school with a B.A. and no experience. After 3 months I got a raise to $14. That was in Chicago and that was EIGHT YEARS AGO! And that was for a great firm.
Either ask for a ballpark of $17 an hour or more, or tell them that is really low, and would like a review after 3 months, to reconsider your pay after they see how exceptional you are.
Or just wait. Age old rule of thumb - never accept your first offer.
I have not asked for a specific salary range. The 14/hr is what he is willing to offer me. Anyone happen to know what is the going rate in San Francisco? I think the range is more like between 17-20/hr. If I take the job, he should expect me to leave once I get a better paying job although I do want to stay in a single firm until I get my license.
Max, look at the column of links at the top left side of the screen. Click the one that says "salary poll", and browse until you find stuff that is close to your basic criteria, to get an idea of what you should expect.
also try consulting inside arch and see if the firm is there.
if you want to work for this firm badly enough and feel you can live on that wage, go for it. if you're feeling a bit weary of the pay, i'd start to consider it long and hard. also, you need to consider what benefits that they're willing to provide in addition to the wage. i got offered a steady 30 which was a bit low but i took it as the firm has a $500 stipend for any books, classes, drawing materials etc., good health and dental, etc. (in LA)
the thing is, you can't take a job once you turn it down. but you can always leave (though you don't want to burn your bridges)...
also, did they give you a formal offer or did they just say "we think you're the guy, we'll be in touch"? cause that sounds a bit sketch to me.
to A and melivt: an easier way to compute yearly income based on hourly rate is to just multiply the dollars per hour by 2, and add three zeros. in this case, $14/hr. = roughly $28,000 per year. it just uses 50 for the number of weeks in a year for the sake of estimation.
The guy only told me I am probably the person that more fit his firm. No confirm offer yet. That's why I am seeking advice here in case I do get an official offer.
Say that you were calculating your basic cost of living and say that it seems that the salary might not cover this. You're very interested and excited about working at said firm and would just like a wage so that you're not constantly worried about making rent so you can fully dedicate your efforts toward your work. You have experience working and based on that you should be worth more as you have more experience and education now.
Don't seem like you're desperate to get the job and if a tactful opportunity arises, don't be afraid to throw out the names of other firms you are also looking at.
Show there are clearly legitimate reasons why you should be paid more.
salary.com has a salary guideline -- for recent grads, the 25th percentile is about 33k and the 75th percentile makes something around 44k. you might want to aim for around 40k base.
Or if you really like the place, go lower and ask for a reevaluation after working a few months -- confirm a performance review for a specific date.
But i know it's typical for very small firms give recent grads 35k-37k starting out in SF -- but also, these are recent undergrads.
If you're looking only for experience & this job will give you a tremendous boost in the future. Is there a good chance of you advancing quickly? If so, take it.
However, $14/hr? You invested all that time & money to get an MArch for $14/hr? You could've started at a non-college job, say the USPS, or UPS, for that the time you started Arch school. Today you'd be almost vested in their 401-K, getting benefits & have advanced enough to be making a decent, albeit not rich, living.
Don't let these (jerks) firms get away with that. You don't know what kind of fees they get, but I gurantee you, $14/hr is a tiny fraction of it. You may also wat to check out what the interviewer is driving.
I know we're all in Architecture mostly forthe experience, or rather, the process. But come on! We Archiects will never fully respect ourselves if we keep taking krap like that.
If you're looking only for experience & this job will give you a tremendous boost in the future. Is there a good chance of you advancing quickly? If so, take it.
However, $14/hr? You invested all that time & money to get an MArch for $14/hr? You could've started at a non-college job, say the USPS, or UPS, for that the time you started Arch school. Today you'd be almost vested in their 401-K, getting benefits & have advanced enough to be making a decent, albeit not rich, living.
Don't let these (jerks) firms get away with that. You don't know what kind of fees they get, but I gurantee you, $14/hr is a tiny fraction of it. You may also wat to check out what the interviewer is driving.
I know we're all in Architecture mostly forthe experience, or rather, the process. But come on! We Archiects will never fully respect ourselves if we keep taking krap like that.
BTW, this is a job in San Francisco? Geesh, those already established in cities like that really know how to (as was said) rip-you-off.
Go do yourself a favor. I know SF is an incredible city, but try this. Look for work in a place that might be your 2nd choice, say Las Vegas, Miami, or Atlanta - lots going on in those places + even w/ recent spikes in housing, the cost of living is still a fraction of SF, LA, or NYC. Work there
for the time it takes you to get your IDP out of the way, save as much as you can, get vested in profit-sharing, 401K, get benefits, etc.
Relative to waht you'd get in SF, you'd be making about $30-$50/HR.
The real hard part, though, is to leave the Bay area.
J:
An associate at my old firm told me an architecture firm can reasonably afford to pay you up to 1/2.5 times what you bill out at. So if your position bills out at $45, that firm can reasonably afford to pay you $18/hr.
commenting on pollen's point: we get billed out at 4-5 times what we get paid or more. but I at least make over $15 an hour.
honestly, this'll blow your mind: an intern here is "in charge" of a 10 mil building, if our fee is was a modest 5% that's a 500k fee. Assuming the intern (or various lesser paid individuals) bill 80% of those hours, that's 400k, which at said intern's current salary would take over 11 years to earn. funny how numbers work like that.
you should not take that job, they are looking for a sucker, don't let it be you. it's sad that they WILL find someone who will take it.
you could try to negotiate a higher salary if you want the job. given the location, you shouldn't be getting less than 36k a year, which is about $17.30/hr. my brother is head resident in SF and that's what he makes (another low paid over educated soul) and he doesn't have any leftover cash after expenses. you have to think about saving for retirement, paying for exams and study materials, school loans etc! you don't want to be eating ramen sitting under that nicely framed master's degree do you?
I've heard grocery store workers even make $18/hr (union) in california. can anyone confirm?
yes, there are unionized grocery workers in the Bay Area who make more than entry-level architects. it's actually pretty competitive to get a job at a place like berkeley bowl.
Yet $18/hr before tax is still meager when you live in a place where to get a "standard" of living you need to make at least 50k a year.
rationalist: our interns get billed out at $70-95 an hour. i think i'm getting billed out at 80 or 85 myself. i don't know that any of us make over $20/hr. one got a bonus once, don't know how much.
PUSH THE ISSUE OF COST OF LIVING....I did it and it worked. most bosses like to think that they are fair, even if they're not, and leveraging "cost of living" against their offer will probably work better than saying "i'm worth more".
I wouldnt unless the work was really compelling. I got paid more as an intern during school. With cost of living in the bay area I dont see how you could pay rent. Would probably make more working retail managment, you have a degree, and doing pro bono for an organization firm you admired to get your foot in the door. I'm sure it varies but if your getting hourly pay your employer is usually billing your time out at 3-4 times that.
I suspected SD being low but not considered the lowest. And the cost of living is so high right now.
When I lived in SD (7 yrs ago), the most I made was $13/hr with about 4 yrs experience under my belt. So I agree with the rest, $14/hr is too low. Make the calcs (use the $/hr x 40 hrs x 50 weeks) and see what you really need. I assume you may have outstanding credit card bills you want to pay off, student loans, etc. above and beyond food, rent and entertainment. And in a city like SF, consider 30% of your income goes to rent (unless you are lucky). Also, talk about benefits, such as bonuses, insurance, etc. I work in the corporate world and it's automatic. I don't know how smaller firms deal with it. Good luck!
when i graduate i won't accept anything less than $250000 a year, with no less than 53 weeks paid vacation a year... now THAT'S not undervaluing yourself. :)
I have another interview earlier next week with a firm that have high score at insidearch.com. Hopefully I got better luck this time.
Also, I am living with my parents in the city, so no hurry to scrap cash for rent yet. However, the cost of living is very high here. It's good that I dont go out much. :P
From ManagemenrDesign.com, had one employer use this as a levering tool once, they produce a large publication with staff descriptions avg. wages increases and so forth. Too bad he hadnt run the nimber himself, worked out to he should have been paying me more. The look on his face when i showed him the math was priceless.
Strawbeary: first of all, anyone in your firm who isn't billable - in part or whole - is being "carried" in project fees. For instance, if your principals spend much of their time on marketing, or if you have a receptionist, or accountant, or tech guru, etc. - all of those people are paid from the project fees.
Second: whatever the intern's salary is, the firm actually spends at least 25% more on this employee by the time they pay the employer's share of taxes, unemployment insurance, worker's comp payments, benefits, etc.
Third: nobody is 100% billable. Any time they spend on vacation, sick days, cleaning up their desk, all has to be paid for by the project fees.
Fourth: usually the firm's fee includes all of the budgeted fees for any consultants that the firm uses.
Fifth: the firm obviously has other expenses, ranging from multiple types of insurance to utilities and software...
US firms average 8.5% profit (this is from recent AIA literature.) Calculating a project fee in terms of how many years it could pay an intern's hourly rate is not really the full story.
Excuse me but since when did architecture graduates become so salary-based in their thinking? You guys sound like a bunch of corporate wannabes whiners, with all this about pay, benefits and cost of living right out of school?
Anyone who is driven by design (i.e. anyone who made it through a strong arch. program) and is right out of school would hopefully try to work at least a year for someone whose work truly moves/inspires you --whatever it takes financially (i.e. being poor)-- before caving in to the sad "professionalism" behind most of this discussion. At least that was the predominant attitude when the 25-30% of us made it to graduation at the design-intensive boot camp of an architecture school I went to.
This does not mean I advocate the lack of compensation our profession has endured for so long. On the other hand this is clearly not a field to enter for the pay.
When the poster asked if he should work at said firm, the response would hopefully be: who are KD Architects, what is the nature of their work and is that where you want to begin your exeprience as an architect?
If the concerns voiced in this discussion are the main ones guiding job seeking for young grads today, its a sad day for architecture.
self efficacy, schmelf efficacy! I still say work for someone whose work you admire/respect at some point (probably out of school), at whatever cost, before you start thinking primarily about being comfortable.
At one well-nown firm I was at, an intern slept in the office, drove a beater truck and ate cans of beans to be there -- I know that is extreme, but he then went into teaching, went back to school (grad) where his thesis received widespread recognition, which opened all kinds of doors/possibilities. It was I believe the dedication and intensity he brought to that first job that pushed him to excell in anything he pursued.
some people have financial responsibilities, while other do not...you seem to not have any...but please respect the need for money for people who have such responsibilities.
when most people enter architecture school at the age of say 20-21 they are not aware that architecture pays like shit, who thinks of money at that age? but being paid 14$ an hour in a city like SF sucks - that too after a masters degree from a very good school.
so, all in all, if you are living out of a trust fund, or have made enough money that you dont need anymore, write me a check, will you???
and why the hell should someone not get paid good money (as you suggest in your post) in the first year of their work life??? say that to management graduates, even other design professionals and see the expression on their faces.
Contrary to popular opinion, poverty is not neccesarily conducive to intensity or passion, nor is it a symbol of morality.
The trouble is that architects simply do not get paid what they are worth. Principals dont get the right fees, they dont pass it on fairly, the charge out rates and wages dont correlate. I was taught that you charge 150% of an hourly rage for a call out rate, which accounts for your expenses and a profit.
My first job, I asked for between $20-25, I was offered $20/h and I took it. It wasnt until I saw the bills that I realised that I was being charged out at $85/h. Not only that, but about 8 months into the job I found out that I was the highest paid staff member there after the licensed architects, who got $25/h and $29/h respectively. We got a new intern and he got $12/h. The principle, doing no architectural work whatsoever, billed at $120/h. [This is all in NZ dollars]. There was no equity.
After 5.5 years of study, and 2.5 years of work, I am only now getting used to the idea of not being poor. I know what its like to be poor. I was so poor during my study, that for my end of degree project, I spent only $40 on printing and laminating my work [It didnt stop me getting 2nd highest mark of the year].
I'm not saying we should be paid in gold bullion, but certainly in the top professional tier. In New Zealand, the average wage for an architect, across all ages and experience is about $67,000.
I've never lived in the States, but I would think that $14 an hour is too low. But, sometimes you have to take what you can get, which is a shame.
but having said that, $14/hour and working through IDP is still better than $0/hour and stagnating while sitting on your couch. basically in this profession you're not going to make any money until you are an owner or partner, at which point you will finally have some control over the profitability of your firm. in the meantime your goal should be to get licensed. so if they offer, try to negotiate, maybe you can squeeze a couple of extra dollars out of them. i'd probably take the job and continue to look for something better.
it's worth keeping in mind that this profession is a constant weeding out process and the first job is a critical juncture in that process. a whole bunch of kids have fresh degrees right now but how many are going to make the sacrifice to stick around for peanuts when they could make more money elsewhere? it does get better after you have worked for a little while. i have been surprised at how much more receptive firms are when you actually have a couple years of experience.
taking that into account, i am also inclined to agree with bothands. if you are going to sacrifice and be paid shit, then you might as well do it for a firm/architect that you admire. since you are living at home, maybe you should pass on the kdarchitects. pick the best firm in town (or the one that you would most like to work for) and just show up and offer to help. after about two days of sitting in the lobby i'm sure somebody in the office will put you to work. it may pay even less than $14/hour (maybe nothing at all) but at least you'll still be working through idp and gaining experience with someone you admire. that's still better than sitting on your parent's couch feeling sorry for yourself.
i guess its all really a question of making sacrifices to achieve what you want. make yours strategically and soon enough you'll be doing fine.
I am not exactly sitting on the couch and hoping for a high paying job. I do help my dad, who has a small importing business, from time to time. I also start giving out tennis lessons to beginners recently.
Well, another interview coming up in a couple of days. Hopefully it will go well. Also, sent out more resumes, hopefully there will be replies as well. But I do agree you that Puddles, if I have to take that 14/hr job, I will just take while looking for something better down the road. Working on my license will be my goal in the next few years. Eventually, though, I would like to go back to school and possibly get a phd in psychology.
I do not have money, a trust fund or any other source income other than what comes from a tiny (hardly profitable, but somewhat recognized) experimental practice, plus teaching architecture. I definitely make less from my practice -- as a principal no less -- than many of the salaries mentioned in this discussion. I also ended school with loans like most others. It is through teaching alongside practice that I survive (barely). If you all think its arrogance on my part, fine. But is is certainly not a matter of 'morality', I am one certainly not one of the more "moral" people I know (that is as much as I think I know myself). I prefer to think of my stance as a commitment to design as a challenge the status quo, the corporate tendencies and the general mediocrity of architectural practice in this country.
And thanks puddles for a least aknowledging some of the merits of such a stance.
all that being said, there is no way i would say k+d architects is a design oriented firm i'd be willing to earn such meager wages working for, especially in s.f. in europe, i know plenty of people fresh out of school that were able to work for great firms and not get paid a lot. but they have a society that fosters that-at least many times better than ours does. i view a firm not willing to pay a decent wage as one that truly doesn't respect
a. the profession
b. the prospective applicant
and isn't worth my time. no matter how anyone tries to justify it. if they really respected the applicant, and could tell by his work that he (or she) would make a strong employee, why not make it worth their while? i understand grinding it out and having hardship in the beginning-proving your worth. but to bust out of school with a master's, which is supposed to infer some level of intelligence and skill, how can the profession turn it's back and blatantly disregard them? see, the way i see it, principles view them as cheap labor, and so can pay them as little as they want. good work with good firms is scarce, it's a seller's market. and those looking for work (the buyers) get screwed. perhaps this discussion is more about there being too many job applicants for too few jobs? i don't know. teachers get screwed financially as well, which i never understood. are our values just completely wrong?
hmmm... save everyone from dying (except those possibly guilty of a crime) and then not let those responsible for raising/babysitting our kids to barely get by financially. oy. it's been a long day. sorry for the rant.
Should I take this job?
Went to an interview today and the principal said there is a good chance I am the guy they are looking for. He offered me $14/hr. His firm is KDarchitects in San Francisco. Should I take this job?
I have just recently graduated from Cal Poly Pomona with a March. Have a BA in Arch from Berkeley. Not much real life experience except working in a non-profit arch firm for six months before going back to school for a Masters. Know softwares such as autocad, form-z, photoshop....etc.
I have sent out bunch of resume with only few replies. Got three phone interviews, three actual interviews (one in San Jose which is far away) and no luck. Have another interview with a firm in SSF next week.
Any advice? :(
well, put it this way...
how much do you want to take this job?
you cant have been that taken with their work (i looked them up), but you do need to get experience, idp hours, a decent paying job, whatever...
basically-- think about what you want to get out of the job. if they've offered you a job, they know what they can out of you- you sound like you have good skills you can offer to any employer.
what about the office itself? friendly atmosphere? slave-drivers? lots of overtime? these things are as important as the work that you'll be doing....
i personally think if you're willing to apply and relocate to other cities, you can probably get a better firm/job offer. but if the job markert is bad/if you're having trouble getting interviews in SF, this might be something you should grab. -- i cant really speak for job market, salary expectations- but make sure you do your research and be sure you're getting something worthwhile.
atleast try this:: ask them if you can have until next week to give them an answer. go to this other interview, see how that goes, and then make a decision...
good luck!
Thanks spiderdad.
Their office is actually quite small. However, they do get a variety of projects from big to small. I guess the problem I had with this offer is I was already making $15/hr three year ago with no experience and only a BA. In the end, I know it is really about do I plan to stay there for a long period of time or just move on when the next opportunity arises.
if you're not getting what you should be, dont go for it.
you could always ask them for more... negotiate... ask them for $16. tell them its too low.
I know, though I am scared I might not be able to find anything for another months. It's not like I dont have confidence in myself, but it's kind of depressing without luck after searching for almost two months.
$14*40*4*11.25=$25,200 before taxes. let's say you put in 10 hours of overtime a month, that jumps you to $34,650. that's also assuming the company pays you time and a half for overtime, which let's face it, most principles are shy of scum and don't do. regardless of experience, you sould be making more than a classmate of mine that completely sucks, and lives in a less-costly city. i would buy a magnum of champagne, drink it, and then tell the principle to stick it up his arse, wide end first. that way he's got a nice grip to hold on to. don't be too worried about finding a job. summer hire will be headed back to school soon, and firms will be looking to replace them shortly. good luck-i say-good luck, young man.
seriously, if this is a full-time gig, don't even think about $14/hr, esp. in a city like San Francisco. If it were Phoenix, then we would be saying different things, but it costs a LOT to live in San Francisco. You probably can't afford to comply with their dress code on that salary.
This profession is so completely fucked up that someone with a masters degree gets offered less than $30k/year. High school janitors get more than that! Ok, I feel better now.
$14 x 2080 = $29,120. At least that's how I figure annual salary.
That's weak even with time-and-a-half overtime. You can get a wage like that in Kansas, so why would you accept it in San Fran?
Granted you don't have a lot of practical experience, but there is a going rate for unexperienced grads and I find it hard to believe $14 is what it's at in SF.
If you are that worried about work my suggestion is take the job but never stop looking. Get some experience and hopefully in a few months have something better. Sad thing is that better is probably $35k. Sad.
My guess is in San Francisco you should make way more than that. A masters, 6 months of experience (what the hell is a non-profit arch firm? Never heard of one) you should make more. I made $12 right out of school with a B.A. and no experience. After 3 months I got a raise to $14. That was in Chicago and that was EIGHT YEARS AGO! And that was for a great firm.
Either ask for a ballpark of $17 an hour or more, or tell them that is really low, and would like a review after 3 months, to reconsider your pay after they see how exceptional you are.
Or just wait. Age old rule of thumb - never accept your first offer.
I have not asked for a specific salary range. The 14/hr is what he is willing to offer me. Anyone happen to know what is the going rate in San Francisco? I think the range is more like between 17-20/hr. If I take the job, he should expect me to leave once I get a better paying job although I do want to stay in a single firm until I get my license.
Max, look at the column of links at the top left side of the screen. Click the one that says "salary poll", and browse until you find stuff that is close to your basic criteria, to get an idea of what you should expect.
also try consulting inside arch and see if the firm is there.
if you want to work for this firm badly enough and feel you can live on that wage, go for it. if you're feeling a bit weary of the pay, i'd start to consider it long and hard. also, you need to consider what benefits that they're willing to provide in addition to the wage. i got offered a steady 30 which was a bit low but i took it as the firm has a $500 stipend for any books, classes, drawing materials etc., good health and dental, etc. (in LA)
the thing is, you can't take a job once you turn it down. but you can always leave (though you don't want to burn your bridges)...
also, did they give you a formal offer or did they just say "we think you're the guy, we'll be in touch"? cause that sounds a bit sketch to me.
to A and melivt: an easier way to compute yearly income based on hourly rate is to just multiply the dollars per hour by 2, and add three zeros. in this case, $14/hr. = roughly $28,000 per year. it just uses 50 for the number of weeks in a year for the sake of estimation.
The guy only told me I am probably the person that more fit his firm. No confirm offer yet. That's why I am seeking advice here in case I do get an official offer.
Max - how long have you been job searching? the SF arch market is gradually picking up, and so i bet you can get a better offer than $14/hr.
Any good tips on negotiating?
Say that you were calculating your basic cost of living and say that it seems that the salary might not cover this. You're very interested and excited about working at said firm and would just like a wage so that you're not constantly worried about making rent so you can fully dedicate your efforts toward your work. You have experience working and based on that you should be worth more as you have more experience and education now.
Don't seem like you're desperate to get the job and if a tactful opportunity arises, don't be afraid to throw out the names of other firms you are also looking at.
Show there are clearly legitimate reasons why you should be paid more.
salary.com has a salary guideline -- for recent grads, the 25th percentile is about 33k and the 75th percentile makes something around 44k. you might want to aim for around 40k base.
Or if you really like the place, go lower and ask for a reevaluation after working a few months -- confirm a performance review for a specific date.
But i know it's typical for very small firms give recent grads 35k-37k starting out in SF -- but also, these are recent undergrads.
Don't undervalue yourself!
If you're looking only for experience & this job will give you a tremendous boost in the future. Is there a good chance of you advancing quickly? If so, take it.
However, $14/hr? You invested all that time & money to get an MArch for $14/hr? You could've started at a non-college job, say the USPS, or UPS, for that the time you started Arch school. Today you'd be almost vested in their 401-K, getting benefits & have advanced enough to be making a decent, albeit not rich, living.
Don't let these (jerks) firms get away with that. You don't know what kind of fees they get, but I gurantee you, $14/hr is a tiny fraction of it. You may also wat to check out what the interviewer is driving.
I know we're all in Architecture mostly forthe experience, or rather, the process. But come on! We Archiects will never fully respect ourselves if we keep taking krap like that.
I would WALK.
If you're looking only for experience & this job will give you a tremendous boost in the future. Is there a good chance of you advancing quickly? If so, take it.
However, $14/hr? You invested all that time & money to get an MArch for $14/hr? You could've started at a non-college job, say the USPS, or UPS, for that the time you started Arch school. Today you'd be almost vested in their 401-K, getting benefits & have advanced enough to be making a decent, albeit not rich, living.
Don't let these (jerks) firms get away with that. You don't know what kind of fees they get, but I gurantee you, $14/hr is a tiny fraction of it. You may also wat to check out what the interviewer is driving.
I know we're all in Architecture mostly forthe experience, or rather, the process. But come on! We Archiects will never fully respect ourselves if we keep taking krap like that.
I would WALK.
Sorry, for the multiple posts.
BTW, this is a job in San Francisco? Geesh, those already established in cities like that really know how to (as was said) rip-you-off.
Go do yourself a favor. I know SF is an incredible city, but try this. Look for work in a place that might be your 2nd choice, say Las Vegas, Miami, or Atlanta - lots going on in those places + even w/ recent spikes in housing, the cost of living is still a fraction of SF, LA, or NYC. Work there
for the time it takes you to get your IDP out of the way, save as much as you can, get vested in profit-sharing, 401K, get benefits, etc.
Relative to waht you'd get in SF, you'd be making about $30-$50/HR.
The real hard part, though, is to leave the Bay area.
J:
An associate at my old firm told me an architecture firm can reasonably afford to pay you up to 1/2.5 times what you bill out at. So if your position bills out at $45, that firm can reasonably afford to pay you $18/hr.
commenting on pollen's point: we get billed out at 4-5 times what we get paid or more. but I at least make over $15 an hour.
honestly, this'll blow your mind: an intern here is "in charge" of a 10 mil building, if our fee is was a modest 5% that's a 500k fee. Assuming the intern (or various lesser paid individuals) bill 80% of those hours, that's 400k, which at said intern's current salary would take over 11 years to earn. funny how numbers work like that.
you should not take that job, they are looking for a sucker, don't let it be you. it's sad that they WILL find someone who will take it.
you could try to negotiate a higher salary if you want the job. given the location, you shouldn't be getting less than 36k a year, which is about $17.30/hr. my brother is head resident in SF and that's what he makes (another low paid over educated soul) and he doesn't have any leftover cash after expenses. you have to think about saving for retirement, paying for exams and study materials, school loans etc! you don't want to be eating ramen sitting under that nicely framed master's degree do you?
I've heard grocery store workers even make $18/hr (union) in california. can anyone confirm?
whose position bills out at $45/hr? is that reasonable?
"The real hard part, though, is to leave the Bay area."
yep, it took me awhile to come to the decision. while seattle is not san fran, i'm happy with my decision and the differences that seattle offers.
Strawbeary- I was billed out as $40/hr at my very first internship. Your firm makes bank off of your work.
yes, there are unionized grocery workers in the Bay Area who make more than entry-level architects. it's actually pretty competitive to get a job at a place like berkeley bowl.
Yet $18/hr before tax is still meager when you live in a place where to get a "standard" of living you need to make at least 50k a year.
rationalist: our interns get billed out at $70-95 an hour. i think i'm getting billed out at 80 or 85 myself. i don't know that any of us make over $20/hr. one got a bonus once, don't know how much.
wait, where do you live again?
midwest, small city
ah, ok. makes sense then. I'm in LA, so we start our first full-time jobs in the $20/hr range, is why I was wondering.
PUSH THE ISSUE OF COST OF LIVING....I did it and it worked. most bosses like to think that they are fair, even if they're not, and leveraging "cost of living" against their offer will probably work better than saying "i'm worth more".
DavidGray, Sorry to sound like this, please forgive me: That might get the kid $15, or $16/hr.
I wouldnt unless the work was really compelling. I got paid more as an intern during school. With cost of living in the bay area I dont see how you could pay rent. Would probably make more working retail managment, you have a degree, and doing pro bono for an organization firm you admired to get your foot in the door. I'm sure it varies but if your getting hourly pay your employer is usually billing your time out at 3-4 times that.
Doh! lack of an edit button, this was in San Diego wich is also supposed to be the lowest paying city in California for architects.
I suspected SD being low but not considered the lowest. And the cost of living is so high right now.
When I lived in SD (7 yrs ago), the most I made was $13/hr with about 4 yrs experience under my belt. So I agree with the rest, $14/hr is too low. Make the calcs (use the $/hr x 40 hrs x 50 weeks) and see what you really need. I assume you may have outstanding credit card bills you want to pay off, student loans, etc. above and beyond food, rent and entertainment. And in a city like SF, consider 30% of your income goes to rent (unless you are lucky). Also, talk about benefits, such as bonuses, insurance, etc. I work in the corporate world and it's automatic. I don't know how smaller firms deal with it. Good luck!
when i graduate i won't accept anything less than $250000 a year, with no less than 53 weeks paid vacation a year... now THAT'S not undervaluing yourself. :)
Now that's what I'm talkin' about!
I have another interview earlier next week with a firm that have high score at insidearch.com. Hopefully I got better luck this time.
Also, I am living with my parents in the city, so no hurry to scrap cash for rent yet. However, the cost of living is very high here. It's good that I dont go out much. :P
From ManagemenrDesign.com, had one employer use this as a levering tool once, they produce a large publication with staff descriptions avg. wages increases and so forth. Too bad he hadnt run the nimber himself, worked out to he should have been paying me more. The look on his face when i showed him the math was priceless.
Strawbeary: first of all, anyone in your firm who isn't billable - in part or whole - is being "carried" in project fees. For instance, if your principals spend much of their time on marketing, or if you have a receptionist, or accountant, or tech guru, etc. - all of those people are paid from the project fees.
Second: whatever the intern's salary is, the firm actually spends at least 25% more on this employee by the time they pay the employer's share of taxes, unemployment insurance, worker's comp payments, benefits, etc.
Third: nobody is 100% billable. Any time they spend on vacation, sick days, cleaning up their desk, all has to be paid for by the project fees.
Fourth: usually the firm's fee includes all of the budgeted fees for any consultants that the firm uses.
Fifth: the firm obviously has other expenses, ranging from multiple types of insurance to utilities and software...
US firms average 8.5% profit (this is from recent AIA literature.) Calculating a project fee in terms of how many years it could pay an intern's hourly rate is not really the full story.
Excuse me but since when did architecture graduates become so salary-based in their thinking? You guys sound like a bunch of corporate wannabes whiners, with all this about pay, benefits and cost of living right out of school?
Anyone who is driven by design (i.e. anyone who made it through a strong arch. program) and is right out of school would hopefully try to work at least a year for someone whose work truly moves/inspires you --whatever it takes financially (i.e. being poor)-- before caving in to the sad "professionalism" behind most of this discussion. At least that was the predominant attitude when the 25-30% of us made it to graduation at the design-intensive boot camp of an architecture school I went to.
This does not mean I advocate the lack of compensation our profession has endured for so long. On the other hand this is clearly not a field to enter for the pay.
When the poster asked if he should work at said firm, the response would hopefully be: who are KD Architects, what is the nature of their work and is that where you want to begin your exeprience as an architect?
If the concerns voiced in this discussion are the main ones guiding job seeking for young grads today, its a sad day for architecture.
self efficacy should be as important to architecture graduates as anyone else.
self efficacy, schmelf efficacy! I still say work for someone whose work you admire/respect at some point (probably out of school), at whatever cost, before you start thinking primarily about being comfortable.
At one well-nown firm I was at, an intern slept in the office, drove a beater truck and ate cans of beans to be there -- I know that is extreme, but he then went into teaching, went back to school (grad) where his thesis received widespread recognition, which opened all kinds of doors/possibilities. It was I believe the dedication and intensity he brought to that first job that pushed him to excell in anything he pursued.
both hands
some people have financial responsibilities, while other do not...you seem to not have any...but please respect the need for money for people who have such responsibilities.
when most people enter architecture school at the age of say 20-21 they are not aware that architecture pays like shit, who thinks of money at that age? but being paid 14$ an hour in a city like SF sucks - that too after a masters degree from a very good school.
so, all in all, if you are living out of a trust fund, or have made enough money that you dont need anymore, write me a check, will you???
and why the hell should someone not get paid good money (as you suggest in your post) in the first year of their work life??? say that to management graduates, even other design professionals and see the expression on their faces.
Bothands,
Contrary to popular opinion, poverty is not neccesarily conducive to intensity or passion, nor is it a symbol of morality.
The trouble is that architects simply do not get paid what they are worth. Principals dont get the right fees, they dont pass it on fairly, the charge out rates and wages dont correlate. I was taught that you charge 150% of an hourly rage for a call out rate, which accounts for your expenses and a profit.
My first job, I asked for between $20-25, I was offered $20/h and I took it. It wasnt until I saw the bills that I realised that I was being charged out at $85/h. Not only that, but about 8 months into the job I found out that I was the highest paid staff member there after the licensed architects, who got $25/h and $29/h respectively. We got a new intern and he got $12/h. The principle, doing no architectural work whatsoever, billed at $120/h. [This is all in NZ dollars]. There was no equity.
After 5.5 years of study, and 2.5 years of work, I am only now getting used to the idea of not being poor. I know what its like to be poor. I was so poor during my study, that for my end of degree project, I spent only $40 on printing and laminating my work [It didnt stop me getting 2nd highest mark of the year].
I'm not saying we should be paid in gold bullion, but certainly in the top professional tier. In New Zealand, the average wage for an architect, across all ages and experience is about $67,000.
I've never lived in the States, but I would think that $14 an hour is too low. But, sometimes you have to take what you can get, which is a shame.
$14/hour is disappointing.
but having said that, $14/hour and working through IDP is still better than $0/hour and stagnating while sitting on your couch. basically in this profession you're not going to make any money until you are an owner or partner, at which point you will finally have some control over the profitability of your firm. in the meantime your goal should be to get licensed. so if they offer, try to negotiate, maybe you can squeeze a couple of extra dollars out of them. i'd probably take the job and continue to look for something better.
it's worth keeping in mind that this profession is a constant weeding out process and the first job is a critical juncture in that process. a whole bunch of kids have fresh degrees right now but how many are going to make the sacrifice to stick around for peanuts when they could make more money elsewhere? it does get better after you have worked for a little while. i have been surprised at how much more receptive firms are when you actually have a couple years of experience.
taking that into account, i am also inclined to agree with bothands. if you are going to sacrifice and be paid shit, then you might as well do it for a firm/architect that you admire. since you are living at home, maybe you should pass on the kdarchitects. pick the best firm in town (or the one that you would most like to work for) and just show up and offer to help. after about two days of sitting in the lobby i'm sure somebody in the office will put you to work. it may pay even less than $14/hour (maybe nothing at all) but at least you'll still be working through idp and gaining experience with someone you admire. that's still better than sitting on your parent's couch feeling sorry for yourself.
i guess its all really a question of making sacrifices to achieve what you want. make yours strategically and soon enough you'll be doing fine.
Well, thanks for all the advices.
I am not exactly sitting on the couch and hoping for a high paying job. I do help my dad, who has a small importing business, from time to time. I also start giving out tennis lessons to beginners recently.
Well, another interview coming up in a couple of days. Hopefully it will go well. Also, sent out more resumes, hopefully there will be replies as well. But I do agree you that Puddles, if I have to take that 14/hr job, I will just take while looking for something better down the road. Working on my license will be my goal in the next few years. Eventually, though, I would like to go back to school and possibly get a phd in psychology.
sameolddoctor, diabese, j et al,
I do not have money, a trust fund or any other source income other than what comes from a tiny (hardly profitable, but somewhat recognized) experimental practice, plus teaching architecture. I definitely make less from my practice -- as a principal no less -- than many of the salaries mentioned in this discussion. I also ended school with loans like most others. It is through teaching alongside practice that I survive (barely). If you all think its arrogance on my part, fine. But is is certainly not a matter of 'morality', I am one certainly not one of the more "moral" people I know (that is as much as I think I know myself). I prefer to think of my stance as a commitment to design as a challenge the status quo, the corporate tendencies and the general mediocrity of architectural practice in this country.
And thanks puddles for a least aknowledging some of the merits of such a stance.
j
"working as a professional" and "professionalism" are two different things
all that being said, there is no way i would say k+d architects is a design oriented firm i'd be willing to earn such meager wages working for, especially in s.f. in europe, i know plenty of people fresh out of school that were able to work for great firms and not get paid a lot. but they have a society that fosters that-at least many times better than ours does. i view a firm not willing to pay a decent wage as one that truly doesn't respect
a. the profession
b. the prospective applicant
and isn't worth my time. no matter how anyone tries to justify it. if they really respected the applicant, and could tell by his work that he (or she) would make a strong employee, why not make it worth their while? i understand grinding it out and having hardship in the beginning-proving your worth. but to bust out of school with a master's, which is supposed to infer some level of intelligence and skill, how can the profession turn it's back and blatantly disregard them? see, the way i see it, principles view them as cheap labor, and so can pay them as little as they want. good work with good firms is scarce, it's a seller's market. and those looking for work (the buyers) get screwed. perhaps this discussion is more about there being too many job applicants for too few jobs? i don't know. teachers get screwed financially as well, which i never understood. are our values just completely wrong?
hmmm... save everyone from dying (except those possibly guilty of a crime) and then not let those responsible for raising/babysitting our kids to barely get by financially. oy. it's been a long day. sorry for the rant.
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